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FarFromHome
Valinor
Mar 3 2009, 5:42pm
Views: 2044
Shortcut
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in your description of superheroes that doesn't apply equally to just plain regular heroes. Indeed, I think superheroes are interesting simply because they are projections of the best of humanity, not a class apart. I like your descriptions of Aragorn's burden, but I don't see anything there that doesn't reflect real, human experience, portrayed in a high-heroic style. If Aragorn strives and suffers to achieve his superhuman feats, why do you call him superhuman rather than human? Is it because he's presented with few flaws? Do you read that as meaning he has no flaws, rather than that he overcomes them? If he strives and suffers to overcome fear, or doubt, or the desire to remain with his beloved, then I'd say he's human, not superhuman. If you choose to see the narrator as untrustworthy, then you can attribute all kinds of things to Aragorn that the narrator does not tell us, and I cannot prove that you are wrong. To the extent I see the narration as untrustworthy, all it means is that I'm prepared to look below the surface, at the details in the text that add a layer of ambiguity, in this case to the grandly heroic surface impression of Aragorn. The moments when he gets testy, or worries that he's made mistakes, or sits with his head bent to his knees before he leaves Rivendell. Those are the temptations of Aragorn, and without them he'd be a lesser character. By suggesting that the narrator has a particular point of view and is not "omniscient", I'm not claiming that that makes it all right to just make stuff up. Everything has to come through the narrator, but you can imagine that perhaps the narrator doesn't always understand everything he sees. All I want to do is look at the many small, hidden details that can enrich the characters, and other aspects of the story, if you look for them. I think Tolkien writes a grand, fairytale story of magic and superheroism on one level, but often adds a wealth of small details on another level that allows us to glimpse the humanity and reality that lies behind those fairytale conventions.
Farewell, friends! I hear the call. The ship’s beside the stony wall. Foam is white and waves are grey; beyond the sunset leads my way. Bilbo's Last Song
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Subject
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User
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Time
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The Tale of Years (Appendix B): Part I – The 2nd Age, 1 -1600
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Morthoron
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Feb 23 2009, 6:42am
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My thoughts
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 23 2009, 5:04pm
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Drawing the line
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squire
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Feb 23 2009, 10:34pm
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Suddenly *I'm* the one looking for errors?
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 24 2009, 3:48pm
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I have no desire to be creamed like the Spanish, or anyone else.
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squire
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Feb 25 2009, 12:24am
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Mordor
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 25 2009, 12:42am
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Excellent points!
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 25 2009, 12:47am
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real world boxy mountains
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hanne
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Feb 24 2009, 4:17pm
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I'm always a bit surprised
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Aunt Dora Baggins
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Feb 25 2009, 5:36pm
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The best I could come up with
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
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Mar 15 2009, 9:15pm
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"...any historical value it may possess must always be of secondary importance."
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Darkstone
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Feb 23 2009, 6:24pm
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ANOTHR Wiped Out Post!
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 23 2009, 7:51pm
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Thoughts.
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Curious
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Feb 23 2009, 10:42pm
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Hey, darken down! Stop having fun! Take this more seriously!
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squire
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Feb 23 2009, 11:01pm
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Perhaps I am sensitive about the Reading Room's
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Curious
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Feb 24 2009, 1:49am
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In addition...
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Morthoron
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Feb 24 2009, 1:32am
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Was Annatar pretending to be an elf?
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Curious
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Feb 24 2009, 6:32am
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What 'Miscellaneous Spirits'?
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 24 2009, 2:05pm
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It's just a theory.
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Curious
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Feb 24 2009, 3:24pm
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Never Heard That
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 24 2009, 8:01pm
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Check
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Curious
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Feb 25 2009, 7:53am
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Door Number Three
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 25 2009, 2:07pm
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This is one of the most inexplicable editing decisions in the published Silmarillion
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 24 2009, 8:05pm
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Wouldn't It Be Great
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 24 2009, 8:37pm
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Very interesting!//
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Curious
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Feb 24 2009, 9:51pm
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Not so implausible to me
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 24 2009, 4:02pm
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Hmmmm....
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Morthoron
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Feb 25 2009, 2:06am
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Difficult
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 25 2009, 4:04am
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Tolkien was powerfully conflicted
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squire
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Feb 25 2009, 4:32am
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Ah, but...
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 25 2009, 3:13pm
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Nonetheless....
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Morthoron
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Feb 25 2009, 3:53pm
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Still seems plausible to me...
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 25 2009, 4:20pm
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Why Not?
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 25 2009, 5:02pm
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Some Thoughts About Some of Your Thoughts
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 24 2009, 4:34am
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The broader legendarium is a first class mess. Not the work of a niggling and perfectionist writer.
