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New Line Cinema Sued by Tolkein Estate (over film profits...)



JRandomRohirrim
Rohan


Feb 11 2008, 8:39pm


Views: 22518
New Line Cinema Sued by Tolkein Estate (over film profits...)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080211/ap_en_mo/tolkien_lawsuit_1


It's Official! Jackson to Produce The Hobbit! Woot! Woot!


diedye
Grey Havens


Feb 11 2008, 8:54pm


Views: 19948
*watches Bob Shaye try to put out the flames on his coattails*...

*watches them turn to ashes*

*shaking head*

I swear, if this whole Newlne lawsuit business wasn't so pathetic, it would make a great cartoon.



MrCere
Sr. Staff


Feb 11 2008, 8:57pm


Views: 19844
I was pretty surprised not to see this posted

So I posted on main and then found it here. Seems kinda MAIN BIG NEWS WOW CAN YOU BELIEVE IT type news to me but thanks for getting it up and on the site.

I think I may file against New Line as well - all the cool kids are suing them. Tongue I wonder if this will end up being another attempt to open the books and the $6 billion reported in the article means (according to my own theory) that each Hobbit movie is worth about $2 billion, give or take. Wow.

The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie


JRandomRohirrim
Rohan


Feb 11 2008, 8:59pm


Views: 19973
But, in this case, the suit may be off-base

The claim is the movies made 6 billion (yes, that's with a B) dollars worldwide.

Wouldn't THAT have been nice?? Not even the Harry Potter or Pirates movies (combined) have made that much.


It's Official! Jackson to Produce The Hobbit! Woot! Woot!


MrCere
Sr. Staff


Feb 11 2008, 9:01pm


Views: 19847
I think that isn't box office receipts

That is DVD sales and lunch box sales and costume sales and Evenstar replica sales and so forth and so on forever and ever amen.

I can look at my own modest collection of stuff surrounding the films and the price I paid for movie tickets is only a small fraction of money spent. I can believe that figure.

The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie


Lunamoth
Rohan


Feb 11 2008, 9:14pm


Views: 19762
merch sales

Yeah, it has to include merch sales. Ticket sales for the trilogy worldwide was $2,913.1 million according to Rotten Tomatoes. But all those little figurines and busts and so forth that continue to be licensed add up way more than movie tickets!



Elven
Valinor


Feb 11 2008, 9:14pm


Views: 19724
Article here ...

   
http://news.yahoo.com/...mo/tolkien_lawsuit_1


Quote


By ALEX VEIGA, AP Business Writer

LOS ANGELES - The estate of "Lord of the Rings" creator J.R.R. Tolkien is suing the film studio that released the trilogy based on his books, claiming the company failed to pay a cut of gross profits.

The writer's estate, a charity dubbed The Tolkien Trust, and original "Lord of the Rings" publisher HarperCollins filed the lawsuit against New Line Cinema on Monday in Los Angeles Superior Court.
It claims New Line was required to pay 7.5 percent of gross receipts from the films to Tolkien's estate and the other plaintiffs. The lawsuit estimates the films have reaped nearly $6 billion combined.




New Line can't get out of the firing line lately. There is also another lawsuit pending at present as well regarding LOTR and its profits ... though I doubt the Tolkien Estate are out of line on this ... they seem fairly confident when they go into these things ...

I seems to me that these suits are coming up prior to New Lines new 'management structure' - so there is something going on thats relevant, and seems as if people are moving now before New Line are cut up into pieces, sold, or dissolved ... at this rate, New Line will claim bankruptcy and fold, and nobody will be happy ... this news, makes me more nervous than Bob Shaye or Lynne being removed and any talk of Warner reconstructing New Line ...

If this case goes through, or bankruptcy is declared, things will change for the Hobbit ... and no, Im not seeing Disney here, I just think the timeline will be distrupted - and there may be a new logo opening the film ...

I wonder if a quick settlement would be better than to bandy around with these lawsuits ... though Im not suspecting this will happen, but this is another tyre on the Hobbit Rollercoaster that just fell off.

I hope there is some more news about this soon ...

Cheers
Elven


Amy Winehouse acquires Shire retreat for Summer ...


Amy Winehouse sells Shire retreat in Autumn ...


Tolkien was a Capricorn!
The Hobbit!!
Its a Happening Thing!!

Russell Crowe for Beorn

Sauruman: "Do know how the fan girls/boys first came into being? ... they were Tolkien scholars once ... Taken by the Dark Director, tempted to hold moots & dress up like Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves and Wizards ... A ruined & terrible form of life, not to mentions bad grades ... and now perfected at TORN ...
Whom do you serve!"


Elven
Valinor


Feb 11 2008, 9:20pm


Views: 19757
I have no doubt ...

That this figure is closer to the actual true figures! - give or take a million here and there ... I think Pete might have been short changed ... or alot of people may have been ... lets see if this starts an avalanche!

No wonder those New Line books and receipts were no where to be found ... a box full of papers ... phht! I have more reciepts for my cat food over 3 years than that! ... and just maybe Bob Shaye and Michael Lynne are 'going on holidays' for a better reason than retirement ...

This is just mind boggling!


Amy Winehouse acquires Shire retreat for Summer ...


Amy Winehouse sells Shire retreat in Autumn ...


Tolkien was a Capricorn!
The Hobbit!!
Its a Happening Thing!!

Russell Crowe for Beorn

Sauruman: "Do know how the fan girls/boys first came into being? ... they were Tolkien scholars once ... Taken by the Dark Director, tempted to hold moots & dress up like Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves and Wizards ... A ruined & terrible form of life, not to mentions bad grades ... and now perfected at TORN ...
Whom do you serve!"


Jazmine
Tol Eressea


Feb 11 2008, 9:27pm


Views: 19763
Timing

It mentioned in the article that the Tolkien Estate has attempted, unsuccessfully to deal with this previously. Now that New Line have finally got The Hobbit movie confirmed, it's a good time to force them into a corner. If they do indeed owe the Tolkien Estate royalties, giving them a "pay up or lose the rights to The Hobbit" ultimatum, may just force New Line's hand. To be honest, I don't think New Line can afford to lose The Hobbit. It's the only production they've got in the pipeline that could really save them. It does make you wonder how New Line has managed all these years, seeing how recent events have hardly shown them in the most flattering light!


*Jazminatar the Brown*


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 11 2008, 9:33pm


Views: 19758
Here are the replies to your Off Topic thread:

Jazmine
Where does this leave The Hobbit movie??
I'm getting that sinking feeling... this does not bode well for the movie!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
burrahobbit
That might be a showstopper...
What do you make of the timing? I mean if New Line haven't been paying up the Tolkien Estate could have filed this years ago. Have they been forced to do this because New Line might be folding? Or does the prospect of The Hobbit film give them leaverage to force the issue?
The lines "the plaintiffs have a right to terminate any further rights New Line may have to the Tolkien works under the agreements, including The Hobbit, due to the serious and material nature of the breach of the agreements" are pretty blunt.
There's a similar newsarticle on marketwire:
http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=819744


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jazmine
Timing:
Yes, I too questioned the timing. It mentioned in the article that the Tolkien Estate has attempted, unsuccessfully to deal with this previously. Now that New Line have finally got The Hobbit movie confirmed, it's a good time to force them into a corner. If they do indeed owe the Tolkien Estate royalties, giving them a "pay up or lose the rights to The Hobbit" ultimatum, may just force New Line's hand. To be honest, I don't think New Line can afford to lose The Hobbit. It's the only production they've got in the pipeline that could really save them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I'll head back to Off Topic now and delete the thread for you.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


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(This post was edited by Ataahua on Feb 11 2008, 9:34pm)


Altaira
Superuser


Feb 11 2008, 9:34pm


Views: 19717
Posted by burrahobbit:

What do you make of the timing? I mean if New Line haven't been paying up the Tolkien Estate could have filed this years ago. Have they been forced to do this because New Line might be folding? Or does the prospect of The Hobbit film give them leaverage to force the issue?

The lines "the plaintiffs have a right to terminate any further rights New Line may have to the Tolkien works under the agreements, including The Hobbit, due to the serious and material nature of the breach of the agreements" are pretty blunt.

There's a similar newsarticle on marketwire:

http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=819744


(cut & pasted from a similar thread, deleted by request)


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase



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Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 11 2008, 9:35pm


Views: 19673
*twig* /

 

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Elven
Valinor


Feb 11 2008, 9:46pm


Views: 19754
Bankruptcy ...

I just posted a huge post and the thread went ... arrrghhh!!


but I think if New Line has moved on the Hobbit so quickly, it might have been on demand of people wanting it, but that they needed to hold the rights to it before the lease ran out ... and have this already up and running before they were sued. Im sure there has been rumblings that they were aware that this was coming ...
Even though NL lease the rights to the film, presently no one else can have them, but with the lawsuit pending, they may declare themselves bankrupt instead of just paying this out and going through the motions.
Things are happening, and changes are being mentioned much too closely to the bone ...
Maybe the writers strike is not as critcally impacting, to do with the fact that there is little news thats concrete about the Hobbit ... its all 99%, like Del Toro Directing ... and seems very suspicious to me behind the scenes ... we'll never know exactly the motivation ... but here's where the timing will go awol for the schedule release dates ... Im wondering if there is more to come then ...


Amy Winehouse acquires Shire retreat for Summer ...


Amy Winehouse sells Shire retreat in Autumn ...


Tolkien was a Capricorn!
The Hobbit!!
Its a Happening Thing!!

Russell Crowe for Beorn

Sauruman: "Do know how the fan girls/boys first came into being? ... they were Tolkien scholars once ... Taken by the Dark Director, tempted to hold moots & dress up like Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves and Wizards ... A ruined & terrible form of life, not to mentions bad grades ... and now perfected at TORN ...
Whom do you serve!"


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Feb 11 2008, 10:01pm


Views: 19702
*furious nail biting and cursing*

AngelicMadAngelicdon't mess things up for me, you greedy ba$tards (on both sides of the suit). I am already scheduling my 2010 Istari galaWink and salivating over the PROSPECT of forthcoming plot news and set/costume pictures. MadSlyMadI will happily kick somebody's ( also to be read as anybodys as needed) a$$ if it looks like they are going to mess things up. The writer's guild arrow has been doged, I am already making threats to The actors Guild and Industry. . . now this crap. NO!FrownMadMadMadMadMadMad

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Tim
Tol Eressea


Feb 11 2008, 10:06pm


Views: 19705
*throws up hands*

I've about had it with New Line.

"Sir are you classified as human?"
"Negative! I am a meat popsicle!"


Altaira
Superuser


Feb 11 2008, 10:16pm


Views: 19683
Posted by One Ringer

They'll let New Line produce The Hobbit before giving them a tug on their leash. They need to realise that The Hobbit is going to be big, and will make a major impact on the box office. If they want to limit New Line, fine, but if they're smart, they'll let them make The Hobbit first.


(from deleted thread on movie)


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase



TORn Calendar


Donry
Tol Eressea


Feb 11 2008, 11:20pm


Views: 19620
I just like

seeing the studios finally getting called on a lot of this stuff. They've gotten away with it for too long. Or at least that's what I've been led to believe. No numbers or stats to back it up!

What's the matter, James? No glib remark? No pithy comeback?"


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 11 2008, 11:28pm


Views: 19749
This article says the Hobbit films could be affected:

According to AP the lawsuit seeks US$150 million in compensatory damages, unspecified punitive damages and a court order giving the Tolkien estate the right to terminate any rights New Line may have to make films based on other works by the author.
Given that plans are already in place to begin work on a two-film prequel based on Tolkien's The Hobbit, the lawsuit could prove disasterous for New Line, if successful.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/...mp;objectid=10491990

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 11 2008, 11:55pm


Views: 19635
*shakes head*

Tolkien Estate and Harper Collins, too? And they *never* got any money, though New Line made so much profit? Now I don't know if to laugh or cry - Shaye and Lynne seem to have outdone themselves in 'creative accounting' and now the bombs are exploding all over the place ... no wonder their books have vanished!

On the one hand, Shaye and Lynne certainly do deserve this new trouble, as they brought it to themselves. But now I am worried about the Hobbit movies. If I understand it correctly, Tolkien Estate and Harper Collins could take the rights for the Hobbit back!? I certainly hope they find a solution ... Frown

Am I the only one to wonder how many others New Line has betrayed, too?

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 11 2008, 11:58pm


Views: 19617
It's hard

for me to view New Line as the Ultimate Villain when they were the ones who saved the LOTR films from being a single movie and instead let PJ do them as a trilogy.

I haven't liked what I've heard around the brouhaha between PJ and New Line regarding the accounts, but we do have three pretty fine films to enjoy while all this wrangling is going on between the various parties.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


kareniel
Lorien

Feb 12 2008, 12:11am


Views: 19583
Well, so far

the road is not going "ever on and on" too smoothly, is it? I hate quarreling and squabbling - too much wasted energy and time. Come on, guys! We're getting cranky here! Mad


xxxyyy
Rohan

Feb 12 2008, 12:18am


Views: 19648
PJ to direct? I hope so...


In Reply To
According to AP the lawsuit seeks US$150 million in compensatory damages, unspecified punitive damages and a court order giving the Tolkien estate the right to terminate any rights New Line may have to make films based on other works by the author.
Given that plans are already in place to begin work on a two-film prequel based on Tolkien's The Hobbit, the lawsuit could prove disasterous for New Line, if successful.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/...mp;objectid=10491990


Well well... I foresee a delay... a delay that could bring PJ back to the director's seat.


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 12:21am


Views: 19585
Well, yes

They made three great movies possible, that's true, and had the sense to give PJ a lot of freedom. That's certainly something to be thankful for.

But I have to admit, I'm becoming increasingly irritated with all these sues. One, I could live with. But there's one after the other, and that's casting a bad light on New Line, in my opinion. I doubt they are completely innocent. There has to have gone something seriously wrong, otherwise there would surely not so many take action against them.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Tim
Tol Eressea


Feb 12 2008, 12:55am


Views: 19621
No benefit of the doubt for me

New Line lost their credibility with me when they stole from PJ & crew. They may be "innocent" but at this point they're going to have to prove it - to me, of course not in a court of law. If this delays The Hobbit I'm going to be pissed.

I have a very sexy learning disability.


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 12 2008, 12:58am


Views: 19650
The $6B is posturing

The Estate can't possibly have any idea how much New Line made, so they put a number in the lawsuit and negotiate from there.

Note that the Estate sued New Line, but New Line hedged almost all their overseas profits, and they partnered with other companies (Sideshow, United Cutlery, etc.) for much of the merchandise sales. While it's quite possible that $6B was made from the movies, it wasn't made by New Line.

If the Estate really wants all the money it thinks it's owed, they would have to go after all the companies that licensed with New Line. Of course, the language of the lawsuit is "gross", but as we've learned, "gross profits" has multiple meanings in the Hollywood accounting world.

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.


NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 12 2008, 1:04am


Views: 14809
That doesn't terminate Zaentz's rights

so I wonder what would happen if New Line's rights were terminated? They might not automatically revert to the Estate.......

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.


NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 12 2008, 1:12am


Views: 14685
Golly. That's a surprise

It would stand to reason that New Line would have treated other contractual agreements the same as they did the director's. It seems to have been common practice for them when they were smaller and could possibly play hide and seek with others. But once they had this HUGE success and started dealing with people who expect them to make good their promise; well, you reap what you sow.

I'm just hoping beyond hope they've learned their lesson and just play nice.

What a mess.




sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


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Curious
Half-elven


Feb 12 2008, 1:18am


Views: 14730
I don't see how this would stop The Hobbit.

That seems like an empty threat to me. Any contractual disputes can be remedied with money damages, so how can proceeding with The Hobbit do the Tolkien Estate any harm?


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 12 2008, 1:37am


Views: 14690
Good point! /

 

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 12 2008, 1:46am


Views: 14637
Weellll

I don't think Tolkien Enterprise (Zaents' little shindig) sold the rights to make the Hobbit/LOTR directly *to* NL, and just "lent" it to them, or something like that. So if NL does go down the drain, wouldn't those rights just go back to Zaents, rather than the Estate?

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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 12 2008, 1:49am


Views: 14654
Not an Ultimate Villian...

But like, Saruman. You know, once good and fair, but then got too greedy for power and dug his own grave?

Yea. NL is my Saruman. *nods* Though I wonder... does that make Warner Bros Sauron? ;P

My LJ
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 12 2008, 2:07am


Views: 14755
No Worries

Elven writes:

'They (The Tolkien Estate) seems fairly confident when they go into these things'

These things?
How many lawsuits are they involved in?

As I said when folks were freaking out over PJ & New Line's fight, "Money talks & BS walks"......

In other words, there's just too much $$$$ to be made in a Hobbit movie for either side to pull the plug, so rest easy.

If the report that The Tolkien Estate is owed 7.5% of $6 Billion is correct, then they should be looking for $450 Million, not $150 Million, so obviously not both reports are completely accurate.......


Altaira
Superuser


Feb 12 2008, 2:16am


Views: 14703
That was my first thought when I read that

As I understand it, the rights to make The Hobbit would have reverted back to Zaentz had New Line let their option expire. And, didn't Zaentz say if and when he gets the rights back he'd go with PJ all the way? It would be a delay for sure, but it certainly wouldn't preclude it being made.

I'd love to know how much say the Tolkien Estate has (or doesn't have) in the making of The Hobbit, since the rights were origianlly sold to Zaentz. Perhaps there's some clause that would halt or delay production if there were any ongoing monetary or legal disputes.

The plot most definitely thickens! Laugh


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase



TORn Calendar


ArathornJax
Lorien


Feb 12 2008, 2:25am


Views: 14712
As reported on the OneRing.Net

http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2006/11/23/24050-saul-zaentz-on-the-hobbit-2/

What is with the long anticipated Hobbit-adaption?

A: It will definitely be shot by Peter Jackson. The question is only when. He wants to shoot another movie first. Next year the Hobbit-rights will fall back to my company. I suppose that Peter will wait because he knows that he will make the best deal with us. And he is fed up with the studios: to get his profit share on the rings trilogy he had to sue New Line. With us in contrast he knows that he will be paid fairly and artistically supported without reservation.

I don't think that the Estate will get back the movie rights as I believe it is what they are after (along with some return from the movies). Zaentz owns the rights and will fight for it. Wouldn't that be a scene, in this corner Christopher R. Tolkien and in this corner Saul Zaentz. This fight is scheduled for 2 rounds at twenty seconds each due to the advance age of both participants. . .

Let us then be up and doing
With a heart for any fate;
Still achieving, still pursuing,
Learn to labor and to wait.

H.W. Longfellow




Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor


Feb 12 2008, 2:30am


Views: 14636
That Was My Thought As Well


In Reply To
That seems like an empty threat to me. Any contractual disputes can be remedied with money damages, so how can proceeding with The Hobbit do the Tolkien Estate any harm?



I am really having a hard time figuring out upon what basis they are asking for that kind of injunctive relief. Unfortunately the only way to find out would be to look at the Complaint, and the Los Angeles Superior Court apparently charges to view recently filed documents (and I don't want to know that badly). Hopefully someone will post a copy of the Complaint somewhere.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 12 2008, 2:32am


Views: 14672
It DOES make a great cartoon!

I blame you for this, diedye. Wasted a whole 20 minutes of my life ;)

BS = Bob Shaye
ML = Michael Lynne



My LJ
My art site
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Altaira
Superuser


Feb 12 2008, 2:35am


Views: 14680
Thanks for digging that up, AJ!

Oh to be a fly on the wall during any conversations between Zaentz and the Tolkien Estate right about now, huh?

It will be interesting to see what, if any, legs the Tolkien Estate has to stand on to back up that kind of threat.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase



TORn Calendar


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 12 2008, 3:34am


Views: 14682
Meaningless....

It's all so pointless....

The Hobbit will be made - remember last year when there was never going to be a Hobbit film because PJ & New Line were at each other's throats?

Tolkien's Family doesn't even own the rights to the movie & hasn't since the 70's.


