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Beren IV
Gondor
Aug 27 2008, 12:48am
Views: 9131
Shortcut
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I officially wash my hands of this discussion.
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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We are now arguing over the definitions of words and their connotations. What point the discussion originally had is no longer relevant.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Subject
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User
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Time
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Do Elves have free will?
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visualweasel
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Aug 21 2008, 3:53pm
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Could you provide some ground rules?
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FarFromHome
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Aug 21 2008, 5:18pm
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Yes, good questions!
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visualweasel
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Aug 21 2008, 5:52pm
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I say "Tolkien and Free Will" is very popular this year
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a.s.
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Aug 22 2008, 11:16am
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Those sound interesting, but no.
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visualweasel
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Aug 22 2008, 2:55pm
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Mandos and Aule
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 21 2008, 9:53pm
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Yes, yes, I agree.
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visualweasel
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Aug 21 2008, 10:05pm
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Yes.
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Elizabeth
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Aug 22 2008, 4:16am
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Indeed.
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FarFromHome
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Aug 22 2008, 12:26pm
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why does "fairness" enter the argument?
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a.s.
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Aug 23 2008, 12:25pm
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The "fairness" relates to moral responsibility
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FarFromHome
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Aug 23 2008, 3:44pm
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Hell
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 23 2008, 4:36pm
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"allowed for the possibility of Hell", then
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a.s.
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Aug 23 2008, 6:19pm
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No. But I will have to get to this later.
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a.s.
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Aug 21 2008, 10:18pm
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Would anyone have thought to ask this question before 1977?
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 21 2008, 11:05pm
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Good point!
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visualweasel
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Aug 22 2008, 2:06pm
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Gimli
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 22 2008, 4:59pm
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free will implies the ability to sin
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a.s.
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Aug 23 2008, 12:45pm
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I have long argued ...
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Aug 21 2008, 11:54pm
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The Great Tolkienic Contradiction Conspiracy...
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Morthoron
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Aug 22 2008, 1:12am
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Fickle Finger of Fate
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 22 2008, 2:46am
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yes, and the answer is more complex, too
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a.s.
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Aug 22 2008, 10:57am
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I simply can't help myself ...
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visualweasel
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Aug 22 2008, 2:09pm
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There is no answer, of course
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Beren IV
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Aug 22 2008, 1:58am
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Be careful...
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Aelfwine
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Aug 22 2008, 2:42am
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Yes, this is one of the most central issues
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visualweasel
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Aug 22 2008, 2:51pm
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Peter Kreeft, in his book The Philosophy of Tolkien
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ElanorTX
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Aug 23 2008, 4:25am
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Machine stories
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Aelfwine
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Aug 23 2008, 2:02pm
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*if* there is free will for any created being, then
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a.s.
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Aug 23 2008, 12:36pm
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The Big But...
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Morthoron
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Aug 22 2008, 2:48am
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So what does 'fading' mean?
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Beren IV
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Aug 22 2008, 7:25am
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Fading and will?
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 22 2008, 4:46pm
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Limited free will
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Beren IV
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Aug 23 2008, 1:59am
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What you would have done
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Elizabeth
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Aug 23 2008, 4:33am
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Not so, actually:
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Aelfwine
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Aug 22 2008, 2:55am
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Have You Seen It?
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Aug 22 2008, 6:35am
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Was Flieger's Basic Thesis Different Than What She Previously Has Said?
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Aug 22 2008, 2:06pm
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I don't think so; however
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a.s.
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Aug 22 2008, 9:44pm
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Did you believe it before reading "The Silmarillion"?
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 22 2008, 9:56pm
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I never even thought about it prior to that
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a.s.
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Aug 22 2008, 10:15pm
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Why Does It Matter
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Aug 22 2008, 10:47pm
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"There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made."
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 22 2008, 11:43pm
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Apart from Ilúvitar's underlying plan...
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Beren IV
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Aug 23 2008, 2:14am
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Predictions are not requirements.
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Elizabeth
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Aug 23 2008, 5:03am
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Turin's Curse
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 23 2008, 4:15pm
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The works in question were in existence when LOTR was published
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Aug 23 2008, 2:59am
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By 1952, Tolkien knew that "The Silmarillion" wouldn't be published.
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 23 2008, 5:18am
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We're arguing over "canon"
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Beren IV
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Aug 23 2008, 7:06pm
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Alrighty then...
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Morthoron
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Aug 23 2008, 10:47pm
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Post-script...
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Morthoron
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Aug 23 2008, 11:05pm
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Beren
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 23 2008, 11:08pm
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No canon.
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 23 2008, 11:12pm
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Hmmm...
