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Amazon's LOTR Show Sets Cast - TCA



cats16
Valinor


Jan 14, 8:54pm


Views: 1390
Amazon's LOTR Show Sets Cast - TCA

https://deadline.com/...cast-tca-1202830413/

Amazon Studios at TCA today announced the first group of regulars set to star in their adaptation of J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings series. The cast officially includes Robert Aramayo, Owain Arthur, Nazanin Boniadi, Tom Budge, Morfydd Clark, Ismael Cruz Córdova, Ema Horvath, Markella Kavenagh, Joseph Mawle, Tyroe Muhafidin, Sophia Nomvete, Megan Richards, Dylan Smith, Charlie Vickers, and Daniel Weyman. Cameras roll next month. Table reads in New Zealand are already underway.

More to come!

Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!




Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Jan 14, 9:20pm


Views: 1312
Would really be nice

if we knew who was playing what (exception we know Ms. Clark is playing Galadriel). But still, I'll take the news! Smile

My writing and novels:

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Happy reading everyone!


Akhnaten
The Shire

Jan 14, 9:43pm


Views: 1287
Social

It’s all up on the official social accounts

https://www.instagram.com/p/B7UJ9WqjvEm/?igshid=dmr3frggs1fu


jlj93byu
Rivendell

Jan 14, 9:43pm


Views: 1286
Seems pretty youth heavy

The cast seems overwhelmingly youthful and young. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing. Middle age actors may be able to provide more gravitas to their performances, especially when playing very old characters, or characters that are supposed to posses great maturity, such as kings and elves. Maybe it's just the pictures they used, but I felt like I was looking at a high school yearbook with a few teachers thrown in.

Reminding myself, Cate Blanchett was 31 when she portrayed Galadriel, Liv Tyler was about 23/24. Viggo was early 40s. Hugo Weaving was also early 40s. That seems to be a good age to portray the depth one would want in such a long-lived, wise, and mature character.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jan 14, 10:04pm


Views: 1261
My thought exactly

The names of the actors are largely meaningless to me. It would be nice to know whether the names of the characters that they are playing are also meaningless to me, or if they are characters that I actually know of.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


MoreMorgoth
Rivendell

Jan 14, 11:57pm


Views: 1194
Joseph Mawle

Joseph Mawle previously played Inspector Jedidiah Shine on RIPPER STREET which was on for four years on the BBC. He was excellent and makes a wonderful villain.

If they need someone for Sauron - he would be an excellent selection.


Althoun
Lorien

Jan 15, 12:34am


Views: 1169
Interesting

Still no character names to put to the faces, though.

I do wonder why there aren't any prominent actors in the mix, as in Rosamund Pike for WoT and Henry Cavil in The Witcher.

Would have expected most to be less well known and a number of fresh faces, but I might also have expected maybe one or two notables? (i.e. like Sean Bean in the original GoT).


(This post was edited by Althoun on Jan 15, 12:35am)


balbo biggins
Rohan


Jan 15, 12:40am


Views: 1165
Utter apprehension

All the outlets are Calling this j r r tolkiens lord Of the rings series, it just seems kind of odd that we havnt got a name for this TV show yet, lord of the rings on prime? That doesn't even make sense. will they treat it as a sort of pre prequel to the Lord of the rings films ? Or even as part of the same story?

It all just seems wrong to me. I can't believe the estate has let this all happen yet hold onto the silmarillion ( a collection of story's that tolkien actually wrote!)

Every name every subplot every piece of dialogue is going to be so far removed from the original works I just don't know if I can even class it as part of the same thing, even the name boldor annoys me already.

How can they be using timeliness from the appendix and not touch on the silmarillion, it seems all So wrong.

Think how far the hobbit went off track and times that by a hundred!

So that's where I'm at right now, expecting the worse bit hoping for the better. the actors are all fine I'm sure, but the lack of character info is frustrating.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 15, 12:56am


Views: 1151
Exciting news!

I won't have much to say about this, though, until tomorrow. TORn Tuesday starts in a few minutes and I also have to work tonight.

#FidelityToTolkien


Solicitr
Rohan


Jan 15, 1:58am


Views: 1120
All except one very young

but generally not Ralph Lauren-ad pretty so as to send off my warning alarms. One might hope chosen for acting ability and/or part suitability rather than looks.

