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And Tolkien certainly recognized such symbolism in other stories.

N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jun 4 2009, 2:00pm


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And Tolkien certainly recognized such symbolism in other stories. [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is a passage from his essay on his own story, Smith of Wootton Major (I copied this from another site, but from memory I think it looks like the excerpt has been accurately transcribed):


Quote
Entry into the 'geographical' bounds of Faery also involves entry into Faery Time. How does a mortal 'enter' the geographical realm of Faery? Evidently not in dream or illusion. Physical objects, such as the star, the Living Flower, and the elvish toy, survive transplantation from Faery to the World. It is common in Fairy tales for the entrance to the fairy world to be presented as a journey underground, into a hill or mountain or the like. The origins of this do not concern me here. They lie largely in necrological imagination. But as used they are often mere 'rationalizations' - like the diminution in the size of 'elves' - a way of providing for a land of marvels within the same geography as that of Men. They are no more credible and no more interesting than Edgar Rice Burroughs tales dealing with a vast subterranean world. To me they kill the very kind of literary belief that they are supposed to produce.
My symbol is not the underground, whether necrological and Orphic or pseudo-scientific in jargon, but the Forest: the regions still immune from human activities, not yet dominated by them (dominated! not conquered!).


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Tolkien at UVM Istar Indigo Send a private message to Istar Indigo Jun 1 2009, 12:36am
    Thanks much for keeping this up-to-date. N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Jun 1 2009, 1:35am
        I have an important reason to hijack this thread.... weaver Send a private message to weaver Jun 1 2009, 2:08am
            *snickers* He did try to sneak it by us... dernwyn Send a private message to dernwyn Jun 1 2009, 2:26am
                Glad you were on the look out for him... weaver Send a private message to weaver Jun 1 2009, 3:06am
            I'm crashing the RR just to join in these congrats Magpie Send a private message to Magpie Jun 1 2009, 2:00pm
        Huh? Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Jun 1 2009, 7:32am
            Well, they do have children. N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Jun 1 2009, 4:23pm
                OF Course Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Jun 1 2009, 6:52pm
                    Pedantic grammar point. Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 1 2009, 8:03pm
                        I Wish Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Jun 1 2009, 9:24pm
                        I'd go further than that. FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jun 2 2009, 9:45am
                            That's going too far, I judge. Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 2 2009, 10:42am
                                How do you know? FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jun 2 2009, 11:38am
                                    I know there is no mention of Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 2 2009, 12:59pm
                                        I'm sure you're right. FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jun 2 2009, 3:15pm
                                            LotR is a feigned history, Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 2 2009, 3:42pm
                                                Good point. FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jun 2 2009, 5:05pm
                                                    Tolkien seems to have had a firm grasp Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 2 2009, 5:36pm
                                        ****Caution: Naughty Word**** Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Jun 2 2009, 9:02pm
                                            Oh thank you! FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jun 2 2009, 9:15pm
                                            Good catch! But I'm not sure what it proves. Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 2 2009, 10:49pm
                                                Actually, the "her" is Shelob, not Ungoliant Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Jun 2 2009, 11:57pm
                                                    I don't see why Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 3 2009, 12:12am
                                                        Because it says that her mates were her own offspring Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Jun 3 2009, 1:09am
                                                            No, that makes sense.// Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 3 2009, 1:15am
                                                It proves... Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Jun 3 2009, 9:59pm
                                Blonde Gamgees Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Jun 6 2009, 7:09pm
                                    That's an plausible theory, but it's only a theory. Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 7 2009, 9:00am
                                        That sounds much too hard-edged for Tolkien... FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jun 7 2009, 10:33am
                                            Hints and allegations squire Send a private message to squire Jun 7 2009, 3:19pm
                                                Yes, I agree. FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jun 7 2009, 4:24pm
                                                    Middle-earth isn't idealized? Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 7 2009, 11:08pm
                                                        This is really the nub... FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jun 8 2009, 10:02am
                                                            I'm glad you agree the stories are idealized, Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 8 2009, 10:39am
                                                                I think I see. FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jun 8 2009, 12:01pm
                                                                    One last quibble. Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 8 2009, 1:47pm
