The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Middle-earth TV Series Discussion:
Elros' ears and other problems



Hasuwandil
Rivendell


Sep 8, 4:34am


Views: 1513
Elros' ears and other problems

In addition to the problem of coming up with new material that seems congruous with the material Tolkien has already written, another problem facing the writers is how to tie up loose ends left by Tolkien. One that I've already noted is the date of the Númenóreans' arrival to relieve the Elvish forces during the War of the Elves and Sauron. This is said to have happened in 1700, and the fleet was said to have been sent by King Tar-Minastir. However, it is also said that his predecessor, Queen Tar-Telperiën, was an isolationist who refused to give up the Sceptre until her death in 1731. So, assuming the writers tell this story, either Tar-Telperiën has to die earlier, or the war has to end (and perhaps begin) later, or Minastir has to obtain permission from Queen Tar-Telperiën to send the fleet, or he has to send it without her permission, and possibly without her knowledge.

Another issue is Elros' ears. Of course, this isn't a problem if we insist that Tolkien's Elves (and the Half-Elven) don't have pointed ears. I'd rather not get too deep into that discussion here. Whatever Tolkien's intention may have been, I would say most people think of Elves as having pointed ears, and Tolkien's Elves, when depicted in a visual medium, are typically depicted with pointed ears, probably in part because it helps distinguish them from Men. Also, it appears Amazon wants to follow in Peter Jackson's footsteps, visually, at least. So, if Amazon wants to depict Elros, they need to decide whether to depict him as having pointed ears or not. Given that he's Half-Elven, and Elrond's identical twin, it makes sense that he would have pointed ears. But he also chose to be a Man. So do his ears lose their pointiness when he becomes a mortal Man, or do they retain their pointiness, but the trait disappears as his descendants intermarry with other Men, who presumably do not have pointy ears? The latter makes the most sense to me.

What other problems has Tolkien left for Amazon's creative team to tackle?

Hêlâ Aurwandil, angilô berhtost,
oƀar Middangard mannum gisandid!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 8, 6:37am


Views: 1364
Challenges


In Reply To
In addition to the problem of coming up with new material that seems congruous with the material Tolkien has already written, another problem facing the writers is how to tie up loose ends left by Tolkien. One that I've already noted is the date of the Númenóreans' arrival to relieve the Elvish forces during the War of the Elves and Sauron. This is said to have happened in 1700, and the fleet was said to have been sent by King Tar-Minastir. However, it is also said that his predecessor, Queen Tar-Telperiën, was an isolationist who refused to give up the Sceptre until her death in 1731. So, assuming the writers tell this story, either Tar-Telperiën has to die earlier, or the war has to end (and perhaps begin) later, or Minastir has to obtain permission from Queen Tar-Telperiën to send the fleet, or he has to send it without her permission, and possibly without her knowledge.


This need not be seen as an inconsistency. In fact, you've already suggested the most logical solution: Minastir convinces his aunt Queen Tar-Telperiën that it is in the best interests of Númenor to come to the aid of the Elves of Lindon. I think it would raise too many hackles if he sailed a force to Middle-earth against the queen's wishes or without her knowledge. I also don't see any need to alter the timeline.


In Reply To
Another issue is Elros' ears. Of course, this isn't a problem if we insist that Tolkien's Elves (and the Half-Elven) don't have pointed ears. I'd rather not get too deep into that discussion here. Whatever Tolkien's intention may have been, I would say most people think of Elves as having pointed ears, and Tolkien's Elves, when depicted in a visual medium, are typically depicted with pointed ears, probably in part because it helps distinguish them from Men. Also, it appears Amazon wants to follow in Peter Jackson's footsteps, visually, at least. So, if Amazon wants to depict Elros, they need to decide whether to depict him as having pointed ears or not. Given that he's Half-Elven, and Elrond's identical twin, it makes sense that he would have pointed ears. But he also chose to be a Man. So do his ears lose their pointiness when he becomes a mortal Man, or do they retain their pointiness, but the trait disappears as his descendants intermarry with other Men, who presumably do not have pointy ears? The latter makes the most sense to me.

What other problems has Tolkien left for Amazon's creative team to tackle?


I don't think that Elros' physical appearance would have altered when he gained mortality. The trait of pointed ears might have been lost, though, in succeeding generations. I can't think of any other major issues that haven't already been brought up in previous discussions.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 8, 6:37am)


fantasywind
The Shire

Sep 8, 7:33am


Views: 1354
Lore 'disrepancies' and adaptation

It all depends on which events they would want to focus, but in my opinion, it would be possible to make quite faithful adaptation on Tolkien material and yet avoid various pitfalls in form of conflicting versions. One primary example, the UT section dealing with origin of Elessar, the green jewel, there are various versions of it's origin conflicting with each other and one contains a memorable conversation of Galadriel and Celebrimbor (in general History of Celeborn and Galadriel contains conflicting verisons, but First Age stuff is already off-limits so the events before would not need to be addressed much), the conversation of those two is a wonderful piece of Tolkien written dialogue, and in a show which bases on text with not nearly enough dialogue for such a show, they would do better to use this properly. It's also beneficial from storytelling perspective. That conversation is also the one reference in which it's said that Celebrimbor was in unrequitted love with Galadriel (who was already married to Celeborn and had a daughter). Elessar the stone is less important, as it never appeared in movies before in any case (while Lotr book has it even if unexplained origin). It would be better for dramatic purposes, adding some emotional conflict in the show with Celebrimbor of sorts.

Other things such as Amdir also being called Malgalad in another text and Amdir said to be father of Amroth (while in some version he was supposed to be son of Celeborn and Galadriel) could also be easily resolved, either choosing one over other name or using both. Also Amroth connection to Galadriel could be explained, as being a friend who visited Eregion (Galadriel is said to have taken interest in Lorinand realm, and later travelled there through Moria with her daughter and Amroth as Unfinished Tales tell us, Celeborn stayed behind).

The Tar-Minastir and Tar-Telperien situation could be actually very well devised as you said, show the Minastir convincing the queen to intervene (as Minastir is all credited for it) and show this through fleshing out/inventing a scene in which in the court of Numenor messanger of Gil-galad arrives (as UT say, he send messages to Numenor for help when Sauron invaded, Elrond and Celeborn were fighting losing battle against Sauron's troops), and political debate happens after all Minastir as heir would sit in the Council of Sceptre) then have use of the character, admiral Ciryatur (the one who commanded the navy send to Middle-earth to help in the war) to be interacting with various elven characters throughout the war. Great battle of Gwathlo in which numenorean expedition succeeds in defeating Sauron would be highly cinematic moment, a massive War of the Elves and Sauron in overall would be amazing to put on screen, and UT give proper account of the events, down to the movements of troops and tactical decisions. Elrond and Celeborn and Gil-galad take very active part in it so it would beg to focus on them in the show over that course of events.

Of course in the end it all, again comes down to specific texts they will be able to use (it would seem that UT is largely responsible for the existence of the last map Amazon posted, Numenor map and the information on forests of the Enedwaith and Minhiriath are all there which indicates licensing rights allow for that), rest of the material is rather straightforward. The 'original inventions' are of course the problem then, which things will fit, but I guess Tolkien Estate veto right and presence of Shippey could alleviate such problems. I'm hoping they won't start suddenly making an awful lot of changes like PJ did to Hobbit, those went way too far for me.

Some things, as I said, would be based on canon but would have to be 'fleshed out' meaning Amazon writers would have to add detail to it (and for example that would be depicting Aldarion's meeting with Galadriel and Celeborn, mentioned in Mariner's Wife, that is if they will adapt this narrative at all, which I would beg them to do actually, it's the fullest narrative they can hope for, full of characters, character archs and dialogues all set out by Tolkien, we don't know what they talked about in this meeting, we only know that Aldarion went up river Gwathlo and somewhere near Tharbad had a meeting with them, as they lived in Eregion close by, here Amazon team would invent the dialogue from scratch).

Elros as a whole is for storytelling purposes less suitable character to appear for extended period of time, as Elros basically did nothing of note once he became king. I would say, again, that the best approach would be to adapt Mariner's Wife and in the same time show things happening around in Eregion, long before Sauron arrives there in fair form, showing the set-up so to speak, the family drama in Numenor could go on with focus on Aldarion, and through him showing events in Middle-earth, his contacts with Gil-galad, building first outpost the Vinyalonde, meeting with Galadriel and Celeborn when he sailed up river Gwathlo, (Aldarion's daughter Ancalime was alive and was queen during the time when Sauron personally arrived in Eregion in the years 1200 SA) the next thing would be Sauron's stay at Eregion, teaching the Elves how to forge rings, with Galadriel and Celeborn, and Gil-galad highly suspicious about this nice cool fellow Annatar, this would be heavily focused on Celebrimbor story arch and then it would lead to war (in Numenor several new generations would pass, Tar-Telperien the queen, Minastir as young prince, admiral Ciryatur, when war erupts as Sauron invades Eriador, Celebrimbor is killed, Elrond and Celeborn fight his troops as related in UT sections, Gil-galad sends messages for help to Numenor), events such as founding of Numenor could be sort of told as a tale, passed down among generations, some background to give context for the story at hand.

