The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: TV Discussion: The Rings of Power:
Founding Arnor and Gondor



Junesong
Lorien


Jun 20, 8:05pm


Views: 911
Founding Arnor and Gondor

Just a thought here:

To accommodate the "condensed" timeline, I'm guessing the show will play around a little bit with WHEN the realms of Arnor and Gondor are built.

Specifically, I'm thinking of places like Amon Sul, Minas Tirith, Minas Ithil, Osgiliath, the Argonath and even Orthanc etc. Tolkien has always been pretty vague about exactly WHEN these things were founded/built/established and especially vague on HOW it happened.

I'm just assuming that the ROP will have these things founded/built/established DURING the reign of Numenor rather than after its fall (like in the text)

Not only because this is a lot of big stuff to fit into the last season (assuming the last season takes place after the fall of Numenor - although I wouldn't be surprised if the fall of Numenor happens much closer in action to the Last Alliance)

Do we care?

When we talk about the timeline changes, I think these are important changes to consider. Not just which king is shown when, or which Durin is which, but the establishing of big famous locations will likely happen sooner and possibly even by different people than we know from the book.

"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."


Eldy
Grey Havens


Jun 21, 2:33am


Views: 853
I'm down

Tolkien wasn't really that vague about most of the particular structures you mentioned,[1] but it wouldn't bother me if at least some of them are constructed earlier in ROP's timeline than the book's. The only one that would rankle for me is the Argonath, which were built in the Third Age, and depicted individuals who had by then long since passed into legend, but in ROP will be major characters.[2] The rest are fair game in my view. McPayne presumably want Middle-earth to be recognizable to viewers. While I think hewing too closely to what we know from the late Third Age would be bad form for a distant prequel, even setting aside fidelity to the text, this is not an instance of timeline changing that concerns me much. I will grumble if they use the name Arnor—it has no business called "kingly land" in Sindarin before it's the seat of a King—but the name Gondor is "canonically" a translation of a pre-Númenórean name, so it should be in use during ROP if it's already been settled (which I have to assume it has).


In Reply To
Not only because this is a lot of big stuff to fit into the last season (assuming the last season takes place after the fall of Numenor - although I wouldn't be surprised if the fall of Numenor happens much closer in action to the Last Alliance)


There's "only" 110 years between the Downfall and the start of the war in the book timeline, but I likewise assume that gap will be greatly reduced in the show.

---

[1] Amon Sûl is the only one I'd consider vague, since I think Orthanc is implied to have been built at the same time as the other palantír-hosting towers of Gondor. It would stand to reason that Amon Sûl also came from that era—we do know it was in existence during Elendil's lifetime—but I can't think of anything offhand to rule out the possibility of it being older.

[2] Isildur will be, anyway. The other statue in the book was of Anárion, but I'm not sure if he's going to feature in the show. Peter Jackson left him out entirely and changed the other statue to be of Elendil.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jun 21, 1:18pm


Views: 793
Anarion's replacement

Instead of having a brother, Anarion, Isildur will apparently have a sister, Carine. Who, at least if Fellowship of the Fans can be believed, will play a very different role.


Quote
they detailed a bit of Isildur’s relationship with his sister claiming, “Isildur’s sister (Carine) doesn’t want Isildur joining the army. There is said to be one emotional scene where she chases Isildur through the Numenorean crowd yelling ‘Isil, isil, isilduurrr.'”

Unsure

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Eldy
Grey Havens


Jun 21, 5:10pm


Views: 774
Mm.

I'd heard of Carine, but wasn't sure if she would be replacing Anárion or existing alongside him. Both Isildur and Anárion had four sons each, so it's not like elite Númenóreans only ever had small families, and we know the family trees from that era are incomplete (Amandil, Elendil, and both his sons all must have had wives, but none are ever named). So I don't mind new family members being added, though it would be nice to see Anárion get some respect one of these days. :P

The running through a crowd scene sounds pretty corny, though I suppose it might work better in context...


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jun 21, 5:17pm


Views: 769
My assumption

I haven't specifically heard that Anárion was out, but since we haven't heard anything to the contrary, but have heard about the sister, my assumption is that she is in and he is out.

Of course, I could be wrong.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Silvered-glass
Rivendell

Jun 22, 9:58am


Views: 727
Anárion

I'd say there is a high chance that the sister will join the army dressed as a man and call herself Anárion.

The writers will justify this by pointing out that in Tolkien the Moon is male and the Sun female, so it would only be natural for a character named after the Sun to be actually female.


Asger
Rivendell


Jun 24, 2:48pm


Views: 613
Well, a sister would be OK…

There’s of course lots of people in Numenor not mentioned in the rexts. But I would very much like to see Isildur and Anarions younger brother Herendil. There could be a higly dramatic story about he being of the ‘kings men’ and opposing his father and brothers. But that will obviously not happen.

"Don't take life seriously, it ain't nohow permanent!" Pogo
www.willy-centret.dk


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 24, 8:33pm


Views: 580
What about a romance?

