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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Feb 24 2009, 4:34am
Views: 6706
Shortcut
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Some Thoughts About Some of Your Thoughts
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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From time to time Tolkien pretends that other authors are involved, and nowhere more so than in the Appendices, but even here I contend that on close examination the pretense pretty quickly breaks down. Tolkien is too obsessive to introduce actual contradictions and inaccuracies and biases into his account of the kind we might find in a history that really was written by different people throughout history with imperfect knowledge and political agendas. I disagree with you, particularly if you look at the broader legendarium. The device of "other authors" is very common throughout the legendarium, and there are many instances of actual contradictions and inaccuracies and even biases that are introduced. Here's a few that I can think of, just off the top of my head. There is the statement in "Of the Rings of Power .." that Frodo cast the Ring into the Fire, which of course contradicts the story as told in LOTR. There is the Second Prophecy of Mandos, which Tolkien says in the commentary to the Athrabeth was a Mannish myth, not Elvish history, and which should have ended the Quenta, and which directly contradicted the statement in what Tolkien wrote as the final coda of the Valaquenta (but that Christopher instead used as the final coda of the Quenta) that "if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwë and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos." There are two completely different tales (written at roughly the same time) of the Nirnaeth, one of which has Maedhros delayed by the treachery of Uldor the Easterling, and another in which that element is completely lacking (and Maedhros is intercepted by a separate army of Morgoth's). And there are numerous different variations in the story of Turin (perhaps the most significant being that in one alternative, unlike the version included in The Silmarillion and CoH, Turin firmly DID love Finduilas, but tried unsuccessfully to avoid drawing her into his Doom). There are many other examples, but I'm sure you get the point. Celebrimbor must have been quite a piece of work -- lesser than but similar to Feanor, who was similarly deceived by Melkor. Despite the superficial similarities of being create craftsman and being deceived by Melkor and Sauron, Celebrimbor was really quite different that Feanor his grandfather. He was a much milder, and ultimately wiser, person. For instance, there is the statement in The Silmarillion that Celebrimbor repudiated the deeds of his father Curufin and stayed in Nargothrond when Curufin and Celegorm are driven out from there after Finrod's death. This was actually an editorial edition that Christopher says was based on a late note. I believe this late note was actually a note that Tolkien wrote on one of his copies of the second edition of ROTK next to the statement in Appendix B about Celebrimbor being descended from Feanor that Celebrimbor was the son of Curufin and was aghast at his father's behavior and refused to go with him when he left Nargothrond (which Christopher mentions in a footnote to the the essay "Of Dwarves and Men" in PoMe). Moreover, Celebrimbor's actions with the three Elven Rings contrasts starkly with Feanor's greedy, selfish conduct with the Silmarils. Instead of hoarding the Three Rings, Celebrimbor delivered them to the wisest of the Elves, and he perceives the designs of Sauron, enabling the Three to be hidden from him. There is also one of the versions of the story of the Elessar, in which Celebrimbor made a replica of the original stone to ease Galadriel's cares.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
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Subject
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User
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Time
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The Tale of Years (Appendix B): Part I – The 2nd Age, 1 -1600
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Morthoron
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Feb 23 2009, 6:42am
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My thoughts
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 23 2009, 5:04pm
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Drawing the line
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squire
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Feb 23 2009, 10:34pm
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Suddenly *I'm* the one looking for errors?
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 24 2009, 3:48pm
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I have no desire to be creamed like the Spanish, or anyone else.
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squire
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Feb 25 2009, 12:24am
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Mordor
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 25 2009, 12:42am
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Excellent points!
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 25 2009, 12:47am
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real world boxy mountains
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hanne
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Feb 24 2009, 4:17pm
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I'm always a bit surprised
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Aunt Dora Baggins
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Feb 25 2009, 5:36pm
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The best I could come up with
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
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Mar 15 2009, 9:15pm
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"...any historical value it may possess must always be of secondary importance."
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Darkstone
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Feb 23 2009, 6:24pm
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ANOTHR Wiped Out Post!
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 23 2009, 7:51pm
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Thoughts.
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Curious
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Feb 23 2009, 10:42pm
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Hey, darken down! Stop having fun! Take this more seriously!
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squire
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Feb 23 2009, 11:01pm
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Perhaps I am sensitive about the Reading Room's
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Curious
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Feb 24 2009, 1:49am
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In addition...
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Morthoron
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Feb 24 2009, 1:32am
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Was Annatar pretending to be an elf?
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Curious
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Feb 24 2009, 6:32am
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What 'Miscellaneous Spirits'?
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 24 2009, 2:05pm
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It's just a theory.
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Curious
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Feb 24 2009, 3:24pm
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Never Heard That
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 24 2009, 8:01pm
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Check
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Curious
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Feb 25 2009, 7:53am
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Door Number Three
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 25 2009, 2:07pm
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This is one of the most inexplicable editing decisions in the published Silmarillion
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 24 2009, 8:05pm
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Wouldn't It Be Great
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 24 2009, 8:37pm
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Very interesting!//
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Curious
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Feb 24 2009, 9:51pm
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Not so implausible to me
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 24 2009, 4:02pm
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Hmmmm....
