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Movie Tech. Discussion 15 – Post production: Sound



OhioHobbit
Mithlond

Apr 18 2008, 8:38am


Views: 4518
Movie Tech. Discussion 15 – Post production: Sound
Sound in movie making can be divided up into different categories: There is sound recorded during filming; Many times dialogue must be replaced after filming (ADR); Foley Walkers make "people" sounds, and, of course, there are sound effects. Music is a whole separate thing and I will talk about that next time.

Now, where to begin? How about "Scene 1, take 1?" What is more iconic of movie making than the clapper board?

CLAPPER BOARDS:



The King Kong Production Diaries talk about the clapper board on Disk 1, 8 Oct. 2004. The clapper board has certain information written on it such as the scene, the take, lens size, stop, roll number, and so on. When the arm of the clapper board is clapped against the board, you get two things, the video of the arm being clapped and the audio of the clap. Now you have a precise action and a precise sound that you can use to line up the audio recording and the film. Have you ever seen something where the sound was just a little bit out of sync with the picture? Not pleasant!

SOUND RECORDING:
The King Kong Production Diaries talk about sound recording on Disk 2, 16 Mar. 2005. The person responsible for recording sound during filming is the production sound mixer. On a set there are usually lots of different mics that all go to a mixing board where the volume from each mic can be controlled and the sound from all of the mics combined.

On the productions diaries, they talk about using booms and radio mics. The radio mics are wireless mics like you see on television, but here they are hidden as opposed to being pinned to your lapel. You also have to hide the battery pack somewhere. They commented that they usually try to get a boom mic in as close as possible because the boom mic usually gives better sound.

I was watching the Star Wars Trilogy Bonus Material, "Empire of Dreams" and they were talking about shooting in London and how things were not going very well. They had just finished this one scene and everything had worked and everyone was all excited and then you hear a voice say "The mic was in picture."

The production sound recorder for The Lord of the Rings was Hammond Peek and there is an article about him in The Lord of the Rings Fan Club Official Movie Magazine. They talk about how a lot of the filming was done near the airport in Wellington and the problems that caused. Peek is quoted as saying, "A lot of the time we would stop and wait until the plane flew over that particular studio. But The Lord of the Rings was such a big production that, often, time was money and it became a money equation. If we spend so much of a day waiting for planes, then that represents so many dollars for such a huge crew and operation and gear hire. It is a lot cheaper just to look at post-syncing those lines [recording them again later in a studio]. The decision was made quite early on in the production that would be a lot of post-syncing because the production had to keep going." (1.)

ADR:
This "post-syncing" that he is talking about is called ADR. What does ADR stand for?

"ADR, or Automatic Dialogue Replacement, is the post-production process of replacing an actor’s spoken words from the original production track." (2.)

"This process is called ADR (for automated dialogue replacement), although there is nothing automated about it." (3.)

"The acronym ADR stands for ‘Audio Dialogue Replacement’ or ‘Additional Dialogue Recording’ or ‘Additional Dialogue Replacement’, depending on whom you ask." (4.)

So, that is what ADR stands for. It is Automatic, Automated, Audio, Additional Dialogue Recording, Replacement, depending on whom you ask, but there is nothing automated about it.

In The Lord of the Rings, 98 percent of the dialogue was replaced in ADR. Hammond Peek talked about ADR in the previously mentioned fan club magazine article. He said that in the scene in Moria when Gandalf is talking to Frodo about deciding another’s fate, Ian McKellen totally drew him into the performance, but the dialogue was technically unusable. Thus a great performance was lost and McKellen had to do it all over again in ADR. However, Peek tells another story about the scene after they come out of Moria. Aragorn says, "Get them up, Legolas. We have to get out of here because the hills will be crawling with Orcs by nightfall." The dialogue was technically useable, but they did again in ADR anyway. Peek said, "When I listened to the two up against each other, the recorded lines on location were fine technically, but he gave a different style of delivery in the post-sync lines. He was a little bit softer. He wasn’t as hard and as harsh in the way he was asking them to get up. It worked better for the scene to have him slightly more compassionate." (1.)

FOLEY WALKERS:
I think Foley Walkers are cool. If I worked in the movies, I would want to be a Foley Walker (among other things, depending on which extra I’m watching at the moment).