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 5:14am


Views: 14655
ROFL! On second thought, I mean....Zeantz?

I don't know whether to laugh, cry, throw up my hands, curse ALL PARTIES out, scream, stock up the popcorn, or keep my fingernails permanently cut to the bone so I won't be able to bite them anymore.

Leave it to you, ArathornJax, to put a humorous face on what is to me a situation growing uglier by the day.

Yes, that was my first ugly thought.....Christopher T. rubbing his hands in glee, saying, "NOW I finally have the way to keep my father's works from being further desecrated!" He still hates the fact that LOTR was ever made put on film. And now he figures that God has given him a way to stop the "blasphemers" in their tracks. Payback, as it were.

I hope Adam Tolkien does not have the same close-mindedness. I hope his father has not successfully "indoctrinated" him. You know, they're his family, and I respect them, and yes, these ARE Tolkien's stories and it IS their decision to do what they please. We are incredibly lucky to have the LOTR films, IMO.

But this "holier than thou" attitude can only go so far. I HOPE the attitude here is not, "Well, we can kill two birds with one stone. Once we get our $150 million or whatever it is, that'll be enough money to keep The Estate in shop for a pretty long while, so that we won';t NEED any income from further film adaptations in a decade or generation or so." That may be true, for now, but it's a very narrow-minded view of the world. Certainly more narrow-minded than Tolkien himself had or would have had today.
In this post-literary age, there is no guarantee that a generation or 50 yrs from now a bored and fickle public (who DO NOT read for leisure) would keep enough books flying out of stores to sustain a large income forever. And if they think that they can put a kibosh on future adaptations, that would be an EXTREMELY unwise move.
Most successful novels get adapted into films sooner or later. Heck, make that ALL. Starting with every 19th-century classic ever written. It would be STUPID of them to think that they are so special, that they can avoid this fate. Is Tolkien greater than Dickens? Or Victor Hugo? Or Lewis Carroll or any other Literary Great? Or Joyce, Hemingway, Adlous Huxley or George Orwell? All those great books have been adapted to film. And all the better for the books! And IMO, they should consider themselves DARNED LUCKY that their adaptations have been so great, faithful to the spirit, if not the letter, of the books...., and that artistically, things look just as good for The Hobbit. For many, even better this time around. WHY can't he get it through his head that there are those of us who love his father's works ALL THE MORE for having had such great film adaptations?

They seem to think they can win this lawsuit, b/c it's like the vultures picking over the carcass of a dying animal at this point. NL is Persona Non Grata these days. And the other suits have been pretty successful. They seem confident that they'll get back the rights. But what if NL goes bankrupt, the company is dissolved, Zaentz is still alive and kicking, and he tunrs the rights over to Warner's to avoid having the Tolkien Estate get them?

I think a modest income, yes, but after reading this, Methinks even Christopher has been lured by the power of the R...I mean, the Silmaril...I mean, ...well, they sure DO care about money now. Peculiar, ain't it?

A question: If Zaentz passes away before all this is settled, does "his estate" keep the rights? Does he have an heir designated? Or with his death, would the rights revert back to the Estate? It;s my one great fear. And if they succeed, I hope the elder generation realizes that there are those in the family who approve very much of the films, not just b/c of their artistic merit, but how much they have raised the Estate's profile..and, oh yes, that little word.....profits. I'd hate to see a split develop in the family in any way.

I hope Kristen Thompson is taking notes....at this rate, we could be writing a novel about the pre-production!


ArathornJax
Lorien


Feb 12 2008, 5:21am


Views: 14664
Money talks . . .

Money talks and in the end, I will be that Time Warner settles with the Tolkien Estate. As far as rights to the movie, that won't happen as they are owned by Saul Zaentz through his company Tolkien Enterprises.

J.R.R. wrote to his son Christopher about making movies in Sept. 1957 that " In a letter Tolkien wrote to his son Christopher in September 1957, he said he had been approached by several people to make a movie based on The Lord of the Rings. " Stanley U(nwin) and I have agreed on our policy: Art or Cash," he said."

As the movie never materialized, Tolkien sold the movie rights to United Artists in the 1960's for $10,000 I believe to pay off a tax debt. Eventually Saul Zaentz purchased the movie rights in the 1970's from MGM and has had them ever since. Zaentz has a deal with New Line and MGM for a specific period of time and when that time runs out, based on his comments that I posted earlier, it looks like the rights to the movie revert back to Saul Zaentz.

The legal point here is that J.R.R. Tolkien sold the rights back in 1966 (might be 1969, but 1966 sounds right to me). As such Saul Zaentz holds the rights and has paid for them legally. As such if the estate has an issue with profits, that issue is with the distributor of the LOTR films, which is New Line. Are they owed money? I don't know without seeing the document, and as has been mentioned, I'm not paying to see it (the wife will kill me). Do I think they are owed money? Probably. Will it get paid? Yep, and quick. Time Warner is going to do some merging with New Line and absorb some of their films (and I would guess they will do this with The Hobbit and the sequel) and I will be in 6 months to a year you'll see a settlement. Will that stop production. It may delay it, but I don't think it will stop it. It could mean though that Del Torro is not available or that PJ becomes available. I do think this is the death toll for Shaye and company at New Line though.

Bottom line is money talks in our society and in our world, even with the estate, or why the law suit(to some point; the estate has really tried to preserve the artistic legacy of their father/grandfather)? J.R.R. took the "cash" over "art" and the estate has earned millions off the trilogy PJ put out in new book sales and by bringing in new fans to the base (a good conversation would be would The Children of Hurin 1. have been published without the resurgence from PJ's movies and 2. even if it was published would it have sold as well without the trilogy?). The estate will get a legal settlement (and more money), the two movies will eventually be made, and everyone will move on to the next project with more money in either their corporate pockets or in the estate's pockets.

As far as Zaentz goes (he turns 87 on the 28th of this very month) I don't know his will but I would assume that when J.R.R. sold to pay his tax debt, he sold the rights forever. So whoever is in line to be Zaentz's heir, will receive those rights. If it is an individual, his family or a corporation that is not known as far as I have been able to find. I would assume, it would go to one of his heirs, but I haven't found if he even has a family.


Let us then be up and doing
With a heart for any fate;
Still achieving, still pursuing,
Learn to labor and to wait.

H.W. Longfellow




(This post was edited by ArathornJax on Feb 12 2008, 5:30am)


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 5:24am


Views: 14602
PS.

On Pg. 21 of "The Frodo Franchise", Kristen Thompson has a detailed chart of LOTR's cinematic origions. I'm wondering what the Hobbit's chart will look like! Probably like the geneology of the Numenorean Kings in the parody "Bored Of The Rings"...

I think I may have to start keeping a chart....


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 5:38am


Views: 14639
That's a HUGE "eventually."

Sure, when Christopher Lee is gone (and even if Del Toro were announced tomorrow and casting begun, that is my great fear--the 2nd film will be eviscerated without him) , when Del Toro has been forced to move on to other things, when Ian McKellan is approaching the current age of Lee, ditto Howard Shore--he is at the peak of his powers now; there' s no guarantee that may last-- and PJ's schedule makes it impossible to shoot until 2014.

I'm a pretty patient person, we fans have all been patient, but with the artistic stars aligning up so perfectly now, we are in a period where the constellations may not ever be so right again.


My patience is starting to really crack, and I fear that even Gramma's mail-shirt of Optimism may have to be newly forged with mithril, to get us through this.


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Feb 12 2008, 5:39am)


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 5:43am


Views: 14610
Who would Morgoth be then?:)

 


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 5:46am


Views: 14710
I hope "The Tolkien Estate" *cough* understands this fact....

That at this point, if they think they can keep the films from being made, a LOT of fans worldwide would be P.O', too....even those who respect them....


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 6:09am


Views: 14594
Ah yes

Completely forgot that Zaentz holds the rights and that they'd revert back to him if NL doesn't make the movies very soon. Yes, he didn't sell them forever, only for a certain time. Serves me right for posting in the wee hours of the morning - I woke up in the middle of the night and couldn't go back to sleep, so I went to my laptop. But 1:00 am or so isn't my best time for logical thinking Wink

Anyway, that seems to weaken the claim of Tolkien Estate. Hm ... I'm not sure what to think just now, but one thing is clear - this will be quite an exciting time. My only fear is that this new complication will delay filming so much that Ian McKellen and Christopher Lee aren't able to resume their roles. They don't get any younger, after all.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 12 2008, 7:11am


Views: 14584
I'm just hoping

That both are very, very healthy- I don't want a Dumbledore for either of them.

And, of course, I don't want them to die because they are wickedly cool people. *nod*

Though honestly, I don't mind them pushing the date back for the Hobbit release for a couple more years. More of a chance for me to save up the money needed for a trip to NZ during the premiere ;)

My LJ
My art site
Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Feb 12 2008, 7:35am


Views: 14593
The idea of the date being pushed back is terifying to me

For we who have waited long with a desperate desire. . . this is a horrid cloud. But I hold out hope. TW stands to make an easy 1 to two billion, more probably, when inflation is considered, so I think they will settle up that 150 and quick. If it means getting the films made on track, I would be happy to support an online campaign for fans, internationally, to donate small amounts to SEND to WB to help cover the fees. WHatever, just make the movies, and get them right!

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 7:53am


Views: 14584
It's a quandary, isn't it?

If not for Ian and Christopher, I could wait, too. Better a bit longer and the perfect movie than a rushed one with too much mistakes. But I can't imagine Gandalf and Saruman played by other actors; they were both perfect, and it would not be the same. We'll have to wish for them at least Dumbledore's age, if not movie-Dumbledore's fate Wink

Though I can so understand why you wouldn't mind a bit of delay. It would be great to be in NZ in this time, and I wish you the best of luck for that!

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 7:56am


Views: 14582
No!

Why should we donate money for a company who's making billions with the Harry Potter movies and merchandise? They man now try to cut off some not so profitable parts of their imperium, but that doesn't mean that they are wallowing in poverty, believe me.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Feb 12 2008, 8:46am


Views: 14600
It's their leverage.


In Reply To
That seems like an empty threat to me. Any contractual disputes can be remedied with money damages, so how can proceeding with The Hobbit do the Tolkien Estate any harm?


If NL is generally blowing them off, the threat to prevent a $1B project from happening would be a powerful weapon for the Estate, and maybe the only way to prevent NL from dragging things out for the next 20 years. Once The Hobbit is released, the Estate has no weapons any more (except law courts, which can be delayed indefinitely, and even a judgement can be avoided by bankruptcy).




Whew, that was fun.


Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


Curious
Half-elven


Feb 12 2008, 9:06am


Views: 14960
It's not powerful if there's no ammo.


Quote
If NL is generally blowing them off, the threat to prevent a $1B project from happening would be a powerful weapon for the Estate ...


Actually, any attempt to halt filming on The Hobbit should be decided pretty quickly, so we will find out quickly if the threat is empty. And there's always the threat Jackson used so well -- the threat to force New Line to open their books, and perhaps the books of parent Time-Warner as well.



grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 12 2008, 9:55am


Views: 14984
And that... as they say... is that. Sweet Saul //

 




sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


Elven
Valinor


Feb 12 2008, 10:56am


Views: 14964
They might get their wish ...

The biggest gripe I think the Tolkien estate have is that they have already been blocked from getting audits of the 'last two films' ... so they have tried previously to do this ... and now that the Hobbit has been announced, I think there was really a no win situation for New Line - they were damned if they do, damned if they dont go ahead with the Hobbit ... because either way, the Tolkien estate were owed money from the last films and they have a pretty big draw card in their agreement for the next films, which would see NL needing to make some decisions pretty fast.

It would be very interesting to see if those books will ever open, and more suprising (actually I'd eat my hat) if anything they delivered was even a close estimate to the actual figures. Those true figures are long gone, and the way they have acted in response to many of the requests doesn't imply a company of integrity with professional conduct or standards ... it would be interesting though, if some of this has come about becasue of estimatations of New Lines value and worth, especially if they were thinking of selling it ... more interesting still, and yet quite sickening, if the books were opened to reveal that PJ's settlement was a rip off too ..

NL are dealing with an Estate which knows what they are doing, and I still dont get the idea that this is a bluff, I think its quite serious this time around.


Amy Winehouse acquires Shire retreat for Summer ...


Amy Winehouse sells Shire retreat in Autumn ...


Tolkien was a Capricorn!
The Hobbit!!
Its a Happening Thing!!

Russell Crowe for Beorn

Sauruman: "Do know how the fan girls/boys first came into being? ... they were Tolkien scholars once ... Taken by the Dark Director, tempted to hold moots & dress up like Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves and Wizards ... A ruined & terrible form of life, not to mentions bad grades ... and now perfected at TORN ...
Whom do you serve!"


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 11:20am


Views: 14957
*Gets out bullhorn*

"Calling Bucky Underbelly!"

It seems we REALLY need his thoughts on this now......every time some great big business issue comes up, any commentary by our resident industry expert is welcome:)

(ya know, if he started charging quarters for his industry nuggets of wisdom, I wouldn't mind dropping a couple in his hat) TongueCool


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Feb 12 2008, 11:21am)


Elven
Valinor


Feb 12 2008, 11:50am


Views: 15001
How one word makes all the difference ...

so Im reading an article on the Tolkien Estate New Line saga ...

This media report (to me and the way Im interpreting it) makes me think that the Tolkien estate in their case against New Line are trying to stop New Line going ahead with the Hobbit - not just a maybe ... or have the right to, but its part of the lawsuit ...

How do you read it ...

http://www.abc.net.au/...ection=entertainment


Quote


Lawyers are seeking $US150 million in compensatory damages, punitive damages and the right to strip New Line of its right to make any further films based on Tolkien's work, including the The Hobbit.




and I reckon they will win the rights.

(A not very cheery)
Elven


Amy Winehouse acquires Shire retreat for Summer ...


Amy Winehouse sells Shire retreat in Autumn ...


Tolkien was a Capricorn!
The Hobbit!!
Its a Happening Thing!!

Russell Crowe for Beorn

Sauruman: "Do know how the fan girls/boys first came into being? ... they were Tolkien scholars once ... Taken by the Dark Director, tempted to hold moots & dress up like Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves and Wizards ... A ruined & terrible form of life, not to mentions bad grades ... and now perfected at TORN ...
Whom do you serve!"


fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 12 2008, 12:04pm


Views: 14992
Film Rights

Actually, the rights will eventually revert to Tolkien's estate. See the following link: http://www.copylaw.com/new_articles/copyterm.html

Copyrights are not sold, they are rather assigned/lent by the Author to someone else. They do not exist in perpetuity.


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 12:11pm


Views: 14953
Hm ...

At the first look, it sounds as if that's their purpose. But where's Saul Zaentz in this matter? Thinking a bit further - it's expressed that *New Line* shouldn't be allowed to make the movies, but it isn't said that there has to be *no movie* at all. This new lawsuit could delay the movie long enough for the NL rights to expire anyway. Or the end of NL is quickened and PJ will have to do it with Warner ... *clutches to straw*

But I am worried, that much I have to admit Frown

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Elven
Valinor


Feb 12 2008, 12:18pm


Views: 14953
Bloomberg reports the same ...

thing ...


http://www.bloomberg.com/...&refer=australia
Extract from the article by Edvard Pettersson in Los Angeles


Quote

They claim in the suit that New Line has included among the production costs the share of the movies' profits it paid to Miramax. The plaintiffs also claim that New Line bases their share of DVD sales on only 20 percent of the actual sales.

Time Warner rose 4 cents to $15.63 in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. The stock has dropped 5.3 percent this year.

The case is Christopher Reuel Tolkien v. New Line Cinema Corp., BC385294, Los Angeles County Superior Court.




I didnt think the Miramax payout was that much??!!


Amy Winehouse acquires Shire retreat for Summer ...


Amy Winehouse sells Shire retreat in Autumn ...


Tolkien was a Capricorn!
The Hobbit!!
Its a Happening Thing!!

Russell Crowe for Beorn

Sauruman: "Do know how the fan girls/boys first came into being? ... they were Tolkien scholars once ... Taken by the Dark Director, tempted to hold moots & dress up like Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves and Wizards ... A ruined & terrible form of life, not to mentions bad grades ... and now perfected at TORN ...
Whom do you serve!"


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 12:21pm


Views: 14972
Hm ... interesting

The question is, are we talking about the 28 or 56 years? The latter one is a few years away yet. And the former would have been long ago - why didn't they act at once? It's said there having to "live" with a bad deal, and properly paid, the Estate must make a lot of money. The movies have reawakened the interest in the books, anyway, so even without the money from NL they got a lot from this deal. And if NL would pay them what's their due, then they couldn't insist on this - that's no bad deal at all. At least that's my first impression about this.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 12:25pm


Views: 14932
*shakes head*

It's getting more and more confusing - as usual when lawyers are involved *sigh*
I fear we will have to wait a bit for more information before knowing for sure what that is meaning Frown

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 12 2008, 12:45pm


Views: 14941
Lawsuit

I have been looking into this for the past hour now and from what I have gleaned, it would seem that the deal signed by Tolkien which assigned the rights to make films based upon the LOTR trilogy and The Hobbit included a requirement that Tolkien (now his estate) receive 7.5% of the gross profits from any films made. It could be and likely will be argued that New Line, by failing to pay up, has violated terms of the agreement and thus are in breach. I would assume that this is the basis upon which the estate and Harper Collins are sueing. It is possible that such breach could result in both monetary damages AND loss of the rights to make films based upon Tolkien's works.

The ownership could revert to the Tolkien estate or to Zaentz. Not sure how this one will turn out without more information but it is possible that Tolkien's estate could recover their film rights. The question here is does New Line's breach of contract also constitute a breach of contract by Zaentz against the estate? I would think that argument actually might carry some weight. Should that happen the movie will not likely be made for a long time as Tolkien's son Christopher has long held the view that film was not an effective medium for his father's material and zealously protected the integrity of his father's works.


Curious
Half-elven


Feb 12 2008, 1:20pm


Views: 14963
Sure, the suit is serious. But

I don't see how filming The Hobbit harms the Tolkien Estate in a way that can't ultimately be remedied with money.


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 1:21pm


Views: 14940
See my "....Zaentz" post above.

Now that the lawsuit is formally named, not "The Tolkien Estate" or "Descendants Of" or anything like that, but good ol' Christopher T. vs New Line, my suspicions are confirmed.

My sentiments from my previous post remain intact.

Would it be too soon to start flooding them with (polite) letters?

Only half j/k at this point....Crazy


fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 12 2008, 1:33pm


Views: 14941
Actually

Actually there are several members of the tolkien family listed in addition to harper collins.


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 1:39pm


Views: 14999
A long time? Make that NEVER.

See my "Zaentz" post above.

With his name on it, it all comes together now. Curious, this isn't about money for Christopher T. This is about his still-seething anger that LOTR was desecrated, and he is in this mostly for the means to prevent further defiling of his father's work. He's like a Crusader marching on Jerusalem at this point.
Hate to say it, but if this is the case I only hope there's split in the family, like the split in the family that (reportedly) allowed the Wall Street Journal to go to Citizen Murdoch. An ugly thought, but there you go.

I just hope he knows how bitter, angry, and heartbroken he will make many,many millions of fans of his father's works around the world, if he persists in his desire to kill the films. Knowledge that the films were coming is the only bright spot in a world full of darkness right now, and getting darker every day. WHY can't he understand that these films mean so much to people, and make us love the books all the more?

Does anyone find it suspicious that if this really WAS triggered by the news that NL was going to be dissolved, he could have filed the suit last week or 2 weeks ago? NL news has been around a few days now. But NO, he waits until the very DAY that we have irrefutable proof that the writer's strike was finally over, and an official green-lighting of the project, a christening with a director's announcement, which could have come within 2 weeks....


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Feb 12 2008, 1:43pm)


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 1:47pm


Views: 14939
Yes, but why does it have the title it is listed with?

