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"All my father's writings have appendices."

Darkstone
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Feb 2 2009, 11:00pm

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"All my father's writings have appendices." [In reply to]	Can't Post

Tolkien himself questioned the value of the appendices, with the exception of the story of Aragorn and Arwen. Most of Appendix A sets up Aragorn's story, giving us the long history of Numenor and Arnor and Gondor, and some background history for Aragorn himself. But LotR is not Aragorn's story, which is why this information did not make its way into the main text.

And why Peter Jackson excised much of Aragorn�s story from the Theatrical Version of FOTR.

And I've never been comfortable with the whole concept that Aragorn is better than everyone else because of his ancestry.

The nineteenth century concept of �race� also included culture. The Numenorean �race� itself is far from good. They grew jealous of the Elves, tyrannical towards other Men, and rebelled against the Valar. What makes Aragorn and his forebears better than everyone else is their culture. It is their culture of loyalty to the Valar and friendship with the Elves. They are the Faithful. From that viewpoint Elf-Friends Frodo and Bilbo are indeed on a par with Aragorn. On the other hand while Gandalf said the blood of Numenor ran true in Denethor, in the end the Steward renounced the Valar for the Pagan Gods of Old. He was not true to the culture of the Faithful.

Here is a telling exchange:

�Ever your desire is to appear lordly and generous as a king of old, gracious, gentle. That may well befit one of a high race, if he sits in power and peace. But in desperate hours gentleness may be repaid with death."
"So be it," said Faramir.

In certain circumstances Denethor would renounce his �blood�, his culture. Faramir would not in any circumstances.

Plus, I think the appendices distract both fans and critics from the profound themes to be found in the story proper. Many fans, like Tolkien himself, don't want the fantasy to end, and delight in speculating as we have this week about the stories behind the fictional history found in the appendices. Many go to the extent of creating their own fan fiction set in that world. We may even get a "bridge movie" set in that world. The appendices encourage fans to treat LotR more like a game than a work of literature.

A game Tolkien himself was encouraged to play:

I am not now at all sure that the tendency to treat the whole thing as a kind of vast game is really good � cert. not for me, who find that kind of thing only too fatally attractive. It is, I suppose, a tribute to the curious effect that story has, when based on very elaborate and detailed workings of geography, chronology, and language, that so many should clamour for sheer 'information', or 'lore'.
-Letter #160

For the critics, it's even worse. How can they treat Tolkien seriously when he insists on following up his story with pseudo-historical appendices that for the most part have no literary value?

We find similar techniques of pseudo-historical verisimilitude in Dracula, Frankenstein, The Screwtape Letters, and The Color Purple.

Do we find such appendices in any great work of art?

The Principles of Newspeak in George Orwell�s 1984.

The Book of Revelation, and arguably the entire New Testament of The Bible.

Also we are finding appendices more and more in great works of cinema on dvd. Perhaps Tolkien was simply ahead of his time. (An ironic thought considering his reactionary views.)

Ironically, most modern editions of great novels do indeed include similar appendices, only they are genuine in character, written by critics, historians, etc. to provide background they deem needed to understand the great work.

As we discuss the many questions raised by the appendices, I find myself struggling to say anything profound. The fictional history inspires endless speculation, but what is the point? Does it shed light on the text? Does it say something important?

Tolkien was of two minds about it:

I now wish that no appendices had been promised! For I think their appearance in truncated and compressed form will satisfy nobody: certainly not me; clearly from the (appalling mass of) letters I receive not those people who like that kind of thing � astonishingly many; while those who enjoy the book as an 'heroic romance' only, and find 'unexplained vistas' part of the literary effect, will neglect the appendices, very properly.
-Letter #160

Actually, an analysis of many hundreds of letters shows that the Appendices have played a very large part in reader's pleasure, in turning library readers into purchasers (since the Appendices are needed for reference), and in creating the demand for another book. A sharp distinction must be drawn between the tastes of reviewers ('donnish folly' and all that) and of readers!
-Letter #228

I think Tolkien�s observation that it plays �a very large part of reader�s pleasure� is the compelling argument.

One could argue there's no harm in it, but I'm not even sure of that -- as I noted, Tolkien's focus on the long line of Numenorean kings strikes me as classist and perhaps racist.

