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a.s.
Valinor
Aug 27 2008, 10:55am
Views: 9163
Shortcut
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That is exactly what I have been saying
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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Perhaps you said it better: One thing that we know for sure is that Tolkien explicitly stated that Men are not "bound" by the Music. And yet they (we) still live within the actual history that the Music pre-ordained. So even though they (we) presumably have free will to determine their (our) own fates, they (we) do not have the power to change the ultimate fate of the world. Elves, on the other hand, are presented as being bound by the Music in some fundamental way that Men are not. Certainly they have at least the appearance of having free will. Certainly, they seem to be able to make decisions that affect their personal destinies. Yet it seems clear to me that nonetheless their ultimate fates are pre-determined by the Music in a way that the ultimate fates of Men are not.
a.s.
"an seileachan" Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.
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Subject
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User
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Time
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Do Elves have free will?
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visualweasel
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Aug 21 2008, 3:53pm
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Could you provide some ground rules?
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FarFromHome
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Aug 21 2008, 5:18pm
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Yes, good questions!
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visualweasel
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Aug 21 2008, 5:52pm
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I say "Tolkien and Free Will" is very popular this year
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a.s.
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Aug 22 2008, 11:16am
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Those sound interesting, but no.
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visualweasel
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Aug 22 2008, 2:55pm
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Mandos and Aule
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 21 2008, 9:53pm
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Yes, yes, I agree.
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visualweasel
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Aug 21 2008, 10:05pm
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Yes.
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Elizabeth
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Aug 22 2008, 4:16am
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Indeed.
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FarFromHome
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Aug 22 2008, 12:26pm
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why does "fairness" enter the argument?
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a.s.
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Aug 23 2008, 12:25pm
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The "fairness" relates to moral responsibility
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FarFromHome
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Aug 23 2008, 3:44pm
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Hell
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 23 2008, 4:36pm
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"allowed for the possibility of Hell", then
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a.s.
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Aug 23 2008, 6:19pm
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No. But I will have to get to this later.
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a.s.
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Aug 21 2008, 10:18pm
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Would anyone have thought to ask this question before 1977?
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 21 2008, 11:05pm
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Good point!
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visualweasel
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Aug 22 2008, 2:06pm
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Gimli
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 22 2008, 4:59pm
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free will implies the ability to sin
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a.s.
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Aug 23 2008, 12:45pm
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I have long argued ...
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Aug 21 2008, 11:54pm
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The Great Tolkienic Contradiction Conspiracy...
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Morthoron
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Aug 22 2008, 1:12am
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Fickle Finger of Fate
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 22 2008, 2:46am
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yes, and the answer is more complex, too
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a.s.
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Aug 22 2008, 10:57am
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I simply can't help myself ...
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visualweasel
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Aug 22 2008, 2:09pm
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There is no answer, of course
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Beren IV
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Aug 22 2008, 1:58am
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Be careful...
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Aelfwine
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Aug 22 2008, 2:42am
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Yes, this is one of the most central issues
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visualweasel
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Aug 22 2008, 2:51pm
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Peter Kreeft, in his book The Philosophy of Tolkien
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ElanorTX
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Aug 23 2008, 4:25am
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Machine stories
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Aelfwine
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Aug 23 2008, 2:02pm
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*if* there is free will for any created being, then
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a.s.
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Aug 23 2008, 12:36pm
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The Big But...
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Morthoron
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Aug 22 2008, 2:48am
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So what does 'fading' mean?
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Beren IV
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Aug 22 2008, 7:25am
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Fading and will?
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 22 2008, 4:46pm
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Limited free will
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Beren IV
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Aug 23 2008, 1:59am
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What you would have done
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Elizabeth
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Aug 23 2008, 4:33am
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Not so, actually:
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Aelfwine
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Aug 22 2008, 2:55am
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Have You Seen It?
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Aug 22 2008, 6:35am
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Was Flieger's Basic Thesis Different Than What She Previously Has Said?
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Aug 22 2008, 2:06pm
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I don't think so; however
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a.s.
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Aug 22 2008, 9:44pm
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Did you believe it before reading "The Silmarillion"?
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 22 2008, 9:56pm
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I never even thought about it prior to that
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a.s.
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Aug 22 2008, 10:15pm
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Why Does It Matter
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Aug 22 2008, 10:47pm
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"There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made."
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 22 2008, 11:43pm
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Apart from Ilúvitar's underlying plan...
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Beren IV
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Aug 23 2008, 2:14am
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Predictions are not requirements.
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Elizabeth
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Aug 23 2008, 5:03am
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Turin's Curse
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 23 2008, 4:15pm
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The works in question were in existence when LOTR was published
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Aug 23 2008, 2:59am
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By 1952, Tolkien knew that "The Silmarillion" wouldn't be published.
