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FarFromHome
Valinor
Feb 26 2009, 10:33pm
Views: 2047
Shortcut
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I certainly haven't found some big and irrefutable piece of evidence, just an accumulation of small instances. I tend to mention them whenever a question comes up where this approach seems to provide a possible answer. I've made no attempt to catalogue them, and probably all of them could be explained in some other way as well. Obvious things are the way we hear the story from Frodo's viewpoint until he takes Gollum's oath, after which the point of view changes to Sam, except for the occasional moment when something strongly affects Frodo. There are certainly many references throughout the text of the hobbits writing their story, some of them off-hand (like Merry and Pippin discussing the chapters they are going to get in Bilbo's book), and some of them quite explicit, like Sam, Merry and Pippin in Cormallen discussing how it will take weeks for them to get the story straight and then for Frodo to "write it all down". And there's that very self-referential discussion about stories on the Stairs of Cirith Ungol. I think, too, that it's pretty much always possible in LotR to figure out who told which part of the story. Gandalf's solo adventures are almost always recounted by him in his own words after the event - they aren't described in "real time" directly to the readers. The tale of the Three Hunters is explicitly told to Merry and Pippin afterwards, the Ride of the Rohirrim sounds as if it's taken from their own songs, and so on. We get almost no private thoughts from anyone but the hobbits, and no private conversations either, which may be one of the reasons the story of Aragorn and Arwen couldn't be made to fit. It's interesting to compare the book with the movies, where we do get to witness plenty of scenes where the hobbits aren't present, so that we see private discussions between Gandalf and Elrond, Elrond and Aragorn, Aragorn and Arwen, among others. All these scenes advance the story in interesting ways, so it's striking that no such scenes are shown in the book. If a hobbit couldn't know about it, it's not there. All this is off the top of my head (it's late, and I have to work in the morning), and it's hard to remember all the little things that have made me start to look at the text from this perspective. Let me stress again, though, that I'm not trying to force this interpretation on you or anyone else. I'm just putting it forward as a possible different perspective from which to look at LotR. Not to replace other viewpoints, just as one more thing to consider in this very rich and complex story.
Farewell, friends! I hear the call. The ship’s beside the stony wall. Foam is white and waves are grey; beyond the sunset leads my way. Bilbo's Last Song
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Subject
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User
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Time
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The Tale of Years (Appendix B): Part I – The 2nd Age, 1 -1600
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Morthoron
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Feb 23 2009, 6:42am
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My thoughts
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 23 2009, 5:04pm
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Drawing the line
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squire
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Feb 23 2009, 10:34pm
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Suddenly *I'm* the one looking for errors?
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 24 2009, 3:48pm
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I have no desire to be creamed like the Spanish, or anyone else.
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squire
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Feb 25 2009, 12:24am
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Mordor
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 25 2009, 12:42am
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Excellent points!
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 25 2009, 12:47am
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real world boxy mountains
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hanne
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Feb 24 2009, 4:17pm
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I'm always a bit surprised
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Aunt Dora Baggins
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Feb 25 2009, 5:36pm
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The best I could come up with
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
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Mar 15 2009, 9:15pm
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"...any historical value it may possess must always be of secondary importance."
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Darkstone
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Feb 23 2009, 6:24pm
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ANOTHR Wiped Out Post!
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 23 2009, 7:51pm
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Thoughts.
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Curious
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Feb 23 2009, 10:42pm
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Hey, darken down! Stop having fun! Take this more seriously!
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squire
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Feb 23 2009, 11:01pm
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Perhaps I am sensitive about the Reading Room's
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Curious
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Feb 24 2009, 1:49am
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In addition...
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Morthoron
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Feb 24 2009, 1:32am
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Was Annatar pretending to be an elf?
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Curious
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Feb 24 2009, 6:32am
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What 'Miscellaneous Spirits'?
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 24 2009, 2:05pm
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It's just a theory.
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Curious
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Feb 24 2009, 3:24pm
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Never Heard That
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 24 2009, 8:01pm
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Check
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Curious
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Feb 25 2009, 7:53am
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Door Number Three
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 25 2009, 2:07pm
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This is one of the most inexplicable editing decisions in the published Silmarillion
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 24 2009, 8:05pm
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Wouldn't It Be Great
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 24 2009, 8:37pm
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Very interesting!//
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Curious
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Feb 24 2009, 9:51pm
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Not so implausible to me
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 24 2009, 4:02pm
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Hmmmm....
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Morthoron
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Feb 25 2009, 2:06am
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Difficult
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 25 2009, 4:04am
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Tolkien was powerfully conflicted
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squire
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Feb 25 2009, 4:32am
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Ah, but...
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 25 2009, 3:13pm
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Nonetheless....