With the sudden discovery of Sam�s relation to the Fallohides simultaneous with him becoming a hero of the Shire I suspect to some extent Tolkien had tongue in cheek.

Tolkien does try to counter some of that with his account of the racial strife within Gondor, but then the northern line of kings is quite proud of its pure Numenorean blood.

Again, I�d say culture. I.e., their loyalty to the Valar and their friendship with the Elves. I�d say the former is a major reason for Gandalf�s mentoring of and friendship with Aragorn.

If the northern line marries outside of their kind -- which seems logical, considering their dwindling numbers -- Tolkien does not mention it.

That is, the Elvish and Gondorian editors do not mention it. Or at least excise any mention of it.

And the whole idea that Aragorn and Arwen reunite the two lines of the Half-elven seems elitist, borderline racist, and almost incestuous when Tolkien emphasizes Aragorn's pure blood, and when we consider that Aragorn was also Elrond's foster son.

Such intermarrying was the basis of Pax Victoria. Supposedly if all the royalty of Europe was inter-related, the thought of war would be impossible. I note her consort Prince Albert was Victoria's first cousin. His father was her mother's brother. Throughout history most royal marriages were to some degree incestuous.

The appendices do give the story a sense of depth, of history rather than fantasy. They also give Tolkien a place to put explanations which didn't fit in the text, and which otherwise he might have been tempted to put in the text. But so far, I still struggle to find something profound in the appendices, and I worry that, on balance, they diminish the story of LotR, which I do find to be profound.

I think they are the type of �false documents� that give the additional verisimilitude so that Tolkien can achieve the suspension of belief in The Green Sun. They are part of the �unexplained vistas� like �the crowns of seven kings, and the rods of the Five Wizards�. Some fantasy writers give us too much background; others not enough; I think Tolkien got it right.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.�

Subject	User	Time
The Numenorean Kingdoms, part XI - bridge-film material?	sador	Feb 1 2009, 8:25am
Would LotR be better without the appendices?	Curious	Feb 1 2009, 12:15pm
A good argument	squire	Feb 1 2009, 2:59pm
I agree	Voronw�_the_Faithful	Feb 1 2009, 3:49pm
Sinister Nazi Tosh. Well two out of three ain't bad!	Pryderi	Feb 1 2009, 9:52pm
I wouldn't call	Ataahua	Feb 1 2009, 11:35pm
I wouldn't go so far	Curious	Feb 2 2009, 2:00pm
Agreement and Clarification	Dreamdeer	Feb 2 2009, 8:45pm
The Breelanders are related	Curious	Feb 2 2009, 9:12pm
And yet, I don't read the appendices	a.s.	Feb 2 2009, 11:59am
Isn't that a backhanded compliment?	Curious	Feb 2 2009, 1:45pm
Aragorn is not a pure-blooded N�men�rean.	N.E. Brigand	Feb 1 2009, 3:41pm
Isn't it bizarre that Aragorn's mixed blood	Curious	Feb 2 2009, 5:20pm
Do we know that Aragorn's northern ancestors didn't marry outside the tribe?	N.E. Brigand	Feb 2 2009, 5:41pm
Since it's halftime	Elros	Feb 2 2009, 2:05am
Would it irk you	N.E. Brigand	Feb 2 2009, 4:20am
I guess it depends where...	sador	Feb 2 2009, 7:57am
Sorry for jumping the gun. Your	Curious	Feb 2 2009, 2:28pm
That's ok, of course	sador	Feb 2 2009, 2:40pm
Which is another reason	Curious	Feb 2 2009, 3:00pm
Agreement!	Dreamdeer	Feb 2 2009, 8:36pm
I will concede	Elros	Feb 2 2009, 6:34pm
Racism requires progeny.	Curious	Feb 2 2009, 6:53pm
Tolkien would be appalled	FarFromHome	Feb 3 2009, 2:28pm
But Tolkien also called LotR	Curious	Feb 3 2009, 7:09pm
No offense taken. Except that you apparently don't like	Curious	Feb 2 2009, 2:12pm
The E Street Band	Elros	Feb 2 2009, 6:44pm
The only relevance...	Dreamdeer	Feb 2 2009, 9:06pm
The Noldor	Dreamdeer	Feb 2 2009, 8:32pm
Sam is still a brown-skinned hero.	Beren IV	Feb 3 2009, 12:13am
That's an interesting perspective! //	Dreamdeer	Feb 3 2009, 2:01am
All men are brothers.	Darkstone	Feb 3 2009, 6:23pm
Elros the racist	Elros	Feb 3 2009, 1:57am
The phrase "Drunk as a lord" comes to mind...	Dreamdeer	Feb 3 2009, 2:09am
Not for me.	White Gull	Feb 2 2009, 5:32pm
Now there's an argument I can get behind.	Curious	Feb 2 2009, 5:41pm
I'll second that!	simplyaven	Feb 3 2009, 4:33am
Classism is more	Curious	Feb 3 2009, 1:08pm
Classism is a hot button in countries with minorities too :)	simplyaven	Feb 4 2009, 3:08am
If I had that attitude...	Dreamdeer	Feb 3 2009, 5:16pm
Cooling down somewhat...	Dreamdeer	Feb 3 2009, 5:28pm
Actually I've seen it the other way around so we are not that far	simplyaven	Feb 4 2009, 3:34am
The things I read affected me.	Dreamdeer	Feb 4 2009, 5:04am
This is a whole different story and very sad	simplyaven	Feb 4 2009, 3:19pm
You've never been exposed to Westerns?	Curious	Feb 4 2009, 3:55pm
I was talking about literature	simplyaven	Feb 4 2009, 4:15pm
I love Grimm's Fairy Tales, just as	Curious	Feb 4 2009, 4:46pm
Justified mentioning of evil things	simplyaven	Feb 4 2009, 4:55pm
I judge	Curious	Feb 4 2009, 5:15pm
Ah hm	simplyaven	Feb 4 2009, 5:37pm
Regarding children,	Curious	Feb 5 2009, 10:09pm
Exactly...	simplyaven	Feb 5 2009, 11:31pm
Wicked stepmothers	Dreamdeer	Feb 4 2009, 6:08pm
Interesting!	Curious	Feb 5 2009, 10:03pm
"Grimm's Grimmest"...	Dreamdeer	Feb 6 2009, 12:20am
Thanks for this! I'll buy this book. //	simplyaven	Feb 6 2009, 2:16am
Coincidentally	FarFromHome	Feb 6 2009, 7:08pm
Everyone has a choice...	simplyaven	Feb 6 2009, 7:37pm
I agree	FarFromHome	Feb 6 2009, 9:56pm
Exactly!	simplyaven	Feb 7 2009, 1:03am