They may be listed, but the title of the suit is not "Tje Tolkien Trust", it's "Christopher Rauel T vs"


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 12 2008, 1:56pm


Views: 14999
You're wrong about Christopher Tolkien

He has never said anything about the movies that Peter Jackson made. I don't think it's fair to attribute so much venom to him.

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.


NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 12 2008, 2:01pm


Views: 14947
Plaintiffs

You need to look up the actual court case. Chirstopher Tolkien et al vs. New Line Cinema Corp. Listed plaintiffs against New Line include (listed in order):
GEORGE ALLEN & UNWIN (PUBLISHERS) LTD. - Plaintiff/Petitioner
HARPERCOLLINS PUBLISHERS LTD. - Plaintiff/Petitioner
POULTER ALAN GRAHAM - Plaintiff/Petitioner
TOLKIEN BAILLIE JEAN - Plaintiff/Petitioner
TOLKIEN CHRISTOPHER REUEL - Plaintiff/Petitioner
TOLKIEN JOAN ANNE REUEL - Plaintiff/Petitioner
TOLKIEN MICHAEL GEORGE REUEL - Plaintiff/Petitioner
TOLKIEN PRISCILLA MARY ANNE REUEL - Plaintiff/Petitioner
TOLKIEN SIMON MARIO REUEL - Plaintiff/Petitioner
UNWIN HYMAN LTD. - Plaintiff/Petitioner

I must say I am more than a bit taken aback by your stance against Christopher Tolkien attempting to regain what was essentially stolen from his family back in the late 1960's. It was bought for a song and not sold willingly. I have always been a firm supporter of artists being able to retain the copyrights for their created works. So many film, recording and publishing companies have taken advantage of artists over the years leaving them destitute while these companies reaped tremendous profits. Christopher Tolkien has been a god-send to all of his late father's fans by publishing so many of his father's works posthumously that I would think as a fan of Tolkien he deserves your support, not your vehemence.

Would I like to see a movie of the Hobbit made someday? Yes I would. But I would like to see it made with the blessing and cooperation of Tolkien's heirs rather than with none of their input and over their objections.


orcbane
Gondor


Feb 12 2008, 2:45pm


Views: 14920
Selling Ronald

The backstory to this is fascinating in a way, but I am tempted to say 'morbidly'. Others have already hinted at or mentioned the idea of a story being made out of this legal/monetary wrangling over the remaining writings of JRRT. But who would own the rights to such a story ? Maybe it could be a fantasy and include Ronald coming back to life at some point and hitting the talk-show rounds. Maybe he could bring some other famous lawyers with him from the other side. Perhaps Honest Abe and Gu Fang Ho (Gengis Khan's top legal advisor).

The Lotr films were such a delight in how they surprised me & turned out so well. And they had a quaintly pleasing element in how the makers, crew and cast all worked together so well.

What a change in the environment the success has brought. What a farce it is.

I tend to blame PJ ultimately. It was that scene with Legolas skateboarding down the steps at Helm's Deep. It was the queer moment I believe, that all the susequent queerness comes from. But he did not do it maliciously. Just one step to far. Too bad!

WinkLaugh

An Ent juggling spikey things ?


deej
Tol Eressea


Feb 12 2008, 3:13pm


Views: 14916
My 2 cents

The cast has sued New Line to get their fair share from merchandise and dvd sales; PJ has sued them because they wouldn't open their books. Now the Tolkien estate is suing. So either the studio has some REALLY bad accountants working for them, or they are greedy b*****ds. I'm leaning toward the latter answer.



(This post was edited by deej on Feb 12 2008, 3:14pm)


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 3:57pm


Views: 14907
And Saul Zaentz, too

Just looked it up at Wikipedia - there they say what I seem to remember - Zaentz sued New Line, too, about his share in profits. And wasn't there the news some time ago here on TORn that some of the minor actors were suing, too, about their share on action figures or something along this line? With all respect to their initial merits in making the movies possible, all these lawsuits are making New Line look pretty suspect, IMO.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 12 2008, 4:02pm


Views: 14940
Only Bright Spot?

In a world full of darkness?

Well come on now, this is just a fantasy movie, that's all........ I earestly pray it won't really be the case in any of our lives - there's so much else beyond Middle-Earth out there, & I've been studying Tolkien's works longer than some of you have been alive (not a haughty statement, just a fact).

The person who posted about Tolkien selling the rights for $10,000 in the 60's was spot-on. 'Cash' was JRRT's motive.
It's a riot reading Tolkien's Letter # 210 on that cartoon movie that was planned as he tears apart every change that the writer made from the book. One can imagine his commentary on Peter Jackson:

'The Balrog, to begin with, was not 25 to 30 feet tall, but, like Sauron, of Man size but greater. Secondly, 'J' seems to have somehow gotten the idea that a creature that was entombed in rock for nearly 55 centuries before being dug out by the Dwarves in their search for Mithril has suddenly developed the ability to break through stone at will.'

If you think I'm exagerating, read the Letter, it's quite entertaining. Cool

Tolkien, in fact, takes a rather negative view on any chages in his work, from translations that change slight wordings, to pictures on the cover that don't make sense to commentaries about him & his work that are inaccurate & feels the need to say so at all times.
It appears his son Christopher has inherited this trait. And while I enjoyed TLOR films & eagerly await The Hobbit movie (plural, though I don't really get why 2 films are needed except the big $$$ reason), the fact is that PJ did take serious liberties with the 'essence' of many characters in TLOR & I can see how this upset many 'purists' & CT in particular.As
i've been through those various specifics before, I won't bother now, but, PJ may be reaping what he has sown, plain & simple . Had he kept the character's personalities truer to the book, perhaps there'd be no problems now.
However, maybe it is all just money.

Finally, though I'd like to see Ian & Christopher return, i think in time we'd get used to another actor in place. Look at Dumbledore, although 'Harry Potter' is poor fare compared to Tolkien's work........


deej
Tol Eressea


Feb 12 2008, 4:09pm


Views: 14933
I think I may sue New Line as well.

Just because. Cool



Annael
Immortal


Feb 12 2008, 4:09pm


Views: 14916
I know!

We loved Bob Shaye back in the day for being the one who said "clearly there should be three films, not two."


.We do not see things as they are, we see them as we are.
- Anais Nin
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 4:10pm


Views: 14893
LOL

Yes, for depriving us of the Hobbit Angelic

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Annael
Immortal


Feb 12 2008, 4:10pm


Views: 14699
oh, great footer!

Cool


.We do not see things as they are, we see them as we are.
- Anais Nin
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 4:15pm


Views: 14717
Come on

What have changes PJ made to the movies to do with New Line's bad habit of not paying people the share of profit they're entitled to? If we don't get any Hobbit film, then you can thank NL and not Peter. Remember, the lawsuit is not about changing the story, but about money New Line owns the Tolkien Estate!

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 12 2008, 4:29pm


Views: 14702
Actually

Well actually it may be about some of the changes PJ made to the story. Christopher Tolkien has religiously guarded his father's creations and the lack of creative control over his father's stories being adapted to film may in fact play much more of a role in this suit than the money. I highly doubt the Tolkien family is hurting for cash as they have the best selling books of the 20th century providing them with royalties. They don't really need the money from the films.


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 4:37pm


Views: 14708
Well

In this case they'd not need to sue about so much money. I can understand that they don't want NL to make even more money after not paying them for so long - that's reason enough. The amount NL owns them is nothing to sneeze at.

And even CT should be aware that you can't put a book into a movie 1:1. So the part with the rights may be a side effect, but I can't believe it to be the main reason.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 4:42pm


Views: 14697
PS

If the only purpose was to get the rights back, why would CT have waited for years? The LotR movies have been out for years, after all. He could have done it much earlier.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 12 2008, 4:45pm


Views: 14703
Exactly...

Did you read all the posts before mine?

I did & must agree that the timing of the lawsuit with the end of the screenwriter's strike & New Line's precarious finacial position, where a delay could sink the project, et all sure seems to cast an intersting light on whether this is about simple money or protecting the 'artistic integrity' of Tolkien's work, which both JRRT & CT have been so well documented & vocal about.

The fact also remains:

The Tolkien Estate supposedly is entitled to 7.5% of $600 Billion, right?
That's $450 million.
So, why are they suing for $150 million?
Makes no sense........


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 4:51pm


Views: 14683
Well

When you were right, then the whole lawsuit would be in my opinion a big deception and my opinion of CT would sink considerably.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 12 2008, 4:54pm


Views: 14699
Motives

I still believe his motives were about getting back artistic control more than money. As to why he waited, he needed an opportunity. New Line committing breach gave him the opportunity he wanted and he took it. Again, this is simply speculation. I do wish to reiterate that CT has done more than any other author's son or daughter to deliver new content for fans of a deceased author's works. We should be supporting him rather than getting down on him. He and his family should have control over his father's work. Were it not for his father we would not have this wonderful tale that means so much to all of us. I am a bit disgusted by the negativity I have seen directed towards him (CT) on this board.


(This post was edited by fryguy34167 on Feb 12 2008, 5:03pm)


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 5:00pm


Views: 14701
Well

To sue New Line to keep PJ or someone other from making another movie - no, that wouldn't be my way. And he may have done a lot for the fans, but not everyone is much into Silmarillion and Children of Hurin, while the Hobbit is much more loved. Now he's going to disappoint millions of fans. That evens the score more than enough.

Okay, we'll have to agree to disagree - I don't want to get into an argument about that. Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinions.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 12 2008, 5:09pm


Views: 14721
Its all good

I am fine with our disagreeing about the effect of the outcome of the legal action and its worth. One thing I must say though is that Tolkien's family deserves our understanding if not our support. I know you have been a big fan of the films and I feel your pain as to the delay of getting more of what you want. I just do not feel that you are justified in taking out your disappointment solely on Christopher Tolkien.


Voorhas
Lorien


Feb 12 2008, 5:21pm


Views: 14703
Excellent Points...

...I know that Zaentz used to operate under the name "Tolkien Enterprises," so I'm assuming the rights are held by a corporation.

"They who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night." -- E.A. Poe


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 12 2008, 5:53pm


Views: 14764
Quicksand

Fryguy:

Be warned that you are on dangerous ground around here if you say anything bad about Peter Jackson or his movies.....

It almost seems at times that PJ is put on as high a pedistal as JRR Tolkien himself.

Tolkien spent 55 years of his life creating Middle-Earth; Christopher Tolkien made the maps for his father & spent 30 years collecting & editing the mess of papers his father left upon his death in 1972.
Now, let us keep in perspective that Peter Jackson made one very long movie cut into 3 parts that was based on someone else's finished work, however much you like it.


fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 12 2008, 6:03pm


Views: 14684
nice

haha, point taken. nice to see at least someone else here shares my point of view.


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 7:15pm


Views: 14640
Well, okay.....

Well, that was a bit of an exaggeration. It was VERY late last night and when I'm tired I go for the metaphors. I'm a bit embarrassed at what I wrote last night.

I was just thinking in terms of the national and world headlines and how for some people, like me, knowledge that these films were going forward, that there was finally some concrete news, was going to be a welcome distraction from all of that.When we came on this site every day. And besides, for me, it wouldn''t be the only existential "bright spot". That would include a U2 album and tour next year!

As for Christopher Tolkien...I TRIED to make it very clear in my posts above that I DON'T hate him. (While I've said very equivocally that I hate Bob Shaye.) I guess I was just reacting in frustration at this news,. Just as we were FINALLY, after so many months, going to get the ball rolling, the suit throws a MASSIVE monkey wrench in the works. I didn't care much about The Hobbit last year, to tell you the truth....I really didn't start to care for it until this fall. I thought I was patient, but the patience is starting to crack.

And yes, I appreciate what a treasure we have in the films, etc etc, ad nauseum. But the TIMING of this is really eating my craw. He's had 4 yrs to sue, and I will not deny that this has my suspicions up. I DON'T hate him. I'm just shocked and sad. Throwing back the production at even 6 months at this point might mean the end for Del Toro on this project (and PJ like he said would not be able to direct for yrs), and the possible death of Christopher Lee too early. After 85, you slow down REALLY FAST from what I have read. And for Harry Potter fans, ..who was it who said we don;t want a Dumbledore situation ruining this?

As I said in my post above, yes, these are his father's works etc etc, but if he didn't want any more movies made, he coildhave just come out of the woodwork a yr ago and told us. This news would have been a lot easier to bear in 2006. If we're not going to get any more films, I'd be able to bear it if people were more honest, instead of all this prolonged monkeying around. Am I selfish? Maybe. But no more than millions who have been led on to beleive, by everyone this year--and with their silence, the Estate most of all--that they gave grudging approval of this.


Zmulady
Rohan

Feb 12 2008, 7:25pm


Views: 14633
say what you want

I think it's ok what you said, it's ok what everyone has said.....Isn't that what these boards are for? besides I think we are all a little worked up over the news. It's frustrating!!!!


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 7:29pm


Views: 14672
As for artistic integrity of the films....

I can't understand by now why Christopher apparently thinks that ANY film adaptation will strictly adhere to the books. NO adaptation of a classic does. I've watched just about all of Hollywood's adaptations of classics. Even great films like "The Grapes Of Wrath" have major changes. (I could run down a dozen Hollywood Classics adaptation from the '30s, the Golden Age of Hollywood, and name scads of changes.Starting with The Wizard OF Oz. For those of you who have read the book, even the thought of song and dance musical is blasphemy.) Whoever makes a Tolkien adaptation is to tweak things, however slightly.that MOVIES are MOVIES and BOOKS are Books. Not knocking the purists of courseTongue But take the first Harry Potter film. It was faithful to the letter, and artistically, it's the worst of the lot.

Of course, some errors are greater than others (and I am not an out and out PJ worshipper) but what would make CT think that someone like even Del Toro will film the book page by page? The only way he is to be assured of literary perfection is to have a minder from The Estate on the set every day, like a tourist guide in China or Soviet Union, with a copy of the book open to the scene they are filming, standing ten feet away from the director, and making all the cast and crew sign artistic agreements so there will be no script changes under the actor's door. ....so NOTHING goes wrong. Absolute faithfulness, without changes being made, is impossible. Hey, if they employ a substitute for The Professor, fine with me! I'm all for literary despotism! Tongue. But not even Jo Rowling herself colkd stop massive changes from being made to HP.

But then, I'm just opening up the ancient can of worms:)

It's time to let us fans know out and out: is he doing this to stop the films from being made or not? Honesty is what I appreciate here.


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Feb 12 2008, 7:39pm)


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 7:31pm


Views: 14614
Oops.

Forgot to post in Threaded. See my "Well, Okay" post below:)


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Feb 12 2008, 7:58pm


Views: 14734
Christopher Tolkien doesn't hate the films.

This is not a reply to JRR, but a general response to several comments in the thread that mention Christopher Tolkien. He doesn't hate the films -- see the quote that Darkstone recently posted.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us Feb. 11-17 for "The Ring Goes South".


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 12 2008, 8:26pm


Views: 14670
If it's a corporation

then the rights stay within the corporation even if Zaentz dies. The corporation is a legal person, and survives the death of a shareholder.

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.


NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


bettybalin
The Shire

Feb 12 2008, 8:49pm


Views: 14630
Seems fishy

Well, I have to admit I’m a bit of a cynic about the whole thing. But then, I deal with contract law.

Like all here, I haven’t seen the particular document that sold the film rights (However, I have little sympathy for the Tolkien estate here, in that they are upset with how the rights are currently held. Tolkien himself sold the rights, as a competent adult. The terms, the amount, they were all approved by him. It’s a well known fact that if an artist wants to permanently control his works, he shouldn’t sell them. Yes, the films made an obscene money in comparison with the 10K the rights were sold for, but 10K was a lot of money in the 60’s for a author. Either he was desperate for cash or didn’t care about control, but regardless, that’s hardly the purchasers fault. They paid for the rights in good faith and have the ability to use it as they see fit. The author, much less his son who has personally profited from his father’s decisions, does not really have the right for take-back-ies.)

In regards to this newest lawsuit, the timing isn’t terribly surprising. They are striking when NL is the most vulnerable. The rights revert to Zaentz if NL doesn’t start production this year. They know that NL is over a barrel and will attempt to settle as quickly as possible.

However, I find it REALLY hard to believe that the Tolkien estate, if it is truly entitled to funds, hadn’t breathed a word publicly of this until now if it hadn’t received a penny. It just seems very fishy. It’s so easy to jump on the “big-bad-NL bandwagon.” NL is definitely playing expected, industry standard, Hollywood money game of tweaking the books, but I doubt even they would try just not paying someone a penny that was legally entitled to it. Especially an entity as litigious as the Tolkien Estate. There is obviously something more going on here…


orcbane
Gondor


Feb 12 2008, 9:08pm


Views: 14622
I want Ronalds left shinbone as a relic

and then maybe many Tolkien fans will make a pilgrimage to my home and visit me while admirring my Ronald shinbone. Bring exotic coffees to leave at the shrine. Laugh

I'm in the 'smells fishy' camp at the moment. I don't mean our camp smells fishy I, mean the Tolkien Estate suit and timing smells fishy.

Why didn't they bring this forward before ?

It looks like a spoilage attempt on the new films, or just as bettybalin mentioned a plain old viking plundering raid. New Line is like the modern Lindesfarn (can I have a spell check). I would guess Mr C doesn't like the 2nd film of connective tissue. Too close to his baby, which for some reason he does not want to see made into a film. I wish he would get over it already. Its 2008 C. Thats MMVIII. Why deny the cinema world exposure to these works ?

An Ent juggling spikey things ?


bettybalin
The Shire

Feb 12 2008, 9:10pm


Views: 14606
Fishy continued


In Reply To
NL is definitely playing expected, industry standard, Hollywood money game of tweaking the books, but I doubt even they would try just not paying someone a penny that was legally entitled to it. Especially an entity as litigious as the Tolkien Estate.



I’m of course speaking of someone entitled to gross profits. Net profits? There never are any in Hollywood accounting.

I know how Hollywood works seems foreign to most of us, but its predatory practices continue because of the never-ending threat of blacklist. You complain, you don’t get work. End of story. Shaye tried that with PJ and was probably shocked when he told him to stuff it (politely, of course). Hollywood is used to capitulation. Hollywood is not used to outsiders with more money than god AND principles.


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 12 2008, 10:43pm


Views: 14582
*sigh*

I don't think I was able to make clear what I meant.

If I blame anyone, than it is New Line. I was not so much angry about the lawsuit itself (though the timing *is* suspect), as I think if NL truly didn't pay all this money, Tolkien Estate has every right to sue them. You could take that from my earlier posts in this discussion.

What I was objecting to is the opinion they - or CT - are telling everyone they sue NL because of the money, but in truth only want to get their rights back. To me, this seems a bit underhanded, and I am not sure CT would revert to such means. That has nothing whatsoever to do with taking out my disappointment on CT, but with the expectation of honesty, even if that may be rather odd in this business. From him I expect better than that, simply.

Anyway, this may delay the whole movie so much that NL loses the rights anyway; courts aren't famous for speed. And can they take the rights from Zaentz because NL betrayed them? This is going to be a long and confusing playground for lawyers, I fear.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 12 2008, 10:55pm


Views: 14568
Completely agree

I say this as an artist and a Tolkien fan. And I greatly want to see the film made.

My LJ
My art site
Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 12 2008, 11:00pm


Views: 14573
QFT and QFE

It's ridiculous bringing up the "PJ ruined some things/all things in LOTR" when this argument is concerning *New Line* and the Tolkien Estate. PJ, from what I recall, is not an employee of NL. Angelic

My LJ
My art site
Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 12 2008, 11:05pm


Views: 14063
I am refraining to judge him

Until I see what happens in this case. I am happy that he has published so much of his father's work posthumorously, but I would be sorely disappointed if he took the rights to film the Hobbit back and didn't plan on letting them go to anyone. But again, I'm withholding my judgement of the Estate for now; I personally hope it ends up with the filming rights of the Hobbit back in Zaentz' possession, with the estate's blessing (or, at least, not contempt).

My LJ
My art site
Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 12 2008, 11:11pm


Views: 14115
That was an unnecessary and rather offensive comment.

