The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Middle-earth TV Series Discussion:
'Lord of the Rings' TV Series Being Considered By Amazon



Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Nov 4 2017, 12:50am


Views: 16910
     'Lord of the Rings' TV Series Being Considered By Amazon


Quote
Amazon and Warner Bros. Television are in talks for a series based on J.R.R. Tolkein's Lord of the Rings, Variety reports.

WB and the Tolkein estate are said to be shopping the property around, with Amazon emerging as the early frontrunner. No deal has yet been made, but Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos is said to be personally involved in the negotiations with WB TV and the estate of late LOTR author, J.R.R. Tolkein - a highly unusual procedure, which may convey just how serious Aamazon is about closing a deal.


http://comicbook.com/...gs-amazon-tv-series/


Lissuin
Valinor


Nov 4 2017, 12:59am


Views: 15088
     Wow! Just wow.

Shocked Unimpressed Smile


Eldy
Gondor


Nov 4 2017, 1:27am


Views: 15216
     Pre-emptive reminder that Variety is almost certainly wrong about the Estate being involved

Original article here: http://variety.com/...s-amazon-1202606519/


Quote
The studio and the Tolkien estate have been shopping a series based on the classic fantasy novels and their assortment of hobbits, wizards, and warriors, sparking a competitive situation from which Amazon has emerged as the frontrunner. Representatives for Amazon and Warner Bros. declined to comment.


The Estate does not have the legal right to "shop around" a LOTR screen adaptation even if they were inclined to do so (and there's no reason to think their opinions about those have suddenly changed). The most likely scenario is that either Variety or their source confused the Estate and Middle-earth Enterprises, which owns the adaptation rights to TH and LOTR.



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



(This post was edited by Eldorion on Nov 4 2017, 1:28am)


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Nov 4 2017, 1:33am


Views: 15130
     Reboot out of the question?

So this mean Amazon can't reboot LOTR?


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Nov 4 2017, 1:40am


Views: 15077
     Is it April and no one told me?

Though, these days, this really shouldn't surprise me.

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen


Eldy
Gondor


Nov 4 2017, 1:59am


Views: 15047
     They just need permission from someone other than the Estate

Tolkien sold the screen rights to The Hobbit and LOTR before his death, so the Estate has never held those rights. They are currently owned by the Saul Zaentz Company d/b/a Middle-earth Enterprises. (Well, some of the rights to The Hobbit are held by MGM but it doesn't seem like that'll be an issue here.) Middle-earth Enterprises then licenses the rights out to various content-producers, including Warner Bros and, potentially, Amazon as well now.

The Estate still gets a share of the money from adaptations, but they don't have any control over them and they're not the ones who decide if an adaptation can move forward or not.



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



(This post was edited by Eldorion on Nov 4 2017, 1:59am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 4 2017, 3:15am


Views: 15016
     Or...


In Reply To
So this mean Amazon can't reboot LOTR?


More likely the report is wrong and meant Middle-earth Enterprises, not the Tolkien Estate.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 4 2017, 4:00am


Views: 15067
     Middle-earth Enterprises

From the Middle-earth Enterprises website:


Quote
Middle-earth Enterprises owns exclusive worldwide rights to motion picture, merchandising, stage and other rights in certain literary works of J.R.R. Tolkien including The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit. We have produced and licensed films, stage productions and merchandise based on these Tolkien works for more than thirty-five years.


Link: http://www.middleearth.com/#about

This makes me wonder about the veracity of the Variety piece.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Lindele
Gondor

Nov 4 2017, 4:20am


Views: 15067
     My first thought wasn’t that Variety was wrong about the estate

But wrong about ‘The Lord of the Rings’ being the title. People often use LOTR when referencing ‘Middle-earth.’
This is just as likely/unlikely as them getting it wrong about the estate, but perhaps it is just wishful thinking on my part. I’d much rather see some new material than a LOTR reboot.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 4 2017, 4:23am


Views: 15012
     Christopher Tolkien doesn't like adaptations


In Reply To
But wrong about ‘The Lord of the Rings’ being the title. People often use LOTR when referencing ‘Middle-earth.’
This is just as likely/unlikely as them getting it wrong about the estate, but perhaps it is just wishful thinking on my part. I’d much rather see some new material than a LOTR reboot.


The involvement of Warner Bros., and Christopher Tolkien's well-known objections to adaptations of his father's works speak against this interpretation.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 4 2017, 4:23am)


Lindele
Gondor

Nov 4 2017, 4:25am


Views: 14926
     Of course

But you never know. I’m sure you’re right.
But you never know.


Ent Wife
The Shire


Nov 4 2017, 4:30am


Views: 14982
     I noticed someone mentioned that in the Variety comments section.

It will be interesting to see if there's any subsequent follow-up on this story.


jlj93byu
Rivendell

Nov 4 2017, 4:30am


Views: 14941
     What amazing timing

I am amazed at the coincidental timing of this announcement. Of course, nothing is official, but the mere potential of more Middle-earth is exciting.

So why do I say the timing is amazing? Just moments before I saw this article, I had been watching the appendices on Battle of the Five Armies, and I had just watched "A Last Desperate Stand," which features the last day Ian McKellan portrayed Gandalf, as well as Orlando Bloom as Legolas and Evangeline Lilly as Tauriel. Seeing all these actors wrap up and leave their characters behind really made me emotional, and had me longing for more Middle-earth. Of course, this announcement means if anything happens, it will likely be aesthetically much different from Peter Jackson's Middle-earth, but any chance to see more stories from Tolkien's rich legendarium is most welcome.


Eldy
Gondor


Nov 4 2017, 4:31am


Views: 15000
     It's possible I guess, but I'd be surprised

The Tolkien Estate legally can't sanction an adaptation of late Third Age material that is drawn from the LOTR Appendices (or adaptations of TH and LOTR proper). They could, theoretically, sell or license out the rights to adapt The Silmarillion in whole or in part, but I think that if that was the case Variety would probably have mentioned it. It's possible they got the two books confused, but I think it's more likely that they confused the Tolkien Estate and Middle-earth Enterprises, which happens all the time even among people who should know better. It was even worse back when the latter was called Tolkien Enterprises.



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



(This post was edited by Eldorion on Nov 4 2017, 4:32am)


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Nov 4 2017, 5:59am


Views: 14905
     Dream come true!

I've been hoping for something like this for years! I never imagined we'd be getting it so soon though. I can't wait to see a fresh take on the series! After finally listening to the radio drama last year (and going through it again a few weeks ago), I've really come to appreciate having multiple (complete) adaptions. And I want more.

But if they don't include Tom Bombadil...


Silverlode
Forum Admin


Nov 4 2017, 6:01am


Views: 14890
     That was my thought as well.

I don't think they can make any sort of LOTR series without getting them involved unless their rights are expiring. So whoever wrote this story either doesn't know the difference between M-e Enterprises and the Estate (entirely possible, there's a reason we dubbed entertainment journalists "neekerbreekers") or got bad information.

I'm taking this with a whole shakerful of salt until more credible info comes to light.

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




cats16
Valinor


Nov 4 2017, 7:20am


Views: 14883
     I'm waiting for more info

The details in the article probably came from Amazon, which makes sense why we're not getting precise language about what's going on. I'm going to sit tight and wait to hear more concrete news before getting too fussed up, knowing firsthand how wobbly these things can be behind closed doors.

Still, cool news I didn't expect to read this evening. No one at work had heard any whispers of this.

Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!




(This post was edited by cats16 on Nov 4 2017, 7:21am)


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Nov 4 2017, 10:22am


Views: 14866
     Young strider prequel, Angmar vs Arnor, Oath of Eorl?

What about making adaptations of these things than rebooting PJ LOTR, which is still today considered as a masterpiece? And The Hobbit trilogy is farily still new.


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Nov 4 2017, 11:08am


Views: 14843
     Akallabêth?

What about the fall of Numenor and the War of the Last Alliance?


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Nov 4 2017, 12:25pm


Views: 14880
     It could be the Sil or one of the other books like The Children of Hurin

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



squire
Half-elven


Nov 4 2017, 12:29pm


Views: 14912
     "a series based on the classic fantasy novels and their assortment of hobbits, wizards, and warriors"

In commenting on this story, it's important to use the actual Variety story, not the secondary reporting from comicbook.com, or the tertiary commentary of blogs, forums, etc. that will echo and possibly further distort the original Nov. 3 story by Daniel Holloway.

One thing to note is that this probe by Amazon reflects an already-announced redirection of their TV production efforts "away from niche, naturalistic series such as 'Transparent' and 'Mozart in the Jungle' and toward large-scale genre programming with potential for broad international appeal." This suggests that the proposed production will be almost entirely based on audience expectations coming from the existing Jackson films, rather than Tolkien's books.

Another interesting angle from the Variety report is that the proposal is very vague about how "The Lord of the Rings" actually relates to the series. As per my header, the series is "based on" the book's "assortment of hobbits, wizards, and warriors". This may be Holloway's own shorthand for Tolkien's characters, but it reads to me like a very (again) generic recasting of Tolkien into a standard "fantasy" mix based on games, art, and other stories and series that have been, at best, inspired by Tolkien rather than actually based on, or adapted from, The Lord of the Rings. Most specifically, this feels like someone thinking how to compete with, or at least reproduce the success of, Game of Thrones on its own territory.

As so many have already said, it's too early to do more than speculate on the news report's wording, including the almost certain confusion between the Tolkien Estate and Zaentz's Middle-earth Enterprises organization. (On the other hand, note Holloway's mention of the actual Tolkien Estate's settlement with Warner Brothers over licensing rights and fees, which suggests at least some familiarity with the ins and outs of Tolkien's posthumous media empire!) But I wonder if this doesn't feel like, not a 'reboot' of The Lord of the Rings in the closely adapted format of the New Line movies, but a much looser TV series featuring the characters, names, places and events of the War of the Ring in, essentially, a new story or stories revolving around the periphery of Tolkien's actual plot? More sex, more fighting, more intrigue, more up to date 21st century characterizations? Kind of like a LotR with all Tauriel, all the time?



squire online:
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Nov 4 2017, 12:29pm


Views: 14819
     Strange Days Indeed

This could be good or it could be very bad.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Nov 4 2017, 12:34pm


Views: 14880
     The fact that the source is Variety

gives me some hope. I am certain that there are discussions and that they are relatively advanced or Variety would not have went with the story, But will they pan out? Only time will tell.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Nov 4 2017, 12:46pm


Views: 14882
     All Tauriel, all the time...

You certainly know how to rain on a guys parade.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Nov 4 2017, 1:08pm


Views: 14773
     Should not reboot LOTR, but...

I won't mind they do something with The Hobbit. Also, I want to see a adaptation of Angmar and Arnor.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Nov 4 2017, 1:37pm


Views: 10367
     IF Kangi Ska can come out of Retirement? So Can BOMBY

Your Everlasting intrepid Traveler
just passed his 50th Anniversary
of falling Hook, Line & sinker for
Middle EARTH.

This announcement seems to be a
Preliminary Announcement
to Gauge how Huge a Worldwide Interest
in Tolkien is still here today.

SoOOoo maybe itzz TIME to start a
Campaign to bring ANYTHING Tolkien
to current mass media.

How would we do this?

1. Contact Amazon.
2. List the Stories We, as his biggest Fans would want adapted First.
3. Many Back Stories were left out.

Old Forest/Bombadil/Goldberry/Tombs on the Moors.
That could be a Stand Alone Story.

The History of the Istari, the 5 Wizards.
Finding out what happened to the
2 Blue Wizards could be really Exciting.
Maybe in the Deserts of the EAST
with Wereworms

Mountain/Cave Trolls & why they would turn
to Stone when exposed to Daylight??

Radagast should get his own Back Story.

The Beornings/Shape Shifters History.
How did they gain this ability?

More about the Ents & Entwives. Would the First AGE
story.

The Battle @ Angmar & Thranduil losing his Wife, when Legolas was too young to remember her?

Some History of Dol Guldur & it's occupants.

Dain & the Iron Hills.

Bomby izz only making suggestions
Cheers Gaffers.

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 4 2017, 2:27pm


Views: 10392
     Long time no see, Kangi!


In Reply To
The fact that the source is Variety gives me some hope. I am certain that there are discussions and that they are relatively advanced or Variety would not have went with the story, But will they pan out? Only time will tell.


If the project actually does revolve around The Lord of the Rings specifically then someone is definitely fact-challenged; but on reflection, I realize that it might be the source, not the reporter. We all have to remember that this it very tentative at this stage and could easily fall through. There might not be any series, or it could end up somewhere else (NetFlix, a cable network, etc.).

On the other hand, I do like the idea of a LotR adaptation that can take its time and develop the story without shortcuts and omissions and alterations such as:
- compressing time by eliminating a decade and a half between Bilbo's birthday party and the War of the Ring.
- cutting out the Old Forest, Tom Bombadil, the Barrow-downs, and the Scouring of the Shire.
- Aragorn bringing the Scrubbing Bubbles of the Dead to Minas Tirith instead of bringing reinforcements from southern Gondor.

Of course, there is also the prospect of having to deal with the reality of modern Hollywood storytelling. I loves me some diversity, but at the same time I don't want to see changes just for the sake of political correctness. I also don't need to see characters knocking boots for the sake of ratings.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 4 2017, 2:33pm)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Nov 4 2017, 2:33pm


Views: 10316
     I was wishing for a BBC adaption

I do not trust Bozos to handle Tolkien's work. But we will see. It is all very tentative and could go a thousand ways. i might even live to see it happen. KS

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 4 2017, 2:41pm


Views: 10280
     Hey there, Bomby!

It's great to hear from you and I'm glad to know that you're still kicking' around.

As I was saying, all this still seems very tentative and there are several questions brought up by the story.

The Tolkien Estate is probably not involved. Either the reporter or the source probably meant to say it was Middle-earth Enterprises (as in The Saul Zaentz Company). Either that, or the project would involve other Middle-earth works that are not The Lord of the Rings nor The Hobbit. However, I just don't see Christopher Tolkien and the Estate being connected to this.

I am definitely interested to see what is revealed in follow-up stories and in seeing where this goes (if anywhere).

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 4 2017, 2:42pm)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Nov 4 2017, 3:54pm


Views: 10231
     Sorry I meant to say hello.

Herllo!Smile

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Nov 4 2017, 3:55pm


Views: 10395
     Additional Info check this out

https://deadline.com/2017/11/lord-of-the-rings-series-eyed-warner-bros-tv-amazon-1202201636/

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Nov 4 2017, 4:03pm


Views: 10302
     Leave LOTR alone....

I say adapt young Strider, War In The North and Angmar\Arnor.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 4 2017, 4:16pm


Views: 10272
     Hmmm.


In Reply To
https://deadline.com/2017/11/lord-of-the-rings-series-eyed-warner-bros-tv-amazon-1202201636/


So, if the Tolkien Estate is involved at all, it might just be as a silent partner that will receive some moneys as agreed upon in its settlement with Warner Bros. without having any other part in the project. That might make sense.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 4 2017, 4:23pm


Views: 10311
     Maybe later.


In Reply To
I say adapt young Strider, War In The North and Angmar\Arnor.


I don't see that happening right off the bat, unless Aragorn's backstory and the battles in the north are incorporated into a series adaptation of The Lord of the Rings. I'm confident that adapting the trilogy would be the first step in any case. The question becomes: how loose or faithful would be such an adaptation? In a long-form retelling, I could see much or all that was cut from the Peter Jackson films be included here, and more besides. That could be a good thing or it could be awful. The requirements of long-form storytelling for television would have a huge impact on pacing, budget, filming locations, casting and other considerations.

I will admit that the story of Aragorn's early travels provides the possibility of adding some diversity without it seeming forced or arbitrary. I can get behind that.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 4 2017, 4:28pm)


squire
Half-elven


Nov 4 2017, 4:44pm


Views: 10276
     Art or Cash?

The story remains strange, but obviously something is in play.