Scary	Dreamdeer	Feb 7 2009, 2:21am
Alexander the Great	Dreamdeer	Feb 6 2009, 8:39pm
Alexander	Jettorex	Feb 6 2009, 9:28pm
Ah, that's "my" guy ;)	simplyaven	Feb 7 2009, 1:07am
Ah, so you are Macedonian? or Bulgarian?	Dreamdeer	Feb 7 2009, 3:00am
Both plus some more	simplyaven	Feb 7 2009, 4:11am
your Macedonian?	Jettorex	Feb 7 2009, 3:37am
See my post to Dreamdeer :) //	simplyaven	Feb 7 2009, 4:19am
Alexander had two.	Dreamdeer	Feb 7 2009, 2:11am
Wander please	Jettorex	Feb 7 2009, 4:24am
Who really killed Phillip?	Dreamdeer	Feb 7 2009, 7:30am
the story i heard...	Jettorex	Feb 7 2009, 2:05pm
Yes, that did happen...	Dreamdeer	Feb 7 2009, 5:59pm
We're talking about Aragorn, right?	Curious	Feb 7 2009, 7:08pm
Significant indeed!	Dreamdeer	Feb 7 2009, 7:30pm
Alexander the Northern Star? How does it work?	simplyaven	Feb 7 2009, 8:31pm
Just trying to	Curious	Feb 8 2009, 12:10pm
We study Alexander, not Cyrus, because	squire	Feb 8 2009, 1:19pm
Is adding to that mythology	Curious	Feb 8 2009, 2:25pm
I don't know about the education you describe but...	simplyaven	Feb 8 2009, 4:15pm
In regards to Tolkien and Greece...	Morthoron	Feb 8 2009, 5:09pm
Most probably	simplyaven	Feb 8 2009, 9:47pm
Bucephalos could have been a big one + some legends	simplyaven	Feb 7 2009, 8:23pm
"The poison was water"	Dreamdeer	Feb 8 2009, 4:13am
I can't think of such connection	simplyaven	Feb 8 2009, 5:01am
I second Dreamdeer on this	simplyaven	Feb 8 2009, 12:45am
People are condemning Alexander? For being a ruthless conqueror?	squire	Feb 6 2009, 10:41pm
Alexander first or...?	Dreamdeer	Feb 7 2009, 2:44am
Gondor! Gondor! (You crossed the border.) //	N.E. Brigand	Feb 7 2009, 4:46am
Huh? oh...	squire	Feb 7 2009, 5:32am
applause Nicely done! /	Ataahua	Feb 7 2009, 8:19pm
I'm opting for the Annotated Grimm's	Curious	Feb 6 2009, 7:37pm
"All my father's writings have appendices."	Darkstone	Feb 2 2009, 11:00pm
Thank you!	Dreamdeer	Feb 3 2009, 1:59am
Kissin' cousins	squire	Feb 3 2009, 2:44am
a question for those discussing race/ism...	batik	Feb 3 2009, 3:02am
It depends on what you want	Dreamdeer	Feb 3 2009, 4:48pm
thanks for the input---	batik	Feb 4 2009, 2:41am
Personally I check multiple boxes.	Darkstone	Feb 3 2009, 5:59pm
My grand-daughter writes in "human"	sevilodorf	Feb 4 2009, 4:29am
Dunno if I could get away with that.	Darkstone	Feb 4 2009, 4:13pm
I don't read the Appendices, and yet	FarFromHome	Feb 3 2009, 9:33am
Excellent post//	Elros	Feb 3 2009, 12:29pm
"Well-intentioned racialism survives."	N.E. Brigand	Feb 5 2009, 6:38pm
I am a troublemaker, it seems.	Curious	Feb 5 2009, 7:38pm
Disturbing the comfortable?	N.E. Brigand	Feb 5 2009, 7:52pm
Racist, not Radical	Ghills	Feb 2 2009, 7:44am
But race and lineage were less important	Curious	Feb 2 2009, 2:05pm
Not necesarily. Hobbit culture = quiet context culture, which is unique in LOTR	Ghills	Feb 2 2009, 3:02pm
I did say	Curious	Feb 2 2009, 3:48pm
Hobbit Bloodlines	Dreamdeer	Feb 2 2009, 8:56pm
It's certainly important to the hobbits -- ridiculously so	Curious	Feb 2 2009, 9:24pm
Did he?	sador	Feb 2 2009, 10:07pm
Oh dear me!	Dreamdeer	Feb 2 2009, 10:27pm
Well, you had me going.	Curious	Feb 2 2009, 11:30pm
Let's just say...	FarFromHome	Feb 3 2009, 1:47pm
This is fantasy, folks.	Beren IV	Feb 2 2009, 4:23pm
Why not?	Curious	Feb 2 2009, 4:48pm
Racism	Beren IV	Feb 2 2009, 7:20pm
Race is a hot-button issue today.	Curious	Feb 2 2009, 8:56pm
Another thing we can agree on Curious	Elros	Feb 3 2009, 2:18am
