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Captain Salt
Tol Eressea
Dec 29 2013, 8:47pm
Views: 816
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1. The backstory is a bit of mess; we're two movies in and we don't know how Gandalf got the map and key from Thrain. The first film made it seem like the dwarves had assembled due to "signs" such as birds flying around, then sought out Gandalf's aide ("you asked me to find the 14th member of this company", Saruman's remark "if they had come to me",) while this film, while truer to the source material, shows otherwise. Also, as hutch pointed out, the Thorin-hunting story lacks consistency...were Azog/the Necromancer hunting Thorin so prevent him from "usurping" the dragon, and if so, why were one or the other doing so when Thorin was an aimless vagabond? If the Necromancer wants Thorin dead (it is he, not Azog who has plans to Erebor), why does he give up on the dwarves only to have Azog assign Bolg to to continue the hunt of his own accord? For that matter, how do Azog and his orcs transport to Dol Guldur seemingly instantaneously, while Bolg's company manages to make their way to the Woodland Realm by the following night? Also, there's no hint that Azog serves the Necromancer in Film 1 (save for the Nazgul theme at AUJ's ending), yet here it's revealed in the least dramatic, matter-of-fact manner possible with no build-up or preamble, (say, such as Gandalf putting the clues together himself, speaking of which):
2. The Dol Guldur story is also a mess; how does one bury wraiths when by definition they have no bodies to bury? How does Gandalf leap to conclusion that Azog serves the Necromancer (because Beorn mentions an alliance between the Moria Orcs and the Necromancer? There are a lot of Moria orcs, and Azog is a "Gundabad Orc" anyway). If Sauron has not yet reached his full strength and is trying to remain concealed, why would he seemingly lure Gandalf/the Wise to Dol Guldur (I believe that was the implication of the "it's most certainly a trap" exchange); and why would Gandalf enter Dol Guldur alone if he even suspected that ME's darkest remaining power had returned (remember this is the same character who would not enter Moria unless he "had no other choice")? What happened to the Nazgul after they were set up by the Morgul blade subplot? And would orcs really advertise the use of the fan-ficy "morgul arrows" and tag elf territory with Sauron grafiti if the Necromancer was trying to remain incognito? Also, why do the Orcs (other than Narzug), and Sauron only speak the Black Speech when they spoke largely Westron in LotR, and how does Thorin understand this language when Azog addresses him in AUJ (yet he has to be told by Gandy that the lettering in the prologue is Black Speech)?
3. How did the orcs wipe out a race of people who could transform into giant bears, as Beorn seems like he could fit Azog's entire head in his mouth? For that matter, why is Azog afraid of the last skin-changer when he's killed the rest, and why doesn't Beorn just slay Azog when he's right outside his house? BTW, how does Beorn still have a manacle on his arm when it would come off as soon as he turned into a bear?
4. Thorin and the other dwarves don't react when Kili is injured, yet totally overact most out of character when they fail to find the hidden door (no one mentions that they simply have to go back to Lake-town, and have the people dote on them until next year)? If Thorin and the others thought that map was false (as mentioned in Thorin's audition dialogue), this needed to be explained in the film:
"We were here...we were here when the last light of Durin's day fell, and there was no keyhole, no door...no way into the mountain. The map is a fake, a forgery, it must be...or else the hidden entrance was never built. But whatever the cause...the legacy of my people has lead to nothing". (Thorin throws away key).
5. Lake-town is a heavily populated/guarded police state, yet there's nobody around to notice a major brawl between orcs and elves in the middle of the night (after a thump in the armory brought a dozen armed guards to the scene at once)? It's also very convenient that the Master/Braga allow Bard to speak his piece before a large assembly, then decide to arrest him for no apparent reason (or none that they bother to give), at JUST the right moment for a climactic chase and to get Bard out of the way so the elves can handle the orcs themselves...and this is after they set up the same outcome with Bard being arrested for illegally trying to use the windlance, which IMO seems like the result of some sloppy last-minute re-shoots.
6. What is going on the the Arkenstone anyway? Smaug claims that this is what corrupted Thror's mind... yet Thorin begins to change before he reaches Erebor/the Arkenstone, and we're told by Old Bilbo and others that Thror's madness was brought on simply due to his lust for wealth...notice Thrain also went mad after exile from Erebor, after the Arkenstone had been left in Smaug's hoard. For that matter, why is the Ring already corrupting Bilbo when Hobbits are known to be resilient to its power, and Bilbo will hold the Ring with no obvious psychological effect for 60 years after?