But still, it all comes down to the writing. It ALWAYS comes down to the writing. Write a bad script, not Barrymore, Olivier, Richardson, Redgrave and Gielgud together could save it.


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Jan 15, 4:24am


Views: 1065
What are we considering "very young"?

Owain Arthur - 35 years old
Nazanin Boniadi - 39 years old
Tom Budge - 37 years old
Joseph Mawle - 45 years old
Daniel Weyman - 43 years old

And I can't find Dylan Smith's age, but he looks to be in late 40s-50s.

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that." - Viggo Mortensen

Come join me in discussing all things cinema, television and literature at ConcerningFantasy.com.


Archestratie
Rivendell


Jan 15, 1:00pm


Views: 943
Yeah

I'm not too familiar with these actors, but I can't wait to see them on screen! I'm pleased to hear some are involved with BBC productions. That's wonder training ground for performers IMHO.

My Low-Magic Fantasy Novel on eBook/hardback: The Huntsman and the She-Wolf

The Huntsman and the She-Wolf on audio Book.


fantasywind
Bree

Jan 15, 3:07pm


Views: 892
exactly my fears

you pretty much summarized what I've been thinking about. We'l see but I'm trying to get my hope up, it's more than likely those hopes would lead to disappointment :).


In Reply To
The names of the actors are largely meaningless to me. It would be nice to know whether the names of the characters that they are playing are also meaningless to me, or if they are characters that I actually know of.


I can say so as well, I haven't seen any of those actors before and this news is once again unhelpful in not releasing a substantial confirmed characters that will appear in this show.


Eruonen
Valinor


Jan 15, 4:34pm


Views: 868
Ismael Cruz Cordova - Annatar???

 


jlj93byu
Rivendell

Jan 15, 4:35pm


Views: 865
Those were the "teachers!"

Not all looked pretty young, but I thought about half did. Those you listed were the ones I figured looked like the older teachers in my yearbook analogy.

The only one on that list that is older than I thought is Nazanin Boniadi at 39 years old. Granted, I thought she looked like older 20s anyway which is older than Liv Tyler when portraying Arwen.

Of the 15 photos, when I looked through them I thought about half looked like early 20s or younger.


Eruonen
Valinor


Jan 15, 4:35pm


Views: 862
Tyroe Muhafidin - he has "elfin" ears

 


Althoun
Lorien

Jan 15, 4:58pm


Views: 852
A number of people on social media have been speculating....

That Ismael has the right "look" for Annatar (if they're going for the Lord of Gifts, pretty and alluring enough to seduce the Noldor of Eregion, type of thing).

Mawle's role ("Oren" in audition scripts) was described by a few reports as "a villain" in the series. That could be Sauron but it might also be a conniving Numenorean nobleman/royal, perhaps even the guy who becomes the Witch-king of Angmar. We have no idea where they're going with the plot or of the initial villain will remain thee ultimate villain himself.

I'm personally hoping that Sauron isn't going to be portrayed as villainous off-the-bat or indeed immediately as Sauron.

If his beguiling illusion was convincing to the High Elves, it should be equally so for the audience early on IMHO.


(This post was edited by Althoun on Jan 15, 4:59pm)


Eruonen
Valinor


Jan 15, 5:32pm


Views: 832
Any guesses who Sophia Nomvete could portray?

 


Eruonen
Valinor


Jan 15, 5:38pm


Views: 828
I see similar casting choices with Amazon's other franchise Wheel of Time.

 


Ataahua
Superuser


Jan 15, 7:31pm


Views: 767
TORN's Facebook page is positing Joseph Mawle as Sauron.

https://www.facebook.com/.../?type=3&theater

I post this with the proviso that TORN's FB crew has been ... less the accurate with LOTR news in the past.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Fantasy novel - The Arcanist's Tattoo

My LOTR fan-fiction


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 15, 7:43pm


Views: 762
To be fair...

...the posting does not state that Mawle is definitely playing Sauron (unless it did say that and was revised). It only states that he might, potentially be Sauron.

#FidelityToTolkien


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 15, 7:49pm


Views: 755
Galadriel


In Reply To

In Reply To
The names of the actors are largely meaningless to me. It would be nice to know whether the names of the characters that they are playing are also meaningless to me, or if they are characters that I actually know of.


I can say so as well, I haven't seen any of those actors before and this news is once again unhelpful in not releasing a substantial confirmed characters that will appear in this show.

