|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Adanedhel
Bree
Apr 11 2007, 4:23pm
Views: 1212
Shortcut
|
It makes more sense in the real world
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
if you believe in a benevolent God as Tolkien (and Gandalf) did. Gandalf wasn't flawless, not even in his own opinion, but he believed in mercy and not passing judgment without having to. It has to do with estel and believing that good will overcome in the end even though it seems very unwise not to enforce your will at the moment. Gandalf realized that he was not all seeing/knowing so he didn't "execute" unless forced. Many things the "wise" did were not logical (attacking the black gate?!!) but enforcing their will on someone who was not an immediate danger was deemed as wrong (though perhaps justifiable) and was in fact their major issue with Sauron, his enforcing his will and dominating others. Free will seems to have been considered by the wise as precious and messing with it was risky. The wise weren't pacifists or fatalists ("it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succor of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till.") but they knew there was stuff going on behind the scenes that was beyond their wisdom. The Istari weren't even sent to rule but to inspire. I can see how those who don't believe in an absolute good (or an omnipotent, benevolent God) in our world would have a problem with this - we are the only ones looking out for ourselves then. But in M-e this was clearly not the case.
|
|
|
Subject
|
User
|
Time
|
*WISE Passage of the Day* No. 3 - The Pity of Bilbo
|
Advising Elf
|
Apr 10 2007, 5:12pm
|
Pity can be seen as condescending, however.
|
Curious
|
Apr 10 2007, 6:41pm
|
Well...
|
Darkstone
|
Apr 10 2007, 7:01pm
|
Responsibility and redemption.
|
Advising Elf
|
Apr 10 2007, 8:59pm
|
I have to disagree
|
FarFromHome
|
Apr 10 2007, 9:13pm
|
Wow! A bit harsh on Gandalf, no?
|
Curious
|
Apr 10 2007, 9:33pm
|
Well, yes
|
FarFromHome
|
Apr 10 2007, 10:18pm
|
How about humble himself?
|
Curious
|
Apr 10 2007, 11:08pm
|
I quite agree with you here...
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 13 2007, 8:56am
|
I don't think that it is huiliation
|
Daughter of Nienna
|
Apr 11 2007, 6:38am
|
Your point is excellent
|
Ugly Troll
|
Apr 12 2007, 1:17am
|
There is no such thing as instant quick fixes
|
Daughter of Nienna
|
Apr 12 2007, 3:44am
|
But didn't Gandalf take the others
|
grammaboodawg
|
Apr 12 2007, 4:51pm
|
Exactly.
|
Curious
|
Apr 12 2007, 5:26pm
|
And Beregond.
|
grammaboodawg
|
Apr 12 2007, 6:44pm
|
When the person's problem is primarily pride,
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 13 2007, 11:12am
|
True
|
Darkstone
|
Apr 10 2007, 9:22pm
|
And sometimes it is beyond any earthly power /
|
Daughter of Nienna
|
Apr 11 2007, 6:40am
|
Quite right; said something similar just now myself,
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 13 2007, 11:33am
|
There is some redemption in Tolkien's world.
|
Curious
|
Apr 10 2007, 9:20pm
|
But...
|
Darkstone
|
Apr 10 2007, 9:26pm
|
Not every redemption
|
Curious
|
Apr 10 2007, 9:43pm
|
But...
|
Darkstone
|
Apr 10 2007, 9:48pm
|
As I said above,
|
Curious
|
Apr 10 2007, 10:11pm
|
What about Gollum?! ?
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 11 2007, 7:49am
|
Gollum was never redeemed.
|
Advising Elf
|
Apr 11 2007, 1:14pm
|
Well, it would seem Tolkien had a more nuanced opinion;
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 11 2007, 2:18pm
|
Well....
|
Darkstone
|
Apr 11 2007, 2:26pm
|
The pity or mercy that's given
|
grammaboodawg
|
Apr 12 2007, 4:40pm
|
Well...
|
Darkstone
|
Apr 13 2007, 5:58pm
|
How is that?... Please elaborate,
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 14 2007, 7:26am
|
Clarification?
|
Darkstone
|
Apr 16 2007, 1:35pm
|
Please re-read carefully what I said
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 17 2007, 11:31am
|
"... willing to offer... "
|
grammaboodawg
|
Apr 14 2007, 8:58am
|
A brief reply
|
Advising Elf
|
Apr 10 2007, 8:53pm
|
The Professor knew his words.
|
Curious
|
Apr 10 2007, 10:42pm
|
You should get some perspective before you dismiss this concept
|
a.s.
|
Apr 11 2007, 12:26am
|
See, that's the problem with the Primary World.
|
Curious
|
Apr 11 2007, 12:50am
|
C'me on, in M-e too, 'not all kings and counsellors are wise father figures'!... And even nowadays,
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 11 2007, 10:20am
|
I'm afraid
|
Curious
|
Apr 11 2007, 11:43am
|
In your quotes, Tolkien speaks of the Hobbits as a species with visible physical differences:
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 11 2007, 1:21pm
|
Tolkien's characters
|
FarFromHome
|
Apr 11 2007, 4:07pm
|
I'll agree with "idealized."
