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FarFromHome
Valinor
Feb 3 2009, 9:33am
Views: 3249
Shortcut
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I don't read the Appendices, and yet
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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I think LotR would be a lesser work without them, and without all the rest of the lore of Middle-earth that is found in the Sil and other writings. LotR is without a doubt the jewel in the crown of Tolkien's Gesamtkunstwerk, and it can indeed be prised from its setting and valued for its own sake. However, I think doing so rejects the context that makes the story so powerful. As you say in your response to squire, the "stereotype and cliche" some see in LotR is actually a reworking of elements from romance and fairytales. Agreed, and I'd say that it is LotR's context as a romance or tale embedded in the world of Middle-earth, as opposed to as a standalone novel, that allows Tolkien to reuse traditional elements in this way. As for the race, class and gender issues, again the context of a tale written within the background of Middle-earth provides important perspective. If you think of Tolkien as a mere novelist, you find yourself having to assume that the world Tolkien describes is one he's advocating. If you imagine him instead as a 'historian', reporting and translating views from another time, it becomes easier to see that Tolkien isn't necessarily advocating what he describes (and indeed, from his Letters, he seems to have had quite different personal views from what we see in Middle-earth). His own opinions might be better assessed by considering that, having established this background of race-based, class-based and gender-based hierarchy, Tolkien immediately turns around and creates characters who transcend them all.
Farewell, friends! I hear the call. The ship’s beside the stony wall. Foam is white and waves are grey; beyond the sunset leads my way. Bilbo's Last Song
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Subject
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User
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Time
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The Numenorean Kingdoms, part XI - bridge-film material?
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sador
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Feb 1 2009, 8:25am
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Would LotR be better without the appendices?
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Curious
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Feb 1 2009, 12:15pm
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A good argument
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squire
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Feb 1 2009, 2:59pm
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I agree
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Feb 1 2009, 3:49pm
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Sinister Nazi Tosh. Well two out of three ain't bad!
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Pryderi
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Feb 1 2009, 9:52pm
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I wouldn't call
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Ataahua
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Feb 1 2009, 11:35pm
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I wouldn't go so far
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Curious
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Feb 2 2009, 2:00pm
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Agreement and Clarification
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 2 2009, 8:45pm
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The Breelanders are related
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Curious
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Feb 2 2009, 9:12pm
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And yet, I don't read the appendices
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a.s.
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Feb 2 2009, 11:59am
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Isn't that a backhanded compliment?
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Curious
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Feb 2 2009, 1:45pm
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Aragorn is not a pure-blooded Númenórean.
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 1 2009, 3:41pm
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Isn't it bizarre that Aragorn's mixed blood
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Curious
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Feb 2 2009, 5:20pm
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Do we know that Aragorn's northern ancestors didn't marry outside the tribe?
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 2 2009, 5:41pm
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Since it's halftime
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Elros
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Feb 2 2009, 2:05am
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Would it irk you
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 2 2009, 4:20am
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I guess it depends where...
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sador
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Feb 2 2009, 7:57am
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Sorry for jumping the gun. Your
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Curious
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Feb 2 2009, 2:28pm
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That's ok, of course
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sador
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Feb 2 2009, 2:40pm
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Which is another reason
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Curious
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Feb 2 2009, 3:00pm
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Agreement!
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 2 2009, 8:36pm
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I will concede
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Elros
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Feb 2 2009, 6:34pm
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Racism requires progeny.
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Curious
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Feb 2 2009, 6:53pm
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Tolkien would be appalled
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FarFromHome
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Feb 3 2009, 2:28pm
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But Tolkien also called LotR
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Curious
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Feb 3 2009, 7:09pm
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No offense taken. Except that you apparently don't like
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Curious
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Feb 2 2009, 2:12pm
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The E Street Band
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Elros
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Feb 2 2009, 6:44pm
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The only relevance...
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 2 2009, 9:06pm
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The Noldor
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 2 2009, 8:32pm
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Sam is still a brown-skinned hero.
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Beren IV
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Feb 3 2009, 12:13am
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That's an interesting perspective! //
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 3 2009, 2:01am
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All men are brothers.
