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Stanislaus B.
The Shire
Jun 20 2007, 4:41pm
Views: 3001
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I think that no-one here is opposed to Tolkien's style simply because it is different from the easy and comfortable style of modern bestsellers. The question is whether it is "imposed... for appearance's sake", "unnecessary ornament, added to give a bit of the flavour of the ancient world without saying anything new or different about it" or "the result of an attempt to express something new and inexpressible in any other way." I must first say that I don't agree with this Kantian enmity towards ornaments. The book is an unnecessary ornament by itself, and for saying something new about ancient world, a history book would be more appropriate. I personally think that in book it is the appearance that counts, and so adding something for appearance's sake is the only good motivation. But we must still ask whether this appearance is good or bad, and what makes it so. I would say that the style of speaking is the style of thinking. Turin is not a modern man. Were he one, he would be incomprehensible. He must therefore speak as he thinks, if he is to be understood at all. As for the question whether this saga-like style add something to the tale, I would suggest an experiment. Some interesting fragment be written in a modern style and compared to the original. This way we would see whether the "archaic" style makes any difference. I have found an interesting opinion on this topic in a blog: http://superversive.livejournal.com/#entry_49730 A critic, Tom Deveson of the Times, writes: "Tolkien endorses this equation of archaism with beauty, but doesn’t show why it is more desirable to write “dwelt” than “lived”, to describe a sword that “would cleave all earth-dolven iron” or to have people say, “Await me here until haply I return.” The blogger comments: "The sentence Mr. Deveson objects to is as dry as ship’s biscuit. If you take it apart, and put it back together in purely modern English, it means: ‘Wait for me here until I come back — if that ever happens.’ That takes twelve words to Tolkien’s seven. Morwen’s almost parenthetical use of haply expresses all the fatality of her decision and the fatalism of her outlook, and does it in a way that no other single English word can match. She is fey, desperate, and almost hopeless, and Tolkien shows us the extremity of her plight without a word of narrative." As to why the style of Childern of Hurin is different from the style of the Lord of the Rings - the style should fit the story. The difference between plots is the same. Incidentally, E. R. Eddison, one of the best stylist of English, responded to the criticism of his style as follows: ‘The style of the book is not a mannerism born of caprice or of perverse affectation, but the scent & breath & life of the whole thing... I look upon it as a discovery: a place of prospect, if you like, from which I can look and see those things I most desire to see.... I feel just as if, after you & I had admired, say, the English Lakes together, you were to say: “It’s all very pretty, but how much better if you could simplify these hills: cut them down to an average height of 200 ft or so and fit them out with the popular, such as tea houses & bandstands on the top of each.... ” When restraint hardens into repression you get not strength but vacuity.’ http://www.ereddison.com/criticism.html (Heroic Hereafters by Jonathan Preece)
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**CoH Discussion** I. The Childhood of Túrin: 1. Ancestry
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squire
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Jun 18 2007, 12:05pm
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begats be boring
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a.s.
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Jun 18 2007, 12:21pm
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As usual, you Prepared!
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Curious
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Jun 18 2007, 4:27pm
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not a big fan of the opening
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Menelwyn
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Jun 18 2007, 6:17pm
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Or you could have the Gaffer
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Curious
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Jun 18 2007, 7:38pm
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For me, a major flaw
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Aunt Dora Baggins
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Jun 18 2007, 7:35pm
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Seriously, I recently
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Curious
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Jun 18 2007, 7:48pm
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I saw that post and thought it was a great idea.//
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Aunt Dora Baggins
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Jun 18 2007, 7:52pm
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Doesn't LotR give its ending away? //
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 23 2007, 4:22am
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All these names and thumbnail sketches
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Curious
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Jun 18 2007, 11:40pm
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Húrin, Túrin, Durin.
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 23 2007, 4:32am
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The rest of my reply.
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Curious
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Jun 19 2007, 11:27am
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Not quite a throwaway line.
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 19 2007, 12:56pm
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Childer of Hurin as a saga
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Stanislaus B.
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Jun 19 2007, 5:17pm
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Yes, Beowulf starts out in a similar vein.//
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Curious
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Jun 19 2007, 7:03pm
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But did original listeners of Njal's Saga...
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 23 2007, 4:40am
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untimely deaths
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Wynnie
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Jun 19 2007, 12:44pm
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Saga style, plus a question
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Modtheow
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Jun 20 2007, 2:26am
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An answer
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FarFromHome
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Jun 20 2007, 7:01am
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What I like about it in LotR
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Curious
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Jun 20 2007, 12:19pm
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I enjoy the archaisms in LotR too
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FarFromHome
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Jun 20 2007, 2:23pm
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CoH suffers for having multiple styles.