We are reasonably certain that Morfydd Clark is playing Galadriel. You can see her recent work as Mina in BBC's new adaptation of Dracula (currently available on Netflix).

#FidelityToTolkien


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 15, 7:55pm


Views: 752
Ismael Cruz Córdova


In Reply To
Ismael Cruz Cordova - Annatar???


Córdova could be Annatar. He might instead be playing one of the Men who receive the Nine Rings from Sauron.

#FidelityToTolkien


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 15, 8:01pm


Views: 749
A Haladin Woman?


In Reply To
Any guesses who Sophia Nomvete could portray?


Might the People of Haleth have been different enough from the other Edain so that Ms. Nomvete might be of that folk? Otherwise, she might be cast as a Southron woman.

From Tolkien's essay "The Drúedain":

Quote
The Folk of Haleth were strangers to the other Atani, speaking an alien language; and though united with them in alliance with the Eldar, they remained a people apart.


The Haladin were also notable for many of the warriors being women.

#FidelityToTolkien

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 15, 8:11pm)


Althoun
Lorien

Jan 15, 8:09pm


Views: 744
Operative wording "will potentially play SAURON"...


In Reply To
https://www.facebook.com/.../?type=3&theater

I post this with the proviso that TORN's FB crew has been ... less the accurate with LOTR news in the past.


Even they are hedging their bets now, which I think is wise after the, ah, recent history as you say.

If the TORN Twitter/FB account had been an ancient Roman sibyl, I daresay the Empire would have collapsed from war or famine centuries earlier than it did, if anyone took faith in its prophecies! Wink


Eruonen
Valinor


Jan 15, 8:20pm


Views: 917
True, maybe the Witch King etc.

He has striking looks and could pull off several different roles.


Eruonen
Valinor


Jan 15, 8:22pm


Views: 915
Nice find on Haleth, I will have to read up on it again.

https://www.tor.com/...ens-renowned-amazon/

"The People of Haleth were broad-shouldered and short, with light hair and eyes."


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jan 15, 8:25pm)


Althoun
Lorien

Jan 15, 8:26pm


Views: 907
Wonder if we'll see any Drúedain...

They are in both Númenor and Middle-earth (i.e. Ras Morthil area) at this time, and would be a new 'race' (their Men, technically, but quite different physiologically from most Atani) to those who haven't read the books and have only seen the films.


Eruonen
Valinor


Jan 15, 8:40pm


Views: 899
Very possible

"The strangest of all the customs of the Folk of Haleth was the presence among them of people of a wholly different kind, the like of which neither the Eldar in Beleriand nor the other Atani had ever seen before" (p. 377, Unfinished Tales). Atani was an Elvish word for Men. These people are the Drûg in the Haladin tongue. Because the Elves reckoned this people along with the Edain they were called Drúedain the Sindarin tongue. They were short stumpy, grew no facial hair (other than eyebrows) except a few men "...who were proud of the distinction..." (p. 377, Unfinished Tales), black eyes as dark as their pupils, wide mouths, deep and gutteral voices, and a laughter that set all who heard it, be they Elf or Man, laughing too. They were very few of number. It's important to note that Tolkien is adamant these are NOT Hobbits despite some similar features." http://middleearthinayear.blogspot.com/...th-and-druedain.html


MoreMorgoth
Rivendell

Jan 15, 8:55pm


Views: 894
Mawle

Mawle was exceptional as the evil Inspector Shine on RIPPER STREET. He is one of those actors who steals every scene he is in making himself the focus of it. If he is playing Sauron, it is a stroke of genius.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 15, 9:06pm


Views: 887
Hmmm.


In Reply To
https://www.tor.com/...ens-renowned-amazon/

"The People of Haleth were broad-shouldered and short, with light hair and eyes."


I wonder if that early description holds true in later writings. Still, there's room for some reinterpretation if the Estate is amenable.

#FidelityToTolkien


Althoun
Lorien

Jan 15, 9:48pm


Views: 873
Can't discount Celebrimbor as initial 'foil' villain tho...


In Reply To
Mawle was exceptional as the evil Inspector Shine on RIPPER STREET. He is one of those actors who steals every scene he is in making himself the focus of it. If he is playing Sauron, it is a stroke of genius.