|
Curious
|
Apr 11 2007, 5:26pm
|
"aroused by the misfortune of another"
|
a.s.
|
Apr 11 2007, 11:18am
|
Ithink we're havaing a semantics issue here.
|
Advising Elf
|
Apr 11 2007, 1:31pm
|
no it's not
|
a.s.
|
Apr 11 2007, 3:29pm
|
I take it then, . . .
|
Advising Elf
|
Apr 11 2007, 3:50pm
|
I have already indicated
|
a.s.
|
Apr 11 2007, 4:18pm
|
I never implied that . . .
|
Advising Elf
|
Apr 11 2007, 4:38pm
|
*readies bucket of water*
|
Ataahua
|
Apr 11 2007, 8:50pm
|
Interesting post, a.s.
|
N.E. Brigand
|
Apr 11 2007, 7:53pm
|
Perhaps that's why movie-Frodo's pity
|
FarFromHome
|
Apr 10 2007, 8:55pm
|
And it is a significant departure from the book.
|
Curious
|
Apr 10 2007, 10:06pm
|
That's true
|
FarFromHome
|
Apr 10 2007, 10:30pm
|
Are heroes unreal?
|
Curious
|
Apr 10 2007, 11:38pm
|
That's an interesting question!
|
FarFromHome
|
Apr 11 2007, 6:41am
|
Tolkien 'telling only one part of the story of the "real world"'?!?
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 12 2007, 9:15am
|
You're misunderstanding my point, I think
|
FarFromHome
|
Apr 12 2007, 9:38am
|
Sorry if I did, and thank you for the clarification! :-) /
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 13 2007, 11:45am
|
I think Darkstone is on your side.
|
Curious
|
Apr 12 2007, 3:12pm
|
'Mythic heroes'??? ''Tolkien edited out...'??? What are we talking about?!?
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 11 2007, 8:40am
|
where is Aragorn "flawed to start with"?
|
a.s.
|
Apr 11 2007, 11:36am
|
I agree with mae govannen
|
Ainu Laire
|
Apr 11 2007, 11:16pm
|
Wonderful: you have written for me the post I needed to write !!! :-)
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 12 2007, 7:28am
|
But needing and accepting help isn't a flaw
|
FarFromHome
|
Apr 12 2007, 8:58am
|
Where does book-Frodo show 'cool, condescending pity'?
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 11 2007, 10:35am
|
The film shows the transition so well
|
grammaboodawg
|
Apr 13 2007, 8:51am
|
Movie-Frodo's attitude to Gollum is quite different from the book, I think.
|
FarFromHome
|
Apr 13 2007, 4:19pm
|
Perfect!
|
grammaboodawg
|
Apr 14 2007, 9:03am
|
Middle-earth is as complicated as the Primary World,
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 12 2007, 12:43pm
|
Its not just suffering that makes you great but being forced to
|
Adanedhel
|
Apr 12 2007, 1:58pm
|
That's exactly it, I would say!...
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 13 2007, 8:47am
|
I think the inner and outer greatness,
|
Curious
|
Apr 12 2007, 3:01pm
|
But WHY do they govern the Shire in the end?... Not just because
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 13 2007, 4:32am
|
Well, my other post about WWII & LOTR was actually
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 13 2007, 5:41am
|
Moral relativism.
|
Advising Elf
|
Apr 10 2007, 9:23pm
|
Exactly my problem.
|
Darkstone
|
Apr 10 2007, 9:29pm
|
Hmm...
|
Morwen
|
Apr 10 2007, 10:03pm
|
We don't know if those stories are true.
|
Curious
|
Apr 10 2007, 11:33pm
|
But...
|
Darkstone
|
Apr 11 2007, 12:33am
|
If Saruman had not gone to the Shire
|
Curious
|
Apr 11 2007, 12:54am
|
You think?
|
Darkstone
|
Apr 11 2007, 1:44am
|
Is Saruman right?
|
N.E. Brigand
|
Apr 11 2007, 3:07am
|
Depends on who he's talking about.
|
Darkstone
|
Apr 11 2007, 1:55pm
|
Gandalf as Machiavelli?
|
Curious
|
Apr 11 2007, 2:26pm
|
Gandalf as Sisyphus?
|
Darkstone
|
Apr 11 2007, 2:55pm
|
I've enjoyed reading your debate
|
FarFromHome
|
Apr 11 2007, 3:50pm
|
It makes more sense in the real world
|
Adanedhel
|
Apr 11 2007, 4:23pm
|
That is true
|
FarFromHome
|
Apr 11 2007, 4:42pm
|
It didn't happen in Middle earth either.
|
Adanedhel
|
Apr 11 2007, 4:52pm
|
I'm only talking about LotR
|
FarFromHome
|
Apr 11 2007, 5:42pm
|
Perhaps great spiritual persons you don't know yet of
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 15 2007, 7:53am
|
Wonderfully correct... and after all,
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 15 2007, 6:47am
|
Thanks!