PJ's movies have been critiqued plenty of times here. But yes, many of us are fans. And yet you seem to elude that we forget that JRR Tolkien originally wrote the book and created the world that PJ interpreted.

And I, for one, do not appreciate such a patronizing attitude.

May I stick the "NARF" tag on myself now?

Edit: I'd like to add that I didn't read such an attitude from any of fryguy's posts, and agree with a few of his points.

My LJ
My art site
Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

(This post was edited by Ainu Laire on Feb 12 2008, 11:12pm)


Elven
Valinor


Feb 12 2008, 11:17pm


Views: 14059
Its not Christopher ..

Im not seeing that this is a way for Christopher to stop anything, but to uphold contractual obligations to recieive the monies that the charity are due, they have not been paid. And as Peter held out with his lawsuit and wouldn't touch the Hobbit until things were paid, so too, I see the Estate doing the same thing. They have lost countless $, and maybe now, through the book sales and percentages, they can take on someone like New Line vigourously - I would do the same.
... and Ive said there will be unforseen delays all along with the Hobbit - since 2003, and this is another one of them ... its not just Christopher Tolkien, its also Harpers, and they may win this, but I dont think this will stop the Hobbit from being made, it may delay it, but I just see this movie worming its way into the hands of people who will do the right thing. It might just be about integrity, and that involves being paid the dues which are owed to them rightfully.
I would be very angry too, if a company had made billions and refused to pay percentages owed for something they had borrowed, only to see them try and do this again ... especially with works such as the Hobbit or any other Tolkien works. And this is not there first approach. New Line have basially scoffed at them and told them to go away ... it is that New Line arrogance which has fuelled this ... NL has bitten the hands that fed them ...

I think there's still hope ... but the finances still need sorting out ... Smile

Cheers Elven


Amy Winehouse acquires Shire retreat for Summer ...


Amy Winehouse sells Shire retreat in Autumn ...


Tolkien was a Capricorn!
The Hobbit!!
Its a Happening Thing!!

Russell Crowe for Beorn

Sauruman: "Do know how the fan girls/boys first came into being? ... they were Tolkien scholars once ... Taken by the Dark Director, tempted to hold moots & dress up like Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves and Wizards ... A ruined & terrible form of life, not to mentions bad grades ... and now perfected at TORN ...
Whom do you serve!"


mwirkk
Rohan

Feb 12 2008, 11:20pm


Views: 14079
Although...

On another branch of this topic, N.E. Brigand points out (2/12/08 19:58, post #93) a quote of CT from DarkStone (1/31/08 7:09, post #17, Main thread "How Disappointing!!!") reads:

{"'My own position is that 'The Lord Of The Rings' is peculiarly unsuitable to transformation into visual dramatic form. 'On the other hand, I recognize that this is a debatable and complex question of art, and the suggestions that have been made that I 'disapprove' of the films, whatever their cinematic quality, even to the extent of thinking ill of those with whom I may differ, are wholly without foundation."
-Christopher Tolkien
}

This was from a Dec.10, 2001 AP press report, and is available on many web-sites. Thx to Darkstone, and to N.E. Brigand, for bringing that into the dialog.

As with the context in which the quote was use previously, it shows that CT's view of the films is largely either misunderstood or misrepresented. Afterall, as head of the Trust, it is is prime directive to safe-guard the integrety of his father's legacy. Even if he were secretly an enthusiastic fan of the films, he must take an approach which is conservative to a fault. Otherwise, precidents might be set that would cause their position to eventually spiral out of control. It is not unlike the stance companies must take to protect their registered trademarks.

-mwirkk :)


Elven
Valinor


Feb 12 2008, 11:32pm


Views: 14064
I think the TE have been on the backburner ..

But not out of the fray ...

They have tried to see whats going on before with NL and have been snubbed ... I think they are laying alot on the line for this, and look who the plantiffs are - the family of the charity, the family of Tolkien ... I think NL are up against the wall.

I dont think the timing is suspicious ... I think its perfect timing ...
(see posts above, above, above about the timing, NL, Warner, Shaye Lynne contracts, writers strike)

Cheers Elven


Amy Winehouse acquires Shire retreat for Summer ...


Amy Winehouse sells Shire retreat in Autumn ...


Tolkien was a Capricorn!
The Hobbit!!
Its a Happening Thing!!

Russell Crowe for Beorn

Sauruman: "Do know how the fan girls/boys first came into being? ... they were Tolkien scholars once ... Taken by the Dark Director, tempted to hold moots & dress up like Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves and Wizards ... A ruined & terrible form of life, not to mentions bad grades ... and now perfected at TORN ...
Whom do you serve!"


bettybalin
The Shire

Feb 12 2008, 11:47pm


Views: 14037
Timing

Oh, I don’t deny that it is perfect timing, as far as perfect timing to get the maximum amount of money out of NL. It was well timed on their part, in that regard.

I just find it puzzling that that it’s been kept under wraps until now. If NL truly had breached contract that egregiously, that long ago, it would have come out before now, I’d think. Yes, pre-court proceedings and attempts at negotiations take quite some time, but this swooping in from the wings at the perfect second just seems odd.

The chance of NL/Bob Shaye/PJ resolving things enough to get to this point has been pretty low up until recently. So, I can’t see them holding off since 2000 on a complaint about lack of payment just for the absolute maximum impact eight years later.

It would be more believable coming out when Zaentz or PJ filed. “Hey, you didn’t get paid enough? Count yourself lucky! We didn’t get paid at all!” They didn’t have anything to lose (like a future relationship with NL, or that future payments might be halted or slowed), and everything to gain (since they supposedly hadn’t received a dime).

But then again, I’m the world’s biggest skeptic.


fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 13 2008, 12:22am


Views: 14049
Disagree

I really think you are way off the deep end here with your misguided statement that Tolkien went into the sale of his film rights willingly. He was under enormous pressure from the taxman back in the UK. No sale made under that kind of wilting pressure is one that can even remotely be termed as willing. I would also argue that these type of situations have occurred many times. Take a look at how many authors, artists, musicians, etc have been left penniless due to bad deals foisted upon them by large publisher's, record company execs or movie moguls. I will always side with the creators of art as opposed to the creators of nothing. As to not having the right to take back control of his works, that is incorrect. Eventually the estate most certainly will have artistic control restored to them. Read the link to copyright law that I posted earlier. As to whether or not they have the right in this case to take back the film rights, that will be decided in court. They obviously do have the right to try. Some have stated that if Tolkien and Harper Collins do prevail that the film rights will simply revert back to Zaentz. This is not a given either as Zaentz could also be found in breach of contract. The argument will likely go something like this.

Zaentz was under contractual obligation to ensure that Tolkien's charity received 7.5% of the gross. Zaentz assigns the rights (and obligations) to New Line. New LIne breaches its obligations and the Tolkien estate and charity are not paid their due. Zaentz therefore is also in breach as he failed to ensure that the Tolkien charity was paid and it was HIS obligation to make sure this happened. Tolkien estate regains the rights to the films. Zaentz is now free to sue New Line for his losses due to their breach of contract between Zaentz and New Line. This is just a possible scenerio, I am not saying with any certainty that it will turn out this way but if I were representing the estate and Harper Collins this would be how I would approach it.

As to why you haven't heard much about this dispute before, it is very likely that as stated, the Tolkien estate was trying to resolve this matter out of court and simply got fed up with New Line's refusal to pay up. In addition, I do agree with many on here who have suggested that New LIne, in its current weakened state is ripe for the picking. Your doubts that New Line would refuse to pay someone the money owed them is something I think you should also carefully re-examine. Zaentz had to sue New Line to get them to pay up. Jackson had to sue New Line to get them to pay up. Viggo Mortenson and the other cast members also had to take a stand against New Line due to New Line's poor treatment of the actors.


(This post was edited by Altaira on Feb 13 2008, 4:17am)


bettybalin
The Shire

Feb 13 2008, 12:45am


Views: 14047
Death and Taxes

Yes, everyone has to make hard decisions, especially when they are having money problems. But the problem wasn’t caused by the film right purchaser. Maybe Tolkien could have gotten a better deal later, or would have preferred not to sell at all, but he still made that decision under his own power. He even could have chosen something else to sell, and he didn’t.

I needed to pay a debt, so I sold some things that meant a lot to me. Should I complain to ebay when I realized those collectibles could be sold for a higher price if I had taken my time and did a private sale? No. Should I blame the purchaser from taking something that meant a lot from me, or at least preventing me from getting the best price possible? No. I’m an adult, and must live with the consequences of my actions. This is obviously a relatively minor example, but an example nonetheless. An author is not exempt from those decisions either. We are all human, and all have to make hard choices and live with them.

I’m not saying NL is innocent, far from it. Their track record does not speak well. It’s just not an unusual track record for the industry. The industry fudges the numbers all the time in their favor, but eight years of “the check is in the mail, I swear!” is not. The other parties sued because they felt that they weren’t paid enough. The Estate is saying that they weren’t paid at all. Quite a big difference.I’m just having a problem with the complete radio silence up until now regarding this issue.


(This post was edited by bettybalin on Feb 13 2008, 12:51am)


overlithe64
Rivendell

Feb 13 2008, 1:00am


Views: 14057
another view....I'm a bit put off by NL

This may or may not be a popular view here...I'm a lurker not a poster usually...BUT

Personally I hope NL goes down in flames, they lose their option....Yeah it would mean a delay, but I thought for some time now that RINGs was a success despite them not because of them...yes yes they gave PJ the go-ahead to make the three films..I know..but that is the first and last thing they did and they only did it because they had a sudden epiphany with dollar signs.

With New Line out of the picture (hopefully) Saul will find someone else...what are the chances that NO ONE will want to make the pre-quil? Perhaps Pete will be available to direct....and we won't have to deal with the very fan unfriendly NL ever again...may they RIP.

I've had some not so nice interactions with them...though no cause to sue, though when the Tolkien Estate finishes with them there won't be anything left....Sorry if this is an unpopular view...I may be one of the only people who wants the hobbit made that was disappointed that NL actually got it together to "say" they were moving forward. How many people have to sue them for the same thing before someone realizes they are not reputable, at least not now, it makes me ill how much $$ I sent their way over the last 7 years....its sickening.


They are not worthy of our trust, and certainly not worthy of the material, in my opinion they never were.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Feb 13 2008, 1:04am


Views: 14020
1973, actually.

And while I certainly find that more people here like than dislike Peter Jackson's adaptations of The Lord of the Rings, dissent has always been a regular part of these forums.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us Feb. 11-17 for "The Ring Goes South".


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 13 2008, 1:09am


Views: 14040
Sifting Through The Posts

I think many opinions posted here have valid points & elements of the real story in them, except the one about getting offended by what someone else says - been there, done that & folks are just putting in their 2 cents, no reason to get mad after all........

BettyBalin raises some excellent points in her first post from a legal perspective that this is probably buisness as usual in Hollywood.

I think that regardless of his motives, Tolkien DID sell the rights for $10,00, a good sum in his day & 'tough darts' (as my aunt used to say). Who knew that prices would excelerate so astronomically? It's sorta like Willie Mays, the greatest living baseball player making $125,000 in 1965 while AROD earns $27,000,000 in 2008. Does this mean Willie should get a retroactive raise out of the Giants?
Only if his contract stated he should get 7.5% of what the highest paid player for each season until his death got..........

As for that Christopher Tolkien quote on not dislking movie adaptations, let us note the date: December 10, 2001. When did the Fellowship of the Ring come out? In the USA, December 19, 2001. I believe Dec. 17, 2001 in England, but I might be off several days. I believe it was shown around Dec. 10, 2001 in New Zealand, but was CT there? I would like to see a quote from him after TTT came out with all it's changes, & even moreso after the whole trilogy was released. That would hold alot more weight than a quote from December 10, 2001.
Personally, I know I was very high after TFOR but very down after the many changes in TTT. I wonder if CT might've felt the same. I felt pretty redeemed after ROTK, yet I'm not JRRT, the ultimate purist's son either.

Finally, I do agree that every movie adapted from a book has to have some changes. Even The Godfather, the ultimate novel turned to film does, like cutting out the death of the Godfather's best freind & 'consigliare', Genco at the beginning - after they actually filmed a very powerful scene sometimes shown in 'The Godfather Chronicles':

"Stay with me Godfather...If you do, even death will be afraid to come into the room." Cool


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 13 2008, 1:17am


Views: 14031
Welcome to the world of NARF

Because, of course, we're too blinded to think clearly Wink

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.


NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 13 2008, 1:31am


Views: 14029
Thinking Clearly?

It just dawned on me, although somebody else has probably said it before - trying to remember 5 pages of posts while composing your own thoughts is not easy....

Anyhow, The Tolkien Estate is obviously owed the $150 Million & has chosen the most 'deadly' time to force New Line to cough up the money, that's all.

By suing now, either New line forks over the $$$ or the movie is stopped.
I bet stopping film production forever is not the Estate's goal, but just a leverage tool to get New Line to pay up.

The Hobbit will go on in production as planned - New Line will pay up because too much profits are at stake.


fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 13 2008, 1:48am


Views: 14007
the numbers

Actually they sued for 150 Million PLUS unspecified punitive damages as well as a termination of New Line's rights to make any further films based upon Tolkien's works if I remember correctly. The amount New Line could end up losing could end up being well in excess of $150 Million and they could and likely will end up losing the rights to the Hobbit. I do not think production will go on as planned. The estate will ask for and likely get a stay placed upon the Hobbit production until this matter is settled in court.

Unless New Line finds a way to satisfy the Tolkien estate as well as Harper Collins (which I very much doubt they can) this case could easily be dragged out for a couple of years, i.e. no Hobbit from New Line. The Hobbit may in fact get made into a movie, but New Line will have no involvement in the project. Remember they are under a serious time crunch here and if production does not begin soon, they lose the right to make the films regardless of the current litigation.


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 13 2008, 3:33am


Views: 13986
Might Be

like I said, stopping production is just a 'big push' to get the money out of New Line NOW, i.e., the ultimate bargaining chip & The Estate has no desire to stop the movie from being made.

However, the other school of thought is that Christopher Tolkien isn't happy with PJ's many changes in TLOR's......

Speculation is simply that & only the next few weeks or months will clear things up.

Whatever. To me, there's always more to be discovered in the true essence of Middle-Earth, the works of JRR Tolkien, including the many papers his son Christopher has released. For example, I was just reading ''Myths Transformed' in 'Morgoths Ring' HoME Volume 10, which has a wealth of deep essays on Morgoth & Sauron & their power & how they used it - deep stuff worthy of multiple readings.......

There's nothing wrong with checking out & indeed enjoying the movies though, but they aren't 'canon' either, just fun.
I myself saw ROTK 10 times in the theatres & watched the EE's this past month (I only watch the EE's as I consider them vastly superior & complete stories). Heck, I've even watched the movies with the entire commentaries of both PJ & Copmany & also 'The Hobbits' talking........


overlithe64
Rivendell

Feb 13 2008, 4:08am


Views: 13953
Purist?

Well, I have to preface this by saying I am far far ok really far from being a purist...I am the rewrite queen. And I most certainly would never pretend to be a Tolkien expert is the company I keep here.... But, I didn't realize JRR was a purist? A mean he was exacting in his detail...but I didn't think he was ever satisfied with his work... a true perfectionist....I'm not saying he would or would not have liked all the changes, but I bet he'd have liked some of them just like the rest of us.

But that is neither here not there at this late date....But NL just burns me up....I think the estate has every right to receive their agreed upon percentage of the profits. IF they'd just come clean they'd look a lot better....they'd be much poorer...but at least they'd be honest.


Altaira
Superuser


Feb 13 2008, 4:26am


Views: 13990
Nice to see you 'de-lurk,' overlithe

And nice to see so many new faces in general. Smile

I wouldn't say your view is unpopular at all. I think we're all frustrated with New Line to some degree or another, or have been in the past. Thanks for your perspective and hope to see you around more. Smile


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Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 13 2008, 5:07am


Views: 13961
Tolkien The Purist

I would call JRR Tolkien a 'purist' because I was just re-reading his 'Letters' & he is just very exacting in ripping everyone who says anything that is one bit off of what he wrote or is wrong in talking about his life. In one case, an American edition of The Hobbit comes out with a picture of a lion, an emu & tall grass.....

I'm thinking, 'What's that?', but Tolkien writes a letter bashing the picture. Such letters were quite common from Tolkien, so that's why I call him a 'purist'. What Tolkien wrote & said & who he was, was the way it was, period.
What he would think about the PJ movies, based on the way he tore apart the cartoon movie that was going to be made in the late 50's (Letter #210), or the way people tend to 'reinterpret' his works to fit their own opinions, like his statement, in his own words, that TLOR was 'esentially a Christian & Catholic work', (in the words of The Hobbit), "I daren't think".


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Feb 13 2008, 5:32am


Views: 13972
T. Foreve, it is your obligation to post some of these lettters, or at least provide

a link. And while I noted many flaws in the films, the Balrog breaking stones wasn't one. We have gone over this, and can take it up later. Funny though, the changes I hated most were in Fellowship, not TTT. Well, Fellowship and that crap in extended ROTK. In TTT. . . my largest complaint was probably Gandalf's much amputated beard. Well. . . I could have done without Haldir being killed, but. . .

Whoever said the first Harry Potter film was the worst. . . I disagree. I think it catered more to a child audience, but so did the book. It was still a good film, relatively speaking.

As to the films. . . I will be very Angry if Christopher Tolkien and co. cause these films to be held up by so much as a fortnight!!! That said, I do still appreiciate Christopher's contributions, and love Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, along with other addenda texts. Yet my fury will not be lessened if he RUINS my Hobbit hopes. I would rather have had no news than have my 2010 hopes dashed before my eyes.

Yet, I doubt that will happen. The Hobbit is to big for TW to allow to slip away, whatever happens with New Line. IF push comes to shove, Big Brothers T and Warner will cough up the money, before they allow the film to be greatly delayed or snatched away from them. That, at least, is both my belief and my hope.

As to creativity. . . LOTR stood more risk of artistic deviation than does The Hobbit. Hobbit, the first film at least, would not require nearly as many omissions for times sake, and hopefully would not be too greatly morphed.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 13 2008, 5:48am


Views: 13948
A Link?

AinurOlorin, we need to talk about Balrogs or Dragons instead of links to Letters because when it comes to computers, I am the Missing Link - such things are beyond my skill, I am a computer moron (I'm 46 & don't work in computers).

If I post a 'quote', it's hand typed........

And, I wouldn't have a clue where to find a link to Tolkien's Letters to even post an 'http' type link that can be 'cut & pasted' - sorry.
I put the Letter #210 up here so hopefully folks could look it up as it's rather funny.

Back to Dragons. I've been thinking about the Origin of Dragons - gotta start a new thread. Unsure

Sorry folks, don't mean to hijack this one......


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 6:09am


Views: 13930
Completely agree

That's why I don't understand why the changes to the movies were thrown in into the discussion at all! PJ and NL weren't exactly 'best friends forever' over the last time, IIRC Wink

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 6:17am


Views: 13960
Thanks.

That was basically what I was trying to say yesterday, in my own blather-y way. HONESTY is the key word here. I am so angry precisely b/c I respect CT so much, I find it hard to believe that he of all people would resort to such underhanded tactics, as you say.
If he wins the suit, then the Estate won't have to to worry about the "art for cash" dilemma, that led to his father selling of the rights in the first place.; They'll be set for a good long time, and suffer no pangs of guilt at stopping the films from being made.


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 6:22am


Views: 13971
I've apologized....

elsewhere in this thread already, if you want to look. Sorry if I offended anyone.

But as I've also said elsewhere, and as Peredhil says, it seems that everyone in this whole sad affair has not played an honest hand. Even, now, the ones I thought were upfront. It's so sad to see everyone tarnished by all this. (NL is tarnished already.)


MrCere
Sr. Staff


Feb 13 2008, 6:26am


Views: 14031
I have it on pretty good authority . . .