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Morthoron
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Feb 25 2009, 2:06am
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Difficult
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 25 2009, 4:04am
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Tolkien was powerfully conflicted
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squire
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Feb 25 2009, 4:32am
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Ah, but...
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 25 2009, 3:13pm
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Nonetheless....
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Morthoron
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Feb 25 2009, 3:53pm
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Still seems plausible to me...
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 25 2009, 4:20pm
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Why Not?
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 25 2009, 5:02pm
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Some Thoughts About Some of Your Thoughts
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 24 2009, 4:34am
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The broader legendarium is a first class mess. Not the work of a niggling and perfectionist writer.
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squire
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Feb 24 2009, 5:34am
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I am not "looking at the broader
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Curious
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Feb 24 2009, 6:25am
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I don't get it.
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FarFromHome
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Feb 24 2009, 8:51am
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Tolkien in his later years was not the literary equivalent of a dog chasing his tail
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 24 2009, 2:27pm
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Morgoth's Ring is my favorite book in the HoME series,
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Curious
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Feb 25 2009, 2:38pm
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Actually, he never comtemplated eliminating the Two Trees
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 25 2009, 3:32pm
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Perhaps the HoME stories you love
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Curious
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Feb 25 2009, 6:18pm
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Quite true
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 25 2009, 6:30pm
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??????
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 26 2009, 12:54am
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We discussed this recently.
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 2:04am
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Oh Boy....
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 26 2009, 4:15am
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Enough....
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 26 2009, 4:28am
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Isn't calling an early 20th century English author "classist"...
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squire
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Feb 26 2009, 1:13am
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Well, the emphasis of
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 1:56am
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Where would I find each of these stories?
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Curious
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Feb 25 2009, 6:29pm
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"The Wanderings of Húrin" is in HoMe XI.
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 25 2009, 7:56pm
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Thanks! I'm not
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Curious
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Feb 25 2009, 8:16pm
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Among other unique features, that story has a *hero lawyer* and a trial scene! FYI //
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squire
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Feb 25 2009, 10:34pm
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Sorry for the delay
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 25 2009, 11:06pm
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I should stop talking about serious / not serious. And I didn't say "mere."
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Curious
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Feb 24 2009, 3:02pm
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"Mere" was probably my addition, I agree.
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FarFromHome
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Feb 24 2009, 3:36pm
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Letter #160, as
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Curious
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Feb 24 2009, 6:49pm
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Oh, *that* game...
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FarFromHome
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Feb 26 2009, 10:20am
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Not that real history works that way
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squire
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Feb 26 2009, 11:24am
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Agreed.
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FarFromHome
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Feb 26 2009, 12:00pm
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And that's why I have bigger issues with you
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 12:23pm
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Not at all.
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FarFromHome
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Feb 26 2009, 1:05pm
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I have a bias
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 5:10pm
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Well I'm glad...
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FarFromHome
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Feb 26 2009, 6:18pm
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What, exactly, have you noticed?
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 7:40pm
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That's difficult to answer.
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FarFromHome
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Feb 26 2009, 10:33pm
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In the films, do we really witness those events?
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 26 2009, 10:38pm
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We witness them
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FarFromHome
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Mar 1 2009, 6:26pm
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Yes, the book is hobbitcentric.
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 11:26pm
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Sounds good to me.
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FarFromHome
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Mar 1 2009, 7:05pm
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Gandalf, Gimli and Legolas, the hosts of Mordor.
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 1 2009, 7:31pm
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Myth of idealized heroes
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 2 2009, 12:30am
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They may have foibles, but have any of them
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Curious
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Mar 2 2009, 3:29pm
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Sin is relative
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 2 2009, 3:52pm
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Hmm.
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Curious
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Mar 2 2009, 4:54pm
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Are we on the same page?
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 2 2009, 5:33pm
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How do we know
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 2 2009, 5:42pm
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Different intention
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 2 2009, 6:18pm
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Who wants "better than average"?
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Curious
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Mar 2 2009, 6:39pm
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Matter of degree and opportunity
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 3 2009, 4:23am
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He also has divine and elven blood.
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 11:23am
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I think it's a bit more complicated.
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FarFromHome
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Mar 3 2009, 12:34pm
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Semi-divine,
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 4:18pm
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Well, at least the female ancestors knew.
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Darkstone
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Mar 3 2009, 5:36pm
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Dirhael is male.//
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 5:45pm
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I know.
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Darkstone
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Mar 3 2009, 6:09pm
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I see your point. Although
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 6:56pm
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I can't see anything
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FarFromHome
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Mar 3 2009, 5:42pm
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Is Gandalf human, then, by your definition?
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 5:50pm
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Yes. //
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FarFromHome
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Mar 3 2009, 6:15pm
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That explains alot.
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 7:00pm
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Philosopher-King
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 4 2009, 2:04am
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Faith in Christ, and the ennoblement of the noble
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squire
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Mar 2 2009, 7:26pm
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Very interesting point!