                                                                        To answer your quibble... FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jun 8 2009, 2:43pm
                                                                            And the Akallabeth? Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 8 2009, 3:06pm
                                                                                Atheists in Atlantis Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Jun 8 2009, 3:57pm
                                                                                    So, if you think Sauron was lying, Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 8 2009, 5:34pm
                                                                                How about legend? FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jun 8 2009, 4:16pm
                                                                                    Point of clarification. Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 8 2009, 5:41pm
                                                                                        Now you're putting... FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jun 8 2009, 6:45pm
                                                                                            No, I was just asking. Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 8 2009, 7:34pm
                                                                        There's always a way to explain Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Jun 8 2009, 3:50pm
                                                                            But the elves are immortal. Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 8 2009, 5:31pm
                                                                                Nope, not me. Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Jun 8 2009, 6:06pm
                                                                                    But in the Silmarillion, the atheists Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 8 2009, 6:41pm
                                                                                        And how does that differ from the Bible, exactly? Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Jun 8 2009, 10:57pm
                                                                                            But it is not plausible for Tolkien's readers Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 9 2009, 1:45pm
                                                                                                Experience says otherwise Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Jun 9 2009, 6:16pm
                                                                                                    But is it plausible that any reader Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 9 2009, 9:29pm
                                                                                                        It is possible, although there’s no way to know for sure. GaladrielTX Send a private message to GaladrielTX Jun 9 2009, 11:26pm
                                                                                                        An entire subculture Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Jun 11 2009, 12:08am
                                                                                                            Yes, but they don't think the narrator is lying Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 11 2009, 5:18am
                                                                                                                Some have said... Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Jun 11 2009, 3:52pm
                                                                                                                    We can speculate, of course. We Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 11 2009, 3:56pm
                                                                                But the elves FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jun 8 2009, 6:54pm
                                                                Realism and Fantasy Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Jun 8 2009, 3:42pm
                                                                    Appendices and Fantasy Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Jun 8 2009, 4:21pm
                                                                    I take a different approach. Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 8 2009, 5:26pm
                                                                        I think I am miscast Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Jun 8 2009, 6:01pm
                                                                            So you know it when you see it? Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 8 2009, 6:37pm
                                                                                What are we talking about, exactly? Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Jun 8 2009, 10:43pm
                                                                                    Idealized characters are not necessarily flawless. Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 9 2009, 1:42pm
                                                                                        Closer to agreement Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Jun 9 2009, 6:12pm
                                                                                            You meant Luthien, didn't you? sador Send a private message to sador Jun 9 2009, 6:20pm
                                                                                                Doesn't prove it Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Jun 9 2009, 6:30pm
                                                                                                    D'oh! I missed the most important part! sador Send a private message to sador Jun 10 2009, 5:51am
                                                                                                        Maeglin Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Jun 11 2009, 12:11am
                                                                                            I'm going out on a limb when I theorize Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 9 2009, 9:25pm
                                            I don't reject your theory. Do you reject mine? Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 7 2009, 7:50pm
