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squire
Half-elven
Sep 2 2010, 5:05pm
Views: 2202
Shortcut
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As with the orcs, I was trying to avoid using hobbit-reported dialogue to "convey the Mordor point of view". In his notes "On Translation" in LotR Appendix F, Tolkien reveals that he has actually bowdlerized the Orcs' talk:
their language was actually more degraded and filthy than I have shown it. I do not suppose that any will wish for a closer rendering,
So can we be sure that Pippin, in his horror, gave us the exact phrases and full conversation of his interview? As FarFromHome warns, perhaps Sauron was in fact more understated and polite! Anyway I agree that Sauron's language to Pippin - as given - is pretty banal. But note that the content of the conversation is nevertheless quite evil: Pippin is dehumanized to an "it", and is a "dainty" to be consumed slowly and with pleasure. And Pippin is shown to have been nearly psychologically destroyed just by being in the mental presence of the Dark Lord. Obviously Sauron does not communicate simply with (un)spoken language. So what exactly would "scary" or "diabolical" language be like? This is always a problem with villainy among the upper-crust: it's their deeds, not their speech, that must be evil, or else they wouldn't be upper-crust. Later, of course, via the Morgul-lord and the Mouth of Sauron we do get better, and pretty scary, descriptions of what happens to Sauron's prisoners. I think Tolkien was reluctant to be too detailed about Mordor and Sauron, too soon in the book, since nothing terrifies like the unhindered imagination (as Frodo exclaims to Gildor in the Woody End). Perhaps you could find some examples of Morgoth's dialogue in The Silmarillion that you find scary - and we could compare how he speaks to how Sauron speaks in this instance.
squire online: RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'. Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!" squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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Subject
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User
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Time
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Book I, Chapter 11, “A Knife in the Dark”: Are Black Riders Wimps?
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Curious
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Aug 23 2010, 2:02am
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My own thoughts
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Lord of Magic
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Aug 23 2010, 2:20pm
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Good point about Bombadil talking to ponies!
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Curious
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Aug 23 2010, 4:03pm
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Let me know if you find
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Curious
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Aug 23 2010, 4:17pm
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Horn calls, commerce, and Wimpy Black Riders
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Jerene
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Aug 23 2010, 2:51pm
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Thanks for acknowledging
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Curious
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Aug 23 2010, 4:14pm
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Unanswerable Questions
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Jerene
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Aug 23 2010, 9:26pm
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Not 3.6, but 6 pennies
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sador
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Aug 25 2010, 2:28pm
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Great summary and analysis, Curious
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FarFromHome
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Aug 23 2010, 5:27pm
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Okay, here's a closer analysis of the timing in Buckland.
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Curious
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Aug 23 2010, 6:13pm
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Nazgul as cowards
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Arwen Skywalker
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Aug 23 2010, 7:27pm
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There is an element of ghosts afraid of the light.
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Curious
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Aug 23 2010, 8:32pm
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Gandalf and the High Elves
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FarFromHome
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Aug 23 2010, 10:40pm
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Taking the ring from Frodo
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CuriousG
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Aug 24 2010, 11:56am
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It wouldn't take long
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Curious
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Aug 24 2010, 12:07pm
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Nazgul and fear of fire
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CuriousG
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Aug 24 2010, 12:17pm
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I can explain Minas Tirith.
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Curious
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Aug 24 2010, 12:43pm
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I'm guessing element of surprise
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xy
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Aug 24 2010, 3:31pm
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Good point about the Riders being tired,
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Curious
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Aug 24 2010, 4:33pm
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On the other hand; and, Bombadil and the Siege of Imladris
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CuriousG
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Aug 24 2010, 5:06pm
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Old Man Willow and the Barrow-wights
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Curious
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Aug 24 2010, 5:27pm
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Bombadil and the war...
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Evernight
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Aug 24 2010, 6:25pm
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Could be. Interesting.
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Curious
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Aug 24 2010, 7:00pm
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Excellent point
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CuriousG
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Aug 24 2010, 7:28pm
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Another point
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xy
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Aug 24 2010, 6:39pm
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It's also tricky
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Curious
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Aug 24 2010, 7:06pm
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It's frustrating
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Curious
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Aug 24 2010, 7:23pm
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At the very least
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CuriousG
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Aug 24 2010, 7:34pm
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And maybe Tolkien
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Curious
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Aug 24 2010, 7:55pm
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I think there are hints
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FarFromHome
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Aug 25 2010, 10:35am
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The definitive essay!