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Curious
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Mar 2 2009, 11:03pm
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Normalcy
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 3 2009, 4:34am
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Heroes may inspire us, but
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 11:32am
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Spiderman comes across as human too.
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 5:43pm
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Nice point about the Ring
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FarFromHome
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Mar 3 2009, 5:49pm
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Except
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 5:54pm
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Agreed.
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FarFromHome
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Mar 3 2009, 6:23pm
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I don't think so.
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 6:48pm
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Aragorn as Elessar does not receive the Power of the Ring
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squire
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Mar 3 2009, 5:51pm
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That line can be fuzzy.
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 6:02pm
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Well, he is a King, for gods' sake.
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squire
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Mar 3 2009, 7:12pm
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No, not sinister at all.
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Curious
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Mar 3 2009, 7:31pm
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Police
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 4 2009, 2:19am
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Where is the inquest
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Curious
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Mar 4 2009, 2:23am
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Something subtler
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 4 2009, 2:28am
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I find your point more persuasive than squire's.
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Curious
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Mar 4 2009, 2:13pm
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Thank you!
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 4 2009, 3:52pm
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Is the Guard a police force?
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Curious
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Mar 4 2009, 6:05pm
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I concede both points...
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 5 2009, 4:32am
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So what?
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squire
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Mar 4 2009, 3:10am
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Sure I can imagine it.
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Curious
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Mar 4 2009, 11:14am
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That explains a lot.
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squire
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Mar 4 2009, 11:40am
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Good points--important distinction! //
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 4 2009, 2:10am
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I won't repeat
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Curious
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Mar 2 2009, 6:04pm
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Agreed.
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 2 2009, 6:21pm
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Yep, there's a bright line between them.//
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Curious
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Mar 2 2009, 6:32pm
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My edits vanished
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 2 2009, 4:02pm
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Oops--they didn't disappear!
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 2 2009, 4:04pm
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Tolkien's characters *are* believable within
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Curious
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Mar 2 2009, 5:16pm
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Think of hobbits as a lens, not as authors
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squire
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Mar 1 2009, 7:40pm
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That works for me.
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FarFromHome
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Mar 2 2009, 5:28pm
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FYI: "mythology for England" isn't Tolkien's phrase.
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 2 2009, 5:46pm
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I take back the "gag" remark
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squire
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Mar 2 2009, 6:54pm
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Fair enough.
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FarFromHome
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Mar 2 2009, 7:13pm
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I tend to agree with the 'hobbit-lens' rather than 'hobbit-author' distinction you make
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sador
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Mar 2 2009, 7:28pm
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I discussed most of these points
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Curious
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Mar 2 2009, 12:16am
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What's the big deal?
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 26 2009, 2:01pm
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I don't have any problem with your approach.
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 5:24pm
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Dog Chasing the Tail
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 26 2009, 10:45pm
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Can we not take this subject any further?
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 26 2009, 11:05pm
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Agreed.
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 11:09pm
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I agree totaslly
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Tolkien Forever
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Feb 26 2009, 11:14pm
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No, I hate Tolkien.
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 11:07pm
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Enchantment and Disillusionment
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 26 2009, 5:16pm
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I like finding a middle ground.
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 5:37pm
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Thank you for a gentlemanly response...
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 26 2009, 5:56pm
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It's possible.
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 6:21pm
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It's not unpublished.
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FarFromHome
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Feb 26 2009, 6:33pm
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Written before LOTR was published.
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 26 2009, 6:45pm
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You are quite correct
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 26 2009, 9:13pm
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I don't think Tolkien lived in his own fantasy land all the time.
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squire
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Feb 26 2009, 10:08pm
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You mistake my meaning
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 26 2009, 10:27pm
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I get you now
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squire
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Feb 26 2009, 11:35pm
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I agree with both you and Curious about the narrator of LOTR
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 26 2009, 11:42pm
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I'll have to disagree...
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Morthoron
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Feb 27 2009, 2:00am
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Who saw and reported on the "most tragic moment" in LOTR?
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 27 2009, 2:11am
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Very true...
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Morthoron
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Feb 27 2009, 2:39am
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Hmm.
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 27 2009, 2:55am
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Not quite that.
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FarFromHome
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Mar 1 2009, 4:33pm
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Do you really think
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Mar 1 2009, 4:49pm
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Well, it's certainly arguable
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squire
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Mar 1 2009, 5:05pm
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Sure.
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 1 2009, 5:09pm
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Focusing on the hobbits protagonists is not the same
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Curious
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Feb 27 2009, 8:13am
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In the Prologue, Merry is considered to be a bit of an author
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sador
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Feb 27 2009, 8:29am
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And I would argue
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Curious
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Feb 26 2009, 10:57pm
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What if your premise is wrong?
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 26 2009, 6:18pm
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Yes
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 27 2009, 4:27am
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Harder and more elusive.
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 27 2009, 5:02am
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Now it was my turn!
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sador
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Feb 24 2009, 1:43pm
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