This is a genuine possibility if (as seems quite apparent to me from map & various other little hints), they are relying heavily on the Second Age account in the History of Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales.

Celebrimbor is a very 'ambiguous' personality in Tolkien's writings, and I feel sure they'll go with the standard version of him being Feanor's grandson, and thus partly under the 'curse' or at least the shadow/memory of it.

This would be partly why he is so intent on healing the scarred lands of Middle-earth, given his family's role in the ruin of Beleriand in the War of the Silmarils in the First Age, as an idealistic, utopian endeavour.

But he is also thoroughly ambitious, and there is the implication of jealousy in the UT narrative about his unreciprocated love for Galadriel.

He then goes on, under Annatar's influence, to orchestrate the coup of the Gwaith-i-Mírdain (in this UT version I'm almost sure they'll be relying on), seizing power in Eregion and overthrowing Galadriel and Celeborn, forcing the former to flee to Lothlorien through Khazad-Dum.

Celebrimbor then forges the Rings of Power.

Of course, when he learns the truth about Sauron he seeks out Galadriel in remorse and gifts her Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, before being brutally murdered by Sauron.

He would thus be a villain of great pathos and sympathy from the audience, but the 'coup' would be a truly villainous act.

I see Annatar as being like Shakespeare's Iago in Othello. Everybody (pretty much except Galadriel & Gil-galad) trusts him unfailingly, he seems so moral, but he's mixing & playing everyone around him whole time like chess pieces. I don't think they'd portray him as a villain or Sauron right off the bat, so I expect a foil antagonist early on.

Observor ran an independent last November that correctly got all the audition names right (later leaked), it also said: "Mawle is said to be playing Oren, a villain who can also evoke a deep sense of pathos built around a wounded and fallen nobility. Though the character is middle-aged, Oren will possess a certain degree of physicality and project a sense of timelessness.""

This could apply to either Sauron or Celebrimbor - but on balance I think even the originally penitent Sauron with the idealistic intent still wouldn't elicit 'pathos' (sympathy) from the audience - he's still more like Iago, a manipulator and sociopath (even if, originally, for "the greater good"). Charming & persuasive, not coming across evil, but I'm not sure about 'pathos'. Albeit as Annatar he would come across as charming, but I still don't see him as "wounded" - Celebrimbor seems like the more conflicted, wounded person, bitter and ambitious in equal measure.

Annatar, I'd never have personally thought of as "middle-aged" since he needs to be seductive for the ever-youthful Noldor Elves of Eregion (but 'a sense of timelessness' could be indicative). Eldien (Morfydd Clark's Galadriel) is described "as a complex, unique and formidable young woman in her mid-20s who possesses an eternal quality and a strong physical component", so timeless/eternal could simply mean Elven, although I doubt he'd be middle-aged looking if an Elf (Tolkien said this only happened through severe stress, if I recall).

To be fair, two of the main scriptwriters (Hutchison & Shang) from their Twitter feed seem to like console games, so they might be influenced a little by the "older/middle-aged-looking" Celebrimbor of the Shadow of Mordor games.


(This post was edited by Althoun on Jan 15, 9:50pm)


TheHutt
Gondor


Jan 16, 7:10am


Views: 786
I say, Khamul.


In Reply To

In Reply To
Ismael Cruz Cordova - Annatar???


Córdova could be Annatar. He might instead be playing one of the Men who receive the Nine Rings from Sauron.


I say, Khamul, 2nd important Nazgûl.

The Hobbit: An Unexpected Booklet - Custom Booklet Project



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 16, 2:03pm


Views: 716
Very Likely


In Reply To

In Reply To
Córdova could be Annatar. He might instead be playing one of the Men who receive the Nine Rings from Sauron.


I say, Khamul, 2nd important Nazgûl.


That is my best guess also, reminding me of the days when Ricardo Montalban might be cast as anything from an American Indian to Khan Noonien Singh.

#FidelityToTolkien


Solicitr
Rohan


Jan 16, 4:06pm


Views: 686
Fortunately for Amazon

Tolkien was very vague as to the ethnicity or racial makeup of the "Easterlings." He could easily have seen them as a series of different barbarian peoples, as various as Scythians, Sarmatians, Slavs, Huns, Magyars, Mongols and Turks, having nothing more in common than coming out of the East.