I guess there could be some sort of prologue kind of thing like the one Galadriel does in Fellowship movie, a very brief explanation for what is Numenor, how this civilization came to be and it's connection to other things, a proper context for the 'why's and how's' of Second Age. Elros is quite historically important, even if the character itself would not suit well for the drama show as he was basically living in peace and prosperity after he became appointed king of Numenor, he is important not only because all kings of Numenor are from his line of descendants, but also because of the influence of his actions, he is the founder of Armenelos and 'citadel of Elros' (which is basically a key location not unlike Red Keep from Game of Thrones, the main seat of power for Numenor, we will probably see this citadel a lot).

Elros and his father Earendil, who is almost a 'messianic' figure of Middle-earth would be historical context for later events. Kings of Numenor prided themselves for being 'Earendil's heir'. About Earendil we hear back in Lotr (even the movies) with reference to Earendil star being most beloved by the Elves, so the cultural impact of this character in-universe is enormous and Elrond Half-elven is also son of Earendil. Some explanation on who he was (and so also his son Elros), a legendary hero in it's own setting would be nice, especially if the events leading to Downfall of Numenor will be shown with Amandil trying to do what Earendil did those thousands of years ago.


Solicitr
Rohan

Sep 9, 6:25pm


Views: 1150
Who

says Elrond and Elros were identical twins? Not Tolkien.


Hasuwandil
Rivendell


Sep 10, 2:52am


Views: 1104
Fraternal twins

I suppose it's possible Elrond and Elros were fraternal twins. If so, they should still have a family resemblance, but I suppose it's possible pointed ears may be a trait such as attached vs. detached earlobes, in which case it would be possible for Elrond to have pointed ears and for Elros not to have them. But then, one would expect pointed ears to appear among descendants of Elros from time to time. That said, I would expect Amazon to depict Elrond and Elros as identical twins, assuming they do decide to depict Elros, as I imagine it's cheaper to cast one actor to play both roles.

Hêlâ Aurwandil, angilô berhtost,
oƀar Middangard mannum gisandid!


Hasuwandil
Rivendell


Sep 10, 2:54am


Views: 1107
Additional problems

Another problem that has occurred to me: Did Sauron take the Ring with him to Númenor, or did he leave it behind when he was captured? Could he trust any of the Nazgûl to take care of his Ring for him while he was gone? If he took it with him, was Ar-Pharazôn aware of the Ring and its importance? Wouldn't he try to take the Ring away as one of the spoils of war? And even if Sauron did manage to keep the Ring a secret from the king, what happened to it (and his body) when Númenor was sunk? You'd think it would be harder to fish the Ring out of the ocean than out of the Anduin.

I have also thought of yet another problem, but it's probably more of a problem for Tolkien than for Amazon's creative team. Tolkien created the language Khuzdul for the Dwarves in his legendarium, but in The Hobbit, which was originally not part of his legendarium, Tolkien gave his Dwarves names in Old Norse, taken from the Dvergatal in the Völuspá. He also used English-sounding surnames for the few Hobbits in the story, and also used several other names or terms taken from Old English or Old Norse (e.g. Beorn, Warg, Mirkwood, Arkenstone). When he wrote Lord of the Rings, Tolkien used a number of modern English and Middle English names for additional Hobbit characters and placenames, as well as some Continental Germanic (particularly Frankish) names, such as Pippin and Fredegar, and a few Celtic names, such as Meriadoc and Bree, probably representing a Dunlending influence. He also used Old English for the names of the Éothéod from Frumgar on, Gothic for their ancestors, the Kings of Rhovanion, and an intermediate language for several progenitors of the Éothéod. In addition, he used Old English for the names of Gollum's folk, who lived in the Vales of Anduin, as did the Éothéod and Beorn. Finally, the Common Speech is generally represented by modern English. By this means Tolkien used real-world languages to represent many of the languages of the Third Age. And being familiar with those languages, it no doubt saved him much time from having to come up with many names and expressions in Khuzdul, Westron, Rohirric (not Old English), and the Hobbit's language.

However, there is one issue: In the real world, Old Norse is attested relatively late compared to some other Germanic languages. Gothic is the oldest Germanic language for which we have any substantial body of literature, and Tolkien's Kings of Rhovanion, whose names are Gothic, flourished in the 13th century of the Third Age. Dwarf names are in Khuzdul, but Dwarves kept their names and their language largely to themselves, and used names taken from the cultures among which they resided. We know of few Dwarves from the Second Age, but their names, Durin II, Durin III, Durin IV, Durin V, and Narvi, are all Old Norse. Thus we have Old Norse names existing throughout the Second Age (and well before: Durin I flourished during the Years of the Trees), well before the Gothic names of the Kings of Rhovanion appear towards the middle of the Third Age. Of course, this problem is mostly academic, and Amazon doesn't really need to address it. However, there is one practical issue: If they want to continue to take names from the Dvergatal, there is a limited number of names, and Tolkien has already used most of the best ones.

Hêlâ Aurwandil, angilô berhtost,
oƀar Middangard mannum gisandid!


Solicitr
Rohan

Sep 10, 3:30am


Views: 1100
Well,

the external explanation is simply that Tolkien at the time had no reason to think it would become a problem.. When he filched his Hobbit dwarf-names from Voluspa, he didn't care about continuity with The Silmarillion (note that First Age dwarf-names are not Norse, other than Durin who isn't actually named in the Silmarillion); and when he wrote the Moria chapters and sketched the west-gate his chronology hadn't yet expanded into anything like the vast span of years he would wind up with.

I wouldn't get especially worked up about chronology, especially since, while names like Durinn and Narfi certainly aren't attested that early, they could phonetically easily fit into Proto-Norse (which is attested, in Elder Futhark fragments, at least as early as Gothic and perhaps earlier). He was more concerned with the various Germanic languages' relative closeness to English (although I suspect he overestimated the average reader's capacity to find Anglo-Saxon "familiar"!)


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Sep 10, 4:43am


Views: 1100
Tolkien says that Sauron had the One Ring when Numenor was destroyed

In Letter 211, he states, "Sauron was first defeated by a ‘miracle’: a direct action of God the Creator, changing the fashion of the world, when appealed to by Manwë: see III p. 317. Though reduced to ‘a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind’, I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended." Presumably, if Sauron's spirit carried off the One Ring when his body was destroyed in the drowning of Numenor, he had in his possession when he was captured and brought to Numenor.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 10, 12:01pm


Views: 1060
Does that make it gospel? :)

O Faithful One,

Letter #211 (Oct 14 1958, to Rhona Beare, God rest her beautiful soul) was written under significant duress after a 2-week academic stint in Ireland in which he writes “I was involved in an alarming tempest at sea, and began to think I should suffer the fate of Lycidas King. I arrived 5 hours overdue in Dublin, rather battered; and… crossed [Ireland] about 6 times, read 130 lbs of theses, assisted in the exams of 4 colleges, and finally presided at fellowship-vivas in Dublin before re-embarking (doubled up with lumbago)”.

All the while he is stressfully responding to 2 letters sent to him in Cork regarding specific parameters of the presentation of the ‘Ancrene Wisse’, in which correspondent Robert Burchfield feels the need to apologize for troubling him; to which Tolkien of course responds (after his return), no trouble “to a friend after all, not a stranger; and if my pleasure in controversy led me into any intemperate expressions, forget them!”

Furthermore, writing to Burchfield, “My train broke down at Leamington, and I arrived home late to find it more or less in ruins. None of the time-schedules had been adhered to, and I came on a lot of unsupervised hobbits smoking in the garage, while the house had neither gas, water, cooking facilities or lavatories. Into this chaos my wife arrived two hours later. My whole attention is for the moment concentrated on ‘domestic affairs’; I have exhausted my vocabulary, and nearly fused the telephone-wires… [I’m] very tired, and my domestic affairs are in chaos”.

To this scenario, he gets a letter from the great, and overly-inquisitive, Rhona Beare (for an upcoming meeting), about that which he has definitely found Ireland a welcome escape - LOTR! For those that have ‘Letters’ you need only read the first paragraph of #211 to gather what I’ve already stated, but take particular note of this second paragraph: “In a momentary lull I will try and answer your questions briefly. I do not ‘know all the answers’. Much of my own book puzzles me; & in any case much of it was written so long ago (anything up to 20 years) that I read it now as if it were from a strange hand”.

Now please read that 2nd paragraph again.

The rest of the letter begins: “The use of O on II p.339 is an error. Mine in fact”. Goodness, Tolkien has erred. For the next question he admits another error: with Glorfindel’s horse, he states he used the term bridle-and-bit “casually and carelessly”, and “I will change ‘bridle and bit’ to ‘headstall’. 0 for 2. Bypassing for now Rhona’s floating Ring question, she then asks about the colours of the ‘other’ wizards, in which he claims no knowledge. But he had in fact already written about the Ithryn Luin (‘The Istari’ - UT). 0 for 3 (actually 4), then he draws the ridiculously large and conical representation of Gondor’s crown.

Which brings us back to his plea that we “need not boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring”. Need not boggle? Seriously? Boggling is what we do as Tolkien fans. It’s what he did all his life. He boggled at the lunar phases, the movements of the Nazgul, multiple versions of his stories, not to mention his languages! Need not boggle? Yes we boggle. Rhona Beare boggled. She was the master boggler, and put forth the questions that Tolkien was so hard-pressed to answer. And no, there’s no way Sauron had the Ring in Numenor. When his spirit drifted back to Middle-earth, “he took up again the great Ring and clothed himself in power" [‘Of the Rings of Power’]. Note, "again"!

The One Ring and the Foundations of Barad-dur were completed at the same time, with the same sorcery, and is where he kept it safe. He knew Numenor was a suicide mission. If his spirit was able to carry the Ring across the Sea from Numenor, it destroys the entire premise of the Third Age and the LOTR.