|
Darkstone
|
Apr 11 2007, 4:46pm
|
How about "idealized"?
|
Curious
|
Apr 11 2007, 5:40pm
|
But...
|
Darkstone
|
Apr 11 2007, 6:02pm
|
Please introduce me
|
Curious
|
Apr 11 2007, 7:09pm
|
Sure thing!
|
Darkstone
|
Apr 11 2007, 7:22pm
|
The 'decline of the world' is only
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 14 2007, 10:04am
|
Well!!
|
Darkstone
|
Apr 16 2007, 1:28pm
|
It's not an attack at all,
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 17 2007, 8:48am
|
Speaking of Machiavelli...
|
N.E. Brigand
|
Apr 11 2007, 7:00pm
|
To answer your question, no.
|
Curious
|
Apr 11 2007, 8:28pm
|
So, it seems to all boil down to this:
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 12 2007, 3:50pm
|
Nope.
|
Darkstone
|
Apr 12 2007, 7:25pm
|
Sorry, I do apologise for getting all worked up...!
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 13 2007, 8:24am
|
No problemio
|
Darkstone
|
Apr 13 2007, 2:58pm
|
Thanks for this; but, re. your last question... what say YOU? /
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 13 2007, 3:17pm
|
Well...
|
Darkstone
|
Apr 13 2007, 4:06pm
|
True enough
|
Adanedhel
|
Apr 13 2007, 7:24pm
|
Freedom of will
|
FarFromHome
|
Apr 13 2007, 8:12pm
|
"Lack of alternatives clears the mind."
|
Advising Elf
|
Apr 13 2007, 8:40pm
|
That's exactly my point
|
FarFromHome
|
Apr 13 2007, 8:50pm
|
You're getting way of ahead of me! // ;o)
|
Advising Elf
|
Apr 13 2007, 8:20pm
|
Perfect reply... I would only add that
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 14 2007, 10:54am
|
To be wise is not to be cruel.
|
Advising Elf
|
Apr 13 2007, 8:09pm
|
Dunno.
|
Darkstone
|
Apr 13 2007, 9:17pm
|
Oh my! Saruman relented?!
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 14 2007, 6:51am
|
He is deepely affected, but his pride still rears up.
|
Advising Elf
|
Apr 16 2007, 12:47pm
|
Well, we're saying two interesting variations of the same thing,
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 17 2007, 12:04pm
|
Hear, hear! I agree fully.
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 14 2007, 7:50am
|
{{hugs Darkstone}} Proof! LotR is great literature!!!
|
dernwyn
|
Apr 13 2007, 10:54am
|
Ooops! Forgot to do and say that to Darkstone myself!...
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 13 2007, 11:24am
|
Yep.
|
Curious
|
Apr 13 2007, 10:07pm
|
It sounds like you're a fan of Bored of the Rings.
|
Curious
|
Apr 11 2007, 11:17am
|
Gandalf as a theodicean?
|
Darkstone
|
Apr 11 2007, 1:37pm
|
Yes, they are human
|
Curious
|
Apr 11 2007, 2:17pm
|
Well....
|
Darkstone
|
Apr 11 2007, 3:08pm
|
Frodo as a Candide figure
|
FarFromHome
|
Apr 12 2007, 8:20pm
|
That's OK so long as you've got Gandalf's intuition handy.
|
L. Ron Halfelven
|
Apr 11 2007, 2:50pm
|
Intuition is not only for the Gandalfs...
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 15 2007, 5:17am
|
I forgot to add that
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 15 2007, 5:31am
|
The apparent result is not the only one...
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 14 2007, 8:07am
|
That's the exact thing I was avoiding until the next post.//
|
Advising Elf
|
Apr 11 2007, 1:37pm
|
I'm glad someone is at last saying this... And the kind of hierarchy
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 11 2007, 12:08pm
|
Or to quote Robert Heinlein,
|
Curious
|
Apr 11 2007, 1:17pm
|
ownership
|
Ciars
|
Apr 11 2007, 5:56pm
|
Very interesting!
|
Darkstone
|
Apr 11 2007, 6:10pm
|
I just mean that if I can
|
Adanedhel
|
Apr 11 2007, 6:10pm
|
Definitely so, IMO.
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 12 2007, 12:54pm
|
Bilbo wasn't redeemed by his Pity. . .
|
Advising Elf
|
Apr 11 2007, 6:26pm
|
Maybe
|
Ciars
|
Apr 11 2007, 6:33pm
|
Bilbo had the same reaction as Frodo
|
grammaboodawg
|
Apr 12 2007, 4:29pm
|
Thank you for this continuing series, by the way.
|
Curious
|
Apr 13 2007, 11:58am
|
You're welcome.
|
Advising Elf
|
Apr 16 2007, 2:06pm
|
"Not to strike without need"
|
linkin-artelf
|
Apr 14 2007, 10:18pm
|
'You have not seen him.'
|
mae govannen
|
Apr 15 2007, 7:13am
|
|
|
|