As we've already speculated, the "rights" to LotR no longer belong to "the Tolkien Estate", which Andreeva refers to repeatedly as the seller. Her gossipy (repeatedly, "I hear...") and unattributed news seems to back up the previous Variety story, but the only new thing she adds is a hard figure of a quarter billion dollars for rights payments up front, before any production budget, which she says these days is a standard $150 million per season (Season? season!!! Writers, man your keyboards: Aragorn divorces Arwen; Frodo visits Numenor; Sam acquires a Dragon Ring; Saruman comes back to life as a Nazgul; Eowyn falls for Prince Amroth ....).

The rights figure, according to her "industry" sources, is "insane"; and she adds the mysterious note that "Plus, I hear that the rights for a TV series in the Lord of the Rights do not encompass all characters and are limited."

Who can resist believing a writer whose Freudian slips so echo the entire mindset of this deal that neither she nor her editors caught it?



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Nov 4 2017, 6:35pm


Views: 10232
     spinoffs

Yeah, I don't see them spending large amounts of money just to make what essentially would be a spinoff. Maybe if the main series does well, they could do other stories later.

If this does get off the ground, I wonder how they'll handle the lack of female roles, which will probably be seen as a problem. Will they do something similar to the movies or go even further?


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Nov 4 2017, 7:01pm


Views: 10198
     I took some time to mull this over...

...before following up my previous post, because I didn't want to come out as negative on impulse.

But I'm going to stand tall and still say that I don't want this project to happen. I know many of you disagree, and I respect that. But I find the chances of this leading to something positive very slim.

PJ's LotR films are modern classics. Regardless of what one thinks of The Hobbit films, the LotR trilogy was critically acclaimed and broke box office records (at the time). It received 17 Academy Awards, including the very first (and only) Best Picture win for a fantasy film.

I know that LotR is a novel, first and foremost, and many of you who were not as thrilled by the films as most were would like to see another adaptation. That's valid.

And, yet, PJ's films are so important to me, and I imagine to many, many people. They are the reason I love film the way I do. They were a major part of my development, not only as a cinephile and (amateur) filmmaker, but as a PERSON. I don't want their legacy diluted by a cash-in remake by a studio that just wants their own "Game of Thrones" (which is what's happening here).

I'm not entirely adverse to someone tackling another adaptation at some point in the future, but for the love of god, it's only been a little over 15 years since The Fellowship of the Ring. For a classic film series such as this, that's barely a drop in the bucket.

Not every adaptation leads to the greatness achieved by PJ's films, nor what HBO's masterful adaptation of George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire has achieved. This could lead somewhere very bad, and even somewhere that's not even representative of Tolkien.

I love Tom Bombadil and the Scouring of the Shire as much as the rest of you. But that is why we have the books, is it not?

Perhaps some day, when the time is right, we will have on screen incarnations of those things, but for now I'm perfectly content finding them between the pages of the good professor's masterful prose.

Of course, as will surely be the case, what I want will have no bearing on what materializes...

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen

(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Nov 4 2017, 7:09pm)


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Nov 4 2017, 7:16pm


Views: 10187
     Eowyn and Galadriel?

Why not have them in a more active role than in the movies? I don't want another Arwen taking over Glorfindel again, but keep the love stuff between Aragorn and Arwen.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 4 2017, 7:31pm


Views: 10112
     I agree.


In Reply To
Yeah, I don't see them spending large amounts of money just to make what essentially would be a spinoff. Maybe if the main series does well, they could do other stories later.


Such a show would have to be a huge success before any spin off would even be considered. That's why I suggest that background material from the Appendices might be worked into the series itself. Spin offs from the Peter Jackson films would be far more likely, and the closest we've come to that so far is as video games.


In Reply To
If this does get off the ground, I wonder how they'll handle the lack of female roles, which will probably be seen as a problem. Will they do something similar to the movies or go even further?


For starters, I hope no one seriously considers turning Merry, Pippin or Sam into Hobbit-lasses. Nor would I want to see any of them replaced by--say--Rose Cotton. If we get more backstory and side story then that could include more of Arwen and Galadriel (not to mention Galadriel at Dol Guldur during the War of the Ring). The roles of existing female characters could be further expanded, even without breaking canon (again, Galadriel at Dol Guldur). Eowyn is already used just enough; the only improvement from the films would be to better develop her budding romance with Faramir.

If the producers want to keep a connection to the Jackson films then Tauriel could accompany Legolas to the Council of Elrond. She could be kept around by connecting her to events taking place in Rhovanion at the same time as the main story. I'm not sure what else could be done that wouldn't seem intrusive and artificial.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 4 2017, 7:40pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 4 2017, 7:39pm


Views: 10121
     The Women


In Reply To
Eowyn and Galadriel? Why not have them in a more active role than in the movies? I don't want another Arwen taking over Glorfindel again, but keep the love stuff between Aragorn and Arwen.


See my last post concerning Eowyn and Galadriel. I also would not like to see Arwen again replace Glorfindel, but we could see her backstory with Aragorn that was deleted from Jackson's adaptation restored and even expanded upon.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Ent Wife
The Shire


Nov 4 2017, 10:12pm


Views: 10087
     Well said, Squire.

"but a much looser TV series featuring the characters, names, places and events of the War of the Ring in, essentially, a new story or stories revolving around the periphery of Tolkien's actual plot?"

Yeah, basically like they did with The Shannara Chronicles ... and I don't mean that in a good way, unfortunately. Unsure


Ent Wife
The Shire


Nov 4 2017, 10:21pm


Views: 10087
     On a positive note, though...

...it's great that this story has created some new buzz. Cool


cats16
Valinor


Nov 4 2017, 10:30pm


Views: 10080
     Thoughts

Nellie Andreeva's story does little to clear up exactly what's going on here, at least for me. But I have more questions:

The part about the ~$250 million dollar rights payments leaves me wondering whether the situation involves an outright purchase/transferral of Middle-earth Enterprises' rights (or at least something more substantial than a one-time exploitation). If we're assuming that Middle-earth Enterprises--not the Estate--is indeed actively shopping alongside Warner TV, I then wonder what is exactly being pitched in the supposed 'pitch' Amazon, Netflix and HBO have heard. With no talent, creative auspices or concept on the table, it almost seems to me that this deal is more directly concerned with which elements in the Middle-earth stories are wholly retained by Middle-earth Enterprises and can be fully exploited by any entity that acquires outright said rights downstream. Warner's is involved here too, so this is all conjecture that's above me but makes me intrigued as to what exactly is being 'shopped,' since ordinarily I associate that language with a pitch that contains at least *some* semblance of creative auspices.

The general rule is to distrust numerical figures floated on Deadline such as these, so I won't overstep in suggesting anything that isn't in the reports we've seen. But I am quite curious what's going on here.

Edit: And yes, the notion of a series vaguely 'inspired by' LOTR is a different can of worms.

Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!




(This post was edited by cats16 on Nov 4 2017, 10:32pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 4 2017, 10:37pm


Views: 10094
     Not even sure about Middle-earth Enterprises

Honestly, cats, I'm not even sure that Middle-earth Enterprises would have any direct involvement unless Warner Bros rights lapsed and reverted back. On the other hand, I also don't think that there is any provision that would allow the rights to revert to the Tolkien Estate.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


cats16
Valinor


Nov 4 2017, 10:53pm


Views: 10060
     Reversions

Ah, I meant to add a thought about reversions! Right, that's assuming some sort of agreement that alters the WB/Middle-earth Enterprises situation comes about. I'd say it's safe to assume Middle-earth Enterprises would exist as a wholly passive producer in whatever potential deal comes of this. All of this makes my head spin!

Honestly, since it's Amazon we're dealing with here, I wouldn't rule out anything if Bezos really wants this. If I'm Warner Bros, I'd be open to another entity swooping in to front all or much of the massive upfront costs associated with this kind of project and allowing me to retain some downstream cable/merchandising/etc fees.

Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!




cats16
Valinor


Nov 4 2017, 11:23pm


Views: 10102
     Good to see you here, Bomby! //

Smile

Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!




SirDennisC
Half-elven


Nov 5 2017, 1:43am


Views: 10093
     Should this come to pass, my desire

Is that it not be overdone... production design on par with early seasons of History Channel’s Vikings or Netflix’s The Last Kingdom would be more than adequate to bring Middle-earth to life. I would also hope that they focus on characters, relationships, and story more than dazzling effects.

In any event, the timing is right since GoT fans will be at a loose end soon. I welcome this news and am eager to hear of any developments.



Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Nov 5 2017, 3:41am


Views: 10015
     Budget

I think the budget would almost force them to keep it more toned down and character focused. Even if they have a big budget for a series like this, they'll probably have to be conservative with how they use CGI, which is a good thing.


Fichtenbrenner
The Shire


Nov 5 2017, 3:59am


Views: 10050
     I'm sorry, Sir Dennis, but ...

I would be very disappointed, if such a series had a "production design on par with early seasons of History Channel’s Vikings or Netflix’s The Last Kingdom". These shows were rightfully mocked by guys like Matt Easton and Lindybeige on youtube. I also think that GoT is vastly overrated, often having really bad looking designs for at least of its armor, helmets and weapons. Furthermore, I hope that a LotR series won't try to emulate the sensationalist character that Got has, which Tolkien would surely not enjoy.


(This post was edited by Fichtenbrenner on Nov 5 2017, 4:01am)


Bombadil
Half-elven


Nov 5 2017, 10:27am


Views: 10003
     THE Once & Future King of Film...?

Wondering about PJ & Weta's involvement..
Has he had a
Chance to Comment?

hazz hiz Worldwide
Rights & Contract
ended,
with Warners
& Saul Z..?

Shouldn't he have @ least SOME say
in THIS
"New Generation's Dangling DOINGS"
{Movie Gossip}

Bomby wantz some imput from Wellington
before Applying much thought
to thiz.

IF THESE New Players {AMAZON Executives} Intentions are honorable about JRRT's Source Material?

FINE
or THEY
would,
Could
be just
wanting to
CLONE the Great Work
...PJ & Weta... did?

15 years does allow some ?
..a new generation
to grow up watching..

BUT if this turns into some low Grade production
or
Fan FIX..

NOT interested

xo YOUR EVERlasting bomby

(sent via a sly Fox, for the OLD Forest.}

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Nov 5 2017, 12:38pm


Views: 10145
     GOT armor designs


In Reply To
I would be very disappointed, if such a series had a "production design on par with early seasons of History Channel’s Vikings or Netflix’s The Last Kingdom". These shows were rightfully mocked by guys like Matt Easton and Lindybeige on youtube. I also think that GoT is vastly overrated, often having really bad looking designs for at least of its armor, helmets and weapons. Furthermore, I hope that a LotR series won't try to emulate the sensationalist character that Got has, which Tolkien would surely not enjoy.


I have to disagree on that. I think they look very cinematic level. The Lannisters armor, The Mountain's armor\helmet and The Tyrells look like something Gondor soldiers could have used. And I don't think it would be gritty as GOT. It's two different universe, and this show would probably me more like in the books or PJ tone.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Nov 5 2017, 1:34pm


Views: 10206
     I doubt that Peter Jackson will be involved.

Weta might get in on effects work but Peter probably would not be interested. He has other priorities. Maybe Paul McCartney could play Theoden (To old for Frodo now.) Ringo could be Bandobras Took.
As to the honor-ability of the players toward Tolkien's source material that would depend on the writers, producers, director and the money. But that is a way out from now. Somebody must have a pitch. I would pay to see what that is. KS

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



No One in Particular
Lorien


Nov 5 2017, 2:54pm


Views: 10225
     If this happens...

I would prefer the casting of unknowns or relative unknows, thus avoiding the whole "we paid for so-and-so big name, now we're gonna have 'em in every scene whether they belong there or not!"

While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 5 2017, 3:03pm


Views: 10109
     Agreed.


In Reply To
I would prefer the casting of unknowns or relative unknows, thus avoiding the whole "we paid for so-and-so big name, now we're gonna have 'em in every scene whether they belong there or not!"


True. If such a show is successful than the unknowns/little-knowns will become big names--if they're well-chosen!

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 5 2017, 3:05pm)


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Nov 5 2017, 5:55pm


Views: 10157
     Not sure-

Not sure why production design for those shows should have been mocked. Regardless, my point remains that a more rustic/less expensive looking production would be my preference for a series based in M-e. As for GoT I can’t comment as I stopped watching it years ago when they (true to plot apparently) killed off Boromir ;) I am aware, however, that they’re into the penultimate season of the series.



Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Nov 5 2017, 7:19pm


Views: 10091
     GOT productions are high class

I haven't watched Last Kingdom or Vikings, so I can't comment on them. But GOT is probably the best thing ever happened after LOTR, and the scale and scope of it are movie quality. Battle of Bastards, Hardhome and Blackwater Bay proves it's possible to have a high quality Middle Earth tv show.
In terms of custom designs, not everybody wears armor in Middle Earth. So that put cost down a lot. The orcs doesn't need full metal plates unless there is a big major battle.


(This post was edited by Victariongreyjoy on Nov 5 2017, 7:24pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 5 2017, 7:50pm


Views: 10097
     Middle-earth Armor


In Reply To
In terms of custom designs, not everybody wears armor in Middle Earth. So that put cost down a lot. The orcs doesn't need full metal plates unless there is a big major battle.


Well, I wouldn't expect anyone in Middle-earth to be wearing full-metal armor. Going by Tolkien's legendarium, no one had developed it--not even the Dwarves.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Nov 5 2017, 8:00pm


Views: 10048
     Cost and Tolkien Estate

That means most of the money can go to set designs and CGI. I have feeling Amazon will go through with this. They will play it safe by involving the Tolkien families in producing the show. Like the dreadful Shannara Chronicles, where Terry Brooks is heavily involved.


Fichtenbrenner
The Shire


Nov 5 2017, 8:12pm


Views: 10069
     still lots of armor


In Reply To

In Reply To
In terms of custom designs, not everybody wears armor in Middle Earth. So that put cost down a lot. The orcs doesn't need full metal plates unless there is a big major battle.


Well, I wouldn't expect anyone in Middle-earth to be wearing full-metal armor. Going by Tolkien's legendarium, no one had developed it--not even the Dwarves.

That actually means no full-plate armor like in the 1400s, so the soldiers would have looked more like knights of the 1200s with long mail shirts.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Nov 5 2017, 8:25pm


Views: 10123
     From the Tolkien artist Ted Nasmith my friend

"My friend Mehdi Ahmadi linked this article announcing Amazon's possible interest in creating a TV adaptation of LotR. Later that day my friend author Alison Baird emailed her reaction to the news, saying she'd wondered why LotR was suddenly trending on Twitter. She'd recently reread the LotR Appendices, remarking that a new production might well include material from the considerable 1st and 2nd Age accounts described there.
We exchanged opinions on the question, including whether the selling of TV rights to LotR could potentially open the door, via the Appendices, to, as she suggested, a serialized epic not on LotR, necessarily, but on The Fall of Numenor. To quote her, "Just think of it: we could see Numenor at its height! Ar-Pharazon the Golden! The fleet sailing to challenge Valinor, and the Atlantis-like fall of the island. And they could work in the forging of the Rings at the beginning, and the Last Alliance with Gil-galad at the end which leads directly to LOTR."
"And the characters! We'd get to know Elendil and his sons in Numenor, then follow them as they fled to Middle-earth and built their cities and fought against Sauron. We would also see a very different version of Sauron: not the scary armoured demon or the fiery eyeball, but Annatar the Deceiver who "seemed fair and wise". I always saw him as symbolizing the dangers of charismatic demagogues. A good lesson for our celebrity-obsessed times, I think..."
I tend to feel that writers of such fantasy adaptations can often do more with less, and the Numenorean epic is rich with potential for dark intrigue and breathtaking spectacle, all of it portending the eventual realms that are the backdrop of LotR.
And yes, such a production could be a massive disaster that sinks into the sea faster than Mt. Meneltarma under the Great Wave, but it could also be a major achievement."