(I was going to say Goths, but the Northmen have that role covered)


Althoun
Lorien

Jan 16, 5:21pm


Views: 668
The boy, Tyroe, I think is Amroth

The young boy, Tyroe Muhaffadin, has surely got to be an "elf-child". He just has to be, given that he has the most Elven ears I've ever seen (naturally) and a very angelic face. If he's not a Elf-boy, then it's the biggest lost opportunity I've seen.

I'm going to guess that Tyroe is Amroth, son of Galadriel in the major Unfinished Tales version of her history in the Second Age. We know from the leaked audition scripts that Eldien (Galadriel) has a "son" whom she is very protective of. Beldor refers to him in one of the leaked scenes:



Quote
Beldor: Go home Eldien! If not for yourself… do it for your son.

Eldien: For the sake of the long path we have walked together I’ll dismiss your words as carelessness, but if you ever use my family against me our friendship is over!


If Tyroe is not the "son" (i.e. Amroth), I'd be truly surprised - as he looks like an Elf - and he's in the main cast, so Galadriel's "son" is the obvious candidate.

The fact that this Amazon Galadriel has a 'son' would indicate that their following the UT account, and that he's Amroth (yep, the one who grew up to become the King of Lórien and fall in love with the lower-class Silvan elf Nimrodel, who lived there, to tragic effect).

I have no idea which actor his dad, Celeborn, might be. Maxim Baldry, who is no longer here (at least in this batch), could convincingly have portrayed his father given some physical resemblances between them. Perhaps Celeborn is one of the key roles yet to be cast.

Owain Arthur could be a dwarf or a Drug (Drúedain). I saw the video of the leaked audition script for a character called Brac, who appeared to be some kind of Middle-earth native living in Númenor, who found the urban living not to his liking. I think he's a Drug - the actor playing seemed to be portraying a not-entirely-human character (Drúedain are Men but of a very unique kind). The guy second along top looks to me like he could comvingly portray the same archetype and he even has a physical resemblance to the rejected auditionee I saw:


Quote
Brac: I don’t know how you do it. There’s far too much built here. It’s too bright.

Radagar: It’s the dead of night.

Brac: And yet it feels like noon-day. The night should be a blanket, wrapped around keen and close air. It’s far too wide here, disconnected. I can’t ever quite escape the feeling that it’s all about to fall over. I think I’ll take off tomorrow, head back to my homeland.

Radagar: But you’ve only just arrived!

Brac: Yes, and I appreciate both your queen’s hospitality and your own… But I miss the fields and the night skies and Emma. I miss Emma.

Radagar: Very well. But there is something I need to ask of you.Brac: Spit it out, then.

Radagar: The queen…

Brac: Radagar…

Radagar: She wanted me to tell you that our people will make amends for each yield of crop you lost during our wars.Brac: Well, it’s a great relief to know that there’s still some honor left in the west. But let us not talk of politics and grievances tonight. Tell me the old tales of your people.



(This post was edited by Althoun on Jan 16, 5:24pm)


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan


Jan 16, 6:36pm


Views: 644
My thoughts exactly,

About Tyroe Muhafidin. If he is not playing Amroth (or an elf, at any rate) then I think that's a wasted opportunity: his ears are completely pointed.

"It is my duty to fight" - Mulan


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 17, 3:55pm


Views: 478
That actually sounds accurate.


In Reply To
Tolkien was very vague as to the ethnicity or racial makeup of the "Easterlings." He could easily have seen them as a series of different barbarian peoples, as various as Scythians, Sarmatians, Slavs, Huns, Magyars, Mongols and Turks, having nothing more in common than coming out of the East.

(I was going to say Goths, but the Northmen have that role covered)


Yeah, that's pretty much how I see the Easterlings: a loose confederation of diverse peoples united under Sauron. Most of the peoples of the Uttermost East of Middle-earth might never have even ever seen a Man of Northman stock. Some nearer to Dorwinion and Rhovanion seem to be related to the Northmen themselves.

#FidelityToTolkien

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 17, 3:59pm)


Hasuwandil
Rivendell


Jan 19, 2:29am


Views: 291
A suggestion

A possibility: Tyroe Mufahidin is a young Easterling refugee who is avoiding capture by a usurper. Megan Richards is, perhaps, his sister. Tyroe's character is named Khamûl.

