|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jun 4 2009, 2:00pm
Views: 328
Shortcut
|
And Tolkien certainly recognized such symbolism in other stories.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Here is a passage from his essay on his own story, Smith of Wootton Major (I copied this from another site, but from memory I think it looks like the excerpt has been accurately transcribed):
Entry into the 'geographical' bounds of Faery also involves entry into Faery Time. How does a mortal 'enter' the geographical realm of Faery? Evidently not in dream or illusion. Physical objects, such as the star, the Living Flower, and the elvish toy, survive transplantation from Faery to the World. It is common in Fairy tales for the entrance to the fairy world to be presented as a journey underground, into a hill or mountain or the like. The origins of this do not concern me here. They lie largely in necrological imagination. But as used they are often mere 'rationalizations' - like the diminution in the size of 'elves' - a way of providing for a land of marvels within the same geography as that of Men. They are no more credible and no more interesting than Edgar Rice Burroughs tales dealing with a vast subterranean world. To me they kill the very kind of literary belief that they are supposed to produce. My symbol is not the underground, whether necrological and Orphic or pseudo-scientific in jargon, but the Forest: the regions still immune from human activities, not yet dominated by them (dominated! not conquered!). <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> We're discussing The Hobbit in the Reading Room, Mar. 23 - Aug. 9. Everyone is welcome! Join us June 1-7 for "On the Doorstep". +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= How to find old Reading Room discussions.
|
|
|
Subject
|
User
|
Time
|
Tolkien at UVM
|
Istar Indigo
|
Jun 1 2009, 12:36am
|
Thanks much for keeping this up-to-date.
|
N.E. Brigand
|
Jun 1 2009, 1:35am
|
I have an important reason to hijack this thread....
|
weaver
|
Jun 1 2009, 2:08am
|
*snickers* He did try to sneak it by us...
|
dernwyn
|
Jun 1 2009, 2:26am
|
Glad you were on the look out for him...
|
weaver
|
Jun 1 2009, 3:06am
|
I'm crashing the RR just to join in these congrats
|
Magpie
|
Jun 1 2009, 2:00pm
|
Huh?
|
Tolkien Forever
|
Jun 1 2009, 7:32am
|
Well, they do have children.
|
N.E. Brigand
|
Jun 1 2009, 4:23pm
|
OF Course
|
Tolkien Forever
|
Jun 1 2009, 6:52pm
|
Pedantic grammar point.
|
Curious
|
Jun 1 2009, 8:03pm
|
I Wish
|
Tolkien Forever
|
Jun 1 2009, 9:24pm
|
I'd go further than that.
|
FarFromHome
|
Jun 2 2009, 9:45am
|
That's going too far, I judge.
|
Curious
|
Jun 2 2009, 10:42am
|
How do you know?
|
FarFromHome
|
Jun 2 2009, 11:38am
|
I know there is no mention of
|
Curious
|
Jun 2 2009, 12:59pm
|
I'm sure you're right.
|
FarFromHome
|
Jun 2 2009, 3:15pm
|
LotR is a feigned history,
|
Curious
|
Jun 2 2009, 3:42pm
|
Good point.
|
FarFromHome
|
Jun 2 2009, 5:05pm
|
Tolkien seems to have had a firm grasp
|
Curious
|
Jun 2 2009, 5:36pm
|
****Caution: Naughty Word****
|
Darkstone
|
Jun 2 2009, 9:02pm
|
Oh thank you!
|
FarFromHome
|
Jun 2 2009, 9:15pm
|
Good catch! But I'm not sure what it proves.
|
Curious
|
Jun 2 2009, 10:49pm
|
Actually, the "her" is Shelob, not Ungoliant
|
Voronwë_the_Faithful
|
Jun 2 2009, 11:57pm
|
I don't see why
|
Curious
|
Jun 3 2009, 12:12am
|
Because it says that her mates were her own offspring
|
Voronwë_the_Faithful
|
Jun 3 2009, 1:09am
|
No, that makes sense.//
|
Curious
|
Jun 3 2009, 1:15am
|
It proves...
|
Darkstone
|
Jun 3 2009, 9:59pm
|
Blonde Gamgees
|
Dreamdeer
|
Jun 6 2009, 7:09pm
|
That's an plausible theory, but it's only a theory.
|
Curious
|
Jun 7 2009, 9:00am
|
That sounds much too hard-edged for Tolkien...
|
FarFromHome
|
Jun 7 2009, 10:33am
|
Hints and allegations
|
squire
|
Jun 7 2009, 3:19pm
|
Yes, I agree.
|
FarFromHome
|
Jun 7 2009, 4:24pm
|
Middle-earth isn't idealized?