The actual rumor that has been spreading is that Carine will form a romantic relationship with a previously undocumented son of Pharazon. That, itself, is a bit of a problem as the Numenoreans are characterized as monogamous and there is no hint in the legendarium that Pharazon had a wife before Miriel or fathered any children out of wedlock. Plus a Romeo/Juliet romance is a tired old trope.

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations


Eldy
Grey Havens


Jun 24, 8:54pm


Views: 573
Monogamy


In Reply To
That, itself, is a bit of a problem as the Numenoreans are characterized as monogamous


The absolute monogamy of the Númenóreans was a characteristic of their semi-sanctified state in the early part of their history, when they came as close to being like Elves, which Tolkien imagined in even more rarefied terms in the later part of his life, as any branch of humanity ever did. Book!Pharazôn lived a thousand-plus years after "the Shadow" set in on Númenor, though, and he represented the nadir of his society's moral decline. Having a child out of wedlock would be the least of his offenses (if one considers it an offense at all), but as expansions to the source material go, I don't think it would be particularly discordant with the text.

It remains to be seen how ROP will handle the concept of Númenórean moral decline in light of the compressed timeline, but if their society is as anti-Elvish as some of the leaks suggest, it sounds like the Shadow is pretty well entrenched.


(This post was edited by Eldy on Jun 24, 8:56pm)


DGHCaretaker
Lorien

Jun 25, 7:13am


Views: 535
Siblings


In Reply To
It remains to be seen how ROP will handle the concept of Númenórean moral decline...


Brothers and sisters romances. Game of Thrones did it. You don't think Amazon would go there? Gotta keep up with HBO.


Eldy
Grey Havens


Jun 25, 5:04pm


Views: 505
Now that you mention it


In Reply To
Brothers and sisters romances. Game of Thrones did it. You don't think Amazon would go there? Gotta keep up with HBO.


Tolkien "went there" decades before GRRM or HBO did, so... Angelic


DGHCaretaker
Lorien

Jun 25, 5:29pm


Views: 499
Old Hat or Road Already Taken - Can't Decide On Which To Use


In Reply To

In Reply To
Brothers and sisters romances. Game of Thrones did it. You don't think Amazon would go there? Gotta keep up with HBO.


Tolkien "went there" decades before GRRM or HBO did, so... Angelic

Alright. Brothers and brothers then. That'll get some press.


Eldy
Grey Havens


Jun 25, 5:47pm


Views: 494
Well...


In Reply To
Alright. Brothers and brothers then. That'll get some press.


...people are already calling the show a work of fanfiction, so they might as well make full use of popular fanfic tropes. :3


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 25, 8:03pm


Views: 479
Well...

...cousins, at least.

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations


Eldy
Grey Havens


Jun 25, 10:27pm


Views: 460
And siblings...

...in The Children of Húrin, which is what I was referring to. But yes, also cousins in the Akallabêth.


Junesong
Lorien


Jun 27, 11:59am


Views: 359
Imperialism

I always guessed that Numenor's decline would at least in part be seen by the cruel way they begin to settle and master the outer lands. If I'm right that we'll begin the show in medias res then I'm guessing we'll be able to see new Numenorean leaders beginning to tighten the screws on their colonies and harbours in the south and east etc.

This not only provides a cultural nod for those who want it (imperialism is bad - and we're still nursing the wounds of it) but it also serves the plot of the show as it helps set the table for the rise of Sauron.

I don't think things will get overtly sexual.

"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."


Chen G.
Gondor

Jun 27, 4:51pm


Views: 336
Richard Wagner went there first...


In Reply To

In Reply To
Brothers and sisters romances. Game of Thrones did it. You don't think Amazon would go there? Gotta keep up with HBO.


Tolkien "went there" decades before GRRM or HBO did, so... Angelic


Richard Wagner went there, first, although the effect is totally different.

In Wagner and in Martin's, the lovers live with the incest, whereas in Tolkien the incest is treated with outrage, resulting in the lovers taking their own lives.

In Wagner, its a beautiful romance that just happens to be incestuous: audiences get enormously swept-up in Siegmund and Sieglinde's love. In Martin's case, readers/viewers derive a more lewd, voyerustic satisfaction from it.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Jun 27, 4:56pm)


Eldy
Grey Havens


Jun 27, 5:24pm


Views: 325
There are many antecedents...

...of sibling incest in folklore and mythology. Elias Lönnrot was among those who "went there" before Wagner, and his tragic treatment of incest, with both siblings committing suicide after learning the truth, directly inspired Tolkien's handling of the same theme in The Children of Húrin.


squire
Half-elven


Jun 27, 6:02pm


Views: 321
Lönnrot is generally held not to have 'written' the Kullervo legend

His contribution was recording and then ordering existing folk-verses into a longer-form narrative. So it wouldn't be he who 'went there' in the Kullervo story's instance of sibling incest, it would be the anonymous and uncounted singers of Karelia in Finland, over centuries of tale-telling and oral composition of poetry who went there.

As you say, Tolkien famously adapted the Kullervo story into English when just out of college; and then he rewrote it more extensively as the core of his Children of Hurin legend cycle, in both cases preserving the shocking union of the brother and sister.