That he has never seen the films and really doesn't care to. This was confirmed to me by two different and distinct experts. He was rather annoyed by the helicopters flying around his house when they were filming however.

Entmaiden is right about him expressing NO public view and demonstrating NO venom towards the film. (And no support either).

The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 6:38am


Views: 13943
Zaentz

Where did you get the statement that Zaentz has contractual obligation to make sure NL pays the Tolkien Estate? Sorry, but that seems rather unbelievable to me. He has no influence whatsoever over NL and had to sue them himself to get his own money - I doubt he's obliged to sue them on behalf of the Tolkien Estate as well. They can take care of their financial matters for themselves.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 6:41am


Views: 14236
Priscilla Tolkien

And I know that Priscilla visited the Oxonmoot 2003 and was asked if she thinks her father would have liked the movies. She said she doesn't believes it, but she doesn't know. Another rather cautious and neutral statement,IMO.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 6:42am


Views: 14164
Know what's fishy to me?

Now that I think about it.

Regarding the timing...art and commerce....if I were CT, and so zealous in protecting the integrity of my father's work, if I heard that Mirimax, the studio that brought us "The Crying Game" and "Pulp Fiction" (run by the famous Harvey Scissorhands, no less) were intending to slice LOTR up into 2 2 -hr long films, I would have sued Zaentz and Mirimax to get the rights back long ago. I would be in such a panic, I'd have attempted the impossible, at least. Knowing just by knowing that, how much of the tale would have had to be eviscerated.

Why didn't the Estate attempt to sue to get the rights back before? I don't know. It seems to me that they may have had the opportunity to sue in the past, and didn't do it. Are a studio's owning the rights such an ironclad thing, that they can't be sued, at least?

The thing that bothers me is that we honestly don't know how much of this is an honest desire for money and the desire for artistic control. People who can't decide on their motiives....well. In the late 90's he took a look at the Mirimax film situation and didn't seem to mind the impending desecration of LOTR, b/c they needed money. Now that they are in a posiition of strength, like I said, we can't tell if it's 2 birds with one stone.

Which to me seems the height of cynicism, on his part. Call me disrespectful, but there it is. I wish someone could interview him and ask his real reasons.


MrCere
Sr. Staff


Feb 13 2008, 6:59am


Views: 14193
I don't think she has seen them either

One of the two people I talked with told me that. It was a few years ago so it may have happened since. Your comment is VERY interesting and seems to leave the possibility open that she doesn't know because she hasn't seen them!

It would seem that with the film widely available on DVD or VHS tape or on television, they might accidentally watch it!

The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 7:02am


Views: 14177
This puzzles me

As you said, Zaentz sued NL a few yrs ago, for breach of contract. He was screwed over by NL just as much as the Estate was. And he was just as unsuccessful as the Estate at getting their just due.

Surely CT and the Estate can see that? Zaentz just didn't leave them out to dry. He isn't on the same low level as NL Far from it. He *fought* NL! So WHY would the Estate want to make an enemy out of Zaentz, by lumping him alongside NL in the suit? Zeantz is their ally, not their enemy.

If it turns out the way you forecast, then we shall see what the REAL motives are. Seems to me the Zaentz's only real crime was allowing the...well, I won't go down this path again.

Peredhil will not be the only one on here whose opinion of CT unexpectedly sinks, if this is ever suspected. It will never be proven, of course.


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 7:08am


Views: 14181
Can I co-sue?:)

B/c God knows how desperately I need the money.

ROFL....


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 7:22am


Views: 14175
Yes

From Bob Shaye, I'd believe everything by now, it wouldn't surprise me any bit if he tried something like that. But CT is another matter entirely - I simply refuse to believe he would do this until I get undeniable proof for it.

And you're right about the 'art for cash' thing. The sale of books has certainly increased since the movies came out, and when they finally get their share from NL, I'd say that compensates for the small amount of money JRRT once got for the rights. Nobody could have known back then that LotR would be such a success over decades and particularly that one day a movie trilogy would be made; for a movie everyone thought was unfilmable it was a nice sum for the time, IMO. And as it still pays off (if NL is finally paying, of course ...), I think it is okay.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 7:28am


Views: 14188
*grin*

You know, that's a point. Nobody asked if *she* has seen them, as far as I know, so it's possible she didn't know them back then, either. Would be interesting to know.

Now, with all of them available on DVD or VHS, I could imagine they would maybe be a bit more inclined to watch at all, because it wouldn't be so public as in a cinema. In their place, I'd not want to be besieged by curious fans questioning them about every single detail and avoid the cinema at all costs! Oh well, maybe one day we will know ...

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 7:31am


Views: 14164
We should found a Sue Estate ;-) //

 

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Draupne
Forum Admin / Moderator

Feb 13 2008, 9:56am


Views: 14180
I'm guessing

AL's post was about Tolkien Forevers post, Sunflower, not yours.
:-)


fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 13 2008, 10:22am


Views: 14155
Response to Sunflower

Zaentz has not been named in the lawsuit filed against New Line. I am merely speculating that the estate and Harper Collins will seek to have the film rights returned to them as part of any settlement as this suit may in fact provide them with an opportunity to do so.

As to your opinion that Zaentz is the ally of the estate, I believe you are looking at things perhaps a bit to simplistically. Zaentz has control of some of Tolkien's works. The estate would naturally like to regain control. This makes them adversaries as their positions are not in agreement.

Now as to Zaentz, I do not believe that he committed any "crime" at all. I will venture a guess, however, that Zaentz, in spite of the fact that he assigned the film making rights to New Line, still was responsible to the estate for the 7.5% which Zaentz was contractually obligated to provide.

CT and the estate have every legal right to pursue the course of action they have chosen, whatever their motives. In my opinion CT is doing exactly the right thing and his motives are noble. There is nothing at all wrong with him, the estate and Harper Collins trying to regain control over Tolkien's works. I think that many fans of the film are so upset that their precious Hobbit film might not be made within the time frame they are hoping for that they have unjustifiably slammed CT and the estate for filing suit.

I will state again that we should be supporting Tolkien's family and their estate as Tolkien and his son are the ones who gave us this wonderful story and world we claim to value so much. As I have stated before, I too would like to see the Hobbit on the big screen. I would prefer to see it accomplished with the blessing of CT and his family. I do not have a problem with this film being delayed if it gives us a better film in the long run.

In closing I must again take issue with those who are jumping on CT. I challenge any of you to name one single progeny of a famous author who has done more for the author's fans in terms of cobbling together lost notes, manuscripts, etc and putting them together in a form the authors fans can appreciate. CT has been a god send to all true fans of Middle Earth and I think it is highly unfair to take out your frustrations on him simply because you may have to wait a while to see the Hobbit made into film.


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 13 2008, 10:27am


Views: 14166
Howdy, overlthe64 :D

New Line has definitely left a sour taste for me, and I have the feeling that IF they do lose their rights to making The Hobbit and its sequel, Zaentz will absolutely pull Peter in on it and continue the momentum of prep. I have the feeling that Zaentz won't be caught completely off balance because he and his people (as well as MGM, etc.) were making plans and searching possibilities when NL (Shaye specifically) were vowing Peter would never be involved. It could even be that Zaentz and the Tolkien Estate have had conversations about what would happen if NL wasn't in the picture (pardon the pun).

This is too bizarre to not have a reason for it happening. Jackson wants to make the films, Zaentz wants to make the films with Peter... everything is poised and ready to go except for the fact that all of New Line's manipulations and bad business hobbits... I mean... habits that they apparently have practiced through ALL of the contracts for LotR are coming back to bite them. This also doesn't stop the screenplay/planning process. NL's involvement has nothing to do with the creativity behind these 2 films.

I think IF NL loses and the rights fall back to Zaentz, the only thing left to do is re-write some contracts by changing one of the principles and get on with it! I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see the rights go to a company in NZ called Wingnut. Never say Never when Tolkien's stories are involved. They seem to have this magical protector guiding Tolkien's works to where they belong.

*gazes into crystal ball* I trust it's all going to be fine without a lot of time lost :)




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fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 13 2008, 10:36am


Views: 14164
Possibly

Your speculation as to the future of the film may in fact be correct, assuming Zaentz comes through this whole process unscathed. One thing I will predict, however, is that there will be a delay of at least a year and a half and likely longer in getting this project up and running as I am fairly certain that this legal process will take quite some time to work its way through the courts.


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 13 2008, 10:38am


Views: 14166
And I don't think

Pricilla or any other members who have tried to remain neutral one way or the other in the comments of the films would EVER admit they did see them ;)

I find it hard to believe that none of them have seen any pictures or images from the films when they were being released. I would think they'd want to see a bit of the films to see what the world looks like through Jackson's interpretation after some of the stunning images used in promotions. Even if they didn't appreciate the adaptation, the imagery and music have a life of their own. I'd love for them to experience that aspect of the films... the honour and devotion showered on them from the respect of Tolkien's work.

I wonder if those same family members have ever seen the Rankin/Bass or Bakshi versions of the stories? It could be a universal decision to never see (or admit to seeing) adaptations.

I have the utmost respect for their stand on the films. They don't condemn, they don't promote, they remain unto themselves in their own realm... much like Dwarves, Elves and Hobbits were known to do :)




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grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 13 2008, 10:45am


Views: 14148
That's assuming

it must endure the entire process. They could settle by NL agreeing to make good their promises and possibly relinquishing their rights. We'll never know what or if things are discussed and agreed upon behind closed doors. Maybe, "You pull out, we'll drop the suit*. NL would miss out on their collaboration with Jackson... which they'd already decided was totally acceptable before. They'd lose out on the cash cow that will result from the films, but they wouldn't be totally destroyed and live on to make more films. The reality of the time involved is that some of the players who are such a big part of the story have seen many winters, and others may get busy in projects that would make it impossible for them to participate... so the luxury of taking their time could dilute the impact of how these films look in the end; and they don't want that if it's avoidable.

It's a drama, fersher. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.




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grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 13 2008, 10:49am


Views: 14153
*snigger* True True :D

Just when I think about changing my footer, something else pops up! *looks through thread* We are a passionate people, aren't we :D We could even fill the page with this one!




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Earl
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 13 2008, 12:38pm


Views: 14141
Oh Gramma

I was gonna suggest you change your footer one of these days since things were definitely going to move ahead at a fast pace. I'm glad I didn't else I would've thought I was the jinx Crazy

Anyway, back to the topic.

Firstly, there's a few thoughts around here to the effect that if the rights revert to the Tolkien Estate, it will only "delay" the production of these movies. With all due respect, I beg to differ. I'm pretty sure that if the TE ever gets the rights back, these movies will never see the light of day. So I understand the anger that fans (who want to see a cinematic adaptation) feel toward the TE, and Christopher Tolkien as well. I am one of them. I am of the belief that once you hand over a work of art to the populace, it belongs as much to them as it does to the creator. I am not justifying the fact that they can/should be misused, but the fact that you should respect the views and interpretations of others as much as you do your own, even if they conflict with each other. After all, that's the reason why Tolkien's works have endured. It spoke to people across generations and cultures because they each made these works their own. And many found they held common views because they went through similar experiences in life, and that these tales spoke to them in a language that made them understand each other.

That's what the movies are about as well. It's why they live on almost a decade later. It's why people like me started a website, it's why people like Magpie pursue the lyrics and emotions behind the soundtracks, it's why people like Gramma are still compiling interesting lists, it's why people like Ohio Hobbit are studying the intricacies behind the filming, and it's why people like us are still discussing them today. And whether Christopher Tolkien likes the movies or not, there's millions of people whose lives have changed (for the better) because of them. And so today, it doesn't matter to me whether he approves of the movies or not. The movies are mine now, and so are all the books he released. And the movies were PJ's since he had the legal right to put forth his interpretation of the tale. Nothing the did could ever make any Tolkien happy. Not Christopher, not JRR. None of the images in either of their heads could be brought alive by PJ. Not with the same passion at least. PJ's movies are great because those were his movies. That he left so much of Tolkien's magic in it is what I applaud him for - it made me appreciate the movies a lot, it made me appreciate the books even more. They are both tied together, even in their contradictions. That's my personal belief and it's what my site is based on.

Of course, that doesn't mean I don't respect the Tolkien's. I do. Very much. But I'm wondering now whether I've been living in a fool's paradise with a glorified image of the Tolkiens. I mean, I base my feelings towards them on the Professor's work and his way of life. I know none of them personally nor much through the media. So I could reserve judgement, but I always chose to believe that they all had the "Tolkien magic", that inexplicable something that all Tolkien fans seem to have. But whether we like it or not, we have to admit that deep down, everyone's after money, even the TE (one might argue the justification behind a deluxe Children of Hurin book with Christopher Tolkien's signature being sold over at the official Harper Collin's site for 300 GBP - its been argued over at their discussion board), and everyone's only waiting for an opportune moment to swoop down and get it. Of course, they probably are fighting for what's rightfully theirs, but what irks me is the manner in which it's being done - the suit seems to hold a threat, and it seems very un-Tolkien. It's teetering on the brink of blackmail and I don't like it. That, and the fact that they'd throw in a monkey wrench when they should (as artists) accept the fact that millions now hold their own views of Tolkien's work, and TW/NL/MGM etc. have the legal right to portray it on-screen.

So right now, I'm not really angry, just a little upset, but I'll get over it. The news is still but a day old. Now what this bodes for the upcoming movies is anyone's guess, but I personally hope that the TE gets what's rightfully owed to them, and fans (like me) who've been waiting for these movies get what we've been waiting for.



Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 1:04pm


Views: 14145
Of course they wouldn't admit it

But I could truly imagine they've seen them in secret.

Never saw the Rankin/Bass version, but from what I've heard about these earlier movies, I doubt I'd love them. So it would be probably understandable that the Tolkiens aren't happy with movies made from JRRT's work at all. But I always think, even if they're probably as irritated with certain changes PJ made as many fans, they'd at least appreciate the unbelievable love to little details in costumes, weapons and other props. I can't for the life of me imagine any Hollywood made movie would have gone to even a tenth of the trouble Weta did. For me it was not so much the story line itself that worked the magic, but the combination of story and background detail. It made Middle-earth so real - and that was PJ's masterpiece. Can anyone watch that without appreciating it at least a little?

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


burrahobbit
Rohan


Feb 13 2008, 1:31pm


Views: 14169
Does does the two film 'bridge' idea have any bearing on this?

I don't understand all the legal rights and processes unfortunately, but say New Line lose the rights to the film and they revert back to Zaentz, do you think the bridge film idea would stay?

The bridge film concept is a much more dramatic departure from Tolkien than any of the changes PJ's team implemented in the LotR films. Although the idea appeals in some ways, it could be interpreted cynically as a revenue earner. Might it even have been the bridge film idea that has upset the Tolkien estate into wanting to stop The Hobbit going into production? I know they probably just want their money, but it's fun to speculate...


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 13 2008, 2:37pm


Views: 14138
Tolkien's letters are copyrighted

so they can not be reproduced here. Or linked, either.

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.


NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 13 2008, 3:35pm


Views: 14154
Just as the litigation

that went on between Jackson's camp and NL erupted like a volcano at first, things do settle down. I think part of the intentional impact of a lawsuit is to let go with both barrels to reveal the worse-case scenario. It's like buying and selling. All bargaining starts high and low then eventually find a common ground. I think that's what's going on right now. I sincerely don't believe the Tolkien Estate wants to undermine the films. Even if they don't embrace the projects (past or future), I get the feeling they do honour agreements and contracts. Zaentz bought the rights long ago from J.R.R. Tolkien himself, and I think that his agreements will be honoured.

I think the TE wants NL out. They're sick of the games; and even if NL has learned their lesson in their business dealings (hopefully), it may be too little too late. If they pull out now, they'll still have a company with no threat of losing it (this time).

I'm just going to sit back and wait for the dust to settle. I feel it in my gut that these films will be made, and this will all be settled very soon. I'll let the legals and suits do their thing and just stay out of the way ;) I felt panic before when NL and Peter were at odds. I don't get a smidge of anxiety here. Impatience, yes. Doom, no. :)

I guess I'll keep the footer for a teeeeeeny bit longer ;)




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lauranna
Registered User

Feb 13 2008, 4:54pm


Views: 14165
And Zaentz is suing NL again...

according to Variety: http://www.variety.com/...mp;cs=1&nid=2567


bettybalin
The Shire

Feb 13 2008, 4:57pm


Views: 14115
Assignors and Assignees

Obviously, none of us have seen these mythical contracts, so please take this with a grain of salt. However, even if the TE is owed the money, I rather doubt it will mean the rights will revert to TE.

Assignors (Zaentz) typically do not retain any contractual responsibilities over the assignees (NL). There would be no way to enforce them, and it would be a huge potential liability for the assignor. It would be like an apartment manager being responsible to make sure the tenant pays his utility bills, and if he doesn’t, the apartment manager loses the contract with the owner. Because if you have the responsibility to see that the payment is made, and the payment isn’t made, that means the money would have to come out of your own pocket. You would have the responsibility to audit books, monitor payments, etc. I can’t see Zaentz entering into such a poor, out of norm, contract, he seems like a very savvy entrepreneur.

In addition, if it were so easy to void a contract when the terms aren’t met, Zaentz would have voided the contract and regained the rights when NL didn’t pay him the amount he felt he was owed (edit to add: and he still hasn't been paid in full, apparently! If he's having problems seeing the books for his own payments, he certainly wouldn't be able to see the books to make sure TE gets it's full cut). Usually, failure to meet terms means a whopping great fine (or more likely, an out of court settlement), not rescission of the contract.

However, even if the TE’s legal arguments for the money they felt they are owed are made of string and wet macaroni, they are still capable of tying this up in court for years. Which I’m sure they know, and they know that NL will be motivated to settle quickly. NL isn’t going to relinquish their rights easily, regardless of fault, because after settling with PJ, losing the rights now would just be throwing good money after bad.

On an unrelated note, anyone have any experience with writers contracts? 7.5% of the gross seems awfully high to me, because that’s generally most of a films profit margin. It just seems like a huge cut for a supposed “poor” contract. However, I don’t have a personal experience with writers contracts, I’m just going off half-remembered articles from the trade magazines.


(This post was edited by bettybalin on Feb 13 2008, 5:06pm)


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 5:33pm


Views: 14085
That seems logical

Thanks for these explanations! Your opinion sounds much more logical than what Fryguy said. As I already stated, I see no way how Zaentz could be held responsible for NL. Had a similar comparison as your tenant in mind when thinking things through :)

We're in for an interesting time, I think, until this all is sorted out. It would be fascinating when, after all is said and done, an insider would write a book about New Line and their questionable accounting! Though that will probably never happen - but I'm getting curious Wink

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 13 2008, 5:46pm


Views: 14100
That looks to be pretty typical of him

Not that it isn't relevant - it looks like his suit is consistent with what we're seeing from the Tolkien estate. It's just that Zaentz has a history of being lawsuit-happy.

From what the article says, Zaentz is in arbitration with New Line, and New Line is refusing to allow him to audit the books until he settles the arbitration claims. Zaentz is probably in the right to file a suit - New Line is on increasingly thin ground with regards to allowing an audit of the books, and using that as a stick to get Zaentz to settle isn't going to win them any friends on the court. Especially since New Line lost so spectacularly last year over some documents they were supposed to provide. Withholding an audit just makes it seem more clear they have something to hide. Judges don't like that strategy very well.

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.


NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


mordor
Registered User

Feb 13 2008, 7:03pm


Views: 14106
DROP NEW LINE NOW!!!!

MadNew Line deserves to not only be sued but should lose all rights to producing any further Tolkein stories related to LOTR. New Line has gone too far by biting the hand that feeds it bank accounts. If the news stories are true that they have not paid one penny in royalties to the creator's estate then they should burn. I would wait 20 years to see The Hobbit on the big screen! In a perfect world the Tolkein estate should give the options to a movie company that respects the genius of the writer and get Peter Jackson to produce, write, and direct one of the 20th century's greatest stories ever told. I've got my books and DVD collection to tide me over until then.

