The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Middle-earth TV Series Discussion:
Lord of the Rings TV series: Bearded men, missing teeth and people over 200cm wanted



Moahunter
Rohan


Oct 10 2019, 5:22am


Views: 2396
Lord of the Rings TV series: Bearded men, missing teeth and people over 200cm wanted

https://www.stuff.co.nz/...vvYFek3aS0hU3BD4O0d0


Althoun
Lorien

Oct 10 2019, 9:42am


Views: 2290
BGT

Here's the casting call from one of the agencies yesterday (BGT):

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2079569812144312&id=628001013967873

BGT Actors Models & Talent

Yesterday at 7:32 AM ·

Lord of the Rings - Casting now!! For the upcoming Amazon Original series based on The Lord of the Rings”

ALL APPLICANTS PLEASE APPLY FOR A FREE TRIAL PROFILE. ALL APPLICANTS ARE FREE.

If you are registered with BGT and you are suitable you will already be submitted.

We need

short people under 4 foot 12 If this is you please call Evelina on 021-398-727
Tall people over 6 foot 5 - If this is you please call Evelina on 021 - 398-727 now.
Character faces, wrinkles and lots of them please
Androgynous men and women
Hairy hairy people of all ages and ethnicities
Tall, Long Lithe dancers
Circus performers who can juggle, stilt walk!
Stocky mean-looking bikers
Eurasian people of all ages.
Hispanic - Latino, Mexican, South American - HOLA
Red heads all ages, shapes and sizes. 12.HAIR HAIR HAIR - if you natural red hair, white hair, or lots and lots of freckles.
All other roles please apply our website.

How to Apply!!! head to our Application form.

https://www.bgt.nz/join/talent/application.html

When you get to the bit of the application form that says how did you hear about us please pop in the role type as per above.

As an example,

if you are 4 foot 10 pop that in and put in LOTR if you are covered in Freckles pop in Freckles LOTR if you are tall pop in 7 foot 2 Tall LOTR If you are in Auckland and you want to come and sign up in person - then please do.

We are based next to the Auckland film studios at 1/3 Rabone street, Henderson.

Please park in the street and ring the BGT BELL.

Emma our talent manager will be there to greet you. We will sign you up, take some fabulous photos and then submit you to the fabulous production.

Any questions at all pls email me - Evelina on evelina@bgt.nz

lotronprime #bgtnz #backgroundtalent #extras #beontv #beinthemovies #extra #lordoftherings #thehobbit
fansoflordoftherings #sarahvalentine


Althoun
Lorien

Oct 10 2019, 10:09am


Views: 2281
Short people under four feet 12?

I was very much concerned that they put this particular class of people first in the list of casting reqs in that BGT casting call.

Sounds a bit Hobbity.

There are no hobbits among the main cast of Second Age characters, nor do any live in Númenor, Eregion, Lindon, Minhiriath or Enedwaith where the show should be based.

They hadn't yet emerged in the Second Age and Tolkien expressly tells us that there were "no hobbits" in the older legends.

As such, I hope we get a surprise and they are Drúedain or Dwarves.


(This post was edited by Althoun on Oct 10 2019, 10:10am)


Chen G.
Rohan

Oct 10 2019, 12:55pm


Views: 2257
I'm sure they want Dwarves, not Hobbits

which is in itself surprising. A show set in the early-to-mid Second Age would likely focus on Elves and Men of Numenor (and, you know, the odd corrupted Maia).

To see that they also want to keep the Dwarves around as part of the visual texture of Middle Earth is nice, and reassuring.

The need for tall people and for those walking on stilts seem to me to be required for scale-work.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Oct 10 2019, 1:58pm


Views: 2243
My thinking also:

Dwarves. Maybe we get to see Khazad-dum in all its pride and glory? If there's a segment on the Elves in Hollin working with the Dwarves in Moria, and even casually saying "Mellon" to open the doors, that would be a treat.

Can't fathom the call for red hair, and considering how everyone seemed wigged in LOTR anyway, I wonder why it matters. Same goes with freckles--can't you paint them on easily? But, I don't make movies, so I'm sure it makes sense somehow.


fantasywind
Bree

Oct 10 2019, 2:14pm


Views: 2239
:) feature requirements


In Reply To
Dwarves. Maybe we get to see Khazad-dum in all its pride and glory? If there's a segment on the Elves in Hollin working with the Dwarves in Moria, and even casually saying "Mellon" to open the doors, that would be a treat.
Can't fathom the call for red hair, and considering how everyone seemed wigged in LOTR anyway, I wonder why it matters. Same goes with freckles--can't you paint them on easily? But, I don't make movies, so I'm sure it makes sense somehow.


I would ask the same regarding lack of teeth :), but jokes aside this is a strange casting call, why those specifics exactly? No idea, the presence of Dwarves I would expect to be natural (I hope they won't succumb to temptation to show Hobbits). Khazad-dum halls that we already glimpsed in movie format, seen in actual time of glory and wealth, full of light and splendor would be a welcome element, crystal lamps of Khazad-dum, inhabited sprawling with activity halls and tunnels and working mines would make for a nice scenery, besides plot important characters pass through Moria, once Galadriel and her daughter Celebrian, also Amroth is mentioned, and second time for the war of the Elves and Sauron, dwarven and elven troops of Lorinand are issuing from the West-door. Elves of Amroth folk (though maybe they would go to show his father Amdir/Malgalad if they would use material of Unfinished Tales well).


uncle Iorlas
Lorien


Oct 10 2019, 3:43pm


Views: 2218
perhaps things have changed

but a while back they explicitly wanted hobbits, and I rather suspect they still do. They'll change what they have to to get there (or more likely, they'll change exponentially more than they would have to). We'll see. There are ways to squeak them in that wouldn't break things too badly.


Althoun
Lorien

Oct 10 2019, 3:55pm


Views: 2209
The problem...

Is that Hobbit characters would serve no purpose for the general shape of the Second Age and the essential plot points they need to tick off from the Appendices.

I would be OK with them in the background - somewhere far up the Valley of Anduin between Rhovanion and the Misty Mountains, where Tolkien has them originating - as an obscure (at this stage, not yet settled/sedentary as in the Shire later on) hunter-gatherer sort of 'little people' that hide away in their holes and take nothing to do with the affairs of the 'Big People'.

According to the established lore, they would essentially remain like this until the year 1050 of the Third Age, when the first daring Hobbits cross the Misty Mountains into Eriador, after Sauron takes up his abode in Mirkwood, thus entering for the first time into the in-world 'historical record'.

If they absolutely want for - some reason - to shoe-horn in Hobbits, that's how it should be done - brief, background characters encountered in travels between Rhovanion and the Misty Mountains by Númenóreans, Elves or Dwarves.

The only thing that had me worried about this casting call was the fact that the first extras being called for were these short people under "foot feet 12 inches", implying these will be prominent types of characters on the show. That really would not be kosher if these are Hobbits.

But, they did also ask for 'earthy, weathered, dark skin tones, missing teeth, wonderful noses' on the Talento casting call (not Hobbity looking), so the 'little people' here could be Drúedain (who would be present in both Númenor and Middle-earth at this time)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 10 2019, 4:03pm


Views: 2197
Wild Men, Dwarves and Elven Lords

I've got to agree with the general consensus that the call is not for Hobbits unless we get some flash-forwards (maybe Bilbo, Frodo or Sam is narrating?).

Appearances by the Drúedain are certainly possible, but--though they would be short and stocky compared to most other Men--they would still be counted among the Big Folk. The call for shorter actors is most likely for the casting of Dwarves.