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Nov 5 2017, 8:40pm


Views: 10122
     Needs som battles also

The idea of making a series of Numenor is better than adapting anything from the first age. Numenor has been mentioned several times in the movies, so it's logical that they continue something the wide audience are aware of. But we also need some major battles than just dramatic drama all the time. Like what GOT has every season.
I was thinking the war of the elves could be the one of them.
I've posted a thread about what kind of forces Sauron used during the second age, who his commander was etc. This is a great oppertunity to take some small liberty to flesh out these things.


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Nov 5 2017, 10:48pm


Views: 10010
     The tone should be like Shadow of Mordor game

I think a tone like the games are suitable for a LOTR tv show.


squire
Half-elven


Nov 5 2017, 11:15pm


Views: 10028
     "We need some battles" even though Tolkien didn't

The whole point of the Numenor epic is that you don't need battles to tell a gripping story of empire, hubris, and a tragic Fall. Both the beginning of the Downfall, the arrival of Numenor's fleet in Middle-earth, so strong that the Enemy surrendered without fighting, and the end, the arrival of Numenor's fleet in Valinor, so strong the Powers destroyed and remade the world rather than wage a war in heaven itself, are object-lessons in the uselessness of warfare at a fundamentally moral decision point.

I know that many fans of the Tolkien films, at least, believe that it ain't Tolkien if it doesn't have a gigantic set-piece epic battle. But to demand "some major battles" in a Tolkien story that doesn't have any, because battles are a key element of modern-day fantasy films, is to confuse genre with its originator.

If I thought the producers of a Tolkien TV series were genuinely interested in what Tolkien wrote, I'd expect a complexly written and deeply characterized series of mini-dramas, focusing on themes of power, death, morality, art, and poetry. War and combat has a place, but it's a relatively small one, being more background atmosphere in an medieval-style world than a major vehicle for the drama. But, especially given the responses I'm already seeing to this still-mysterious news about Amazon's pivot into a large-scale GOT-style fantasy series, I suspect the producers haven't the slightest interest in adapting Tolkien's unique vision to a modern serial production. Rather I'd guess they are looking to recapture the audience that Peter Jackson built for an updated, bloodier, sexier, and considerably cruder 'version' of Tolkien's art that kind of looks, sounds, and feels like all the others.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 5 2017, 11:43pm


Views: 9962
     Movie Armor


In Reply To
That means most of the money can go to set designs and CGI. I have feeling Amazon will go through with this. They will play it safe by involving the Tolkien families in producing the show. Like the dreadful Shannara Chronicles, where Terry Brooks is heavily involved.


I'm not sure that producing chain mail and the like is an less expensive or time-consuming than producing plate armor. And it seems likely that very few members of the Tolkien family would want to be involved. Maybe Royd Tolkien, who was a supporter of the films.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 5 2017, 11:45pm


Views: 9986
     Yes.


In Reply To
That actually means no full-plate armor like in the 1400s, so the soldiers would have looked more like knights of the 1200s with long mail shirts.


Essentially correct. Although with multiple cultures and races involved there is certainly room for some variety.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 5 2017, 11:52pm


Views: 10026
     Ted has a point, Kangi.

Yes, a dramatic presentation of Sauron's war with the Elves of the Second Age and the rise and fall of Númenor has a great deal of potential. I don't see much hope that a long-form adaptation of that story would be attempted unless it is a follow-up to a television version of the main story of The Lord of the Rings. It's an unknown quantity that would present vast challenges. Few studios have enough vision to invest in such a risky venture.

Such a project might benefit greatly from being able to utilize the Akallabeth, Tolkien's chronicle of the downfall of Númenor in The Silmarillion, but I don't see much hope of that happening.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 5 2017, 11:59pm)


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Nov 6 2017, 12:04am


Views: 9999
     Young Strider first, than Numenor

I think by making a young Strider show first is important for connecting to the Numenor stuff. Just to introduce Numenor to the audience and they get to know what's it about.


Glaurung63
Lorien

Nov 6 2017, 12:20am


Views: 9996
     Bombadil, Goldberry, Old Man Willow need at least TWO HOURS....

Or they've lost me. Joking but serious as well. If this is a LOTR series, will it be more character driven or special effects...I fear lots of cgi. But cgi has gotten amazingly better. Will they copy PJ and tell the ring story?

I am thinking unknown actors for the roles....but I can't imagine any actor wanting to take on any of the roles! "Oh, he is good, but he ain't Ian/Viggo/Elijah". "She is good but she's no Miranda/Cate/Liv". But some won't care and see the challenge. And surprise us!

I remain cautiously optimistic....


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Nov 6 2017, 12:23am


Views: 9960
     The more I think about this, the more angry it makes me.

The fact that this is being done because an executive wants his own "Game of Thrones" to compete with HBO immediately sets things off on the wrong foot.

Not least because it shows an insane lack of imagination. Thrones was no doubt greenlit because of the proven popularity of fantasy on film that PJ's The Lord of the Rings established. But Game of Thrones was its own thing - unquestionably different from LotR in tone and content. It was in many ways a cinematic successor to Rings, but wholly unique.

And what's Amazon's answer to Thrones? By going back to LotR, instead of taking a look at the vast wealth of fantasy stories that are ripe for adaptation.

Look at what Starz did. They got a fantasy/historical epic fantasy series of their own, but went in a wildly different direction from GoT. They adapted Diana Gabaldon's Outlander novels into a stunning series from Battlestar Galactica's showrunner Ronald D. Moore. It's not the ratings getter that GoT is for HBO, but it's their flagship show nonetheless.

I've seen many comments across the internet saying the timing here is perfect, because GoT will be ending soon. But, of course, in reality, it won't be long after its conclusion that one or more of HBO's Thrones spin-off shows launches. Granted, that's not the most original idea either (HBO doesn't want to let their golden goose go), but at least that series will have the advantage of being a new story, with new characters, which will keep audiences guessing week to week. Amazon's Rings series, meanwhile, will be retreading narrative ground that the audience is already very familiar with. Unless, of course, they veer wildly off-book - which I'm sure would thrill Tolkien fans everywhere.

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen

(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Nov 6 2017, 12:33am)


duats
Grey Havens

Nov 6 2017, 12:53am


Views: 9910
     Casting unknowns

I think that's the route they'll have to go.

Truth be told, the only "name" I can think of to play Gandalf after Ian McKellen is Derek Jacobi, and he's pushing eighty years old.


Lissuin
Valinor


Nov 6 2017, 2:07am


Views: 9896
     I am so afraid you might be right, Squire.

Let's say I'm more hopeful than optimistic that I would like what these folks would want to produce.

Quote
If I thought the producers of a Tolkien TV series were genuinely interested in what Tolkien wrote, I'd expect a complexly written and deeply characterized series of mini-dramas, focusing on themes of power, death, morality, art, and poetry.

Indeed.

There were several years between my first reading of The Hobbit and my second, and in that time I had completely forgotten that there was a battle of multiple armies at the end. Tolkien includes battles because of the tragic, heroic part they play in the struggle he chronicles at the end of the Third Age, but they take up relatively few pages and for the most part he leaves the details to the reader's imagination. After his personal experience of war, that isn't surprising.

As much as I enjoy the films we now have, it's usual for me to fast forward during the battles and other grisly slaughter. I stopped reading A Song of Fire and Ice at book two and have never seen the tv series. Would a series set in any age of Middle-earth now have to have sex and violence equal to or amped up even higher than GOT to be commercially successful? Yuck, IMHO.

Quote
... updated, bloodier, sexier, and considerably cruder 'version' of Tolkien's art that kind of looks, sounds, and feels like all the others.



Hopeful (a fool's hope?) but not optimistic - and this from a generally cockeyed optimist. I'll hold onto hope for some sort of eucatastrophe here if anything does come of the rumour. Maybe the universe can pull it off.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Nov 6 2017, 3:03am


Views: 9933
     Lord of the Rings

is not about battles. There are battles and skirmishes but Lord of the Rings is about people.KS

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Bombadil
Half-elven


Nov 6 2017, 4:48am


Views: 9865
     Remakes NOT? Additional Stories YES!

When trying to engage people over these many years
bom has tried many ways to interest people
in his Hobby known as the
Third Age of this World.

Generations come
Generations go
but once
Tolkien
Take Hold
he Never letzzz go.
Don't Cha Know?

No time left to slowly reflect how just how much
OUR Professor has affected our World since
1933 AD..SoOo..
just sit back & let it FLOW &
Ripple widely down throughout The Rivers of History until...

"The World has Changed,
&
ALL will finally feel it ...in the Water"

{ sent by Hedgehog under the HEDGE on the West borders of the Old Forest }

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


corsair
The Shire

Nov 6 2017, 12:27pm


Views: 9844
     LOTR

This has been my dream for years. A TV series based on TLOTR, emphasis being on the Silmarillon. Feanor, Celebrimbor, Gondolin etc. This would make a series that would blow GOT out of the water! Bring it on..


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 6 2017, 2:08pm


Views: 9729
     Probably little or no First Age.


In Reply To
This has been my dream for years. A TV series based on TLOTR, emphasis being on the Silmarillon. Feanor, Celebrimbor, Gondolin etc. This would make a series that would blow GOT out of the water! Bring it on..


Even if this goes through, I don't think you'll get that wish. My assumption, right now, is that The Silmarillion is still off the table.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Darkstone
Immortal


Nov 6 2017, 2:16pm


Views: 9766
     It's possible.

This article does seem to know the difference between Tolkien Enterprises and the Tolkien Estate.

http://deadline.com/...v-amazon-1202201636/

As noted in the article above the production costs are expected to be astronomical. The Tolkien Estate *may* be involved in negotiations because of the automatic 7.5 % rake-off it would get irregardless of their participation. To help save production costs the Tolkien Estate *may* be negotiating to kick back a portion of that rake-off for other concessions such as, say, artistic control with the thought that as long as the series is going to happen, it gets done right.

Or not.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”




(This post was edited by Darkstone on Nov 6 2017, 2:22pm)


NottaSackville
Tol Eressea

Nov 6 2017, 2:29pm


Views: 9751
     Cautiously pessimistic, yet tantalized

There are many, many roads this could go down at this point, and very few of them will likely result in something that I will enjoy. However, simply the possibility that they might choose one of the roads that leads to pure bliss has my attention - what a delight that would be!

Any chance the TORN Powers That Be planted this story to drive traffic? I already see several members returning to the boards!

Happiness: money matters, but less than we think and not in the way that we think. Family is important and so are friends, while envy is toxic -- and so is excessive thinking. Beaches are optional. Trust is not. Neither is gratitude. - The Geography of Bliss by Eric Weiner as summarized by Lily Fairbairn. And a bit of the Hobbit reading thrown in never hurts. - NottaSackville


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Nov 6 2017, 2:57pm


Views: 9746
     My first reaction is the same I had for LotR announcement

"Don't bother doing it if you can't do it right!" The thought of Amazon possibly doing this has me shaking my head.

I'm holding out for more information. The Tolkien Estate doesn't control this sort of deal, IIRC. The only reason I could see that they (if they do) would change their objections to adaptations would be if they want to set up the next generation of the Tolkien family to benefit or have options for involvement/control.

I don't know how all of this works. I dearly love and am very territorial about The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit books, and I love the films... grateful for these wonderful adaptations; but I'm scared of the stories becoming rapid turn-around tv productions... especially by Amazon.

I'm waiting to see what becomes of this. I feel it's an inevitable chapter in the evolution of Tolkien's works... but still...




sample

We have been there and back again.


TIME Google Calendar


6th draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observations List - November 28, 2013
4th draft of TH:DOS Geeky Observations List - May 15, 2014

5th draft of TH:BotFA Geeky Observations List - January 30, 2015


TORn's Geeky Observations Lists for LotR and The Hobbit


Silmaril
Rohan


Nov 6 2017, 2:59pm


Views: 9696
     Battles and action...


In Reply To
(LOTR) is not about battles. There are battles and skirmishes but Lord of the Rings is about people.KS


I absolutely agree, though some were needed to tell the story but I skip all action scenes of the Hobbit. I liked GOT more when they did not have the money to show the battles.


(This post was edited by Silmaril on Nov 6 2017, 3:00pm)


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Nov 6 2017, 3:32pm


Views: 9709
     Agreed

I'd love to see these along with the Scouring of the Shire and the Barrows.

I'd also love to see more about what was going on in the Shire from the time Fatty ran from Crickhollow leading to the alarm, "Fear, Fire, Foes". AND Fatty later leading others in standing up against the ruffians, Lobelia challenging them leading to getting locked up, etc. But I'd love to see a possible story about Farmer & Mrs. Cotton, Rosie and her brothers' subversive rebellion, too.

Stories of what others did before/during/after the War: Farmer Maggot (and his friendship with Bombadil?), Sandyman, Tooks & Brandybucks, Lotho, and how Sharkey's appearance changed everything! Also, how the Travellers (Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin) adjusted to being home again.

There's a lot that can be done and expanded on. *twitch*




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TORn's Geeky Observations Lists for LotR and The Hobbit


jlj93byu
Rivendell

Nov 6 2017, 4:28pm


Views: 9657
     Excellent List of Possibilities


In Reply To
I'd love to see these along with the Scouring of the Shire and the Barrows.

I'd also love to see more about what was going on in the Shire from the time Fatty ran from Crickhollow leading to the alarm, "Fear, Fire, Foes". AND Fatty later leading others in standing up against the ruffians, Lobelia challenging them leading to getting locked up, etc. But I'd love to see a possible story about Farmer & Mrs. Cotton, Rosie and her brothers' subversive rebellion, too.

Stories of what others did before/during/after the War: Farmer Maggot (and his friendship with Bombadil?), Sandyman, Tooks & Brandybucks, Lotho, and how Sharkey's appearance changed everything! Also, how the Travellers (Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin) adjusted to being home again.

There's a lot that can be done and expanded on. *twitch*


You list some excellent characters that could present some good backstory. Heck, even fun old Barliman Butterbur is "wise enough on his own ground," and not nearly as stupid as Frodo initially believed. Maybe even there's some fun story that could be told about his role in Bree as a source of information for Gandalf.


squire
Half-elven


Nov 6 2017, 7:10pm


Views: 9666
     But ... but ... Tolkien never wrote a word of any of those stories...

Why would we watch a heavily produced series of fan fiction episodes?

No offense meant, because tastes vary, but I myself wonder how could it even use Tolkien's name. Previous writers whose characters and settings echo the ones in the book, have generally been threatened with lawsuits by the Estate if they ventured anywhere near commercial publication or production.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
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Alassëa Eruvande
Valinor


Nov 6 2017, 8:09pm


Views: 9677
     Bro! //

 



I am SMAUG! I kill when I wish! I am strong, strong, STRONG!
My armor is like tenfold shields! My teeth like swords! My claws, spears!
The shock of my tail, a thunderbolt! My wings, a hurricane! And my breath, death!


NottaSackville
Tol Eressea

Nov 6 2017, 8:53pm


Views: 9618
     Sis!

We may have a whole new set of shows to criticize Smile

Happiness: money matters, but less than we think and not in the way that we think. Family is important and so are friends, while envy is toxic -- and so is excessive thinking. Beaches are optional. Trust is not. Neither is gratitude. - The Geography of Bliss by Eric Weiner as summarized by Lily Fairbairn. And a bit of the Hobbit reading thrown in never hurts. - NottaSackville


lurtz2010
Rohan

Nov 6 2017, 9:06pm


Views: 9629
     Yes they shouldn't go too overboard with expanding side characters and stories


In Reply To
Why would we watch a heavily produced series of fan fiction episodes?

No offense meant, because tastes vary, but I myself wonder how could it even use Tolkien's name. Previous writers whose characters and settings echo the ones in the book, have generally been threatened with lawsuits by the Estate if they ventured anywhere near commercial publication or production.

But if they are really going to do this they should adapt the book as faithful as possible, every character and every event in the book should be filmed. Cut nothing!

Otherwise what would be the point in this?


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 6 2017, 9:46pm


Views: 9640
     On the other hand...


In Reply To
But if they are really going to do this they should adapt the book as faithful as possible, every character and every event in the book should be filmed. Cut nothing!

