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All these names and thumbnail sketches

Curious
Half-elven

Jun 18 2007, 11:40pm

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All these names and thumbnail sketches [In reply to]	Can't Post

of the stories and personalities that went with the names do give the story a sense of depth, the kind of depth found in myths and legends about people whose ancestors appear in other myths and legends. However we know that when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit and LotR he used different ways to introduce such facts. He paired down the discussion of ancestry to mother and father (Bilbo's in The Hobbit and Frodo's in LotR), and put much more information in the appendices. In addition in LotR he had The Gaffer discuss Frodo's ancestry and upbringing, and incidentally reveal Sam's ancestry and upbringing as well (although there is no mention of Sam's mother). In Children of Hurin Tolkien much more consciously adopted the tone of an ancient text from the beginning. Whether he would have retained that beginning if he had actually published the tale is unknown and unknowable.

What I like about it is Tolkien's habit of giving us a glimpse of all these people who are briefly named. It reminds me of the role call when various subjects of Gondor entered Minas Tirith, and we learned a little about their various leaders. It also reminds me of Tolkien's style in the appendices to LotR. All these brief descriptions give some life to a dry family tree. The way Tolkien describes them, I can see all these people passing before my eyes, much as Aragorn's ancestors pass before the hobbits' eyes in the House of Bombadil.

Why then is Hurin short and Huor tall? Tolkien tended to use height as a metaphor. Hurin does not remind me of a short hobbit at all, but he does remind me of dwarves, and so does his son Turin, while Huor and Tuor remind me of tall elves.

Hurin is much shorter than his brother Huor, but Hurin is "strong in body and fiery of mood" with a "great endurance of will." Hurin was slower than Huor over a short course, but a better marathon runner. Tolkien's dwarves are generally strong of body and fiery of mood with great endurance of will, and, although they are not swift, dwarves like to brag of their endurance. Although he goes to war on a horse with a sword, Hurin will use a borrowed battle-axe in his last stand against Morgoth's army. And Turin, who has a stormy relationship with most elves, will develop a close friendship with Mim the petty dwarf. Tuor, on the other hand, is the tallest of the Edain, marries an elf, and may even have become an elf.

On the other hand, perhaps Tolkien is just giving Hurin and Huor distinctive personalities like he does for all the people in the family tree, including many who are not important to this tale. So Hurin is the short but strong one and Huor is the tall and swift one. There you are.

Morwen may have been taller than Hurin, but that is not unheard of. Furthermore although Hurin was short compared to Huor and his other close kin, that doesn't mean he was short compared to most men. On his father's side, Hurin came from a family of giants.

Okay, now to any questions I have not addressed:

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A. Many reviewers of The Children of Hurin have criticized this �genealogical� opening, as being both dull and confusing. Do you agree? How else, or where else, might the story have started, within the confines of Tolkien�s text? How important is �readability� to the Tolkiens, father and son?

What reviewers do you have in mind? The opening is more typical of ancient tales than modern ones, but I don't find it dull. If we are expected to remember all these names I might get confused, but I think it quickly becomes apparent that we are not expected to remember anyone except Turin and his parents. However I would have started the story in the middle somewhere, and brought out the backstory later. The story takes a long time to get going, and maintaining suspense is a problem.

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B. How can H�rin be �fiery in mood� and yet have the �fire in him burn steadily�?

He's manic at times, but never depressive. Like the Energizer Bunny, he just keeps going. The flame isn't always on high, but it is always present.

I must go. I'll get to the other questions later.

(This post was edited by Curious on Jun 18 2007, 11:41pm)

