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NottaSackville
Valinor
Mar 25 2010, 4:12am
Views: 14193
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(I'm glad you posted this early [early for Eastern US time, at least) as I'll be in a business meeting all day long) Trust me, there's some Tolkien after the science... [Science mode on] We've probably all seen the representation of X-ray vision in cartoons or comic books - some nasty-looking rays shoot out of someones eyes, revealing some trinket hidden behind a wall, under a box, in a safe, etc. How exactly these X-ray beams work, I don't know. When I was a kid, I used to think that our eyes worked by ray-vision as well - somehow our eyes "looked out" and saw stuff that was lit by light. But in reality, vision works when little packets of energy (photons of light) bounce off things and then into our eyes. Once in our eyes, they hit specific molecules and excite them. These excited molecules send a signal to our brain that eventually get interpreted as our eyes having "seen" those somethings that the light bounced off of. The important thing here is that vision results from external light ENTERING the eye, not leaving it. [Science mode off] As I was reading the Hobbit for the eleventy-eleventh time recently, I resolved to post a topic in the Reading Room about something that has long bothered me in Tolkien's writing: Tolkien seemed enamored, particularly in the Hobbit, with the X-ray vision method of seeing things - rays of light shining out of the eye somehow help in seeing things. We've got Gollum with his "pale, lamplike eyes". Bilbo sees Gollum off on his island as "two small points of light peering at him", and soon "the light in Gollum's eyes had become a green fire" and "he turned and saw Gollum's eyes like small green lamps". And once Bilbo is behind him (removing any possibility that Gollum's eyes are merely ultra-reflective and shining Sting's light back at him), "Bilbo could see the light of his eyes shining palely even from behind", and Gollum was "turning his head from side to side, as Bilbo could see from the faint glimmer on the walls", and finally, Gollum was "only a black shadow in the gleam of his own eyes". Clearly this is not a case of Tolkien's frequently used method of "seemed as though", or "as if", or similar language to make us wonder whether the observer saw magic or just something natural but wondrous - there is no doubt that Gollum's eyes emit light. But Gollum isn't the only Hobbit creature with overly-bright eyes, as we see when good lo' Smaug the Magnificent gets into the act: "He [Bilbo] was just about to step out on to the floor when he caught a sudden thin and piercing ray of red from under the drooping lid of Smaug's left eye." Since we'd just been told that "only the faintest glow could be seen" in Smaug's lair, there's no way Smaug's eye is just reflecting ambient light in a "piercing" way. Finally, even protagonists get into the act during the Battle of Five Armies: "Out leapt the King under the Mountain, and his companions followed him. Hood and cloak were gone; they were in shining armor, and red light leapt from their eyes". Smaug and the Dwarves only get ray-vision momentarily for dramatic effect, but Gollum gets it for a specific reason - so let's look at Gollum a little more closely. Clearly his bright eyes are meant to help him see in the darkness. But shouldn't they really do just the opposite? I'm sure the idea is that the light emitted by his eyes bounces off things and helps him see them. But that just doesn't work! Much of the light emitted by his eyes would be immediately reflected right back into them. Light tends to reflect off of air/liquid interfaces such as the surface of our eyes - that's why our eyes have those nice, attractive specular highlights in them and are often described as "bright" and "shining", because they reflect part of the light that hits them. Well, any light emitted from inside our eyes would do the same thing, only this time it would be reflected back INTO the eye rather than away from it, effectively blinding the eyes rather than helping. One could maybe speculate that the liquid on the surface of the eye was the emitting material, but that would be even worse, because (since molecules don't have a front and a back) as much light would get emitted into the eye as away from it. I basically envision all this ray-vision as the equivalent of shining a flashlight in your eyes to see in the dark - it does way more harm than good. Gollum's eyes have been discussed here before - I found some discussion here. Some questions: 1) Who needs an invisibility ring when everything runs around blinding itself anyway? 2) We know why Tolkien gave Gollum ray-vision, but why does Smaug have it? 3) Do the dwarves eyes really glow, or is that poetic license? 4) Does Tolkien's ray-vision bother you? 5) In a world where Smaug is both large enough that he can ruin entire mountain sides, his fall splinters an entire town and causes the lake to come "roaring in", but yet small enough to traverse through Dwarven tunnels killing the dwarves and collecting all their treasure, and a world where Smaug is capable of living in a vast wasteland with no food, coming out so infrequently that entire generations doubt he exists and yet he's capable of generating large amounts of energy and flame at a moments notice, is it wrong that what bothers me is his glowing eyes? 6) Are there any other creatures in Tolkien's works that have glowing eyes or ray vision, or is this a Hobbit thing? (Other than the extension of Gollum into LOTR) 7) Do I now need to forgive P. Jackson his laser-beam Sauron, since not only did he not really invent the idea, but it's practically canon for Tolkien's major evil creatures to have ray-vision? 8) Are there other famous examples in literature of creatures with ray vision? Did Tolkien maybe draw on any of these for his ideas? My ability to participate during the day is going to be limited, but I'll check in before and after work - Notta
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Subject
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User
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Time
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It's Tolkien Reading Day! Post your ABCs of Tolkien here.