"Taking its name from Jack Foley, the Hollywood sound editor regarded as the ‘father’ of these effects, Foley effects are sounds that are created by recording (usually) everyday movement while watching the edited picture. Different from the environmental backgrounds (‘BGs’) and hard effects (FX), Foley effects are sounds like footsteps, object handling, the rustling of clothing, etc. The people involved in this process are the Foley Walkers or Artists who perform those sounds and the Foley Mixer who records them. After the Foley Effects are ‘shot,’ the Foley Editor will use his/her craft to polish those sounds to ensure that they are exactly in sync with the final picture." (5.)

In the special features disk for Star Wars III: Revenge of the Sith, Foley Walker Jana Vance said that the purpose of a Foley Walker is to "flesh-out the characters" and that Anakin Skywalker’s sound consisted of a leather jacket, a rifle, and a drill. (6.)

In The Two Towers Extended Edition appendices, Disk 4, "The Soundscapes of Middle-earth," they show the Foley Walkers stomping around to make the foot step sounds while rattling a chunk of leather, a piece of chain mail, and a sword. Foley Artist Phil Heywood remarked, "We actually assume that the movie is filmed mute, because we aren’t hearing any sounds, and we are assuming that everything that we do is all there is."



SOUND EFFECTS:
There are three things that I have heard are supposed to be on the list of "guy things." These are: 1. eating cold pizza (preferably for breakfast), 2. watching The Three Stooges (and enjoying it), and 3. making sound effects. I do happen to fall into that category, but I also know some women who are exceptions to at least two of these.

According to Star Wars producer, Rick McCallum, "Sound works almost subliminally in a movie. In the best case scenario, you are not even aware of the texture and the combinations of sound." (6.) The sound designer on Star Wars, Ben Burtt, feels that, "Many of the best sounds are not things that you think of and imagine and go out and search for, but rather, discoveries you make." (7.)

NOW FOR A QUIZ:
Don’t worry; the answers are below, but no peeking.

In the Star Wars movies how did they make the sound effects for the following?
1. A blaster being fired.
2. R2D2.
3. A light saber being waved about.
4. Darth Vader’s breathing.

In The Lord of the Rings -
1. A Ring Wraith scream.
2. The Watcher in the Water splashing about.
3. Screaming Orc.
4. Moria Orcs scuttling.
5. The Balrog roar.
6. Wargs barking.
7. Fell Beast cry.
8. Fell Beast tail swishing about as it flew over Osgilioth.
9. Skulls falling in The Paths of the Dead.
10. Chunks of Minas Tirith hitting the ground.
11. The Dark Tower falling.

Ok, here are the answers.

In the Star Wars Movies:
1. To make the sound of a blaster being fired, tap a guy wire while holding a mic near it.

2. To make the chirps and whistles of R2D2 they used a synthesizer, but that didn’t have any emotion, no acting ability, so they blended the chirps and whistles with Ben Burtt doing baby talk.

3. I think that the light saber sound is so cool and it was discovered accidently by Ben Burtt when he got a microphone with a broken wire too close to a TV set and the microphone picked up a hum from the set. As he waved the microphone about, the hum would intensify and lessen.

4. Darth Vader’s breathing was done by placing a microphone in the air regulator of a scuba gear and Ben Burtt breathing through it.



In The Lord of the Rings:
1. The scream of the Ring Wraiths was Fran Walsh screaming, doctored a little bit.

2. The Watcher in the Water splashing about was done with a rubber mat and a toilet plunger being splashed about in a creek.

3. One of the Orc screams was a blend of a pig squeal and a dog. They called the sound "pigdog."

4. The Moria Orcs scuttling was done with bottle caps fastened to the bottoms of peoples shoes.

5. The Balrog roar was done by dragging a concrete block across a board.

6. Wargs barking was done by the sound effects guy barking like a dog.

7. The cry of a Fell Beast was the braying of a donkey.

8. The Fell Beast tail swishing about as it flew over Osgilioth was someone swinging a cheese grater on the end of a string.

9. The skulls falling in The Paths of the Dead was done with walnuts (rented ones).

10. The sound of chunks of Minas Tirith hitting the ground was two ton blocks of concrete hitting the ground.

11. The Dark Tower falling was grinding broken glass.





For more information about sound in the movies here are some links.

SOUND:

filmsound.org/sections

filmmaking.com/moviesound

iofilm.co.uk

howstuffworks.com/movie-sound

ADR:

mixonline.com/recording

everything2.com

filmsound.org/terminology/adr

fromscripttodvd.com/adr

FOLEY WALKERS:

makingthefilm.com

postproduction.4filmmaking.com

SOUND EFFECTS:

wildsound-filmmaking-ffedback-events.com

filmsound.org/articles/horrorsound

epicsound.com/sfx

videomaker.com

First question: I saw somewhere in some extra where they talked about making the sound of pulling a sword out of its scabbard. They said that audiences have come to expect this metallic sliding sound that a sword does not really make, but you have to use it. I have looked high and low for that and cannot find it. Has anyone else come across that and knows where it is?