Subject	User	Time
CoH Discussion I. The Childhood of T�rin: 1. Ancestry	squire	Jun 18 2007, 12:05pm
begats be boring	a.s.	Jun 18 2007, 12:21pm
As usual, you Prepared!	Curious	Jun 18 2007, 4:27pm
not a big fan of the opening	Menelwyn	Jun 18 2007, 6:17pm
Or you could have the Gaffer	Curious	Jun 18 2007, 7:38pm
For me, a major flaw	Aunt Dora Baggins	Jun 18 2007, 7:35pm
Seriously, I recently	Curious	Jun 18 2007, 7:48pm
I saw that post and thought it was a great idea.//	Aunt Dora Baggins	Jun 18 2007, 7:52pm
Doesn't LotR give its ending away? //	N.E. Brigand	Jun 23 2007, 4:22am
All these names and thumbnail sketches	Curious	Jun 18 2007, 11:40pm
H�rin, T�rin, Durin.	N.E. Brigand	Jun 23 2007, 4:32am
The rest of my reply.	Curious	Jun 19 2007, 11:27am
Not quite a throwaway line.	N.E. Brigand	Jun 19 2007, 12:56pm
Childer of Hurin as a saga	Stanislaus B.	Jun 19 2007, 5:17pm
Yes, Beowulf starts out in a similar vein.//	Curious	Jun 19 2007, 7:03pm
But did original listeners of Njal's Saga...	N.E. Brigand	Jun 23 2007, 4:40am
untimely deaths	Wynnie	Jun 19 2007, 12:44pm
Saga style, plus a question	Modtheow	Jun 20 2007, 2:26am
An answer	FarFromHome	Jun 20 2007, 7:01am
What I like about it in LotR	Curious	Jun 20 2007, 12:19pm
I enjoy the archaisms in LotR too	FarFromHome	Jun 20 2007, 2:23pm
CoH suffers for having multiple styles.	N.E. Brigand	Jun 20 2007, 3:17pm
Still not satisfied	Modtheow	Jun 20 2007, 4:07pm
"As for the Bears, they throve and multiplied..."	N.E. Brigand	Jun 23 2007, 5:30am
But the first chapter...	N.E. Brigand	Jun 20 2007, 5:02pm
Not so difficult words?	Stanislaus B.	Jun 20 2007, 5:27pm
I don't think it's about comprehension	FarFromHome	Jun 20 2007, 6:01pm
The words aren't difficult.	N.E. Brigand	Jun 20 2007, 6:41pm
Not difficult, by archaic	Stanislaus B.	Jun 20 2007, 6:56pm
"easy and comfortable" vs "engaging"	squire	Jun 20 2007, 7:28pm
Yes, there are two different issues here.	Curious	Jun 22 2007, 2:09pm
"Dwelt" for "lived".	N.E. Brigand	Jun 23 2007, 5:45am
Well, Eco is a very interesting writer	FarFromHome	Jun 20 2007, 7:40pm
"written to please himself"?	N.E. Brigand	Jun 23 2007, 5:59am
I've just been reading through	FarFromHome	Jun 20 2007, 5:50pm
Some more "over-written" authors	Stanislaus B.	Jun 20 2007, 6:09pm
Tom Shippey uses a similar argument.	N.E. Brigand	Jun 20 2007, 6:45pm
Tolkien's style	Stanislaus B.	Jun 20 2007, 4:41pm
Some really good comments at that link!	N.E. Brigand	Jun 20 2007, 5:26pm
mods up thanks for that blog link	Wynnie	Jun 20 2007, 6:28pm
The Worm Hour-oh-bore-us	a.s.	Jun 20 2007, 8:34pm
Childer of Hurin are a saga	Stanislaus B.	Jun 20 2007, 9:27pm
Why don't people write sagas anymore?	N.E. Brigand	Jun 20 2007, 9:44pm
yes, but the question is	a.s.	Jun 20 2007, 11:04pm
terse and impersonal = saga	Modtheow	Jun 21 2007, 3:03am
There's subject-matter and then there's style	FarFromHome	Jun 21 2007, 9:15am
The flowers of the wild, the Tigers of Detroit.	N.E. Brigand	Jun 21 2007, 5:49pm
Yes, I thought about that	FarFromHome	Jun 21 2007, 8:11pm
Of course we are.	Curious	Jun 21 2007, 8:52pm
You can't write bad...	N.E. Brigand	Jun 21 2007, 8:55pm
But if the style is meant	FarFromHome	Jun 21 2007, 9:21pm
It's worse than dialect.	Curious	Jun 21 2007, 10:17pm
Tolkien liked to hone his writing style by reading it out loud	squire	Jun 21 2007, 10:27pm
At least he never wrote an epic	Curious	Jun 22 2007, 12:12am
"The flowers of the wild" tells/describes a lot more	Daughter of Nienna	Jun 23 2007, 4:27am
It's a dandy line. //	N.E. Brigand	Jun 23 2007, 4:33am
I find it rather prim, Rose. //	a.s.	Jun 23 2007, 2:31pm
hmmm, well. yes.	a.s.	Jun 21 2007, 11:01am
"Much have I seen, and much have I done."	N.E. Brigand	Jun 21 2007, 11:59am
ah, yes!	Modtheow	Jun 21 2007, 1:23pm
Stilted = artificial	Curious	Jun 21 2007, 7:24pm
natural and authentic	Modtheow	Jun 22 2007, 2:35am
Well, here's how the	Curious	Jun 22 2007, 3:06am
Now that's very interesting to hear	FarFromHome	Jun 22 2007, 8:19am
Tolkien's choices	Modtheow	Jun 25 2007, 12:47am
