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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Onward turning...

Dreamdeer
Valinor


Apr 20 2009, 9:46pm


Views: 292
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Onward turning... [In reply to] Can't Post

Regarding orcs, I fear that you're going to wince at this, too, but Shagrat's concerns to keep Frodo out of Grishnak's clutches "when you're mad for fun" did not speak to me of honorable intentions on Grishnak's part. The rape of prisoners was a well-known tactic in WWI for breaking them down, particularly as used by Turks against Allies. Lawrence of Arabia received quite a bit of press when it came out that he had been raped in captivity. Vikings also routinely raped prisoners, and did not consider it a homosexual act if perpetrated on a captive. And the commonness of this practice against prisoners during the Crusades is the reason that shouting a certain four-letter verb followed by "you!" has come down to us as a curse rather than a blessing. Tolkien would never state anything so distasteful out loud in bald print, but he knew about such things, and might have subtly alluded to this sort of abuse as a danger, at least, in the tower of Cirith Ungol.

On a brighter note, I respectfully and hesitantly disagree about Gimli. I think that Gimli's love for Galadriel shows all the earmarks of Courtly Love, which is often simultaneously lustful and chaste. It shines with a certain poignancy, unrequitable, sweetly melancholy, a virtuous and self-controlled yearning from a creature with too few females of his own kind, suddenly encountering sympathy in this magnificently androgenous elven female (androgeny being important to a dwarf, to whom too much gender distinction might seem grotesque) and yet knowing her not only alien in kind but married as well, and far beyond his reach in so many ways. And though she does not reciprocate in desire, Galadriel seems flattered, and honors him above the lovesick Celebrimbor, and delights in becoming his inspiration, his saint, his partner in almost-taboo boldness, his Lady in Domnei, giving him a lady's favor to carry with him always.

But you're absolutely right, not all love is lustful. I do not see the same need for wistful self-control in Sam towards Frodo. Otherwise Frodo, Sam, and Rose all living together in Bag End would have become unbearably fraught with tension!

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!

Subject User Time
Tolkien 2009 in Vermont – a report N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Apr 19 2009, 5:58am
    Thoughts. Curious Send a private message to Curious Apr 19 2009, 10:51pm
    Just a few thoughts. Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Apr 20 2009, 1:02am
    A few answers, some to the point sador Send a private message to sador Apr 20 2009, 10:14am
        FFH it was! N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Apr 20 2009, 10:31pm
            Woah! FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Apr 21 2009, 8:57am
    A few answers (second installment) sador Send a private message to sador Apr 20 2009, 1:32pm
    Quack, quack ... visualweasel Send a private message to visualweasel Apr 20 2009, 5:45pm
        Yes, Gríma too, good catch. And how about lust for the Ring? Or other lusts? Curious Send a private message to Curious Apr 20 2009, 5:56pm
            Onward turning... Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Apr 20 2009, 9:46pm
                Tolkien had a higher regard for Curious Send a private message to Curious Apr 20 2009, 10:58pm
                    True, but ... visualweasel Send a private message to visualweasel Apr 21 2009, 1:56pm
                        We don't get to know Arwen. Curious Send a private message to Curious Apr 21 2009, 2:45pm
            Ring Writhes Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Apr 20 2009, 9:49pm
        Those who argue that are, of course, wrong Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Apr 20 2009, 10:54pm
    Blushing in the metaphorical dark, I'll give a lame answer (or two) squire Send a private message to squire Apr 20 2009, 11:08pm
        I would love to hear Ian McKellen read that passage! It reminds me Curious Send a private message to Curious Apr 21 2009, 5:43am
            What a great clip! visualweasel Send a private message to visualweasel Apr 21 2009, 1:52pm
    **stands up straight, salutes NEB..**. weaver Send a private message to weaver Apr 21 2009, 6:06am
    Ah, Springtime in Vermont dernwyn Send a private message to dernwyn Apr 22 2009, 12:42am
        Duck lollipop Curious Send a private message to Curious Apr 22 2009, 1:46am
            Quack! dernwyn Send a private message to dernwyn Apr 22 2009, 2:11am
        More than UUT Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Apr 22 2009, 3:44am
            Yes, we did. Eowyn of Penns Woods Send a private message to Eowyn of Penns Woods Apr 22 2009, 4:18am
            You did already sador Send a private message to sador Apr 22 2009, 6:38am
            When exactly did the wind change? Curious Send a private message to Curious Apr 22 2009, 3:25pm
                Thank you for the generous summary! // Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Apr 23 2009, 7:17pm
            I think there may be some magic FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Apr 22 2009, 4:23pm
    Almost OT Luthien Rising Send a private message to Luthien Rising Apr 22 2009, 9:24pm
    I feel like I had been there myself! Modtheow Send a private message to Modtheow May 7 2009, 12:10am
        Nice to see you around the place! squire Send a private message to squire May 7 2009, 1:07am
            feels like home Modtheow Send a private message to Modtheow May 7 2009, 1:30am
                Guten Tag! Sally, baby, here she comes! squire Send a private message to squire May 7 2009, 5:43am
                    It's all true! // Modtheow Send a private message to Modtheow May 10 2009, 12:56am
        welcome back! weaver Send a private message to weaver May 7 2009, 1:37am
            I will definitely try to go next year // Modtheow Send a private message to Modtheow May 10 2009, 12:58am
        *Peers around WMU's computer lab* N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand May 7 2009, 9:16pm

 
 
 

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