I have always been intrigued by the sound effects of Star Trek, particularly the original TV series. I have never been able to find out how those sounds were made. Are there any sound effects that you have always wondered about or that you thought were really cool and know how they were made?

Any comments or thoughts about The Lord of the Rings sound, ADR, Foley Walkers, or sound effects?

Then there is The Hobbit. Let’s see, you’ve got dishes rattling at The Unexpected Party (that shouldn’t be too difficult), spiders hissing, barrels splashing, and then there is Smaug. What would be some of the sound effects needed for The Hobbit and any ideas on how to make them (including the above)?

Finally and most importantly, is eating cold pizza, liking The Three Stooges, and making sound effects really a guy thing?


Sources:
1. The Lord of the Rings Fan Club Official Movie Magazine, #12 (p. 20-22).
2. moviemaker.com/magazine
3. answers.com/topic/dubbing/
4. Rockfordimages.com/adrimportance
5. Indyfilmco-op.org
6. Star Wars III: Revenge of the Sith, Special Features disk, "Within a Minute: the Making of Episode III," Sound Mix
7. Star Wars II: Attack of the Clones, Special Features Disk, Web Documentary #7


OhioHobbit
Mithlond

Apr 18 2008, 8:43am


Views: 4388
The Wilhelm Scream
If you are making a movie and there is any screaming in it then one of those screams almost has to be the "Wilhelm Scream." Peter Jackson thought that using the Wilhelm Scream was so cool that he had it included in both The Two Towers and Return of the King and had its volume raised.

The Wilhelm Scream, which is really a set of screams that are all referred to as Wilhelm, was recorded in ADR for the movie Distant Drums in 1951. The scream was for a man being pulled under water by an alligator.

After that the scream was filed away in a sound-effects library and used over and over in other movies. One of the movies that it was used in was The Charge at Feather River for when a soldier named Pvt. Wilhelm gets shot in the leg with an arrow.

Sound designer Ben Burtt of Star Wars fame started noticing that one distinctive scream kept popping up in movies over and over. He was able to trace it back to The Charge at Feather River and named it the Wilhelm Scream. After that it became famous among sound designers and the "in" thing to include it in your movie and find it in other movies.

The following link on the Wilhelm Scream is really good. It tells the scream’s history and a lot of the movies that it is in and where to find it and about Peter Jackson using it in The Lord of the Rings.

hollywoodlostandfound.net/wilhelm/


One Ringer
Dor-Lomin


Apr 18 2008, 9:59am


Views: 4329
Foley . . .
I've seen a lot of recent behind the scens look at Foley recently on DVDs. I sometimes just stop and think, how cool of a job would that be? You get down and dirty, just to make sound effects for a movie.Smile
Ash nazg durbatulûk, Ash nazg gimbatul,
Ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.

My Upcoming Discussion Leads:

SCREENCAP OF THE DAY: Week of April 14th
THE TWO TOWERS READING DISCUSSION: The Uruk-Hai - April 21st-27th


weaver
Gondolin

Apr 18 2008, 5:06pm


Views: 4348
Darn, I used to know some of these answers!
I have watched the Making of Star Wars many times -- but I need a review class, alas. And I've never made it through all the LOTR commentaries!

I know some sounds were created by mixing different animal sounds. And I do know the Ring Wraith was Fran Walsh.

Other than that, I am afraid I need to peek!

**peeks**

Shoot! I knew about that cheese grater and those bottle caps!

To answer your other questions:

First question: I saw somewhere in some extra where they talked about making the sound of pulling a sword out of its scabbard. They said that audiences have come to expect this metallic sliding sound that a sword does not really make, but you have to use it. I have looked high and low for that and cannot find it. Has anyone else come across that and knows where it is?

I think I can help you with this. Check the commentaries for FOTR -- I remember that from one of the Annotated Scene discussions I did. Two likely scene candidates are the Prologue or the Aragorn/Lurtz fight scene, because I did both of those discussions. And I think it was John Howe that said it. I "know", though, that you are correct -- someone did indeed say that audiences expect that metallic sound, so they include it, but that swords and scabbards really don't make that sound.

I have always been intrigued by the sound effects of Star Trek, particularly the original TV series. I have never been able to find out how those sounds were made. Are there any sound effects that you have always wondered about or that you thought were really cool and know how they were made?

