The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Main:
"Help us, Obi-Wan, you're our only hope" vs LOTR/TH



CuriousG
Asgardian


Jun 1 2019, 1:30pm


Views: 3635
"Help us, Obi-Wan, you're our only hope" vs LOTR/TH

I was thinking how LOTR/TH brought Tolkien into popular culture to stay, and how there are memorable lines from the movies that get repurposed in other shows, such as "One does not simply walk into..." Even though that line gets reused a lot, I think it's with respect, not mockery.

So I couldn't think of any cheesy or bad lines from LOTR/TH that have entered popular culture such as the one from Star Wars I listed. I personally have no problem with that line, but it is lampooned mercilessly in comedy, with "It's a trap" running a strong second. Can you think of any bad lines from the Tolkien movies that are parodied in shows/blogs/comedy routines/etc, or do the movies escape unscathed?


Otaku-sempai
Avenger


Jun 1 2019, 2:21pm


Views: 3523
Maybe this one...

"Fly, you fools!"

I'm sure that we can find a few more, especially if we look more the films than to the books.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage


Solicitr
Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Jun 1 2019, 3:31pm


Views: 3509
Well,

The LR, yes. TH, not so much. I can't think of a single catchphrase from those that made it into the pop-culture lexicon.


2ndBreffest
Fantastic Four


Jun 1 2019, 4:12pm


Views: 3500
but...

what about TH's classic line, "There could be anything down my trousers."? I'm fairly certain I've seen several porno movies pay homage to that little beauty.


grammaboodawg
Avenger


Jun 1 2019, 4:52pm


Views: 3485
I have another SW one...

... "I've got a bad feeling about this." or "These aren't the droids you're looking for." It comes up in every film. I watch for it like I do Stan Lee or the Wilhelm Scream ;)


LotR/TH (to name a few):
No one tosses a dwarf
You Shall Not Pass!
What about second breakfast?
references to Elevensies
references to Moots
My Captain, My King
There and Back Again
My Precioussssssssss



sample

We have been there and back again.


TIME Google Calendar


(This post was edited by grammaboodawg on Jun 1 2019, 4:54pm)


Otaku-sempai
Avenger


Jun 1 2019, 5:51pm


Views: 3472
This exchange from BotFA...

TAURIEL: Why does it hurt so much?

THRANDUIL: Because it was real.

Pure cheese! Evil

"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage


2ndBreffest
Fantastic Four


Jun 1 2019, 6:17pm


Views: 3462
The cheesiest...

That line falls into the "so bad, its good" category. As much as I dislike these movies, that line, combined with the expression on his face when he delivers it, always gives me a good laugh.


Cirashala
Wakandian


Jun 2 2019, 1:12am


Views: 3426
Now THAT is definitely one we can agree on!

I loathed that entire subplot. Once the Feast of Starlight scene was over, everything after that regarding Tauriel was horrible. That line just about made me want to shoot Tauriel myself and knock Thranduil over the head with a two by four so he'd come back to his senses.

I think Tauriel had the potential to become an amazing original character, but the whole love story just ruined her character, IMHO, and turned her into a complete idiot on the battlefield (screaming your wuv bug's name in a dangerous combat situation with poor to non-existent visibility due to the structure you're in is hands down the most STUPID thing any soldier could do. Gives both yours and his position away to the enemy, and due to that idiocy Kili died and she almost did too. After 600 years of military training, she should have known better than to be so stupid Crazy).

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Happy reading everyone!


(This post was edited by Cirashala on Jun 2 2019, 1:16am)


kzer_za
Fantastic Four

Jun 2 2019, 2:24am


Views: 3421
Looks like meat's back on our menu, boys!

 I do like that scene in all its ridiculousness, though it's a bit of a guilty pleasure...


(This post was edited by kzer_za on Jun 2 2019, 2:24am)


sevilodorf
Justice League


Jun 2 2019, 11:23am


Views: 3365
Godzilla is stealing

One ring to rule them all and turning it to One King to rule them all.

also Sam and his Po-tay-toes gets some play time.