|
Curious
|
Jun 7 2009, 11:08pm
|
This is really the nub...
|
FarFromHome
|
Jun 8 2009, 10:02am
|
I'm glad you agree the stories are idealized,
|
Curious
|
Jun 8 2009, 10:39am
|
I think I see.
|
FarFromHome
|
Jun 8 2009, 12:01pm
|
One last quibble.
|
Curious
|
Jun 8 2009, 1:47pm
|
To answer your quibble...
|
FarFromHome
|
Jun 8 2009, 2:43pm
|
And the Akallabeth?
|
Curious
|
Jun 8 2009, 3:06pm
|
Atheists in Atlantis
|
Dreamdeer
|
Jun 8 2009, 3:57pm
|
So, if you think Sauron was lying,
|
Curious
|
Jun 8 2009, 5:34pm
|
How about legend?
|
FarFromHome
|
Jun 8 2009, 4:16pm
|
Point of clarification.
|
Curious
|
Jun 8 2009, 5:41pm
|
Now you're putting...
|
FarFromHome
|
Jun 8 2009, 6:45pm
|
No, I was just asking.
|
Curious
|
Jun 8 2009, 7:34pm
|
There's always a way to explain
|
Dreamdeer
|
Jun 8 2009, 3:50pm
|
But the elves are immortal.
|
Curious
|
Jun 8 2009, 5:31pm
|
Nope, not me.
|
Dreamdeer
|
Jun 8 2009, 6:06pm
|
But in the Silmarillion, the atheists
|
Curious
|
Jun 8 2009, 6:41pm
|
And how does that differ from the Bible, exactly?
|
Dreamdeer
|
Jun 8 2009, 10:57pm
|
But it is not plausible for Tolkien's readers
|
Curious
|
Jun 9 2009, 1:45pm
|
Experience says otherwise
|
Dreamdeer
|
Jun 9 2009, 6:16pm
|
But is it plausible that any reader
|
Curious
|
Jun 9 2009, 9:29pm
|
It is possible, although there’s no way to know for sure.
|
GaladrielTX
|
Jun 9 2009, 11:26pm
|
An entire subculture
|
Dreamdeer
|
Jun 11 2009, 12:08am
|
Yes, but they don't think the narrator is lying
|
Curious
|
Jun 11 2009, 5:18am
|
Some have said...
|
Dreamdeer
|
Jun 11 2009, 3:52pm
|
We can speculate, of course. We
|
Curious
|
Jun 11 2009, 3:56pm
|
But the elves
|
FarFromHome
|
Jun 8 2009, 6:54pm
|
Realism and Fantasy
|
Dreamdeer
|
Jun 8 2009, 3:42pm
|
Appendices and Fantasy
|
Darkstone
|
Jun 8 2009, 4:21pm
|
I take a different approach.
|
Curious
|
Jun 8 2009, 5:26pm
|
I think I am miscast
|
Dreamdeer
|
Jun 8 2009, 6:01pm
|
So you know it when you see it?
|
Curious
|
Jun 8 2009, 6:37pm
|
What are we talking about, exactly?
|
Dreamdeer
|
Jun 8 2009, 10:43pm
|
Idealized characters are not necessarily flawless.
|
Curious
|
Jun 9 2009, 1:42pm
|
Closer to agreement
|
Dreamdeer
|
Jun 9 2009, 6:12pm
|
You meant Luthien, didn't you?
|
sador
|
Jun 9 2009, 6:20pm
|
Doesn't prove it
|
Dreamdeer
|
Jun 9 2009, 6:30pm
|
D'oh! I missed the most important part!
|
sador
|
Jun 10 2009, 5:51am
|
Maeglin
|
Dreamdeer
|
Jun 11 2009, 12:11am
|
I'm going out on a limb when I theorize
|
Curious
|
Jun 9 2009, 9:25pm
|
I don't reject your theory. Do you reject mine?
|
Curious
|
Jun 7 2009, 7:50pm
|
Not Bilbo!
|
Dreamdeer
|
Jun 7 2009, 9:31pm
|
"Frankly, I think the Ring would have interfered with any kind of romance in his life."
|
squire
|
Jun 7 2009, 10:20pm
|
Um...misunderstanding
|
Dreamdeer
|
Jun 8 2009, 2:08am
|
Ummm...
|
Dreamdeer
|
Jun 6 2009, 6:58pm
|
Well, not exactly...
|
FarFromHome
|
Jun 6 2009, 9:04pm
|
Have you read N.E.B.'s report?
|
sador
|
Jun 2 2009, 5:05am
|
Again....