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 20 2007, 3:17pm
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Still not satisfied
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Modtheow
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Jun 20 2007, 4:07pm
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"As for the Bears, they throve and multiplied..."
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 23 2007, 5:30am
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But the first chapter...
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 20 2007, 5:02pm
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Not so difficult words?
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Stanislaus B.
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Jun 20 2007, 5:27pm
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I don't think it's about comprehension
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FarFromHome
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Jun 20 2007, 6:01pm
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The words aren't difficult.
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 20 2007, 6:41pm
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Not difficult, by archaic
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Stanislaus B.
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Jun 20 2007, 6:56pm
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"easy and comfortable" vs "engaging"
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squire
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Jun 20 2007, 7:28pm
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Yes, there are two different issues here.
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Curious
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Jun 22 2007, 2:09pm
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"Dwelt" for "lived".
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 23 2007, 5:45am
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Well, Eco is a very interesting writer
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FarFromHome
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Jun 20 2007, 7:40pm
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"written to please himself"?
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 23 2007, 5:59am
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I've just been reading through
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FarFromHome
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Jun 20 2007, 5:50pm
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Some more "over-written" authors
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Stanislaus B.
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Jun 20 2007, 6:09pm
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Tom Shippey uses a similar argument.
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 20 2007, 6:45pm
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Tolkien's style
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Stanislaus B.
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Jun 20 2007, 4:41pm
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Some really good comments at that link!
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 20 2007, 5:26pm
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*mods up* thanks for that blog link
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Wynnie
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Jun 20 2007, 6:28pm
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The Worm Hour-oh-bore-us
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a.s.
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Jun 20 2007, 8:34pm
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Childer of Hurin are a saga
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Stanislaus B.
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Jun 20 2007, 9:27pm
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Why don't people write sagas anymore?
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 20 2007, 9:44pm
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yes, but the question is
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a.s.
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Jun 20 2007, 11:04pm
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terse and impersonal = saga
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Modtheow
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Jun 21 2007, 3:03am
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There's subject-matter and then there's style
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FarFromHome
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Jun 21 2007, 9:15am
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The flowers of the wild, the Tigers of Detroit.
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 21 2007, 5:49pm
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Yes, I thought about that
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FarFromHome
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Jun 21 2007, 8:11pm
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Of course we are.
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Curious
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Jun 21 2007, 8:52pm
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You can't write bad...
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 21 2007, 8:55pm
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But if the style is meant
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FarFromHome
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Jun 21 2007, 9:21pm
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It's worse than dialect.
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Curious
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Jun 21 2007, 10:17pm
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Tolkien liked to hone his writing style by reading it out loud
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squire
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Jun 21 2007, 10:27pm
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At least he never wrote an epic
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Curious
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Jun 22 2007, 12:12am
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"The flowers of the wild" tells/describes a lot more
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Daughter of Nienna
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Jun 23 2007, 4:27am
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It's a dandy line. //
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 23 2007, 4:33am
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I find it rather prim, Rose. //
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a.s.
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Jun 23 2007, 2:31pm
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hmmm, well. yes.
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a.s.
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Jun 21 2007, 11:01am
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"Much have I seen, and much have I done."
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 21 2007, 11:59am
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ah, yes!
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Modtheow
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Jun 21 2007, 1:23pm
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Stilted = artificial
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Curious
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Jun 21 2007, 7:24pm
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natural and authentic
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Modtheow
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Jun 22 2007, 2:35am
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Well, here's how the
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Curious
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Jun 22 2007, 3:06am
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Now that's very interesting to hear
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FarFromHome
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Jun 22 2007, 8:19am
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Tolkien's choices
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Modtheow
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Jun 25 2007, 12:47am
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What does bad saga-style writing look like?
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 23 2007, 6:15am
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I must disagree with the assumption
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Stanislaus B.
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Jun 23 2007, 9:58am
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The "simplest" language?
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 23 2007, 5:31pm
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the easiest, most familiar
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Modtheow
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Jun 23 2007, 6:07pm
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No, I disagree.
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Curious
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Jun 24 2007, 7:33pm
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Elsewhere...
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 24 2007, 9:20pm
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Robert Graves did a great job
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Curious
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Jun 24 2007, 9:51pm
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Letter #171.
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 25 2007, 1:27am
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Boy, compared to The Silmarillion
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Curious
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Jun 25 2007, 11:16am
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LotR's narrator...
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 25 2007, 2:07pm
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It didn't hit me in the face
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Curious
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Jun 25 2007, 2:22pm
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I didn't make that assumption.
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Curious
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Jun 24 2007, 7:24pm
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well....I said I didn't like it, not that it's inferior per se
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a.s.