Otherwise what would be the point in this?


...the counter-argument is what is the point in simply producing a slavish retelling of the book? We expect adaptations to bring something fresh to the table even as we hope for fidelity to the author's themes and intentions.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


lurtz2010
Rohan

Nov 6 2017, 10:05pm


Views: 9603
     Yeah I get that


In Reply To

In Reply To
But if they are really going to do this they should adapt the book as faithful as possible, every character and every event in the book should be filmed. Cut nothing!

Otherwise what would be the point in this?


...the counter-argument is what is the point in simply producing a slavish retelling of the book? We expect adaptations to bring something fresh to the table even as we hope for fidelity to the author's themes and intentions.

But why else would you reboot LOTR so soon after PJs classic movies?


Name
Rohan


Nov 6 2017, 10:11pm


Views: 9637
     Oh boy

I'm back after 3 years....this does feel strange.

Extremely conflicted about this. When I first saw the news trending online my immediate reaction was something along the lines of Frodo screaming "NO" as he watches Gandalf fall from the bridge. But I've warmed up to the idea a * little bit * since then.

In terms of making something with the goal of having it become extremely popular, you'd have to assume a "remake" of the original trilogy is the way to go. It's hard because we simply don't know much, but if I had to put money on it I'd say a remake is more probable.

Personally I'd want it to be as faithful as possible. Obviously. Most of Peter's changes to the (original) trilogy never bothered me, but a T.V. series simply has the time to be as faithful as possible. So that would be cool, but oh God, it would also be ridiculously hard, and that's what scares me. Sure, *I* want to see all the little events from the books put to screen, but what's hard is forcing the general population to want that as well. It's hard but not impossible. Great television exists, look at Breaking Bad or Game of Thrones or Lost or whatever. But this show would NEED to be great, because I think that's the only way it could be pulled off. They can't half you-know-what this; this could be a dumpster fire SO easily. I have a little bit of hope though! (If this even ever happens, which is highly highly questionable)
Every episode wouldn't be able to have sword fights and battles, so you better have amazing writers and directors and an amazing team, because otherwise this just will not work out how us Tolkien fans want (and if it's just bad in general everyone loses).


squire
Half-elven


Nov 6 2017, 10:19pm


Views: 9609
     Well, I don't expect "fresh" new plots and historic events within an author's established story-world

As you do, I may well hope for fidelity to the author's themes and intentions, which is the harder part of a work of adaptation. But I actually do expect, not just hope for, fidelity to the author's plot, characters, and incidents.

Of course adaptations to a new medium require a flexible approach to achieve a shorter and more visually-appropriate narrative. Compression, omission, translation, and transposition are all accepted devices of a screenwriter when adapting a written work. The word "invention" is, of course, not in the list - there is already far more material in any serious book than a film can possibly portray, making additional invention rather unnecessary - unless commercial considerations intervene (more sex! a new character the audience can 'relate to' better! add a fight scene here, it's been too dull for too long! etc.).

I feel the invention of additional material is really a retreat to genre by producers who don't actually want to do an adaptation, but rather a new story "based on" the written work.

But one viewer's "faithful adaptation" is, I suppose, another's "slavish retelling".



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Nov 6 2017, 10:25pm


Views: 9594
     Money, clearly.

You don’t think Jeff Bezos is actually going after this because he’s itching to do a book purist version of LotR, do you?

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 6 2017, 10:40pm


Views: 9628
     Almost 15 years


In Reply To
But why else would you reboot LOTR so soon after PJs classic movies?


It has actually been a while. The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King was released fourteen years ago this December. And long-form television does represent a new medium as opposed to a cinematic release or an animated television special.

Honestly, though? I would probably rather see a multi-volume graphic novel adaptation of LotR to shelve next to my The Hobbit collected graphic novel.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 6 2017, 10:46pm)


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Nov 6 2017, 10:43pm


Views: 9516
     That’s not long.

I get that in today’s reboot happy culture, it may seem like it. But it’s not. Especially for classic films such as these.

A couple decades ago, no one would have even considered this. Case in point, when Star Wars turned 20, they just put the films back in theaters to attract a whole new generation of fans.

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen

(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Nov 6 2017, 10:46pm)


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Nov 6 2017, 11:06pm


Views: 9586
     Yo!

Long time, you and many others here. This is gonna be sweet!



Silverlode
Forum Admin


Nov 6 2017, 11:21pm


Views: 9606
     Welcome back!

Whatever one thinks of this news, it's nice to see all the people it's bringing back to the boards.

I feel similarly. My concern is not what the audience wants to see, it's what the executives want to see - or what they think an audience would want to see. And studio executives are fairly notorious for poor vision in this regard. They tend to have pretty limited imaginations and a craving for formula and copying whatever was the last big thing that made a ton of money. I don't have much confidence that the people involved in this care about Tolkien at all, except as a potential cash cow, so unless and until I see some indication that anyone involved in this scheme really values the books, I'll be sitting over here on the Skeptic bench.

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Nov 6 2017, 11:27pm


Views: 9540
     If and only if

The series focuses on the stories and the people that inhabit them and doesn't yield to the temptation to turn it into one long film about war & sex. I love the Game of Thrones but I would hate to see a Tolkien series that imitates it. KS

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Nov 6 2017, 11:34pm)


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Nov 6 2017, 11:36pm


Views: 9531
     name recognition

Hopefully they find a show runner that's really passionate about the books, and the suits just let the creative team do their thing. I feel like the name recognition of Lord of the Rings alone should be enough to at least get people interested in watching. It shouldn't be such a tough sell that they feel the need to alter things to a crazy degree to make it more marketable. "Should" being the key word.


(This post was edited by Mooseboy018 on Nov 6 2017, 11:37pm)


Simon L. de Paiva
Bree


Nov 6 2017, 11:59pm


Views: 9592
     Highly disrespectful.

  I have posted here before a few times, and have spoken about the profound love, affection, reverence and adoration that I have for PJ's LOTR films. That being said, I was shocked when I first read the Variety article, I don't know what will come out of this deal. If they end up shooting something from the LOTR appendices, I would still be skeptical, any Middle-earth adaptation not directed by Peter Jackson and not scored by Howard Shore doesn't feel right to me. From where I stand these two are architects of Middle-earth just as much as Tolkien himself, their contributions to the films are just as historical and iconic as Tolkien's own creation.

Now, if they choose to go forth and remake LOTR entirely, this, for me borders on lunacy. PJ's LOTR is not only a cinematic wonder, but the greatest gift any Tolkien lover could ever receive, this is something sacred ( I say this from my heart), it cannot and must not be touched, not today nor a hundred years from now. PJs trilogy is the only LOTR adaptation the world will ever need. " There is only one Lord of the Rings, and he does not share power!"


Ettelewen
Rohan

Nov 7 2017, 12:11am


Views: 9521
     I'm having the same reaction.

Way back in the mists of time, when I heard a live-action LOTR film was being made I cringed, having been sorely disappointed by the cartoon versions and Bakshi's interpretation. Counter to all expectation I was and continue to be spellbound by what Jackson's team pulled off. Now I'm extremely skeptical that the magic would happen again...


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Nov 7 2017, 5:12am


Views: 9472
     I really do agree :)

I just get carried away with my "what ifs". These are things I already have fun thinking about. Fidelity to the text is always the right way to go... but I'll still go there in my head ;)




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TORn's Geeky Observations Lists for LotR and The Hobbit


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Nov 7 2017, 6:15am


Views: 9472
     The nice thing about a series

Is they can feature plot lines and characters from the books for an episode or two without stoping the overall tale dead in its tracks, as conventional movie adaptations are loath to do.



Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Nov 7 2017, 7:51am


Views: 9921
     That kind of magic doesn't happen twice.

We need look no further than the reception of The Hobbit films for evidence of that.

There may be a section of the Tolkien fan community that was less impressed by PJ's LotR Trilogy than the majority of the moviegoing public, but for the most part it's accepted that those films were something of a miracle. So many things that happened on the project seemed like providence - so many happy accidents, fated casting, you name it.

The magic captured by those films is something that is so often sought after in filmmaking - and so very rarely achieved. The films were revolutionary and will stand for all time as an important moment in the history of cinema.

It will not happen again. Not least because it's being pursued this time by a corporate executive who sees $ signs. Our miracle happened because a couple of passionate Kiwis wanted to bring a story they loved to the silver screen. And because they found people who shared that love. They formed a family and spent a few years making, as our dear Andrew Lesnie put it, the "the biggest low budget movie being made anywhere in the world at this time."

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen

(This post was edited by Eledhwen on Nov 7 2017, 1:32pm)


Dunadan of North Arnor
Rivendell

Nov 7 2017, 8:30am


Views: 9913
     If Star Trek Discovery is a benchmark, we should all be nervous as hell...

As blatantly shown, TV executives don’t give a rat’s ass about the integrity of any franchise, it’s continuity, or it’s fans. They care about marketing plans, envisioned profits, and meeting competition to justify their jobs in the short run!

At least PJ had a personal vision to the project, the luxury of a cinematic scope to see it through to its conclusion, and substantial resources behind him, both financial and those close to the material - artists, linguists, etc.

This has me quaking in my boots, but to be honest, secretly hoping they can pull this off to all our satisfaction. I’ll give it a 1 in a thousand chance that happens!


lurtz2010
Rohan

Nov 7 2017, 10:17am


Views: 9860
     It'll be impossible to surpass PJs LOTR


In Reply To
I have posted here before a few times, and have spoken about the profound love, affection, reverence and adoration that I have for PJ's LOTR films. That being said, I was shocked when I first read the Variety article, I don't know what will come out of this deal. If they end up shooting something from the LOTR appendices, I would still be skeptical, any Middle-earth adaptation not directed by Peter Jackson and not scored by Howard Shore doesn't feel right to me. From where I stand these two are architects of Middle-earth just as much as Tolkien himself, their contributions to the films are just as historical and iconic as Tolkien's own creation.

Now, if they choose to go forth and remake LOTR entirely, this, for me borders on lunacy. PJ's LOTR is not only a cinematic wonder, but the greatest gift any Tolkien lover could ever receive, this is something sacred ( I say this from my heart), it cannot and must not be touched, not today nor a hundred years from now. PJs trilogy is the only LOTR adaptation the world will ever need. " There is only one Lord of the Rings, and he does not share power!"


The more I think about it the more I agree with this. If they remake LOTR now I believe that in every aspect people will be saying "PJ did it better", "The movies were better", "why did they make this?" etc etc. The costume designs, sets, locations and everything else, there's no way they can do better than what PJ did. Can you imagine a new Hobbiton? Another battle of Helms Deep? What about Gollum? Andy Serkis' Gollum is iconic and I doubt a single person in the world would be satisfied by a new Gollum. Then there's the music! It'll be impractical to try and top Howard Shore's score.

In saying all that though if they actually announce that they are creating a LOTR series I'll still be very intrigued and I'll speculate in my head about it for 90% of my day, everyday until the first episode is released.

I would absolutely love to see a faithful adaption of LOTR with everything missing for PJs trilogy. The Old Forest, Barrow Downs, Bill Ferny, The grey company's journey through Gondor, Erech, Pelargir, Prince Imrahil, Ghan Buri Ghan helping the rohirrim...

I'm not going to be able to stop thinking about this.


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Nov 7 2017, 11:44am


Views: 9767
     Well said!

We're so lucky to have our miracle :)




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TORn's Geeky Observations Lists for LotR and The Hobbit


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Nov 7 2017, 12:21pm


Views: 9811
     Peter Jackson

Could this news potentially trigger PJ to work on the ultimate cut with those deleted scenes from both trilogies, to get it out as soon as possible? Do you feel a LOTR series will threaten his Middle Earth legacy?


(This post was edited by Victariongreyjoy on Nov 7 2017, 12:21pm)


squire
Half-elven


Nov 7 2017, 12:39pm


Views: 9850
     I agree that it's fun to wish

We all wish Tolkien had given us more of the details and stories that his great tale hints of. That's part of the beauty of his work, that he evokes that reaction from readers. As he said himself, some of the early criticism he received on publishing LotR was that it was "too short"!



squire online:
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Arannir
Valinor


Nov 7 2017, 2:34pm


Views: 9760
     Back

One of those absentees who gladly returns in the light of that news.

Not sure how I feel about it, yet, though I am not exactly against some speculation :)

In general I would agree that it is a bit weird to redo a story only 15-20 years later after it has been transformed into classics-considered movies. But that is at the same time what makes the whole story fascinating and interesting. Is there are a way to tell that story all over that can stand on its own feet? If yes, I would surely like to see it.

It is not the Silmarillion series that I and so many other hope for. But we all know that this is something we might very well not see happening in our lifetimes.

Personally I would be interested what rights are exactly in the talks. Just LotR? Or also the Hobbit?

If we get a series of the last years of the Third Age I would like to see it covering TH, the time in between and TLotR. If we go there, why not go all the way.

2 seasons TH, 1 season time in between, several seasons of LotR.

Maybe telling the story in a purist way when it comes to depicting the events and timelines of the original - but also adding to the story by telling it from different points of views. In a series it is easier to tell stories from different perspectives.


So I think there are ways to make this work - but it will be incredibly hard and good very easily fail. But, to be honest, same was true when PJ set out to make his movies.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 7 2017, 4:50pm


Views: 9764
     I have doubts, but maybe.


In Reply To
I think by making a young Strider show first is important for connecting to the Numenor stuff. Just to introduce Numenor to the audience and they get to know what's it about.


The Deadline piece is very gossipy with a lot of things preceded by statements like "I hear..." It does not seem very reliable. That said, I scoffed at the idea of a series based on the journeys and errantries of young Aragorn at first, but consider:

- Aragorn is a popular character in his own right.
- Several other familiar characters could be in this (Elrond, Arwen, Gandalf, Galadriel, younger versions of Théoden and Denethor, etc.).
- Such a show could cover a lot of ground that would be new to viewers--even many Tolkien fans.
- Aragorn's travels offer opportunities for more diversity without it feeling forced or politically correct.

I still have doubts; but this might be a viable direction to take.

The Second Age material would be even more challenging. I would not want to try it without at least being able to use the Akalabeth.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 7 2017, 4:52pm)


Annael
Immortal


Nov 7 2017, 5:23pm


Views: 9787
     I love it!

A bit of context: I read the book in 1967. I re-read it every year (do the math.) I eagerly awaited the Bakshi animated movie, which actually had some promise but failed of it, so then we had the Rankin-Bass ridiculousness.

When I heard there was to be a live-action version I was delirious with joy, even if I'd never heard of the director and when I looked him up, had a lot of doubts.

Then I found this site. I remember all the people who absolutely did not want a movie version of the book, claiming it would "ruin the book" and stronger language I won't repeat here. The debates over this dominated the board for quite a while.

Then the movies came out. As wonderful as they were, I've always felt PJ missed the mark on some stuff. (The Hobbit movies much more so.)

But obviously many found them perfect. And as soon as I saw the news that there might be a series adaptation, I knew some people were going to object to it because for them the movies have become the final word. I have to laugh at the irony. (I find the longer I live the more chances I have to do that . . .)

I'm going to say the same thing I said in 1999 and 2000 to the "no movies!" crowd: you will always have the book, and YOU will always have PJ's movie. If that's good enough for you, fine.

But some of us think the movies could have been better, and we are eager to see what could be done nowadays. Especially if we get the 20-hour version we always thought would be necessary to do full justice to the book. You always have the option not to watch, but I hope it happens because I WILL watch it!

Just like I'm going to watch the live musical version of "A Christmas Story" despite all the furor on the Internet about how the movie is and always shall be the ultimate version. Maybe it will, but that won't stop me from enjoying an award-winning production. Just like while I think the 1995 "Pride & Prejudice" series was the best adaptation to date, I own several others (including the one with Laurence Olivier and Greer Garson, and a Bollywood version) and I love them all. Just went to a very silly stage version that leaned heavily on farce, and while I kept thinking "this is not at all true to the book" I have to confess I laughed.

