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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Jun 8 2009, 3:42pm
Views: 361
Shortcut
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I do not mention the shadows behind the story in order to drag it down or destroy the beauty. Rather, because so many have chosen not to see beyond the surface brilliance, many others condemn the stories as having no depth, being black and white cartoons, and I find this unfair. So I hasten to point out thatTolkien did put the depths there, fully rounded out. The characters really are complex. The triumph of good means something because it's not all that easy. Rather than drag the story down, I see this as illustrating just how high it leaps, straight up from the same clay of which we are all made. I am not interested in the virtues of temptation-free angels, nor the victories of supermen born strong without exercise. Faramir's refusal of the Ring means more to me because I think he was tempted. Sam taking on Shelob means more because he is small. And that quote about Sam and the world of quests versus the world of eating and begetting and so forth, if you look closely at it Tolkien says that Sam is there to bridge the two--he's a good ol' boy who yearns to visit elves. Tolkien is perhaps much too subtle for our more blatant world to fully appreciate. In his day polite people didn't directly talk about the gritty side of life, but they didn't ignore it, either. They found discreet ways to hint at its presence and acknowledge it as a factor in life, without paying it undue attention. I find his stories full of such polite, discreet acknowledgements without spelling anything out too graphically. (We all know, for instance, that when he says that the elves got "sleepy" over the wine that he really means "drunk".) Sometimes censorship, and then working around it, has greater impact, because the unseen can loom more darkly than the seen. There is a scene in the movie, "Lawrence of Arabia", where Lawrence has to execute a man. You see the man kneeling on the ground, then you see Lawrence from a ground-level perspective, firing the gun. Then the gun moves, and fires again, with his face getting grimmer and grimmer. Then the gun moves yet a third time, and he fires again. Then he suddenly fires a whole bunch of times at once. You don't have to see the gore. You don't have to see the man actually writhing all over the ground, not dying cleanly with a single gunshot. If you did, your mind would retreat into speculating about the special effects. The horror is much greater because the camera angle forces you to speculate on it. Similarly, you don't have to be told precisely what Morgoth intends to do with Luthien. You can imagine. Imagination makes it all the more horrible than if Tolkien showed you graphically what Morgoth can do with an elf maiden who falls into his clutches. If he told us, then the foul deed would have a boundary, a beginning and an end. But because he doesn't tell us, the mind says, "Maybe he'd do this...or this...or good heavens maybe even this!" and there is no boundary where the imagination can stop and say, "No more!"
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Subject
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User
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Time
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Tolkien at UVM
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Istar Indigo
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Jun 1 2009, 12:36am
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Thanks much for keeping this up-to-date.
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 1 2009, 1:35am
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I have an important reason to hijack this thread....
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weaver
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Jun 1 2009, 2:08am
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*snickers* He did try to sneak it by us...
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dernwyn
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Jun 1 2009, 2:26am
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Glad you were on the look out for him...
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weaver
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Jun 1 2009, 3:06am
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I'm crashing the RR just to join in these congrats
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Magpie
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Jun 1 2009, 2:00pm
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Huh?
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Tolkien Forever
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Jun 1 2009, 7:32am
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Well, they do have children.
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 1 2009, 4:23pm
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OF Course
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Tolkien Forever
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Jun 1 2009, 6:52pm
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Pedantic grammar point.
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Curious
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Jun 1 2009, 8:03pm
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I Wish
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Tolkien Forever
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Jun 1 2009, 9:24pm
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I'd go further than that.
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FarFromHome
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Jun 2 2009, 9:45am
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That's going too far, I judge.
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Curious
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Jun 2 2009, 10:42am
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How do you know?
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FarFromHome
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Jun 2 2009, 11:38am
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I know there is no mention of
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Curious
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Jun 2 2009, 12:59pm
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I'm sure you're right.
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FarFromHome
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Jun 2 2009, 3:15pm
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LotR is a feigned history,
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Curious
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Jun 2 2009, 3:42pm
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Good point.
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FarFromHome
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Jun 2 2009, 5:05pm
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Tolkien seems to have had a firm grasp
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Curious
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Jun 2 2009, 5:36pm
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****Caution: Naughty Word****
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Darkstone
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Jun 2 2009, 9:02pm
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Oh thank you!
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FarFromHome
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Jun 2 2009, 9:15pm
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Good catch! But I'm not sure what it proves.