7. No consistency with Film 1's ending - IE Thorin's magically healing face, and the orcs already being on the company's trail despite the eagles seemingly having flown them hundreds of miles thought the night and into the day. Notice everyone now calls Thorin "Oakenshield", which reminds me of a cheesy 80's action movie where our hero is always referred to by his last name.  This also includes Smaug, who is exceptionally well-informed for someone who's been snoozing in Erebor for 60 years, but let's just chalk it up by his being telepathic to a degree as seems to be the case when he senses the Ring.
8. Two films in and aside from Thorin, Balin, and now Kili, none of the dwarves have emerged as distinct individuals with unique backstories or functions within the company. Yes, Oin's being the apothecary leads to his staying with Kili, and Nori a thief to his tapping for the hidden door...but these facts are not really established (aside from the supplementary materials) and also don't really add a whole lot more to the characters/movies; Dori and Ori, in whom we were supposed to be invested in the last movie, have pretty much ended up as extras. This isn't an "inconsistency", per say as a missed opportunity, IMO.
Those are just some of the issues I have with the films...I'm sure that they can all be explained away through various explanations of varying degrees of believability, except a good movie(s) shouldn't need to rely on the defenses of fans to make sense (such as LotR, which didn't seem to have nearly as many gaffs in its narrative construction). 
"Not tall, but broad and grim...wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come, we deem."
(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Dec 29 2013, 8:59pm)
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Subject
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User
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Time
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AUJ EE, DOS TE continuity/script supervisor
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hutch
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Dec 29 2013, 7:13pm
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...
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Faleel
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Dec 29 2013, 7:18pm
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There's gaffes in every film
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hutch
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Dec 29 2013, 7:21pm
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There were similar problems in LotR.
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Elizabeth
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Dec 29 2013, 7:23pm
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I suppose
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hutch
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Dec 29 2013, 7:25pm
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We saw the same in LotR.
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arithmancer
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Dec 29 2013, 7:29pm
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But
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Faleel
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Dec 29 2013, 7:30pm
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Old Bilbo's memory is definitely failing...
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tsmith675
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Dec 29 2013, 7:33pm
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in just a few minutes?
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hutch
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Dec 29 2013, 7:36pm
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Failing?
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hutch
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Dec 29 2013, 7:39pm
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Well he did "lose" the ring too...
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tsmith675
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Dec 29 2013, 7:45pm
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nobody is LOOKING for continuity errors
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hutch
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Dec 29 2013, 11:07pm
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Let's all take a deep breath
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Altaira
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Dec 29 2013, 11:20pm
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Wow back up a second and calm down...
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tsmith675
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Dec 29 2013, 11:29pm
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I thought you were implying that
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hutch
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Dec 29 2013, 11:33pm
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Opinions
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morgul lord
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Dec 29 2013, 11:31pm
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I couldn't technically argue against that.
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hutch
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Dec 29 2013, 11:41pm
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I think it's a fault of time compression...
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Silverlode
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Dec 29 2013, 10:54pm
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Didn't say the jewels were a continuity error
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hutch
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Dec 29 2013, 7:39pm
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I don't know the difference!
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arithmancer
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Dec 29 2013, 7:52pm
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About Gandalf...
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tsmith675
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Dec 29 2013, 7:30pm
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Could've fooled me
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hutch
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Dec 29 2013, 7:41pm
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Well.
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Faleel
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Dec 29 2013, 7:47pm
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Not the impression I got (after DoS)
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tsmith675
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Dec 29 2013, 7:48pm
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I think everyone of your contentions can be explained within reason...
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ecthelionsbeard
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Dec 29 2013, 7:49pm
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That's stretching it
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hutch
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Dec 29 2013, 11:09pm
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Agreed, there's little to no attempt
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Captain Salt
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Dec 29 2013, 8:02pm
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Which examples are you thinking of?
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DavidDevant
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Dec 29 2013, 8:12pm
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Well:
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Captain Salt
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Dec 29 2013, 8:47pm
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Well I'm certainly not going to attempt them in one go!