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Darkstone
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Feb 3 2009, 6:23pm
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Elros the racist
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Elros
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Feb 3 2009, 1:57am
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The phrase "Drunk as a lord" comes to mind...
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 3 2009, 2:09am
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Not for me.
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White Gull
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Feb 2 2009, 5:32pm
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Now there's an argument I can get behind.
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Curious
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Feb 2 2009, 5:41pm
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I'll second that!
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simplyaven
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Feb 3 2009, 4:33am
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Classism is more
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Curious
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Feb 3 2009, 1:08pm
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Classism is a hot button in countries with minorities too :)
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simplyaven
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Feb 4 2009, 3:08am
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If I had that attitude...
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 3 2009, 5:16pm
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Cooling down somewhat...
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 3 2009, 5:28pm
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Actually I've seen it the other way around so we are not that far
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simplyaven
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Feb 4 2009, 3:34am
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The things I read affected me.
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 4 2009, 5:04am
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This is a whole different story and very sad
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simplyaven
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Feb 4 2009, 3:19pm
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You've never been exposed to Westerns?
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Curious
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Feb 4 2009, 3:55pm
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I was talking about literature
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simplyaven
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Feb 4 2009, 4:15pm
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I love Grimm's Fairy Tales, just as
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Curious
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Feb 4 2009, 4:46pm
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Justified mentioning of evil things
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simplyaven
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Feb 4 2009, 4:55pm
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I judge
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Curious
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Feb 4 2009, 5:15pm
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Ah hm
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simplyaven
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Feb 4 2009, 5:37pm
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Regarding children,
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Curious
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Feb 5 2009, 10:09pm
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Exactly...
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simplyaven
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Feb 5 2009, 11:31pm
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Wicked stepmothers
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 4 2009, 6:08pm
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Interesting!
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Curious
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Feb 5 2009, 10:03pm
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"Grimm's Grimmest"...
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 6 2009, 12:20am
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Thanks for this! I'll buy this book. //
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simplyaven
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Feb 6 2009, 2:16am
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Coincidentally
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FarFromHome
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Feb 6 2009, 7:08pm
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Everyone has a choice...
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simplyaven
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Feb 6 2009, 7:37pm
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I agree
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FarFromHome
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Feb 6 2009, 9:56pm
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Exactly!
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simplyaven
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Feb 7 2009, 1:03am
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Scary
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 7 2009, 2:21am
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Alexander the Great
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 6 2009, 8:39pm
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Alexander
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Jettorex
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Feb 6 2009, 9:28pm
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Ah, that's "my" guy ;)
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simplyaven
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Feb 7 2009, 1:07am
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Ah, so you are Macedonian? or Bulgarian?
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 7 2009, 3:00am
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Both plus some more
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simplyaven
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Feb 7 2009, 4:11am
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your Macedonian?
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Jettorex
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Feb 7 2009, 3:37am
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See my post to Dreamdeer :) //
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simplyaven
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Feb 7 2009, 4:19am
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Alexander had two.
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 7 2009, 2:11am
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Wander please
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Jettorex
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Feb 7 2009, 4:24am
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Who really killed Phillip?
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 7 2009, 7:30am
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the story i heard...
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Jettorex
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Feb 7 2009, 2:05pm
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Yes, that did happen...
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 7 2009, 5:59pm
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We're talking about Aragorn, right?
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Curious
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Feb 7 2009, 7:08pm
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Significant indeed!
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 7 2009, 7:30pm
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Alexander the Northern Star? How does it work?
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simplyaven
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Feb 7 2009, 8:31pm
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Just trying to
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Curious
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Feb 8 2009, 12:10pm
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We study Alexander, not Cyrus, because
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squire
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Feb 8 2009, 1:19pm
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Is adding to that mythology
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Curious
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Feb 8 2009, 2:25pm
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I don't know about the education you describe but...
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simplyaven
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Feb 8 2009, 4:15pm
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In regards to Tolkien and Greece...