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Morthoron
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Feb 25 2009, 3:53pm
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Still seems plausible to me...
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 25 2009, 4:20pm
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Why Not?
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 25 2009, 5:02pm
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Some Thoughts About Some of Your Thoughts
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 24 2009, 4:34am
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The broader legendarium is a first class mess. Not the work of a niggling and perfectionist writer.
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squire
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Feb 24 2009, 5:34am
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I am not "looking at the broader
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Curious
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Feb 24 2009, 6:25am
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I don't get it.
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FarFromHome
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Feb 24 2009, 8:51am
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Tolkien in his later years was not the literary equivalent of a dog chasing his tail
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 24 2009, 2:27pm
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Morgoth's Ring is my favorite book in the HoME series,
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Curious
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Feb 25 2009, 2:38pm
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Actually, he never comtemplated eliminating the Two Trees
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 25 2009, 3:32pm
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Perhaps the HoME stories you love
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Curious
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Feb 25 2009, 6:18pm
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Quite true
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 25 2009, 6:30pm
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??????
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 26 2009, 12:54am
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We discussed this recently.
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 2:04am
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Oh Boy....
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 26 2009, 4:15am
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Enough....
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 26 2009, 4:28am
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Isn't calling an early 20th century English author "classist"...
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squire
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Feb 26 2009, 1:13am
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Well, the emphasis of
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 1:56am
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Where would I find each of these stories?
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Curious
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Feb 25 2009, 6:29pm
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"The Wanderings of Húrin" is in HoMe XI.
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 25 2009, 7:56pm
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Thanks! I'm not
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Curious
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Feb 25 2009, 8:16pm
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Among other unique features, that story has a *hero lawyer* and a trial scene! FYI //
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squire
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Feb 25 2009, 10:34pm
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Sorry for the delay
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 25 2009, 11:06pm
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I should stop talking about serious / not serious. And I didn't say "mere."
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Curious
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Feb 24 2009, 3:02pm
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"Mere" was probably my addition, I agree.
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FarFromHome
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Feb 24 2009, 3:36pm
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Letter #160, as
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Curious
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Feb 24 2009, 6:49pm
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Oh, *that* game...
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FarFromHome
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Feb 26 2009, 10:20am
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Not that real history works that way
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squire
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Feb 26 2009, 11:24am
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Agreed.
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FarFromHome
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Feb 26 2009, 12:00pm
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And that's why I have bigger issues with you
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 12:23pm
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Not at all.
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FarFromHome
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Feb 26 2009, 1:05pm
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I have a bias
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 5:10pm
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Well I'm glad...
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FarFromHome
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Feb 26 2009, 6:18pm
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What, exactly, have you noticed?
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 7:40pm
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That's difficult to answer.
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FarFromHome
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Feb 26 2009, 10:33pm
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In the films, do we really witness those events?
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 26 2009, 10:38pm
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We witness them
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FarFromHome
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Mar 1 2009, 6:26pm
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Yes, the book is hobbitcentric.
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 11:26pm
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Sounds good to me.
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FarFromHome
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Mar 1 2009, 7:05pm
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Gandalf, Gimli and Legolas, the hosts of Mordor.
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 1 2009, 7:31pm
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Myth of idealized heroes
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 2 2009, 12:30am
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They may have foibles, but have any of them
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Curious
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Mar 2 2009, 3:29pm
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Sin is relative
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 2 2009, 3:52pm
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Hmm.
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Curious
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Mar 2 2009, 4:54pm
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Are we on the same page?
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 2 2009, 5:33pm
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How do we know
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 2 2009, 5:42pm
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Different intention
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 2 2009, 6:18pm
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Who wants "better than average"?
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Curious
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Mar 2 2009, 6:39pm
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Matter of degree and opportunity
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 3 2009, 4:23am
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He also has divine and elven blood.
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 11:23am
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I think it's a bit more complicated.
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FarFromHome
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Mar 3 2009, 12:34pm
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Semi-divine,
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 4:18pm
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Well, at least the female ancestors knew.
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Darkstone
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Mar 3 2009, 5:36pm
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Dirhael is male.//
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 5:45pm
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I know.
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Darkstone
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Mar 3 2009, 6:09pm
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I see your point. Although
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 6:56pm
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I can't see anything
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FarFromHome
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Mar 3 2009, 5:42pm
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Is Gandalf human, then, by your definition?
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 5:50pm
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Yes. //
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FarFromHome
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Mar 3 2009, 6:15pm
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That explains alot.
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 7:00pm
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Philosopher-King
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 4 2009, 2:04am
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Faith in Christ, and the ennoblement of the noble
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squire
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Mar 2 2009, 7:26pm
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Very interesting point!
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Curious
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Mar 2 2009, 11:03pm
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Normalcy
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 3 2009, 4:34am
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Heroes may inspire us, but
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 11:32am
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Spiderman comes across as human too.