Please Amazon, pay no heed to Letter #211, and don’t bring the Ring to Numenor. Tolkien was exhausted, distracted, and probably hungover, responding to Rhona’s penetrating inquisition. As he said to Burchfield, about his ‘intemperate expressions’, “Forget them!”


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Sep 10, 2:24pm


Views: 1032
You're wrong!

Actually, you probably are right, but I just wanted to see if you are paying attention.

Boggling yours,
VtF

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Solicitr
Rohan

Sep 10, 4:20pm


Views: 1016
Tolkien

did nod, frequently, and I suspect you are right; but I'm not sure I would put quite so much weight on the word "again." It could be read as Sauron being once again able to wear the Ring once he had fashioned himself a new and dreadful physical body, his old one having been destroyed.

Would he have left his Soul Jar lying around, even in a treasury, for an ambitious Nazgul to take up? And would he have had the force of will and powers of persuasion necessary to gull the King of Men- the strongest-willed of them all - without the Ring's aid?


squire
Half-elven


Sep 11, 1:03am


Views: 958
Sauron corrupted Numenor before the Ring existed, so...

... the question of the Ring in Numenor is a classic retcon.

The fall of Numenor dates, as a myth in Tolkien's story-hoard, to the late 1930s, well before he'd ever thought of the Hobbit's invisibility ring as being the supreme power totem it eventually became. So Sauron in Numenor originally had no Ring, nor needed it, being after all Sauron, the master corrupter second only to the late Morgoth.

Skip ahead ten or so years. Lord of the Rings has been written, Bilbo's ring is now THE RING OF POWER, and the Numenor myth has been fully incorporated into a roughed-in 'Second Age' between the Silmarillion and the LotR. Sauron now has the Ring, willy-nilly.

Would he, in fact, have left it behind in Barad-dur when essaying the greatest corruption ever? As Tolkien worried it out, pace Dunadan N.A.'s account of emotional distress combined with sea-sickness, he concluded that it seemed more likely than not that Sauron must have brought the Ring with him.

And so the small, small problem of the Ring flying back to Mordor with him when he had been destroyed bodily. "One need not boggle", indeed! Of course we boggle. But Tolkien dug himself into this pit and was perfectly capable of digging himself out with a mere 'Let it be so.'

He's the author; it's his candy store; and notice he says in his letters that he doesn't even need to claim full responsibility for consistency and sense, because after all it had been a long time since he wrote this and that.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
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Hasuwandil
Rivendell


Sep 11, 5:31am


Views: 927
Dwarf names

It's been a while since I last read The Silmarillion, so I don't recall what any Dwarves were named.

A potential solution has occurred to me. The names "Durin" and "Narvi" are not necessarily the forms of the names they actually used during the Second Age, but rather the forms the names had at the time they were written down sometime in the latter Third Age or early Fourth Age, which is why they are identical to the forms the Dwarves were then using. The forms used in the Second Age would presumably have been in whatever language the people of Rhovanion were then using. Given that he'd already used Gothic for the Third Age, perhaps Tolkien would have used proto-Indo-European to represent the language of the Northmen in the Second Age.

Hêlâ Aurwandil, angilô berhtost,
oƀar Middangard mannum gisandid!


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 11, 12:25pm


Views: 916
Oh I sometimes pay attention :)

And greetings, I’ll post further on the topic this weekend, as squire and the Cloudy One raise some good points that I can’t resist responding to. One thing for all to consider in the meantime: The Rings were, for the most part, not ‘worn’ (with the exception of the Three for the 3rd Age). Sauron kept the Nine (and 3 of the Seven) locked away for a long time after taking them back from the Nazgûl, and once they were corrupted, there is little indication they were anything but loyal servants, to a fault, to Sauron.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Sep 11, 1:53pm


Views: 899
The Cloudy One!

You're a funny guy!

I look forward to reading your further thoughts.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan


Sep 11, 2:22pm


Views: 896
I agree with this

I personally believe the Ring was in Numenor with Sauron, and that it should be depicted as such in the Amazon series. It will allow us a chance to finally see how the incorporeal spirit of Sauron was able to carry the Ring with him back to Mordor - hopefully, Amazon's explanation boggles the mind as well.

"It is my duty to fight" - Mulan


Solicitr
Rohan

Sep 11, 2:33pm


Views: 888
Except


In Reply To
It's been a while since I last read The Silmarillion, so I don't recall what any Dwarves were named.

A potential solution has occurred to me. The names "Durin" and "Narvi" are not necessarily the forms of the names they actually used during the Second Age, but rather the forms the names had at the time they were written down sometime in the latter Third Age or early Fourth Age, which is why they are identical to the forms the Dwarves were then using. The forms used in the Second Age would presumably have been in whatever language the people of Rhovanion were then using. Given that he'd already used Gothic for the Third Age, perhaps Tolkien would have used proto-Indo-European to represent the language of the Northmen in the Second Age.


"Durin" and "Narvi" were written right there on the Gate by Celebrimbor in the Second Age. Tolkien even gives us the Tengwar/Sindarin "original," so it isn't just Gandalf's translation.

The reality of course is quandoque bonus dormitat Homerus. "Moria" inscribed on the gate, thousands of years before the Balrog? Facsimiles of Balin's tomb and the book of Mazarbul with Angerthas and Tengwar used for English?


(This post was edited by Solicitr on Sep 11, 2:39pm)


fantasywind
The Shire

Sep 11, 4:36pm


Views: 879
Ring in Numenor


In Reply To
O Faithful One,
Letter #211 (Oct 14 1958, to Rhona Beare, God rest her beautiful soul) was written under significant duress after a 2-week academic stint in Ireland in which he writes “I was involved in an alarming tempest at sea, and began to think I should suffer the fate of Lycidas King. I arrived 5 hours overdue in Dublin, rather battered; and… crossed [Ireland] about 6 times, read 130 lbs of theses, assisted in the exams of 4 colleges, and finally presided at fellowship-vivas in Dublin before re-embarking (doubled up with lumbago)”.
All the while he is stressfully responding to 2 letters sent to him in Cork regarding specific parameters of the presentation of the ‘Ancrene Wisse’, in which correspondent Robert Burchfield feels the need to apologize for troubling him; to which Tolkien of course responds (after his return), no trouble “to a friend after all, not a stranger; and if my pleasure in controversy led me into any intemperate expressions, forget them!”
Furthermore, writing to Burchfield, “My train broke down at Leamington, and I arrived home late to find it more or less in ruins. None of the time-schedules had been adhered to, and I came on a lot of unsupervised hobbits smoking in the garage, while the house had neither gas, water, cooking facilities or lavatories. Into this chaos my wife arrived two hours later. My whole attention is for the moment concentrated on ‘domestic affairs’; I have exhausted my vocabulary, and nearly fused the telephone-wires… [I’m] very tired, and my domestic affairs are in chaos”.
To this scenario, he gets a letter from the great, and overly-inquisitive, Rhona Beare (for an upcoming meeting), about that which he has definitely found Ireland a welcome escape - LOTR! For those that have ‘Letters’ you need only read the first paragraph of #211 to gather what I’ve already stated, but take particular note of this second paragraph: “In a momentary lull I will try and answer your questions briefly. I do not ‘know all the answers’. Much of my own book puzzles me; & in any case much of it was written so long ago (anything up to 20 years) that I read it now as if it were from a strange hand”.
Now please read that 2nd paragraph again.
The rest of the letter begins: “The use of O on II p.339 is an error. Mine in fact”. Goodness, Tolkien has erred. For the next question he admits another error: with Glorfindel’s horse, he states he used the term bridle-and-bit “casually and carelessly”, and “I will change ‘bridle and bit’ to ‘headstall’. 0 for 2. Bypassing for now Rhona’s floating Ring question, she then asks about the colours of the ‘other’ wizards, in which he claims no knowledge. But he had in fact already written about the Ithryn Luin (‘The Istari’ - UT). 0 for 3 (actually 4), then he draws the ridiculously large and conical representation of Gondor’s crown.
Which brings us back to his plea that we “need not boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring”. Need not boggle? Seriously? Boggling is what we do as Tolkien fans. It’s what he did all his life. He boggled at the lunar phases, the movements of the Nazgul, multiple versions of his stories, not to mention his languages! Need not boggle? Yes we boggle. Rhona Beare boggled. She was the master boggler, and put forth the questions that Tolkien was so hard-pressed to answer. And no, there’s no way Sauron had the Ring in Numenor. When his spirit drifted back to Middle-earth, “he took up again the great Ring and clothed himself in power" [‘Of the Rings of Power’]. Note, "again"!
The One Ring and the Foundations of Barad-dur were completed at the same time, with the same sorcery, and is where he kept it safe. He knew Numenor was a suicide mission. If his spirit was able to carry the Ring across the Sea from Numenor, it destroys the entire premise of the Third Age and the LOTR.
Please Amazon, pay no heed to Letter #211, and don’t bring the Ring to Numenor. Tolkien was exhausted, distracted, and probably hungover, responding to Rhona’s penetrating inquisition. As he said to Burchfield, about his ‘intemperate expressions’, “Forget them!”


