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Advising Elf
Rohan
Apr 13 2007, 8:20pm
Views: 913
Shortcut
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You're getting way of ahead of me! // ;o)
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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Yahoo!Group with good stuff to download: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOTRgoodies/
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Subject
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User
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Time
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*WISE Passage of the Day* No. 3 - The Pity of Bilbo
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Advising Elf
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Apr 10 2007, 5:12pm
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Pity can be seen as condescending, however.
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Curious
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Apr 10 2007, 6:41pm
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Well...
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Darkstone
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Apr 10 2007, 7:01pm
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Responsibility and redemption.
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Advising Elf
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Apr 10 2007, 8:59pm
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I have to disagree
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FarFromHome
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Apr 10 2007, 9:13pm
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Wow! A bit harsh on Gandalf, no?
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Curious
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Apr 10 2007, 9:33pm
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Well, yes
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FarFromHome
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Apr 10 2007, 10:18pm
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How about humble himself?
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Curious
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Apr 10 2007, 11:08pm
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I quite agree with you here...
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mae govannen
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Apr 13 2007, 8:56am
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I don't think that it is huiliation
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Daughter of Nienna
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Apr 11 2007, 6:38am
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Your point is excellent
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Ugly Troll
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Apr 12 2007, 1:17am
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There is no such thing as instant quick fixes
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Daughter of Nienna
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Apr 12 2007, 3:44am
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But didn't Gandalf take the others
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grammaboodawg
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Apr 12 2007, 4:51pm
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Exactly.
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Curious
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Apr 12 2007, 5:26pm
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And Beregond.
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grammaboodawg
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Apr 12 2007, 6:44pm
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When the person's problem is primarily pride,
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mae govannen
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Apr 13 2007, 11:12am
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True
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Darkstone
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Apr 10 2007, 9:22pm
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And sometimes it is beyond any earthly power /
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Daughter of Nienna
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Apr 11 2007, 6:40am
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Quite right; said something similar just now myself,
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mae govannen
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Apr 13 2007, 11:33am
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There is some redemption in Tolkien's world.
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Curious
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Apr 10 2007, 9:20pm
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But...
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Darkstone
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Apr 10 2007, 9:26pm
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Not every redemption
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Curious
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Apr 10 2007, 9:43pm
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But...
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Darkstone
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Apr 10 2007, 9:48pm
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As I said above,
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Curious
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Apr 10 2007, 10:11pm
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What about Gollum?! ?
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mae govannen
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Apr 11 2007, 7:49am
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Gollum was never redeemed.
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Advising Elf
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Apr 11 2007, 1:14pm
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Well, it would seem Tolkien had a more nuanced opinion;
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mae govannen
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Apr 11 2007, 2:18pm
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Well....
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Darkstone
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Apr 11 2007, 2:26pm
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The pity or mercy that's given
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grammaboodawg
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Apr 12 2007, 4:40pm
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Well...
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Darkstone
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Apr 13 2007, 5:58pm
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How is that?... Please elaborate,
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mae govannen
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Apr 14 2007, 7:26am
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Clarification?
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Darkstone
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Apr 16 2007, 1:35pm
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Please re-read carefully what I said
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mae govannen
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Apr 17 2007, 11:31am
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"... willing to offer... "
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grammaboodawg
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Apr 14 2007, 8:58am
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A brief reply
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Advising Elf
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Apr 10 2007, 8:53pm
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The Professor knew his words.
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Curious
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Apr 10 2007, 10:42pm
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You should get some perspective before you dismiss this concept
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a.s.
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Apr 11 2007, 12:26am
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See, that's the problem with the Primary World.
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Curious
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Apr 11 2007, 12:50am
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C'me on, in M-e too, 'not all kings and counsellors are wise father figures'!... And even nowadays,
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mae govannen
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Apr 11 2007, 10:20am
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I'm afraid
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Curious
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Apr 11 2007, 11:43am
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In your quotes, Tolkien speaks of the Hobbits as a species with visible physical differences:
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mae govannen
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Apr 11 2007, 1:21pm
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Tolkien's characters
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FarFromHome
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Apr 11 2007, 4:07pm
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I'll agree with "idealized."
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Curious
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Apr 11 2007, 5:26pm
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"aroused by the misfortune of another"
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a.s.
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Apr 11 2007, 11:18am
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Ithink we're havaing a semantics issue here.
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Advising Elf
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Apr 11 2007, 1:31pm
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no it's not
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a.s.
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Apr 11 2007, 3:29pm
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I take it then, . . .
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Advising Elf
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Apr 11 2007, 3:50pm
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I have already indicated
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a.s.
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Apr 11 2007, 4:18pm
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I never implied that . . .