We need to understand where Tolkien fits today	Ghills	Feb 3 2009, 3:14pm
I guess I better edit my biography	Elros	Feb 4 2009, 12:52pm
This is a whole different conversation, but	Curious	Feb 4 2009, 1:59pm
Ramping down the words	Dreamdeer	Feb 4 2009, 6:02pm
Environmental depredations	Beren IV	Feb 4 2009, 6:32pm
We're in good company	Dreamdeer	Feb 4 2009, 7:23pm
Tolkien wrote a poem about drugged elephants.	N.E. Brigand	Feb 4 2009, 8:11pm
But do they cause extinctions?	Beren IV	Feb 4 2009, 8:18pm
I guess I will just never understand	Elros	Feb 4 2009, 7:29pm
Distinctions	Dreamdeer	Feb 4 2009, 8:14pm
Tell me something i don't know	Elros	Feb 4 2009, 10:01pm
Is Aragorn better than everyone else because he's N�men�rean?	N.E. Brigand	Feb 4 2009, 10:57pm
They do indeed!	Elros	Feb 5 2009, 1:31am
MOS is N�men�rean.	Darkstone	Feb 5 2009, 2:34pm
Better does not	Curious	Feb 5 2009, 3:54pm
Tortoise versus hare.	Darkstone	Feb 5 2009, 5:38pm
But the tortoise is secretly a hare.	N.E. Brigand	Feb 5 2009, 5:55pm
Exactly!	Darkstone	Feb 5 2009, 6:15pm
Great post!	simplyaven	Feb 5 2009, 6:44pm
Beowulf's an interesting comparison.	Curious	Feb 5 2009, 6:45pm
Well	Darkstone	Feb 5 2009, 7:45pm
How so?	Curious	Feb 5 2009, 8:19pm
Well!!	Darkstone	Feb 5 2009, 8:42pm
Wonderfully subversive, I meant.	Curious	Feb 5 2009, 10:00pm
Farmer Giles of Ham	Dreamdeer	Feb 6 2009, 12:17am
Not so late.	N.E. Brigand	Feb 6 2009, 12:33am
My mistake.	Dreamdeer	Feb 6 2009, 12:39am
You illustrate my point...	Dreamdeer	Feb 5 2009, 11:54pm
Yep	Darkstone	Feb 6 2009, 2:46am
What does the First Age	Curious	Feb 4 2009, 11:08pm
Sorry to get you involved again Curious	Elros	Feb 5 2009, 1:14am
Oh, I don't think he minds.	N.E. Brigand	Feb 6 2009, 4:30am
Easy now...	Dreamdeer	Feb 5 2009, 4:55am
We aren't talking about you	Ghills	Feb 5 2009, 4:11pm
Not true	simplyaven	Feb 5 2009, 4:34pm
Respectfully beg to differ	Ghills	Feb 5 2009, 5:03pm
We'll have to agree to disagree	simplyaven	Feb 5 2009, 5:31pm
Since LotR is already denounced	Curious	Feb 5 2009, 5:03pm
Farther back than you know. Which is a point.	a.s.	Feb 5 2009, 5:44pm
1849	Darkstone	Feb 5 2009, 6:03pm
Fair enough. I was trying to	Curious	Feb 5 2009, 6:24pm
Yes, And Gone With The Wind was popular, too.	a.s.	Feb 5 2009, 6:33pm
And not just the dominant race.	Dreamdeer	Feb 6 2009, 12:14am
Wow	Beren IV	Feb 6 2009, 2:57am
I just saw this post of yours..	Jettorex	Feb 6 2009, 9:36pm
That was me...	FarFromHome	Feb 6 2009, 10:17pm
Thank you! //	Dreamdeer	Feb 5 2009, 11:56pm
Being denounced is no indicator of anything...	FarFromHome	Feb 5 2009, 5:56pm
Another unconscious prejudice?	N.E. Brigand	Feb 5 2009, 6:06pm
I hadn't seen a.s.'s post	FarFromHome	Feb 5 2009, 6:18pm
when one race alone benefits from "blood line", that is racism at work.	a.s.	Feb 5 2009, 6:19pm
Do they still lead?	Dreamdeer	Feb 6 2009, 12:00am
Did not mean to give offense	Ghills	Feb 5 2009, 3:53pm
Princess Finduilas of Dol Amroth	Darkstone	Feb 2 2009, 5:48pm
Do John Noble and Viggo Mortensen look alike?	N.E. Brigand	Feb 2 2009, 5:51pm
Eurocentricity	a.s.	Feb 4 2009, 10:32pm
It's good you're back!	sador	Feb 5 2009, 8:01am
possibly. Remember, I don't read the appendices much. :-)	a.s.	Feb 5 2009, 5:14pm
Umbar, not Harad, I think	Ghills	Feb 5 2009, 10:26pm
In the Akallabeth	sador	Feb 6 2009, 7:34am
I stand corrected	Ghills	Feb 6 2009, 3:57pm
Thank you...	Ghills	Feb 5 2009, 10:38pm

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