Truth be told that passage doesn't mean anything, that he took up the Ring again, is natural since he needed time to recover bodily form, he could only 'wear it' when he had body, it took some time before he reformed (about hundred years maybe) new shape allowed him to put the ring on again :). As for spirit carrying it, well and how do you imagine Ainur were building the world out of matter? With hands they didn't yet have, they assumed physical form for the first time already ON Arda, but before someone had to build that Arda :). It's true that Tolkien sometimes forgot his own writings and sometimes he left some things even to himself a mystery, and so on, but that doesn't mean that he had not general understanding or outlook of his own world :).

Power over matter of the Ainur would be useless if they could not work it being in immaterial spirit forms. Another thing is also that in Lotr Return of the King we clearly see Gandalf doing 'telekinetic' stuff :) :). Furthermore there is a deep connection between the Ring and it's master, as in another letter Tolkien writes: "even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself" so why it so farfetched to think his spirit could take it immediately from the place where his body was destroyed :).


fantasywind
The Shire

Sep 11, 4:42pm


Views: 869
Dwarf old norse names


In Reply To
It's been a while since I last read The Silmarillion, so I don't recall what any Dwarves were named.
A potential solution has occurred to me. The names "Durin" and "Narvi" are not necessarily the forms of the names they actually used during the Second Age, but rather the forms the names had at the time they were written down sometime in the latter Third Age or early Fourth Age, which is why they are identical to the forms the Dwarves were then using. The forms used in the Second Age would presumably have been in whatever language the people of Rhovanion were then using. Given that he'd already used Gothic for the Third Age, perhaps Tolkien would have used proto-Indo-European to represent the language of the Northmen in the Second Age.


Well indeed texts within HoME, Peoples of Middle-earth, Of Dwarves and Men, seem to indicate that (in this essay tehre is some note which I can't bother to find right now, that Durin name meant 'king' in tongue of Northmen) it's a way for Tolkien to explain the incorporated elements from The Hobbit into larger legendarium.


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 13, 3:36pm


Views: 801
So how does your well-put 2nd Age theory explain Sauron's relative 'impotence' in the 3rd Age?

I’m referring to your thesis of a mighty Ainu, an incorporeal and telekinetic soul, able to do with the Ring as his disembodied spirit pleases; but is then unable to maintain or recover the Ring for 3000 years, and eventually is oblivious to a disparate band making its way with said Ring to his very land.

If you can convince me, without unreasonable contradiction or fan-fic, how Sauron & the Ring’s relationship differed so drastically between the 2nd Age & the 3rd, I’ll listen. But you can’t have it both ways.

And, more importantly perhaps, to bring this on topic to this particular Forum, I’m wondering how Amazon is going to successfully present, to a general movie-going audience of Jackson’s LOTR, that the Ring, cleaved as it was from Sauron in his prologue, separated for millennia, dramatically narrated by Galadriel, mandating the journey of the Novel of the Century, can be just casually floated across the Sea to land perfectly with Sauron’s omnipotence, innocently awaiting his ‘clothing’. They may say, what the hell is this ****? Just as the sparkplug Rhona Beare did 60 years ago!


(This post was edited by Dunadan of North Arnor on Sep 13, 3:51pm)


Solicitr
Rohan

Sep 13, 9:43pm


Views: 725
Maybe

He airmailed it ahead by Fellbeast

{ducks}


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 14, 12:33am


Views: 704
That’s as good of an explanation as Letter 211 :) //

 


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 14, 1:20pm


Views: 652
So was Ar-Pharazon supremely powerful, or a complete idiot?


In Reply To
would he [Sauron] have had the force of will and powers of persuasion necessary to gull the King of Men- the strongest-willed of them all - without the Ring's aid?


But would Ar-Pharazon, the ‘strongest willed Man of them all’ as you put it, King of Numenor at its height of power, not have had, at the very least, operatives or an inner circle of military generals to search Sauron completely before he’s brought back to Numenor, not to mention any time thereafter? Would he also, in his position, have absolutely no knowledge of the history of the Rings, including the 3 Black Numenoreans corrupted as Ringwraiths?

Furthermore, did Sauron need the Ring to corrupt Numenor? As squire quite rightly points out, the original story of Numenor’s downfall was conceived before there even was a Ring. And in all the developments of the story, a large percentage of Numenoreans were on Sauron's side from the get-go.

Sauron was the most powerful Maia after all, Saruman, the corrupting wordsmith, was merely a lesser version. Like I’ve already said, you can't have it both ways. Ar-Pharazon was either too powerful, or a blissful idiot. Which one? I await the choice and detailed response. :)


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Sep 14, 3:17pm


Views: 640
He was both

As is so often the case.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Hasuwandil
Rivendell


Sep 14, 8:54pm


Views: 609
Second vs. Third Age


In Reply To
I’m referring to your thesis of a mighty Ainu, an incorporeal and telekinetic soul, able to do with the Ring as his disembodied spirit pleases; but is then unable to maintain or recover the Ring for 3000 years, and eventually is oblivious to a disparate band making its way with said Ring to his very land.

That's been troubling me too. If Sauron's disembodied spirit can take the Ring from Númenor back to Middle-earth, then why doesn't it just follow Isildur around and snatch the Ring back at an opportune moment, or fish it out of the Anduin after Isildur's death?

Even ignoring that, assuming that his spirit was "unconscious" or something for a while, it seems that Sauron would have realized that no one possessed the Ring after Isildur, and that he would have searched extensively for it around the place Isildur was killed. He had some 3000 years to find it. It would seem to explain why he took up residence on Dol Guldur. And the first time he occupied Dol Guldur, he was there for over a thousand years, all before Déagol found the Ring. Why didn't he find it himself?

Hêlâ Auriwandil, angilô berhtost,
oƀar Middangard mannum gisandid!


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 15, 2:11am


Views: 529
Good answer. Bad question.

Of course. He was the most supremely powerful Man, no question. But there’s idiocy and then there’s idiocy. Taking on the Valar because you want to avert Death is idiocy. That’s the story after all. Hitler was supremely powerful and an idiot, and that’s as close as I’ll get to modern politics. But being completely oblivious to the Ring, wielded willy-nilly under his nose, is idiocy of a different kind, and one to which I cannot suspend my disbelief.

The Ring wasn’t in Númenor, period. As Solicitr puts it, the Ring was his Soul-Jar, created to prevent what happened to his master Morgoth. It meant he had a back-up to being captured or banished by the Powers. The 3rd Age and the entire story of the LOTR is about that! For him to have brought his Soul-Jar with him to an island near the West, on a mission to convince the most powerful Man and his armada to challenge those Powers, after himself having witnessed the sinking of Beleriand, is beyond idiocy - it’s not realistic or believable in any way. (He rather should have mailed the Ring to the Marx Brothers, for those that get the reference).

That’s my story and I’m sticking with it Faithful One. :)


(This post was edited by Dunadan of North Arnor on Sep 15, 2:15am)


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 15, 2:25am


Views: 525
Thank you Hasuwandil!

There’s some good in this world and it’s worth fighting for... :)


kzer_za
Lorien

Sep 15, 12:27pm


Views: 480
Sauron suffered two major defeats in a row

After the drowning, he was sufficiently weakened that he could no longer take a "fair form." His defeat by Elendil and co. could have crippled his powers enough that his spirit could no longer take the Ring or any physical form awhile. Exactly how he was able and when he was able to re-embody himself (which Jackson did not portray, though I think it was a reasonable cinematic choice for the most part) by the late Third Age is unclear as I recall.

People tend to behave stupidly around the Ring. It's stupid for Denethor to want to just hide the Ring deep in Minas Tirith just in case, but that's his "plan" anyway. Also, Sauron's final corruption of Pharazon and Numenor writ large is basically the Ring's corruption of individuals writ large, and Sauron being able to make them worship Morgoth is more believable if he has the Ring. There are a variety of ways they could show Pharazon allowing it - maybe he thinks he'd like to experiment with it himself, maybe Sauron just uses its powers of persuasion to convince him.

I don't think Sauron expected the drowning to happen (it required a rare direct intervention from Eru), merely a smaller cataclysm like the destruction of the armada. As we see in LotR, Sauron has a weakness for hubris and not considering all the possibilities.

Also Amazon is going to want to have the Ring play a major role in the later seasons I think. Whatever canonical oddities need to be smoothed over (and really the most we can say is that Tolkien probably hadn't fully worked this out), I do think it's narratively and thematically sensible to have it there.


(This post was edited by kzer_za on Sep 15, 12:38pm)


kzer_za
Lorien

Sep 15, 12:47pm


Views: 474
Maybe Pharazon takes the Ring for himself when he captures Sauron

And stores it somewhere "safe." Then Sauron later convinces Pharazon to give it back as he starts gradually worming his way into the king's inner circle.

(edit limit expired, needed a new post)


(This post was edited by kzer_za on Sep 15, 12:47pm)


fantasywind
The Shire

Sep 15, 4:21pm


Views: 461
Third Age Sauron and Ring


In Reply To
I’m referring to your thesis of a mighty Ainu, an incorporeal and telekinetic soul, able to do with the Ring as his disembodied spirit pleases; but is then unable to maintain or recover the Ring for 3000 years, and eventually is oblivious to a disparate band making its way with said Ring to his very land.
If you can convince me, without unreasonable contradiction or fan-fic, how Sauron & the Ring’s relationship differed so drastically between the 2nd Age & the 3rd, I’ll listen. But you can’t have it both ways.
And, more importantly perhaps, to bring this on topic to this particular Forum, I’m wondering how Amazon is going to successfully present, to a general movie-going audience of Jackson’s LOTR, that the Ring, cleaved as it was from Sauron in his prologue, separated for millennia, dramatically narrated by Galadriel, mandating the journey of the Novel of the Century, can be just casually floated across the Sea to land perfectly with Sauron’s omnipotence, innocently awaiting his ‘clothing’. They may say, what the hell is this ****? Just as the sparkplug Rhona Beare did 60 years ago!