What I'm intrigued by is where they store all the sounds -- what is it like to have a "sound library?" I watched a lot of those Irwin Allen sci-fi shows, for example, where they not only reused the costumes (and the plots), they reused the sounds as well. Did they go to a place and look up Monster Sound 57?

Any comments or thoughts about The Lord of the Rings sound, ADR, Foley Walkers, or sound effects?

What's fun is learning that some of the highest tech sounds in films are done in very low tech ways. I also wonder what kinds of brains these guys have -- what makes you connect a cheese grater with a fell beast? Were they all "auditory" learners as kids?

Then there is The Hobbit. Let’s see, you’ve got dishes rattling at The Unexpected Party (that shouldn’t be too difficult), spiders hissing, barrels splashing, and then there is Smaug. What would be some of the sound effects needed for The Hobbit and any ideas on how to make them (including the above)?

Hmm...hobbit sounds. I'm kind of curious about Smaug -- he talks, he flies, he rolls around in his treasure. It would seem to me that the big challenge in a case like that is how to not only create all of those sounds, but to mix them together when Smaug is doing more than one thing. Part of the art of sound, I'm guessing is being able to come up with the right blend of sounds when more than one effect is needed -- which may not be the way you'd "actually" hear these things if you were in the room. I know that sound, like light and color, is modified to achieve desired effects in films, but like the sword never actually making a sound, it's driven more perhaps by what the audience "expects" to hear than what you'd actually hear or not hear...

Finally and most importantly, is eating cold pizza, liking The Three Stooges, and making sound effects really a guy thing?

Well, I have three sons under 18, and they have lots of friends, so I am a close observer of the male species. I have found that the more intelligent the guy, the more they like the Three Stooges (that should make you feel better). A liking for cold pizza is less a matter of taste and more a matter of just not wanting to be bothered to heat it up. There are also certain ages where male bonding seems to be totally based upon obnoxious sound making abilities. One time, I had 8 eight-year-olds over for a party and the whole group improvised a complete belching, arm-and-leg farting symphony. I think the process is similar to spontaneous combustion...get enough boys of a certain age in a room, and it just sort of happens.

Weaver



Darkstone
Elvenhome


Apr 18 2008, 5:29pm


Views: 4346
Well
First question: I saw somewhere in some extra where they talked about making the sound of pulling a sword out of its scabbard. They said that audiences have come to expect this metallic sliding sound that a sword does not really make, but you have to use it. I have looked high and low for that and cannot find it. Has anyone else come across that and knows where it is?

John Howe said it in the commentaries. IIRC, it was regarding Aragorn pulling his sword out as Sam and M&P burst through the door at the end of "At The Prancing Pony", but Howe spoke it right during the transition to "The Nazgul".

BTW, when the concrete floor in a Foley stage is poorly poured, they often give off an unfortunate hollow sound. Apparently the WETA Foley stage was poorly poured.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 18 2008, 5:31pm)


OhioHobbit
Mithlond

Apr 19 2008, 2:03am


Views: 4303
Getting down and dirty.
That would have to be cool. And just think, they are able to do that and get paid for it too! Smile


OhioHobbit
Mithlond

Apr 19 2008, 2:09am


Views: 4317
No peeking.
Darkstone told me where the quote about the sword sound is. It is in the commentaries, just like you said. I was beginning to wonder if I had imagined it.

I wonder about this sound library business also. If someone thinks of a sound and remembers that it is in the library, how does she ever remember that it was Monster Sound 57 and then how does she ever find Monster Sound 57?

Quote
Were they all “auditory” learners as kids?
I think that is the thing about these sound guys, that they are all, well, sound guys.

Quote
It would seem to me that the big challenge in a case like that is how to not only create all of those sounds, but to mix them together when Smaug is doing more than one thing.
Boy, is that ever true. Just wait until we get to The Final Mix. It’s coming up.

I knew it! I knew that you had to be intelligent to like the Three Stooges! I do feel better. Alcarcalime and I went to the World Science Fiction Convention in Anaheim, California, in 2006. One of the programs we attended was “Everything I Ever Needed to Know About Quantum Physics I Learned From The Three Stooges.” It was great! I think that the Three Stooges should be referred to more often in the higher levels of science and math. Wink

About the eight-year-olds, just imagine if you had given them Foley props and told them to make sound effects for a home movie! Evil


OhioHobbit
Mithlond

Apr 19 2008, 2:11am


Views: 4316
You’re right!
This was driving me nuts! I knew I saw it somewhere, but I kept looking in the extras under Sound Effects (smacks side of head). Here is what John Howe said.