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Curious
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Jun 2 2009, 10:49pm
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Actually, the "her" is Shelob, not Ungoliant
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Jun 2 2009, 11:57pm
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I don't see why
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Curious
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Jun 3 2009, 12:12am
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Because it says that her mates were her own offspring
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Jun 3 2009, 1:09am
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No, that makes sense.//
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Curious
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Jun 3 2009, 1:15am
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It proves...
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Darkstone
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Jun 3 2009, 9:59pm
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Blonde Gamgees
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 6 2009, 7:09pm
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That's an plausible theory, but it's only a theory.
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Curious
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Jun 7 2009, 9:00am
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That sounds much too hard-edged for Tolkien...
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FarFromHome
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Jun 7 2009, 10:33am
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Hints and allegations
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squire
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Jun 7 2009, 3:19pm
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Yes, I agree.
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FarFromHome
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Jun 7 2009, 4:24pm
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Middle-earth isn't idealized?
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Curious
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Jun 7 2009, 11:08pm
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This is really the nub...
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FarFromHome
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Jun 8 2009, 10:02am
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I'm glad you agree the stories are idealized,
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Curious
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Jun 8 2009, 10:39am
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I think I see.
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FarFromHome
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Jun 8 2009, 12:01pm
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One last quibble.
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Curious
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Jun 8 2009, 1:47pm
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To answer your quibble...
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FarFromHome
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Jun 8 2009, 2:43pm
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And the Akallabeth?
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Curious
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Jun 8 2009, 3:06pm
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Atheists in Atlantis
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 8 2009, 3:57pm
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So, if you think Sauron was lying,
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Curious
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Jun 8 2009, 5:34pm
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How about legend?
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FarFromHome
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Jun 8 2009, 4:16pm
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Point of clarification.
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Curious
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Jun 8 2009, 5:41pm
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Now you're putting...
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FarFromHome
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Jun 8 2009, 6:45pm
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No, I was just asking.
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Curious
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Jun 8 2009, 7:34pm
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There's always a way to explain
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 8 2009, 3:50pm
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But the elves are immortal.
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Curious
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Jun 8 2009, 5:31pm
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Nope, not me.
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 8 2009, 6:06pm
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But in the Silmarillion, the atheists
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Curious
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Jun 8 2009, 6:41pm
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And how does that differ from the Bible, exactly?
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 8 2009, 10:57pm
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But it is not plausible for Tolkien's readers
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Curious
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Jun 9 2009, 1:45pm
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Experience says otherwise
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 9 2009, 6:16pm
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But is it plausible that any reader
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Curious
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Jun 9 2009, 9:29pm
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It is possible, although there’s no way to know for sure.
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GaladrielTX
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Jun 9 2009, 11:26pm
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An entire subculture
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 11 2009, 12:08am
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Yes, but they don't think the narrator is lying
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Curious
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Jun 11 2009, 5:18am
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Some have said...
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 11 2009, 3:52pm
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We can speculate, of course. We
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Curious
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Jun 11 2009, 3:56pm
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But the elves
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FarFromHome
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Jun 8 2009, 6:54pm
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Realism and Fantasy
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 8 2009, 3:42pm
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Appendices and Fantasy
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Darkstone
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Jun 8 2009, 4:21pm
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I take a different approach.
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Curious
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Jun 8 2009, 5:26pm
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I think I am miscast
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 8 2009, 6:01pm
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So you know it when you see it?
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Curious
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Jun 8 2009, 6:37pm
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What are we talking about, exactly?
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 8 2009, 10:43pm
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Idealized characters are not necessarily flawless.
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Curious
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Jun 9 2009, 1:42pm
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Closer to agreement
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 9 2009, 6:12pm
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You meant Luthien, didn't you?
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sador
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Jun 9 2009, 6:20pm
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Doesn't prove it
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 9 2009, 6:30pm
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D'oh! I missed the most important part!
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sador
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Jun 10 2009, 5:51am
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Maeglin
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 11 2009, 12:11am
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I'm going out on a limb when I theorize
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Curious
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Jun 9 2009, 9:25pm
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I don't reject your theory. Do you reject mine?
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Curious
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Jun 7 2009, 7:50pm
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Not Bilbo!
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 7 2009, 9:31pm
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"Frankly, I think the Ring would have interfered with any kind of romance in his life."
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squire
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Jun 7 2009, 10:20pm
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Um...misunderstanding
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 8 2009, 2:08am
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Ummm...
