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Pryderi
Rivendell
Jun 3 2009, 9:51pm
Views: 448
Shortcut
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Thanks to all who replied to me and ok I will "chime in"
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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My ideas are more on gender than on sex: how Tolkien portrays males and females of various "races" rather than on whether, and on what basis, they copulate with each other. As I have said before I was distressed by Stimpson's famous article when I inadvertently came across it shortly after it had been published. As a result I have been thinking about the issue of Tolkien's portrayal of women and female "creatures", in general, for a long time. In my view his high regard for women cannot be doubted: particularly in their role as mothers. It is quite a useful exercise, I have found, to recast the hobbit genealogies in the appendices as though the family propagated through the female rather than the male line. I never completed the project, because I never do, but I think you would find that, despite the apparently male dominated story, the great matriarch Adamanta Chubb presided over all the (male) descendents we hear about. Indeed if the mother's name were inherited by the children rather than the father's then most of our heros would (rather boringly) be Chubbs. Well we all know about Tolkien's regard for his own mother so perhaps this is not surprising but his female characters are not just maternal. They are often extremely active. My own favourite is probably Haleth (and her "folk"). There are sort of hints in the Silmarillion of the second house of the Edain being matriarchal although, apart from Haleth, they are led by men. "The Wanderings of Hurin" somewhere in HoME ( I forget) makes it more explicit that women have a strong role to play in the community of the Haladin. On a different tack I came across a pile of books all called "modern children's literature: an introduction" (the lack of capitalisation is as on the cover) in a University bookshop a year or so ago. It was clearly a student text but as I have always been interested in children's literature I bought the top copy on the pile because it contained an essay by one Susan Hancock entitled "Fantasy Psychology and Feminism: Jungian Readings of Classic British Fantasy Fiction" and was clearly a "compare and contrast" between "The Hobbit" and "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe". Well I certainly enjoyed reading it! Hancock finds that the feminine is writ large in The Hobbit despite the lack of female characters. She explains to her audience that Belladonna is the only explicit female character but goes on to claim that the major female character is Middle Earth itself. Her most quotable quote is as follows: "Gandalf, who may be interpreted as an image of the Wise Old Man archetype.......comes to wrest Bilbo Baggins away from the womb like space, to propel him down a 'tube shaped hall like a tunnel' and out through a 'perfectly round door'". She goes on to point out that Beorn is the main character who contains both masculine and feminine elements because he is a vegetarian and likes animals as well as being a warrior. I have to say that despite my natural cynicism, I could see her point. Her major point seems to be that The Hobbit is a children's book which embraces the feminine while contrasting it with The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe which, she claims, does not. Do any of you have any thoughts on this? Having lurked for long enough I would not be surprised if one of you turned out to be Susan Hancock! Pryderi.
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Subject
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User
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Time
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Tolkien at UVM
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Istar Indigo
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Jun 1 2009, 12:36am
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Thanks much for keeping this up-to-date.
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 1 2009, 1:35am
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I have an important reason to hijack this thread....
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weaver
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Jun 1 2009, 2:08am
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*snickers* He did try to sneak it by us...
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dernwyn
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Jun 1 2009, 2:26am
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Glad you were on the look out for him...
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weaver
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Jun 1 2009, 3:06am
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I'm crashing the RR just to join in these congrats
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Magpie
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Jun 1 2009, 2:00pm
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Huh?
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Tolkien Forever
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Jun 1 2009, 7:32am
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Well, they do have children.
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 1 2009, 4:23pm
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OF Course
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Tolkien Forever
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Jun 1 2009, 6:52pm
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Pedantic grammar point.
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Curious
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Jun 1 2009, 8:03pm
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I Wish
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Tolkien Forever
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Jun 1 2009, 9:24pm
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I'd go further than that.
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FarFromHome
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Jun 2 2009, 9:45am
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That's going too far, I judge.
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Curious
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Jun 2 2009, 10:42am
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How do you know?
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FarFromHome
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Jun 2 2009, 11:38am
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I know there is no mention of
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Curious
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Jun 2 2009, 12:59pm
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I'm sure you're right.
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FarFromHome
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Jun 2 2009, 3:15pm
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LotR is a feigned history,
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Curious
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Jun 2 2009, 3:42pm
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Good point.
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FarFromHome
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Jun 2 2009, 5:05pm
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Tolkien seems to have had a firm grasp
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Curious
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Jun 2 2009, 5:36pm
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****Caution: Naughty Word****
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Darkstone
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Jun 2 2009, 9:02pm
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Oh thank you!