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CuriousG
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Aug 25 2010, 2:13pm
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That's not what bothers me
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sador
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Aug 25 2010, 2:26pm
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Wasn't there a prophecy?
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FarFromHome
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Aug 26 2010, 11:37am
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Who issued this prophesy?
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Elizabeth
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Aug 27 2010, 7:18am
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Good question.
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FarFromHome
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Aug 27 2010, 8:21am
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The Riders seemed to open Fatty's gate
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Curious
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Aug 25 2010, 4:32pm
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Thanks, CuriousG!
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FarFromHome
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Aug 26 2010, 11:58am
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A wooden shield
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Curious
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Aug 26 2010, 2:58pm
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The narrator does exactly what you suggest
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Curious
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Aug 25 2010, 3:37pm
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well
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xy
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Aug 26 2010, 5:41pm
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Timelines
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FarFromHome
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Aug 23 2010, 10:18pm
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I agree about the horn
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Curious
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Aug 23 2010, 11:26pm
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Maybe you're right
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FarFromHome
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Aug 24 2010, 9:04am
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Oh, how to explain those Nazgul
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CuriousG
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Aug 23 2010, 7:54pm
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It's also revealing
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Curious
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Aug 23 2010, 10:14pm
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Who were the culprits in the attack in the inn?
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CuriousG
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Aug 23 2010, 7:30pm
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Here's what Strider said:
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Curious
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Aug 23 2010, 8:25pm
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Nazgul or Ferny
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CuriousG
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Aug 24 2010, 12:05pm
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There's also the question
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Curious
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Aug 24 2010, 12:38pm
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Good point
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CuriousG
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Aug 24 2010, 12:48pm
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However, that very night
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sador
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Aug 25 2010, 2:51pm
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Good point.
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Curious
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Aug 25 2010, 4:49pm
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Not Bakshi.
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sador
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Aug 25 2010, 2:47pm
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Your second link doesn't work.
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Curious
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Aug 25 2010, 4:47pm
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Does this one?
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sador
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Aug 27 2010, 11:52am
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If your point is that we can't be sure,
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Curious
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Aug 27 2010, 12:34pm
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Bolsters and other thoughts
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Elizabeth
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Aug 27 2010, 10:08pm
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Comments on the Summary
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sador
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Aug 24 2010, 9:41am
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Frodo: the exceptional hobbit and hero
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CuriousG
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Aug 24 2010, 12:40pm
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Frodo is an exceptional hobbit.
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Curious
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Aug 24 2010, 1:11pm
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Comments on your Analysis
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sador
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Aug 25 2010, 10:53am
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A thought about "Peregrin."
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Curious
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Aug 25 2010, 4:21pm
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Comments on your Analysis - part II
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sador
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Aug 25 2010, 2:15pm
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There are hints
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Curious
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Aug 25 2010, 4:43pm
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Did the Riders know that Frodo would take off the Ring?
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sador
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Aug 25 2010, 7:15pm
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Not nonexistent.
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Curious
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Aug 25 2010, 8:10pm
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"...with timbers burst and lock broken"
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squire
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Aug 25 2010, 6:00pm
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Great point about the Nazgul as police.
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Curious
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Aug 25 2010, 8:01pm
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Inside information
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FarFromHome
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Aug 25 2010, 9:57pm
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There's no fist...
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FarFromHome
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Aug 25 2010, 9:35pm
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Right, no fist mentioned, but how far can you take that?
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squire
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Aug 25 2010, 9:43pm
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Well, I did wonder about the horse...
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FarFromHome
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Aug 25 2010, 10:00pm
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Response the money question
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Hyarmendacil
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Aug 27 2010, 12:54am
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So you think there was money
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Curious
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Aug 27 2010, 2:26am
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Money
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Hyarmendacil
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Aug 27 2010, 3:03am
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It's still a choice
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Curious
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Aug 27 2010, 12:39pm
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"Fact"?
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squire
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Aug 27 2010, 2:49pm
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I'm sorry, the Shire and Bree are not feudal.
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Curious
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Aug 27 2010, 3:17pm
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Stick to your guns!
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squire
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Aug 27 2010, 10:24pm
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Dirty pool!
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Curious
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Aug 27 2010, 11:07pm
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Agreeing with Curious...