Perhaps the call for red heads has to do with an Easterling tribe or Wild Men inhabiting Eriador.

I wonder if the call for performers proficient with stilts might involve Trolls and/or Ents?

The other calls for taller actors are probably for both Númenóreans and Elf-lords.

Btw, people don't say "4 feet 12 inches" any more than they would say "5 meters 100 centimeters"; they say "5 feet".

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 10 2019, 4:10pm)


The Dude
Bree

Oct 10 2019, 6:00pm


Views: 2162
My points

1.) Do casting calls usually look so amateurish?

2.) What are "hairy hairy people", exactly? Men with more hair on their back than on their head?

3.) "Stocky mean-looking bikers": I assume this refers to dwarves, but how many bikers are there in New Zealand?

4.) "Eurasian people of all ages": One of the more intriguing casting calls in the list. Of course, it is still far too early to come up with a sound interpretation of said line, but who knows, maybe this refers to a group of people in Rhûn. Maybe their culture will be modeled in parts after some of the pre-modern cultures of the (Western) Eurasian Steppe, e.g., Scythians, Tatars, Pechenegs, Göktürks. And maybe, just maybe, this could imply that the showrunners have done (at least part of) their homework and have read a thing or two about the ethno-cultural landscape of the pre-modern world beyond the Tanais.



squire
Half-elven


Oct 10 2019, 6:39pm


Views: 2152
You're forgetting...

... that Numenorean royalty favored hobbits as jesters in the courts of Armenelos.

Much the way Pippin's mannerisms amused Denethor, Merry's erudition attracted Theoden, and the Shirefolk engaged the Rangers of Eriador in the latter Third Age. They're funny, and wise in unexpected ways. Hard to daunt, when it comes to it. Utterly charming, really. And very reminiscent, when you think of it, of the hobbits that drove the success of the New Line LotR film trilogy.

Wait.. I mean... weren't those the Druedain, in Numenor actually, brought over the Sea to accompany the faithful Men after the wars of the First Age, as laid out in Tolkien's notes? In a cunning twist, it seems that in the run-up to the Downfall, the Drugs took ship back to Middle-earth as they sensed the corruption and coming destruction of their friends' blessed island. And weren't the Druedain reconceived by Tolkien as a possible vehicle for 'earthiness' and 'commoner's perspective' on the lofty 'heigh style' of the Silmarillion's tales, such that Turin's father-figure family retainer Sador was considered for retrofitting as the druadan Sadog?

And so... and so... and so, can't we just cut to the chase and add those pert hobbit jesters, and their families and friends, both in Numenor and in the colonized cities on the mainland, while still staying true to Tolkien's later conceptions?

Why yes. Yes, we can.



squire online:
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 10 2019, 7:45pm


Views: 2132
Maybe...


In Reply To
And so... and so... and so, can't we just cut to the chase and add those pert hobbit jesters, and their families and friends, both in Numenor and in the colonized cities on the mainland, while still staying true to Tolkien's later conceptions?

Why yes. Yes, we can.


...I have a hard time, though, imagining that the Tolkien Estate would approve such an alteration.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)


InTheChair
Lorien

Oct 10 2019, 9:29pm


Views: 2105
I think Wild Men and a few Dwarves rather than Hobbits

For the others:

Character faces, wrinkles and lots of them please : Could also be for the Wild Men, as well as elderly of all races.
Androgynous men and women : I guess Elves, if they stick with the movies effeminate fashion of Elves.
Hairy hairy people of all ages and ethnicities : We could be in Wild Men territory again. Dwarves or Orks possible though less likely. Werewolves perhaps.
Tall, Long Lithe dancers : This must be the Entwives, and one or two Elves.
Circus performers who can juggle, stilt walk! : Who knows. Anything goes.
Stocky mean-looking bikers : This would take us to Ork or Troll country.
Eurasian people of all ages. : Men and Extras?
Hispanic - Latino, Mexican, South American - HOLA : A hard guess. Should be for Numenor. Could be for Harad.
Red heads all ages, shapes and sizes. 12.HAIR HAIR HAIR - if you natural red hair, white hair, or lots and lots of freckles. : Honestly, no idea. Dwarves? Some clan of Elves? Wild Men again?



squire
Half-elven


Oct 10 2019, 10:27pm


Views: 2082
It seems more like an addition than an alteration

As any number of commentators have noted, this entire project is based on liberally adding plot, characters, and places to the existing second age legendarium.

Now in this case, no hobbits are mentioned in the royal courts of Numenor, sure. But the absence of hobbits is not mentioned, either - and the fact that no later records of their presence there exist in the Third Age writings is unsurprising, given the total destruction of the civilization and hobbits' well-known trait of being 'overlooked' by the high and the mighty. Certainly to add them in the way I suggest is no alteration of the stories as we have them. The Tolkien Estate wouldn't have a leg to stand on there, as far as we know.

I'm kidding, of course, in my convoluted justification for getting everyone's favorite Middle-earth race back on the screen for the 'Lord of the Rings' TV series. But I bet the show's writers aren't kidding about that kind of open-minded thinking about what's possible that doesn't, ah, alter the minuscule amount of text by Tolkien on the Second Age, relative to the huge amount of text required by dozens upon dozens of hour-long scripts in the years to come.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Hasuwandil
Lorien


Oct 10 2019, 10:35pm


Views: 2081
A few guesses


In Reply To
For the others:

Character faces, wrinkles and lots of them please : Could also be for the Wild Men, as well as elderly of all races.
Androgynous men and women : I guess Elves, if they stick with the movies effeminate fashion of Elves.
Hairy hairy people of all ages and ethnicities : We could be in Wild Men territory again. Dwarves or Orks possible though less likely. Werewolves perhaps.
Tall, Long Lithe dancers : This must be the Entwives, and one or two Elves.
Circus performers who can juggle, stilt walk! : Who knows. Anything goes.
Stocky mean-looking bikers : This would take us to Ork or Troll country.
Eurasian people of all ages. : Men and Extras?
Hispanic - Latino, Mexican, South American - HOLA : A hard guess. Should be for Numenor. Could be for Harad.
Red heads all ages, shapes and sizes. 12.HAIR HAIR HAIR - if you natural red hair, white hair, or lots and lots of freckles. : Honestly, no idea. Dwarves? Some clan of Elves? Wild Men again?


Stocky mean-looking bikers : Dwarves, I would think. Or Wild Men.
Eurasian people of all ages. : Probably Men, in particular Easterlings.
Red heads all ages, shapes and sizes. 12.HAIR HAIR HAIR - if you natural red hair, white hair, or lots and lots of freckles. : I don't know for sure. Red hair is uncommon among Elves, and the Númenóreans typically have dark hair. In PJ's films we saw a Dwarf and an Elf with red hair, as well as some Men. My guess would be Men of Eriador, Minhiriath, and/or Enedwaith, although there should also be many with dark hair.

I notice they're not advertising for people of average height, with normal features, or with brown or blond (or even dark) hair (and fair skin), but I suppose that's because they know they'll be inundated with such people in New Zealand. If they fish for the unusual, they'll catch plenty of the usual along with them.

Hêlâ Auriwandil, angilô berhtost,
oƀar Middangard mannum gisandid!


Hasuwandil
Lorien


Oct 10 2019, 10:50pm


Views: 2077
Talento

I'm having trouble finding the actual casting call from Talento, but here is a transcription of the image from the Stuff story:


Quote
We are looking for a mix of people of all ages, genders/other from multi-
racial backgrounds with interesting character faces and physicality's.

These are for Background and Featured Performer roles:-

EXAMPLES OF PEOPLE WE ARE LOOKING FOR...