In Reply To
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080211/ap_en_mo/tolkien_lawsuit_1



N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Feb 13 2008, 7:15pm


Views: 13014
I think she has.

At least, based on Modtheow's report from the Q&A at Tolkien 2005, it seems that Priscilla Tolkien had seen at least the film of Fellowship.

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Join us Feb. 11-17 for "The Ring Goes South".


hanshotfirst1138
The Shire


Feb 13 2008, 7:58pm


Views: 12967
You'd think that they'd have learned.

And with our luck, this could mean a delay for The Hobbit and maybe even cost us del Toro. Really, you'd think that New Line would have learned the last two times they did this :rolleyes:.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.


Oden
Rivendell


Feb 13 2008, 8:45pm


Views: 12970
Just jumping in the middle of this

but I find the different viewpoints interesting. Although I think that all parties involved should get what is owed them legally, I fear a delay because of certain actors that may not be around in years to come. I am speaking specifically of those "return" actors who are getting along in years...you know who I am speaking of.

If a delay happens, I hope we don't loose these actors.


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 8:50pm


Views: 12969
Response to FryGuy:)

Look, let me state it again, I do NOT hate CT or the Estate. It's just that the TIMING of this whole thing has me suspicious of their motives.

You state that it would be a good thing that the Estate got back the rights, so we could have the Tolkien family's "full blessing" to make the best Hobbit adaptation possible. But as several people have posted on here regarding CT and Priscilla's apparent attitude toward the films (Priscilla never saw them in a theater either, apparently, and makes you think that they went out of their way to rent them on a DVD, once the heat of media pressure was off? ) I have a hard time believing that they want any more adaptations to be made. That statement of CT's that NE Brigand referred to, dated December 10, 2001, that indicated that CT did not "disapprove" of the impending LOTR films (sight unseen by the world at that point), did not sound to me like a willingness to change his opinion and give them some grudging respect. It sounded to me like a bleated mea culpa, a polite nothing for the media who were pressuring him for a statement. Spoken like the gentleman he is, of course; but still, a statement forced under pressure. And not an indication of what he really felt. As to any statements made AFTER the film's release, we have not heard one peep. Sure, he isn't expected to give any, but all indications are that he has not changed his opinion one iota.

And neither, it seems, has the Elder Echelon of the Tolkien family, who are the ones in control of this whole thing. Probably, anyway. Who was the one younger member of the family who spoke out in support of the films, and was disinherited soon after? The Family could simply have censured him in some way about making public statements of such a nature, if that was all he did wrong. But no, he was cast out. I'm sure they had some sort of private quarrel going on, we have no idea. God only knows. But you can bet that the films must have a been part of it. But the timing of that occurrence, too, makes me skeptical.

As to Zaentz being an "ally" I did not mean in literal terms. I merely was trying to say that there seemed to me to be no apparent reason to brand him as an adversary in a lawsuit, either, IF this was a lawsuit about money, rather then one about getting the rights back. CT has indicated it is both. Or it seems to be. Both his timing and his methods seem to be duplicious--he is using Art to get Mammon, and versa vice.

As to your opinions about CT.....yes, yes, we should thank him for all that he has given us, etc etc. Of course I agree. But he is NOT his father. And he is not God.

I often wonder what his father would have thought of his attitude toward the films, if he had been alive. It seems to me his father was a LOT more open-minded. Again, I must refer, ad nauseum, to JRR statement about adaptations, music, art, etc etc. CT it seems to me, is acting as if Homer should be available only in print, and that anything else is pollution. His father would have been the first one to remind him that Homer began as a series of oral histories, and that in the Middle Ages, the spoken word was looked upon with more trust than a mere scroll on paper, which could be re-written. (a weird attitude, but if you think about it, it makes sense.) Should we really believe that JRR on his deathbed, gave to CT a sacred admonition to have the books be pre-eminent? ANd to get back the film rights at all cost, b/c he regretted ever selling them? Maybe he despised his father for selling them, no matter how cash-strapped the family was? Maybe he hated his father's doing that. His attitude mystifies me.

Sorry if this speculation regarding the family offends anyone. I am not trying to offend anybody. I'm just trying to make sense of all this, and wishing I could have been a fly on the wall in so many places. And you don't have to drag out the NARF banner....(as someone said yesterday)....my collection of Tolkien works is just as dog-eared as yours, and will eventually fall just as apart with use too:).

Yes, I have the utmost respect, sympathy, etc for CT< but at this point, The Estate's lack of HONESTY about its motives makes me cynical. I'd feel a lot better if they came out with a statement as to whether or not they were going to allow more films to be made. Of course, such a statement should be voluntary. And NOW is not the time,with the suit going on. But I have a nasty feeling that the only way we'd ever heard from them is if Warner's actualy tries to go ahead with the Hobbit.

It is painful, I know, to see your decades of hard work superceded (albiet temporarily, though I am not so sure of that, in a global sense) by a series of films. I could understand that attitude. But I hope CT understands and appreciates that PJ took almost a decade of his life to make those too. It was not any easier than the task he had set upon, to edit and re-write and release his father's works. Sorry if this statement offends the book purists on here, and yes, I am not a PJ worshipper et al. And OF COURSE they don't owe the filmmakers anything, they don't even owe them even a whisper of public acknowledgement. It isn't their obligation; they don't have any obligation at all.


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Feb 13 2008, 8:59pm)


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 9:10pm


Views: 13011
You CANNOT....be freaking....SERIOUS.

 

Who was it who made a cartoon about this yesterday? I think we need another.

Forget the Oscars, the end of the Strike, the SAG...oh my God. Forget the Oscar pools you may be having. We should be taking bets on when we're going to hear the official NL LIquidation Announcement. They should just shoot this dying animal and put it out of its misery.

This is beyond EPIC by this point. This may be without modern precident. More epic than Heaven's Gate and UA maybe?

One thing is for sure: After Shaye and Lynne, I'd hate to be Warner's new CEO, Jeff Bewkes, right now.CrazyTongue


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Feb 13 2008, 9:15pm)


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 13 2008, 9:32pm


Views: 12942
I agree with you completely!

That is the one reality that should influence everyone's dancing around these legal issues and delays. If these 2 films are going to be done with an effort to maintain and continue the look and feel of LotR, then enough time has been wasted already. By the time they start filming in late 2009 (their original/most recent target), it will have been 10 years since principle photography began in 1999. While the players we're the most concerned with weren't involved until early 2000, give or take a few months doesn't really warrant argument, imho.

I'm getting long in the tooth myself, and time takes on a whole new meaning as the seasons flash by. Some things warrant the opportunity to rise above marketing/lawsuits/and attitudes. All of Jackson's adaptations being realized, to me, falls into that category. They're part of filmic history... and something that will be held up as an example of classic filmmaking both in production and quality.




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AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Feb 13 2008, 9:36pm


Views: 12942
Mayber Mordor can wait 20 years. . . I don't want to wait 20 minutes! lol

Yet I agree with him on one thing. . . Drop New Line. Time Warner is the parent company, let them strip New Line of all Hobbit privelage, and continue forward with the film as scheduled, and leave New Line to pay up to Christopher and Company, even if it means handing over the entirety of what's left of the company.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Altaira
Superuser


Feb 13 2008, 9:45pm


Views: 12945
Old News

I made the same mistake at first. Look at the date on the Variety article. It's from December, and was already discussed in a thread here on Main.

*hands Sunflower a paper bag* Take some deep breaths! Laugh


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 13 2008, 10:28pm


Views: 12966
What Draupne said

That comment was not towards you, but Tolkien Forever. Sorry that you got that interpretation, friend!

My LJ
My art site
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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 13 2008, 10:51pm


Views: 12924
That was me

Me and my 'l33t art skillz' with paint ;)

Thankfully it *was* an old article, so I'll leave Stick Figure Cartoon Part 2 for when we get more news about this interesting affair between NL and everyone xD

My LJ
My art site
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fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 13 2008, 11:40pm


Views: 12923
haha good but...

Nice analogy, however, instead of thinking of it like an apartment manager being responsible for paying rent to a landlord should a tennent fail to make payments, think of it in terms of if you sublet and apartment to someone else and they fail to make payments of rent to the landlord. see where i am headed now? you, the assignor, have signed over the right to rent the apartment to the assignee. this, however, does not release you from your responsibility to pay the landlord should your assignee default on his obligation to you.

As to contracts, they are fairly easy to void for the most part. In this case, Zaentz like felt that it was more profitable for him to leave things in tact and try and get paid than to void the contract for reasons of non-performance. Your point about failure to perform leading to financial sanctions rather than recision is true up until a point. That point being unless one side wants out of the contract. In that case should there be a material breach of contract, of which non payment of the amount owed would certainly constitute such a material breach, Voiding the contract would certainly be at the discretion of the injured party. So here we have a case of party C in breach of its obligation to party B to pay party A. Party C (New Line) was obligated to party B (Zaentz) by contract with party B to pay A (TE). Again, merely speculation, but party C's breach or shall we say non-performance of its obligation to pay party A would also put party B in breach of its contract with party A.

The above was simply to illustrate my ideas for how the TE could wind up getting the rights back to the films and how they may not end up going back to Zaentz. I have never stated that this would be exactly what will happen with any certainty, but I do believe that this is what TE's lawyers will attempt to argue. This based upon the fact that I feel that TE first priority is a recovery of control over their father's creations as opposed to cash which I do not really think they need.

And yes I do have experience with contracts. I cannot speculate however one what the going rate for an assignment of film rights was in the late 1960's. By today's standards, if you look at what Rowlng got for Harry Potter I would say that it is indeed a very poor contract.


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 11:42pm


Views: 12925
A paper bag?

TongueTongue

LOl Altaira....

an airsickness bag, to be sure.

I feel like one of the Losties, right after crawling out of the plane....

We're stranded on the Island now, and we need to find that water source, quick!
(still have faith it is out there....as long as it doesn't take another 2 yrs to "get off the Island.,...."


overlithe64
Rivendell

Feb 13 2008, 11:45pm


Views: 12917
interesting...thanks

As I said...I'm not a purist by any standard...But when you sell the rights to your work..you kinda lose the right to complain about others interpretation of said works. Personally I didn't like some of the changes made for the film...others I applauded, but it had nothing to do with being a purist...it was just my personal vision clashing with PJs.....

Everyone who reads or watches LOTR is affected by it, not all the same...but affected none-the-less. People interpret based on where they come from, emotionally spiritually ect. I personally watch Frodo board the ship at the havens and cry because I can see him going to find peace and healing before he finally dies....Someone I work with saw him die...I believe Elijah thought the crossing was Frodo's death as well....So intent aside, you cannot stop people from seeing what they will see...or creating what it is they saw as the interpretation.


orcbane
Gondor


Feb 13 2008, 11:46pm


Views: 12936
Go to court, while making the movies.

I feel they should go to court and battle it out there...but go ahead and make the movies now. If the Estate wins the case and big money, NL will have made the $ from proceeds of The Hobbit to pay them, if the Estate case is weak or loses, they do not stop the movies from being made.

I thought Zaentz already sued NL (and won or got a settlement) once before for Lotr. This is Zaentz's 2nd suit I think ?.

An Ent juggling spikey things ?


MrCere
Sr. Staff


Feb 13 2008, 11:49pm


Views: 12938
It seems likely

This part makes it seem likely,
" “I would rather not discuss the films.” She did not find the Black Riders remotely frightening in the film."

I wish there was an exact quote of course but this is really an excellent report. Thanks for sharing it!

The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie


overlithe64
Rivendell

Feb 13 2008, 11:49pm


Views: 12924
thankyou....well met...

thanks...


fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 13 2008, 11:57pm


Views: 12925
Continuing to film while litigation is underway

I do not see this as a possibility. 2 reasons would be that the plaintiffs in this case have asked for the court to halt production while it is in litigation and that the amount required to produce these films is enormous. Too much of a financial risk for the studio to be able to underwrite without knowing first if they will prevail in court.


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 11:59pm


Views: 12916
The issue for me still is...

WHY they are so desperate all of a sudden to get the rights back, after having had a decade to try?

Call me disrespectful, but I DO think the Estate should make unequivocally clear to the global public, once this legal business is over, whether or not they would ever sanction the making of any more films. Are they going to allow the Hobbit to go forward or not? And they'd better have a very good excuse, if they decide no. There's too much at stake. There can't be all this hemming and hawing around, because we are not likely to ever see this divine constellation of artistic talent,that is lining up, for a LONG LONG time. Yes or no? It's not too much to ask. It's the waiting that is agonizing. A straightforward answer I can live with.

And if there's any indication that the answer is no (and at some point they will be hopefully pressured for a reply) they'd better be prepared for a huge public relations problem. Some fans out there might be even more upset than I am.


MrCere
Sr. Staff


Feb 14 2008, 12:00am


Views: 12928
No such film company exists

An independent film financed by really, really rich Tollkienites might be able to do it. Should I start passing around the hat? Angelic

The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie


stormcrow20
Gondor


Feb 14 2008, 12:03am


Views: 12932
You have a point, but

I'm not worried about it, as long as this....(*thinking of a clean word*)....problem is settled in as timely a manner as possible.

Ian McKellen and Christopher Lee are both in good health and still working. Cate Blanchett is Elven enough that she won't show age for quite a while. It's doubtful Andy Serkis' voice will change much, and, well, they can always use CGI and scotch tape on Hugo Weaving.....

"Good Morning!"


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 14 2008, 12:03am


Views: 12954
Huh?

Well, what was PJ supposed to do? Have them "go nuclear" like Galadriel did? This one just baffles me. IMO, they were the most frightening he could have made them and have the films remain PG.
I think that quote was just her finding something nice and polite to complain about. I can think of far worse. (Ainu and Gandalf''s missing spells:)

Edit: for Stormcrow:

After 85, "good health" is relative term. NEVER assume anyone at that age will stay in as good health in 3-6 months. Not everyone can be Strom Thurmond. It's even more relative if this thing stretches on another 2-3+ yrs. You don't want the poor guy wheeled to the set and propped up on a bunch of pillows delivering his lines. At the White Council he should be striding back and forth, turning to face various members there, making vigorous gestures. It ties in artistically to the vigorous man from the Trilogy.

Artistic nitpicking, I know, and I am sure CL would *want* to be wheeled to the set if this was filmed 2010 or 2011.and his health had slowed down. He's so enthusiastc about Tolkine that he's try for the part on his deathbed. But there's a limit


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Feb 14 2008, 12:10am)


ShadoFaxs
Rivendell

Feb 14 2008, 12:03am


Views: 12933
Law suits here, law suits there, law suits everywhere...business as usual...

It's Zaentz's second suit. The first is in arbitration...this one is in relation to that...see above posts.

I think TE's suit is like almost all lawsuits...it's really all about the $$$. The request to the court to assign the rights back to TE is typical of suits, just a stick to beat up on the defendent NL. A VERY big stick. Still, I see mucho legal wrangling before that unlikely scenario would ever happen.

Saul Zaentz is know for being one of the canniest, toughest, smartest people in Hollyweird. I will eat this post if he doesn't have the rights as tightly protected as legal contracts can make them. I would be surprised as heck if TE regains the rights. But they will hopefully get at least some of the moeny owed to them.

But it does IMO make it more likely that TE will get some kind of resolution more quickly than not, because NL is under the gun to make the movies. This sort of thing goes on all the tme.

The question, IMO, is how much pressure will TW bring to bear on NL to get the issues cleaned up to the point production can begin. NL in bankruptcy, NL without the revenues from TH, won't bnefit the plaintiffs.

BTW, I believe there have been several artists who went to war and got their $$ from the studios - James Garner for one, and David Duchovny for another (his to the tune of $20 mil).


fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 14 2008, 12:16am


Views: 12903
Response to Sunflower

Ok Sunflower. I am happy to hear that you do not hate CT and the estate. What I fail to understand is why their motives make any difference. I do not think their has ever been any doubt as to what their motives are, to get what they are contractually owed, 7.5% of the gross and to recover control of their father's works. I think both these motives are very reasonable. The estate has not shown any subterfuge in my opinion or any dishonesty regarding their motives. What they are seeking is part of public record now in the form of a court filing with the superior court in LA.

I believe that your concerns are more related to if the estate recovers the rights to control Tolkien's works that a movie will never be made at all. I actually am of the school of thought that a movie would indeed still get made, however it would be with CT having a great deal of say in any adaptations or changes to the story line. This in my opinion, would be a very good thing, as PJ and his partner Fran took way too many liberties with the script in the LOTR. PJ made a fine movie, no argument there. PJ did not however create the definitive LOTR films. Those are still out there waiting to be made by a better director who will have the proper understanding of and respect for Tolkien's work. (Yes I am an admitted purist and proud of it.)

I think this case is more likely because CT will recognize that pandora's box has been opened, the genie is out of the bottle. FIlms have already been made, whether he likes the idea of his father's works being on film or not. Based upon what I have seen from CT, I think he would rather have his vision of his father's works out there on film as the definitive version as opposed to what we have seen so far.


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 14 2008, 12:21am


Views: 12915
And that's just with NL.

According to Kristen Thompson's blog link to the New Yorker (?) profile of new Warner's CEO Jeff Bewkes, he is already under enormous pressure to bring up Warner's stock price. The quote I remember from that article is someone saying that if they were Jeff Bewkes right now, "IMO, he should shoot himself. " YOu can bet that this came from the planet Zoltar, for Bewkes. The last thing he needed was further litigation that strikes at the heart of his hopes for re-invigorating Warner's.
(I know that seems like a funny word to use, but that's what the article made it seem like.)

An interesting side-note is that HarperCollins is owned by Warner's rival News Corp. Which the article said has recently supplanted Warner's as the worlds biggest media conglom. You don't think that Fox, confident of the TE winning the suit, decided to get in a little additional dig at its rival through HarperCollins?

PS. For Fryguy.

Well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I am a bit famous for being a Skeptic here. This is just one more thing to be VERY skeptical about. But, to each their ownWink . But the new films are not being directed by PJ, nor written either. They should feel more comfortable with Del Toro at the helm.

And in that case, if you start referring to artistic control by the Estate, my post about having a personal "minder" oversee the writing of the script and being on the set would not be offensive. It would indicate what IMO would be an unrealistic level of artistic control that not even Jo Rowling has with the HP films. They have made many changes that she has not been able to stop.


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Feb 14 2008, 12:29am)


ShadoFaxs
Rivendell

Feb 14 2008, 12:32am


Views: 12904
Cuz the estate wants their profit participation,

...and they're fed up with NL's stonewalling and therefore angry enough to ask for more...just to drive the point home doncha know.

BTW, I still suspect those are empty threats. But it does indicate how rancorous the situation is. Remember, the publishers are in this too, everyone's looking for their $$$.

Meanwhile, the estate isn't making any announcements about Hobbit movies because they can't.

The estate doesn' t control the rights to the films - for now at least, and likely for the forseeable future. Those rights still reside with Tolkien Enterprises unless a judge orders otherwise. It would be pure specualtion on their part to make any pronouncements on movies they don't have rights to hold or resell.

I have a web acquaintence who was formerly a Hollywood entertainment lawyer. He frequently posts over at the Patrick O'brien forum so I headed over there just minutes ago to see if "Max Trainer" (a nom de pen) had posted about this topic.

Indeed he had, in answer to a question regarding the suit's mention of 7.5% of gross...FWIW here's what he said:

"The film rights were aquired by UA back in the '60s then sold outright to Tolkien Enterprises (a.k.a Saul Zaentz).
I've looked at enough contracts from that era to say that it is highly unlikely that an author got an uncapped gross points bump. More typical was a set price plus a bump based on a percentage of film budget not income stream. Not impossible, just highly unlikely.

"Saul already had his lawsuit with New Line over his percentage participation. I assure all that Saul will get every dime that is coming to him. But Saul, easily one of the cagier bas**rds in the Biz, didn't have a pure gross deal with New Line. Since we know that ....Saul owned the film rights outright when he began the New Line negotiation I find it very hard to believe that he allowed himself to be placed in a position where he was behind the 30 year old author deal on profit participation.