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squire
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Feb 24 2009, 5:34am
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I am not "looking at the broader
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Curious
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Feb 24 2009, 6:25am
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I don't get it.
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FarFromHome
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Feb 24 2009, 8:51am
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Tolkien in his later years was not the literary equivalent of a dog chasing his tail
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 24 2009, 2:27pm
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Morgoth's Ring is my favorite book in the HoME series,
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Curious
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Feb 25 2009, 2:38pm
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Actually, he never comtemplated eliminating the Two Trees
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 25 2009, 3:32pm
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Perhaps the HoME stories you love
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Curious
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Feb 25 2009, 6:18pm
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Quite true
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 25 2009, 6:30pm
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??????
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 26 2009, 12:54am
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We discussed this recently.
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 2:04am
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Oh Boy....
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 26 2009, 4:15am
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Enough....
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 26 2009, 4:28am
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Isn't calling an early 20th century English author "classist"...
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squire
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Feb 26 2009, 1:13am
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Well, the emphasis of
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 1:56am
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Where would I find each of these stories?
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Curious
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Feb 25 2009, 6:29pm
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"The Wanderings of Húrin" is in HoMe XI.
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 25 2009, 7:56pm
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Thanks! I'm not
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Curious
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Feb 25 2009, 8:16pm
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Among other unique features, that story has a *hero lawyer* and a trial scene! FYI //
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squire
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Feb 25 2009, 10:34pm
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Sorry for the delay
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 25 2009, 11:06pm
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I should stop talking about serious / not serious. And I didn't say "mere."
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Curious
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Feb 24 2009, 3:02pm
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"Mere" was probably my addition, I agree.
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FarFromHome
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Feb 24 2009, 3:36pm
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Letter #160, as
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Curious
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Feb 24 2009, 6:49pm
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Oh, *that* game...
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FarFromHome
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Feb 26 2009, 10:20am
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Not that real history works that way
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squire
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Feb 26 2009, 11:24am
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Agreed.
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FarFromHome
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Feb 26 2009, 12:00pm
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And that's why I have bigger issues with you
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 12:23pm
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Not at all.
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FarFromHome
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Feb 26 2009, 1:05pm
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I have a bias
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 5:10pm
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Well I'm glad...
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FarFromHome
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Feb 26 2009, 6:18pm
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What, exactly, have you noticed?
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 7:40pm
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That's difficult to answer.
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FarFromHome
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Feb 26 2009, 10:33pm
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In the films, do we really witness those events?
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 26 2009, 10:38pm
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We witness them
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FarFromHome
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Mar 1 2009, 6:26pm
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Yes, the book is hobbitcentric.
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 11:26pm
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Sounds good to me.
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FarFromHome
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Mar 1 2009, 7:05pm
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Gandalf, Gimli and Legolas, the hosts of Mordor.
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 1 2009, 7:31pm
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Myth of idealized heroes
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 2 2009, 12:30am
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They may have foibles, but have any of them
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Curious
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Mar 2 2009, 3:29pm
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Sin is relative
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 2 2009, 3:52pm
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Hmm.
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Curious
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Mar 2 2009, 4:54pm
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Are we on the same page?
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 2 2009, 5:33pm
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How do we know
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 2 2009, 5:42pm
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Different intention
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 2 2009, 6:18pm
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Who wants "better than average"?
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Curious
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Mar 2 2009, 6:39pm
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Matter of degree and opportunity
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 3 2009, 4:23am
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He also has divine and elven blood.
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 11:23am
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I think it's a bit more complicated.
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FarFromHome
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Mar 3 2009, 12:34pm
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Semi-divine,
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 4:18pm
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Well, at least the female ancestors knew.
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Darkstone
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Mar 3 2009, 5:36pm
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Dirhael is male.//
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 5:45pm
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I know.
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Darkstone
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Mar 3 2009, 6:09pm
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I see your point. Although
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 6:56pm
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I can't see anything
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FarFromHome
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Mar 3 2009, 5:42pm
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Is Gandalf human, then, by your definition?
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 5:50pm
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Yes. //
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FarFromHome
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Mar 3 2009, 6:15pm
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That explains alot.
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 7:00pm
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Philosopher-King
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 4 2009, 2:04am
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Faith in Christ, and the ennoblement of the noble
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squire
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Mar 2 2009, 7:26pm
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Very interesting point!
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Curious
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Mar 2 2009, 11:03pm
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Normalcy
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 3 2009, 4:34am
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Heroes may inspire us, but
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 11:32am
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Spiderman comes across as human too.