Character Faces (Earthy, Weathered, Dark Skin Tonnes, Missing teeth,
Wonderful Noses etc etc)
Bearded Hairy Biker Men/Woman/Other
Lean Tall Androgynous Looks
Beautiful, Fair Fine boned Faces (you must be willing to wear sheer
clothing )
TALL People - 6" ++
TALLER People 6"8 ++
Small People -- 4"6 to 4"11
Musicians


Typographical errors are not mine. The last line is cut off, so I'm not sure if that's the whole casting call.

Hêlâ Auriwandil, angilô berhtost,
oƀar Middangard mannum gisandid!


Althoun
Lorien

Oct 10 2019, 11:05pm


Views: 2072
While the Second Age material is admittedly very limited...

....it still has a clearly defined shape, dramatis personae, an elegiac tonal quality of relative grimness, horror and tragedy, and the dialogue sections and characterisation we do have are - in my opinion - among Tolkien's best and most distinctive, with Aldarion and Erendis being a genuine little literary gem.

In other words, there is a way of penning many volumes of scripts based off of these generalised plot points, unfinished tales, extracts and annals, that would be in keeping with the spirit and character of this era in the legendarium. It could be done.

Its not as if this is an adaption of the 'Kinstrife' in the Third Age, for which we literally have nothing in the way of prose accounts with dialogue or characterisation to work from as a starting off base. The Second Age material, rudumentary and incomplete though it is, has some truly gripping stuff in it.

We can thus envisage how an extended Second Age epic, akin in scale to LotR, would have been fashioned by Tolkien if he'd deigned to write it, on the basis of the limited prose accounts he actually did write - namely Aldarion and Erendis, in addition to the more generalised account in the Akallabeth.

And one thing is for sure: merry little Hobbitses don't fit the milieu, which is why they aren't there.......

Funnily enough, Tolkien himself addresses this on a number of occasions (#227, to Mrs E. C. Ossen Drijver 5 January 1961):


Quote
The legends of Númenórë are in the background of The Lord of the Rings, though (of course) they were written first, and are only summarised in Appendix A...

I am now under contract engaged (among alas! other less congenial tasks) in putting into order for publication the mythology and stories of the First and Second Ages – written long ago, but judged hardly publishable, until (so it seems) the surprising success of The Lord of the Rings, which comes at the end, has provided a probable demand for the beginnings.

There are, I fear, no hobbits...little fun or earthiness but mostly grief and disaster. Those critics who scoffed at The Lord because 'all the good boys came home safe and everyone was happy ever after' (quite untrue) ought to be satisfied. They will not be, of course – even if they deign to notice the book!



I certainly don't discount the "grim" possibility (pun intended), as Uncle Iorlas has already alluded, that Amazon execs may see fit to use their creative oversight to pressure the writers room into shoehorning hobbits into the SA and adding in gratuitous Hobbitses and all manner of perky Hobbityness - because they think it would be make good commercial sense in light of the box office success of Hobbit-heavy Middle-earth.

Hobbitless Middle-earth is a brave new world and that might entail a degree of 'risk'.

But that would be a bit "having your cake and eating it", as Amazon could easily have pitched a show in 1050 of the Third Age, say, about daring Hobbit explorers fleeing Sauron's rise in Mirkwood by scaling the Misty Mountains and colonizing parts of Arthedain, where the King granted them land to found the Shire.

But, of course, that wouldn't have the same "epicness" as the Second Age - forging of the rings, fall of Númenor, last alliance of Elves and Men.

We know from "The Hobbit" how deadly executive committee decisions can be.

It is an open secret that the abysmal interspecies "Tauriel - Kili - Legolas" love triangle in the Hobbit movies was a studio decision, originally made over the head of the screenwriters and forcibly shoehorned in by New Line, because they thought Tolkien's 'saccharine-sweet' children's book, with the closest thing to romance in it being male bromance among the Dwarves in Bilbo's company, needed some burning romantic passion.

And this, unsurprisingly, was one of the most widely panned and detested dimensions of the trilogy - along with the decision to turn what had originally been two-movies into a three-film extravaganza, thus excessively padding out a slender book with layers upon layers of unnecessarily convoluted subplots.

The result was a bloated mess that likely strayed far from what Philippa Boyens and Fran Walsh would have wanted had the studio simply allowed their creative juices to flow more holistically. Game of Thrones it must be said, succumbed to the exact same dynamic.

Screenwriters and adaptors spend the most time embedded in the author's world, living with characters and settings and themes as they weave drama and build narratives in their scripts. Most of the worst decisions on film or TV emanate from execs removed from the creative process looking at profit charts.

So, I take your scepticism and recognise that it is well-founded.

But, we are tea-leaf reading at the moment. We have no idea what relationship Amazon has with its writers room and the Tolkien Estate. If Shippey is right, the Estate can exercise a veto and has insisted that the "shape of the Second Age" cannot be changed. Surely shoehorning in Hobbits explicitly against the vision of Tolkien and his tonal world-building in the Second Age would be an egregious case of this?

It is plausible to imagine that these 4 foot 12 inch folk are scale-doubles for Dwarves or Drúedain - after all, Gimli's scale double in the original LotR trilogy was four feet 9 inches (so far as I recall).


(This post was edited by Althoun on Oct 10 2019, 11:13pm)


uncle Iorlas
Lorien


Oct 11 2019, 12:57am


Views: 2033
The hard line for hobbits

Leaving aside the author's remarks outside text, is Gandalf's assertion that hobbits had hitherto escaped Sauron's attention. This, I found, defines where you can place them in any pre-trilogy context, because he's all over. He was certainly at the royal court of Numenor.

I feel like stressing again that we still know virtually nothing for certain about this show. Very, very little.


Marmoon
The Shire


Oct 11 2019, 1:42am


Views: 2023
Height of actors

My first impression from reading these casting calls was that they want actors of disparate heights as stand-ins / body doubles for full shots, much in the way Peter Jackson used Kiran Shah and Paul Randall when a short or tall character, respectively, interacted with the principle cast of roughly average height. So it behooves Amazon to have a list of short-statured (4’ 6” - 4’ 11”, 137-150 cm) and very tall (6’ - 6’ 5”+, 183-196 cm) actors on hand when dealing with the wide range of Tolkien's fantasy character heights.

Note how the call for taller actors fits the average Númenórean height (6’ 4”, 193 cm); of course some were taller, and not just Elendil who was exceptionally so. If Númenóreans and Elves will be a strong focus for the show, which I think most of us assume by now, having mostly tall actors to play them would certainly simplify things when it comes to camera work - medium shots, full shots, close-ups, various angles - when interacting with the shorter people of Middle-earth. But a large group of tall actors is not necessary. The show’s principle cast can be fairly average in height so long as they portray same-height characters. Only when needing to contrast their heights with other races would the uncommonly short and tall actors be needed. That could range anywhere from infrequent (a few times per season if same-height Númenóreans occupy most shots) to very frequent (multiple times per episode if there is more height variety amongst the characters, à la Fellowship’s fellowship). If the latter, then casting tall actors for Númenóreans makes more sense.

I concede the possibility that Dwarves, Drúedain, and other diminutive peoples (alas, even Hobbits) could be featured at some point, thus the shorter actors could play a larger role. But my guess is the use of these shorter actors will be mostly for distinguishing the average-height and taller actors.