“This is the terrible, terrible thing in every movie involving swords, isn’t it, is the screech every time a sword is either sheathed or unsheathed, which has to be the most nonsensical bit of sound track that exists.”

Thanks Darkstone!


weaver
Gondolin

Apr 19 2008, 2:28am


Views: 4310
I think John Howe makes this comment more than once...
My recollection of his remarks was more of a regular kind of explanation from John Howe -- he tends to be really long winded and monotone -- and I don't recall it sounding like this, or being from the Bree sequence.

Though after awhile I suppose all those commentaries start to run together!
Weaver



weaver
Gondolin

Apr 19 2008, 2:40am


Views: 4339
The stooge thing and Gerald McBoing Boing...
On the Three Stooges, that observation is not original to me -- I remember actually reading it somewhere, that someone had done a study on guys with high IQ's and a really large number of them liked the 3 S's or other comedy along that line of humor.

On another tangent, there's a great kids book by Dr. Suess called "Gerald McBoing Boing" -- aka "the noise making boy".

All the other kids make fun of him until a radio producer finds out about him and makes him a star. The last illustration in the book is the kid driving off in his chaufferred limo. It's kind of a Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer story for Foley artists...

They made a cartoon of it somewhere along the line -- here's the url for a site where I think you can watch it. (I can't figure out how to make it a link, so this will have to do...)

http://www.bremenonline.org/boing/
Weaver



OhioHobbit
Mithlond

Apr 19 2008, 12:50pm


Views: 4296
Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer for Foley artists.
Quote
I remember actually reading it somewhere, that someone had done a study on guys with high IQ's and a really large number of them liked the 3 S's or other comedy along that line of humor.
Note that the key word here is guys.

Also note that Gerald McBoing Boing is “the noise making boy." I’m actually not familiar with that particular Dr. Suess, but it sounds like an inspiration for all young, aspiring Foley artists and sound designers, male or female. I think it’s so neat that it ends with Gerald driving off in his chauffeured limo. That reminds me of a situation comedy I once saw. It was an office sort of thing about a software company. The only thing I remember about it is the owner of the company saying, “I wish I had a million dollars for every time someone in school called me a nerd. Oh, I do!”

Thanks for the link Weaver. I thought I wasn’t familiar with the story, but now that I have seen it I remember it. The cartoon being a “Mr. Magoo” is an added bonus. Smile


OhioHobbit
Mithlond

Apr 19 2008, 12:51pm


Views: 4299
You’re right!
At least I think you’re right. Afterwards I got to thinking, and I thought that I remembered there being more to it. I thought that maybe it was in the technical commentaries, but maybe it was John Howe. So, the search goes on, but now I know where to look.


Peredhil lover
Doriath

Apr 19 2008, 7:04pm


Views: 4304
Just asked ...
Quote
I wonder about this sound library business also. If someone thinks of a sound and remembers that it is in the library, how does she ever remember that it was Monster Sound 57 and then how does she ever find Monster Sound 57?
Knowing my brother has a gigantic sound archive, I forwarded the question out of curiosity. That was his answer:

spontaneous top twenty ways to instantiate "Monster 57" ...

1) taking endless time for good and long database-descriptions / add. info about room, size, speed, emotion, ...
(Best way for me, since you profit on every search from exact descriptions.
There is no benefit from 5000 different "one-word-description-sounds named "car").
2) complex searches by many parameters at the same time (slows down bad search-engines)
3) special categories / more database-fields than just one field "description"
(known from iTunes as ID3-Tags, available for AIFF too, not only mp3)
4) professional search-software that remembers used files from old projects
5) wasting a lot of time or exploiting cheap trainees
6) trying to create "NEW" monsters for every project
7) giving up early and booking a great foley-artist
8) synonym-definitions in very professional software like "netmix pro"
("monster"-search finds "beast", "creature", ... too)
9) why not recording difficult and quite special sounds better on location already
(lots-of-time&money-saving-experience for the "next" film ...)
10) sending sfx-team to animal-zoo (money-doesnt-matter-projects only)
11) backups of old projects (wow - who does such great backups ?!)
Not even on my 30.000 Gigabyte I backup all projects ....
12) thinking a long time about getting your database structured the right way in the beginning
(generally great idea!)
13) automatic or manual marking of often used or useful sounds - kind of "voting"(but what exactly how
is "Good" defined if you need today Snake-Monsters and tomorrow Raptor-Monsters ?!)
14) take notes about every project in your "project-book" (uhhhh - analog old style ...)
15) Usually there is no ready-to-use "Monster 57" for the individual needs of your picture.
So it always ends up in combining many nice sounds to one really fitting sound
16) fast raid-server for many workstations searching same time
17) handy software like iTunes (for free). Others are Snapper, Audiofinder, MTools, etc.
18) Try and error (most popular !)
19) Less GOOD sounds and long memory
20) bending another sounds by lots of plugins to your needs
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Magpie
Elvenhome