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 25 2010, 3:48am
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C is for Cerin Amroth...
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GAndyalf
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Mar 25 2010, 3:57am
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Wow - nicely done!
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NottaSackville
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Mar 25 2010, 11:57am
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<Bows low>
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GAndyalf
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Mar 25 2010, 1:24pm
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GREAT ELEPHANTS!
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GAndyalf
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Mar 25 2010, 3:27pm
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No problem - it's a common mistake
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NottaSackville
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Mar 25 2010, 3:53pm
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But you did so...
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GAndyalf
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Mar 25 2010, 4:56pm
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A question
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Kangi Ska
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Mar 27 2010, 1:42am
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Yep.//
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Elizabeth
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Mar 27 2010, 3:01am
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As Lady Elizabeth says...
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GAndyalf
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Mar 27 2010, 3:18am
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It *raises* the question...
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Elizabeth
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Mar 27 2010, 4:09am
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<chuckle>
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GAndyalf
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Mar 27 2010, 5:57am
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A good poet is aware of all levels of meaning in his work.
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Kangi Ska
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Mar 27 2010, 2:32pm
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But he never tells us...
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GAndyalf
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Mar 27 2010, 3:56pm
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A guess...
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Elizabeth
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Mar 27 2010, 6:20pm
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A good poet offers the poem not its meaning
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Kangi Ska
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Mar 27 2010, 6:26pm
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(smile)
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GAndyalf
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Mar 27 2010, 7:07pm
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Simbelmyne or Evermind in ths common tongue
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Kangi Ska
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Mar 27 2010, 7:16pm
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Thank you!
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GAndyalf
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Mar 27 2010, 7:21pm
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Yes it is about time I reread the Silmarillion. It has been a couple years.//
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Kangi Ska
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Mar 27 2010, 8:09pm
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The Heart of Elvendom on earth
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Kangi Ska
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Mar 27 2010, 8:03pm
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Am I to understand then...
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GAndyalf
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Mar 27 2010, 8:21pm
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A bit more difficult to explain
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Kangi Ska
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Mar 27 2010, 8:41pm
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Cool!
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GAndyalf
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Mar 28 2010, 1:44am
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The perilous realm
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FarFromHome
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Mar 31 2010, 4:22am
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Nicely said! //
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Mar 31 2010, 2:33pm
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No.
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Night Wolf
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Apr 1 2010, 4:58pm
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Perhaps the place chose them. //
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Kangi Ska
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Mar 27 2010, 2:22pm
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T is for Tolkien
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Magpie
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Mar 25 2010, 4:10am
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Very "British"...
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GAndyalf
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Mar 25 2010, 3:25pm
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British wit
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Magpie
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Mar 26 2010, 1:16am
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"Frank-ness"
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GAndyalf
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Mar 26 2010, 1:32am
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well...
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batik
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Mar 26 2010, 1:11am
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re: coffee
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Magpie
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Mar 26 2010, 1:14am
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X is for X-Ray vision ...
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NottaSackville
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Mar 25 2010, 4:12am
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LOL at #5 :-) //
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Magpie
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Mar 25 2010, 4:16am
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Interesting question!
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FarFromHome
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Mar 25 2010, 7:21am
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E is for Emission Theory
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Darkstone
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Mar 25 2010, 3:46pm
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Interesting - good to know I wasn't alone...
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NottaSackville
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Mar 25 2010, 3:54pm
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I think....
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GAndyalf
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Mar 25 2010, 4:54pm
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Light of eyes
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White Gull
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Mar 26 2010, 2:00pm
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The answer to Smaug's powers...
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Kangi Ska
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Mar 27 2010, 2:05am
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P is for Peregrin Took!
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fairelvenlady
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Mar 25 2010, 4:46am
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Give or Took...
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GAndyalf
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Mar 25 2010, 5:20pm
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K is for Kirith Ungol
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Modtheow
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Mar 25 2010, 5:32am
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corrected link
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Modtheow
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Mar 25 2010, 12:33pm
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Tolkien - word pictures.