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2ndBreffest
Fantastic Four


Jun 2 2019, 5:49pm


Views: 3331
yes

All of PJ's subplots were bad, but that one stands out above the rest.


hanne
Fantastic Four

Jun 3 2019, 2:25am


Views: 3306
some sort of metrics?

Number of google hits is a very looseygoosey measure, but in lieu of anything better, it looks like you are right and the "only hope" line rules pop culture utterly. But "One Anything to rule them all" and "not simply walking" is up there with not looking for droids. And "my Precious" has Admiral Akbar beat.


STAR WARS

1,700,000,000 - "Help me, *, you're my only hope"
675,000,000 - "These aren't the * you're looking for."
12,800,000 - "It's a trap"
894,000 - "I've got a bad feeling about this." (721,000 for "I have a bad feeling about this")


LORD OF THE RINGS

783,000,000 - "One * to rule them all"
505,000,000 - "one does not simply walk into *"
16,600,000 - "My Precious"
3,080,000 - "You Shall Not Pass!"
1,310,000 - "second breakfast"
154,000 - "Fly, you fools!"
67,800 - "Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys!"
47,900 - "My Captain, My King"
33,000 - "Po-tay-toes"
3,820 - "No one tosses a dwarf"


HOBBIT

9,570,000 - "Because it was real." (probably lots of false positives for unrelated uses)
6,690,000 - "There and Back Again"
(I decline to google this one) "There could be anything down my trousers."


Otaku-sempai
Avenger


Jun 3 2019, 2:48pm


Views: 3240
One more 'Star Wars' meme.

"It's not my fault!" turns up 1,060,000,000 results on Bing! Granted, I'm sure that not nearly all of them are SW-related.

For Curious G: By the way, Leia's exact line is: "Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope."

"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 3 2019, 2:55pm)


Hasuwandil
Fantastic Four

Jun 3 2019, 8:49pm


Views: 3197
How bad is bad?

Is it enough for it to have become a meme? Then I propose: "You have my sword...and you have my bow...and my axe!" (possibly replacing the weapons with something else).


Belegdir
Fantastic Four


Jun 5 2019, 3:30pm


Views: 3113
'It comes in pints?!'

 


CuriousG
Asgardian


Jun 5 2019, 5:50pm


Views: 3100
Thanks for doing the metrics

They are as close to numbers as I think we'll get.

That line from TH "Because it was real" probably would rank as the cheesiest from the whole franchise, but you're right, it's pretty general in the words it uses, so hard to separate it out.

I guess we'll let Star Wars reign with the cheesiest lines to enter pop culture. I think that Yoda-speak probably gets imitated more than Gollum-speak too. Influential he was.


hanne
Fantastic Four

Jun 6 2019, 4:14pm


Views: 2983
true that is

And there's no way of applying the google test for Yoda speak - it can and is used in so many more situations than just gloating over something precious.

Thank you for an interesting discussion! I'm not sad that Tolkien isn't as cheesy as Star Wars :)

I note that the simply walk into Morder line was by Jackson, Walsh and Boyens, while of course One Ring to rule them all and Precious are all Tolkien. I thought "You shall not pass" was Tolkien too but huh, it's not - he wrote "You cannot pass".


CuriousG
Asgardian


Jun 6 2019, 5:09pm


Views: 2973
It's all in the delivery, isn't it?

I think seeing "One simply does not walk into..." in print doesn't convey Sean Bean's memorable delivery, just as movie-Gandalf's lines in Moria are much more dramatic than the way my head canon plays out. There's something about the book description that makes me think book-Gandalf has lowered his voice and is speaking firmly but not terribly emotionally or loudly. I have no idea why, but that's how I picture it (maybe because the Balrog never says a word so the scene is essentially taut with silence?). Whereas movie-Gandalf is emotional as he should be--it's a short but dramatic scene that needs to be punched up for the audience to appreciate it, plus he has to be heard over the music/drums.

For me, the most memorable part of the book passage is Gandalf's cryptic remarks about Secret Fire, Anor, and Udun--it's almost like he's reciting a spell in an arcane language. No one on first read has a clue what he's talking about.


Quote
The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.

‘You cannot pass,’ he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. ‘I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.’