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Morthoron
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Feb 8 2009, 5:09pm
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Most probably
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simplyaven
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Feb 8 2009, 9:47pm
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Bucephalos could have been a big one + some legends
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simplyaven
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Feb 7 2009, 8:23pm
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"The poison was water"
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 8 2009, 4:13am
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I can't think of such connection
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simplyaven
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Feb 8 2009, 5:01am
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I second Dreamdeer on this
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simplyaven
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Feb 8 2009, 12:45am
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People are condemning Alexander? For being a ruthless conqueror?
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squire
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Feb 6 2009, 10:41pm
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Alexander first or...?
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 7 2009, 2:44am
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Gondor! Gondor! (You crossed the border.) //
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 7 2009, 4:46am
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Huh? oh...
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squire
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Feb 7 2009, 5:32am
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*applause* Nicely done! /
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Ataahua
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Feb 7 2009, 8:19pm
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I'm opting for the Annotated Grimm's
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Curious
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Feb 6 2009, 7:37pm
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"All my father's writings have appendices."
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Darkstone
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Feb 2 2009, 11:00pm
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Thank you!
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 3 2009, 1:59am
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Kissin' cousins
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squire
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Feb 3 2009, 2:44am
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a question for those discussing race/ism...
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batik
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Feb 3 2009, 3:02am
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It depends on what you want
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 3 2009, 4:48pm
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thanks for the input---
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batik
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Feb 4 2009, 2:41am
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Personally I check multiple boxes.
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Darkstone
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Feb 3 2009, 5:59pm
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My grand-daughter writes in "human"
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sevilodorf
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Feb 4 2009, 4:29am
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Dunno if I could get away with that.
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Darkstone
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Feb 4 2009, 4:13pm
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I don't read the Appendices, and yet
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FarFromHome
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Feb 3 2009, 9:33am
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Excellent post//
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Elros
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Feb 3 2009, 12:29pm
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"Well-intentioned racialism survives."
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 5 2009, 6:38pm
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I am a troublemaker, it seems.
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Curious
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Feb 5 2009, 7:38pm
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Disturbing the comfortable?
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 5 2009, 7:52pm
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Racist, not Radical
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Ghills
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Feb 2 2009, 7:44am
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But race and lineage were less important
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Curious
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Feb 2 2009, 2:05pm
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Not necesarily. Hobbit culture = quiet context culture, which is unique in LOTR
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Ghills
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Feb 2 2009, 3:02pm
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I did say
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Curious
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Feb 2 2009, 3:48pm
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Hobbit Bloodlines
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 2 2009, 8:56pm
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It's certainly important to the hobbits -- ridiculously so
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Curious
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Feb 2 2009, 9:24pm
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Did he?
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sador
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Feb 2 2009, 10:07pm
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Oh dear me!
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 2 2009, 10:27pm
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Well, you had me going.
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Curious
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Feb 2 2009, 11:30pm
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Let's just say...
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FarFromHome
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Feb 3 2009, 1:47pm
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This is fantasy, folks.
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Beren IV
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Feb 2 2009, 4:23pm
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Why not?
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Curious
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Feb 2 2009, 4:48pm
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Racism
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Beren IV
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Feb 2 2009, 7:20pm
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Race is a hot-button issue today.
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Curious
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Feb 2 2009, 8:56pm
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Another thing we can agree on Curious
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Elros
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Feb 3 2009, 2:18am
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We need to understand where Tolkien fits today
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Ghills
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Feb 3 2009, 3:14pm
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I guess I better edit my biography
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Elros
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Feb 4 2009, 12:52pm
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This is a whole different conversation, but
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Curious
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Feb 4 2009, 1:59pm
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Ramping down the words
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 4 2009, 6:02pm
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Environmental depredations
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Beren IV
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Feb 4 2009, 6:32pm
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We're in good company
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 4 2009, 7:23pm
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Tolkien wrote a poem about drugged elephants.
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 4 2009, 8:11pm
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But do they cause extinctions?
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Beren IV
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Feb 4 2009, 8:18pm
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I guess I will just never understand
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Elros
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Feb 4 2009, 7:29pm
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Distinctions
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 4 2009, 8:14pm
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Tell me something i don't know
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Elros
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Feb 4 2009, 10:01pm
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Is Aragorn better than everyone else because he's Númenórean?