Apr 19 2008, 9:31pm


Views: 4289
I remember Howe commenting that...
...if one heard the sound of 'shing' when a sword was unsheathed, one should immediately dismiss it as an inaccurate representation of how weapons function. What I remember is the phrase, 'one should run the other way'... but I'm not sure whether I heard that or something that got filed in my brain as that phrase.

And I remember seeing his face as he said it so I don't think it was in the commentaries.


magpie avatar gallery ~ soundtrack website


Magpie
Elvenhome


Apr 19 2008, 9:32pm


Views: 4346
per my other comment...
...I'm thinking the segment was on the design of weapons and how John's research and experience with historical weapons and armor helped in the process.


magpie avatar gallery ~ soundtrack website


OhioHobbit
Mithlond

Apr 20 2008, 1:29am


Views: 4311
Top twenty
I love this list! Databases and search-engines, of course, I should have known. Looking through these I was thinking, if the company where I work had a sound library and needed to look up sounds, how would they go about it? Here is what I picked out.

Quote
5) Wasting a lot of time or exploiting cheap trainees.
6) Trying to create “NEW” monsters for every project.
18) Try and error (most popular!)
Yep, I think number 18 would be the most popular where I work. Smile

Thanks Peredhil lover!


Peredhil lover
Doriath

Apr 20 2008, 5:00am


Views: 4300
*grin*
As little brother said, that is most popular. Thinking about it, it would probably be the same at my own work, if we had a sound archive.

I think my bro mentioned long ago he'd been busy properly labeling his sounds, so I think he's using 1) - but only after going through some of the other possibilities and despairing over them Tongue
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


OhioHobbit
Mithlond

Apr 20 2008, 2:11pm


Views: 4280
Thanks Magpie.
I will check that out.


gracie
Nevrast


Apr 21 2008, 2:19am


Views: 4256
Sounds are great!
It is incredible to know how much work goes into sound effects and all the rest, I too have aslo been watching lots of DVD EXTRAS AND VIEWING THE WAYS IN WHICH SOUND IS RECORDED!
I almost want to become a sound engineer....hahaWink


Magpie
Elvenhome


Apr 21 2008, 3:12am


Views: 4284
just fyi:
I kind of fast forwarded through the FOTR extras, mostly disc 3 on design. Although Howe's experience with weapons and armor was discussed, I didn't see the clip I remembered. Disc 4 didn't look promising enough (in it's title headings) to investigate.

It might do well to keep in mind an image I had in my mind that went with a comment I remembered hearing. After spending forever trying to track it down, I finally looked through a written magazine article and found the quote. I had apparently created the visual and auditory memory. My visual memory of Howe is that he is standing outside while speaking the 'shing' quote.


magpie avatar gallery ~ soundtrack website


OhioHobbit
Mithlond

Apr 21 2008, 5:45pm


Views: 4236
I agree.
Sounds are great. I have always loved the sound effects from science fiction movies. A long, long time ago I bought a sound synthesizer chip and was going to build a synthesizer so that I could make my own electronic sound effects, but it got pushed aside and I never did. I still have that chip lying around somewhere. Maybe one of these days…


OhioHobbit
Mithlond

Apr 21 2008, 5:46pm


Views: 4238
That’s a good thought!
While I am at it, I am going to check out my magazines too.


grammaboodawg
Elvenhome


Apr 23 2008, 1:05am


Views: 4235
Boom in the shot!
That's what those clapper boards do! I know they've been around forever, and that each of the principle players got their last ones used for their final scenes as gifts at their wrap parties, but I didn't know that the sound and snap/clap was used to ensure the sound and film were in sync. Way Cool!

From the cast commentaries, I know there are scenes that were essentially finished/finishable because Elijah Wood mentions a few times that they wondered if they left some scenes/shots in the film... like when Frodo and Sam are fighting at the bottom of the stairs in Osgiliath or when Merry and the hobbits are asleep in the Prancing Pony. They wouldn't wonder if the clips would be in the extended edition if they hadn't done what they presumed would be finished work on ADR.

