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FarFromHome
Valinor
May 7 2010, 3:50am
Views: 521
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... between showing and telling, as I put it in my previous post.
...Denethor is spoken of as great from the beginning, up to Gandalf's words to Pippin before meeting him!.... the last words regarding him (Gandalf's) mention his greatness in not succumbing to the palantir ...
I consider all that to be mere telling - and in the telling, I agree, Denethor is reported to be very great.
But we are only shown Denethor through the eyes of Pippin, and he sees many hints of weakness in his complex portrayal of the character - great force of will, for sure, and a character that inspires fear and respect. But we also see Denethor using his reputation for wisdom to manipulate others - overriding the advice of all his generals, for example, to make sure that Faramir ends up on the front line. And even using his grief for Boromir "as a cloak" to further his political ends -to the point where I question whether his grief for Boromir was primarily for the son, and not mostly for the heir (and the "mighty gift" he thought he was bringing).
I see the hidden mail and sword as a sign that Denethor is cultivating his own belief in his greatness and courage, while we know from Gandalf's reaction to Denethor's decisions that the only courage that matters is to go out and put your own safety on the line, no matter how great and indispensable you may think you are. The hidden mail, then, is a sign of a hollow man - one who is "keeping up appearances" even to himself.
Believe me, a lesser man (even an Imrahil or an Eomer) would have been way less successful in witholding crucial information from Sauron...
Possibly, but I view this as irrelevant to the question of the portrayal of Denethor - the man we are allowed to see for ourselves through the eyes of Pippin. Pippin is an excellent witness, and even sees "...by a sense other than sight ... that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled." Which reminds me that, just as Denethor reminds Pippin of Aragorn, so Faramir reminds Sam of Gandalf: "But I can say this: you have an air too, sir, that reminds me of, of – well, Gandalf, of wizards." The hobbits, with their naive insight, see what greater folk either do not see or will not say. Faramir is the one who resembles Gandalf - his father, though he looks greater, is the lesser man.
I am sure that Denethor's story in truly the fall of the a great man, similar to (but more powerful than) those tremendous personalities, Michael_Henchard and Gunhild_Borkman (Draupne noddes sagely).
I'm not familiar with the Ibsen play you refer to, but The Mayor of Casterbridge is one of my favourite Hardy novels, and really, I just can't agree that Denethor belongs in this company at all, let alone that he's more powerful than Hardy's character - or than, for example, the character of Bulstrode in George Eliot's Middlemarch, who suffers a similar fall. The problem with Denethor, for me, is that we are only told of his greatness. Tolkien never provides a portrait of that side of the man. He does the same for Saruman, and as you say, for Boromir. All these characters have a reputation (retroactive in Boromir's case) other than what we see for ourselves. Henchard, by comparison, is much more complex - we see his personality in all its facets, in a way that we simply never could with Denethor. It's so different that I find it hard to even make the comparison. I'm not criticizing Tolkien for this, because I don't think he ever had any intention of making such a realistic portrait, and indeed if he had tried he'd have totally derailed his fantasy.
....whatever you may think of Tom Shippey's suggestion that he saw Frodo being captured - it is still clear that the Enemy learned nothing from him regarding Frodo) as opposed to Saruman.
Well, despite the fact that I said above that Denethor's strength regarding the palantir is irrelevant to the portrait of the man that we see for ourselves, I still can't resist...
First, thanks to Tom Shippey for working out the timeline, I now feel strengthened in my own personal UUT that Denethor is referring to Sam when he talks about the Ring "in the hands of a witless fool". That wording just sounds too much like one of Tolkien's little ironic hints!
Whether or not Denethor saw something that he managed to hide from Sauron, or whether Sauron only let him see what he wanted him to (as Gandalf suggests), I don't think there's any way of knowing. Tolkien deliberately left all this ambiguous, as he so often does, and allows us to contruct our own idea of how we want to imagine things to be. In any case, my argument doesn't really centre on Denethor's strength of will - even if his will is stronger than Saruman's (and why not? - it's stronger than Gandalf's) what does it avail him if he has no compassion and no true courage? As we see from his death, Denethor's only true sympathy is for himself.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on May 7 2010, 3:54am)
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Time
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John Noble's thoughts on Denethor
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Arwen Skywalker
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May 4 2010, 4:38pm
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"[Denethor] loved [Boromir] greatly: too much perhaps; and the more so because they were unlike."