(This post was edited by Marmoon on Oct 11 2019, 1:44am)


Moahunter
Rohan


Oct 11 2019, 2:54am


Views: 2011
Another casting call.....

from ICAN based in the South Island. Note the last line in the call.
"Urgent - We are submitting for the upcoming Amazon Original series based on The Lord of the Rings and would love to hear from you.
We are looking for specific looks & people with good flexibility for availability in 2020
We need wonderful character faces- large features & broad cheek bones / anyone over 6'9" or under 4'11" / strong fit men / tall lean people / Mixed Ethnicities / tall & beautiful people / Musician eg Fiddlers / Mandolin / Oak Barrell and Strings / Accordion Players / Jugglers Locations in the South Island."


kzer_za
Lorien

Oct 11 2019, 1:21pm


Views: 1951
What if the short people are scale doubles to juxtapose with Numenoreans?

One of many tricks the Jackson movies used for hobbit and dwarf height was to have tall/short stand-ins for the actors. If they're going to emphasize Numenorean height, they will likely follow suit. They could quite possibly be scale doubles for mainland humans and elves to put against the Numenoreans.



(This post was edited by kzer_za on Oct 11 2019, 1:21pm)


uncle Iorlas
Lorien


Oct 11 2019, 2:45pm


Views: 1934
uh

[reply/ Accordion Players /


I don't know what to say to this.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 11 2019, 2:46pm


Views: 1934
I don't know.


In Reply To
One of many tricks the Jackson movies used for hobbit and dwarf height was to have tall/short stand-ins for the actors. If they're going to emphasize Numenorean height, they will likely follow suit. They could quite possibly be scale doubles for mainland humans and elves to put against the Numenoreans.


While the Númenóreans are meant to be tall, I don't think they would be tall enough to require the use of scale doubles for other Men. This may be more true for some of the High Elves (no pun intended).

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)


2ndBreffest
Lorien


Oct 11 2019, 3:21pm


Views: 1919
well...

Tolkien never mentioned this in any of his writings, but since this series will inevitably be 90% fanfic, perhaps the writers have decided that Sauron, on his days off from evil doing, enjoyed judging local polka competitions.


Chen G.
Rohan

Oct 11 2019, 4:38pm


Views: 1892
Yeah, seems a bit anachronistic

The Hobbiton music in the live-action films has accordion, in the score as well as diegetically (Flaming Red Hair), and - appropriately - there's a concertina in the Green Dragon set.

But The Shire is not only an environment we see in the late Third Age - thousands of years after the time of the show - but also is meant to evoke a much later period of history than any other place in Middle Earth.

Maybe the want some kind of framing device? Given the precedent established by the films, its not impossible.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Oct 11 2019, 4:46pm)


Hasuwandil
Lorien


Oct 11 2019, 4:49pm


Views: 1922
Cómo me duele

Hmm, accordions are also used in Tejano music, or Tex-Mex (which has strong Eastern European influences), and they are looking for Latino actors...

Hêlâ Auriwandil, angilô berhtost,
oƀar Middangard mannum gisandid!


Chen G.
Rohan

Oct 11 2019, 4:51pm


Views: 1919
What I meant was

its much too new an instrument to feature in this point of Middle Earth history, and I'm not talking strictly Tolkien here. Seeing it played in Numenor (which is kind-of meant to evoke classical antiquity, and certainly does so in the films) would seem out-of-time.


Marmoon
The Shire


Oct 11 2019, 5:58pm


Views: 1896
Scale doubles

I’m in agreement with kzer_za (though my post above was less concise). Scale doubles will be the easiest way to achieve an approximate 1-foot / 30-cm height difference between Númenóreans and mainlanders. I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to expect seeing Númenóreans portrayed nearing 7 feet / 213 cm, given that their average height was recorded as 6’ 4” / 193 cm. But because of the dearth of very tall actors, short scale doubles will likely be used.


InTheChair
Lorien

Oct 11 2019, 5:58pm


Views: 1896
The Numenorean are supposedly meant to be more advanced than the rest of ME

Pehaps a bit of accordion sound in their theme will help set them apart?


(This post was edited by InTheChair on Oct 11 2019, 5:59pm)


Chen G.
Rohan

Oct 11 2019, 6:34pm


Views: 1883
But

Accordion is too folksy an instrument to be associated with a highly-sophisticated culture. Its why it was used for The Shire.


Hasuwandil
Lorien


Oct 11 2019, 6:51pm


Views: 1881
Lost Atlantis

Yeah, I'm thinking the Númenóreans should be represented by the sound of a theremin, or something like that.

Hêlâ Auriwandil, angilô berhtost,
oƀar Middangard mannum gisandid!


2ndBreffest
Lorien


Oct 11 2019, 7:05pm


Views: 1870
yes...

I agree...and to which I say, do not rule out the possibility of there being hobbits depicted in this. Afterall, the target audience of this is very obviously fans of the PJ movies, all of which had hobbits in them. Purists will be the only ones who will really take issue with something like this for the most part, and fans of the PJ movies have demonstrated far more acceptance of changes and alterations from the source material. I think their main goal will be to create something that looks and feels like the PJ movies and appease that particular audience. Hard-line Tolkien fans are almost certain to be unhappy with this series regardless, due to the amount of fan-ficcing that will be required to flesh out what little Tolkien wrote of this period, and I doubt amazon are going to worry too much about it.


squire
Half-elven


Oct 11 2019, 7:49pm


Views: 1853
What's the advantage of most of the lead characters appearing to be seven feet tall?

It seems like a heck of a lot of work, with the constant risk of a breaking of the illusion in any number of ways involving props, sets, costumes, lighting and body language.-- all for the effect of making them seem like freaks.

And then nowhere in the written stories does the fantastic tallness of Elves and Dunedain serve a plot point or thematic purpose, winning a battle or turning the tables in an otherwise losing situation relative to the shorter races. It seems rather to cater to Tolkien's mythic sense that taller = morally superior Children in the eyes of Eru. In much the same archaic way noblemen were usually taller than serfs in the good old days (thanks to better diets); likewise there is the tradition in medieval art that the more important the character, the larger he or she is drawn in the composition.

It's also eerily, if less offensively, similar to his use of paleness and/or 'fair'-ness to qualify a moral as well as physical beauty in his Elves and Men.



squire online:
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uncle Iorlas
Lorien


Oct 11 2019, 7:52pm


Views: 1852
Fair enough

To be honest I should check myself, I have no idea how old accordions are anyway, though right off the bat I imagine they came along a good bit later than concertinas.


Archestratie
Rivendell

Oct 13 2019, 1:17am


Views: 1751
Eh,


In Reply To


Why need someone with missing teeth? Black caps are easy enough.


squire
Half-elven


Oct 13 2019, 1:38pm


Views: 1697
Notice how the paper's story is illustrated with Astin and Wood as Sam and Frodo

Those two actors have none of the comically eccentric or heightened features that the story focuses on in the casting call.

But they do remind readers that this series will continue Jackson's epic adventure film trilogy, "The Lord of the Rings". I can't wait to see more of Sam and Frodo - this is going to be good.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Lissuin
Valinor


Oct 13 2019, 4:24pm


Views: 1685
"Bearded Hairy Biker men/women/other"

I'm pretty sure they mean these guys, The Hairy Bikers.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/...ing-new-cookbook-tv/

i.e. natural, long hair (long wigs by the dozens are expensive), character faces/bodies for background actors as in Bree and Laketown. "Have hair. Will travel." Location in Middle-earth to be determined.



SirDennisC
Half-elven


Oct 13 2019, 11:01pm


Views: 1636
This particular extras call notwithstanding

Hoping we’ll see more of you in this series, that is if you’re interested!


Lissuin
Valinor


Oct 13 2019, 11:47pm


Views: 1627
I could certainly do a bearded, concertina-playing, hairy biker woman, Sir D.