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Istari68
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Mar 25 2010, 4:16pm
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"Ha, hmm, my friends, let us go for a walk!"...
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batik
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Mar 25 2010, 5:54am
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sidestepping the quiz for a comment on the word Quickbeam
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Magpie
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Mar 25 2010, 1:57pm
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Wow!
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GAndyalf
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Mar 25 2010, 5:32pm
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My son is Rowan
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Kangi Ska
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Mar 27 2010, 3:15pm
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Hmmmm....
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Darkstone
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Mar 25 2010, 7:38pm
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T is for Thursday!
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sador
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Mar 25 2010, 6:10am
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How subversive, satirical and sharp of you
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SirDennisC
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Mar 25 2010, 7:49pm
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E(ä) is for Eärendil
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Night Wolf
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Mar 25 2010, 7:15am
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Interesting
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SirDennisC
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Mar 25 2010, 9:13pm
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B is for Beowulf
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SirDennisC
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Mar 25 2010, 9:35am
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worthy of study
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Modtheow
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Mar 25 2010, 5:56pm
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I'm glad we agree!
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SirDennisC
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Mar 25 2010, 9:18pm
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Scholarly...
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GAndyalf
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Mar 25 2010, 6:01pm
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Thank you
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SirDennisC
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Mar 25 2010, 10:33pm
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Yes but don't forget...
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FarFromHome
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Mar 26 2010, 4:52am
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(laughs)
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GAndyalf
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Mar 26 2010, 1:30pm
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I have to agree
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FarFromHome
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Mar 26 2010, 2:05pm
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Cool stuff!
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GAndyalf
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Mar 26 2010, 4:14pm
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Would that be a stoat?
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 26 2010, 5:51pm
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Whoops!
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FarFromHome
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Mar 27 2010, 1:13am
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Regardless of the typo
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SirDennisC
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Mar 27 2010, 3:38am
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F is for Fëanor
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Elizabeth
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Mar 25 2010, 10:03am
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In pity for Feanor...
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GAndyalf
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Mar 25 2010, 6:39pm
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Thank you!
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Elizabeth
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Mar 25 2010, 8:05pm
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I is for Ioreth
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dernwyn
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Mar 25 2010, 10:15am
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I think it says a lot...
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Magpie
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Mar 25 2010, 2:07pm
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Yes, a favourite
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SirDennisC
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Mar 26 2010, 3:42am
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Intriguing idea indeed!
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GAndyalf
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Mar 26 2010, 1:33pm
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Concurring with GAndy
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dernwyn
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Mar 26 2010, 3:43pm
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Ioreth is a fun character.
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fairelvenlady
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Mar 27 2010, 8:26pm
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A little learning...
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FarFromHome
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Mar 28 2010, 1:01am
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From a medieval history syllabus...
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GAndyalf
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Mar 28 2010, 1:51am
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my own favorite quote
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sevilodorf
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Mar 28 2010, 5:43pm
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L is for Lothórien
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drogo
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Mar 25 2010, 10:19am
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through a high window
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Modtheow
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Mar 25 2010, 5:49pm
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I'd never thought about it that way
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Oiotári
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Mar 25 2010, 9:36pm
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Nasmith, for me.
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Elizabeth
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Mar 25 2010, 10:46pm
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Thanks for those links!
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Aunt Dora Baggins
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Mar 26 2010, 1:00am
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Middle-earth in HD...
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batik
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Mar 26 2010, 9:16pm
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I guess it depends
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FarFromHome
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Mar 29 2010, 1:09pm
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J is for Josef Stalin
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Pryderi
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Mar 25 2010, 11:36am
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It seems,
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SirDennisC
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Mar 25 2010, 9:32pm
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He does seem to dislike "globalisation" doesn't he?...
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Pryderi
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Mar 25 2010, 11:01pm
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'D' is for Denethor
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Hamfast Gamgee
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Mar 25 2010, 11:38am
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Denethor, son of Ecthelion
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GAndyalf
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Mar 25 2010, 6:57pm
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W is for Woses!
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Tweezers of Thu
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Mar 25 2010, 12:22pm
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always something new
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Modtheow
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Mar 26 2010, 12:20am
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Oh, yes! Even after 44 years (gasp!)...
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Tweezers of Thu
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Mar 26 2010, 4:58pm
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Ack - they're everywhere!
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NottaSackville
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Mar 26 2010, 12:24pm
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Another example! Flame-eyed Elves!