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 4 2009, 10:57pm
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They do indeed!
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Elros
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Feb 5 2009, 1:31am
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MOS is Númenórean.
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Darkstone
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Feb 5 2009, 2:34pm
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Better does not
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Curious
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Feb 5 2009, 3:54pm
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Tortoise versus hare.
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Darkstone
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Feb 5 2009, 5:38pm
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But the tortoise is secretly a hare.
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 5 2009, 5:55pm
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Exactly!
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Darkstone
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Feb 5 2009, 6:15pm
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Great post!
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simplyaven
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Feb 5 2009, 6:44pm
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Beowulf's an interesting comparison.
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Curious
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Feb 5 2009, 6:45pm
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Well
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Darkstone
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Feb 5 2009, 7:45pm
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How so?
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Curious
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Feb 5 2009, 8:19pm
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Well!!
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Darkstone
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Feb 5 2009, 8:42pm
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Wonderfully subversive, I meant.
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Curious
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Feb 5 2009, 10:00pm
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Farmer Giles of Ham
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 6 2009, 12:17am
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Not so late.
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 6 2009, 12:33am
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My mistake.
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 6 2009, 12:39am
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You illustrate my point...
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 5 2009, 11:54pm
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Yep
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Darkstone
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Feb 6 2009, 2:46am
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What does the First Age
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Curious
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Feb 4 2009, 11:08pm
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Sorry to get you involved again Curious
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Elros
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Feb 5 2009, 1:14am
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Oh, I don't think he minds.
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 6 2009, 4:30am
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Easy now...
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 5 2009, 4:55am
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We aren't talking about you
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Ghills
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Feb 5 2009, 4:11pm
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Not true
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simplyaven
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Feb 5 2009, 4:34pm
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Respectfully beg to differ
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Ghills
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Feb 5 2009, 5:03pm
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We'll have to agree to disagree
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simplyaven
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Feb 5 2009, 5:31pm
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Since LotR is already denounced
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Curious
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Feb 5 2009, 5:03pm
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Farther back than you know. Which is a point.
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a.s.
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Feb 5 2009, 5:44pm
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1849
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Darkstone
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Feb 5 2009, 6:03pm
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Fair enough. I was trying to
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Curious
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Feb 5 2009, 6:24pm
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Yes, And Gone With The Wind was popular, too.
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a.s.
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Feb 5 2009, 6:33pm
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And not just the dominant race.
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 6 2009, 12:14am
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Wow
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Beren IV
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Feb 6 2009, 2:57am
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I just saw this post of yours..
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Jettorex
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Feb 6 2009, 9:36pm
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That was me...
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FarFromHome
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Feb 6 2009, 10:17pm
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Thank you! //
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 5 2009, 11:56pm
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Being denounced is no indicator of anything...
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FarFromHome
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Feb 5 2009, 5:56pm
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Another unconscious prejudice?
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 5 2009, 6:06pm
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I hadn't seen a.s.'s post
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FarFromHome
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Feb 5 2009, 6:18pm
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when one race alone *benefits* from "blood line", that is racism at work.
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a.s.
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Feb 5 2009, 6:19pm
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Do they still lead?
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Dreamdeer
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Feb 6 2009, 12:00am
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Did not mean to give offense
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Ghills
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Feb 5 2009, 3:53pm
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Princess Finduilas of Dol Amroth
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Darkstone
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Feb 2 2009, 5:48pm
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Do John Noble and Viggo Mortensen look alike?
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N.E. Brigand
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Feb 2 2009, 5:51pm
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Eurocentricity
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a.s.
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Feb 4 2009, 10:32pm
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It's good you're back!
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sador
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Feb 5 2009, 8:01am
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possibly. Remember, I don't read the appendices much. :-)
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a.s.
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Feb 5 2009, 5:14pm
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Umbar, not Harad, I think
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Ghills
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Feb 5 2009, 10:26pm
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In the Akallabeth
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sador
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Feb 6 2009, 7:34am
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I stand corrected
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Ghills
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Feb 6 2009, 3:57pm
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Thank you...
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Ghills
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Feb 5 2009, 10:38pm
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