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 23 2008, 5:18am
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We're arguing over "canon"
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Beren IV
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Aug 23 2008, 7:06pm
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Alrighty then...
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Morthoron
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Aug 23 2008, 10:47pm
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Post-script...
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Morthoron
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Aug 23 2008, 11:05pm
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Beren
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 23 2008, 11:08pm
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No canon.
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 23 2008, 11:12pm
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Hmmm...
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Morthoron
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Aug 23 2008, 11:43pm
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I agree with your premise...
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 24 2008, 1:33am
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Aragorn said that!?!?!
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Samamir
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Aug 24 2008, 1:43am
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Cut for a reason?
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 24 2008, 1:47am
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To whom are you responding?
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 24 2008, 7:00am
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"Not canonical" does not mean apocryphal.
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Beren IV
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Aug 24 2008, 12:53am
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I disagree...
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Morthoron
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Aug 24 2008, 1:47am
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And even LotR was fluid.
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 24 2008, 1:28am
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FWIW, _I'm_ not arguing over canon
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Aelfwine
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Aug 24 2008, 2:04am
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I'm confused. What is "canon" and what is it good for?
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squire
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Aug 24 2008, 3:11am
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Not only that...
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FarFromHome
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Aug 24 2008, 7:32am
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Except that this question
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Beren IV
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Aug 24 2008, 8:24am
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Fade to Black (or Dark Elves)...
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Morthoron
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Aug 24 2008, 9:10am
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Ah.
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 24 2008, 4:22pm
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Fëanor's destiny
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Beren IV
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Aug 24 2008, 6:45pm
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Well...
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Morthoron
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Aug 24 2008, 7:31pm
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I have to agree in general
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Beren IV
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Aug 24 2008, 8:45pm
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I suppose you are right.
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squire
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Aug 24 2008, 1:55pm
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free will and other runimations
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a.s.
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Aug 23 2008, 11:36am
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Constrained by the Music
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Aelfwine
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Aug 23 2008, 1:46pm
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*if* free will, by definition,
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a.s.
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Aug 23 2008, 2:38pm
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Are you defining "free will"
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FarFromHome
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Aug 23 2008, 4:16pm
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yes, and no
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a.s.
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Aug 23 2008, 6:37pm
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Why does it matter? //
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 23 2008, 11:14pm
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To the Elves? Or to us?
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a.s.
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Aug 24 2008, 3:48am
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What rhymes with Hostetter?
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 24 2008, 9:54pm
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Hmmm...Hostetter?
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Morthoron
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Aug 24 2008, 11:19pm
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LOL!
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Aelfwine
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Aug 24 2008, 11:42pm
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Ode dear!
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Morthoron
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Aug 25 2008, 4:15am
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LOL!!!
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Aelfwine
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Aug 25 2008, 4:20am
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Brilliant!! //
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a.s.
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Aug 25 2008, 11:15am
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Now that impressed me! //
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 25 2008, 1:38pm
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A triumphal note in an otherwise endless (but still fun) debate!
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visualweasel
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Aug 25 2008, 3:03pm
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Come on, now you're just being silly,
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Beren IV
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Aug 25 2008, 4:45pm
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How did I end up in the Reading Room?
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Magpie
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Aug 26 2008, 1:20am
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The Dark Elf bows...
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Morthoron
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Aug 26 2008, 1:57am
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*applauds*
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Peredhil lover
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Aug 26 2008, 5:50am
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*applause* Well done! //
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dernwyn
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Aug 26 2008, 2:23am
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picks up the gauntlet
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a.s.
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Aug 25 2008, 12:47am
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LOL! (nt)
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Aelfwine
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Aug 25 2008, 1:32am
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ack!!! Only I would mis-spell a word in a post about linguistics! Help, admins
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a.s.
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Aug 25 2008, 1:42am
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Ah, magic!
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dernwyn
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Aug 26 2008, 2:21am
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no, NEB has not posted his winning entry
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a.s.
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Aug 26 2008, 10:59am
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It's not
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 27 2008, 9:30pm
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oh stop! It won because it was funny, it was topical
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a.s.
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Aug 27 2008, 10:09pm
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Do Men?
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Darkstone
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Aug 26 2008, 2:02pm
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Wyrd and Fate
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visualweasel
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Aug 26 2008, 2:19pm
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But...
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Darkstone
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Aug 26 2008, 3:26pm
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No buts ...
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visualweasel
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Aug 26 2008, 3:29pm
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Yes but
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a.s.
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Aug 26 2008, 10:21pm
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It would be, but ...
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visualweasel
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Aug 26 2008, 10:24pm
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I did not say "in Tolkien's legendarium"
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a.s.
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Aug 26 2008, 10:42pm
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Well, if you're going to bring the Primary World into this ... :)
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visualweasel
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Aug 27 2008, 12:10am
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I officially wash my hands of this discussion.