|
Tolkien Forever
|
Jun 2 2009, 6:16am
|
I see Bilbo and Frodo's bachelorhood as a price they pay
|
Curious
|
Jun 2 2009, 1:17pm
|
plug for the UVM class reading!
|
kejensenuvm
|
Jun 7 2009, 3:06am
|
Tolkien seems to go out of his way
|
Curious
|
Jun 7 2009, 9:15am
|
Good point.
|
FarFromHome
|
Jun 7 2009, 5:27pm
|
Fanfic, gender studies, and Timmons on hobbit sensuality
|
Modtheow
|
Jun 2 2009, 6:42pm
|
One quibble.
|
Curious
|
Jun 2 2009, 7:21pm
|
SEX! *hush!* ok, sex.
|
squire
|
Jun 2 2009, 10:03pm
|
Of Course
|
Tolkien Forever
|
Jun 2 2009, 10:50pm
|
One Incident
|
Tolkien Forever
|
Jun 3 2009, 7:48pm
|
Yes, but
|
Curious
|
Jun 3 2009, 8:13pm
|
Not Sure
|
Tolkien Forever
|
Jun 3 2009, 9:13pm
|
I would assume that depends on his master plan
|
Arwen's daughter
|
Jun 3 2009, 9:24pm
|
You know, I could argue even with that
|
sador
|
Jun 4 2009, 7:11am
|
I Think
|
Tolkien Forever
|
Jun 4 2009, 2:05pm
|
Hobbit sex
|
Darkstone
|
Jun 2 2009, 9:21pm
|
Yes.
|
FarFromHome
|
Jun 3 2009, 10:06am
|
breathing, eating, working, begetting...and
|
a.s.
|
Jun 3 2009, 11:07am
|
A thought on your 'tangent'...
|
FarFromHome
|
Jun 3 2009, 11:28am
|
Yes, older fairy stories are often sensual.
|
Curious
|
Jun 3 2009, 12:48pm
|
Rising to the challenge
|
Dreamdeer
|
Jun 6 2009, 7:29pm
|
Thanks and Congrats!
|
Istar Indigo
|
Jun 1 2009, 4:44pm
|
Your innocent post
|
Pryderi
|
Jun 3 2009, 1:28am
|
A preposition is something you shouldn't end a sentence with. /
|
Darkstone
|
Jun 3 2009, 3:07am
|
Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put. /
|
Atlas
|
Jun 8 2009, 2:18am
|
UVM students -- don't be shy, jump right in!
|
N.E. Brigand
|
Jun 3 2009, 3:59am
|
Thanks to all who replied to me and ok I will "chime in"
|
Pryderi
|
Jun 3 2009, 9:51pm
|
I read an extensive analysis of The Hobbit along those lines once
|
squire
|
Jun 3 2009, 10:24pm
|
In answer to your question: No We Can't.//
|
Pryderi
|
Jun 3 2009, 11:12pm
|
That's a very interesting theory.
|
Curious
|
Jun 3 2009, 11:36pm
|
Don't Buy It
|
Tolkien Forever
|
Jun 4 2009, 12:42am
|
Even when it's on sale? Cheap?
|
squire
|
Jun 4 2009, 1:17am
|
Been Here Before
|
Tolkien Forever
|
Jun 4 2009, 3:48am
|
Horse liberation!
|
Dreamdeer
|
Jun 6 2009, 7:52pm
|
Thank you Dreamdeer
|
Pryderi
|
Jun 6 2009, 10:45pm
|
And Tolkien certainly recognized such symbolism in other stories.
|
N.E. Brigand
|
Jun 4 2009, 2:00pm
|
But not his own
|
squire
|
Jun 7 2009, 9:16pm
|
Projection is certainly a danger.
|
Curious
|
Jun 4 2009, 7:38am
|
Archetypes aren't allegories
|
Dreamdeer
|
Jun 6 2009, 7:49pm
|
The feminine without the female.
|
FarFromHome
|
Jun 4 2009, 9:22am
|
Not Done Yet
|
Tolkien Forever
|
Jun 4 2009, 2:17pm
|
Well, you know how it is...
|
FarFromHome
|
Jun 5 2009, 7:41am
|
I have staunch faith in heterosexual friendships
|
Dreamdeer
|
Jun 6 2009, 8:01pm
|
Online....
|
Tolkien Forever
|
Jun 7 2009, 5:44pm
|
Interesting premise!
|
Dreamdeer
|
Jun 6 2009, 7:40pm
|
might as well try to stop the wind, as try to stop the RR when
|
a.s.
|
Jun 3 2009, 10:50am
|
You can talk with the admins about it on Feedback.
|
Curious
|
Jun 3 2009, 1:08pm
|
|
|
|