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Morthoron
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Aug 23 2008, 11:43pm
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I agree with your premise...
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 24 2008, 1:33am
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Aragorn said that!?!?!
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Samamir
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Aug 24 2008, 1:43am
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Cut for a reason?
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 24 2008, 1:47am
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To whom are you responding?
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 24 2008, 7:00am
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"Not canonical" does not mean apocryphal.
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Beren IV
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Aug 24 2008, 12:53am
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I disagree...
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Morthoron
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Aug 24 2008, 1:47am
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And even LotR was fluid.
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 24 2008, 1:28am
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FWIW, _I'm_ not arguing over canon
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Aelfwine
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Aug 24 2008, 2:04am
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I'm confused. What is "canon" and what is it good for?
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squire
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Aug 24 2008, 3:11am
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Not only that...
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FarFromHome
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Aug 24 2008, 7:32am
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Except that this question
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Beren IV
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Aug 24 2008, 8:24am
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Fade to Black (or Dark Elves)...
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Morthoron
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Aug 24 2008, 9:10am
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Ah.
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 24 2008, 4:22pm
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Fëanor's destiny
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Beren IV
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Aug 24 2008, 6:45pm
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Well...
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Morthoron
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Aug 24 2008, 7:31pm
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I have to agree in general
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Beren IV
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Aug 24 2008, 8:45pm
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I suppose you are right.
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squire
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Aug 24 2008, 1:55pm
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free will and other runimations
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a.s.
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Aug 23 2008, 11:36am
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Constrained by the Music
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Aelfwine
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Aug 23 2008, 1:46pm
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*if* free will, by definition,
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a.s.
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Aug 23 2008, 2:38pm
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Are you defining "free will"
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FarFromHome
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Aug 23 2008, 4:16pm
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yes, and no
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a.s.
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Aug 23 2008, 6:37pm
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Why does it matter? //
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 23 2008, 11:14pm
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To the Elves? Or to us?
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a.s.
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Aug 24 2008, 3:48am
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What rhymes with Hostetter?
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 24 2008, 9:54pm
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Hmmm...Hostetter?
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Morthoron
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Aug 24 2008, 11:19pm
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LOL!
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Aelfwine
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Aug 24 2008, 11:42pm
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Ode dear!
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Morthoron
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Aug 25 2008, 4:15am
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LOL!!!
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Aelfwine
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Aug 25 2008, 4:20am
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Brilliant!! //
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a.s.
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Aug 25 2008, 11:15am
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Now that impressed me! //
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 25 2008, 1:38pm
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A triumphal note in an otherwise endless (but still fun) debate!
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visualweasel
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Aug 25 2008, 3:03pm
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Come on, now you're just being silly,
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Beren IV
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Aug 25 2008, 4:45pm
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How did I end up in the Reading Room?
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Magpie
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Aug 26 2008, 1:20am
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The Dark Elf bows...
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Morthoron
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Aug 26 2008, 1:57am
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*applauds*
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Peredhil lover
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Aug 26 2008, 5:50am
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*applause* Well done! //
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dernwyn
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Aug 26 2008, 2:23am
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picks up the gauntlet
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a.s.
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Aug 25 2008, 12:47am
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LOL! (nt)
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Aelfwine
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Aug 25 2008, 1:32am
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ack!!! Only I would mis-spell a word in a post about linguistics! Help, admins
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a.s.
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Aug 25 2008, 1:42am
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Ah, magic!
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dernwyn
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Aug 26 2008, 2:21am
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no, NEB has not posted his winning entry
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a.s.
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Aug 26 2008, 10:59am
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It's not
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 27 2008, 9:30pm
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oh stop! It won because it was funny, it was topical
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a.s.
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Aug 27 2008, 10:09pm
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Do Men?
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Darkstone
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Aug 26 2008, 2:02pm
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Wyrd and Fate
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visualweasel
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Aug 26 2008, 2:19pm
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But...
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Darkstone
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Aug 26 2008, 3:26pm
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No buts ...
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visualweasel
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Aug 26 2008, 3:29pm
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Yes but
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a.s.
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Aug 26 2008, 10:21pm
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It would be, but ...
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visualweasel
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Aug 26 2008, 10:24pm
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I did not say "in Tolkien's legendarium"
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a.s.
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Aug 26 2008, 10:42pm
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Well, if you're going to bring the Primary World into this ... :)
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visualweasel
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Aug 27 2008, 12:10am
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I officially wash my hands of this discussion.
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Beren IV
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Aug 27 2008, 12:48am
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I wouldn't say that.
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 27 2008, 3:21am
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Good point!