The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.

From out of the shadow a red sword leaped flaming.

Glamdring glittered white in answer.

There was a ringing clash and a stab of white fire. The Balrog fell back, and its sword flew up in molten fragments. The wizard swayed on the bridge, stepped back a pace, and then again stood still.

‘You cannot pass!’ he said.



Cirashala
Wakandian


Jun 6 2019, 5:47pm


Views: 2969
I love that!

This scene is where Gandalf essentially reveals exactly WHO he is and exactly WHO sent him (Eru Illuvatar/God) on his mission. A "Servant of the Secret Fire"-well, that secret fire is Eru Himself (note he says that, not servant of the Valar ;)

Wielder of the flame of Arnor- the flame that Eru instilled in the world at its creation that only comes from Him.

Flame of Udun- flame of hell (Udun is hell in Sindarin)
It is very subtly woven in, but Tolkien's faith shines very much here in those simple two sentences.

I do wonder if the rest of the fellowship picked up on it though, or if they were a little too busy running to get it. I bet if he had said that under any other circumstance at least Legolas and Aragorn would have been completely dumbfounded (knowing he got sent by the Valar is one thing; that he was sent directly by Eru Himself would most definitely get their attention).

Not sure if the others would have any clue what those two sentences really meant, but those two certainly would have.

My writing and novels:

My Hobbit Fanfiction

My historical novel print and kindle version

My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders

You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.

Happy reading everyone!


hanne
Fantastic Four

Jun 6 2019, 6:50pm


Views: 2962
Yeah!

Sean Bean's suppressed frustration was great. And Ian McKellen took

‘You cannot pass,’ he said.

and dialled it all the way up to

'You! Shall! NOT! PAASSS!!," he scenery-chewed, and it was awesome indeed :)

But so is the book, I'm glad you quoted the whole thing. The tension is incredible, and Gandalf's power is mysterious, terrifying and numinous. If I had to choose the most effective delivery of the scene, I'd give the book the edge, as good as the movie version was.


CuriousG
Asgardian


Jun 6 2019, 8:19pm


Views: 2968
It deserves its own explanatory appendix

and never made any sense to me until I read The Silmarillion. I think you're right about who would and wouldn't understand him. I'm assuming that Aragorn's upbringing in Rivendell included a decent education on the spiritual foundations of Middle-earth. With Legolas, I'd assume he knew, though it's hard to say.

I doubt that Boromir would know since he was no "wizard's pupil," but even given Denethor's scornful use of that phase, I think when Gandalf told him "For I also am a steward. Did you not know?", that Gandalf is showing he assumes Denethor knows exactly what he means--that he's on a mission, from Valinor at least. Hence Denethor knows about Valar and Maiar, etc. Numenor had that big temple to Eru, so he should know about him too.

But with the hobbits and Gimli, my assumption is that Gandal'fs words were over their heads.


Solicitr
Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Jun 7 2019, 10:44pm


Views: 2867
Denethor

was in many ways very like Faramir, which is perhaps why they didn't get along. He was scholarly and perceptive, but used his insight for advantage rather than empathy and "was sooner moved to scorn than pity."

I've believed ever since the movies came out that John Noble was completely wrong for the role (much as I like him as an actor); Denethor would much better have been played by someone of the Basil Rathbone/Peter Cushing/Charles Dance sort.


(This post was edited by Solicitr on Jun 7 2019, 10:45pm)


CuriousG
Asgardian


Jun 7 2019, 11:07pm


Views: 2863
Yeah, movie-Denethor didn't work for me

I understand the movie didn't have time to develop his character like the book and instead started with him as a neurotic, the way he ended, but it still didn't work. And yeah, even the face was wrong: Denethor was old and probably wrinkled, but I see him as having very sharp features even then. (like Peter Cushing)


Otaku-sempai
Avenger


Jun 8 2019, 1:27am


Views: 2849
I would blame the screenplay for that.


In Reply To
I've believed ever since the movies came out that John Noble was completely wrong for the role (much as I like him as an actor); Denethor would much better have been played by someone of the Basil Rathbone/Peter Cushing/Charles Dance sort.


