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sador
Half-elven
Jul 12 2009, 7:52am
Views: 1029
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1. Let me get this straight -- Bilbo lost his pocket handkerchief, and his buttons, but somehow he kept Thorin's letter? I understand that was more important. But he had to remember switching it to his dry clothes in the goblin's cave! Is it credible he'd still have it at this point? I used to think it was hardly credible, at least surviving the Forest River. However, Dreamdeer and squire pointed out it was probably written on parchment. But was it? Remember the narrator's comment at the beginning of 'Roast Mutton': "If you had dusted the mantelpiece, you would have found this just under the clock," said Gandalf, handing Bilbo a note (written, of course, on his own note-paper). To me, this sounds as another of Tolkien's anachronisms - showing how much Bilbo is a modern Englishman out of place in the Ancient World; but it refutes this explanation! Unless we assume this is a part of Tolkien's "translating" the Red Book into Tolkien's English. Do you like this suggestion? I suspect even Dreamdeer won't; and squire would probably abhor it. And why did Tolkien think he needed it here? It shows again just how much Bilbo is an outsider; even a dwarf wouldn't think of producing this kind of evidence (and not letting the Elvenking and Bard read it)! Which serves both an internal and an external purpose: Internally, it helps Bilbo baffle Bard and the Elvenking, getting them to accept his offer without misgivings or doubts. Externally, reminding us that Bilbo is a character like us, and an outsider in this world - makes us see him as the reasonable and truly moral person who unties the Gordian knot of ancient world's prejudices, rather than the simple traitor he might otherwise seem. Bringing us back into the modern business-world, while being comic, also prompts us to view the action by the correct moral standards (our own, of course!). 2. Just how much of a plan did Bilbo have about this encounter? How much did he have thought out ahead of time, and how much is figuring out on the spot? I think Bilbo is more of an improvisor. But can't think of any concrete proof. 3. To make his case, Bilbo produces a letter, supports the "claims" of Bard and the Elven King, provides information about Dain, and gives up the Arkenstone. What conclusions can you draw about the particular sequence of things Bilbo had to do in order to win the confidence of Bard and the Elven King? First he baffles and mystifies them, then reassures them, wins there confidence by leaking critical information, and then males the actual offer. Masterly! 4. Do you see any similarities between Bilbo's interrogation here and that of Frodo by Faramir in LotR? Hardly any. Bilbo is the master here. Curious' suggetion to parallel it with Aragorn and Eomer's encounter seems more apt. 5. Which description of the Arkenstone do you prefer -- the shiny glittery imagery, or the reference to it being "Thorin's heart"? I prefer refering to it as 'Thorin's heart' - at least until I think of it a a sacred object, which the cynics of the world use as bargaining chip. 6. Just how strongly was Bilbo tempted to keep the Arkenstone? He was, but not strongly enough to do anything foolish. If Bard had believed him without needing to reveal it, would he have kept it? And done what? There is no turning back at this stage; he should have looked at it earlier, before fording the river.
"Such a fool deserves to starve." - Bard.
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Subject
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User
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Time
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A Thief in the Night -- Part 4
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weaver
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Jul 10 2009, 3:53am
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here goes
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Twit
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Jul 10 2009, 10:10am
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Letter consistency
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Dreamdeer
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Jul 11 2009, 12:17am
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Thoughts.
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Curious
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Jul 10 2009, 2:19pm
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Letter
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Dreamdeer
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Jul 11 2009, 12:14am
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Bilbo makes them an offer they can't refuse
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squire
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Jul 11 2009, 5:24am
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Good for you to have done it!
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sador
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Jul 12 2009, 7:27am
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“Bilbo is not honest yet” - ??
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squire
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Jul 12 2009, 2:28pm
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Quite so!
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N.E. Brigand
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Jul 12 2009, 5:26pm
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Perhaps "find out" was too strong
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sador
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Jul 13 2009, 6:41am
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The Mind as Iceberg
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Dreamdeer
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Jul 13 2009, 6:36pm
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It may be in the author's mind,
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Curious
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Jul 13 2009, 6:45pm
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If Bilbo lied to his neighbors about his adventures,
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Curious
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Jul 13 2009, 6:47pm
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"His magic ring he kept a great secret..."
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N.E. Brigand
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Jul 13 2009, 7:15pm
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Oops!
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sador
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Jul 13 2009, 7:24pm
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Not lied?
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sador
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Jul 13 2009, 7:22pm
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As N.E.B. notes, there's no obligation to tell everything.
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Curious
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Jul 13 2009, 8:32pm
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Well, you know
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sador
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Jul 14 2009, 6:15am
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Bilbo told Frodo the whole story, but
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Curious
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Jul 14 2009, 8:55am
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The Quest for Power
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Dreamdeer
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Jul 14 2009, 6:56pm
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Tolkien wanted to put the genie back
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Curious
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Jul 14 2009, 7:46pm
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"Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who possess it"
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squire
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Jul 14 2009, 9:39pm
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Or Capitalist or Colonialist
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Curious
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Jul 14 2009, 10:39pm
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Consensus is a matter of opinion.
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Dreamdeer
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Jul 15 2009, 2:53am
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You got my point
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Dreamdeer
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Jul 15 2009, 2:42am
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A few answers
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sador
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Jul 12 2009, 7:52am
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Ah, the "note-paper"!
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squire
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Jul 12 2009, 2:47pm
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Water-resistant ink
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Kimi
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Jul 13 2009, 1:14am
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Excellent!
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squire
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Jul 13 2009, 1:38am
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Fascinating!
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dernwyn
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Jul 13 2009, 3:19am
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I like Bilbo's style of taking care of business so much more
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grammaboodawg
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Jul 12 2009, 2:45pm
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