Hêlâ Auriwandil, angilô berhtost,
oƀar Middangard mannum gisandid!


fantasywind
Bree

Jan 19, 11:03am


Views: 259
child Amroth? Unlikely..


In Reply To
About Tyroe Muhafidin. If he is not playing Amroth (or an elf, at any rate) then I think that's a wasted opportunity: his ears are completely pointed.


I can't see that happening for some reason, besides Amroth takes part in battles in Second Age war so...of course it may be possible but, why would they do that? I see no story telling purpose in casting a child for role of an Elf when they could not have much to do with him, he will probably play either completely original role we can't yet guess or (far less likely) an existing character as a child (Ibal of Mariner's Wife, very unlikely), my bet it will be original character. Of course all my musings are taking into account if the available material for History of Galadriel and Celeborn even would be used at all.

Amroth disregarding his origin, is taking part in events:


Quote
Galadriel thereupon left Eregion and passed through Khazad-dûm to Lórinand, taking with her Amroth and Celebrían; but Celeborn would not enter the mansions of the Dwarves, and he remained behind in Eregion, disregarded by Celebrimbor. In Lórinand Galadriel took up rule, and defence against Sauron.
...
He would indeed have been overwhelmed had not Sauron host been attacked in the rear; for Durin sent out a force of Dwarves from Khazad-dûm, and with them came Elves of Lórinand led by Amroth.


Of course we can think that the boy will play younger version of character but that would mean he would have very little screen time. Still my analysis is worth less than nothing, as I'm thinking in terms of Tolkien story, and it's clear Amazon will try to make their own thing if not downright fanfiction.


Solicitr
Rohan


Jan 19, 1:51pm


Views: 247
While I realize

that these are just audition scripts, if this represents the style and quality of the dialogue for this show then I think the outlook is very bleak indeed.

(and if the show were planning to use Tolkien-grade dialogue, you would think they would insist on using it for auditions, for how else could they tell if an actor was capable of pulling it off without sounding like Tony Curtis in Spartacus?)


fantasywind
Bree

Jan 19, 2:58pm


Views: 242
casting tapes dialogue


In Reply To
that these are just audition scripts, if this represents the style and quality of the dialogue for this show then I think the outlook is very bleak indeed.
(and if the show were planning to use Tolkien-grade dialogue, you would think they would insist on using it for auditions, for how else could they tell if an actor was capable of pulling it off without sounding like Tony Curtis in Spartacus?)


I think I agree on that point, the dialogue in those casting tapes is bad, it doesn't even try, those sound like random talks of people and you wouldn't even tell it's set in Middle-earth, there is no particular speech style, every line is the same, there is nothing about the language that would seem tolkienesque. The dialogue issue is one of the things where this show could fall apart, outside of the main narrative set in SA the Mariner's Wife which has loads of dialogue, outside that there are some lines written by Tolkien but nowhere near enough for a tv show, so lots of it will have to written by script writers either way, let's hope it won't this bad (besides I will riot if at least some portion of Tolkien written dialogue will not get into series :)).


2ndBreffest
Lorien


Jan 19, 3:13pm


Views: 231
yes...

based on that dialogue, you would think they were auditioning for an episode of Xena Warrior Princess.


Solicitr
Rohan


Jan 19, 3:25pm


Views: 226
Yup


Quote
(Tolkien to Hugh Brogan, Sept 1955) I know well enough what a
modern would say. 'Not at all my dear G. You don't know your own skill as a doctor. Things aren't
going to be like that. I shall go to the war in person, even if I have to be one of the first casualties'
— and then what? Theoden would certainly think, and probably say 'thus shall I sleep better'! But
people who think like that just do not talk a modern idiom. You can have 'I shall lie easier in my
grave', or 'I should sleep sounder in my grave like that rather than if I stayed at home' – if you like.
But there would be an insincerity of thought, a disunion of word and meaning. For a King who
spoke in a modern style would not really think in such terms at all, and any reference to sleeping
quietly in the grave would be a deliberate archaism of expression on his part (however worded) far
more bogus than the actual 'archaic' English that I have used.



Althoun
Lorien

Jan 19, 3:45pm


Views: 219
Yeah, the dialogue is atrocious....


In Reply To
that these are just audition scripts, if this represents the style and quality of the dialogue for this show then I think the outlook is very bleak indeed.