It's very easy actually and here hints are given in another Tolkien letter. At the end of Second Age, at the final moment of War of the Last Alliance, Sauron gets his second death, and with this second death he loses some portion of 'energy' which makes him weaker and his spirit unanchored flees as far as possible, a huge blow to him, (and certainly disorienting experience for his spirit) and in the same time Isildur takes hold of the Ring. The first death in the Downfall already took from him ability to appear in fair form, he no longer could assume beautiful shape, he lost that power, and his bodies would afterwards no longer be able to hide the corruption of his spirit (so would be hideous and terrifying) the second death would take even greater toll on him, hence the much, much longer period of recovery. After that Sauron no longer knew where the Ring was and it was beyond his reach, first death had it on his person without anyone else to take hold of it and he wasn't yet 'fallen' so low.


Quote
"[..] It was because of this pre-occupation with the Children of God that the spirits [The Ainur] so often took the form and likeness of the Children, especially after their appearance. It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was 'real', that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gilgalad [sic] and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book.'"


This in the same time explains why Sauron would not be able to take Ring the second time. In HOME X 'Morgoth's Ring', Text VII, 'Myths Transformed', JRRT writes:


Quote
"[..] The Elves certainly held and taught that fëar or 'spirits' may grow of their own life (independently of the body), even as they may be hurt and healed, be diminished and renewed. [The following was added marginally after the page was written: If they do not sink below a certain level. Since no fëa can be annihilated, reduced to zero or not-existing, it is no[t] clear what is meant. Thus Sauron was said to have fallen below the point of ever recovering, though he had previously recovered. What is probably meant is that a 'wicked' spirit becomes fixed in a certain desire or ambition, and if it cannot repent then this desire becomes virtually its whole being. But the desire may be wholly beyond the weakness it has fallen to, and it will then be unable to withdraw its attention from the unobtainable desire, even to attend to itself. It will then remain for ever in impotent desire or memory of desire.]"


Besides the Ring and Sauron while inherently linked together need to be relatively 'physically' close to each other especially so that Sauron could sense it. It is said that Sauron would have seen anyone wearing the Ring in certain immediate area, like inside Mordor and so Sauron becomes aware when Frodo puts it on on his finger (there's also the case of the Ring growing in strength the closer to Orodruin it is to reach it's peak, the Ring is so closely resonating with Sauron that when he is inactive so the Ring becomes more 'dormant' but when Sauron is at work and his strength returning so the Ring is more active and Sauron also as mentioned purposefully sends out his thoughts to reach it, to draw it to himself, this was the reason why Ring abandoned Gollum after spending enough time with him, to what extent the Ring acts on it's own, as is often stated, would require separate analysis). Sauron is not omnipotent, omnipresent and all knowing, though he may strive to be, he has limits and when his personal power is under such fluctuations due to expending so much of himself and being destroyed which would dissipate some amount of his inner strength and take more to rebuild himself a new shape would be natural cause of this particular set of events.

Sauron was always at his peak in earlier time, Third Age War of the Ring sees him recovered to the point of being a powerful threat once again but not to the full potential he once had (quite besides the fact that without the Ring he is no longer enhanced as Ring made him MORE powerful than even originally he was in say First Age). Well in any case we can say that Tolkien's letters would be viewed as extension of author's own vision, so as letter has it: "‘He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans.’"

In general there are various what we call 'retcons' happening in Tolkien stories (The Hobbit has one such example) but Tolkien actually tried to make everything as consistent as possible.


fantasywind
The Shire

Sep 15, 4:37pm


Views: 455
Sauron's plan for Numenor


In Reply To
Of course. He was the most supremely powerful Man, no question. But there’s idiocy and then there’s idiocy. Taking on the Valar because you want to avert Death is idiocy. That’s the story after all. Hitler was supremely powerful and an idiot, and that’s as close as I’ll get to modern politics. But being completely oblivious to the Ring, wielded willy-nilly under his nose, is idiocy of a different kind, and one to which I cannot suspend my disbelief.
The Ring wasn’t in Númenor, period. As Solicitr puts it, the Ring was his Soul-Jar, created to prevent what happened to his master Morgoth. It meant he had a back-up to being captured or banished by the Powers. The 3rd Age and the entire story of the LOTR is about that! For him to have brought his Soul-Jar with him to an island near the West, on a mission to convince the most powerful Man and his armada to challenge those Powers, after himself having witnessed the sinking of Beleriand, is beyond idiocy - it’s not realistic or believable in any way. (He rather should have mailed the Ring to the Marx Brothers, for those that get the reference).
That’s my story and I’m sticking with it Faithful One. :)


Actually Sauron did not intend for the Downfall of Numenor to happen this way, as in entire island being taken down with him on it. He only wanted to destroy Ar-Pharazon as his personal great nemesis, destroy the man who thought he could be his rival for power over the whole world. As far as the Akallebeth says:


Quote
"For Sauron himself was filled with great fear at the wrath of the Valar, and the doom that Eru laid upon sea and land. It was greater far than aught he had looked for, hoping only for the death of the Númenóreans and the defeat of their proud king. And Sauron, sitting in his black seat in the midst of the Temple, had laughed when he heard the trumpets of Ar-Pharazôn sounding for battle; and again he had laughed when he heard the thunder of the storm; and a third time, even as he laughed at his own thought, thinking what he would do now in the world, being rid of the Edain for ever, he was taken in the midst of his mirth, and his seat and his temple fell into the abyss."


In Sauron's plans Numenorean king and army is destroyed when they invade Aman and he remains to rule what remains of Numenor and rest of the world at his leisure, but Iluvatar makes a full reset and entire island is destroyed and cataclysm smashes a large portion of the world, changing everything, the power and destruction unleashed is far greater than anticipated. The Ring is not exactly what the 'soul-jar' is, not entirely, it is amplifier artifact which enhances power of Sauron, makes him stronger than he was by his nature. Sauron wearing the Ring is stronger than before, in the same time the Ring preserved the power that was put in it, but the Ring purpose was to gain more complete control, as the Ring's power of dominating minds is greater than anything else. As Tolkien writes:


Quote
"But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power (a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story) pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place. This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his situation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants. There was another weakness: if the One Ring was actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved, Sauron's own being would be diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will. But that he never contemplated nor feared. The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save the undying subterranean fire where it was made – and that was unapproachable, in Mordor. Also so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought. It was in any case on his finger. Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn.

The Ring of Sauron is only one of the various mythical treatments of the placing of one's life, or power, in some external object, which is thus exposed to capture or destruction with disastrous results to oneself. If I were to 'philosophize' this myth, or at least the Ring of Sauron, I should say it was a mythical way of representing the truth that potency (or perhaps rather potentiality) if it is to be exercised, and produce results, has to be externalized and so as it were passes, to a greater or less degree, out of one's direct control. A man who wishes to exert 'power' must have subjects, who are not himself. But he then depends on them."



Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Sep 16, 5:41pm


Views: 400
Honestly, whether or not the Ring was in Numenor is not very important to me

As Squire (and you yourself) have noted, when Tolkien originally wrote the story of the Downfall of Numenor, the One Ring did not even exist. But the story of a powerful king (eventually Ar-Pharazon,the Golden, but in the earliest versions called "Angor the Mighty" and then "Tar-kalion the golden") corrupted by power and the fear of death, goaded on by the representative of evil still remaining in the world despite Morgoth's banishment (already known as Sauron) is what makes it such a resonating tale.

Ring or no Ring.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Sep 16, 10:01pm


Views: 379
"I have exhausted my vocabulary, and nearly fused the telephone-wires."

Great quote!

What sort of profanity was Tolkien likely to have used?


Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.

But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.


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Solicitr
Rohan

Sep 16, 11:37pm


Views: 362
To

exhaust Tolkien's vocabulary must have been one marathon rant indeed.


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 17, 12:48am


Views: 357
Which all very much helps to makes the case

that the Ring didn’t need to be in Numenor, and the Ring wasn’t in Numenor.


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 17, 1:48am


Views: 348
and would have made

any impending letters written, done under such duress, that they must be thrown out in any court indeed :)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 17, 4:11am


Views: 336
The question is...


In Reply To
Which all very much helps to makes the case that the Ring didn’t need to be in Numenor, and the Ring wasn’t in Numenor.


...what would have prompted Sauron to leave the Master Ring behind (presumably in Mordor)? He surely would have had it in his possession when he first went to confront Ar-Pharazon's forces. To whom would he have entrusted his Ring when he saw the might of Numenor and decided on the tactic of surrendering himself? I don't see that happening.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 17, 4:17am)


The Dude
The Shire

Sep 17, 6:32am


Views: 321
Returning to the TV series...

I doubt that Sauron will leave the Ring behind before he goes to Númenor. The two main story-lines of the Second Age, the tale of the rings (1) and the rise and fall of Númenor (2), do not always coincide in Tolkien's oeuvre, but I am hesitant to say that the ring will completely vanish from the series once we come to that stage.