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Tweezers of Thu
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Mar 26 2010, 5:36pm
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"L" is also for "Letters"
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Elwen
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Mar 25 2010, 1:37pm
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(Soft, benevolent smile for Frodo)
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GAndyalf
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Mar 25 2010, 7:17pm
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O is for Olórë Mallë
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Oiotári
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Mar 25 2010, 2:33pm
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Roverandom?
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GAndyalf
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Mar 25 2010, 7:23pm
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R is for Rosie
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Rosie-with-the-ribbons
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Mar 25 2010, 3:27pm
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(laughs) Getting two in at once?
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GAndyalf
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Mar 25 2010, 7:29pm
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Yep
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Rosie-with-the-ribbons
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Mar 26 2010, 9:23am
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Wish I had your impishness!
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GAndyalf
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Mar 26 2010, 4:50pm
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Muchos gracias
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Rosie-with-the-ribbons
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Mar 26 2010, 6:59pm
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It's not too far off...
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GAndyalf
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Mar 26 2010, 7:14pm
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Close enough...
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GAndyalf
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Mar 26 2010, 7:21pm
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Marido Oscuro, lol...
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Evernight
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Mar 26 2010, 7:03pm
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<Takes his lumps>
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GAndyalf
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Mar 26 2010, 7:16pm
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G is for Gandalf
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Nerdanel
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Mar 25 2010, 6:01pm
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At a guess...
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GAndyalf
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Mar 25 2010, 7:35pm
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laughter
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Modtheow
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Mar 26 2010, 2:33am
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S is for Smith of Wootton Major.
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Evernight
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Mar 25 2010, 6:08pm
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(Daubs tears)
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GAndyalf
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Mar 25 2010, 7:44pm
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"Why is Faery important? How important is it to you?"
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SirDennisC
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Mar 26 2010, 4:12am
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A is for Arkenstone!
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entmaiden
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Mar 25 2010, 6:53pm
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Because you asked...
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GAndyalf
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Mar 25 2010, 7:51pm
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It just so happens
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Oiotári
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Mar 25 2010, 8:57pm
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Z is for Zirakzigil
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weaver
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Mar 25 2010, 8:29pm
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"I need no map," said Gimli...
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 25 2010, 9:20pm
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Aha! More Z's!
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weaver
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Mar 25 2010, 9:46pm
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On living rock.
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Pryderi
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Mar 25 2010, 11:34pm
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Zis monument, carved into ze hillside - it is zuspicious, no?
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squire
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Mar 26 2010, 1:53am
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U is for Uolë Kúvion, the Man in the Moon
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Dân o’Nandor-on-Anduin
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Mar 25 2010, 10:43pm
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How charming...
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SirDennisC
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Mar 26 2010, 2:48am
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E is for Erendis
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acheron
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Mar 26 2010, 12:39am
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I really like this story
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Modtheow
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Mar 27 2010, 1:49pm
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V is for Voronwë
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Mar 26 2010, 2:12am
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One of the amazing things about the depth of Tolkien's writing -
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NottaSackville
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Mar 26 2010, 12:48pm
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I remembered...
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GAndyalf
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Mar 26 2010, 4:55pm
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H is for Halfling!
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aranelthehobbit22
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Mar 26 2010, 2:21am
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No worries
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SirDennisC
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Mar 26 2010, 2:30am
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Thank you
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GAndyalf
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Mar 26 2010, 2:40am
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M is for Morwen
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Saelind
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Mar 26 2010, 2:54am
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The saddest...
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GAndyalf
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Mar 26 2010, 3:18am
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M is for Morwen
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Saelind
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Mar 26 2010, 3:48am
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'H' is for, hip, hip, hooray, everyone!
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Altaira
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Mar 26 2010, 3:33am
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N is for Niggle
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Finding Frodo
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Mar 26 2010, 4:11am
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Whoops!
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Finding Frodo
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Mar 26 2010, 2:33pm
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Niggle and Tasks...
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GAndyalf
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Mar 26 2010, 4:33pm
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Y is for Yggdrasil.
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 26 2010, 6:42am
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How did drasils turn into wargs?
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NottaSackville
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Mar 26 2010, 3:47pm
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A is for N.E. Brigand -
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NottaSackville
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Mar 26 2010, 12:28pm
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Seconded!
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sador
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Mar 26 2010, 12:31pm
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Thirded!
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entmaiden
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Mar 27 2010, 12:09am
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All in favour
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Modtheow
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Mar 27 2010, 1:57pm
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And a big thank-you from me, too
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Lily Fairbairn
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Mar 28 2010, 6:03pm
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Wow! This is great!
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Compa_Mighty
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Apr 4 2010, 7:52pm
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