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DavidDevant
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Dec 29 2013, 9:04pm
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This is my post title. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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bungobaggins
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Dec 29 2013, 9:11pm
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Well perhaps I
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DavidDevant
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Dec 29 2013, 9:20pm
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WOW!!!
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ecthelionsbeard
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Dec 30 2013, 1:12am
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I feel you
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macfalk
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Dec 30 2013, 1:14am
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Ouch
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DavidDevant
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Dec 30 2013, 1:33am
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So sorry!
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Altaira
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Dec 30 2013, 2:08am
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Yes, I following your meaning,
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Captain Salt
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Dec 29 2013, 9:24pm
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I still think Thrain
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patrickk
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Dec 29 2013, 9:44pm
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Well ok
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DavidDevant
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Dec 29 2013, 9:45pm
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Confusion in some cases
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Captain Salt
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Dec 29 2013, 10:01pm
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Hmmm I think I don't see that
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DavidDevant
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Dec 29 2013, 10:24pm
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In the case of the map and key
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Captain Salt
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Dec 29 2013, 10:52pm
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Excuse for dipping to the last point
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DavidDevant
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Dec 29 2013, 11:25pm
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I haven't seen LOTR in a long while
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hutch
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Dec 29 2013, 11:31pm
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Had this been the case with LotR
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Captain Salt
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Dec 29 2013, 11:56pm
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Perhaps
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Faleel
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Dec 29 2013, 11:59pm
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That much seems evident concerning Oin/Gloin, however
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Captain Salt
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Dec 30 2013, 12:04am
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Perhaps
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Faleel
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Dec 30 2013, 12:09am
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But we have exactly the same info about the key
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DavidDevant
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Dec 30 2013, 12:10am
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Because
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Captain Salt
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Dec 30 2013, 12:29am
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Forgive me for sticking to a single point
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DavidDevant
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Dec 30 2013, 12:49am
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That's exactly my point
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Captain Salt
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Dec 30 2013, 1:10am
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Hmmm interesting point of view.
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Owain
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Dec 30 2013, 1:15am
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Again, "what" is not in question - it's more the "how and why" of PJ's backstory. //
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Captain Salt
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Dec 30 2013, 1:27am
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They are understanding that as well.//
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Owain
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Dec 30 2013, 1:29am
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Well in that case perhaps they can set it to a couple pages of screenplay for PJ to include in Film 3. :P //
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Captain Salt
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Dec 30 2013, 1:32am
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I'll get on that.
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Owain
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Dec 30 2013, 1:36am
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Well I know it's only one point
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DavidDevant
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Dec 30 2013, 1:31am
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This is definitely fascinating!
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Altaira
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Dec 30 2013, 2:15am
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Now that I've asked I wonder has anyone asked before (or has any answers) ?
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DavidDevant
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Dec 30 2013, 1:57am
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My opinion on your book questions
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arithmancer
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Dec 30 2013, 2:01am
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My mistake
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DavidDevant
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Dec 30 2013, 2:15am
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Time to plan...
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arithmancer
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Dec 30 2013, 2:50am
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Ha - worry not- I got it
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DavidDevant
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Dec 30 2013, 2:58am
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This is a wonderful list.
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bungobaggins
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Dec 29 2013, 9:12pm
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I'd still like to know
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hutch
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Dec 29 2013, 11:18pm
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How Gandalf got the key
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macfalk
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Dec 30 2013, 12:58am
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I am not so sure
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patrickk
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Dec 29 2013, 9:03pm
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lots of these are intentional (re: AUJ EE commentary)
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morgul lord
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Dec 29 2013, 8:32pm
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What I'm saying is
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hutch
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Dec 29 2013, 11:12pm
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What PJ's saying is
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morgul lord
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Dec 29 2013, 11:14pm
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Fair enough
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hutch
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Dec 29 2013, 11:22pm
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Not so much continuity but shuffling
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Michelle Johnston
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Dec 29 2013, 10:54pm
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That's a good point.
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hutch
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Dec 29 2013, 11:29pm
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Hutch...
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patrickk
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Dec 30 2013, 4:07am
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UGH
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ChowdaHead
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Dec 30 2013, 8:30am
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the key
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ChowdaHead
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Dec 30 2013, 8:33am
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