The better question is what role the Ring will play in the downfall of Númenor. It could very well be, for example, that the showrunners decide that Ar-Pharazôn is somehow under the influence of the One Ring, i.e., that the proximity to the Ring increases his desire for immortality. I am not saying this is a good idea, but again, if I were a betting man, I would predict that the Ring will have some important role to play in the storyline about "Sauron in Númenor". The alternative would be that Sauron actually leaves the Ring behind with one of his most trusted servant's in Middle-earth, e.g., the Witch-king, a character that viewers will probably already be familiar with by now (having seen him become a wraith). In this scenario we could very well get a B-plot, coinciding with the Númenor plotline, in which the Witch-king, in the possession of the Ring, is busy corrupting other men in Middle-earth. Again, not my preferred version (in this case I would actually prefer something along the lines of option A).

In any case - it is highely unlikely that the Ring will simply vanish from the series, only to return with the Last Alliance.


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 17, 6:56am


Views: 317
The answer is...


In Reply To
...what would have prompted Sauron to leave the Master Ring behind (presumably in Mordor)?


Survival.


In Reply To
He surely would have had it in his possession when he first went to confront Ar-Pharazon's forces.


No. He did not confront Ar-Pharazôn’s forces at all, he “came [alone] and made no offer of battle... he was crafty, well-skilled to gain what he would by subtlety”


In Reply To
To whom would he have entrusted his Ring when he saw the might of Numenor and decided on the tactic of surrendering himself?


No one. It was locked within the Foundations of Barad-dur - completed by the same sorcery, at the same time, as the Ring - along with the Nine Rings (and those of the Seven). The Nazgûl, completely corrupted as slaves, were no threat to him, and did not wear the Rings; the Foundations of Barad-dur were as indestructible as the Ring, as the result of the Last Alliance proved. That’s a million times safer, and smarter, than bringing it along with you, alone, to an island in the West before the World was changed, within reach of the Valar, not to mention Ar-Pharazôn himself!


(This post was edited by Dunadan of North Arnor on Sep 17, 7:06am)


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 17, 7:51am


Views: 311
Okay, conceding to Amazons possible interests

IF the Ring is a necessary accoutrement of Sauron in Numenor for maximum dramatic effect in the TV Series, then use his shape-shifting abilities! The history of Sauron is replete with shape-changing. Show him morphing into/out-of Annatar and a more diabolical form at a point during the forging of the Rings. Then have him use his established shape-shifting to give him the ability to completely hide the Ring from the Numenoreans, with the obligatory nod to the audience. Pretty easy, so far.

When Numenor falls, and Sauron goes “down into the abyss, but his spirit arose and fled back on a dark wind”, have him morph into a vampire-bat with the Ring around it’s neck, bolting back to Mordor...

That’s the best I can offer :)


(This post was edited by Dunadan of North Arnor on Sep 17, 7:55am)


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 17, 8:28am


Views: 313
What sort of profanity?

“That Rhona Beare, asking her ******* questions, like I know what the hell’s going on? I just tried to enjoy a fortnight in the only place I can get a rest these days from that ******* LOTR, not to mention the wife & kids; and it turned out to be a ******* nightmare of a trip!

“ ‘Bit and bridle’, colours of other wizards, and holy ****, the Ring in Numenor? God****** I don’t know! I’m gonna down a pint, draw a huge ******* cone of a hat, and wing the rest!”

RIP Rhona Beare Heart


The Dude
The Shire

Sep 17, 8:31am


Views: 303
I know you are half-joking...

but I think it is essential for the series to show that Sauron did not anticipate the utter destruction of Númenor, and thus that he did not perish there willingly. Otherwise, viewers might very well get the impression that the whole turn of events was Sauron's plan from the beginning. The series must show that the downfall of Númenor is actually, in many ways, a major loss for the Deceiver: physically on a personal level but also strategically. If Sauron drowns in the series but then immediatly turns into a bat and flies away with the Ring, it would look like a video-game boss who just lost one of his lives and now is back to full health.

A more subtle solution might be that the Ring actually washes up on the shores of Middle-earth; perhaps with the implication that Sauron's spirit - although weakened - still had the ability somehow to will the Ring to wash up there (an ability that he lost when he perished yet again later).*

*On the assumption that Ossë was busy elsewhere.


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 17, 9:04am


Views: 298
I actually wasn’t, and I disagree

The Ring washing up on the shore of Middle-earth and being recovered by Sauron, however you attempt it, would be, IMO, far more convoluted than the swift phoenix rising out of the abyss by an established shape-changer.

And, although I think the show should display Ar-Pharazôn as all-powerful, it is ‘Lord of the Rings’ after all, and it should have Sauron be the ultimate provocateur. Maybe not anticipating the sinking of the island and Change of the World, but certainly behind it all, and not the ultimate loser in the Downfall!


(This post was edited by Dunadan of North Arnor on Sep 17, 9:06am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Tue, 2:41pm


Views: 261
Sauron leaving the Ring in Barad-dûr


In Reply To

In Reply To
...what would have prompted Sauron to leave the Master Ring behind (presumably in Mordor)?


Survival.


Survival? What would he have feared? His survival was assured unless the Ring was unmade--a circumstance that was inconceivable to him. And he did not anticipate the destruction of Númenor.


In Reply To

In Reply To
He surely would have had it in his possession when he first went to confront Ar-Pharazon's forces.


No. He did not confront Ar-Pharazôn’s forces at all, he “came [alone] and made no offer of battle... he was crafty, well-skilled to gain what he would by subtlety”


Okay, I'll concede you that point.


In Reply To

In Reply To
To whom would he have entrusted his Ring when he saw the might of Numenor and decided on the tactic of surrendering himself?


No one. It was locked within the Foundations of Barad-dur - completed by the same sorcery, at the same time, as the Ring - along with the Nine Rings (and those of the Seven). The Nazgûl, completely corrupted as slaves, were no threat to him, and did not wear the Rings; the Foundations of Barad-dur were as indestructible as the Ring, as the result of the Last Alliance proved. That’s a million times safer, and smarter, than bringing it along with you, alone, to an island in the West before the World was changed, within reach of the Valar, not to mention Ar-Pharazôn himself!


Tolkien seems to rebut this idea himself in his letters. But, beyond that, would Sauron have trusted that none of the Nazgûl would think to take the Ring for themselves? I don't buy that his confidence in the loyalty of the Ringwraiths was absolute. It can be argued that this scenario raises just as many questions as the idea of Sauron taking the Ring to Númenor.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Tue, 2:47pm)


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Tue, 3:57pm


Views: 246
Proof

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAgnJDJN4VA

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Tue, 4:04pm


Views: 242
How does he rebut it?

Please tell me before you dismiss me. The Nine Rings were housed in the Foundations, and the Nine were slaves. Talk to Michael Martinez if you’re insistent on the Nazgûl wearing the Rings, not housed by Sauron, and a threat to his existence.

And Sauron feared being taken by the Powers, as his master was, that’s why he created the Ring & Barad-dur! I’ve gone over this and have exhausted my vocabulary and fused the telephone wires!

Everybody is going thru hoops and doing backflips to explain the bloody Ring in Numenor. I’ve challenged all 17 ridiculous theories, made a simple case, and stand by the fact that it could not be there.

But I’ve moved on from the Floating Ringers and proposed the most likely scenario I can make for a dramatic interpretation of the events of the Ring in Numenor for a TV series.

There is no rant to continue with me. :)


kzer_za
Lorien

Tue, 4:14pm


Views: 235
At the end of the day, we still have a clear statement from Tolkien in the letters contradicting you

Even if written in an exhausted frame of mind, there is nothing in the legendarium that clearly says he didn't have it. Taking up the ring "again" is weak; it can easily be read consistently with Sauron having the Ring.

Are there tensions and difficulties fitting it with everything else? Yes, but the same is true of other things in the mythology once you go past the Third Age, or even within it. For example, The Hobbit has anachronisms and buffoonish dwarves and silly elves and the big Gollum retcon, LotR proper is very inconsistent on whether we should sympathize at all with the orcs (even setting aside speculations recorded in Morgoth's Ring). Glorfindel wasn't "fixed" until very late. It would prefer to say that yes, he had the Ring but Tolkien hadn't worked all the details out than that his only direct statement on the question was completely wrong. I know "canon" is a fuzzy concept in the legendarium, but even if we don't take that letter as definitive the Ring in Numenor is an ambiguous matter at most.

And I really disagree that Sauron "knew Numenor was a suicide mission." I think he expected to return home on a ship.


(This post was edited by kzer_za on Tue, 4:28pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Tue, 5:01pm


Views: 218
Sauron in Númenor


In Reply To
Please tell me before you dismiss me. The Nine Rings were housed in the Foundations, and the Nine were slaves. Talk to Michael Martinez if you’re insistent on the Nazgûl wearing the Rings, not housed by Sauron, and a threat to his existence.


The Nine are not an issue as far as I'm concerned. I am solely discussing Sauron and the Master Ring.


In Reply To
Everybody is going thru hoops and doing backflips to explain the bloody Ring in Numenor. I’ve challenged all 17 ridiculous theories, made a simple case, and stand by the fact that it could not be there.

But I’ve moved on from the Floating Ringers and proposed the most likely scenario I can make for a dramatic interpretation of the events of the Ring in Numenor for a TV series.

There is no rant to continue with me. :)


I dispute your use of the word 'fact' in light of Tolkien's own comments on the matter of Sauron bearing the Ring to Númenor. The Dark Lord could well have been able to conceal its presence from the perception of others; Gandalf and the other bearers of the Three would seem to have a similar ability. The power stored within the Ring could have been sufficient to allow the disembodied Maia to bear it back to Middle-earth.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Tue, 5:02pm)


InTheChair
Lorien

Tue, 6:38pm


Views: 202
See it as something to work with.