Laugh

Now, fingers crossed for some filming in Wellington.
(vroom vroom)


The Dude
Bree

Oct 14 2019, 1:38am


Views: 1609
The accordion and high culture

Accordion is too folksy an instrument to be associated with a highly-sophisticated culture. Its why it was used for The Shire.

I think the French would object to that statement. ^^
And the accordion itself is a highly-sophisticated musical instrument, that first rose to fame in the leading cultural cities of nineteenth-century Europe.
Regarding the casting call: Maybe they are searching for accordion players because they need extras who look authentic when playing a similar-looking instrument. It is unlikely that we will actually get to hear them play. I would not dismiss the chance of a "Hobbiton intro" either, however.



Althoun
Lorien

Oct 17 2019, 8:51pm


Views: 1397
Instruments in LotR...

There is an interesting reference in HoMe to the instruments played by the Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri respectively:

Vanyar - 'congregated harps'
Noldor - 'viols and instruments'
Teleri - 'pipes'

Speaking of musical instruments more generally, this discussion has brought the following paragraph from chapter 5 (The Steward and the King) of RotK to my mind.

Its just before the bit where Gandalf and Aragorn return to Minas Tirith from the Field of Cormallen for the coronation ceremony:


Quote
"All things were now made ready in the City; and there was great concourse of people, for the tidings had gone out into all the parts of Gondor...and from Dol Amroth came the harpers that harped most skilfully in all the land; and there were players upon viols and upon flutes and upon horns of silver, and clear-voiced singers from the vales of Lebennin...

'Behold the King!'

And in that moment all the trumpets were blown, and the King Elessar went forth and came to the barrier, and Hurin of the Keys thrust it back; and amid the music of harp and of viol and of flute and the singing of clear voices the King passed through the flower-laden streets.
"



The sense I'm getting from the Lotronprime casting calls is that there, perhaps, might be a similar kind of festivity or grand celebration going on, which would warrant so many musicians being required in the background (and all the circus stuff too, like the need for "jugglers").

Although I must admit, the precise reason why one of the casting agencies is searching for, "4”6 to 4”11 (foot high) Musicians" in particular currently eludes me. Why must they be diminutive minstrels, harpists/ flute-players/violists, as opposed to tall ones? Are they 'performing' for the tall folk?


(This post was edited by Althoun on Oct 17 2019, 8:56pm)


Althoun
Lorien

Oct 17 2019, 10:02pm


Views: 1379
Also, the "main cast" thus far......

For whatever reason, Amazon evidently want lots and lots of extras with musical talent in this show (judging from the casting calls we've seen in public). Two of the three lead actors that have (reportedly) either been in talks for a role in the show or have actually been cast in it, are 'musicians'.

Maxim Baldry is in a band (guitarist but also sings) and Markella Kavenagh has a sound-cloud of her singing on her instagram. Whilst those are likely common pastimes among thespians and drama-school alumni, the fact the show is expressly on a search for musicians in New Zealand makes me wonder if there might be more to it.


(This post was edited by Althoun on Oct 17 2019, 10:04pm)


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan


Oct 17 2019, 10:53pm


Views: 1371
It's certainly intriguing!

I mean, I'm not complaining; I love music - but it definitely seems like a pattern is emerging.

"It is my duty to fight" - Mulan


Hasuwandil
Lorien


Oct 18 2019, 3:27pm


Views: 1261
Second Age Music

I'm not aware that Tolkien wrote any songs or poems specifically for his Second Age material, although some of the songs and poems in his novels might possibly have been passed down from the Second Age, and some (e.g. "The Fall of Gil-galad") are certainly about the Second Age. It would make sense for Amazon to include music and song in the series, and not just background soundtrack music.

One thing I really liked about The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey was the a capella rendition of "Far Over the Misty Mountains Cold". However, I will always picture the scene more the the Hildebrandt brothers' painting:

An Unexpected Party

I hope the Dwarves in the Amazon series look more like that than the ones in the movies.

Hêlâ Auriwandil, angilô berhtost,
oƀar Middangard mannum gisandid!


Althoun
Lorien

Oct 18 2019, 5:12pm


Views: 1227
Another BGT casting call, by video...

Hardly any views on this one (and the woman seems a little bit cookie) but she is actually pretty explanatory as to what Amazon are looking for, much more specific than previous ones:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGnL_HtBsWo

There were some questions over just what the casting calls meant by "Eurasian".

The video above clarifies with a list of countries: "Southeast Asia - Thai, Vietnamese, Malaysian, Mongolian, Nepalese & Maori looks". She says, moreover, if "you are really short and little" as well as being 'Eurasian', then that would be good (????).

This immediately makes me think of the inland sea of Rhûn (Easterlings, Wainriders, Balchoth) and maybe a plot involving Sauron in the East before he relocates to Mordor, or Khamul the Easterling who becomes one of the Nine Ring-wraiths.

There was also a Reddit leak a few weeks ago involving Irish actors in an audition, who were encouraged to act like "furious Celts" (really play up and emphasise their Irish accents) in a scenario whereby they had to pretend to be protecting women and children.

This video asks for Irish with red hair and freckles to "get in there quick". She adopts a phoney Irish accent and keeps it up for a while. But she actually asks for both "short" and "tall" red-heads ("all ages, shapes and sizes").

Also white hair is really emphasised and request for ethereal, androgynous people - with David Bowie used as an example.

Again, Latinos/Hispanic looks are really sought after - "lovely olive skin, mountain people, dark hair, dark eyebrows" and the countries listed are: Argentinian, Mexican, Spanish, Guatemalan. This one - I'm not sure but the new guy Maxim Baldry (even though he's of part Russian/Polish extraction) has that kind of very tanned, olive-looking skin.


(This post was edited by Althoun on Oct 18 2019, 5:20pm)


kzer_za
Lorien

Oct 18 2019, 6:07pm


Views: 1188
Could the short Eurasians be Druedain? //

 


uncle Iorlas
Lorien


Oct 18 2019, 6:18pm


Views: 1185
innnnnnteresting

Easterlings seem the obvious disposition for a crowd of Asian extras, unless they decide to play Umbar that way or some such thing.

As for the redheaded Celts, that could fall a number of ways, but I find myself imagining that maybe these are the continental humans that the Numenoreans casually occupy for lumber and such.


The Dude
Bree

Oct 18 2019, 6:26pm


Views: 1183
Little bit cookie, indeed.

The video looks and feels like an odd mix between a learning video for very young children and a mental breakdown vlog. The lines ("really, really short, ti-, TINY people...") combined with the hand gestures - pure comedy gold.

There is second video on the same page (with, alas, a slightly less comedic presenter) that explicitly states that they are scouting "for the upcoming Amazon original series based on the Lord of the Rings".

I have never heard the term "Eurasian" used as a catch-all term for (some) South-East Asian ethnicities, Mongolians, Nepalis and Māori. Is there something I do not know about Kiwi terminology? Usually, the term "Eurasian" is either used to refer to minorities with a mixed European-(East) Asian background (in a mostly Western context) or to refer to indigenous ethnic groups in Western Central Asia. I looked up the 2018 census for New Zealand and it seems that there are somewhat sizable groups of people living in the country that were born in Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, and (to a lesser extent) in Nepal. But there also plenty of people living in New Zealand who hailed from Cambodia, the Philippines, Indonesia, and on the other hand, north-eastern Asia. In other words, I still do not have a clue what the term "Eurasian" means in this particular context.