What does bad saga-style writing look like?	N.E. Brigand	Jun 23 2007, 6:15am
I must disagree with the assumption	Stanislaus B.	Jun 23 2007, 9:58am
The "simplest" language?	N.E. Brigand	Jun 23 2007, 5:31pm
the easiest, most familiar	Modtheow	Jun 23 2007, 6:07pm
No, I disagree.	Curious	Jun 24 2007, 7:33pm
Elsewhere...	N.E. Brigand	Jun 24 2007, 9:20pm
Robert Graves did a great job	Curious	Jun 24 2007, 9:51pm
Letter #171.	N.E. Brigand	Jun 25 2007, 1:27am
Boy, compared to The Silmarillion	Curious	Jun 25 2007, 11:16am
LotR's narrator...	N.E. Brigand	Jun 25 2007, 2:07pm
It didn't hit me in the face	Curious	Jun 25 2007, 2:22pm
I didn't make that assumption.	Curious	Jun 24 2007, 7:24pm
well....I said I didn't like it, not that it's inferior per se	a.s.	Jun 23 2007, 2:28pm
Same difference. Sort of.	N.E. Brigand	Jun 23 2007, 5:37pm
do we have a shared subjectivity?	Daughter of Nienna	Jun 23 2007, 8:27pm
nicely said!	Wynnie	Jun 23 2007, 9:42pm
Please do!	Daughter of Nienna	Jun 23 2007, 10:27pm
I would abandon that opening entirely.	Curious	Jun 24 2007, 8:22pm
I get that and	Daughter of Nienna	Jun 25 2007, 5:29pm
And it is overwhelming without real purpose.	Curious	Jun 25 2007, 5:54pm
Do you like other fantasies?	Curious	Jun 24 2007, 8:19pm
I never called	Daughter of Nienna	Jun 25 2007, 7:26pm
Unnecessary.	N.E. Brigand	Jun 25 2007, 7:52pm
hold up!!	a.s.	Jun 25 2007, 9:40pm
LOL !	N.E. Brigand	Jun 25 2007, 9:50pm
Your Majesty!	Modtheow	Jun 26 2007, 12:20am
ROTHFL	Daughter of Nienna	Jun 26 2007, 12:43am
Let me rephrase.	Curious	Jun 26 2007, 2:03am
Proper beginning of discussion	Stanislaus B.	Jun 26 2007, 3:38pm
"consciously selected style and language"	N.E. Brigand	Jun 26 2007, 4:40pm
After all this discussion, though,	Curious	Jun 26 2007, 4:47pm
I'm glad you wrote that about Paradise Lost.	GaladrielTX	Jun 26 2007, 5:35pm
A poor phrase.	N.E. Brigand	Jun 24 2007, 9:32pm
Holy Eru! What are we arguing about, again? :-)	a.s.	Jun 23 2007, 11:51pm
Bows to point. Points to bow.	N.E. Brigand	Jun 24 2007, 12:48am
Sort of like	Modtheow	Jun 23 2007, 5:57pm
Some Tolkienists like to suppose...	N.E. Brigand	Jun 23 2007, 6:05pm
a medievalist strategy	Modtheow	Jun 23 2007, 6:31pm
Fun!	N.E. Brigand	Jun 23 2007, 6:46pm
The fate of modern literature	Stanislaus B.	Jun 23 2007, 8:06pm
Many factors influence which literature survives and which literature does not.	Curious	Jun 24 2007, 8:14pm
I hate to be a snob, and	Curious	Jun 24 2007, 7:43pm
Thank-you	Daughter of Nienna	Jun 23 2007, 5:42am
Tolkien's linguistic skills	Curious	Jun 23 2007, 1:07pm
"they say"	N.E. Brigand	Jun 24 2007, 5:19am
More good comments by Simon...	N.E. Brigand	Jun 22 2007, 5:29am
Fascinating! and depressing	squire	Jun 22 2007, 10:34am
Few other series are multivolume novels.	Curious	Jun 22 2007, 1:53pm
I see	Wynnie	Jun 22 2007, 12:17pm
...said the blind man	dna	Jun 22 2007, 8:52pm
I was cheap	Wynnie	Jun 22 2007, 10:06pm
and easy	dna	Jun 23 2007, 12:22pm
Stop that!	Wynnie	Jun 23 2007, 2:13pm
sorry, but...	dna	Jun 23 2007, 10:17pm
oh, dear	Wynnie	Jun 23 2007, 10:48pm
my	dna	Jun 24 2007, 3:03pm
"geeky"	Wynnie	Jun 24 2007, 4:24pm
Wynnie is right...	N.E. Brigand	Jun 23 2007, 5:56pm
story-tellers of old	Daughter of Nienna	Jun 22 2007, 7:46am
Prose: Tolkien vs. Lawrence, Wolfe, Farrell, Fitzgerald.	N.E. Brigand	Jun 23 2007, 3:52am
laughter & song will be short-lived in this tale	Daughter of Nienna	Jun 22 2007, 7:30am
Morwen and Rian	Morwen	Jun 28 2007, 12:55am
yes, I ageree	Daughter of Nienna	Jun 28 2007, 5:47am
Morwen the war-mongering huntress?	N.E. Brigand	Jun 23 2007, 7:08am
Hador, Morwen, Urwen, Hurin	dna	Jun 23 2007, 1:29pm
How can H�rin be �fiery in mood� and yet have the �fire in him burn steadily�	Stanislaus B.	Jun 23 2007, 2:07pm
Where are Marach, Malach, Magor and Hathol?	N.E. Brigand	Jun 23 2007, 5:48pm
my mistake	dna	Jun 23 2007, 9:32pm
Huor is an easier target for orcish archers.	N.E. Brigand	Jun 24 2007, 9:45pm
late as usual	Saelind	Jun 28 2007, 4:01am

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