I don't think Noble is at fault here; he gave Peter Jackson the performance that the writer/producer/director wanted.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage


VeArkenstone
Fantastic Four

Jun 8 2019, 7:42pm


Views: 2768
"RUN!" Gandalf gives this advice at least 6 to 8 times to Men, Dwarves & Hobbits.

 

Please, call me Ve.


Otaku-sempai
Avenger


Jun 8 2019, 8:17pm


Views: 1699
Is Gandalf really the Doctor?


In Reply To
"RUN!" Gandalf gives this advice at least 6 to 8 times to Men, Dwarves & Hobbits.

Are we sure he's from Valinor and not Gallifrey?

"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 8 2019, 8:18pm)


Lio
Fantastic Four


Jun 9 2019, 2:23am


Views: 1677
Legolas, what do you elf eyes see?

They're taking the Hobbits to Isengard!

Doot doo doot doot doo doo doo doo

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." — Dean O'Gorman (Fili)

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Omnigeek
Fantastic Four


Jun 16 2019, 10:39pm


Views: 1641
Never good


In Reply To
TAURIEL: Why does it hurt so much?

THRANDUIL: Because it was real.

Pure cheese! Evil


In Reply To
That line falls into the "so bad, its good" category.


No. It doesn’t. It was just bad.


Paulo Gabriel
Fantastic Four

Jun 16 2019, 11:02pm


Views: 1633
Omnigeek...

good to see you around again! For all intents and purposes, some of the members from the past here (and that includes you!) were pretty much dead. Laugh


(This post was edited by Paulo Gabriel on Jun 16 2019, 11:09pm)


2ndBreffest
Fantastic Four


Jun 20 2019, 11:25pm


Views: 1289
well, yes...

you are right, it really is a horrible line. But you have to admit, it really serves as a perfect ending to a completely terrible subplot.


VeArkenstone
Fantastic Four

Jun 21 2019, 7:54pm


Views: 1279
I think he is doctor of sorts, more in the Elvish tradition I think.

"Run" is probably the best advice he can give much of the time. Fortunately, it seems to work, especially in desperate circumstances.

I don't know where Gallifrey is Middle Earth-wise. We have one here in Ohio, a very small, mostly Amish community.

Please, call me Ve.


Otaku-sempai
Avenger


Jun 22 2019, 12:27pm


Views: 1273
Gandalf a Time Lord?

Well, the Gallifrey that I was referring to is another (fictitious) planet.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage


noWizardme
Asgardian


Jun 22 2019, 3:31pm


Views: 1256
Biggest sonic screwdriver of the lot, disguised as a staff. // ;)