Also, I might be able to understand how the words "Latinos" (the Americanism though...) and "olive skin" could be associated with each other, but how does this lead us to "mountain people"? ^^ Again, comedy gold.


kzer_za
Lorien

Oct 18 2019, 6:29pm


Views: 1179
Easterlings aren't noted for their dimunitive height

The video says that they want people around 4'6 from the Eurasians. Indeed, I doubt people that tiny would have caused Gondor as much trouble as they did. I think Druedain is more likely. Or perhaps they will have Southeast Asians playing both, who knows.


(This post was edited by kzer_za on Oct 18 2019, 6:33pm)


Althoun
Lorien

Oct 18 2019, 6:32pm


Views: 1177
The latter theory...


In Reply To
Easterlings seem the obvious disposition for a crowd of Asian extras, unless they decide to play Umbar that way or some such thing.

As for the redheaded Celts, that could fall a number of ways, but I find myself imagining that maybe these are the continental humans that the Numenoreans casually occupy for lumber and such.


About the Celts maybe being the native men of Minhiriath and Enedwaith, that's personally what I think as well.

The audition scenario - with redhead Irish Celts defending women and children from basket-ball player-sized folk - seemed to hint at a colonial situation, akin to this from Tal-Elmar in HoME:


Quote
And the High Men of the Sea (Númenóreans). These indeed we may dread as Death...But hither they have not come since my father's days, and then only to raid and catch men and depart...

In greater numbers they come then: two ships or more together, stuffed with men and not goods, and ever one of the accursed ships hath black wings. For that is the Ship of the Dark, and in it they bear away evil booty, captives packed like beasts, the fairest women and children, or young men unblemished, and that is their end.


Because they are in northwest Middle-earth, Eriador, I would expect these particular natives to be white - so Irish seem like a pretty good fit (like Romans occupying celtic Britain, or the English imperialism in Ireland).

There are no red-haired Númenóreans that I know of (Hadorians are generally blond, Beorians and Haledin are dark-haired), so the red hair, short stature and freckles would distinguish them from the Men and Women of Westernesse.

Others suggested it might be Dwarves and Orcs, which I guess is also a possibility.

In terms of the Southeast Asian extras, Easterlings are the only thing that come to mind for me.


(This post was edited by Althoun on Oct 18 2019, 6:41pm)


Althoun
Lorien

Oct 18 2019, 6:38pm


Views: 2470
That's a good point...


In Reply To
The video says that they want people around 4'6 from the Eurasians. Indeed, I doubt people that tiny would have caused Gondor as much trouble as they did. I think Druedain is more likely. Or perhaps they will have Southeast Asians playing both, who knows.


She definitely did say small Eurasians at one point, but I think they might be a subset of the wider Eurasian population they are seeking (others would be normal height?).

Also, if they are scale-doubles - normal-sized people would look smaller to a Númenórean.

Drúedain is a possibility though - we aren't given skin colour for them by Tolkien, so they could really be caucasian or dark-skinned or anything. If my memory recalls, Jackson had at one point decided to use a Maori actor for Ghan-buri-ghan but then omitted the character entirely (perhaps due to justified and understandable sensitivities around the 'noble savage' thing).

Second Age Drúedain would be more viable, I think, in that the ones in Númenor would be integrated within Númenórean society (Aldarion's household is described as containing Drúedain), which would avoid the tropes of them being 'native' wild men of the woods (as they are later reduced to again under persecution from their former compatriots once the imperialist era sets in, leading them to flee to Ras Morthil).


(This post was edited by Althoun on Oct 18 2019, 6:40pm)


Althoun
Lorien

Oct 18 2019, 6:54pm


Views: 2465
Mad as a hatter...


In Reply To
The video looks and feels like an odd mix between a learning video for very young children and a mental breakdown vlog. The lines ("really, really short, ti-, TINY people...") combined with the hand gestures - pure comedy gold.



I know, it was......unforgettable once you've seen it, to put it delicately. Poor dear.


Quote
There is second video on the same page (with, alas, a slightly less comedic presenter) that explicitly states that they are scouting "for the upcoming Amazon original series based on the Lord of the Rings".


Yup, I've seen that one - the common details make clear that this one is also for the LotR series.


Quote
I have never heard the term "Eurasian" used as a catch-all term for (some) South-East Asian ethnicities, Mongolians, Nepalis and Māori. Is there something I do not know about Kiwi terminology? Usually, the term "Eurasian" is either used to refer to minorities with a mixed European-(East) Asian background (in a mostly Western context) or to refer to indigenous ethnic groups in Western Central Asia.


Those are the two usages that I am personally familiar with. I assumed the difference was down to some Kiwi neologism or ethnic categorisation.


Quote
I looked up the 2018 census for New Zealand and it seems that there are somewhat sizable groups of people living in the country that were born in Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, and (to a lesser extent) in Nepal. But there also plenty of people living in New Zealand who hailed from Cambodia, the Philippines, Indonesia, and on the other hand, north-eastern Asia. In other words, I still do not have a clue what the term "Eurasian" means in this particular context.


Beats me but this video (which had an official set of photos of the desired 'looks') does seem to narrow down their meaning.


Quote
Also, I might be able to understand how the words "Latinos" (the Americanism though...) and "olive skin" could be associated with each other, but how does this lead us to "mountain people"? ^^ Again, comedy gold.


Agreed, 'mountain people' seems pretty random - I can only imagine this might be a reference to people from the Andes?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andean_culture


Quote
Andean culture is a collective term used to refer to the indigenous peoples of the Andes mountains especially those that came under the influence of the Inca Empire. Cultures considered Andean include:

Atacama people
Aymara people
Muisca people or Chibcha
Andean civilizations
Quechua people
Uru people
This term is also used to describe the Hispanic based cultures of the Andes, which through the interaction of the Spaniards with the Andean Natives formed into a distinct group of cultures incorporating both Hispanic and Indigenous cultural traits



(This post was edited by Althoun on Oct 18 2019, 6:55pm)


fantasywind
Bree

Oct 20 2019, 10:23am


Views: 2331
Appearance specifics


In Reply To
The video says that they want people around 4'6 from the Eurasians. Indeed, I doubt people that tiny would have caused Gondor as much trouble as they did. I think Druedain is more likely. Or perhaps they will have Southeast Asians playing both, who knows.


It should be noted that the only Easterlings whose physical description we are given are those of the First Age, Easterlings arriving in Beleriand:


Quote
"These Men were short and broad, long and strong in the arm; their skins were swart or sallow, and their hair was dark as were their eyes."

The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Ch 18, Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin


Plus the description of an unknown tribe of Eastern people first seen fighting on Pelennor, resembling Dwarves (if those were not really some dwarven mercenaries of the four eastern clans ;)).


Quote
... countless companies of Men of a new sort.... Not tall, but broad and grim, bearded like dwarves, wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come....

The Return of the King, LoTR Book 5, Ch 4, The Siege of Gondor


Where they did get that eastern/south asian looks, I have no idea. I'm actually quite surprised by that, since Easterlings play barely a role in Second Age stories, the only major involvements are Easterling invasion on Rhovanion against Longbeards and Edain alliance (mentioned in Peoples of Middle-earth, Of Dwarves and Men) during War of the Elves and Sauron and War of the Last Alliance in general reference to servants of Sauron:


Quote
"And Sauron gathered to him great strength of his servants out of the east and the south; and among them were not a few of the high race of Númenor. For in the days of the sojourn of Sauron in that land the hearts of well nigh all its people had been turned towards darkness. Therefore many of those who sailed east in that time and made fortresses and dwellings upon the coasts were already bent to his will, and they served him still gladly in Middle-earth. But because of the power of Gil-galad these renegades, lords both mighty and evil, for the most part took up their abodes in the southlands far away; yet two there were, Herumor and Fuinur, who rose to power among the Haradrim, a great and cruel people that dwelt in the wide lands south of Mordor beyond the mouths of Anduin." The Silmarillon, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age


And that's it, but of course for all we know the lore will be thrown out the window :). I would say Haradrim would be more important overall, because, Umbar, shores of Harad and colonies of Numenor in that area could play some role (at least one canon character like Ar-Pharazon or Aldarion gets to move around in the areas of the south, Aldarion along the coasts, Ar-Pharazon wages wars on the shores, also lands at Umbar and marches north against Sauron, Herumor and Fuinur could be shown as leaders of the Haradrim if the story would take place around the time of the Last Alliance). Easterlings in comparison are barely a footnote.