It's a human trait to want to keep retelling the same stories. If you lock them down to one version, they lose what makes them vital and become dead things.

I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around … The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.

-- Gaston Bachelard

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967

(This post was edited by Annael on Nov 7 2017, 5:33pm)


Ataahua
Forum Admin


Nov 7 2017, 5:25pm


Views: 9715
     We haven't had Star Trek Discovery down here yet.

What is it about the show that's misfiring for you?

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Annael
Immortal


Nov 7 2017, 5:26pm


Views: 9742
     I LOVE Star Trek Discovery

the more episodes I see, the more I think "this is genius!"

The time-loop episode with Rainn Wilson for instance. (Rainn Wilson as Harvey Mudd - perfect!) My favorite-ever episode of ST: TNG was the one in which they were caught in a time loop; the Discovery writers took that theme, turned it inside out and put several twists on it, and I lapped it up.

All by way of saying YMMV . . .

I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around … The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.

-- Gaston Bachelard

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Annael
Immortal


Nov 7 2017, 5:30pm


Views: 9734
     as I said elsewhere

we heard the exact same argument about how making a movie was disrespectful to the book, back in 1999 and 2000. I'm laughing at the irony!

In fact the NARF tag so many of us oldtimers sport comes from those days, when we were informed that if we were okay with a movie adaptation, we were "not real fans."

I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around … The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.

-- Gaston Bachelard

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967

(This post was edited by Annael on Nov 7 2017, 5:31pm)


Nomad
Forum Admin


Nov 7 2017, 5:57pm


Views: 9772
     Let us not place PJ's pedestal above the Professor's

Peter ravaged a great deal of Tolkien's dialog and in many cases replaced it with sub par prose that didn't even save time!

Other examples are clear that they were reduced for the sake of time... but these were no less egregious to me.

Exhibit A:

movie version
- WITCH-KING: "Feast on his flesh!"
- EOWYN: "I will kill you if you touch him!"
- WITCH-KING: "Do not come between the Nazgul and his prey!"
- WITCH KING: "No man can kill me . . . Die!"
- EOWYN: "I am no man!"


book version
'Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!'
A cold voice answered: 'Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.'
A sword rang as it was drawn. 'Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may.'
'Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!'
Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel. 'But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.'





Annael
Immortal


Nov 7 2017, 6:01pm


Views: 9708
     we had a whole separate board for "Casting Rumors" back in the day

Some of the best rumors:

Sean Connery for Gandalf
Bruce Willis for Boromir
Uma Thurman for Eowyn

People loved Ian McKellan for Gandalf and Ian Holm for Bilbo; Cate Blanchett got a big thumbs-up for Galadriel. But people were sure that Huge Weaving's Elrond would be too "Agent Smith"-like, that Elijah Wood & Sean Astin were totally wrong and should be replaced by Brits, and that Liv Tyler would stink.

We didn't know most of the other people who got cast. Viggo Mortensen, who he? Orlando Bloom - apart from his weird name, he's had like one nonspeaking role in a movie! Dominic Monaghan? Billy Boyd? David Wenham? Mirando Otto?

I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around … The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.

-- Gaston Bachelard

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Wilros
The Shire


Nov 7 2017, 6:07pm


Views: 9751
     Thorongil's Adventures


In Reply To
I scoffed at the idea of a series based on the journeys and errantries of young Aragorn at first, but consider:

- Aragorn is a popular character in his own right.
- Several other familiar characters could be in this (Elrond, Arwen, Gandalf, Galadriel, younger versions of Théoden and Denethor, etc.).
- Such a show could cover a lot of ground that would be new to viewers--even many Tolkien fans.
- Aragorn's travels offer opportunities for more diversity without it feeling forced or politically correct.

I still have doubts; but this might be a viable direction to take.

The Second Age material would be even more challenging. I would not want to try it without at least being able to use the Akalabeth.

I agree and think Young Aragorn/Thorongil is the easiest choice for actually getting a show made. This is a story that would be filmable based on the rights available and a budget that execs could swallow. It would be familiar enough with some known characters as you mention to draw in the established audience, and yet very fresh in that it is an interesting part of the story that has never been fleshed out. I would love to see Aragorn and Denethor competing for how to best deal with the rising threat of the Corsairs of Umbar! It would allow for a very interesting mix of politics, relationships, battles, etc. Hoping to see something like this actually happen!


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Nov 7 2017, 7:32pm


Views: 9700
     Hugo Weaving, Lee Pace, Cate Blanchett, Orlando Bloom and Evangeline Lilly

Would these actors reprise their roles in a prequel Tolkien show, for example Angmar's war against the Dunedains, Forging of the rings of power, Fall of a Numenor or young Aragorn? Or is TV format off limit for them?


(This post was edited by Victariongreyjoy on Nov 7 2017, 7:34pm)


Annael
Immortal


Nov 7 2017, 7:36pm


Views: 9664
     and this one:

Book:

Aragorn: "But come! With hope or without hope we will follow the trail of our enemies. And woe to them, if we prove the swifter! We will make such a chase as shall be accounted a marvel among the Three Kindreds: Elves, Dwarves, and Men. Forth the Three Hunters!"

Movie:

Aragorn: "Let's hunt some orc."

I cringe every time.

I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around … The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.

-- Gaston Bachelard

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 7 2017, 7:41pm


Views: 9711
     Possibly no returning actors.


In Reply To
Hugo Weaving, Lee Pace, Cate Blanchett, Orlando Bloom and Evangeline Lilly
Would these actors reprise their roles in a prequel Tolkien show, for example Angmar's war against the Dunedains, Forging of the rings of power, Fall of a Numenor or young Aragorn? Or is TV format off limit for them?


Very likely not, at least not in their original roles. If the series (if it happens) is not based on the Peter Jackson films then there is no reason to even expect to see Tauriel at all since she is not one of Tolkien's characters.

Anything based directly on the LotR Appendices is at least a remote possibility.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 7 2017, 7:45pm)


duats
Grey Havens

Nov 7 2017, 8:01pm


Views: 9626
     I'm looking forward to hearing more about this project

It's hard to have a real discussion about it until we know what stories are actually being adapted. I have often seen the phrase "Lord of the Rings" tossed around to describe Middle-earth in general, so it's possible that this series may not be a re-adaptation of the novel itself.

I figure they'll need to cast mostly unknowns for this, though it wouldn't surprise me if they got a "name" actor for a prominent role (Gandalf springing immediately to mind). The only two actors I'd love to see as Gandalf off the top of my head are Gary Oldman and Derek Jacobi, but I doubt the former would ever do it and the latter is nearing eighty-years-old.


Doriath
Rivendell


Nov 7 2017, 8:12pm


Views: 9674
     cautiously optimistic

I've been talking about wanting a t.v. series treatment of LOTR or all Tolkien materials for a long, long time. They just have to leave out so much in movie format. I could watch episode after episode of life in the Shire personally. I'm always bummed that there is such a cool setting and we only get a taste of it and then they're off and running. Just imagine being able to watch the Battle Of The Greenfields with the heroic Bandobras "Bullroarer" Took doing his thing or the time the white wolves came to the Shire and the Bucklanders had to drive them out. We could maybe see these things in flashbacks of Shire history somehow. Point is there is so much potential to really flesh out the world more. With all the writings not just LOTR. I am in the camp that it should be an entirely new group of people involved and new shooting locations, new look overall, separating itself from what PJ and crew gave us. I'm eternally grateful for what they gave us by the way. Perfect? No. But still very happy they did it and did it pretty darn well all things considered. If we get to go there again it shouldn't be a carbon copy. It should also not be some vision other than what Tolkien gave us. I'm just not interested in what potentially could amount to expensive fan fiction. So for now, remaining cautiously optimistic!

Gives it to us in glorious 2D!


duats
Grey Havens

Nov 7 2017, 8:16pm


Views: 9631
     Same here

I never thought it could actually happen, but I too have been wanting a Lord of the Rings television series for years. I think the novel naturally lends itself quite well to the long-form, episodic nature of that format.

If this turns out to be a re-adaptation of the book, color me excited.


In Reply To
I've been talking about wanting a t.v. series treatment of LOTR or all Tolkien materials for a long, long time. They just have to leave out so much in movie format. I could watch episode after episode of life in the Shire personally. I'm always bummed that there is such a cool setting and we only get a taste of it and then they're off and running. Just imagine being able to watch the Battle Of The Greenfields with the heroic Bandobras "Bullroarer" Took doing his thing or the time the white wolves came to the Shire and the Bucklanders had to drive them out. We could maybe see these things in flashbacks of Shire history somehow. Point is there is so much potential to really flesh out the world more. With all the writings not just LOTR. I am in the camp that it should be an entirely new group of people involved and new shooting locations, new look overall, separating itself from what PJ and crew gave us. I'm eternally grateful for what they gave us by the way. Perfect? No. But still very happy they did it and did it pretty darn well all things considered. If we get to go there again it shouldn't be a carbon copy. It should also not be some vision other than what Tolkien gave us. I'm just not interested in what potentially could amount to expensive fan fiction. So for now, remaining cautiously optimistic!



Darkstone
Immortal


Nov 7 2017, 8:36pm


Views: 9674
     Well, PJ's original Miramax script was worse.

For example:

ARAGORN (to Arwen): Your people raised me as one of their own. I cannot repay them by taking away their brightest jewel...their Evenstar.

ARWEN: Did you come here to fill me with despair? It is the mortal trait I least admire.

ARAGORN: I came here to try to make you understand...Arwen, you must return across the sea and dwell with your people in Valinor. It is the way it must be.

ARWEN (frustrated): My life is with you, or I have no life!

ARAGORN SHAKES HIS HEAD

ARAGORN (quietly): No...

ARWEN (frustrated): Oh, you stubborn....Man!

****

GIMLI (to Nazgul): Pick on somebody yer own size, ye overstuffed buzzard!

THROWS AXE WHICH STICKS IN NAZGUL'S HEAD

****

GANDALF (being assisted downhill by Legolas): Blast! Why did the Valar send me here in this old man´s body? How did they think I could serve Middle-earth in this decrepit carcass?

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”




Nomad
Forum Admin


Nov 7 2017, 8:43pm


Views: 9638
     Painful to read //

 





Alassëa Eruvande
Valinor


Nov 7 2017, 10:56pm


Views: 9628
     Got any shortbread? //

 



I am SMAUG! I kill when I wish! I am strong, strong, STRONG!
My armor is like tenfold shields! My teeth like swords! My claws, spears!
The shock of my tail, a thunderbolt! My wings, a hurricane! And my breath, death!


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Nov 7 2017, 11:09pm


Views: 9588
     Agree to disagree. ;) //

//

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen


Beleg Cúthalion
The Shire


Nov 8 2017, 12:16am


Views: 9832
     My own thoughts on this matter...

Since the news of this broke out a few days ago, I have been trying to wrap my head around this whole thing. It feels to me as if this is some weird dream that is not really happening. Anyways, all of that aside, I am very unsure about this project. My main issue with it is Amazon's very uninspired motive for wanting to re-do 'The Lord of the Rings'. They want the next 'Game of Thrones', and it seems that they are going to completely misinterpret what makes 'The Lord of the Rings' so special, by throwing in a bunch of vulgar language, and sex. Those two things are what concern me the most about this. Now, it is perfectly possible that they will not do this and they will actually try and make a faithful adaptation of Tolkien's work, but there is that chance that they will not, and that thought is what dominates my mind as of now. I myself grew up with Peter Jackson's films, being just six years old when I saw 'The Return of the King' in theatres. I had already previously seen both 'The Fellowship of the Ring' and 'The Two Towers' and loved both of those films, so to me it does not make sense as to why they would want to re-make a trilogy of films so beloved by many people. I am seriously wondering what they think they can do better that would justify a re-make. I suppose time will tell, but that is what I think.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Nov 8 2017, 12:22am


Views: 9782
     No but it’s about that time again XD /

 



grammaboodawg
Immortal


Nov 8 2017, 1:59am


Views: 9742
     So true! Thanks :D //

 




sample

We have been there and back again.


TIME Google Calendar


6th draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observations List - November 28, 2013
4th draft of TH:DOS Geeky Observations List - May 15, 2014

5th draft of TH:BotFA Geeky Observations List - January 30, 2015


TORn's Geeky Observations Lists for LotR and The Hobbit


Arannir
Valinor


Nov 8 2017, 1:34pm


Views: 9723
     A new GoT

I think we should be careful what is actually meant when the term "a new GoT" is used.

I think we too quickly jump to the conclusion that this means Martinizing Tolkien. But I think it is more because of two other reasons or a mixture of the two:

1) Journalists trying to melt down this news in a catchy slogan and phrase, with LotR and GoT being in the same text already guaranteeing more clicks and interest for a story given the popularity of both.

2) Officials and producers referring to GoT as an example that a certain scope needed to bring fantasy books with battles and magic to the small screen can be achieved today without bankrupting the production. "They want the next Game of Thrones" means nothing more than "we want it to be successful and make money", imho.


I think the big question is whether such a production and its makers would have a vision for the material that is interesting enough for viewers to experience despite the popularity of an already established vision.

That vision would or imho should have something to do with using the undoubtfully smaller scale of the series (compared to the movies) to its advantage (which isn't impossible, many people might arfgue that GoT was better before its increasing budgets).

If the vision is nothing more than trying to cover the shortcomings of the series compared to the movies than it is doomed.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Beleg Cúthalion
The Shire


Nov 8 2017, 7:40pm


Views: 9634
     Perhaps you are right.

When I wrote 'they want the next Game of Thrones', I was trying to say that they are going to be completely blinded by the success and money that Game of Thrones has brought HBO in these last seven years, and that they are going to basically try and replicate it, but in Middle-earth, with Tolkien characters. That is my main fear, but like you said, it is possible that the journalist used that as a sort of 'click bait' title to get people interested. Maybe there is someone at Amazon who really loves the story and thinks that they can do a really good job at making it a successful television series. However, at this moment, everything is just speculation. We do not really know what Amazon's intention is for this project. I am still very much on the fence about this, because how are they going to distance themselves from the films? The characters as portrayed by the actors are iconic, as are the locations, the costumes, and the music. All of these things are 'The Lord of the Rings' are many people, so for them to make a possible lesser version for the sake of making money is ridiculous to me.


Doriath
Rivendell


Nov 8 2017, 8:09pm


Views: 9688
     hope

My hope is that they don't want to scare off the droves of Tolkien fans by doing something too drastic. That's a huge, built in, guaranteed audience as well as new fans it would gain along the way. I just can't fathom that they'd want to commit ratings suicide by turning it into something that such a huge following could potentially turn their backs to. Nothing is ever going to be perfect. I'm o.k. with a little variable here and there. Have to learn to bend a bit and hope that the main objective is to bring the books to screen without major deviation. I have immensely enjoyed the GOT t.v. series but never read the books. I know there were a lot of things the readers weren't happy with but I'm guessing they stuck to the flavor of the world for the most part. Not sure where I'm going with this. Just thinking through it as I type. Mainly I'm hoping they will stick to the flavor of the world and not, as some have speculated, GOT it up with sex and violence and gore. Choose great locations like PJ did and make us believe that's Middle Earth. I don't even need amazing, incredibly expensive special effects. Just stick to Tolkien and make it feel like we're in the world and take time to let us enjoy being there and use as much of the material as possible. I think it could be amazing. Here's hoping!

Gives it to us in glorious 2D!


Beleg Cúthalion
The Shire


Nov 8 2017, 9:03pm


Views: 9656
     I admire your optimism.

There is a chance that it could turn out great, and if that happens, I will be the first to admit that I was wrong. However, there is also the chance of it failing miserably, and that is what worries me more. I have seen many people say that this would be a chance to bring in new fans, but I am not really on board with that. The films are loved by many people, so if there was a new fan, they would watch the trilogy that so many people have praised. That is what I think, but I suppose we will see what happens.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 8 2017, 10:00pm


Views: 9644
     I'm cautiously optimistic, myself.