Elrond and Elros ears would not be a problem. As half-elven Amazon could just opt to give them both human ears.


How did Sauron get the ring out of Numenor?

I think we can rule out most of the practical solutions.

1. He left it at home? No! The Numenoreans would not let him come and go as he wished, and he could not have foreseen how long it would take to convince them.

2. He predicted the downfall and sent it away with someone completely under his control? No! He did not predict the downfall, and even assuming the ring had not at this early stage such power on ambitious minds as it later acquired, I do not think he would have trusted anybody else with it.

3. He changes shape and flies away with it? No! When Illuvatar puts down the hammer it would be bad form for Sauron to dodge.

4. There were two rings. Saurons spirit beeing its true master extracted all the power from it before it fled away and after re-clothing himself he re-forged the shape with new material? No! Conceptual faux pas.

5. The ring went to the bottom of the sea. So did Saurons spirit and re-clothed himself as a narwhal. No! That's Ulmo's domain and Sauron likes it no better than did Morgoth. And besides, it's stupid.

So Amazon should really trust in the wonders of fairy-tale for this one.

The relative ease with which he takes a new shape afterwards gives us some indication of his capacity at this time. We can note with interest that even weaker spirits such as those inhabiting the Paths of the Dead in the third age appears with spirit swords and spirit banners. Where did they get those? Funny how Old Bombadil made it seem like the ring disappeared with a flash. Conjurers trick maybe. There is Gandalf's staff, but he probably got a new one.

Either way I don't think Amazon should try to explain how the ring gets away. They should view it as a dramatic opportunity. The destruction of Saurons body and the loss of the ring will do for good cinematics, and his surprising reappearance will do for dramatic if tropey effect. Not for us of course, but there must be a substantial part of the intended audience that has never cast eyes on the Downfall of Numenor and do not know the cliff-notes.


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Wed, 2:45pm


Views: 161
So do just as Tolkien did & hope no one notices...

That ain’t bad, as far as it being the best option for Amazon that’s been put forward by anyone here, myself included, so far.

You wouldn’t have to show the Ring on Sauron’s finger at all. Minimize the cinematic dependence on him flagrantly wielding the Ring way back in Middle-earth, and focus totally on dialogue-driven interaction between him, Ar-Pharazôn, and the Numenoreans. It wouldn’t even need to show up again until his return to form in Mordor.

Wing it and keep us guessing just as Tolkien did, thus actually adhering to canon in a backwards sort of way! I daresay you’ve won, and I wave the white flag. Congratulations!

(Of course there will be millennial Rhona Beare’s coming out of the woodwork left and right at this! But they’ll probably blame Amazon and not Tolkien anyway. Brilliant!)


(This post was edited by Dunadan of North Arnor on Wed, 2:51pm)


fantasywind
The Shire

Wed, 3:19pm


Views: 322
Sauron, Ring, Numenor and Tolkien final word

As much as this is amusing, I would honestly say that Tolkien letters cannot be ignored as a source no matter in what state Tolkien was when he wrote them. As I said earlier Tolkien sometimes did forgot things he wrote earlier or changed his mind as his stories developed some coherence and continuity but that doesn't mean his word on the matters that fans asked him about cannot be trusted, who otherwise would say what's a 'fact' what's not if not the author himself?

It also should be noted that Tolkien often felt obliged to make stories internally consistent. There is one interesting example of things he felt he needed to explain, the norse names of Dwarves used in The Hobbit explaining it in essay Of Dwarves and Men in the Peoples of Middle-earth, where he also had moment where he strove for consistency but ultimately found there's no problem, concerning the runes Dwarves use of ultimately elven origin (Daeron runes) and the statement in the Hobbit that 'moon-letters' were invented by Dwarves.

This indeed shows that Tolkien tried as much as possible to connect the dots even taking The Hobbit into consideration.

As far as the Ring in Numenor is concerned I see nothing wrong with showing it there, especially since logical move for Sauron would be to take it (after all when not wearing it Sauron would purposefully lower his power which is stupid, with it on his finger Sauron is stronger). Also one thing when all is said and done the One Ring is a mind control tool, it allows for far better and more efficient dominating of minds (beings like Ainur could certainly do this mental domination thing on their own, with their own minds, but the Ring would be a much easier in this, an artifact which would make the task easier and more efficient would be desirable for Sauron). Leaving the Ring would be like crippling yourself or removing the advantage you have, so leaving it would be stupidity. Second Sauron and the Ring were never in danger and Sauron did not know or believe that Numenor will become totally destroyed, and certainly he did not believe that the Valar or their emissaries would arrive on Numenor especially since such a thing haven't happened since the Numenoreans ideological conflict with Blessed Realm and rejecting their teachings.

Ar-Pharazon as per the letter itself, did not know anything of the Ring, in fact the Rings of Power were known only to few, the knowledge about them was kept secret (Dwarven lords kept secret their rings, and only members of royal family would know of them etc.) so that's not a problem also Sauron could well veil and hide the Ring just like the bearers of the Three could (after all in 'earlier incarnations' Sauron could veil his power in physical form), in the War of the Last Alliance, Sauron shape would be terrifying and unable to hide his might and power and true nature, hence:


Quote
"It was hot when I first took it, hot as a glede, and my hand was scorched, so that I doubt if ever again I shall be free of the pain of it. Yet even as I write it is cooled, and it seemeth to shrink, though it loseth neither its beauty nor its shape. Already the writing upon it, which at first was as clear as red flame, fadeth and is now only barely to be read. It is fashioned in an elven-script of Eregion, for they have no letters in Mordor for such subtle work; but the language is unknown to me. I deem it to be a tongue of the Black Land, since it is foul and uncouth. What evil it saith I do not know; but I trace here a copy of it, lest it fade beyond recall.
....
The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed; and maybe were the gold made hot again, the writing would be refreshed.


As the letter of Tolkien has it:


Quote
Ar-Pharazôn, as is told in the ‘Downfall’ or Akallabêth, conquered a terrified Sauron’s subjects, not Sauron. Sauron’s personal ‘surrender’ was voluntary and cunning*: he got free transport to Numenor! He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans. (I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, as long as they could. In any case Ar-Pharazôn was not in communication with them. In the Tale of Years III p. 364 you will find hints of the trouble: ‘the Shadow falls on Numenor’. After Tar-Atanamir (an Elvish name) the next name is Ar-Adunakhôr a Númenórean name. See p. 315.2 The change of names went with a complete rejection of the Elffriendship, and of the ‘theological’ teaching the Númenóreans had received from them.)

Sauron was first defeated by a ‘miracle’: a direct action of God the Creator, changing the fashion of the world, when appealed to by Manwë: see III p. 317. Though reduced to ‘a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind’, I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended. That Sauron was not himself destroyed in the anger of the One is not my fault: the problem of evil, and its apparent toleration, is a permanent one for all who concern themselves with our world. The indestructibility of spirits with free wills, even by the Creator of them, is also an inevitable feature, if one either believes in their existence, or feigns it in a story.

Sauron was, of course, ‘confounded’ by the disaster, and diminished (having expended enormous energy in the corruption of Númenor). He needed time for his own bodily rehabilitation, and for gaining control over his former subjects. He was attacked by Gil-galad and Elendil before his new domination was fully established.


Other matters that need to be resolved would be concerning various versions differing background for Galadriel and Celeborn history from UT. The use of name Annatar (used in the Silm, 'Of the Rings of Power..') or UT used Aulendil, Artano, probably solved by simply being all used :)or when exactly Gil-galad and Cirdan and Elrond received the Rings (one version has Gil-galad the two of the Three Vilya and Narya and later distributing it to Cirdan, while giving Elrond Vilya before Last Alliance the other version has Cirdan getting Narya immediately from Celebrimbor).


Solicitr
Rohan

Wed, 3:58pm


Views: 316
Yup.

The best thing for the TV show to do is duck. Just avoid the issue. If any bullet-counters in the audience object, then the writers can blame Tolkien for it!


Solicitr
Rohan

Wed, 4:06pm


Views: 318
Subject


In Reply To

Other matters that need to be resolved would be concerning various versions differing background for Galadriel and Celeborn history from UT. The use of name Annatar (used in the Silm, 'Of the Rings of Power..') or UT used Aulendil, Artano, probably solved by simply being all used :)or when exactly Gil-galad and Cirdan and Elrond received the Rings (one version has Gil-galad the two of the Three Vilya and Narya and later distributing it to Cirdan, while giving Elrond Vilya before Last Alliance the other version has Cirdan getting Narya immediately from Celebrimbor).


Without looking into each of those individually, I would say that for the most part those can be sorted easily enough by the familiar Third Rule of Relative Canonicity: where Tolkien's writings conflict, the last composed usually takes priority.


(This post was edited by Solicitr on Wed, 4:06pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Wed, 5:03pm


Views: 309
Published Canon


In Reply To
Without looking into each of those individually, I would say that for the most part those can be sorted easily enough by the familiar Third Rule of Relative Canonicity: where Tolkien's writings conflict, the last composed usually takes priority.


I don't think I can get wholly behind that Rule where manuscripts that were not published in the author's lifetime are concerned. For me, the published canon takes precedence so that (for instance) Celeborn is a Sindar Elf born in Middle-earth and not the Teleporno of later writings.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)


Solicitr
Rohan

Wed, 6:44pm


Views: 296
Oh, yes

It is after all only the Third Law. The First Law is that Tolkien's published works take precedence over unpublished material. (Although in the case of two published works in conflict, the Third Law may still apply).


squire
Half-elven


Wed, 7:50pm


Views: 294
When the familiar is unfamiliar...