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Beren IV
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Aug 27 2008, 12:48am
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I wouldn't say that.
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 27 2008, 3:21am
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Good point!
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visualweasel
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Aug 27 2008, 1:45pm
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On the contrary!
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 27 2008, 4:16pm
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I am going to try this one more time
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a.s.
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Aug 27 2008, 11:36am
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Getting frustrated? I'm sorry about that ...
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visualweasel
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Aug 27 2008, 2:00pm
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This is a sticking point for me...
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FarFromHome
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Aug 27 2008, 2:07pm
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Regarding Catholic Teaching...
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 27 2008, 4:23pm
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Maybe but...
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FarFromHome
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Aug 27 2008, 5:01pm
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I'm not trying to, I'm just trying to define "free will"
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a.s.
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Aug 27 2008, 6:30pm
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That was what I thought was meant by...
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a.s.
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Aug 27 2008, 5:57pm
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The way in which the Elves arguably do not have free will, then,
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Beren IV
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Aug 27 2008, 6:22pm
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if Elves do not, in fact, exist after Arda ceases to exist then, yes, they do not have free will by my definition of free will.
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a.s.
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Aug 27 2008, 6:40pm
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Ah, but what about the Outer Darkness?
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 27 2008, 7:44pm
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Yes, but there is always a Tolkienic contradiction...
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Morthoron
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Aug 27 2008, 9:35pm
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My understanding was
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Beren IV
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Aug 28 2008, 2:41am
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That's quite helpful.
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 27 2008, 6:48pm
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I don't think that's an accurate definition of Free Will from the Church's perspective.
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Aelfwine
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Aug 27 2008, 9:37pm
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OK, I can accept that
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a.s.
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Aug 27 2008, 9:50pm
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But, what we really need to decide once and for all...
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Morthoron
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Aug 27 2008, 10:27pm
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And are they *free* to use them? ;) //
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visualweasel
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Aug 27 2008, 10:28pm
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Or better, do they have the free will to use them?
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Morthoron
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Aug 27 2008, 10:29pm
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Men, Elves and the Music
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Aug 26 2008, 11:03pm
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That is exactly what I have been saying
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a.s.
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Aug 27 2008, 10:55am
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Yes buts. Elves have free will.
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Darkstone
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Aug 27 2008, 6:02pm
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Although Galadriel's fall
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Beren IV
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Aug 27 2008, 6:17pm
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The most sinful Elves
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Darkstone
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Aug 27 2008, 6:33pm
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So what did the three 'C's look like?
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Beren IV
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Aug 27 2008, 6:42pm
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Probably still pretty fair.
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Darkstone
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Aug 27 2008, 6:58pm
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Yes and No
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 27 2008, 8:15pm
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What a lovely image
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visualweasel
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Aug 27 2008, 9:15pm
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Well said, and I agree. //
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visualweasel
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Aug 27 2008, 6:24pm
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if they cannot go to Hell, they do not have free will
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a.s.
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Aug 27 2008, 6:54pm
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So do The Elect have free will?
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Darkstone
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Aug 27 2008, 7:33pm
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I don't know. I think so, but
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a.s.
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Aug 27 2008, 11:23pm
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Please don't be so hard on yourself, "a.s."!
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Aelfwine
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Aug 28 2008, 12:00am
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You are a nice guy, aelf :-)
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a.s.
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Aug 28 2008, 12:18am
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I disagree fundamentally, but we can still be friends :)
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visualweasel
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Aug 27 2008, 9:27pm
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it would depend upon how you define free will
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a.s.
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Aug 27 2008, 10:42pm
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Angels in the apocrypha
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Beren IV
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Aug 28 2008, 2:45am
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The Dark Elf recalls his Catholic education...
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Morthoron
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Aug 28 2008, 3:51am
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Er...
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Aelfwine
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Aug 28 2008, 12:37pm
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To elucidate...
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Morthoron
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Aug 28 2008, 4:09pm
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You were quite clear.
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Aelfwine
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Aug 28 2008, 6:59pm
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Let's agree to disagree then...
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Morthoron
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Aug 28 2008, 9:54pm
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Aragorn did have free will.
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 26 2008, 3:26pm
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And THAT is the point I've been trying to make!
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Beren IV
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Aug 26 2008, 7:38pm
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Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more...
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Morthoron
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Aug 26 2008, 10:06pm
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It depends on your perspective.
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Curious
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Mar 22 2009, 5:17pm
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If I understand you, then I disagree :)
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visualweasel
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Mar 23 2009, 2:00pm
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I misspoke.
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Curious
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Mar 23 2009, 3:15pm
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Agreed! :) //
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visualweasel
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Mar 23 2009, 3:18pm
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