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Advising Elf
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Apr 11 2007, 4:38pm
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*readies bucket of water*
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Ataahua
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Apr 11 2007, 8:50pm
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Interesting post, a.s.
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N.E. Brigand
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Apr 11 2007, 7:53pm
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Perhaps that's why movie-Frodo's pity
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FarFromHome
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Apr 10 2007, 8:55pm
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And it is a significant departure from the book.
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Curious
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Apr 10 2007, 10:06pm
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That's true
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FarFromHome
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Apr 10 2007, 10:30pm
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Are heroes unreal?
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Curious
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Apr 10 2007, 11:38pm
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That's an interesting question!
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FarFromHome
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Apr 11 2007, 6:41am
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Tolkien 'telling only one part of the story of the "real world"'?!?
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mae govannen
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Apr 12 2007, 9:15am
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You're misunderstanding my point, I think
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FarFromHome
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Apr 12 2007, 9:38am
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Sorry if I did, and thank you for the clarification! :-) /
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mae govannen
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Apr 13 2007, 11:45am
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I think Darkstone is on your side.
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Curious
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Apr 12 2007, 3:12pm
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'Mythic heroes'??? ''Tolkien edited out...'??? What are we talking about?!?
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mae govannen
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Apr 11 2007, 8:40am
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where is Aragorn "flawed to start with"?
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a.s.
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Apr 11 2007, 11:36am
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I agree with mae govannen
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Ainu Laire
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Apr 11 2007, 11:16pm
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Wonderful: you have written for me the post I needed to write !!! :-)
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mae govannen
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Apr 12 2007, 7:28am
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But needing and accepting help isn't a flaw
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FarFromHome
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Apr 12 2007, 8:58am
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Where does book-Frodo show 'cool, condescending pity'?
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mae govannen
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Apr 11 2007, 10:35am
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The film shows the transition so well
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grammaboodawg
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Apr 13 2007, 8:51am
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Movie-Frodo's attitude to Gollum is quite different from the book, I think.
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FarFromHome
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Apr 13 2007, 4:19pm
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Perfect!
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grammaboodawg
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Apr 14 2007, 9:03am
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Middle-earth is as complicated as the Primary World,
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mae govannen
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Apr 12 2007, 12:43pm
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Its not just suffering that makes you great but being forced to
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Adanedhel
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Apr 12 2007, 1:58pm
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That's exactly it, I would say!...
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mae govannen
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Apr 13 2007, 8:47am
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I think the inner and outer greatness,
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Curious
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Apr 12 2007, 3:01pm
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But WHY do they govern the Shire in the end?... Not just because
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mae govannen
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Apr 13 2007, 4:32am
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Well, my other post about WWII & LOTR was actually
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mae govannen
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Apr 13 2007, 5:41am
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Moral relativism.
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Advising Elf
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Apr 10 2007, 9:23pm
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Exactly my problem.
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Darkstone
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Apr 10 2007, 9:29pm
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Hmm...
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Morwen
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Apr 10 2007, 10:03pm
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We don't know if those stories are true.
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Curious
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Apr 10 2007, 11:33pm
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But...
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Darkstone
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Apr 11 2007, 12:33am
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If Saruman had not gone to the Shire
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Curious
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Apr 11 2007, 12:54am
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You think?
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Darkstone
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Apr 11 2007, 1:44am
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Is Saruman right?
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N.E. Brigand
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Apr 11 2007, 3:07am
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Depends on who he's talking about.
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Darkstone
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Apr 11 2007, 1:55pm
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Gandalf as Machiavelli?
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Curious
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Apr 11 2007, 2:26pm
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Gandalf as Sisyphus?
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Darkstone
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Apr 11 2007, 2:55pm
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I've enjoyed reading your debate
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FarFromHome
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Apr 11 2007, 3:50pm
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It makes more sense in the real world
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Adanedhel
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Apr 11 2007, 4:23pm
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That is true
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FarFromHome
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Apr 11 2007, 4:42pm
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It didn't happen in Middle earth either.
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Adanedhel
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Apr 11 2007, 4:52pm
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I'm only talking about LotR
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FarFromHome
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Apr 11 2007, 5:42pm
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Perhaps great spiritual persons you don't know yet of
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mae govannen
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Apr 15 2007, 7:53am
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Wonderfully correct... and after all,
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mae govannen
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Apr 15 2007, 6:47am
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Thanks!
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Darkstone
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Apr 11 2007, 4:46pm
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How about "idealized"?
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Curious
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Apr 11 2007, 5:40pm
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But...
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Darkstone
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Apr 11 2007, 6:02pm
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Please introduce me
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Curious
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Apr 11 2007, 7:09pm
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Sure thing!