I wish they had used the ADR for a few scenes that they had in the trailers. Like Aragorn's address to the armies in front of the Black Gate. For me, the trailer's clip has a lot more emotion in his voice... a bit softer in spots. When Sam is crying out NO! to Frodo when he puts on the Ring at Sammath Naur, he has the incredible curl at the end of the "no" that just kills me!

What I can't get over is the emotion in their voices for the ADR. Frodo crying out to Faramir to let him go as they approach burning Osgiliath, the scene in Moria... and probably when Gandalf is comforting Pippin as he talks about death in Minas Tirith. How in the world do they get that emotion back into their performance after months of continuing their work and being away from that moment. Again, the mark of a truly amazing cast if they can go back into the moments and bring them to life again. Staggering! Magical! I know that John Noble spoke to having trouble getting back into character at times. Not surprising at all!

Would you believe I still haven't listened to all of the specials and extras from Two Towers and Return of the King? I'm saving them for those days when I need to experience new discoveries about the films again. BUT... maybe I can watch them all now since we have The Hobbit on the Horizon! *twitch*

I'd want to be a foley, too, OhioHobbit. Doesn't that look like a fun job!? Trying different things to create sounds to represent characters and events would be such a treasure hunt. Love it!

This was amazing! Thank you so much!
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Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Apr 23 2008, 4:06am


Views: 4278
I haven't listened to
the last two commentaries on any of the discs. Something to look forward to. :)
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.

Ataahua's stories


OhioHobbit
Mithlond

Apr 23 2008, 11:40pm


Views: 4231
I find ADR absolutely amazing.
Like you say, I don’t see how they are ever able to get back into the emotion of their performances while standing in front of a microphone in a little sound booth. I guess that is why they get paid the big bucks, as they say. But even beyond that, I think that it is amazing that they are able to sync so well. When I am watching any movie I would never know that ADR was used. I think that the acting in these movies was absolutely fantastic by everyone and I don’t think enough credit was given by the media, at least the media I have access to. I don’t mean awards, but just the morning shows and talk shows and that sort of thing. Maybe it was different elsewhere.

Being a Foley walker would not only be fun, it would be good exercise too. Smile


grammaboodawg
Elvenhome


Apr 25 2008, 1:40am


Views: 3275
I always laugh
whenever I hear the Wilhelm scream. It's even in Hellboy! (near the beginning when one of the bad guys get's sucked into the vortex and turns skeletal).

It's as classic as those squealing tires followed by a crash or those happy baby noises you used to always hear on advertisements. There are just some iconic audios that will never die.


sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


_V_
Menegroth


Apr 25 2008, 1:42am


Views: 3274
once someone explains what the Wilhelm scream is....
...you'll notice it EVERY time its used in a film for the rest of your life

I mean I'm watching the premiere of ROTK, and Legolas is throwing a Haradrim soldier off of the Oliphaunt he has borded, and as he's falling......yeah, in my head I'm just going "Wilhelm scream!"
"Pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name, but what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game"

Formerly known on TORN as "Draug the Unspeakably Violent"


OhioHobbit
Mithlond

Apr 26 2008, 12:33am


Views: 3264
You scream, I scream, we all scream for. . .
Wilhelm.Wink I wonder if it will show up in The Hobbit?


obi1jacobi
Registered User

Apr 28 2008, 4:37pm


Views: 3273
Oh that Wilhelm
I'm a sound designer for films and always have found the Wilhelm phenomenon fascinating. I think the funniest part of the recording, is that it never seems to actually match the action of the person screaming. You can try to bury it in the mix and give it the right acoustic space, but it will always be ridiculous - I think that is its charm. I'm pretty sure I'm going to create a project where every normal sound is replaced with the Wilhelm scream - maybe pitch shifted for different people, places, things. Would that be amusing?


This was a very fun thread - I'm glad to see sound being taken seriously! It's truly the unsung hero of films - it is kind of ironic that the films that have excellent sound are hardly ever recognized for their great sound, but cinematography is always pointed out. It's true that sound works on a more subliminal level, which is so interesting for creative possibilities. Often we just view films with great sound as great movies - films without adequate sound just don't spark the imagination as well.