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squire
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May 4 2010, 9:39pm
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Re: "[Denethor] loved [Boromir] greatly: too much perhaps; and the more so because they were unlike."
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Gene_Beane
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May 4 2010, 11:14pm
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Denethor is the anti-Aragorn
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Arwen's daughter
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May 5 2010, 11:47pm
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Denethor is also the mirror twin of Theodin:
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Kangi Ska
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May 6 2010, 12:04am
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Absolutely
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Arwen's daughter
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May 6 2010, 2:25am
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My thoughts exactly! (As an aside. . .
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Ethel Duath
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May 6 2010, 3:32am
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I believe that this is unsettled: there was a long thread without resolution.//
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Kangi Ska
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May 6 2010, 4:23am
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Basically, either is fine. It's not official - just a courtesy! //
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FarFromHome
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May 6 2010, 4:25am
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OT not quite. /
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SirDennisC
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May 6 2010, 4:37am
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Thanks Kangi and Magpie! Sorry for the OT/
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Ethel Duath
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May 6 2010, 1:57pm
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there is room
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Magpie
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May 6 2010, 4:26am
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I have thought of that many, many times, and given it
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Ethel Duath
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May 6 2010, 3:29am
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Yes and this comes across in the film
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FarFromHome
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May 6 2010, 3:30am
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They even look alike.
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N.E. Brigand
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May 6 2010, 3:57am
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Wow, what a great discussion on the old boards,
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Ethel Duath
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May 6 2010, 4:26am
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I tend to agree with Gene_Beane---
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Ethel Duath
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May 5 2010, 3:47am
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The only comment I remember
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Silverlode
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May 5 2010, 8:08pm
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I don't have my Letters either
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FarFromHome
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May 6 2010, 12:38am
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That really makes a lot of sense.
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Ethel Duath
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May 6 2010, 3:25am
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That does sound familiar.
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Ethel Duath
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May 6 2010, 3:37am
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We got more of Theoden, less of Denethor in the films...
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weaver
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May 5 2010, 11:32pm
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Very true.
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FarFromHome
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May 6 2010, 3:53am
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I'm not sure I agree.
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sador
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May 6 2010, 9:58am
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It's the difference...
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FarFromHome
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May 7 2010, 3:50am
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A nice UUT!
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sador
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May 7 2010, 5:16am
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Darn!
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FarFromHome
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May 7 2010, 6:37am
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I never imagined
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squire
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May 7 2010, 9:28am
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I was reading Denethor that way...
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FarFromHome
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May 8 2010, 1:32am
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It's not a suicide mission in the books.
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N.E. Brigand
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May 8 2010, 3:09am
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Faramir argues strongly against the mission
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FarFromHome
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May 8 2010, 3:41am
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Wow, this thread has really evolved
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Arwen Skywalker
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May 9 2010, 8:05pm
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It's Imrahil who refers to "sand-castles".
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N.E. Brigand
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May 7 2010, 2:56pm
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Well, Gandalf refers to Denethor
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sador
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May 7 2010, 3:18pm
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Gandalf calls himself a fool, too.
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N.E. Brigand
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May 7 2010, 4:54pm
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I n't think so...
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Kangi Ska
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May 7 2010, 8:58pm
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NARF - Not a Real Fool? //
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Arwen's daughter
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May 7 2010, 9:12pm
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He only got one point on him's hat & no bells...//
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Kangi Ska
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May 7 2010, 9:23pm
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I never said Denethor wasn't sensible.
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FarFromHome
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May 8 2010, 1:53am
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I agree with half of your statement
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FarFromHome
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May 8 2010, 1:41am
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What else should Denethor have done?
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N.E. Brigand
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May 8 2010, 2:51am
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Do you want the Rational or the Romantic answer?
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FarFromHome
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May 8 2010, 3:27am
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If you check the dates
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sador
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May 6 2010, 10:13am
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interesting quotes
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xy
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May 7 2010, 6:17pm
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Aragorn is also the anti-Sauron.//
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Kangi Ska
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May 7 2010, 9:03pm
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I think there is a Denethor/Aragorn contrast in the movies
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FarFromHome
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May 8 2010, 2:19am
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personally I don't see it
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xy
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May 8 2010, 2:59pm
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He would have been great...
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Marionette
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May 8 2010, 7:03pm
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