(and if the show were planning to use Tolkien-grade dialogue, you would think they would insist on using it for auditions, for how else could they tell if an actor was capable of pulling it off without sounding like Tony Curtis in Spartacus?)


But nearly every audition tape I've ever viewed, for a production, is similarly dire in quality and never actually used in the subsequent show/film.

The Star Wars one (for the first film of the recent trilogy), infamously involved nonsense about "blood" in "barns".

They are intended to test ability to convey character traits & hokey dialogue is sometimes considered a plus, in that a "good actor" should be able to play the phone book with skill and verve.

What reason do we have to believe that these audition scripts are any different?


2ndBreffest
Lorien


Jan 19, 4:05pm


Views: 207
well...

truthfully, the dialogue that did actually end up in the first disney SW movie is far from the quality that I would expect to see in any decent adaptation of Tolkien. However, yes there's no reason at this point to believe that the dialogue in those audition tapes are actual in show dialogue, but there's similarly no reason to believe that it isn't either...one thing however is certain, what we are seeing is not in any way similar to anything you would ever see in any of Tolkien's writings.


Althoun
Lorien

Jan 19, 4:12pm


Views: 205
No disagreement from me there....


In Reply To
truthfully, the dialogue that did actually end up in the first disney SW movie is far from the quality that I would expect to see in any decent adaptation of Tolkien. However, yes there's no reason at this point to believe that the dialogue in those audition tapes are actual in show dialogue, but there's similarly no reason to believe that it isn't either...one thing however is certain, what we are seeing is not in any way similar to anything you would ever see in any of Tolkien's writings.


I'm just wary of prejudging anything until we see something official in the way of dialogue/plot/script.

All we have thus far is general setting (in the most general way, literally just 'Second Age') and a bunch of actors, nothing in the way of what source material they are actually using, the main storyline, the visual look, the themes etc.

My reticence in viewing audition scripts as, in any sense, an indication of what to expect is simply on the basis of past experience from other shows.

I'm no Star Wars fan, myself (and wouldn't rate any of the films), but I will say that the dialogue in the actual first film was much better than the audition scripts - a low bar, perhaps, given that the former were gobbledegook, but it certainly was a whole lot better.


(This post was edited by Althoun on Jan 19, 4:12pm)


squire
Half-elven


Jan 19, 4:52pm


Views: 192
That letter highlights the problems faced by "Tolkien" screenwriters

His point to Brogan wasn' t just that it's impossible to have characters in a fantasy medieval-style setting talk in modern idiom. Earlier in that same passage he points out that Theoden also doesn't talk in actual medieval style, as that would be hard for modern readers to decode even if the vocabulary was limited to still surviving words:
"But take an example from the chapter that you specially singled out (and called terrible): ‘Nay, Gandalf!’ said the King. ‘You do not know your own skill in healing. It shall not be so. I myself will go to war, to fall in the front of the battle, if it must be. Thus shall I sleep better.’
"Using only words that still are used or known to the educated, the King would really have said: ‘Nay, thou wost not thine own skill in healing. It shall not be so. I myself will go to war, to fall . . .’ etc." (also Letter 171)
Tolkien, in short, is defending his decision to invent a new style of dialogue for his epic, what he called "moderated or watered archaism". In my opinion, his readers respond to his invention, and those who don't like it don't like the books in general. The result is that Tolkien fans know Tolkien when they hear him (so to speak), without really being able to pinpoint what makes his language so distinctive.

Assuming that the writers for this new series are actually going to try to write original material that 'sounds like Tolkien', they have a huge burden. Adaptation to the screen from existing writing is hard enough. This new project isn't adaptation, it's pure invention; and yet the bar is to write speeches that sound like Tolkien wrote them - Tolkien, who'd read hundreds of medieval narratives and figured out how to update their language to be readable for a 20th century audience yet not sound like the speakers were 20th century people.



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Solicitr
Rohan


Jan 19, 4:57pm


Views: 185
As evidenced by

the decided upward shift in tone in the LR movies whenever genuine Tolkien dialogue made an appearance; Boyens etc couldn't pull it off even on those occasions when they tried.


Mari D.
Rivendell


Jan 19, 5:02pm


Views: 183
Thanks for your estimate ... & curious question


In Reply To
Mawle was exceptional as the evil Inspector Shine on RIPPER STREET. He is one of those actors who steals every scene he is in making himself the focus of it. If he is playing Sauron, it is a stroke of genius.