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FarFromHome
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Jun 2 2009, 9:15pm
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Good catch! But I'm not sure what it proves.
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Curious
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Jun 2 2009, 10:49pm
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Actually, the "her" is Shelob, not Ungoliant
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Jun 2 2009, 11:57pm
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I don't see why
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Curious
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Jun 3 2009, 12:12am
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Because it says that her mates were her own offspring
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Jun 3 2009, 1:09am
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No, that makes sense.//
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Curious
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Jun 3 2009, 1:15am
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It proves...
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Darkstone
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Jun 3 2009, 9:59pm
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Blonde Gamgees
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 6 2009, 7:09pm
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That's an plausible theory, but it's only a theory.
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Curious
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Jun 7 2009, 9:00am
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That sounds much too hard-edged for Tolkien...
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FarFromHome
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Jun 7 2009, 10:33am
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Hints and allegations
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squire
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Jun 7 2009, 3:19pm
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Yes, I agree.
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FarFromHome
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Jun 7 2009, 4:24pm
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Middle-earth isn't idealized?
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Curious
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Jun 7 2009, 11:08pm
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This is really the nub...
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FarFromHome
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Jun 8 2009, 10:02am
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I'm glad you agree the stories are idealized,
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Curious
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Jun 8 2009, 10:39am
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I think I see.
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FarFromHome
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Jun 8 2009, 12:01pm
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One last quibble.
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Curious
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Jun 8 2009, 1:47pm
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To answer your quibble...
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FarFromHome
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Jun 8 2009, 2:43pm
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And the Akallabeth?
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Curious
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Jun 8 2009, 3:06pm
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Atheists in Atlantis
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 8 2009, 3:57pm
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So, if you think Sauron was lying,
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Curious
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Jun 8 2009, 5:34pm
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How about legend?
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FarFromHome
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Jun 8 2009, 4:16pm
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Point of clarification.
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Curious
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Jun 8 2009, 5:41pm
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Now you're putting...
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FarFromHome
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Jun 8 2009, 6:45pm
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No, I was just asking.
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Curious
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Jun 8 2009, 7:34pm
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There's always a way to explain
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 8 2009, 3:50pm
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But the elves are immortal.
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Curious
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Jun 8 2009, 5:31pm
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Nope, not me.
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 8 2009, 6:06pm
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But in the Silmarillion, the atheists
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Curious
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Jun 8 2009, 6:41pm
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And how does that differ from the Bible, exactly?
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 8 2009, 10:57pm
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But it is not plausible for Tolkien's readers
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Curious
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Jun 9 2009, 1:45pm
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Experience says otherwise
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 9 2009, 6:16pm
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But is it plausible that any reader
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Curious
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Jun 9 2009, 9:29pm
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It is possible, although there’s no way to know for sure.
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GaladrielTX
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Jun 9 2009, 11:26pm
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An entire subculture
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 11 2009, 12:08am
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Yes, but they don't think the narrator is lying
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Curious
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Jun 11 2009, 5:18am
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Some have said...
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 11 2009, 3:52pm
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We can speculate, of course. We
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Curious
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Jun 11 2009, 3:56pm
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But the elves
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FarFromHome
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Jun 8 2009, 6:54pm
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Realism and Fantasy
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 8 2009, 3:42pm
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Appendices and Fantasy
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Darkstone
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Jun 8 2009, 4:21pm
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I take a different approach.
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Curious
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Jun 8 2009, 5:26pm
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I think I am miscast
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 8 2009, 6:01pm
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So you know it when you see it?
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Curious
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Jun 8 2009, 6:37pm
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What are we talking about, exactly?
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 8 2009, 10:43pm
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Idealized characters are not necessarily flawless.
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Curious
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Jun 9 2009, 1:42pm
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Closer to agreement
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 9 2009, 6:12pm
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You meant Luthien, didn't you?
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sador
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Jun 9 2009, 6:20pm
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Doesn't prove it
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 9 2009, 6:30pm
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D'oh! I missed the most important part!
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sador
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Jun 10 2009, 5:51am
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Maeglin
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 11 2009, 12:11am
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I'm going out on a limb when I theorize
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Curious
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Jun 9 2009, 9:25pm
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I don't reject your theory. Do you reject mine?
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Curious
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Jun 7 2009, 7:50pm
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Not Bilbo!
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 7 2009, 9:31pm
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"Frankly, I think the Ring would have interfered with any kind of romance in his life."