"QED the author's [JRRT/TE] deal isn't for pure gross but some sort of adjusted or formulae gross aka net.
Hope this wasn't too convoluted. Short of actually reviewing a copy of the agreement it's the best sort of inferential guess I can come up with. "

So there's a guess of the contratural structure from a guy in the biz, or fomerly in the biz. Max thinks this will end with "NL writing a very big check".

Finally, I don't think TE is overly concerned about Hobbit or LOTR movie fan reaction - I've seen very little evidence so far. They are concerned with revenues owed to them, whatever that sum might be, and rightly so.


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 14 2008, 12:36am


Views: 14111
See below....

For my response. Under the post "And that's just with NL"

Sorry, but I prefer to view in Flat mode, but I post in Threaded, and this thread is getting WAY too long and it's starting to be a pain to view Threaded.....the less posts the better:)

BTW, FryGuy, welcome if I haven't said it before! People havedifferent opinions and that's all to the good. My status is that of "Huge 1980's book fan, BUT also PJ admirer though not worshipper, but I AM a Fran and Philppa worshipper, b/c they wrote the best scenes of LOTR." Inother words: Book fan, and NOT film purist.


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Feb 14 2008, 12:42am)


L. Ron Halfelven
Grey Havens


Feb 14 2008, 12:58am


Views: 14089
Someone should file a 'bridge' lawsuit linking the Hobbit and LOTR suits./

 

I don't want to go to work today,
But the master of the whip says nay, nay, nay.


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 14 2008, 1:00am


Views: 14110
A year and a half?????

Well, since you don't care for the films too much, you don't seem concerned about that long a delay.

However, to those of us who care passionately about the films, a year and a half would be shattering. We've already been patient enough since November of 2006. And we've been willing to wait long enough for people like Del Toro to be recruited.

But try to see it from the POV of the film fans. Any delay of longer than 6 months at this point and we certainly lose Del Toro, who is our best hopes for making films with the quality and vision of Fran and Philppa, if not the best of PJ. And we will not get him back. Del Toro is the hottest thing in Hollywood right now, and in addition to having 3 or 4 projects of his own in the pipeline that he had to delay to commit to The Hobbit, he is being fought over by just about every studio in Hollywood to commit to further projects. I'd say he's even hotter property than PJ at the moment.

Which leaves who? Sam Raimi, for a start. PJ is too tied up in projects of his own to tackle this, at least until 2012 or therabouts. And there are those who dread PJ ever coming back to the director's chair.

A year long+ delay only hastens the chance of losing Lee. Whose character is the heart of Film 2. And if you are familiar with the Harry Potter films, you can only appreciate what the addition of Micheal Gambon as Dumbledore has done to the artistic quality of those films. Even people who have gotten used to him by now and even like him, the feeling is universal: he is NOT Dumbledore and this is a HUGE flaw marring the series in uncountable ways.

The available pool of people who can supplant Lee is vanishingly small. Youcan find good visual substitutes but nothing supplants that voice.

I will NEVER forget that they chose to bring this lawsuit on the day before the end of the writer's strike. When all should have been set to go. It's like Nov 2006 all over again, and it will be hard for me to forget.


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Feb 14 2008, 1:05am)


stormcrow20
Gondor


Feb 14 2008, 1:05am


Views: 14119
Health

The words "good health" came from Lee's own mouth, according to this article: click here.
“I still enjoy it and am in pretty good health,” Lee said. “I have a back problem but I’ve had that for years. As long as I’m able to get on the golf course, I’m happy.”

I believe him, as he is the only person who could know for sure.

Of course everyone can't be Strom Thurmond. But if you live to be 85 and are still healthy, as is Mr. Lee, you have a pretty darn good chance of living to be 100 or more. And if Lee happens to be wheelchair bound in a few years as you theorize, but is willing to do his best in the role, and is believable, I'd say go for it, he deserves it.

Yes, I will assume someone at that age will remain in as good health in a mere 3-6 months. Because I certainly will not assume the opposite. I accept that all things are possible, good and bad, but I will not think so negatively.

Believe me, I have seen enough tragedies in my family within my short life, even within the last year, to know that anything, including one's health, can change in an instant. But I will not give in to the mindset, or allow negative thoughts to hang over my head, that something could happen/is going to happen at any moment. I will assume the best, hope for the best, pray for the best, do whatever I can possibly, humanly do, and leave it in the hands of God.

I'm sorry if I seem rude, but your comment hit me between the eyes.

Remember a phrase I mentioned to you a few months back? Constant Resilience.




In Reply To


Replying to: Huh? by Sunflower
-----------------------------
Edit: for Stormcrow:

After 85, "good health" is relative term. NEVER assume anyone at that age will stay in as good health in 3-6 months. Not everyone can be Strom Thurmond. It's even more relative if this thing stretches on another 2-3+ yrs. You don't want the poor guy wheeled to the set and propped up on a bunch of pillows delivering his lines. At the White Council he should be striding back and forth, turning to face various members there, making vigorous gestures. It ties in artistically to the vigorous man from the Trilogy.

Artistic nitpicking, I know, and I am sure CL would *want* to be wheeled to the set if this was filmed 2010 or 2011.and his health had slowed down. He's so enthusiastc about Tolkine that he's try for the part on his deathbed. But there's a limit



"Good Morning!"


fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 14 2008, 1:08am


Views: 14085
Not a big deal to me

I did enjoy the films up to a point. My problem with the films was that he could have made them much closer to perfect had he, Fran and Philippa not butchered the script the way they did. As to Del Toro, I am sure there are many other directors out there just as talented so I am losing no sleep over that either. I do not see any reason to be concerned about Lee as he would have no role whatsoever in a film version of the Hobbit, at leat not as Saruman because Saruman does not appear anywhere in the Hobbit. Putting Saruman in the Hobbit would simply give me another excuse to bash PJ.

Thank you for your welcome by the way:) I can see that you and I do not agree on much, but I am always up for a good debate~


(This post was edited by fryguy34167 on Feb 14 2008, 1:10am)


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 14 2008, 1:10am


Views: 14098
*sigh*

I know, I know, it's just so hard right now.....

My grandpa lived to be 92. He was in great shape at 85, still able to work in the garden, but his eyes started going when he hit 88 or therabouts. He had been born in the Old Country and was healthy as a horse, a real clean liver, etc etc. But there you go.
Ditto the tragedy thing. You have no idea...and right now...

Anyway, I've got to get off here for a while....Tongue


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 14 2008, 1:26am


Views: 14077
They'd never get financing

Studios are completely dependent on outside financing for a movie budget as large as The Hobbit, and no investor would take such a risk to make a movie while a lawsuit is underway. Won't happen.

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.


NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 14 2008, 1:30am


Views: 14091
Not to all of us

Frankly, the longer the delay, the better for me. More of a chance for me to save up money for a NZ premiere trip ;P Of course I don't want either older actor to pass away, but as was stated before, both are healthy. Heck, my grandma is 87 this summer and still walks everyday and goes to old people exercise classes. Considering how healthy he looks on the screen, unless some awful accident occurs, I don't see him passing during filming like the old Dumbledore did (who looked rather ill in the second film, anyhow). And, like Stormcrow, I refuse to dwell on negative "what ifs". I would go mad if I did and lose my oh-so-sensible-persona ;)

My LJ
My art site
Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

(This post was edited by Ainu Laire on Feb 14 2008, 1:33am)


orcbane
Gondor


Feb 14 2008, 2:23am


Views: 14091
Suits against NL trigger US Recession

I made that up of course. They say that truth is stranger then fiction, but I am forever trying anyway. What if NL is not the real target?


Whoops...almost forgot.
Wink

An Ent juggling spikey things ?

(This post was edited by orcbane on Feb 14 2008, 2:25am)


orcbane
Gondor


Feb 14 2008, 2:35am


Views: 14085
Chase card odds

I really like that idea. Almost lawsuits as art, and maybe like a series. Yes, a collectible series of lawsuits. The first 50 copies will be signed by either Paul Zaentz, Christopher Tolkien or Peter jackson at random in the collectible lawsuit trading card series. Chances of finding signed cards are approximately 1: 400 Trillion.

An Ent juggling spikey things ?


mwirkk
Rohan

Feb 14 2008, 3:04am


Views: 14064
What those Guiness boys said...

...BRILLIANT!!!

-mwirkk :)


ArathornJax
Lorien


Feb 14 2008, 3:14am


Views: 14055
Don't Worry Be Happy

I would not be overly worried at this point about the suit. I said this before and will say it again. Money is what this is all about. Money makes the business world go around. Time Warner has been under pressure since 2002. Richard Parsons the previous CEO did a good job handling a mess until his retirement, but he never made major changes to the organization and thus the stock price remained flat.
With Parson's retirement as of Jan. 1 of this year, Jeffrey Bewkes his replacement is under pressure to make the stock price begin to trend upward. To accomplish this, Bewkes has announced some major changes to the organization. AOL online access is now up for sale. The changes with New Line merging into Warner Bros., and the possible selling of it's cable unit. Each of these business units is either very unprofitable for the parent company, or it's business model does not fit with the model that Timer Warner has (i.e. the Cable Unit).
So though $150 million is A LOT of money, for a company of this size, it is not that huge. Time Warner reported for last year an income of 4.39 billion, with revenues of 46.48 billion. My bet is the lawyers will fight it out behind the scenes, with some court appearances occurring, and relatively quickly, the movie will be made.
I think it is also important to understand how business people think. Business people are usually risk takers, at least the ones in power and that is how they get there, by taking risks. Having said that, if a sure thing comes along that will bring profits and revenues with an almost guarantee, you do that. That is what The Hobbit is, a guarantee profit for Time Warner. Though other movies will be made, some are not guaranteed to produce a profit, so in this case, a settlement will be reached and the terms will remain confidential. Look at Zaekes and Peter's own settlements. They are private and have resolved the issues.
As has been stated, TE I believe knew what they were doing with the timing. They feel they are owed, and probably are, but when or IF the original agreement is made public (or someone pays to see the current suit) we won't know what TE is owed. Time Warner may allow sometime to go by before acting (to get concessions from TE) but in the end, money talks, and they'll pay in order to make more money.

The thing that really interests me is what the agreement will be between New Line/Time Warner and the Tolkien Estate. I doubt we'll ever know though.

Let us then be up and doing
With a heart for any fate;
Still achieving, still pursuing,
Learn to labor and to wait.

H.W. Longfellow




Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 14 2008, 4:18am


Views: 14062
Frodo Lives?

Remember that back in the 60's people were supposed to have written 'Frodo Lives' all over walls? Well, maybe not as much as 'Clapton is God', but it was written......

I guess those folks didn't get that going to the Undying Lands didn't keep you alive forever. Perhaps the way folks seem to reinterperet things these days, Frodo DOES live?

BTW, I am a purist; Big surprise there, LOL!
What JRRT says, to me, is FACT........


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 14 2008, 5:30am


Views: 14071
Some words of advice for Shaye (and Lynne)

Just found this in a book I have. One of former Paramount honcho Pater Bart's many great recent books on Hollywood.

From "Who Killed Hollywood (And Put The Tarnish On Tinseltown)", c. 1999, pps. 40-41.

The book is a series of essays he contributed to Variety. He still is a frequent contributor.

"In firing his CEO, Frank Biondi, Edgar Bronfman Jr (of Universal) helped create the ranks of Hollywood's "golden parachute" club--executives who regularily seem to benefit to the tune of tens of millions of dollars from their abrupt dismissals. Biondi's achievement inspired the following commentary in Variety on November 23, 1998.

Fired Up Over Getting Fired

A wave of firings seems to have sept over Hollywood as the holidays draw near, reminding us of the industry's unique take on the Christmas spirit. Not surprisingly, Frank Biondi was this wave's best-known victim.

I say 'not surprisingly' because the 53-yr old Biondi has truly raised the art of getting fired to an art form. The Harvard Business School should require careful study of his exit skills, his civility in accepting dismissal, his generous words for the boss who fired him, and, finally, the consistency with which he extracts extrordinary largess.

Biondi is surely the superstar of the golden parachute set, a man who has turned two firings in three years to a $45-million windfall.

Always self-effacing, Bionadi would be loath to boast of his skills, but were he to create a manual called "How To Get Rich By Getting Canned", I think its guidelines would go something like this:

1)Always recruit your boss, don't let them find you.
2)Be sure you and your new boss are fundamentally incompatible in terms of style and temprment.
3)Work diligently in your initial months to excerbate these difficulties.
4)Encourage your company to deal off that sector of the business that constitutes your principal specialty, thus rendering you irrelevant.
5)Create a public image through press interviews and industry speeches that is respected yet invisible.
'6)Construct an exit strategy focusing on those lavish perks that cannot possibly be withdrawn or rescinded upon termination.
7)Always speak well of your former bosses so that, if necessary, you can make the rounds again....


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Feb 14 2008, 5:34am)


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 14 2008, 6:55am


Views: 14021
Thanks for the link!

That was interesting. Yes, she seems to have seen at least one of the movies. Good Wink

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 14 2008, 7:14am


Views: 14012
IIRC

The young family member who was cast out for approving of the films was Simon Tolkien, Christopher's oldest son from his first marriage. That is why I was rather surprised to see his name listed among those who filed this lawsuit. Either I got something completely wrong or there has changed something.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 14 2008, 11:01am


Views: 14026
Simon Tolkien

Simon Tolkien is still a trustee of the family trust. Therefore he would naturally be listed as a plaintiff in any litigation undertaken by the Tolkien Estate whether he had any part in initiating the litigation or not. For more information on he and his relationship with his father and grandfather you may wish to check out some of the biographical information on his website: http://www.simontolkien.com


Elven
Valinor


Feb 14 2008, 11:26am


Views: 13997
How big a hat do you think we'll need to hold 300 million? ...

I'll start crocheting now Laugh ..


Amy Winehouse acquires Shire retreat for Summer ...


Amy Winehouse sells Shire retreat in Autumn ...


Tolkien was a Capricorn!
The Hobbit!!
Its a Happening Thing!!

Russell Crowe for Beorn

Sauruman: "Do know how the fan girls/boys first came into being? ... they were Tolkien scholars once ... Taken by the Dark Director, tempted to hold moots & dress up like Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves and Wizards ... A ruined & terrible form of life, not to mentions bad grades ... and now perfected at TORN ...
Whom do you serve!"


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 14 2008, 11:49am


Views: 14010
Thanks

Will have a closer look at this website.

Well, I thought in this article back then it was mentioned that Simon was thrown out of the Estate, that's why I was surprised. But I've seen this news only once, and I have no idea how much was true and how trustworthy the website was. So I don't insist Wink

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


overlithe64
Rivendell

Feb 14 2008, 12:16pm


Views: 14059
I was writing in Crayola in the 60s

I do know the history however. Purist or just lover of the story..thats what makes this fandom tick...thrive. If there was no discussion it would be dead. I don't disagree with purists but I have to follow my heart in some instances and that doesn't always agree with dear JRR completely nor do I 100 percent agree with PJ. I have to say however that the more I learn, because, after all, this is a huge learning curve...The more I see what Tolkien was saying and the more I lean that way. Bottom line I love the Tale....I love the way it makes me feel and if I don't agree with everyone in all things...well, it just means there is room for more growth and learning and discussion.

Think of how long our fandom will endure because of the depth of the material, I've been in love with the story for 21 years since that first time I opened the pages and was pulled into Middle Earth. And because of the films I learned so much more because of conversations with kind folks like you...and others who are vastly more knowledgeable than I. Just think how many people who knew nothing prior to the films, who will want to learn.....The work here will never be done, in that alone the differences between film and book are at least justified...for the questions controversy and conversation alone.

Frodo lives...in my heart forever....


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 14 2008, 12:38pm


Views: 13993
Very well said!

I'm rather new to the fandom myself, but I'm always amazed how many details I'm finding through every new reading and how many perspectives one can get to know and appreciate through the discussions with fellow fans.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 14 2008, 2:27pm


Views: 14011
Agreed....

Unless you disagree on the purist part, unless my meaning of a 'purist' is wrong, but let me not belabor that point as I gave my definition of 'purist' before, btwo posts back I think.

I really enjoyed the movies despite finding some things I didn't agree with & a few I couldn't take like 'Sauron the Lighthouse' or "Go home Sam" at the top of the Endless Stair, or Aragorn not wanting to be King whereas in The Books he spends his whole life dedicated to the final task of becoming King, or - you get the point. Yet, I would still consider TLOR one of 'The 100 Greatest Movies Ever' as AFI calls their list (dividing TLOR into 3 films seperate films for this purpose is impossible to me as it is one complete story). So, despite the changes, I must like it alot, huh? Cool

I think it's good that it brings lots of new people into Tolkien's world, but by the threads produced here, we can deduce that the major interest seems to be in the fims & not the books.
People have argued that's because everything about the books has been discussed, but I disagree. I've been reading Tolkien for 31 years & am still finding new things. Conversely, I've seen the films for 5 - 7 years now & know them by heart. There's 13 hours of film in the EE's, but about 5000 - 6000 pages, I would guess, counting all the Essays of new & different material in The Hobbit, TLOR, The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, The Letters Of JRR Tolkien, & the various Volumes of History Of Middle-earh that have unearthed 'valid' writings to the history of Middle-earth (not 'early' stories) in them........

That's a whole lot to read & talk about.


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 14 2008, 3:11pm


Views: 13977
*mods up!*

"I love how it makes me FEEL." That's it in a nutshell. I don't think there are very many people who have the same passion and appreciation for the story who also have the exact same interpretation on every point. That's because the story is personal to each of us. It's incredible that Tolkien was able to write about this true world that is intimate for each of us. Magical. A gift. There's no right or wrong about it :)

Thanks, overlithe64. Your post makes me smile :)






sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Feb 14 2008, 6:57pm


Views: 13966
Boycott

I'm about to say something that might make people very angry with me, and which scares me to say, but I've been recruiting people to boycott New Line until they straighten out their business with the Tolkien family, and to send New Line postcards telling them so. I loved the movies beyond their faults here and there, and it would really hurt me to not go see "The Hobbit", but I owe too much to JRR Tolkien to support those who are cheating his children. Since he died they are the only living people to whom I can express my gratitude. They might well think that they are owed more than they actually are, they might compromise and settle for a lesser amount, but receiving no payments since the initial one is still inexcusable.

To me this looks like a time to decide between what we want and what is right.

(As for Simon Tolkien's involvement, I do hope that this means he and his family have reconciled. If JRR had ever foreseen his book coming between his son and grandson, he would have thrown the unpublished manuscript into the nearest volcano! The whole point of the Silmarillion was that even if a thing is made by one's beloved father, from the purest light of heaven itself, if you value that thing more than people, it inevitably corrupts you.)


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 14 2008, 7:34pm


Views: 13964
Gladly Boycott

I'll gladly boycott New Line and/or any movie studio, because what's out there worth seeing?

I saw 'I Am legend', first movie I saw in 8 months & 3/4 of the way through, I realized it was a remake of a Vincent Price movie I had seen on TCM about 3 months earlier called 'The Last Man On Earth', right down to the flashbacks & vampires, etc.

It seems most of what Hollywood produces these days is sequels & remakes & at $9 a pop, boycotting is fine with me. But, this is why The Hobbit, as an original adaption would be so refreshing, not only to us Tolkien fans but to the public in general. How many Matt Bourne flicks or 'Ocean's 69' or whatever number they're up to now can you take?

On the subject of 'the book', I'd like to know more about the son & grandson, I've heard about a tift but don't know details. It is interesting however, to note that no new storyline or information came out in 'The Children Of Hurin'. I have been reading that story as laid down in that book for 25 years since 'Unfinished Tales' came out. All one has to do is go from UT to The Silmarillion to UT's Footnotes back to UT to The Silm (whatever) & the whole story is there. 'The Children' just resifted it into one straight line. And this caused a family fued?


Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Feb 14 2008, 7:42pm


Views: 12903
Is a book adaptation any different than a remake?