There is still a very good chance that this won't happen at all. Even so, I am hoping that any series that might be made will be led by a show-runner with a strong vision that is deeply rooted in Tolkien's legendarium, and who has the ability to make it a reality.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 8 2017, 10:01pm)


Lissuin
Valinor


Nov 8 2017, 10:11pm


Views: 9574
     Stephen Colbert, perhaps?

Smile
He does have writer, producer, and actor credit. Maybe he could add director to the list.
I'm only half joking. He has the Tolkien credits.
Maybe I'll start a campaign. Wink


Petty Dwarf
Bree


Nov 8 2017, 10:30pm


Views: 9534
     I would be interested in this.

I know that the films are iconic, and that they were also fairly recent. I love them to bits, of course. However, I also feel that if I go through life and never see anyone else's interpretation of Tolkien's novel, it will be too bad.

Even if it's horrible, it will be sure to be an interesting exercise. And let's be honest, someone who cares about the novels is bound to be working on it. The odds are in our favor at this point, so it probably won't be horrible. Underwhelming at most.

"No words were laid on stream or stone
When Durin woke and walked alone."


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Nov 8 2017, 10:34pm


Views: 9579
     Cautiously optimistic...

I’m cautiously optimistic about this part...


In Reply To
There is still a very good chance that this won't happen at all.


Tongue

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen


Beleg Cúthalion
The Shire


Nov 8 2017, 10:39pm


Views: 9532
     I had not actually considered that.

I have been wrapped up in the idea that this could be horrible, I never really thought that it may not happen. Maybe I have been thinking too much on it, but that slim chance is what I am skeptical about. I am not opposed to a new adaptation, I just want it to be by someone who has a deep love and appreciation for Tolkien's wonderful story, as you have said.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 8 2017, 10:57pm


Views: 9545
     Well...


In Reply To
I’m cautiously optimistic about this part...


In Reply To
There is still a very good chance that this won't happen at all.


Tongue


That might end up being for the best. Unsure

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 8 2017, 10:59pm


Views: 9570
     Hmmm...


In Reply To
Stephen Colbert, perhaps?


Much as I like Stephen, he would not be my first (or even my tenth) choice for this. Not that I have anyone specific in mind.

That's a good question, though: Who would you like to see as show-runner?

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Petty Dwarf
Bree


Nov 8 2017, 11:06pm


Views: 9494
     That one's tough

I don't know. There are no recent showrunners I like that are particularly known for fidelity when adapting books to the screen. The last thing we want is for LotR to end up as just another hack-n-slash fantasy show.

"No words were laid on stream or stone
When Durin woke and walked alone."


squire
Half-elven


Nov 8 2017, 11:34pm


Views: 9569
     Can't resist...

Your well-meant wish,
"I am hoping that any series that might be made will be led by a show-runner with a strong vision that is deeply rooted in Tolkien's legendarium..."

inevitably reminded me of Ainu Laire's hopes for a director of the legendary bridge film. That was the "second film", presumably based on the LotR Appendices which the studios had the rights to, that was going to follow the one-film The Hobbit movie and serve as a link between it and the Jackson LotR trilogy, back in 2008:
"I would hope they would grab someone who knows the appendices of LOTR to direct the second film."

Helpless in the face of such innocence, I agreed that that would be very nice indeed.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Nov 8 2017, 11:44pm


Views: 9559
     Article in the Sunday Times says the family is involved

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tolkien-family-in-quest-for-lord-of-the-rings-tv-rights-amazon-netflix-6shrcdbsg

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Ettelewen
Rohan

Nov 9 2017, 12:04am


Views: 9485
     *chuckle* Thanks for reviving that post, squire! //



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 9 2017, 1:30am


Views: 9537
     At least to some extent.


In Reply To
Article in the Sunday Times says the family is involved


The Times article, like previous ones, is still missing some key facts. We still don't know with much certainty in what capacity the Tolkien Estate is involved. On the other hand, Amazon's Jeff Bezos seems to want the Estate to have input.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 9 2017, 1:33am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 9 2017, 1:31am


Views: 9486
     Post Necromancy

That old post is fairly amusing, Squire. Cool

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Nov 9 2017, 3:37am


Views: 9488
     The Tolkien Family Involvment

I agree. It lacks a good many details. But I keep thinking that Middle-earth Enterprises does not own the rights to anything outside the Lord of the Rings & the Hobbit. If rights to Tolkien's other works are involved it would explain the Family presence.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 9 2017, 4:21am


Views: 9415
     Too many unknowns.


In Reply To
I agree. It lacks a good many details. But I keep thinking that Middle-earth Enterprises does not own the rights to anything outside the Lord of the Rings & the Hobbit. If rights to Tolkien's other works are involved it would explain the Family presence.


You're right about Middle-earth Enterprises, but I think we'll have to just wait and see what further reports have to add.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 9 2017, 4:23am)


Eldy
Gondor


Nov 9 2017, 6:45am


Views: 9414
     Question since I don't have a Times subscription

Is The Times' article based on original reporting about the role of the Tolkien family in all this, or is it simply extrapolation and/or speculation based on the Variety and Deadline articles?



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



Arannir
Valinor


Nov 9 2017, 9:23am


Views: 9397
     Interesting...


In Reply To
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tolkien-family-in-quest-for-lord-of-the-rings-tv-rights-amazon-netflix-6shrcdbsg


I really know I should stay calm and remind myself that a Silmarillion series is pretty much out of the picture. But I cannot deny the hope comes back over and over again.

Involvement of the family might also mean that they want closer connections to this production this time and make sure that there is another vision of TLotR that isn't as off as (some of them) consider PJ's movies to be. This might also be, of course, a certain basis for interest for this new project if it gets the label of being "the truthful version" of hte material.

Or the stance of the family regarding adaptions has changed... but that I highly doubt.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Nov 9 2017, 9:45am


Views: 9436
     You’v hit on something that I fear greatly...


In Reply To
Involvement of the family might also mean that they want closer connections to this production this time and make sure that there is another vision of TLotR that isn't as off as (some of them) consider PJ's movies to be. This might also be, of course, a certain basis for interest for this new project if it gets the label of being "the truthful version" of hte material.


...and that is that the Tolkien Estate IS involved, and for the express purpose of discrediting PJ’s adaptation as a “true version” by taking an active role in this new version. Such a thing would mean nothing good for the fandom, and create divisions never before seen amongst Tolkien fans.

I remain convinced, for now, that someone got their wires crossed and the Estate is not involved (it would depend on Christopher going back on what he’s said previously - which I honestly cannot fathom).

But if - SOMEHOW - they are, I dearly hope their aim does not lie with what I’ve described above. That would be horrible.

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen


Arannir
Valinor


Nov 9 2017, 9:48am


Views: 10282
     Sean Astin

I think Sean Astin put it well in this interview:

http://edition.cnn.com/...ings-show/index.html

"The challenge would be, could they find some team to do it that they could let (do) their thing, or are they going to squat on it?" he said. "It's hard to make a TV series like this by committee."


I am also not sure whether I would like Amazon to do it or hope that Netflix might win the battle for the rights (some reports still say that the two both try to get the rights). Netflix has imho the far better record of making great television.


I am not so anxious about a series with the potential "blessing" of the family would split the fandom - not more at least at it has always been when it comes to the adaptions. Imho the place of the movies as classics is too much secured for them to be taken down. Surely for some this would be the definite adaption if it turns out to be more "faithfuL" (whatever that means). But that comes with the territory and shouldn't bother anyone who likes the movies more or who likes both versions just fine.


The issue is, I am not sure how high the potential for this series would really be. The opening numbers would be great, no doubt. But would it really be able to hold on to its viewers unless it is really, really well done? GoT, for example, lives from its cliffhangers and huge surprises. There are entire forums dedicated to theories and speculations. All this would not be doable for a new LotR adaption. People know what happens. So the series would have to keep its audience by establishing a vision of the material that will have viewers say "I want to see how they did that scene... etc.".



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



(This post was edited by Arannir on Nov 9 2017, 9:58am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 9 2017, 2:43pm


Views: 10258
     Not necessarily.


In Reply To
I remain convinced, for now, that someone got their wires crossed and the Estate is not involved (it would depend on Christopher going back on what he’s said previously - which I honestly cannot fathom).


That is not necessarily the case. The Tolkien Estate might still only be involved to the extent of protecting their own financial interests. They might not have any direct creative control. We do not yet have enough solid information to know either way.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Annael
Immortal


Nov 9 2017, 3:21pm


Views: 10257
     on whether we want to see a remake, sure

but I don't understand the "because I don't want it, it should not be done at all" attitude. I mean, no one's going to force you to see it. Why not let those of us who are interested have the chance?

I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around … The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.

-- Gaston Bachelard

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


dormouse
Half-elven


Nov 9 2017, 4:17pm


Views: 10266
     Yes.....

..and - well, goodness!
I wander back here because I've been away too long. It's all too easy to drift off, and life seems so full of clutter that has to be dealt with first. But today my copy of 'Middle Earth: From Script to Screen' arrived, all new and sealed in its plastic wrapper (no, I haven't opened it yet, the challenge is, can I wait until Christmas...) and I remembered and came back, to find news on the main thread of a potantial new adaptation and all this discussion - and names like Kangi and Bomby reappearing.

I had to answer a post, so I answered yours, Aragorn the Elfstone, because a lot of me feels as you do about this. No one can create magic by demand, much less by cheque book, That special magic the LotR films had (and for me, the Hobbit films too) was the alchemy that came from a particular group of creative people, place, time and attitude. It could happen again, I think, in a different way, but it's not something anyone can force, much less buy. Like luck - or love - magic strikes where and when it will.

I don't know what I feel about a new adaptation, or whatever else it is they're discussing. The talk of something to take the place of GoT does nothing for me - I don't like GoT and get impatient with the constant references to Tolkien in the same breath - seems to me GoT is so alien to Tolkien's work that the idea of one as a follow-up to the other is off-putting. I fear that someone who thinks that way about Lord of the Rings is someone who really doesn't understand it and perhaps doesn't care...

And yet, and yet......

On balance I reckon I come down as a don't know, with stirring hopes and huge misgivings. But it will be interesting to see what, if anything comes of this....
*Grabs popcorn and waits for the next instalment*

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Nov 9 2017, 6:27pm


Views: 10261
     Hi dormouse!

Since everyone seems to be responding to someone, I can't think of anyone that I would rather respond to than you! And, not surprisingly, my response to this news is very similar to yours. A Tolkien/LOTR TV series in the mold of Game of Thrones would be an utter travesty to me. And yet, there would be an opportunity to do something different than what Jackson and his team accomplished in an extended format. The news that the Estate is supposedly involved can't help but make me wonder. I know for a fact (from reading the 1969 agreements) that Middle-earth Enterprises has an option to purchase rights to a television series based (however loosely) on LOTR and TH for a tiny pittance (several thousand dollars per episode, plus 25% of the original payment for each of the first 4 re-runs of each episode), so there is no reason why the Estate would be involved unless this project involved the rights to more than just LOTR and TH. Mostly likely that just means that the reporting is incorrect. But I can't help wondering what it mean if the reporting is not incorrect ... .

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire

(This post was edited by Voronwë_the_Faithful on Nov 9 2017, 6:27pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Nov 9 2017, 6:51pm


Views: 10165
     Hello Voronwe!

Good to see you!
Also good to read your insight into the legal niceties of this - I know you understand the legal side in a way most of us don't. This is intriguing and I can't help but wonder what the next piece of news about it will be...

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


lurtz2010
Rohan

Nov 9 2017, 9:01pm


Views: 10186
     Let's hope it IS a Silmarilion series then

Or a series based on other Middle Earth stories referenced in the books so that it could be connected to PJs already established universe.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 9 2017, 9:23pm


Views: 10165
     Peter Jackson's?

I would rather see such a series connected to Tolkien's already established universe, myself. Jackson has had his turn in the spotlight.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 9 2017, 9:24pm)


lurtz2010
Rohan

Nov 9 2017, 10:02pm


Views: 10152
     PJ's universe based on Tolkien's universe


In Reply To
I would rather see such a series connected to Tolkien's already established universe, myself. Jackson has had his turn in the spotlight.

I mean if the series isn't a LOTR remake with its own new universe then it may aswell be a part of PJs "cinematic universe" just with new stories and characters. Obviously the more faithful to Tolkiens lore the better.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 9 2017, 10:10pm


Views: 10102
     Yes...as far as it goes.


In Reply To

In Reply To
I would rather see such a series connected to Tolkien's already established universe, myself. Jackson has had his turn in the spotlight.

I mean if the series isn't a LOTR remake with its own new universe then it may aswell be a part of PJs "cinematic universe" just with new stories and characters. Obviously the more faithful to Tolkiens lore the better.


I don't dispute your point. At the same time, I would hope for more fidelity to Tolkien's legendarium than to Jackson's movie-verse. Fortunately, there is nothing in the films that really impacts the First Age in any way. Jackson did mess up the year that the Second Age ended, but he seems to have a consistent problem with getting years correct.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 9 2017, 10:15pm)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Nov 9 2017, 11:54pm


Views: 10130
     Hi Ms Mouse good to see you.

I want more information. Everything is so tentative I do not know how to feel. Once things begin to firm up maybe I will settle to a ya or nay.; KS

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



dormouse
Half-elven


Nov 9 2017, 11:58pm


Views: 10043
     Hello Kangi

Good to see you too, it's been a while. And I'm with you on this. Torn (if you'll pardon the pun). I won't know how to feel about it until I know more about the who, what and how of it. Right now it could be anything. Or nothing....

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


malickfan
Gondor


Nov 10 2017, 8:34am


Views: 10064
     Not sure how I feel about this...

...Although it is incredibly exciting/intriguing that a new adaptation of LOTR may soon be coming, it still feels way too soon since the Jackson films to even think about a reboot and I'm not entirely convinced the tone/spirit of the novel could be translated to TV any better than in the films. Yes you'd get much more time to develop characters and scenes cut from the books, but the novels slow pacing, lack of action scenes and old style dialogue in the early chapters wouldn't necessarily make for thrilling TV for casual viewers, this feels less like a genuine desire to adapt the novel more faithfully and more just to cash in on the popularity of Game Of Thrones...I have no desire to see LOTR 'sexed up' with random romance and gore thrown in every five minutes...

I loved the PJ films growing up (well the first three anyway) but have rather soured on them in recent years, they remain a colossal groundbreaking technical achievement and hugely entertaining fantasy blockbusters, but for me are at their weakest the further they moved from the source material and rarely reflect the spirit or tone of the novel (I feel like Christopher Tolkien's comments from a few years ago, though extreme were essentially correct in some of the criticisms) so a part of me welcomes the idea of a new adaptation of the story, perhaps filmed in the UK this time with a different set of special effects/art design crew (hey, maybe they could actually get Ted Nasmith involved this time...)...

Very mixed feelings, both cautiously intrigued and mildly annoyed, will keep an eye on this story as it develops.


I very much doubt the Tolkien Estate is involved (I agree with the comments above that is likely some confused them with Tolkien enterprises) but it's been reported in enough places that their might be a shred of truth to it, which is very very intriguing....

Unimpressed








Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Nov 10 2017, 9:16am


Views: 10134
     Ted Nasmith

Really hoping for Ted Nasmith too. My very first copies of Lord of the Rings from 2001 had his art on the covers, and I've grown to love his stuff more over the years. I especially want to see the barrow wight scene filmed exactly like his painting.


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Nov 10 2017, 9:23am


Views: 10053
     Ted Nasmith paperback editions...

Those were my first editions as well. I love them dearly. Heart

They're worn terribly now, I'm afraid - but I remember picking up my copy of FotR from a display stand at Walmart, and then the latter two from a nearby Books-a-Million (which unfortunately closed down years ago).

Those covers hold a lot of sentimental value for me. Smile

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen

(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Nov 10 2017, 9:27am)


dormouse
Half-elven


Nov 10 2017, 2:50pm


Views: 10029
     Ah - yes, I can see that would give you something to hope for....