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squire
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Jun 7 2009, 10:20pm
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Um...misunderstanding
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 8 2009, 2:08am
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Ummm...
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 6 2009, 6:58pm
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Well, not exactly...
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FarFromHome
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Jun 6 2009, 9:04pm
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Have you read N.E.B.'s report?
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sador
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Jun 2 2009, 5:05am
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Again....
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Tolkien Forever
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Jun 2 2009, 6:16am
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I see Bilbo and Frodo's bachelorhood as a price they pay
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Curious
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Jun 2 2009, 1:17pm
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plug for the UVM class reading!
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kejensenuvm
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Jun 7 2009, 3:06am
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Tolkien seems to go out of his way
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Curious
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Jun 7 2009, 9:15am
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Good point.
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FarFromHome
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Jun 7 2009, 5:27pm
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Fanfic, gender studies, and Timmons on hobbit sensuality
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Modtheow
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Jun 2 2009, 6:42pm
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One quibble.
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Curious
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Jun 2 2009, 7:21pm
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SEX! *hush!* ok, sex.
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squire
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Jun 2 2009, 10:03pm
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Of Course
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Tolkien Forever
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Jun 2 2009, 10:50pm
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One Incident
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Tolkien Forever
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Jun 3 2009, 7:48pm
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Yes, but
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Curious
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Jun 3 2009, 8:13pm
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Not Sure
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Tolkien Forever
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Jun 3 2009, 9:13pm
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I would assume that depends on his master plan
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Arwen's daughter
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Jun 3 2009, 9:24pm
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You know, I could argue even with that
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sador
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Jun 4 2009, 7:11am
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I Think
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Tolkien Forever
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Jun 4 2009, 2:05pm
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Hobbit sex
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Darkstone
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Jun 2 2009, 9:21pm
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Yes.
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FarFromHome
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Jun 3 2009, 10:06am
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breathing, eating, working, begetting...and
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a.s.
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Jun 3 2009, 11:07am
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A thought on your 'tangent'...
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FarFromHome
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Jun 3 2009, 11:28am
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Yes, older fairy stories are often sensual.
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Curious
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Jun 3 2009, 12:48pm
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Rising to the challenge
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 6 2009, 7:29pm
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Thanks and Congrats!
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Istar Indigo
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Jun 1 2009, 4:44pm
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Your innocent post
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Pryderi
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Jun 3 2009, 1:28am
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A preposition is something you shouldn't end a sentence with. /
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Darkstone
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Jun 3 2009, 3:07am
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Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put. /
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Atlas
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Jun 8 2009, 2:18am
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UVM students -- don't be shy, jump right in!
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 3 2009, 3:59am
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Thanks to all who replied to me and ok I will "chime in"
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Pryderi
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Jun 3 2009, 9:51pm
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I read an extensive analysis of The Hobbit along those lines once
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squire
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Jun 3 2009, 10:24pm
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In answer to your question: No We Can't.//
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Pryderi
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Jun 3 2009, 11:12pm
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That's a very interesting theory.
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Curious
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Jun 3 2009, 11:36pm
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Don't Buy It
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Tolkien Forever
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Jun 4 2009, 12:42am
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Even when it's on sale? Cheap?
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squire
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Jun 4 2009, 1:17am
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Been Here Before
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Tolkien Forever
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Jun 4 2009, 3:48am
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Horse liberation!
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 6 2009, 7:52pm
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Thank you Dreamdeer
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Pryderi
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Jun 6 2009, 10:45pm
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And Tolkien certainly recognized such symbolism in other stories.
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N.E. Brigand
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Jun 4 2009, 2:00pm
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But not his own
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squire
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Jun 7 2009, 9:16pm
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Projection is certainly a danger.
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Curious
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Jun 4 2009, 7:38am
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Archetypes aren't allegories
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 6 2009, 7:49pm
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The feminine without the female.
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FarFromHome
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Jun 4 2009, 9:22am
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Not Done Yet
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Tolkien Forever
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Jun 4 2009, 2:17pm
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Well, you know how it is...
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FarFromHome
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Jun 5 2009, 7:41am
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I have staunch faith in heterosexual friendships
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 6 2009, 8:01pm
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Online....
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Tolkien Forever
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Jun 7 2009, 5:44pm
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Interesting premise!
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Dreamdeer
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Jun 6 2009, 7:40pm
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might as well try to stop the wind, as try to stop the RR when
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a.s.
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Jun 3 2009, 10:50am
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You can talk with the admins about it on Feedback.
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Curious
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Jun 3 2009, 1:08pm
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