Solicitr
Gondor

Oct 20 2019, 2:09pm


Views: 2322
Well,

This could be PJ influence, since in his movies the Oliphaunt riders had a Pacific Islander look and the Haradrim at the Black Gate were vaguely Asian in their equipment.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 20 2019, 7:20pm


Views: 2309
Haradrim at the Black Gate?


In Reply To
This could be PJ influence, since in his movies the Oliphaunt riders had a Pacific Islander look and the Haradrim at the Black Gate were vaguely Asian in their equipment.


Do you mean in the scene where Frodo, Sam and Gollum approach the Black Gate? Because I have always assumed those Men in the film to be Easterlings of a people from the uttermost east of Rhûn. In fact, they are identified as Easterlings in Chris Smith's The Lord of the Rings: Weapons and Warfare.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 20 2019, 7:25pm)


Solicitr
Gondor

Oct 20 2019, 7:22pm


Views: 2308
I read them

as marching eastward to the Gate having come up the Harad Road through Ithilien.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 20 2019, 7:28pm


Views: 2302
Easterlings

Not only are those soldiers identified as Easterlings in Chris Smith's book, but their weapons and armor have a distinctly Asian flavor. Besides, if they had come by the Harad Road, they most likely would have entered Mordor at Minas Morgul.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 20 2019, 7:32pm)


Solicitr
Gondor

Oct 20 2019, 9:31pm


Views: 2295
In

the text,

Quote
"...Smeagol thinks they have come out of the South beyond the Great River's end: they came up that road. They have passed on to the Black Gate, but more may follow"


Note also that the spot where Faramir's company ambushed the Haradrim was well north of the Morgul road as well. Why these troops used the Morannon is unclear; but it probably is simply that the Morgul Pass was wider and flatter than Cirith Ungol but still too narrow and steep to move significant bodies of troops through. The Witch-King's army didn't come through the pass when the signal went up; it was already inside Morgul, on the west side of the mountains.


(This post was edited by Solicitr on Oct 20 2019, 9:33pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 21 2019, 2:21am


Views: 2262
Book vs. Film


In Reply To
[In] the text,

Quote
"...Smeagol thinks they have come out of the South beyond the Great River's end: they came up that road. They have passed on to the Black Gate, but more may follow"


Note also that the spot where Faramir's company ambushed the Haradrim was well north of the Morgul road as well. Why these troops used the Morannon is unclear; but it probably is simply that the Morgul Pass was wider and flatter than Cirith Ungol but still too narrow and steep to move significant bodies of troops through. The Witch-King's army didn't come through the pass when the signal went up; it was already inside Morgul, on the west side of the mountains.


I'm sure that you are right about the text, although it would still make more sense for Haradrim to enter Mordor through Minas Morgul (unless they were not just arriving from afar, but returning from a mission). However, Peter Jackson made the soldiers that Frodo, Sam & Gollum encountered at the Gate into Easterlings whether or not that was Tolkien's intent.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 21 2019, 2:25am)


fantasywind
Bree

Oct 26 2019, 11:46am


Views: 2198
Book version-soldiers arrival


In Reply To
the text,

Quote
"...Smeagol thinks they have come out of the South beyond the Great River's end: they came up that road. They have passed on to the Black Gate, but more may follow"

Note also that the spot where Faramir's company ambushed the Haradrim was well north of the Morgul road as well. Why these troops used the Morannon is unclear; but it probably is simply that the Morgul Pass was wider and flatter than Cirith Ungol but still too narrow and steep to move significant bodies of troops through. The Witch-King's army didn't come through the pass when the signal went up; it was already inside Morgul, on the west side of the mountains.


There are BOTH Easterlings and Haradrim arriving up there, when Frodo, Sam and Gollum arrive at Morannon they clearly see Easterlings:


Quote
Beneath the hills on either side the rock was bored into a hundred caves and maggot-holes: there a host of orcs lurked, ready at a signal to issue forth like black ants going to war. None could pass the Teeth of Mordor and not feel their bite, unless they were summoned by Sauron, or knew the secret passwords that would open the Morannon, the black gate of his land.

The two hobbits gazed at the towers and the wall in despair. Even from a distance they could see in the dim light the movement of the black guards upon the wall, and the patrols before the gate. They lay now peering over the edge of a rocky hollow beneath the out-stretched shadow of the northmost buttress of Ephel Dúath. Winging the heavy air in a straight flight a crow, maybe, would have flown but a furlong from their hiding-place to the black summit of the nearer tower. A faint smoke curled above it, as if fire smouldered in the hill beneath.

Day came, and the fallow sun blinked over the lifeless ridges of Ered Lithui. Then suddenly the cry of brazen-throated trumpets was heard: from the watch-towers they blared, and far away from hidden holds and outposts in the hills came answering calls; and further still, remote but deep and ominous, there echoed in the hollow land beyond the mighty horns and drums of Barad-dûr. Another dreadful day of fear and toil had come to Mordor; and the night-guards were summoned to their dungeons and deep halls, and the day-guards, evil-eyed and fell, were marching to their posts. Steel gleamed dimly on the battlement.
...
As he gazed Frodo became aware that there was a great stir and movement on the plain. It seemed as if whole armies were on the march, though for the most part they were hidden by the reeks and fumes drifting from the fens and wastes beyond. But here and there he caught the gleam of spears and helmets; and over the levels beside the roads horsemen could be seen riding in many companies. He remembered his vision from afar upon Amon Hen, so few days before, though now it seemed many years ago. Then he knew that the hope that had for one wild moment stirred in his heart was vain. The trumpets had not rung in challenge but in greeting. This was no assault upon the Dark Lord by the men of Gondor, risen like avenging ghosts from the graves of valour long passed away. These were Men of other race, out of the wide Eastlands, gathering to the summons of their Overlord; armies that had encamped before his Gate by night and now marched in to swell his mounting power. As if suddenly made fully aware of the peril of their position, alone, in the growing light of day, so near to this vast menace, Frodo quickly drew his frail grey hood close upon his head, and stepped down into the dell. Then he turned to Gollum."


They see Haradrim when they travel further south of Morannon into North Ithillien:


Quote
. It leaped into all their minds that the Black Wings had spied them and had sent armed soldiers to seize them: no speed seemed too great for these terrible servants of Sauron. They crouched, listening. The voices and the clink of weapons and harness were very close. Frodo and Sam loosened their small swords in their sheaths. Flight was impossible.

Gollum rose slowly and crawled insect-like to the lip of the hollow. Very cautiously he raised himself inch by inch, until he could peer over it between two broken points of stone. He remained there without moving for some time, making no sound. Presently the voices began to recede again, and then they slowly faded away. Far off a horn blew on the ramparts of the Morannon. Then quietly Gollum drew back and slipped down into the hollow.