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Eldy
Grey Havens


Jun 27, 6:16pm


Views: 317
Indeed

Lönnrot "went there" in a similar sense as Wagner, the example Chen mentioned, who was also working from older source material. In both cases, the incest stories predated the modern writers by many centuries, being examples of the sort of folklore and mythology I referred to in my previous post. It's not my intention to claim that the relations between Lönnrot's and Wagner's works and their respective source material are identical, but Lönnrot is generally understood to have done more than simply "record and order" folklore. Hammond & Scull note in the Kalevala's entry in the Reader's Guide that Lönnrot "wrote extra material to provide necessary links between its component tales," and they quote Francis Peabody Magoun as describing the work as "essentially a conflation and concatenation of a considerable number and variety of" sources (a description that could easily be applied to the 1977 Silmarillion as well).


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jun 27, 10:17pm


Views: 289
Have you read ...

the fine essay by Jason Fisher (who used to post here as VisualWeasel) entitled "From Mythopoeia to Mythography: Tolkien, Lönnrot, and Jerome" in the book The Silmarillion: Thirty Years On? He does a good job of comparing Christopher's work compiling the published Silmarillion with Lönnrot's work on the Kalevala

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Eldy
Grey Havens


Jun 27, 10:35pm


Views: 286
Possibly

I own a copy of The Silmarillion: Thirty Years On, although I bought it primarily because I wanted to read Nils Ivar Agøy's essay. I don't think I read all of the others, so I'm not sure if I got to Jason Fisher's, but I probably would've prioritized that one due to name recognition if nothing else. So it might be that Fisher is responsible for the Silmarillion/Kalevala comparison lurking in the back of my mind until it had a reason to come forth.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jun 27, 11:02pm


Views: 281
Well ...

... the book is 15 years old now (which is almost impossible to believe, as it means my book was published 13 years ago, which can't possibly be true.)

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Eldy
Grey Havens


Jun 27, 11:26pm


Views: 277
I definitely...

...did not read it 15 years ago, when I was 12, and only just dipping my toes into Unfinished Tales. Cool


Paulo Gabriel
Lorien

Jun 28, 2:36am


Views: 264
Cool.

Sorry to meddle into your conversation, but did you really read UT at the age of 12? My mother bought it for me for Christmas, I think (I am actually not sure if it was for Christmas, but I was definitely 12) -- which was in 2006 (I am now 27).

Glad to see I am not the only one in the world to have done this (lol).

Did you find it a difficult read at that age?


Eldy
Grey Havens


Jun 28, 3:20am


Views: 149
UT as a pre-teen

First of all, no need to apologize for speaking up!

I did in fact read Unfinished Tales when I was 12, though just barely. I started reading it while killing time in a bookstore waiting for the midnight release of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows in July 2007, less than a month before my 13th birthday. I was a big HP fan as a kid, and still remember the original seven books fondly, but UT was definitely the better of the two purchases I made that night. I don't recall finding it a difficult read, though to give some context, I read and enjoyed The Silmarillion when I was 11, albeit with a great deal of referring to the family trees at the back. :P I tried jumping into HoMe shortly after reading UT, expecting it to be more of the same, but got smacked in the face by the very different ratio of commentary to primary text, and quickly retreated. But it didn't take me long to make another, successful attempt; my Amazon account history tells me I ordered volumes X–XII in April 2008, when I was 13.

What did you make of UT at a young age? I've met a few people who read Tolkien's posthumous works at the same or younger age(s) than me, but not many. I was really taken with the Númenor material right from the start; I remember my long-suffering sister eventually getting exasperated because I wouldn't shut up about it. lol


Junesong
Lorien


Jun 28, 1:11pm


Views: 122
Props

I had no patience as a kid so I was always self-sabotaging amazing opportunities like that.

I remember being in my mid-twenties and a HUGE LOTR/Hobbit fan before I ever got further than page 10 in the Silmarillion. I was waiting to pick up my wife outside the pool store where she worked and an old friend of mine had read LOTR on my recommendation and then kept on going and was knee deep in the Silmarillion. He was telling me the story of Beren and Luthien in the car and I was blown away.

I started reading The Silmarillion that night and got way past page 10. I've read it dozens of times since and now actually love The Silmarillion more than any of Tolkien's other stories.

I've since read UT as well but never made it to HOME - although I did listen through Corey Olson's series on it. Loved it.

"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."


Paulo Gabriel
Lorien

Jul 15, 2:15pm


Views: 63
I don't remember.


In Reply To
What did you make of UT at a young age? I've met a few people who read Tolkien's posthumous works at the same or younger age(s) than me, but not many. I was really taken with the Númenor material right from the start; I remember my long-suffering sister eventually getting exasperated because I wouldn't shut up about it. lol


I don't remember very well, I am not even sure I finished it. Laugh And to this day, I didn't read it again. What I DO remember, however, is that I didn't find it too hard at that age. But then again, I had read The Silmarillion at 11, so that's probably not too surprising.