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Darkstone
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Apr 11 2007, 7:22pm
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The 'decline of the world' is only
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mae govannen
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Apr 14 2007, 10:04am
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Well!!
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Darkstone
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Apr 16 2007, 1:28pm
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It's not an attack at all,
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mae govannen
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Apr 17 2007, 8:48am
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Speaking of Machiavelli...
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N.E. Brigand
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Apr 11 2007, 7:00pm
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To answer your question, no.
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Curious
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Apr 11 2007, 8:28pm
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So, it seems to all boil down to this:
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mae govannen
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Apr 12 2007, 3:50pm
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Nope.
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Darkstone
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Apr 12 2007, 7:25pm
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Sorry, I do apologise for getting all worked up...!
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mae govannen
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Apr 13 2007, 8:24am
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No problemio
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Darkstone
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Apr 13 2007, 2:58pm
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Thanks for this; but, re. your last question... what say YOU? /
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mae govannen
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Apr 13 2007, 3:17pm
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Well...
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Darkstone
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Apr 13 2007, 4:06pm
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True enough
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Adanedhel
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Apr 13 2007, 7:24pm
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Freedom of will
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FarFromHome
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Apr 13 2007, 8:12pm
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"Lack of alternatives clears the mind."
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Advising Elf
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Apr 13 2007, 8:40pm
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That's exactly my point
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FarFromHome
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Apr 13 2007, 8:50pm
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You're getting way of ahead of me! // ;o)
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Advising Elf
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Apr 13 2007, 8:20pm
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Perfect reply... I would only add that
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mae govannen
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Apr 14 2007, 10:54am
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To be wise is not to be cruel.
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Advising Elf
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Apr 13 2007, 8:09pm
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Dunno.
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Darkstone
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Apr 13 2007, 9:17pm
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Oh my! Saruman relented?!
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mae govannen
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Apr 14 2007, 6:51am
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He is deepely affected, but his pride still rears up.
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Advising Elf
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Apr 16 2007, 12:47pm
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Well, we're saying two interesting variations of the same thing,
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mae govannen
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Apr 17 2007, 12:04pm
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Hear, hear! I agree fully.
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mae govannen
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Apr 14 2007, 7:50am
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{{hugs Darkstone}} Proof! LotR is great literature!!!
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dernwyn
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Apr 13 2007, 10:54am
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Ooops! Forgot to do and say that to Darkstone myself!...
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mae govannen
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Apr 13 2007, 11:24am
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Yep.
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Curious
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Apr 13 2007, 10:07pm
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It sounds like you're a fan of Bored of the Rings.
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Curious
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Apr 11 2007, 11:17am
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Gandalf as a theodicean?
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Darkstone
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Apr 11 2007, 1:37pm
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Yes, they are human
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Curious
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Apr 11 2007, 2:17pm
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Well....
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Darkstone
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Apr 11 2007, 3:08pm
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Frodo as a Candide figure
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FarFromHome
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Apr 12 2007, 8:20pm
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That's OK so long as you've got Gandalf's intuition handy.
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L. Ron Halfelven
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Apr 11 2007, 2:50pm
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Intuition is not only for the Gandalfs...
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mae govannen
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Apr 15 2007, 5:17am
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I forgot to add that
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mae govannen
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Apr 15 2007, 5:31am
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The apparent result is not the only one...
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mae govannen
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Apr 14 2007, 8:07am
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That's the exact thing I was avoiding until the next post.//
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Advising Elf
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Apr 11 2007, 1:37pm
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I'm glad someone is at last saying this... And the kind of hierarchy
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mae govannen
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Apr 11 2007, 12:08pm
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Or to quote Robert Heinlein,
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Curious
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Apr 11 2007, 1:17pm
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ownership
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Ciars
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Apr 11 2007, 5:56pm
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Very interesting!
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Darkstone
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Apr 11 2007, 6:10pm
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I just mean that if I can
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Adanedhel
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Apr 11 2007, 6:10pm
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Definitely so, IMO.
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mae govannen
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Apr 12 2007, 12:54pm
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Bilbo wasn't redeemed by his Pity. . .
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Advising Elf
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Apr 11 2007, 6:26pm
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Maybe
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Ciars
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Apr 11 2007, 6:33pm
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Bilbo had the same reaction as Frodo
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grammaboodawg
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Apr 12 2007, 4:29pm
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Thank you for this continuing series, by the way.
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Curious
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Apr 13 2007, 11:58am
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You're welcome.
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Advising Elf
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Apr 16 2007, 2:06pm
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"Not to strike without need"
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linkin-artelf
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Apr 14 2007, 10:18pm
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'You have not seen him.'
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mae govannen
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Apr 15 2007, 7:13am
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