 

~~~~~~
"Go down to the shovel store and take your pick." Traditional prank played on dwarves when they start down the mine.


CuriousG
Asgardian


Jun 22 2019, 4:45pm


Views: 1250
And the staff/screwdriver was a precursor to the light saber, bringing us back to Obi-wan.

I'm still waiting for him to help me. He's my only hope.


VeArkenstone
Fantastic Four

Jun 23 2019, 7:13pm


Views: 1174
A Time Lord on Gallifrey?

 

Please, call me Ve.


Otaku-sempai
Avenger


Jun 24 2019, 12:32am


Views: 1167
Are you having a laugh, Ve?

Or are you unfamiliar with Doctor Who? I just can't tell. In any case, yes, Gallifrey is the name of the home world of the Time Lords.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 24 2019, 12:39am)


VeArkenstone
Fantastic Four

Jun 28 2019, 6:29pm


Views: 1093
My apologies. Did not understand what you were asking.

   
He may be a time warrior as related to the Dr. Who series, but am not sure since I have not watched the series.

I think he is a warrior as related to the Tolkien's works, time warrior I don't kno tho. (o.k., let me talk myself through this) I may be rusty on some of this, but wasn't he a Maia in Valinor, where there probably is no time as we know it, studied with Nienna who taught him compassion for others pain and hung out with Galadrial before being sent on his mission to Arda? Then he spent about 8,000 years on Arda fighting the darkness. This would make him a time warrior, I think.

A question please: Do you think Gandalf had conscious memory of his time as a Maia, or is it like us, once we are born into these bodies, the past becomes hazy and almost impossible to remember. I think he had at least some unconscious memory of his studies with Nienna because of his compassion for others. And maybe unconscious memory of having known Galadrial.

I think Galadrial has conscious memory of having been in Valinor, but maybe not all elfs do?
This all may be answered already in the books, but have not come across it yet or need a refresher course. Thanks.

Please, call me Ve.


(This post was edited by VeArkenstone on Jun 28 2019, 6:40pm)


Otaku-sempai
Avenger


Jun 28 2019, 8:23pm


Views: 1063
I was just having a little fun.

Obviously Gandalf wouldn't really have been a Time Lord (at least, not in the way that I meant). As fun as it would be to see the Doctor visit Middle-earth, the two franchises would never in a million years officially cross over. It would be more likely to see Radagast the Brown revealed to be later known as the wizard Merlin.

I think that there must be some sense of the passage of time in the Undying Lands, though it might flow differently than it does in the natural world. Gandalf, as Olórin, might have previously come to Middle-earth as part of the forces of Valinor in the War of Wrath, if not earlier. However, as one of the Istari, he arrived around the year 1000 of the Third Age; he had been in Middle-earth for about 2,019 years when he was dragged from the Bridge of Khazad-dûm--not even close to 8,000 years.

Yes, Gandalf would have had memories of dwelling in Valinor, but those memories would have been dimmed by his mortal shell, just has his powers were more limited in Middle-earth. He might have remembered his time in Valinor as though it was a dream. Galadriel might well have first known him as Olórin.

I would say that any of the Eldar who had actually lived in Valinor would remember it well. Keep in mind that the Elves originally came from the East of Middle-earth and not all of them had ever been to the Undying Lands.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 28 2019, 8:24pm)


VeArkenstone
Fantastic Four

Jul 12 2019, 5:12pm


Views: 903
Time Flows. The Line of Durin.

Thanks! This helps me understand the nature of the Eldar and the Istari and Valinar, and the possible different flows of time in Middle Earth. You have me wondering about this time thing. Not sure where I came up with Gandalf's Ardan age of 8,000, happy to know his true age.

If I may please ask one more question, I would appreciate it: I have been reading Dwarf history in the Appendices. I think I have read that the Line of Durin never failed in one book, and in a different book that the Line of Durin was broken. In the Appendices Dwarf Family Tree, it does show that Dain II Ironfoot became King after the BoFA. Would he count as a direct descendant of Durin since he was Thorin, Frerin and Dis' 1st cousin? It seems to me that Dain II Ironfoot would count as a direct descendant of Durin. Was the Line of Durin broken possibly when Dain II Ironfoot became King, or with the death of Durin VII (The Last One)? Would the Dwarves have had Kings of the Royal Line going into the 4th Age?

Thank you so much.

Please, call me Ve.


(This post was edited by VeArkenstone on Jul 12 2019, 5:18pm)


Otaku-sempai
Avenger


Jul 13 2019, 1:29pm


Views: 891
Durin's Heirs


In Reply To
If I may please ask one more question, I would appreciate it: I have been reading Dwarf history in the Appendices. I think I have read that the Line of Durin never failed in one book, and in a different book that the Line of Durin was broken. In the Appendices Dwarf Family Tree, it does show that Dain II Ironfoot became King after the BoFA. Would he count as a direct descendant of Durin since he was Thorin, Frerin and Dis' 1st cousin? It seems to me that Dain II Ironfoot would count as a direct descendant of Durin. Was the Line of Durin broken possibly when Dain II Ironfoot became King, or with the death of Durin VII (The Last One)? Would the Dwarves have had Kings of the Royal Line going into the 4th Age?

Thank you so much.


Well, the line descending from the eldest sons was broken with the death of Thorin Oakenshield. However, Thorin was succeeded by his cousin Dáin Ironfoot, so the Line of Durin was maintained though Dáin II all the way though Durin VII in the Fourth Age.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)


VeArkenstone
Fantastic Four

Jul 25 2019, 7:40pm


Views: 844
Thank you.

 

Please, call me Ve.