Walter Murch (sound designer for Apocalypse Now, The Conversation, American Graffiti) wrote a great article about our inception of sound that you'll all find interesting:


"There is something about the liquidity and all-encompassing embrace of sound that might make it more accurate to speak of her as a queen rather than a king. But was she then perhaps a queen for whom the crown was a burden, and who preferred to slip on a handmaiden's bonnet and scurry incognito through the back passageways of the palace, accomplishing her tasks anonymously?
There is a similar mystery hidden in our own biology: four and a half months after we are conceived, we are already beginning to hear. It is the first of our senses to be switched on, and for the next four and a half months sound reigns as a solitary Queen of the Senses. The close and liquid world of the womb makes sight and smell impossible, taste and touch a dim and generalized hint of what is to come. Instead, we luxuriate in a continuous bath of sounds: the song of our mother's voice, the swash of her breathing, the piping of her intestines, the timpani of her heart.
Birth, however, brings with it the sudden and simultaneous ignition of the other four senses, and an intense jostling for the throne that Sound had claimed as hers alone. The most notable pretender is the darting and insistent Sight, who blithely dubs himself King and ascends the throne as if it had been standing vacant, waiting for him.
Surprisingly, Sound pulls a veil of oblivion across her reign and withdraws into the shadows.
So we all begin as hearing beings — our four and a half month baptism in a sea of sound must have a profound and everlasting effect on us — but from the moment of birth onward, hearing seems to recede into the background of our consciousness and function more as an accompaniment to what we see. Why this should be, rather than the reverse, is a mystery: why does not the first of our senses to be activated retain a lifelong dominance of all the others?"



You can read the rest of it here if you're interested:
http://www.filmsound.org/murch/stretching.htm






Yay for my first post on The One Ring Forums!


OhioHobbit
Mithlond

Apr 29 2008, 12:51am


Views: 3258
Hi, Obi1jacobi!
Wow, a sound designer! Great! I just wanted to take a minute to say, Hi and Welcome. There is some great stuff in your post and I will get back to you in more detail tomorrow. Thanks Obi1jacobi.


OhioHobbit
Mithlond

Apr 29 2008, 11:25pm


Views: 3252
The charm of Wilhelm.
Quote
You can try to bury it in the mix and give it the right acoustic space, but it will always be ridiculous - I think that is its charm.
If the Wilhelm scream actually fit and matched well it might be harder to spot and where would be the fun in that. Wink I think that a film full of Wilhelm screams would be great! If nothing else, it would be a big hit with sound professionals.

I think that you’re right about sound in movies not getting enough recognition, even though bad sound could ruin an otherwise good movie. It would be interesting to see and hear examples of the good and the bad.

Thanks for the link to the Walter Murch article at filmsound.org. It is an excellent history of film sound and I enjoyed reading it.

How long have you been a sound designer? How do you like it? I worked for the telephone company many, many moons ago and one of the things that I did was to travel around adjusting the sound quality of long distance circuits. This consisted mainly of impedance matching, especially where the separate transmit and receive paths of a long distance circuit would change to a single two way path of a local circuit. I’m still interested in sound and sound quality.

Be sure to catch the next Movie Technical Discussion which will be posted Friday. It’s going to be about the final mix and I think that you will find it interesting.


obi1jacobi
Registered User

Apr 30 2008, 12:46am


Views: 3256
Sound Design
I'm currently graduating college this May (just a few weeks left!) where I'm getting my degree in cinema/audio production. I guess I've only truly considered myself a sound designer for a little over a year (as in having a reputation for doing sound for films that aren't my own). I've always been interested in sound (did a lot of sound design/sound board operating for community theater) but it has been in the past year that I've discovered I want to keep doing it professionally. It's challenging work - right now I'm working on a mix for a film that's only 15 minutes long, but it took me ages to get this one 7 minute scene the way I want it (I can go into endless detail if you guys are interested), but work that I've found I really like doing. Half the time I start at 10pm and keep experimenting until I hear the birds chirping outside.

I'm certainly a stickler for sound quality too. I think one of the things that bothers me most is when people have these enormously expensive home theater systems, but don't configure them correctly for good sound.

On another note, I pretty much watch the special features on dvds as much as the films themselves. I especially loved the ROTK special edition features.

You've been doing a great job with the movie tech threads! Keep em up! I'm looking forward to the final mix discussion :)


OhioHobbit
Mithlond

Apr 30 2008, 11:43pm


Views: 3251
Working until the birds sing.
I know what you mean about working on something until you hear the birds chirping. I've done that myself a time or two. Time seems to be suspended when you’re concentrating on something like that.

Times have certainly changed. What used to annoy me were car and home stereos where the people thought that raw power was more important than quality. Usually, someone would say, “Check out my new stereo, it has 10 million watts of power” and I would say, “That’s very nice, but what is its frequency response?” and the reply would be, “Who cares, I can rattle windows 5 blocks away!”

Same here on the DVD extras. Smile