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 5:43pm
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Nice point about the Ring
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FarFromHome
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Mar 3 2009, 5:49pm
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Except
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 5:54pm
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Agreed.
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FarFromHome
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Mar 3 2009, 6:23pm
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I don't think so.
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 6:48pm
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Aragorn as Elessar does not receive the Power of the Ring
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squire
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Mar 3 2009, 5:51pm
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That line can be fuzzy.
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 6:02pm
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Well, he is a King, for gods' sake.
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squire
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Mar 3 2009, 7:12pm
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No, not sinister at all.
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 7:31pm
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Police
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 4 2009, 2:19am
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Where is the inquest
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Curious
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Mar 4 2009, 2:23am
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Something subtler
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 4 2009, 2:28am
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I find your point more persuasive than squire's.
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Curious
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Mar 4 2009, 2:13pm
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Thank you!
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 4 2009, 3:52pm
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Is the Guard a police force?
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Curious
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Mar 4 2009, 6:05pm
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I concede both points...
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 5 2009, 4:32am
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So what?
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squire
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Mar 4 2009, 3:10am
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Sure I can imagine it.
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Curious
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Mar 4 2009, 11:14am
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That explains a lot.
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squire
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Mar 4 2009, 11:40am
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Good points--important distinction! //
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 4 2009, 2:10am
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I won't repeat
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Curious
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Mar 2 2009, 6:04pm
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Agreed.
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 2 2009, 6:21pm
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Yep, there's a bright line between them.//
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Curious
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Mar 2 2009, 6:32pm
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My edits vanished
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 2 2009, 4:02pm
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Oops--they didn't disappear!
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 2 2009, 4:04pm
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Tolkien's characters *are* believable within
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Curious
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Mar 2 2009, 5:16pm
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Think of hobbits as a lens, not as authors
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squire
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Mar 1 2009, 7:40pm
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That works for me.
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FarFromHome
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Mar 2 2009, 5:28pm
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FYI: "mythology for England" isn't Tolkien's phrase.
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 2 2009, 5:46pm
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I take back the "gag" remark
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squire
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Mar 2 2009, 6:54pm
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Fair enough.
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FarFromHome
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Mar 2 2009, 7:13pm
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I tend to agree with the 'hobbit-lens' rather than 'hobbit-author' distinction you make
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sador
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Mar 2 2009, 7:28pm
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I discussed most of these points
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Curious
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Mar 2 2009, 12:16am
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What's the big deal?
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 26 2009, 2:01pm
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I don't have any problem with your approach.
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 5:24pm
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Dog Chasing the Tail
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 26 2009, 10:45pm
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Can we not take this subject any further?
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 26 2009, 11:05pm
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Agreed.
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 11:09pm
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I agree totaslly
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 26 2009, 11:14pm
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No, I hate Tolkien.
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 11:07pm
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Enchantment and Disillusionment
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 26 2009, 5:16pm
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I like finding a middle ground.
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 5:37pm
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Thank you for a gentlemanly response...
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 26 2009, 5:56pm
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It's possible.
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 6:21pm
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It's not unpublished.
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FarFromHome
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Feb 26 2009, 6:33pm
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Written before LOTR was published.
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 26 2009, 6:45pm
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You are quite correct
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 26 2009, 9:13pm
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I don't think Tolkien lived in his own fantasy land all the time.
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squire
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Feb 26 2009, 10:08pm
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You mistake my meaning
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 26 2009, 10:27pm
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I get you now
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squire
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Feb 26 2009, 11:35pm
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I agree with both you and Curious about the narrator of LOTR
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 26 2009, 11:42pm
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I'll have to disagree...
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Morthoron
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Feb 27 2009, 2:00am
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Who saw and reported on the "most tragic moment" in LOTR?
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 27 2009, 2:11am
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Very true...
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Morthoron
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Feb 27 2009, 2:39am
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Hmm.
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 27 2009, 2:55am
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Not quite that.
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FarFromHome
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Mar 1 2009, 4:33pm
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Do you really think
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Mar 1 2009, 4:49pm
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Well, it's certainly arguable
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squire
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Mar 1 2009, 5:05pm
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Sure.
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 1 2009, 5:09pm
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Focusing on the hobbits protagonists is not the same
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Curious
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Feb 27 2009, 8:13am
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In the Prologue, Merry is considered to be a bit of an author
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sador
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Feb 27 2009, 8:29am
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And I would argue
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 10:57pm
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What if your premise is wrong?
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 26 2009, 6:18pm
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Yes
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 27 2009, 4:27am
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Harder and more elusive.
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 27 2009, 5:02am
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Now it was my turn!
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sador
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Feb 24 2009, 1:43pm
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