.... in a new adaptation. For me it works the opposite way. Any thought of a new version is tinged with regret already because the one thing I'm sure they won't do is work with Alan Lee on the look of Middle Earth, and for me that's a real loss. It was his involvement that drew me to Peter Jackson's films in the first instance - I've been collecting books with his illustrations since the 1980s and when he illustrated the Centenary Lord of the Rings I was overjoyed.
In comparison I find Ted Nasmith's work rather stiff. Some of his landscapes are lovely but I don't care for his versions of the characters as much - though I've noticed that in his more recent work the style of the figures is changing, and I like them better. But it will always be Alan Lee who came as close as anyone could to capturing the Middle-earth in my head.

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Nov 10 2017, 5:35pm


Views: 10020
     Why are you sure that Alan Lee would not be involved?

Has he retired, or is there some other reason why it is impossible that he could be asked to help with this project, if it happens?

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


dormouse
Half-elven


Nov 10 2017, 7:45pm


Views: 9981
     I'm sure he could be asked....

...but I was thinking, maybe quite wrongly, that someone taking on a new Tolkien adaptation would want to put their own stamp on it, and visually Peter Jackson's films are Alan Lee illustrations brought to life. (And John Howe's. I don't discount him at all. I didn't know his work so well before the films so it was Alan Lee's involvement that drew me in, but I love John Howe's illustrations too now and he's also a very interesting man. One of the great fascinations in the background documentaries for me is the way those two artists, both used to working alone, came together on the films, and the way their two styles blended.)

I just took it that a new director would want his/her version to look different. But I don't know of any other reason that would rule out Alan Lee's involvement - or John Howe's - and of course if they were involved, I'd say that was a huge point in its favour!

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Nov 10 2017, 7:55pm


Views: 9950
     I take your point

However, if anyone from the films were to be involved with the alleged new project, I think Lee and Howe would be the best bet. And I would love it if Ted Naismath could be involved too, particularly if the impossible happens and this project extends further into the legendarium than LOTR and TH. If for no other reason than that Ted is a great guy (but also a great artist).

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Jettorex
Lorien


Nov 10 2017, 8:26pm


Views: 9939
     Does anyone know.....

what middle earth time frame this will cover? I thought when the original rights were sold by the Tolkien estate that it only covered the events in the hobbit and LotR???


- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."


My Book---> www.amazon.com/Popcornmaker


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 10 2017, 8:34pm


Views: 9955
     Not yet.


In Reply To
Does anyone know.....
what middle earth time frame this will cover? I thought when the original rights were sold by the Tolkien estate that it only covered the events in the hobbit and LotR???


No, we don't even know if the would-be producers are certain yet. Hypothetically, the rights acquired by The Saul Zaentz Company cover The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings and its Appendices, so they allow for spin offs covered by the Appendices. Those are the rights currently controlled by Warner Bros. and which make a potential Second Age setting feasible.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Nov 10 2017, 8:40pm


Views: 9951
     WB does not have any television rights

To the best of my knowledge, the license sold to Miramax by Saul Zaentz, which then passed to New Line, and then to Warner Brothers, only gave them consecutive options to make "theatrical releases" based on LOTR and TH. My understanding is that Zaentz' company retained the television rights. So any involvement by WB would have to be pursuant to some new agreement with Middle-earth Enterprises.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 10 2017, 9:00pm


Views: 9914
     Maybe, maybe not.


In Reply To
To the best of my knowledge, the license sold to Miramax by Saul Zaentz, which then passed to New Line, and then to Warner Brothers, only gave them consecutive options to make "theatrical releases" based on LOTR and TH. My understanding is that Zaentz' company retained the television rights. So any involvement by WB would have to be pursuant to some new agreement with Middle-earth Enterprises.


Perhaps there is a new arrangement with Middle-earth Enterprises. Or maybe the rights controlled by Warner Bros. are more extensive than you believed. It might even be that this is a brand new agreement between Warner Bros. and the Tolkien Estate involving The Silmarillion or some other work, though the mention of The Lord of the Rings argues against that interpretation.

We will just have to wait until we get more facts.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 10 2017, 9:01pm)


Bombadil
Half-elven


Nov 11 2017, 11:42am


Views: 9809
     A few years ago or was it ..an AGE?

Your Everlasting Bomby disappeared back
into the OLD Forest for a Spell &
found something changed in
the Waters of the
"Withywillow"..

The anger of Old Man Willow had finally withered
SoOoo bomby brought home the pieces
...of him for Goldberry to tend in a
Roaring Bonfire to finally
drive out the Dead
on the Moors.

So it became Safe for Bom
to leave his Forest
Finally...

Love is Good & Long time No see?
Dear dormouse,

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Bombadil
Half-elven


Nov 11 2017, 11:52am


Views: 9819
     Speculation is a Bit like Imagination?

Worry is a waste of imagination.

WHO IF?..WHAT IF?..WHEN IF?.. WHERE IF?....... HOW IF
........... ...

What does happen?
it's not for us to
decide..

REMEMBER,
Didn't "Mr Worrywort".. have some lines in PJ'S Movies?

bom

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


imin
Valinor


Nov 11 2017, 6:00pm


Views: 10220
     Very Interesting

Been following this thread since it was posted and its very interesting reading the different reactions to the articles. I also feel i can see it from the two main sides (people wanting it, people not) as i was excited for the LOTR films and overall really enjoyed them, then was cautiously excited for hobbit movies and disliked them. I also dont want a silmarillion movie (rumours/desire in past of this) as i dont think it can be all shown in a film.

For the TV show, i think the format suits Tolkien's work more than film. If this was before the hobbit movies, i would have probably said no way but if the hobbit films have shown me anything its that it doesnt really matter if the new adaptation is bad, the original is still present, in the form of the books. In the past i was more, 'they can't do this as it will take away from the books or become the main version of M-e for the general public'. Now i realise the movies are the main version of M-e for the public but that doesnt matter as it isn't for me and also the bad films didn't diminish my love for the books.

After all that i now think, go for it. Lets see how it is, if its bad then so what, can't be worse than the hobbit films and if they are then as others have said the books are always going to be there. I also think the LOTR movies are considered by many to be classics and the new tv show whatever it is won't diminish that either as some worry it might, but obviously the same applies here as the new tv show doesnt take away from the LOTR trilogy.

I think if done right it will be way better than the films as i like the tv format for Tolkien's work, if done badly then i either just won't watch all of it or after its finished pretend it never happened, and in 10-15 years it will be remade anyway!

The bit i find most interesting is the idea of the Tolkien Estate being involved. To me that doesnt really make sense and perhaps its a mistake with the article or perhaps they think its going to happen anyway (the TV show) so might as well get fully involved this time.

Either way im interested to see where it goes but im not overly concerned, the hobbit movies took the concern out of me, haha, im more hopeful than optimistic or pessimistic, i hope it has the same tone as the books and whoever is involved with it does a great job.

All posts are to be taken as my opinion.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Nov 12 2017, 6:11am


Views: 10218
     When Bomby retired from TORn awhile back?

Ted became a good friend on Facebook
Bomby & TN regularly post subjects together.

Now, here is something to ponder.
Ted Naismith was offered one of the Art Director's
jobs when PJ was casting around in 1997. But Ted, had to turn
it down. Therefore it fell to AL & JH who we know did a World Class CrackerJack job. Ted could not
move to NZ from Canada
@ the time.

Would have there been 3 Art Director's then for LOTR?
Maybe? Maybe not?

Like a few others, The Hildebrandt Brothers
& Ted, John Howe, Alan Lee & Ralph Bakshi all were
the Calendar/Book Illustrators bomby grew up with, dreaming of a Movie Version.

40something years ago.

Each had a unique Take on the World we love.
AND each enriched PJ & Weta's direction to fulfill the Promise of a Fully realized version of the 6 films.

No Artist works without influences.
EXAMPLE: much of the Lighting & Landscapes in Rivendale look like Maxfield Parish.
(Who inspired most illustrators since the early 20th Century.}

bomby is no way
Rates any of these Guys
higher than ANY other because "Truth Art"
is what YOU
make of
it?

{Hidy HO..dormouse, dear} &
Goldberry sends many Kisses?

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Annael
Immortal


Nov 12 2017, 3:38pm


Views: 10212
     I asked this question many times of the "book purists" back in the day.

No one ever answered. I am truly curious.

I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around … The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.

-- Gaston Bachelard

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Nov 12 2017, 6:02pm


Views: 10200
     My apologies.

My lack of lack of follow up wasn't for any reason other than the fact that I missed your response.

As for comparisons to book purists who don't want films made, I don't consider that to be quite the same thing. I, myself, have never objected to a piece of literature being adapted into cinematic form.

But that is not this. The Lord of the Rings films stand as cinematic classics within the world of cinema. I would no more want remakes of 2001: A Space Odyssey, Lawrence of Arabia, Amadeus or The Godfather.

This may come from the fact that my first love is cinema, not literature (as much as I dearly love reading). As a result, I respect that others will not share my opinion. And, to be honest, does my opinion really even matter at all? It's not in my control whether LotR or any of those other masterpieces are remade into new films, television series or what-have-you.

But my position is what it is. My youth was too bound up in the evolution, experience and euphoria of these films for me to be anything other than fiercely protective of their legacy.

For those who want the television series, I sincerely hope you enjoy it. But, for me, Middle-earth on screen is, and always will be, McKellen, Wood, Astin, Mortensen, Shore, Lesnie, Jackson, New Zealand, etc.

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen

(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Nov 12 2017, 6:03pm)


Ettelewen
Rohan

Nov 13 2017, 12:19am


Views: 10068
     Nice insights Bomby.

And I agree.

So glad you're back! Cool


Beleg Cúthalion
The Shire


Nov 13 2017, 6:25am


Views: 10034
     I definitely agree with you.

My whole stance on this matter is due to the fact that the films are what introduced me to Tolkien's works. I have stated before in one of my previous posts that Peter Jackson's adaptation came out when I was a very young child. I distinctly remember watching 'The Return of the King' in the cinema, and I was only five years old. I read that you love cinema more than you love literature, and for me it is the opposite. I revere literature more than I do cinema, but these films are ones that I hold very dear to my heart, and I have ever since I saw them a decade and a half ago. I have also stated that I am not opposed to another adaptation, simply because I can choose not to watch it, but the fact remains that Tolkien's masterpieces are my favorite works of all time, and I would be greatly disappointed to see them tarnished just for the sake of making money.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Nov 13 2017, 1:12pm


Views: 9976
     Frodo (Elijah Wood) on the Possible remake of LotR

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXeuDea-mtg&feature=youtu.be

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Annael
Immortal


Nov 13 2017, 2:50pm


Views: 10034
     that makes sense

I am a book-firster, and very much a book person (although I love movies). I was 15 when I first read the books and they were a revelation to me - euphoria, as you say - I read LOTR in one sitting, hardly sleeping for three days, then started over, then re-read it AGAIN all in the space of two weeks. I never wanted to leave Middle-earth (much preferable to my teenage existence here). I've read the books every year since then and I go right back into that space.

Unlike the people we called book purists, I was excited for a live-action version. PJ did a good job, but many of the actors looked nothing like my mental image of the characters from the book (for example all the Numenoreans - Aragorn, Boromir, Faramir - should have been dark-haired; Aragorn should have been well over 6 feet tall) or in some cases behave as the book characters do (Faramir would have never dragged the hobbits to Osgiliath; Aragorn would never have doubted his course, Arwen would never have lost faith, Sam would never have left Frodo for a second, Gandalf would not have gone all worried and said "I've sent him to his death" in the third movie, he knew exactly what would happen, etc. etc.). Rivendell and Hobbiton were fine, Edoras and Helm's Deep were great, but that was not Lothlorien as Tolkien described it (big trees standing well apart in a grassy land) and Minas Tirith was too compressed. There are side streets!

And don't get me started on the 'scrubbing bubbles' Dead or the hyena wargs.

So for me the movies were not perfect, and I have this hope that the story WILL be retold someday in a way closer to my own mental images.

But I can see that if the movies were your very first experience then that's how you would see those characters and events.

I'm curious if you have read the books and if it bothered you that the people didn't always behave as you expected them to - that Tolkien's version of the story differs from Jackson's?

(I like to think that Tolkien wrote the story as an Elf, looking back on events from Valinor, while Jackson retold it as a Man would.)

I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around … The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.

-- Gaston Bachelard

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967

(This post was edited by Annael on Nov 13 2017, 2:52pm)


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Nov 13 2017, 6:14pm


Views: 9952
     Actually...

...the books were my first experience of Middle-earth. I read The Hobbit in 2000, and then LotR in 2001. (I wrote a very detailed piece in December 2010, here on the board, that probably paints a better picture of my experience than I probably could write again - http://newboards.theonering.net/...?post=311417;#311417

Interestingly, though, the fact that I read the book so close to the release of the film only strengthens my connection to PJ's films. When I read the books, I had the mental images of the actors as their characters. Though their actions may have differed in the films, they still looked exactly like their book counterparts to me. Likewise, much of PJ's imagery from the very early trailers carried over for me while reading Tolkien's text.

So, in essence, the reading of the books and the experience of the films was one long emotional journey for me. Things differed in the films from Tolkien's text, sure, but I've never been one to object to such things in an adaptation. What mattered, largely, was that the films were everything I had built up in my head over the year or more that I had been immersing myself in Middle-earth. More than that, they had exceeded my expectations. I remember the feeling I had walking out of the theater that first time in December 2001. I was so happy and overcome with emotion that I felt like my heart would burst. And that feeling continued over the next two years.

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 13 2017, 6:22pm


Views: 9943
     Sean Astin: "If it's really good, I'll watch."


In Reply To
My whole stance on this matter is due to the fact that the films are what introduced me to Tolkien's works. I have stated before in one of my previous posts that Peter Jackson's adaptation came out when I was a very young child. I distinctly remember watching 'The Return of the King' in the cinema, and I was only five years old.


Well, a new Middle-earth television series could be for a young person today what Peter Jackson's LotR films were to you. Unfortunately, many youths tend to dismiss what appealed to previous generations unless it is presented to them in a fresh manner. This could be the portal for them into the works of Tolkien and the worlds of fantasy in general.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Nov 13 2017, 6:40pm


Views: 9951
     This looks like confirmation

http://www.comingsoon.net/tv/news/902705-confirmed-amazon-to-adapt-j-r-r-tolkiens-the-lord-of-the-rings

"Confirmed: Amazon to Adapt J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings
Amazon today confirmed the rumors that it has acquired the global television rights to The Lord of the Rings, based on the celebrated fantasy novels by J.R.R. Tolkien, with a multi-season commitment. The upcoming Amazon Prime Original will be produced by Amazon Studios in cooperation with the Tolkien Estate and Trust, HarperCollins and New Line Cinema, a division of Warner Bros. Entertainment."

"Set in Middle Earth, the television adaptation will explore new storylines preceding J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Fellowship of the Ring. The deal includes a potential additional spin-off series."

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Bombadil
Half-elven


Nov 13 2017, 8:30pm


Views: 9960
     Good..

 

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Fereth
Rivendell


Nov 14 2017, 2:24am


Views: 9955
     Some of the PJ film actors may be too expensive

Or unwilling to commit to a TV series.

That said I'd love to see the Mirkwood trio again, especially some closure between Thranduil and Legolas. Plus Lee Pace and Evangeline Lilly's chemistry was too good not to be implemented again.


In Reply To

In Reply To
Hugo Weaving, Lee Pace, Cate Blanchett, Orlando Bloom and Evangeline Lilly
Would these actors reprise their roles in a prequel Tolkien show, for example Angmar's war against the Dunedains, Forging of the rings of power, Fall of a Numenor or young Aragorn? Or is TV format off limit for them?


Very likely not, at least not in their original roles. If the series (if it happens) is not based on the Peter Jackson films then there is no reason to even expect to see Tauriel at all since she is not one of Tolkien's characters.

Anything based directly on the LotR Appendices is at least a remote possibility.



Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Nov 14 2017, 2:49am


Views: 9943
     I know I'm in the extreme minority here...