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visualweasel
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Aug 27 2008, 1:45pm
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On the contrary!
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 27 2008, 4:16pm
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I am going to try this one more time
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a.s.
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Aug 27 2008, 11:36am
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Getting frustrated? I'm sorry about that ...
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visualweasel
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Aug 27 2008, 2:00pm
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This is a sticking point for me...
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FarFromHome
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Aug 27 2008, 2:07pm
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Regarding Catholic Teaching...
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 27 2008, 4:23pm
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Maybe but...
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FarFromHome
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Aug 27 2008, 5:01pm
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I'm not trying to, I'm just trying to define "free will"
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a.s.
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Aug 27 2008, 6:30pm
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That was what I thought was meant by...
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a.s.
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Aug 27 2008, 5:57pm
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The way in which the Elves arguably do not have free will, then,
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Beren IV
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Aug 27 2008, 6:22pm
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if Elves do not, in fact, exist after Arda ceases to exist then, yes, they do not have free will by my definition of free will.
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a.s.
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Aug 27 2008, 6:40pm
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Ah, but what about the Outer Darkness?
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 27 2008, 7:44pm
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Yes, but there is always a Tolkienic contradiction...
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Morthoron
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Aug 27 2008, 9:35pm
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My understanding was
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Beren IV
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Aug 28 2008, 2:41am
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That's quite helpful.
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N.E. Brigand
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Aug 27 2008, 6:48pm
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I don't think that's an accurate definition of Free Will from the Church's perspective.
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Aelfwine
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Aug 27 2008, 9:37pm
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OK, I can accept that
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a.s.
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Aug 27 2008, 9:50pm
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But, what we really need to decide once and for all...
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Morthoron
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Aug 27 2008, 10:27pm
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And are they *free* to use them? ;) //
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visualweasel
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Aug 27 2008, 10:28pm
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Or better, do they have the free will to use them?
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Morthoron
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Aug 27 2008, 10:29pm
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Men, Elves and the Music
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Aug 26 2008, 11:03pm
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That is exactly what I have been saying
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a.s.
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Aug 27 2008, 10:55am
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Yes buts. Elves have free will.
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Darkstone
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Aug 27 2008, 6:02pm
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Although Galadriel's fall
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Beren IV
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Aug 27 2008, 6:17pm
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The most sinful Elves
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Darkstone
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Aug 27 2008, 6:33pm
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So what did the three 'C's look like?
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Beren IV
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Aug 27 2008, 6:42pm
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Probably still pretty fair.
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Darkstone
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Aug 27 2008, 6:58pm
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Yes and No
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 27 2008, 8:15pm
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What a lovely image
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visualweasel
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Aug 27 2008, 9:15pm
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Well said, and I agree. //
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visualweasel
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Aug 27 2008, 6:24pm
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if they cannot go to Hell, they do not have free will
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a.s.
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Aug 27 2008, 6:54pm
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So do The Elect have free will?
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Darkstone
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Aug 27 2008, 7:33pm
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I don't know. I think so, but
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a.s.
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Aug 27 2008, 11:23pm
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Please don't be so hard on yourself, "a.s."!
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Aelfwine
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Aug 28 2008, 12:00am
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You are a nice guy, aelf :-)
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a.s.
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Aug 28 2008, 12:18am
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I disagree fundamentally, but we can still be friends :)
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visualweasel
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Aug 27 2008, 9:27pm
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it would depend upon how you define free will
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a.s.
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Aug 27 2008, 10:42pm
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Angels in the apocrypha
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Beren IV
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Aug 28 2008, 2:45am
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The Dark Elf recalls his Catholic education...
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Morthoron
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Aug 28 2008, 3:51am
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Er...
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Aelfwine
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Aug 28 2008, 12:37pm
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To elucidate...
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Morthoron
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Aug 28 2008, 4:09pm
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You were quite clear.
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Aelfwine
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Aug 28 2008, 6:59pm
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Let's agree to disagree then...
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Morthoron
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Aug 28 2008, 9:54pm
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Aragorn did have free will.
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Dreamdeer
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Aug 26 2008, 3:26pm
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And THAT is the point I've been trying to make!
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Beren IV
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Aug 26 2008, 7:38pm
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Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more...
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Morthoron
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Aug 26 2008, 10:06pm
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It depends on your perspective.
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Curious
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Mar 22 2009, 5:17pm
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If I understand you, then I disagree :)
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visualweasel
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Mar 23 2009, 2:00pm
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I misspoke.
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Curious
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Mar 23 2009, 3:15pm
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Agreed! :) //
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visualweasel
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Mar 23 2009, 3:18pm
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