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 6 2009, 6:58pm
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Well, not exactly...
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FarFromHome
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Jun 6 2009, 9:04pm
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Have you read N.E.B.'s report?
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sador
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Jun 2 2009, 5:05am
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Again....
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Tolkien Forever
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Jun 2 2009, 6:16am
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I see Bilbo and Frodo's bachelorhood as a price they pay
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Curious
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Jun 2 2009, 1:17pm
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plug for the UVM class reading!
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kejensenuvm
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Jun 7 2009, 3:06am
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Tolkien seems to go out of his way
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Curious
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Jun 7 2009, 9:15am
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Good point.
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FarFromHome
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Jun 7 2009, 5:27pm
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Fanfic, gender studies, and Timmons on hobbit sensuality
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Modtheow
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Jun 2 2009, 6:42pm
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One quibble.
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Curious
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Jun 2 2009, 7:21pm
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SEX! *hush!* ok, sex.
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squire
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Jun 2 2009, 10:03pm
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Of Course
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Tolkien Forever
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Jun 2 2009, 10:50pm
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One Incident
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Tolkien Forever
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Jun 3 2009, 7:48pm
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Yes, but
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Curious
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Jun 3 2009, 8:13pm
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Not Sure
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Tolkien Forever
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Jun 3 2009, 9:13pm
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I would assume that depends on his master plan
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Arwen's daughter
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Jun 3 2009, 9:24pm
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You know, I could argue even with that
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sador
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Jun 4 2009, 7:11am
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I Think
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Tolkien Forever
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Jun 4 2009, 2:05pm
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Hobbit sex
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Darkstone
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Jun 2 2009, 9:21pm
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Yes.
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FarFromHome
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Jun 3 2009, 10:06am
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breathing, eating, working, begetting...and
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a.s.
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Jun 3 2009, 11:07am
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A thought on your 'tangent'...
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FarFromHome
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Jun 3 2009, 11:28am
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Yes, older fairy stories are often sensual.
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Curious
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Jun 3 2009, 12:48pm
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Rising to the challenge
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 6 2009, 7:29pm
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Thanks and Congrats!
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Istar Indigo
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Jun 1 2009, 4:44pm
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Your innocent post
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Pryderi
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Jun 3 2009, 1:28am
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A preposition is something you shouldn't end a sentence with. /
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Darkstone
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Jun 3 2009, 3:07am
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Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put. /
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Atlas
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Jun 8 2009, 2:18am
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UVM students -- don't be shy, jump right in!
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 3 2009, 3:59am
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Thanks to all who replied to me and ok I will "chime in"
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Pryderi
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Jun 3 2009, 9:51pm
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I read an extensive analysis of The Hobbit along those lines once
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squire
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Jun 3 2009, 10:24pm
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In answer to your question: No We Can't.//
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Pryderi
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Jun 3 2009, 11:12pm
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That's a very interesting theory.
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Curious
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Jun 3 2009, 11:36pm
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Don't Buy It
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Tolkien Forever
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Jun 4 2009, 12:42am
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Even when it's on sale? Cheap?
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squire
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Jun 4 2009, 1:17am
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Been Here Before
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Tolkien Forever
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Jun 4 2009, 3:48am
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Horse liberation!
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 6 2009, 7:52pm
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Thank you Dreamdeer
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Pryderi
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Jun 6 2009, 10:45pm
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And Tolkien certainly recognized such symbolism in other stories.
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 4 2009, 2:00pm
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But not his own
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squire
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Jun 7 2009, 9:16pm
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Projection is certainly a danger.
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Curious
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Jun 4 2009, 7:38am
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Archetypes aren't allegories
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 6 2009, 7:49pm
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The feminine without the female.
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FarFromHome
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Jun 4 2009, 9:22am
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Not Done Yet
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Tolkien Forever
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Jun 4 2009, 2:17pm
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Well, you know how it is...
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FarFromHome
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Jun 5 2009, 7:41am
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I have staunch faith in heterosexual friendships
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 6 2009, 8:01pm
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Online....
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Tolkien Forever
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Jun 7 2009, 5:44pm
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Interesting premise!
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 6 2009, 7:40pm
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might as well try to stop the wind, as try to stop the RR when
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a.s.
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Jun 3 2009, 10:50am
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You can talk with the admins about it on Feedback.
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Curious
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Jun 3 2009, 1:08pm
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