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Desicon9
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Aug 27 2010, 11:55pm
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Disagreeing with Curious ...
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Curious
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Aug 28 2010, 12:17am
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If nuttin' can be known, what are we talking fer? LOL!
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Desicon9
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Aug 28 2010, 2:08am
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Arguably,
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Curious
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Aug 28 2010, 3:10am
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The Muster of Rohan
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Elizabeth
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Aug 28 2010, 3:33am
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They didn't spend three days on it
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Curious
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Aug 28 2010, 4:04am
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The Shire and Breeland were not Feudal
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Hyarmendacil
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Aug 29 2010, 9:22pm
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More on Middle Earth economics
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Hyarmendacil
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Aug 29 2010, 8:52pm
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"Don't go there."
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Elizabeth
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Aug 29 2010, 10:24pm
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How One Thing Leads to Another...
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Desicon9
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Aug 30 2010, 1:54pm
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Dangerous indeed
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sador
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Aug 30 2010, 3:01pm
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Curious gender...
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Desicon9
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Aug 30 2010, 5:35pm
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No problem.
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Curious
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Aug 30 2010, 11:47pm
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If I may suggest a roadmap
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squire
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Aug 30 2010, 3:35pm
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Precising definitions; and valid "speculations."
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Desicon9
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Aug 30 2010, 7:28pm
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Hmmmm
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Tim
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Aug 30 2010, 8:28pm
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I wonder if Mordor and its slave colonies
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Curious
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Aug 30 2010, 11:45pm
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The Aztecs were a stretch
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squire
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Aug 31 2010, 12:45am
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I feel quite sure
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Curious
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Aug 31 2010, 1:27am
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Points of view
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FarFromHome
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Sep 2 2010, 9:22am
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Now there's a bit of fan fiction for you.
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Curious
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Sep 2 2010, 12:19pm
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Only Sam
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FarFromHome
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Sep 2 2010, 1:28pm
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Wait...
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squire
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Sep 2 2010, 2:08pm
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It can be depended on
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FarFromHome
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Sep 2 2010, 2:43pm
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I think maybe Squire is concerned with fan fic history revisionism
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Tim
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Sep 2 2010, 2:58pm
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Texts giving Mordor's side of the question
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squire
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Sep 2 2010, 2:03pm
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And Sauron speaking to Pippin in the Palantir
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CuriousG
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Sep 2 2010, 4:23pm
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Yes, for what it's worth.
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squire
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Sep 2 2010, 5:05pm
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Sauron's diction vs. his boss's; who is more menacing?
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CuriousG
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Sep 3 2010, 12:15am
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Sauron speaks like a hobbit!
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Curious
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Sep 3 2010, 12:26am
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It's a function of who's translating.
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Elizabeth
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Sep 3 2010, 12:52am
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Sauron is the only bad guy who speaks Hobbit
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CuriousG
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Sep 4 2010, 9:34pm
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The difference may be...
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Elizabeth
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Sep 4 2010, 9:40pm
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Yes well
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FarFromHome
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Sep 2 2010, 5:43pm
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I think you've hit on it
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Tim
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Sep 2 2010, 5:59pm
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The Ring Spell is Sauron's composition
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squire
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Sep 2 2010, 6:39pm
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I know! ;-)
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FarFromHome
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Sep 2 2010, 8:49pm
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It's possible, I guess
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squire
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Sep 2 2010, 11:35pm
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Ha! And you say you don't like fan fiction!
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Curious
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Sep 2 2010, 11:52pm
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I am
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Tim
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Sep 3 2010, 12:44am
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That's it!
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FarFromHome
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Sep 3 2010, 9:05am
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Celebrimbor heard those lines, didn't he?
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CuriousG
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Sep 2 2010, 7:24pm
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In 'Mount Doom'
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sador
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Sep 2 2010, 7:43pm
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Did Tolkien ever think LOTR economics could be recovered?
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Desicon9
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Aug 31 2010, 1:38am
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Tolkien talks quite a bit about economics in The Hobbit.
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Curious
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Aug 31 2010, 4:19am
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Weak feudalism; more on money; Shire princes
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CuriousG
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Aug 31 2010, 1:34pm
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That's a great insight!
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Curious
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Aug 30 2010, 9:58pm
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Cultures in The Hobbit
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Elizabeth
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Aug 27 2010, 11:24pm
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It's not a matter of inconsistency.
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Curious
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Aug 27 2010, 11:56pm
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