'More Men going to Mordor,' he said in a low voice. `Dark faces. We have not seen Men like these before, no, Sméagol has not. They are fierce. They have black eyes, and long black hair, and gold rings in their ears; yes, lots of beautiful gold. And some have red paint on their cheeks, and red cloaks; and their flags are red, and the tips of their spears; and they have round shields, yellow and black with big spikes. Not nice; very cruel wicked Men they look. Almost as bad as Orcs, and much bigger. Sméagol thinks they have come out of the South beyond the Great River's end: they came up that road. They have passed on to the Black Gate; but more may follow. Always more people coming to Mordor. One day all the peoples will be inside.'

`Were there any oliphaunts?' asked Sam, forgetting his fear in his eagerness for news of strange places.


So clearly two groups arrive, the second they encounter in the same chapter some time later. The Easterlings are also noted in earlier parts (like in the vision of Frodo at Amon Hen to have also chariots for chieftains and 'laden wains').


fantasywind
Bree

Oct 26 2019, 12:19pm


Views: 2198
Morevoer...

As to why both the groups go specifically towards Black Gate, it's simple because there is good road approach, old numenorean roads connect before Moannon, one eastern road (a portion of it build north of Ered Lithui leading east, never finished but which nonetheless helps eastern invading armies in earlier centuries, mentioned in UT in regards to wars with Wainriders near thousand years earlier: "The road through Ithilien was still in full repair as far as the Morannon; and there it met a road going north towards the Dagorlad, and another going east along the line of Ered Lithui. [Neither of these roads is marked on the maps to the Lord of the Rings.] The eastward road extended to a point north of the site of Barad-dûr; it had never been completed further, and what had been made was now long neglected. Nonetheless its first fifty miles, which had once been fully constructed, greatly speeded the Wainriders' approach.") and southern one coming through Ithilien lead to Morannon, the Black Gate is also major entrance to the Black Land, one of the few places where huge armies can cross and move easily from and to Mordor. Minas Morgul may be less useful for mortal men because it's mentioned that:

"..because of the evil that dwelt in the valley, where the minds of living men would turn to madness and horror...."

Morgul Vale is very inhospitable for mortals, it would certainly affect Sauron's human allies and servants, probably except some few who would not give in to terror. Or maybe simply because that's the order they received, Sauron was marshaling armies in two places in Udun enclosed by Morannon and Minas Morgul under command of Nazgul, plus the last reinforcements coming from the south and the fleets send by sea. Gollum talks a bit about it, and since our dear Smeagol has surprisingly deep knowledge we may believe him I think:


Quote
"`O no, not empty! ' whispered Gollum. `It seems empty, but it isn't, O no! Very dreadful things live there. Orcs. yes always Orcs; but worse things, worse things live there too. The road climbs right under the shadow of the walls and passes the gate. Nothing moves on the road that they don't know about. The things inside know: the Silent Watchers.'

`So that's your advice is it,' said Sam, 'that we should go another long march south, to find ourselves in the same fix or a worse one, when we get there, if we ever do? '

`No, no indeed,' said Gollum. `Hobbits must see, must try to understand. He does not expect attack that way. His Eye is all round, but it attends more to some places than to others. He can't see everything all at once, not yet. You see, He has conquered all the country west of the Shadowy Mountains down to the River, and He holds the bridges now. He thinks no one can come to the Moontower without fighting big battle at the bridges, or getting lots of boats which they cannot hide and He will know about.'

'You seem to know a lot about what He's doing and thinking,' said Sam. `Have you been talking to Him lately? Or just hobnobbing with Orcs? '

'Not nice hobbit, not sensible,' said Gollum, giving Sam an angry glance and turning to Frodo. 'Sméagol has talked to Orcs, yes of course, before he met master, and to many peoples: he has walked very far. And what he says now many peoples are saying. It's here in the North that the big danger is for Him, and for us. He will come out of the Black Gate one day, one day soon. That is the only way big armies can come. But away down west He is not afraid, and there are the Silent Watchers.'"


Morgul Host was composed mostly of Orcs as they are less likely to break living in that 'dead city', more used to it's 'supernatural aura of horror'. Besides Minas Morgul might have been already full :).


Quote
And out of the gate an army came.

All that host was clad in sable, dark as the night. Against the wan walls and the luminous pavement of the road Frodo could see them, small black figures in rank upon rank, marching swiftly and silently, passing outwards in an endless stream. Before them went a great cavalry of horsemen moving like ordered shadows, and at their head was one greater than all the rest: a Rider, all black, save that on his hooded head he had a helm like a crown that flickered with a perilous light. Now he was drawing near the bridge below, and Frodo's staring eyes followed him, unable to wink or to withdraw. Surely there was the Lord of the Nine Riders returned to earth to lead his ghastly host to battle? Here, yes here indeed was the haggard king whose cold hand had smitten down the Ring-bearer with his deadly knife. The old wound throbbed with pain and a great chill spread towards Frodo's heart.
...
At that moment the Wraith-king turned and spurred his horse and rode across the bridge, and all his dark host followed him. Maybe the elven-hoods defied his unseen eyes, and the mind of his small enemy; being strengthened, had turned aside his thought. But he was in haste. Already the hour had struck, and at his great Master's bidding he must march with war into the West.

Soon he had passed, like a shadow into shadow, down the winding road, and behind him still the black ranks crossed the bridge. So great an army had never issued from that vale since the days of Isildur's might; no host so fell and strong in arms had yet assailed the fords of Anduin; and yet it was but one and not the greatest of the hosts that Mordor now sent forth.

Frodo stirred. And suddenly his heart went out to Faramir. 'The storm has burst at last,' he thought. `This great array of spears and swords is going to Osgiliath. Will Faramir get across in time? He guessed it, but did he know the hour? And who can now hold the fords when the King of the Nine Riders comes? And other armies will come. I am too late. All is lost. I tarried on the way. All is lost. Even if my errand is performed, no one will ever know. There will be no one I can tell. It will be in vain.' Overcome with weakness he wept. And still the host of Morgul crossed the bridge.

Then at a great distance..., he heard Sam's voice speaking. 'Wake up, Mr. Frodo!'....

There was a dull clang. The gates of Minas Morgul had closed. The last rank of spears had vanished down the road....

'Wake up, Mr. Frodo! They're gone, and we'd better go too.'


It took some time before the whole army marched out, Frodo managed to take a nap in the meantime :). Anyway that's as far as the source material says about military movements of various troops.


Althoun
Lorien

Nov 7 2019, 12:38pm


Views: 2041
She's back......


In Reply To
The video looks and feels like an odd mix between a learning video for very young children and a mental breakdown vlog. The lines ("really, really short, ti-, TINY people...") combined with the hand gestures - pure comedy gold.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3JzQN2BkSk

A new casting call video from BGT:

"AMAZON ORIGINAL SERIES BASED ON LORD OF THE RINGS - If you know any adult aged 16 years and over who is based anywhere in New Zealand and is super little - so 4 foot 5 foot to 4 foot 6 (we could go up to 4 foot 9 tops!) please get them to call Evelina Gailer"


(This post was edited by Althoun on Nov 7 2019, 12:43pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 7 2019, 3:34pm


Views: 2020
Scale-doubles and/or Dwarves?

Ideally, much over 4 feet would be too tall for Hobbits (which shouldn't appear in the Second Age anyway), so this leads me to think that Amazon is looking for either scale-doubles or casting Dwarves.

#FidelityToTolkien

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 7 2019, 3:37pm)


Mari D.
Rivendell


Dec 7 2019, 11:46pm


Views: 473
Another call

...
not sure if this was posted before:
https://m.facebook.com/...13&__tn__=%2B%3E

And if you click one to the left there is another one presumably for Elves :).
Found link in the reddit sub.