What is the origin of the familiar Three Rules of Relatlve Canonicity? How many fan-fiction, gaming, and scholarly groups and forums subscribe to them, thus cheerfully and easily settling all such arguments regarding Tolkien's fantasy writings?

I am ashamed to admit that after almost 15 years on these boards, following very many extended and (to my mind) pointless arguments about what is and isn't 'canon' in Tolkien's extended legendarium, I have never heard of these Rules before.



squire online:
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Solicitr
Rohan

Wed, 8:21pm


Views: 290
Well,

That's probably because I just made them up. Tongue I probably should have given them more generous numbers, like 86th and 132nd (in honor of the Rules of Acquisition)

Still, they do pretty much digest the informal guidelines which have come to govern canonicity discussions, all the way back to USENET.


squire
Half-elven


Wed, 8:37pm


Views: 292
Thanks

I don't dare ask what the Rules of Acquisition are.

But I continue to be a little confused, when you suggest that your clever 'Three Rules' for deciding canon and not-canon encompass "the informal guidelines which have come to govern canonicity discussions" all the way back to Yertle the Turtle, I mean USENET.

As I said earlier I feel like I have witnessed, and at times participated in, an almost endless number of discussions about what is canon in Tolkien. I can't remember any 'guidelines' doing any 'governing' at all: not published v non-published, not date order, not 'Letters' vs the books, not CT-authenticated vs non-CT-authenticated, nor any other so-called standards. Everyone has their own ideas about it, however pig-headed or misinformed in comparison to mine those ideas might be. As well, very often fans borrow rules of canon in odd ways from similar debates in other fantasy-universe fandoms, which are not really equivalent to Middle-earth in how or why they were written. Need I mention the films? No? Thank you.

Think about it: if any 'informal guidelines' existed which have governed canonicity discussions since USENET, there wouldn't be any need for canonicity discussions in the first place!



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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Thu, 12:53am


Views: 271
Here hear! //

 

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Thu, 1:16am


Views: 278
Please, enlighten us!


In Reply To
That's probably because I just made them up. Tongue I probably should have given them more generous numbers, like 86th and 132nd (in honor of the Rules of Acquisition)

Still, they do pretty much digest the informal guidelines which have come to govern canonicity discussions, all the way back to USENET.


Informal rules of canonicity that are only codified in your head are not particularly useful for meaningful discussion. Feel free to elaborate upon them here so we can have a common ground for debate. I do recall past discussions of what is canon and various levels of canon (primary, secondary, tertiary). Perhaps these rules would be helpful in defining such terms.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Thu, 1:20am)


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Thu, 1:40am


Views: 269
That's a Star Trek reference.

The "Rules of Acquisition" are prescriptions for successful dealing followed by the generally avaricious people called the Ferengi, who were introduced in the TV series Star Trek: The Next Generation and then elaborated in the spinoff series Star Trek: Deep Space 9, on which one of the main characters was the Ferengi bar proprietor named Quark.


Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.

But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.


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Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.


squire
Half-elven


Thu, 1:51am


Views: 271
Take me now, oh Lord

Really? My vague observation that 'canon' as a topic in Tolkien fandom is liable to corruption from other fandoms turns out to be accurate, within the bounds of the current discussion? Oog.

And someone named a character 'Quark' in a galactic fantasy universe? Isn't that like making the Kessel run in less than twelve parsecs?



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Solicitr
Rohan

Thu, 6:50pm


Views: 245
Good heavens!

Obviously my little joke didn't come off. No, there never have been any actual rules for determining canonicity, not even more than very rough guidelines. But relative ranking of texts is something that Tolkien readers have been doing since before the WWW (literally), probably since UT appeared and certainly once HME started coming out. I don't think any of the potential issues listed above pose intractable problems that can't be sorted in the traditional way.

(The fact of the matter is, I've never been of the mindset that says 'This is Canon and every other version is to be disregarded or, at best, considered apocrypha- Tolkkien isn't Scripture. I tend to incline towards "Well, Tolkien had two (or three) views and never really settled the matter to his own satisfaction." But a TV series has to pick one version and run with it.)


Solicitr
Rohan

Thu, 6:53pm


Views: 241
Subject


In Reply To

And someone named a character 'Quark' in a galactic fantasy universe? Isn't that like making the Kessel run in less than twelve parsecs?


"Quark" is a Ferengi name like Rom, Brun and Nog, and has no more relation to the English physics term than Nog does to egg punch.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Thu, 7:00pm


Views: 242
I doubt the people writing/producing the show care what is "canon"

Nor should they. They should care about what makes the best television show.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


InTheChair
Lorien

Thu, 7:08pm


Views: 235
Greed is eternal.

Every Ferengi business transaction is governed by 285 rules of acquisition. To ensure a fair and honest deal for all parties concerned. Well, most of them anyway.

There's a video on youtube going through all that were mentioned in the shows. I think they exist solely for the Ferengi to have something to talk about.


Solicitr
Rohan

Thu, 7:23pm


Views: 236
Except


In Reply To
Nor should they. They should care about what makes the best television show.


... to the extent the Estate apparently retains veto power over materials that contradict 'canon'.....


kzer_za
Lorien

Thu, 7:24pm


Views: 231
Rule of canonicity #107: There is no canon

On a more serious note, when it comes to Galadriel (and to a lesser degree other things), they should pick and choose from the different versions. Galadriel and Celeborn in its winding textual history is our only detailed source on the early-mid mainland second age, and much of it is quite interesting and parts from the revisions can easily be combined. I would prefer to see both a Galadriel more complicit in the Noldor revolt and Celebrimbor’s rebellion/coup, for example.


Noria
Gondor

Thu, 8:55pm


Views: 221
What Voronwë said

Even if they stick to canon, surely the writers will simplify and streamline so to make everything as easy to understand as possible for the audience, a significant portion of which will not have read any of Tolkien’s writings. That’s part of what adaptors do.

Many of the details being discussed on this board will probably just be ignored. For instance back when FotR was released, I remember a heated discussion about the fact that skipping the Barrow-downs meant Merry didn’t have a magic sword with which to stab the Witch-king and break the spell and so on. But in the movie, having a woman and a Hobbit do the deed with their ordinary blades fulfilled the prophecy and worked just fine. But while we wait for the TV series, all these discussions are interesting.

It will also be interesting to see how far the Estate’s veto power goes. I’m still finding it hard to believe that Amazon would have put out all that money and given away primary creative control over the product


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Fri, 3:37am


Views: 208
Merry's Blade


In Reply To
Many of the details being discussed on this board will probably just be ignored. For instance back when FotR was released, I remember a heated discussion about the fact that skipping the Barrow-downs meant Merry didn’t have a magic sword with which to stab the Witch-king and break the spell and so on. But in the movie, having a woman and a Hobbit do the deed with their ordinary blades fulfilled the prophecy and worked just fine. But while we wait for the TV series, all these discussions are interesting.


On the other hand, who knows what the origin might be for Merry's blade in the films? It might very well still have been a "King's Blade" forged for a Man of Arthedain for the war against the Witch-king.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)


fantasywind
The Shire

Fri, 3:42pm


Views: 169
Now that your mention it :)...


In Reply To

In Reply To
Many of the details being discussed on this board will probably just be ignored. For instance back when FotR was released, I remember a heated discussion about the fact that skipping the Barrow-downs meant Merry didn’t have a magic sword with which to stab the Witch-king and break the spell and so on. But in the movie, having a woman and a Hobbit do the deed with their ordinary blades fulfilled the prophecy and worked just fine. But while we wait for the TV series, all these discussions are interesting.

On the other hand, who knows what the origin might be for Merry's blade in the films? It might very well still have been a "King's Blade" forged for a Man of Arthedain for the war against the Witch-king.


It depends on which version of the film you go by, in cinematic cut, the blades used would be those given to Hobbits by Aragorn on Weathertop, in extended edition, they receive 'noldorin daggers' from Galadriel (extended gift giving scene), but indeed in between book and film this (quite important) plot point is lost.

But indeed sadly I wouldn't expect the showmakers of Amazon to be THAT into intricacies of the Tolkien lore as we discuss on this forum. I naively hoped for faithful adaptation, but we know it's not the case with corporate cash grab attempt, maybe the reported veto right of Tolkien Estate would keep them in line, but we'll see. So much is still uncertain.


Noria
Gondor

Fri, 8:57pm


Views: 151
Yes,

 the EE certainly enabled us to believe that the weapon Galadriel gave Merry was imbued with that same magical quality that made book Merry's attack on the WK successful, but the way it played out in the Theatrical Edition worked too. My point was that some book details can be ignored or glossed over without destroying the spirit or intent of the story.

And that kind of thing will be necessary in this adaptation of Tolkien’s writing for television. A television series is more visual and less "wordy" than a book, it has its own requirements, its own flow and rhythms that are inevitably different from that of a piece of literature. It won’t be able to encompass every plot point and detail.

It’s not corporate cash grabbing for Amazon to need this series to be commercially successful and do whatever they think will ensure that. After all, like movie-making, television production is a business. They aren’t making this series for Tolkien or his book fans out of the goodness of their hearts, though we are of course a part of the target audience. It has to appeal to as many people as possible to survive.

All that being said, it’s interesting to read what people would like to see in this series and discuss what may or may not happen.