...but I'd love a series that featured Evangeline Lilly's Tauriel heavily. I mean, even I wasn't crazy about the love story writing in BotFA, but I loved Evangeline in the role and would love to see more of her.

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen

(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Nov 14 2017, 2:49am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 14 2017, 5:08am


Views: 9945
     Maybe a character inspired by Tauriel?


In Reply To
...but I'd love a series that featured Evangeline Lilly's Tauriel heavily. I mean, even I wasn't crazy about the love story writing in BotFA, but I loved Evangeline in the role and would love to see more of her.


I think that Tauriel was not a bad character per se. I do think the relationship that was established between her and Kili was misguided. And she was far too exceptional to be thought of as a common Wood-elf with a commoner's perspective.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Bombadil
Half-elven


Nov 14 2017, 6:53am


Views: 9845
     The " 3 Circus Rings of Finance" involved now? don't interest bomby.

What is put finally on Screen does.

Speculation on Story lines might benefit..
from major input from us.

SoOoo would they consider asking
the many, many Tolkien Affiliates
throughout history?

{ Those who walked the, Long & Winding Road over the last Age" from the 1960s,1970s,1980s,1990s.}. have a say?

Old bom is not speculating that thizz should be a Story Series made by our committeezz
but the Reality of Filmaking
always izzz.
in some Skyscraper
Boardroom..under financial deadlines.

Don't compromise Tolkien with Bean Counters..Please & Thank you.
Goldberry does like thizz.

{sent by a Talking Purse
who got his voice from bomby in the First Age}

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Nov 14 2017, 7:41am


Views: 9895
     But then we wouldn’t get Evangeline...

Tongue

As I said, I know I’m in the minority around these parts. I thought she was a wonderful character, and I really do think there’d be a lot they could explore with her.

Not going to happen most likely, of course, but if now isn’t a time for longshot wishes, then when is?

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen


malickfan
Gondor


Nov 14 2017, 12:52pm


Views: 9858
     I liked Evageline Lilly's performance...

...but I disliked her character arc (something that I could apply to many of the Jacksonverse characters), this prequel TV series will likely have even more brand new characters, arcs etc, it will be interesting to see if fan reaction is just as mixed this time, given the paucity of Tolkien material to work from, I think some of my issues with Tauriel were less to do with the character itself, and more down to the writers implying Tolkien would have supported the additions...

A Tauriel series wouldn't interest me at all, but it would be entirely made up so weirdly I have no opposition to it...








Fereth
Rivendell


Nov 14 2017, 1:53pm


Views: 9814
     I'd be with you on that.

But I won't get my hopes up. I'd be happy with something that just gave her a better arc and closure than BOTFA did, even if she were a supporting character rather than a main one.


In Reply To
...but I'd love a series that featured Evangeline Lilly's Tauriel heavily. I mean, even I wasn't crazy about the love story writing in BotFA, but I loved Evangeline in the role and would love to see more of her.



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 14 2017, 2:50pm


Views: 9794
     Evangeline Lilly


In Reply To
Tongue

As I said, I know I’m in the minority around these parts. I thought she was a wonderful character, and I really do think there’d be a lot they could explore with her.

Not going to happen most likely, of course, but if now isn’t a time for longshot wishes, then when is?


The odds of Evangeline Lilly coming back to television at this time seem pretty low anyway to me. On the other hand, if we are not revisiting the timeline of the films then we might also see the Master of Lake-town suffer the fate that Tolkien wrote for him as a part of the new show (assuming anyone finds an excuse to take Aragorn or some other character into the Waste north of the Long Lake and Erebor).

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Altaira
Superuser


Nov 14 2017, 4:51pm


Views: 9849
     Hey Voronwe

Nice to see you posting in these threads. Your expertise is much appreciated. Smile

Question for you: a TORn staff member has a copy of the original agreement related to Tolkien's sale of 'a number of rights' to United Artists, and isn't seeing anything specific to television rights, the conclusion being that Tolkien never sold them. If Tolkien never sold them, that would explain the involvement of the Tolkien Estate. Further, the blurb regarding licenses on Middle-earth Enterprises' site says:


Quote
Middle-earth Enterprises owns exclusive worldwide rights to motion picture, merchandising, stage and other rights in certain literary works of J.R.R. Tolkien including The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit.


Television rights are conspicuously absent. I realize (and even suspect) there could have been negotiations that we're not privy to after the original sale. I'm just trying to nail down whether those rights transferred with the original agreement, or perhaps not. Since you're so well-versed in this, do you have any additional insight?


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 14 2017, 5:42pm


Views: 9810
     Other Rights?

The term "other rights" could include the television rights, but one might expect Middle-earth Enterprises to specify them rather than leave it implied or to be inferred. So, you raise a very good question.

Who did Rankin/Bass deal with in order to make the animated television specials of The Hobbit and The Return of the King? I only own a copy of the former; I'm afraid that the opening and end credits are not particularly helpful unless there is a clue in this:


Quote
Based on the Original Version of "The Hobbit" by J.R.R. Tolkien


There is also no mention on the packaging of: The Saul Zaentz Company; Tolkien Enterprises; Middle-earth Enterprises; Christopher Tolkien; the Tolkien Estate; or, the Tolkien Trust.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 14 2017, 6:07pm


Views: 9733
     Not quite the "Original Version"

Despite the opening credits statement, we can tell from the "Riddle Game" sequence that the Rankin/Bass Hobbit is based on the second edition of the book, not exactly the original version if we're being picky.

There is arguably a cheat in the animated film that I never noticed before.

GANDALF: The map shows the safest path [through Mirkwood].

I'm not sure what map he's talking about. The map of the Lonely Mountain shows no such path; and I am not aware that Thorin or anyone else in the company is ever shown in possession of a map of Wilderland (though I suppose that they could have acquired one in Rivendell).

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 14 2017, 6:15pm)


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Nov 14 2017, 6:24pm


Views: 10241
     The original 1969 agreements included an option to purchase "television series rights" for a pittance

I have copies of the two 1969 agreements in which the film rights were originally sold. With regard to a television series (as opposed to televising a motion picture which is covered in the main provision granting film rights) they granted the purchaser (which at the time was United Artists, but which now is the late Saul Zaentz's Middle-earth Enterprises) the option to purchase rights to a television series so long as it is within five years of the first general release of the last motion picture made from the books, for what appears to be a very small amount of money. To back up for a second, for some reason that I still don't understand, there were two separate agreements in 1969, one between UA and George Allen & Unwin (Tolkien's publisher, and the predecessor of Harper Collins) covering The Hobbit and The Two Towers, and one between UA and "SASSOON TRUSTEE AND EXECUTOR CORPORATION, LTD." which was a trust set up to represent Tolkien's interests, covering FOTR and ROTK. The terms of the two agreements are similar but not identical. With regard to television series, the agreement with Allen & Unwin covering The Hobbit and The Two Towers states:


Quote
10. The Seller hereby grants to the Purchaser the option to acquire television series rights in and to the Work. Such option may be exercised by the Purchaser at any time within five (5) years after the first general release of the last motion picture photoplay based upon the Work or THE TRILOGY. · A picture shall be deemed to be the "last motion picture photoplay based upon the Work or THE TRILOGY" if principal photography has not commenced on a subsequent motion picture photoplay within three years from the first general release of the previous motion picture photoplay based upon the Work or THE TRILOGY. "Television series rights" shall be deemed to mean the sole and exclusive right to use a character or characters., characterizations., names of characters., settings locations., themes., or other material ·suggested by or derived from the Work and the titles thereof in different stories, in separate episodes and/or in serial type television programs.

Should the Purchaser exercise such option as aforesaid, then the Purchaser shall pay to the Seller the sum of $3,250.00 against the following sums:
Two hundred fifty Dollars ($250.00) for each one-half hour episode; and Three hundred thirty three and 33/100 Dollars ($333.33) for each one (1) hour episode; and Five hundred Dollars ($500.OO) for each episode one and one-half (1-1/2) hours or longer. The said sum of $3,250.00 shall apply against the first payment due under the per episode payments. From and after the time when additional sums are payable, such sums shall be paid at or before the commencement of principal photography of each episode. In addition to the foregoing sums, the Seller shall be entitled to receive, and the Purchaser shall pay 25% of the original payment for each of the first four ( 4) re-runs of each such television episode, the fourth of such rerun payments to constitute full and final payment for all subsequent re-run rights without limitation.

Nothing in this Paragraph 10 contained shall constitute a requirement on the part of the Purchaser to produce or distribute any television series or episodes, whether or not the option shall have been exercised.


And the agreement with Sassoon covering FOTR and ROTK states:


Quote
9. The Seller hereby grants to the Purchaser the option to acquire television series rights in and to the Work. Such option may be exercised by the Purchaser at any time within five (5) years after the first general release of the last motion picture photoplay based upon the Work or THE TRILOGY or THE HOBBIT. A picture shall be deemed to be the "last motion picture photoplay based upon the Work or THE TRILOGY or THE HOBBIT" if principal photography has not commenced on a subsequent motion picture photoplay within three years from the first general release of the previous motion picture photoplay based upon the Work or THE TRILOGY or THE HOBBIT. "Television series rights" shall be deemed to mean the sole and exclusive right to use a character or characters, characterizations, names of characters, settings, locations, themes, or other material suggested by or derived from the Work and the titles thereof in different stories, in separate episodes and/or in serial type television programs.

Should the Purchaser exercise such option as aforesaid, then the Purchaser shall pay to the Seller the sums set forth on SCHEDUIE B attached hereto and made a part hereof.

Nothing in this Paragraph 9 contained shall constitute a requirement on the part of the Purchaser to produce or distribute any television series or episodes, whether or not the option shall have been exercised.

SCHEDULE B
Should the Purchaser exercise its option as in Paragraph 9 provided, then Purchaser shall pay to the Seller .the sum of Six Thousand Five Hundred ($6,500.00) Dollars against the following sums:
Five Hundred ($500.00) Dollars for each one-half (1/2) hour episode; and Six Hundred sixty Six and 67/100 ($666.67) Dollars for each one (1) hour episode; and One Thousand ($1,000.00) Dollars for each episode one and one-half (1-1/2) hours or longer. The said sum of $6,500.00 shall apply against the first payment due under the per episode payment. From and after the time when additional sums are payable, such sums shall be paid at or before the commencement of principal photography of each episode. In addition to the foregoing sums, the Seller shall be entitled to receive, and the Purchaser shall pay twenty five percent (25%) of the original payment for each of the first four (4) re-runs of each such television episode, the fourth of such re-run payments to constitute full and final payment for all subsequent re-rìn rights without limitation.



The last motion picture photoplay based upon the Work or THE TRILOGY or THE HOBBIT was released in 2013, so the option to purchase the television rights for some pretty incredibly small numbers (though it is interesting to see that the numbers are slightly higher for FOTR and ROTK than for The Hobbit and The Two Towers) than the numbers being bandied about should have been in play.

Moreover, in a filing in the last lawsuit, one the attorneys representing the Tolkien Estate and Trust, Ricardo Cistero of the firm Greenberg Glusker (the firm that Matt Galsor, the person quoted in the press release as representing the "Tolkien Trust and Estate" is the head of the Entertainment Group of) specifically stated that "The 1969 Agreements granted to United Artists certain film, stage and live television rights in and to the literary works by J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit and three volumes comprising The Lord of the Rings (the “Tolkien Works”)."

So why is that the "Tolkien Estate and Trust" is able to sell these television rights for all of these millions of dollars that are being reported, and why is that there is no mention in any of the reporting about this deal about Middle-earth Enterprises? I am guessing that the confidential settlement that was signed this past July might have included a clause rescinding the option to purchase television series rights that was contained in the original 1969 agreements and therefore was held by Zaentz's company (or at least a provision in which Zaentz's company agreed not to exercise the option). The reasons that I am guessing that are: (1) the person quoted as representing the Estate and Trust is the head honcho of the law firm that represented them in that lawsuit, thus lending credence to the likelihood that it is related to the settlement of the lawsuit; (2) there does not seem to be any mention of Middle-earth Enterprises in any of the reporting on this deal, thus lending credence to the likelihood that M_E Enterprises gave up the right to exercise the option; and (3) the description of the project refers to it being an LOTR project, even though it states that it takes place before the events of FOTR. The timing makes sense, as the reporting suggests the Estate has been shopping these rights in the past several months, since the settlement was reported. But, of course, we may never know the truth of the matter (unless there is another lawsuit some time in the future allowing me to get my hands on more documents Tongue).

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Nov 14 2017, 10:28pm


Views: 9771
     Another tidbit that I just learned

Apparently, Christopher Tolkien resigned as Director of the Tolkien Estate effective the end of August this year.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Nov 14 2017, 10:33pm


Views: 9628
     Well that answers that...

I didn't think he'd sign off on this. Though I hate the thought of the family going against his wishes (if that is what happened).

I'm shocked we didn't know about his resignation until now.

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen

(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Nov 14 2017, 10:34pm)


Ardamírë
Valinor


Nov 14 2017, 11:38pm


Views: 9537
     That makes me sad!

Not necessarily because I know how he ran the estate or anything, but for the passing of the era that his resignation represents.

Here's to Christopher's tireless work bringing us his fathers unpublished works! Heart

"Behold! the hope of Elvenland,
the fire of Fëanor, Light of Morn
before the sun and moon were born,
thus out of bondage came at last,
from iron to mortal hand it passed."
-The Lay of Leithian


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Nov 14 2017, 11:59pm


Views: 9563
     Going out on a high note

I think having successfully brought forth a stand-alone book of the most important (arguably) of the Great Tales, the one that was most meaningful to his father and that reflected the great love between his parents (for all the ups and downs that Ronald and Edith, like all partners, had), Christopher felt he could pass on the torch. Whether there was some element of knowing that this type of deal was inevitable that he needed to stand down to allow it to happen I don't know, and I don't know to.

Here's to Christopher and all of his stupendous work! Heart

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Silverlode
Forum Admin


Nov 15 2017, 12:26am


Views: 9486
     Yeah, I've been trying to reconcile

this development with all that we've known till now of Christopher's views on adaptations, but this would explain a lot. He certainly deserves to enjoy a peaceful retirement at his age, and after all his work on his father's legacy. I hope this decision is not too frustrating for him and he's able to let go and at least be philosophical about it.

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




Altaira
Superuser


Nov 15 2017, 1:02am


Views: 9509
     Thank you!!

I'm amazed at how you keep all of this halfway straight, and I'm no stranger to reading contracts.

By the way, my subject line: Hey Voronwe would have come across better if I'd punctuated it. I intended it to be, Hey, Voronwe! As in: Hey there, Voronwe! i didn't intend it to sound like a summons. Blush


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Nov 15 2017, 2:43am


Views: 9465
     I took it the way you meant it

Heart

But I was also happy to share what I know.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


squire
Half-elven


Nov 15 2017, 3:29am


Views: 9456
     Christopher Tolkien

He has so faithfully represented his father in editing and publishing the elder's works, that it's almost as if J. R. R. Tolkien had two lifetimes, not one, in which to work on the Middle-earth legendarium. At least, that was how one tribute to CT's lifework put it.

Others have disagreed, noting that CT was essentially an editor, while JRRT was essentially a creative artist who, to some degree, needed more of an editor than he ever got while living. CT represents, in this thinking, a creative synergy rather than continuity with his father across a vast time span.

In either case, I agree that it is a hugely important moment in the world of Tolkien studies and Tolkien fandom for Christopher to finally lay his burden down - and for his heirs to take the family heritage in a completely new direction, within just a few weeks time.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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NecromancerRising
Gondor


Nov 17 2017, 6:51am


Views: 9381
     Great news

I am positively excited to see that upcoming project and most probably watch another approach and vision to this fantastic story or the events that precede itHeart

"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"


EomundDaughter
Lorien

Jun 4 2018, 12:54pm


Views: 8586
     WOW

WOW


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 4 2018, 2:57pm


Views: 8530
     Hi there!

Been away for a while? Your last post was almost a year ago!

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock