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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
WARNING: Long and Rambling post ahead.

Sunflower
Valinor

Jun 19 2010, 4:15am

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WARNING: Long and Rambling post ahead. [In reply to]	Can't Post

Had to go away for a while, but now that I;m back I want to address first your comment MrCere.

How do you know for certain that WB was not pressuring TH to be filmed in 3D? I'm sorry, but being "quite confident" is not the same as "knowing for sure." TH has no official budget at all, the final budget for the film cannot be determined until after there is an official greenlight. I know, with the scripts (supposedly) in, there must be some idea already, but until after the greenlight is given, there would be an even better idea. And we will not know until then how much money WB is putting up, how much WB is ponying up, and how much if any PJ can or will be asked to contribute (quite a possibilty in this abysmal penny-pinching climate.)
My memory of exact posts is dim, but if Del Toro had anything defenite to say on the subject, I'll bet he posted it no later than early March. If I am wrong and Del Toro posted a statement *after March 1st* that said that TH was DEFENITELY NOT going to be filmed in 3D, then I stand corrected.

However, the number of concrete news stories, and the number of Del Toro's posts, both fell drastically beginning right around March. That is when the Big Silence began, on all fronts, (except for a few vague statements that "in a few days" we'd see some moving forward on the MGM front which turned out to be a big fat lie) and when, I am sure, the processes that led to Del Toro's departure, whatever they were, began accelerating in earnest. March, in retrospect, seems to have been the turning point.

The reason why I gave the March date is this: I believe that the success of Avatar had a very big impact on the way WB viewed their expectations for TH, possibly chnaging their POV in a very short amount of time, and we need to look at this fact. Jeff Bewkes's mind may have changed on the subject in a VERY short amount of time--like, say, the week the global box office for Avatar broke the 2.5 billion mark. And that was for ONE film. Now, if TH films were released in 2D, there would be no way the studio could charge the inflated 3D ticket prices that 3D films get, which would drastically impact the box office. True, there would probably be a last-minute post-production 2D to 3D transfer for IMAX (I'm sure they felt like they'd look like idiots if they didn't at least try this) but other wise they'd have to suffer lower box office. Yes, there are only 200+ IMAX theaters in the world and outside the US, where the films would be mostly shown in 2D anyway, this would not be an issue. But the U.S. IMAX theaters, with their fantastic repeat business for Avatar, contributed a lot to the US take and made the difference whern it came to studio bragging rights.

And bragging rights matter very much these days, since they dramatically affect a studio's stock price and market share, and if the above press release didn't make ot all the more dramatically clear, the only thing the studio appears to care about is making as much money as possible and FAST. Before March, TH was the hottest franchise in town. Now, with an Avatar sequel coming, as big as it is, monetarily speaking, it isn't the BIGGEST anymore, not by a long shot. The past year, and think 2 yrs, (not counting this yr with Avatar';s success, this will count for this year), WB is the biggest earning studio in Hollywood. This yr and next, they'll likely keep that title, with the last 2 Harry Potter films coming out. But other than TH. there is no huge epic mega-budget blockbuster franchise on the table and they are in a state of panic. I'm sure they'd like to have something to come out in 2012 or later that makes as much or more than Avatar, so thst they'll still be #1. And how better to do that than have TH in 3d?

Besides, how will a 2D Hobbit look on all those new 3D TV's that people are already beginning to buy to play their Avatar Blu-Rays on? (We've already gotten a taste of the careful, loving attention that WB is putting forth to marketing TH as something different than HP or Avatar. *cough*.)

And forgive me if I maintain the notion that there weren;t powerful forces within WB after March that were arguing that a 2d Hobbit would be a futile "swimming against the Hollywood tsunami" of 3D. And therefore counter-productive.
And that's just WB. How did the hedge fund mmanagers who took over control of MGM in late March feel abouit this issue? You can bet that the Avatar box office and 3D ticket prices were the ONLY things their mon-movie busines eyes saw and understood....

That out of the way, let me say that from my knowledge of Del Toro (nowhere near Hellmistress's of course), but just as a fan of almost 5 yrs who has readt just about everything written in English about him, let me say that he is a passionate artist who fights for what he believes in and the biggest fights he has had with studios and other corporate entities in his projects tend to be scriptoral issues. The 2 prime examples of this are his debut film, Mimic, and Pan's Labyrinth. (Notice that he has said that whoever is chosen to direct, he will be :continuing to work on the scripts." I thought they had been turned in and supposedly approved of by January? Was there some outstanding major issues with the 2nd script? He clearly is intending to see that his vision is still honored. Not having worked on a Tolkien adaptation, which tneds to further evolve organically during filming, how could he be referring to that? There must be some other difficulty.)
For details on the agonizing experience he had in making "Mimic", his debut film, see Peter Biskind's book "Down And Dirty Pictures." . (Pg 250-255.) (I just re-read that and it made me sick all over again.) He wanted Mimic to be the masterful blend of action, mystery, lyricims and ideas that his 2nd film, "Cronos", was. Watch Mimic and then Cronis and compare the two. You'll get an idea of what Hollywood wanted to shove down his throat and his own vision. DT feels s strongly about this that last year he was STILL fighting Harvey Weinstein to get the origional version of Mimic released on DVD instead of the piece of crap that is the current version.
As to the PL fight, that was with the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences in 2006. I forget if it was during first screenings or the beginning of Oscar season, DT got world very early on that AMPAS was blown away and that it was a shoo-in for BFF nom. But they had a HUGE issue with "the little girl dying" and asked why the ending could not be changed. At one point, during a meeting with AMPAS officials, according to an interview he gave, one prominent member of AMPAS told himpoint-blank, "You know that you're going to lose the Oscar", implying flat out that if Ofelia died, he wouldn't win. Of course,. DT did not care what anyone thought, Ofelia's death and redemption--her Christ-like refusal to shed innocent blood--was the whole point of the film, and he did not back down.

So I am surmusing that in addition to the 2nd script possibly having been sent back to DT for revision by a studio that, after March, suddenly maybe wanting as "kid-friendly" a film as possible, there were other business issues on the table. I very HIGHLY doubt that PJ and G were atcreative odds over anything, and whatever DT wanted, PJ tried to present to the studio. DT's fight was with the studios, not PJ.

So let me throw out an example. If it were a script issue (one of the "many and varied" reasons DT said he had for leaving) what would be the Mimic and Ofelia-like issue he had with the script? There could be several.

What does DT feel the most passionately about, and what does he talk about a lot? What would he battle WB about for sure? Monsters. Let me throw out one throry: one little factor thst he'd be fighting the studio about. This would be one of many issues he'd have over the script. but it could be a promient one.

Let me throw out the possibilty of: Smaug. It's one of the few things he was talking enthusiastically about early on so you know how close it was to his heart. (God, just saying "was"--rips MY heart out...). What if Smaug was indeed introduced up close and personal only in the 2nd film, and WB was very unhappy about the way DT wanted us to see him? Before Avatar, they probably didn't care how dark the films were. But waht if the films got very dark (or at least semi-"adult") in the 2nd film (follwing the "whimsical to darK' character development trajectory") and DT's plans for Smaug were deemed too "non-mainstream"

Subject	User	Time
Is Neill Blomkamp the next 'Hobbit' director? Maybe	News from Bree	Jun 18 2010, 3:32pm
This would be a very good choice.	Kangi Ska	Jun 18 2010, 10:09pm
I agree 100%	Compa_Mighty	Jun 19 2010, 4:34am
If it is to be:	Kangi Ska	Jun 19 2010, 11:35am
My sentiments exactly, Kangi...	Patty	Jun 19 2010, 3:33pm
Genre director	Gandalf'sMother	Jun 20 2010, 1:46am
Everyone: For your enjoyment...	Sunflower	Jun 20 2010, 5:51am
Wow... Its exactly what I imagine when I read GDT`s breaking news!	Oscarilbo	Jun 18 2010, 10:11pm
Once again, mmmmmm-MONEY will triumph.	Sunflower	Jun 18 2010, 11:31pm
Woah woah woah	MrCere	Jun 19 2010, 12:51am
WARNING: Long and Rambling post ahead.	Sunflower	Jun 19 2010, 4:15am
Yes!	jedihillis	Jun 19 2010, 9:09am
First i want to thank	Vangalad	Jun 19 2010, 11:25am
It is obvious that you have put thought into what you are posting...	Owain	Jun 19 2010, 4:32pm
See Voronwe's post	Sunflower	Jun 20 2010, 5:33am
some thoughts...	Gildor	Jun 20 2010, 8:04am
Why so serious?	Kangi Ska	Jun 20 2010, 8:18am
I don't want the hobbit to be made anymore	Alass�	Jun 19 2010, 1:08am
So much drama	R11	Jun 19 2010, 1:23am
Boy I want the Hobbit made and quick	Kangi Ska	Jun 19 2010, 1:41am
Shark Jumping	Voorhas	Jun 19 2010, 8:40am
Shadows and Dreamscapes	Sunflower	Jun 19 2010, 10:38am
You know, same thing was said after PJ said he wouldn't direct	Ainu Laire	Jun 19 2010, 3:15pm
Yes, I could get behind Blomkamp	Oiot�ri	Jun 19 2010, 4:58pm
Mmmmmmmoney is what get's a film made.	Owain	Jun 19 2010, 6:07am
I think yoiur overemphsizing some potential problems....	moreorless	Jun 19 2010, 1:49pm
Re: Once again, mmmmmm-MONEY will triumph.	Runk Snusgrop	Jun 20 2010, 6:24am
Once again...	Sunflower	Jun 20 2010, 6:42am
Maybe 540 degrees? //	Kangi Ska	Jun 20 2010, 7:25am
This whole thing feels like death by degrees! (GDT leaving; the suspense . . .)	Ethel Duath	Jun 21 2010, 3:33am
Some people may call D9	R11	Jun 18 2010, 10:44pm
Somehow it seem appropriate that R11 likes D9 ;) //	Kangi Ska	Jun 18 2010, 11:53pm
Brother Kangi	R11	Jun 19 2010, 1:03am
Well	Kangi Ska	Jun 19 2010, 1:34am
My brain too.	Ethel Duath	Jun 19 2010, 1:47am
A,E,I,O,U, and sometimes Y?	Pipe Dream	Jun 19 2010, 11:48am
OK You wany to hear about the feaver I have had for the past 5 days.	Kangi Ska	Jun 19 2010, 1:30pm
I couldn't resist...	Pipe Dream	Jun 19 2010, 2:00pm
Thanx am slowly mending.	Kangi Ska	Jun 19 2010, 2:08pm
Well then...	Sunflower	Jun 20 2010, 4:03am
Indeed I am on the mend and at work monitoring security all night long.	Kangi Ska	Jun 20 2010, 4:13am
Uh, Kangi...	Sunflower	Jun 20 2010, 4:40am
I think that people are uncertain how to respond to what you write.	Kangi Ska	Jun 20 2010, 5:48am
That was my chief lament	Sunflower	Jun 20 2010, 6:39am
I like Knagi's comment of...	Huan71	Jun 20 2010, 10:49am
A statement from Guillermo	Sunflower	Jun 21 2010, 12:37am
Posts, the Director and the vision..	Huan71	Jun 21 2010, 9:16am
Lets call the whole thing off? NOT	Kangi Ska	Jun 21 2010, 9:55am
"Let us all hope for the best. It will save a lot of stomach linings."	Patty	Jun 21 2010, 3:54pm
Actually I have reponded several times to your posts....	Owain	Jun 20 2010, 8:30pm
Ahhh, I see	R11	Jun 21 2010, 6:43pm
I had serious troubles liking District 9 -	macfalk	Jun 18 2010, 10:52pm
It's not like we have a choice right?	Pipe Dream	Jun 18 2010, 11:26pm
Basically...	Malveth The Eternal	Jun 18 2010, 11:30pm
Any clues from Neill himself?	Nerwen	Jun 18 2010, 11:43pm
my initial reaction was discomfort	Oiot�ri	Jun 19 2010, 12:05am
Link for those like me who don't know much about him...	weaver	Jun 19 2010, 12:27am
Hmmm... I might like this choice.	entmaiden	Jun 19 2010, 1:26am
Its an interesting idea ...	Elven	Jun 19 2010, 1:49am
Here's something I found	Oiot�ri	Jun 19 2010, 2:12am
PJ has an uncanny nose for talent.	Ataahua	Jun 19 2010, 3:07am
Yes, indeed (and do we have any word yet on other departments heads -- DP, Production Design, Costume Design et al)	CINE	Jun 20 2010, 1:53am
No word that I know of	Arwen's daughter	Jun 20 2010, 3:49pm
Costumes	CINE	Jun 21 2010, 2:04am
Hmm...	Arwen's daughter	Jun 21 2010, 3:58am
i don't want the hobbit to be made like a harry potter movie!	Silmaril	Jun 21 2010, 7:20am
Great List (Canonero = Legend)!	CINE	Jun 21 2010, 8:30am
I have never seen a single movie he has made.	Woodyend	Jun 19 2010, 3:16am
That's my fear too :(	Alass�	Jun 19 2010, 5:28am
Don't despair before you've even watched District 9	Kyriel	Jun 19 2010, 10:55am
I am glad you wrote this	Kangi Ska	Jun 19 2010, 1:51pm
Me too, Kangi. Nicely said, Kyriel	Altaira	Jun 19 2010, 3:32pm
It is a wise guess he would do it especially when...	ringer5150	Jun 19 2010, 6:51am
Brilliant...	Huan71	Jun 20 2010, 10:52am
Heavy sigh	Doriath	Jun 19 2010, 8:03am
Amen...	Sunflower	Jun 19 2010, 11:06am
We do not know Neill Blomkamp's knowledge of Tolkien.//	Kangi Ska	Jun 19 2010, 1:56pm
Well...	dormouse	Jun 19 2010, 12:50pm
There is only the one.	Pipe Dream	Jun 19 2010, 1:17pm
I've always liked the idea of Blomkamp	Eldy	Jun 19 2010, 2:27pm
What can I say?	Marionette	Jun 19 2010, 2:37pm
Neill Blomkamp on the Forums	chrismortega	Jun 19 2010, 3:10pm
D9: A story of redemption	Kangi Ska	Jun 19 2010, 3:39pm
well...	chrismortega	Jun 20 2010, 12:17am
Just an Idea...	Bound	Jun 19 2010, 3:37pm
Lucas said that?	Patty	Jun 19 2010, 3:52pm
yeah	Bound	Jun 19 2010, 7:07pm
It's worth noting that TLB also received a lot of praise.	Ataahua	Jun 19 2010, 9:30pm
I think it will be considered a failure by anyone if it doesn�t equal LOTR.	Woodyend	Jun 19 2010, 9:43pm
I've just realised	Ataahua	Jun 19 2010, 10:13pm
I did enjoy it...	Buchanicus	Jun 20 2010, 12:42am
Choice of material.	Kangi Ska	Jun 20 2010, 12:55am
Same. /	Ataahua	Jun 20 2010, 1:05am
which is why he doens't want to do The Hobbit	Oiot�ri	Jun 20 2010, 12:54am
...	Bound	Jun 20 2010, 9:22am
What do critics know?	R11	Jun 21 2010, 8:32pm
I agree...	Bound	Jun 21 2010, 9:09pm
Director strong enough to keep PJ out of it	Gandalf'sMother	Jun 22 2010, 3:37am
Couldn't agree with you more...	Bound	Jun 22 2010, 6:25am
A rumour, though I still think	xy	Jun 19 2010, 5:41pm
I think just the opisit would be true.	Kangi Ska	Jun 20 2010, 12:11am
hmm	xy	Jun 20 2010, 7:53am
I dont think SPJ would do that ... just yet anyway ...	Elven	Jun 21 2010, 10:54am
i really hope so!	marlonbrando76	Jun 19 2010, 7:39pm
Not sold on this guy.	Uruk-Hai	Jun 19 2010, 7:40pm
I'm open to whatever PJ thinks is best	Garfeimao	Jun 19 2010, 8:10pm
Well said!	Buchanicus	Jun 19 2010, 8:57pm
That's a very good point	dormouse	Jun 19 2010, 10:00pm
Perhaps something else occurred that caused a crisis.	Kangi Ska	Jun 20 2010, 12:28am
I'm inclined to agree with you	Voronw�_the_Faithful	Jun 20 2010, 1:28am
Curious	Sunflower	Jun 20 2010, 5:15am
Nothing so arcane:	Kangi Ska	Jun 20 2010, 6:09am
That's true	dormouse	Jun 20 2010, 7:45am
Probably because the announcement had not been made.	entmaiden	Jun 20 2010, 12:29pm
Exactly. This is standard practice.	Silverlode	Jun 20 2010, 8:19pm
Agreed	Owain	Jun 20 2010, 8:23pm
You're both missing my point	Voronw�_the_Faithful	Jun 20 2010, 8:27pm
I am with you on this.	Kangi Ska	Jun 20 2010, 8:46pm
I disagree.	Silverlode	Jun 20 2010, 8:47pm
I respect your opinion	Voronw�_the_Faithful	Jun 20 2010, 8:53pm
Can you help me	pasi	Jun 20 2010, 10:48pm
pasi	macfalk	Jun 20 2010, 11:00pm
People are interested in what GdT does	Voronw�_the_Faithful	Jun 20 2010, 11:19pm
Maybe, maybe not	SirDennisC	Jun 20 2010, 9:49pm
I agree with Silverlode	entmaiden	Jun 20 2010, 11:30pm
so Comic-Con is a month away	Oiot�ri	Jun 20 2010, 2:45pm
comic con annoucment would be great, but on the other hand...	ringer5150	Jun 20 2010, 6:30pm
Comic-con Announcement	Kangi Ska	Jun 20 2010, 8:54pm
Another big (yet disappointing) announcement? ...like the Blu-Ray fiasco?	SteveDJ	Jun 21 2010, 5:55pm
About Experience	rings7	Jun 20 2010, 3:55pm
New hobbit director	pasi	Jun 20 2010, 5:01pm
which new words? //	Oiot�ri	Jun 20 2010, 5:05pm
the words from Ian	pasi	Jun 20 2010, 5:29pm
oh, yeah, I read that	Oiot�ri	Jun 20 2010, 5:39pm
Honestly	duats	Jun 21 2010, 12:07am
not happy...	merklynn	Jun 21 2010, 1:49pm
Sorry, merklynn	dormouse	Jun 21 2010, 2:19pm
I'm not losing hope...	merklynn	Jun 21 2010, 2:37pm

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