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 5:43pm
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Nice point about the Ring
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FarFromHome
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Mar 3 2009, 5:49pm
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Except
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 5:54pm
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Agreed.
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FarFromHome
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Mar 3 2009, 6:23pm
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I don't think so.
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 6:48pm
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Aragorn as Elessar does not receive the Power of the Ring
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squire
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Mar 3 2009, 5:51pm
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That line can be fuzzy.
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 6:02pm
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Well, he is a King, for gods' sake.
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squire
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Mar 3 2009, 7:12pm
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No, not sinister at all.
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 7:31pm
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Police
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 4 2009, 2:19am
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Where is the inquest
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Curious
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Mar 4 2009, 2:23am
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Something subtler
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 4 2009, 2:28am
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I find your point more persuasive than squire's.
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Curious
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Mar 4 2009, 2:13pm
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Thank you!
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 4 2009, 3:52pm
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Is the Guard a police force?
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Curious
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Mar 4 2009, 6:05pm
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I concede both points...
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 5 2009, 4:32am
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So what?
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squire
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Mar 4 2009, 3:10am
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Sure I can imagine it.
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Curious
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Mar 4 2009, 11:14am
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That explains a lot.
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squire
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Mar 4 2009, 11:40am
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Good points--important distinction! //
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 4 2009, 2:10am
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I won't repeat
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Curious
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Mar 2 2009, 6:04pm
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Agreed.
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 2 2009, 6:21pm
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Yep, there's a bright line between them.//
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Curious
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Mar 2 2009, 6:32pm
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My edits vanished
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 2 2009, 4:02pm
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Oops--they didn't disappear!
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 2 2009, 4:04pm
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Tolkien's characters *are* believable within
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Curious
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Mar 2 2009, 5:16pm
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Think of hobbits as a lens, not as authors
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squire
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Mar 1 2009, 7:40pm
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That works for me.
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FarFromHome
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Mar 2 2009, 5:28pm
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FYI: "mythology for England" isn't Tolkien's phrase.
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 2 2009, 5:46pm
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I take back the "gag" remark
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squire
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Mar 2 2009, 6:54pm
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Fair enough.
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FarFromHome
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Mar 2 2009, 7:13pm
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I tend to agree with the 'hobbit-lens' rather than 'hobbit-author' distinction you make
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sador
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Mar 2 2009, 7:28pm
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I discussed most of these points
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Curious
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Mar 2 2009, 12:16am
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What's the big deal?
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 26 2009, 2:01pm
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I don't have any problem with your approach.
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 5:24pm
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Dog Chasing the Tail
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 26 2009, 10:45pm
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Can we not take this subject any further?
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 26 2009, 11:05pm
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Agreed.
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 11:09pm
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I agree totaslly
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 26 2009, 11:14pm
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No, I hate Tolkien.
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 11:07pm
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Enchantment and Disillusionment
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 26 2009, 5:16pm
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I like finding a middle ground.
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 5:37pm
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Thank you for a gentlemanly response...
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 26 2009, 5:56pm
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It's possible.
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 6:21pm
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It's not unpublished.
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FarFromHome
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Feb 26 2009, 6:33pm
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Written before LOTR was published.
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 26 2009, 6:45pm
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You are quite correct
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 26 2009, 9:13pm
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I don't think Tolkien lived in his own fantasy land all the time.
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squire
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Feb 26 2009, 10:08pm
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You mistake my meaning
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 26 2009, 10:27pm
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I get you now
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squire
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Feb 26 2009, 11:35pm
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I agree with both you and Curious about the narrator of LOTR
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 26 2009, 11:42pm
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I'll have to disagree...
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Morthoron
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Feb 27 2009, 2:00am
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Who saw and reported on the "most tragic moment" in LOTR?
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 27 2009, 2:11am
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Very true...
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Morthoron
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Feb 27 2009, 2:39am
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Hmm.
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 27 2009, 2:55am
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Not quite that.
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FarFromHome
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Mar 1 2009, 4:33pm
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Do you really think
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Mar 1 2009, 4:49pm
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Well, it's certainly arguable
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squire
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Mar 1 2009, 5:05pm
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Sure.
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 1 2009, 5:09pm
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Focusing on the hobbits protagonists is not the same
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Curious
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Feb 27 2009, 8:13am
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In the Prologue, Merry is considered to be a bit of an author
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sador
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Feb 27 2009, 8:29am
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And I would argue
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 10:57pm
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What if your premise is wrong?
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 26 2009, 6:18pm
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Yes
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 27 2009, 4:27am
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Harder and more elusive.
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 27 2009, 5:02am
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Now it was my turn!
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sador
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Feb 24 2009, 1:43pm
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