                                        Not Bilbo! Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Jun 7 2009, 9:31pm
                                            "Frankly, I think the Ring would have interfered with any kind of romance in his life." squire Send a private message to squire Jun 7 2009, 10:20pm
                                                Um...misunderstanding Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Jun 8 2009, 2:08am
                            Ummm... Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Jun 6 2009, 6:58pm
                                Well, not exactly... FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jun 6 2009, 9:04pm
            Have you read N.E.B.'s report? sador Send a private message to sador Jun 2 2009, 5:05am
                Again.... Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Jun 2 2009, 6:16am
                I see Bilbo and Frodo's bachelorhood as a price they pay Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 2 2009, 1:17pm
                    plug for the UVM class reading! kejensenuvm Send a private message to kejensenuvm Jun 7 2009, 3:06am
                        Tolkien seems to go out of his way Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 7 2009, 9:15am
                        Good point. FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jun 7 2009, 5:27pm
                Fanfic, gender studies, and Timmons on hobbit sensuality Modtheow Send a private message to Modtheow Jun 2 2009, 6:42pm
                    One quibble. Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 2 2009, 7:21pm
                    SEX! *hush!* ok, sex. squire Send a private message to squire Jun 2 2009, 10:03pm
                        Of Course Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Jun 2 2009, 10:50pm
                            One Incident Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Jun 3 2009, 7:48pm
                                Yes, but Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 3 2009, 8:13pm
                                    Not Sure Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Jun 3 2009, 9:13pm
                                    I would assume that depends on his master plan Arwen's daughter Send a private message to Arwen's daughter Jun 3 2009, 9:24pm
                                You know, I could argue even with that sador Send a private message to sador Jun 4 2009, 7:11am
                                    I Think Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Jun 4 2009, 2:05pm
            Hobbit sex Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Jun 2 2009, 9:21pm
                Yes. FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jun 3 2009, 10:06am
                    breathing, eating, working, begetting...and a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Jun 3 2009, 11:07am
                        A thought on your 'tangent'... FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jun 3 2009, 11:28am
                        Yes, older fairy stories are often sensual. Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 3 2009, 12:48pm
                        Rising to the challenge Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Jun 6 2009, 7:29pm
        Thanks and Congrats! Istar Indigo Send a private message to Istar Indigo Jun 1 2009, 4:44pm
        Your innocent post Pryderi Send a private message to Pryderi Jun 3 2009, 1:28am
            A preposition is something you shouldn't end a sentence with. / Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Jun 3 2009, 3:07am
                Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put. / Atlas Send a private message to Atlas Jun 8 2009, 2:18am
            UVM students -- don't be shy, jump right in! N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Jun 3 2009, 3:59am
                Thanks to all who replied to me and ok I will "chime in" Pryderi Send a private message to Pryderi Jun 3 2009, 9:51pm
                    I read an extensive analysis of The Hobbit along those lines once squire Send a private message to squire Jun 3 2009, 10:24pm
                        In answer to your question: No We Can't.// Pryderi Send a private message to Pryderi Jun 3 2009, 11:12pm
                    That's a very interesting theory. Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 3 2009, 11:36pm
                    Don't Buy It Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Jun 4 2009, 12:42am
                        Even when it's on sale? Cheap? squire Send a private message to squire Jun 4 2009, 1:17am
                            Been Here Before Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Jun 4 2009, 3:48am
                                Horse liberation! Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Jun 6 2009, 7:52pm
                                    Thank you Dreamdeer Pryderi Send a private message to Pryderi Jun 6 2009, 10:45pm
                            And Tolkien certainly recognized such symbolism in other stories. N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Jun 4 2009, 2:00pm
                                But not his own squire Send a private message to squire Jun 7 2009, 9:16pm
                        Projection is certainly a danger. Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 4 2009, 7:38am
                        Archetypes aren't allegories Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Jun 6 2009, 7:49pm
                    The feminine without the female. FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jun 4 2009, 9:22am
                        Not Done Yet Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Jun 4 2009, 2:17pm
                            Well, you know how it is... FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jun 5 2009, 7:41am
                            I have staunch faith in heterosexual friendships Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Jun 6 2009, 8:01pm
                                Online.... Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Jun 7 2009, 5:44pm
                    Interesting premise! Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Jun 6 2009, 7:40pm
            might as well try to stop the wind, as try to stop the RR when a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Jun 3 2009, 10:50am
            You can talk with the admins about it on Feedback. Curious Send a private message to Curious Jun 3 2009, 1:08pm

 
 
 

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