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Jun 23 2007, 2:28pm
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Same difference. Sort of.
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 23 2007, 5:37pm
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do we have a shared subjectivity?
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Daughter of Nienna
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Jun 23 2007, 8:27pm
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nicely said!
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Wynnie
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Jun 23 2007, 9:42pm
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Please do!
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Daughter of Nienna
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Jun 23 2007, 10:27pm
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I would abandon that opening entirely.
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Curious
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Jun 24 2007, 8:22pm
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I get that and
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Daughter of Nienna
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Jun 25 2007, 5:29pm
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And it is overwhelming without real purpose.
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Curious
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Jun 25 2007, 5:54pm
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Do you like other fantasies?
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Curious
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Jun 24 2007, 8:19pm
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I never called
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Daughter of Nienna
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Jun 25 2007, 7:26pm
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Unnecessary.
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 25 2007, 7:52pm
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hold up!!
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a.s.
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Jun 25 2007, 9:40pm
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LOL !
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 25 2007, 9:50pm
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Your Majesty!
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Modtheow
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Jun 26 2007, 12:20am
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ROTHFL
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Daughter of Nienna
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Jun 26 2007, 12:43am
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Let me rephrase.
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Curious
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Jun 26 2007, 2:03am
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Proper beginning of discussion
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Stanislaus B.
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Jun 26 2007, 3:38pm
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"consciously selected style and language"
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 26 2007, 4:40pm
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After all this discussion, though,
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Curious
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Jun 26 2007, 4:47pm
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I'm glad you wrote that about Paradise Lost.
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GaladrielTX
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Jun 26 2007, 5:35pm
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A poor phrase.
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 24 2007, 9:32pm
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Holy Eru! What are we arguing about, again? :-)
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a.s.
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Jun 23 2007, 11:51pm
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Bows to point. Points to bow.
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 24 2007, 12:48am
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Sort of like
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Modtheow
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Jun 23 2007, 5:57pm
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Some Tolkienists like to suppose...
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 23 2007, 6:05pm
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a medievalist strategy
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Modtheow
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Jun 23 2007, 6:31pm
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Fun!
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 23 2007, 6:46pm
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The fate of modern literature
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Stanislaus B.
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Jun 23 2007, 8:06pm
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Many factors influence which literature survives and which literature does not.
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Curious
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Jun 24 2007, 8:14pm
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I hate to be a snob, and
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Curious
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Jun 24 2007, 7:43pm
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Thank-you
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Daughter of Nienna
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Jun 23 2007, 5:42am
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Tolkien's linguistic skills
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Curious
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Jun 23 2007, 1:07pm
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"they say"
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 24 2007, 5:19am
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More good comments by Simon...
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 22 2007, 5:29am
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Fascinating! and depressing
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squire
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Jun 22 2007, 10:34am
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Few other series are multivolume novels.
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Curious
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Jun 22 2007, 1:53pm
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I see
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Wynnie
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Jun 22 2007, 12:17pm
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...said the blind man
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dna
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Jun 22 2007, 8:52pm
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I was cheap
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Wynnie
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Jun 22 2007, 10:06pm
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and easy
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dna
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Jun 23 2007, 12:22pm
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Stop that!
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Wynnie
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Jun 23 2007, 2:13pm
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sorry, but...
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dna
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Jun 23 2007, 10:17pm
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oh, dear
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Wynnie
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Jun 23 2007, 10:48pm
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my
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dna
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Jun 24 2007, 3:03pm
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"geeky"
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Wynnie
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Jun 24 2007, 4:24pm
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Wynnie is right...
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 23 2007, 5:56pm
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story-tellers of old
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Daughter of Nienna
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Jun 22 2007, 7:46am
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Prose: Tolkien vs. Lawrence, Wolfe, Farrell, Fitzgerald.
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 23 2007, 3:52am
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laughter & song will be short-lived in this tale
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Daughter of Nienna
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Jun 22 2007, 7:30am
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Morwen and Rian
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Morwen
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Jun 28 2007, 12:55am
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yes, I ageree
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Daughter of Nienna
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Jun 28 2007, 5:47am
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Morwen the war-mongering huntress?
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 23 2007, 7:08am
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Hador, Morwen, Urwen, Hurin
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dna
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Jun 23 2007, 1:29pm
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How can Húrin be “fiery in mood” and yet have the “fire in him burn steadily”
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Stanislaus B.
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Jun 23 2007, 2:07pm
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Where are Marach, Malach, Magor and Hathol?
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 23 2007, 5:48pm
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my mistake
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dna
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Jun 23 2007, 9:32pm
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Huor is an easier target for orcish archers.
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 24 2007, 9:45pm
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late as usual
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Saelind
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Jun 28 2007, 4:01am
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