I haven't seen the series/movie myself - it is great to hear that Mr. Mawle is capable of such mesmerizing/captivating acting.

There's still this one aspect I'm worried about though. I think the actor handsome, yes. But he has a certain shrewd/sly look I'm not sure would lend itself to the pretense of innocent goodness. Once Sauron's evil is revealed, yes, perfect casting. But as long as he's still trying to hide it ... if Annatar doesn't instantly appear to me as a viewer as super-good-guy, why would I buy that he fools the ever-so-wise elves, if he is really putting all his effort into taking on a harmless, beautiful shape?

Of the presented cast, I'd think the one that's most this "I'm so noble believe me" type would be Daniel Weyman.

(If Mr. Mawle is playing Sauron, I wonder if they could do some subtle changes via make up or CGI that fall away once Sauron's evil is revealed ... that might also be interesting ...)

What do you (or others) think about how well Mr. Mawle is able to portray thoroughly innocent goodness? As I said, never watched anything from him ... would be pleased to hear you think he could nail that, too.


(This post was edited by Mari D. on Jan 19, 5:09pm)


2ndBreffest
Lorien


Jan 19, 5:05pm


Views: 254
yes...

which is exactly the reason why, if they are not working very closely with Tolkien experts who really understand his writing style on a scholarly level, are setting themselves up for disaster. On the other hand, if their intention is to only please PJ movie fans (which I suspect will likely be the case) , that burden is reduced to practically nil.


MoreMorgoth
Rivendell

Jan 19, 5:25pm


Views: 247
Malwe as Sauron

That is a great question about the ability of Malwe to portray someone who is seen as beautiful and later runs evil. I like your suggestion that makeup would take this far. Film history is loaded with actors who could play both the good guys and the bad guys.


Solicitr
Rohan


Jan 19, 5:26pm


Views: 250
An example of

the real deal:
(with modernised spelling)


Quote
To my right worshipful husband, John Paston, dwelling in the Inner Temple at London, in haste

Right worshipful husband, I recommend me to you, desiring heartily to hear of your welfare, thanking God of your amending of the great disease that you have had; and I thank you for the letter that you sent me, for by my troth my mother and I were nowth in hearts' ease from the time that we wost of your sickness, till we wost verily of your amending


(continued in the original spelling):


Quote
My moder be hestyd a nodyr ymmage of wax of the weytte of yow to oyer Lady of Walsyngham, and sche sent iiij. nobelys to the iiij. Orderys of Frerys at Norweche to pray for yow, and I have be hestyd to gon on pylgreymmays to Walsingham, and to Sent Levenardys for yow; be my trowth I had never so hevy a sesyn as I had from the tyme that I woste of yowr sekenesse tyl I woste of yowr a mendyng, and zyth myn hert is in no grete esse, ne nowth xal be, tyl I wott that ze ben very hal.



squire
Half-elven


Jan 19, 7:41pm


Views: 222
Echoes of Tolkien

Even so prosaic a letter as that is simply crawling with usages that Tolkien put into his writing of "watered archaism":
‘No,’ said Faramir. ‘But my heart would. For it seems less evil to counsel another man to break troth than to do so oneself, especially if one sees a friend bound unwitting to his own harm.' (LR IV.6)

“This is a bitter adventure, if it must end so; and not a mountain of gold can amend it." (Bilbo speaking, TH 18)

[Galadriel] stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful. (LR II.7)

...the hobbits breathed deep, and suddenly Sam laughed, for heart’s ease not for jest. (LR IV.4)

"If I do not come, Elrond will advise you. Yours in haste GANDALF”.(LR I.10)
The trick is not to overdo it.



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2ndBreffest
Lorien


Jan 19, 8:32pm


Views: 204
yes...

yet, while I fear it may be too much to ask to expect this level of dialogue in the series, Amazon, if you are reading this, if nothing else, do try to avoid lines like "I could have anything down my trousers." and "...because it was real." Also, please try to aim higher than fart gags for comic relief. thank you.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea

Feb 1, 9:40pm


Views: 73
In later interpretations...

...those known as Dunlendings were descendants of the Folk of Haleth. I can't directly recall any description, but I seem to remember them being called "sallow-skinned" at some point or another. "Sallow-skinned" generally means olive-toned, like southern or eastern European.