I don't mean to hijack the thread (which has already been plenty hijacked), but I just have to ask, on the subject of Hollywood being unoriginal, is a book adaptation really any different that a remake of an older movie? The Bourne series and I Am Legend were both book adaptations and, of course, the Ocean's 11-13 were based on a remake of an earlier Ocean's 11. Are either of them really that original?

I'm with you, though, in that I tend to boycott New Line by default. If they ever manage to make another movie I want to see, I'll give them my money. Until them, they're going to have to work a little harder to get my interest.



My LiveJournal
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February's Screencap of the Day Schedule


Zmulady
Rohan

Feb 14 2008, 7:45pm


Views: 12898
Why hasn't New Line paid?

Does anyone know why New Line hasn't paid up?


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 14 2008, 8:02pm


Views: 12899
No anger here :)

And I agree with you on the principle of New Line doing what's right for the Tolkien family; but for me I'd not be able to promise a boycott of The Hobbit and its sequel. The argument is with New Line, yes... but I see these films as Jackson's and not New Lines. IF they lose the rights to the film(s), the same project will just move on to another company with Jackson still at the helm, and the quarrel with NL would be null and void.

Until the dust is settled and the films are in production, I'll watch and see how this all unfolds.

I am a passionate fan of Tolkien's works, and completely agree that honouring his family and their rights to have their contract with New Line fulfilled is paramount. That is what the courts are pursuing... and the Estate seems content to take that avenue to find satisfaction or they wouldn't have waited so long before pursuing it. I understand 99% of that is because they were waiting for NL to start drooling for $ from these next 2 films for the greatest impact; but I'm just getting over years of enduring several horrible threats against these films being completed... and I don't have the strength to risk my heart being broken over this yet again.

For today, I'll wait to see what happens. I cannot walk away from my dream the way things stand right now.

I appreciate you passion and your loyalty... sincerely. When the beacons are lit, I'll make a choice.







sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 14 2008, 8:20pm


Views: 12882
It's probably a disagreement

over the definition of "profits", which in Hollywood accounting is whatever a particular party wants it to be. New Line will probably say that all parties have been paid what they are owed. If they didn't pay the Estate directly, I'm fairly sure New Line will claim that some middle party (the Weinsteins, or maybe Zaentz) are responsible for paying the Estate.

I seriously doubt that New Line is refusing to pay - it's most likely the disagreement is over the amount that was paid/should be paid.

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.


NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 14 2008, 8:52pm


Views: 12865
Different

I would say a book adaptation is different....

Gone With the Wind, The Wizard of Oz, The Godfather, Jaws, Grapes Of Wrath, all book adaptations.
So was TLOR, so I wouldn't say TTT or ROTK were sequels.
I guess the Bourne series is too - good point, but I was saying 'same ole, same ole - How many times can you go to the same well & expect to get folks in the seats & be original?

'I Am legend' is a book? Well, they stole it virtually verbatim from 'The Last Man On Earth' made in 1964 I believe, starring Vincent Price, let me tell you - a disease wipes out just about everone; Price goes about during the day 'killing' vampires made from the disease; Flashbacks show how Price was a scientist who fought the disease & lost his family....

Sound familure?
Sure did to me as I watched 'I Am legend'. Unsure


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Feb 14 2008, 8:52pm


Views: 12877
*sticks NARF tag on Ainu Laire*

Welcome to the club :-)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 14 2008, 8:55pm


Views: 12885
Why?

Why hasn't New Line paid up?

I would guess the reason is the same as with PJ:

The Almighty $$$$$.


overlithe64
Rivendell

Feb 14 2008, 10:26pm


Views: 12866
my own personal boycott

I've not seen another NL film since.....I can't remember when...because in general I hate their film choices. TLOR being the exception to the rule of the crap they generally produce. When the ugly business came to light with PJ I stopped buying anything related and licensed by NL including my beloved Weta statues. I jsut can't give them any more of my hard earned money....It is a bitter pill that such greedy orcs are in control of my preciousss.


overlithe64
Rivendell

Feb 14 2008, 10:41pm


Views: 12887
As I understand it

 reading between the lines....and from what we know from PJs situation....NL self-righteous as they may be, believe they have paid. The issue is contractually I believe the amount paid out is a percentage. So if NL has not been straightforward with their numbers; than the percentages are also "off". Their refusal to open their books to private audit is enough proof to me that there has been some slight of hand as far as profits go. (remember its the films, marketing, anything licensed by them creates revenue...how much of that is also subject to that percentage agreement, who knows? )

Using that line of reasoning everyone has been under paid based on a potentially false bottom line. The beauty is that they could completely lose their rights to the Hobbit....divine justice if you ask me...so they refuse to ante up....and they lose in the end...they are now in a fight to stay alive again, right back where they started before the Tolkien fandom bailed them out of their financial hole and placed them in a very nice hobbit hole.....It irritates me to no end when I think how much of my own money is involved in that Cache. ( not that I go back and not see the films 20 odd times each, or buy all the stuff I have or not go to the cons.....but still)


(This post was edited by overlithe64 on Feb 14 2008, 10:43pm)


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 14 2008, 10:42pm


Views: 12862
Whoa! Sorry for the big pic!

Admins... feel free to delete this! WOW! Photobucket! What the heck are ya doin!?




sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


MrCere
Sr. Staff


Feb 15 2008, 12:08am


Views: 12865
Angry?

A few here were very vocal about boycotting New Line when they were in dispute with Jackson. I think there wouldn't be much anger at all if you boycott NL for its conflict with the Tolkien estate.

However, New Line's real concerns have a lot more to do with its bosses getting let go and trying to make a movie that enough people want to see so it can pay its bills.

The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 15 2008, 1:01am


Views: 12853
Wiat a minute!

I *knew * there was something familiar with I AM Legend. TLMOE, wasn't that an award-winning film from NZ, a couple yrs ago?

WHY are Hayao Miazaki films apparently the only things that reach American shores intact? Stupid Hollywood, that still thinks it can make something superior.; I am still dying to find a copy of the origional German The Sound Of Music, which is still hugely popular there. Apparently, our version is an almost shot-for-shot of the German origional (except for the songs and Nazi subplot of course.) Right down to the whistle summoning the marching kids into the room...

As to a Family tiff over Children of Hurin.,..... didn't know about that! More details please? I thought the only thing they were in disagreement about was the films.


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 15 2008, 1:48am


Views: 12835
Last Man On Earth

'The Last Man On Earth' was on Turner Classic Movies back in October I believe, on those Friday 2AM 'Underground' movie shows they have. They often show Vincent Price on those, so I'm sure it will come up again.
It in no way came from New Zealand, although a picture from there could certainly have that title.

The Vincent Price picture is from 1964 I seem to recall & is Black & White. It is set in L.A. where he is - duh, TF, the last man on earth who has not suscumbed to a disease, much like Will Smith in 'Legend'.
Like Smith, he's harassed by vampire-like creatures that only come out at night. And like 'Legend', the film shows flashbacks of Price the scientist fighting the disease as it takes over the world & kills his family.
It's just so similar to 'Legend' to not have inspired it.
There's some differences, mostly in the end, & it's quite entertaining.

To me, it just shows how uninspired Hollywood is these days.
Honestly, as much as I've picked on 'Rings' at times, I can't think of anything I'd call epic since ROTK except 'Revenge of the Sith' & that is so dark & depressing, it's hardly 'fun' to want to watch - yet an esential part of the Star Wars story & kudos to George Lucas for having the guts to do it right.

Still, 'Sith' was 2005 & that's one movie in 5 years.

The other issue I have is that the star of movies nowadays is often the special effects, not actors. This has been a common complaint of many, & I just picked up on it & agree wholeheartedly.
Long gone are the days of great actors like Bogart, Cary Grant, Claude Rains Jimmy Stewart & Spencer Tracey.

Heck, even this generation's great ones like Deniro, Pacino, Nicholson & Hoffman are pushing 70.......

When they're gone, forget it. Unsure


silneldor
Half-elven


Feb 15 2008, 3:34am


Views: 12851
You are perfect to fit in around here you know:).

I think you have a perfect sense of what is.
You feel the wonder and awe as to the depth of Tolkien. For the lot of us here, if i am permitted to say, Tollers (affectionate name of fellow colleagues at the university) is our essential 'ground of being' :). Anyone is welcome to disagree of course. *hides Bill Ferny look-alike apple nurfball behind back*.

"Tolkien, like Lewis, believed that, through story, the real world would become a more magical place, full of meaning. We see its patterns and colors in a fresh way. The recovery of a true view of the world applies both to individual things, like hills and stones, and to the cosmic - the depths of space and time itself. For in sub-creation, in Tolkien's view, there is a "survey" of space and time. Reality is captured on a miniature scale. Through stories like The Lord of the Rings, a renewed view of things is given, illuminating the homely, the spiritial, the physical, and the moral dimensions of the world."

Tolkien and C.S. Lewis- The Gift of Friendship -Duriez


May the grace of Manwë let us soar with eagle's wings!

In the air, among the clouds in the sky
Here is where the birds of Manwe fly
Looking at the land, and the water that flows
The true beauty of earth shows
With the stars of Varda lighting my way
In all the realms this is where I stay
In the realm of Manwë Súlimo
By El~Cugu

From the website: 'The Realm of Manwe'








stormcrow20
Gondor


Feb 15 2008, 5:28am


Views: 12846
The Books

Yes, the "Main" and "Movie" boards mostly are about the films, although Main does have regularly appearing posts that concern the book (Bilbo's Brainteasers, TIME, Middle-earth Conspiracy Theories). If I recall correctly, in some of the very threads you mention, you have been told about the "Reading Room", where Tolkien's books are the permanent topic. In fact, there is a discussion on LotR going on right now. Currently they are reading and discussing "The Ring Goes South".

Have you visited that board yet? Here is the link: Reading Room

Many people here on this forum have been reading Tolkien as long as you have, some longer, some even annually. And, I expect, we are all still discovering new things in the worlds of Tolkien, from each reading and/or from discussions here. Smile



In Reply To

I think it's good that it brings lots of new people into Tolkien's world, but by the threads produced here, we can deduce that the major interest seems to be in the fims & not the books.
People have argued that's because everything about the books has been discussed, but I disagree. I've been reading Tolkien for 31 years & am still finding new things.



"Good Morning!"


elentari3018
Rohan


Feb 15 2008, 5:40am


Views: 12829
Nicely said!


Quote
Frodo lives...in my heart forever....

I'm a fairly new fan being pulled in with the movies but have read everything by and about Tolkien since '02 but Frodo Lives is my slogan in life now. :)
There is so much more to explore all the time, always and this new fandom is so exciting for me!HeartHeartHeartHeartHeartHeart

"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo

"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 15 2008, 5:46am


Views: 12834
Aware

I don't know....

I found those reading room discussions so standard, you know? They're basically commentaries about what they're reading,, where I tend to go off on theories I guess - where's the 'roll's eyes' icon here? Wink

(for myself that is)

I saw the Conspiracy thread once or twice, but couldn't make heads or tails out of it & thought it was a joke. Maybe I should check it more often for substance?

I have a few thoughts of my own to start a couple threads, but as a parent, don't know if it's the right time to spend alot of time online right now so I may hold those thoughts awhile.......


CAhobbit
Rohan


Feb 15 2008, 5:56am


Views: 12825
You should dive....

into the reading more methinks. Yes there are posts that are more 'standard' as you put it but there are theories brought up all the time over there. And of course you jumping in with your own theories is always more then welcome on that board (nothing and no one is stopping you from joining in). Have at it I say.

Do not meddle in the affairs of hobbits for we can bite your kneecaps off!



CAhobbit's flickr page

CAhobbit's myspace


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 15 2008, 6:10am


Views: 12826
The conspiracy thread

is a joke :) I honestly do not know where it came from, but it's been around for years... you just try and come with the most ridiculous excuse possible for "the real reason" something happened. When puns get involved, the thread just dives into absolutely horrible puns :P

As for a thread, I wouldn't be afraid to start one; you don't have to be online all the time when you start a thread, maybe just check it once or twice a day (if, of course, you have the time).

My LJ
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stormcrow20
Gondor


Feb 15 2008, 6:13am


Views: 12824
Jokes and theories

The Conspiracy thread is indeed a joke. The point is to come up with a humorous response to the idea presented. It's a lot of fun.

I have not participated in the RR book discussions myself, I was just aware of them, so I cannot comment on their quality. There have been numerous threads on theories there in the past, I guess the book discussions are keeping everyone busy at this time.

If you have ideas for threads for the RR, go for it!
And, if you are short on time, perhaps you could spend your online time presenting and exploring your theories on the books, rather than discussing this crazy situation surrounding The Hobbit. I'll bet it would be more fun, at least. Wink

"Good Morning!"


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 15 2008, 6:32am


Views: 12816
Blame Corsair of Umbar.


In Reply To
I honestly do not know where it came from, but it's been around for years...

I was reading through the TORN Humor Files a few years ago and saw a conspiracy thread that Corsair had inadvertantly started - asking about the scratch on Arwen's cheek and how it might have got there. (This was before FOTR was released.) Other TORNadoes ran away with the idea and came up with some right oddball answers ... and I thought it would make for a good regular piece of lunacy on the boards. It been going for about two and a half years now, believe it or not...

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Feb 15 2008, 7:05am


Views: 12828
I . . . won't boycott the hobbit film. I cannot, I am sorry

I might se it only once if I find Gandalf's magic mostly gone missing again, I might boycott the bridge if I find out it is an all Aragorn all the time movie that doesn't really bridge anything. But. . . not the Hobbit itself.

I am entirely with Sunflower on that. Desperate to see it, and sooner than later. A date has been stamped in my heart. Better that they said nothing than to give false hope.

Yet, I agree that it will probably still be settled sooner than later. TW/NL was willing to pay Peter 40 million just to keep him involved, and you know it wasn't because they loved Peter too much, or laboured under the notion that no one else could manage a good adaptation. . . it was because they feared that either Saul would hold things up somehow, or that many fans would be upset and possibly not for over their billions. Now they stand to loose the rights if they don't settle up and soon? They will pay that 150 to 200 million. And maybe, as a bonus, they will give Christopher the right to have some input in the filming process. Not the final say, of course, but at least the option of coming on set, of seeing the scripts before filming begins, and of offering insights and criticisms. It could make a big difference. Could insure that we Get the appropriate amount of blue'flame "eye-openers" from old Gandalf. Wink

But they are not going to let it slip away. If they have to pay an added 200 million now, bringing the total film cost to about 400 million, but with an almost sure gauruntee of a 2 billion plus dollar return in ticket sales alone, and an additional several billion from dvd sales. . . they will pull things together, and soon. Consider the stocks. Bewkes wants to drive up share prices, and rumour feuls that as much as sales. If TW looses the rights to the most major thing they have in THe Film department, even bigger than the Harry Potter Films (which have sold less not more with each film, in direct contrast to how the LOTR films did), share prices dive for certain. The Moment the Hobbit becomes a definite, with named Producer and script in motion, and a release date in the near future (i.e. at least by 2011), the share prices go up. Period. The company starts making money on the probabiltiy of making money. I cannot see them letting that just slip away.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Feb 15 2008, 7:08am


Views: 12807
It seems to me



(This post was edited by Eowyn of Penns Woods on Feb 15 2008, 7:18am)


Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Feb 15 2008, 7:21am


Views: 12789
Well, that was an interesting experience in board glitches before it timed out. //

 

************************************


Starling
Half-elven


Feb 15 2008, 8:34am


Views: 12807
'The Quiet Earth'

is a 'last man standing' film which was made in NZ in 1985, starring the wonderful Bruno Lawrence. The main character meets up with two others, and then I think it takes on some kind of nuclear threat theme, but I haven't seen it for years, so can't remember exactly. It's quite eerie and worth a look.
Incidentally, it's directed by Geoff Murphy, he of the burning chair LOTR fame.Cool


fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 15 2008, 9:49am


Views: 12565
Settlement Possibilities

You are assuming here that money will be enough to get the Tolkien estate to settle. I am not so sure about that. The estate does not in fact have to settle. They seem to be in a strong enough position to slam the door on any film production by New Line. That does not mean that someone won't make this film, but I do not believe that it will be New Line. I think New Line is on life support right now and this may be the pulling of the plug that we are witnessing.


Windfola
The Shire


Feb 15 2008, 10:22am


Views: 12546
yup, that's what I'm thinking


Quote
That does not mean that someone won't make this film, but I do not believe that it will be New Line.


Saul Zaentz and MGM will still have the rights to the movie, even if NL loses them.

To be honest I hope good things will come out of this whole situation (at least good in my opinion)

-eventually the second movie will never get made, you know, I'm not really a purist, I like fanfiction, it could be quite an interesting film... but do I really need or want to see it : NO

-it will be the end of NL and a warning sign for other studios.

-the delay will put Jackson back in the director's chair

-the "Hobbit" could finally be done without the burden of constant money talk and lawsuits.


(This post was edited by Windfola on Feb 15 2008, 10:30am)


fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 15 2008, 10:36am


Views: 12546
Time will tell

I am still not so sure that the film rights will revert to Zaentz and MGM yet either. I am curious to see the actual complaint filed and will try to get my hands on it sometime in the next week. I do in fact think that the movie will eventually get made. I for one, however, hope that PJ and Fran have absolutely nothing to do with it. Well I would have no problem with PJ and Fran making the film IF Christopher Tolkien were there to keep them honest and stop them from making any more ill-advised changes to Tolkien's stories. I realize that with all the PJ and Fran fanboys and girls here I will likely take a lot of flak, but I think they did a terrible job with the script and story with the LOTR movies. Other things I though were truly well done but I do not think that they would be the best to film the Hobbit. Others out there are much more capable of making a good film that would stay true to Tolkien's vision. Just my opinion.

To clarify, I think Peter Jackson did some things amazingly well and some things very poorly. That is what frustrates me about these films so much. He could have made the perfect and definitive for all time LOTR films. Instead he made films that in some ways did a wonderful job of capturing the spirit of middle earth and in other ways completely went off the deep end and changed the story in a very negative and unnecessary way.


(This post was edited by fryguy34167 on Feb 15 2008, 10:44am)


Windfola
The Shire


Feb 15 2008, 10:52am


Views: 12531
I read something

on a different message board that the complaint is "without prejudice to the rights of innocent parties" or something like that, I'm not a lawyer.. , so I can only base my opinion on what I read on the internet.. Tongue


Quote
I for one, however, hope that PJ and Fran have absolutely nothing to do with it. Well I would have no problem with PJ and Fran making the film IF Christopher Tolkien were there to keep them honest and stop them from making any more ill-advised changes to Tolkien's stories.

Oh please the last thing any filmmaker needs while working on this movie is Ch. Tolkien breathing down his neck.. Tongue


fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 15 2008, 11:00am


Views: 12533
well not in this case

PJ and Fran obviously need someone breathing down their necks. Otherwise we might be subjected to more of Liv Tyler, Frodo trying to send Sam home, a week-kneed Aragorn who doesn't want to be king, elves showing up at Helm's Deep and a sword that was supposed to be carried around by one of the main characters for his entire adult life not showing up in his hands until just before he enters the paths of the dead.


Windfola
The Shire


Feb 15 2008, 11:19am


Views: 12526
Well you can’t make everyone happy..

I actually really like those changes you mentioned (especially elves at Helms Deep and a more humble Aragorn), as opposed to some other changes (Gandalf hitting Denethor with his staff is were my inner purist started to scream Crazy )…

btw... I’m all for changes in the Hobbit (as long as it’s still a tale for children with dark moments and undertones and not a flat out dark and grim movie) But the bridge movie is when my revisionism stops, that’s why I’m hoping it never gets made.


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 15 2008, 12:30pm


Views: 12506
CT involved

The more I read from you the more I get the feeling that you would only be happy with a movie directed by Christopher Tolkien himself and the book filmed word by word. Only I think it would not be a good movie, because that is not how movies work - and you might be surprised because even *that * may not meet your expectations, because *everyone* has his own opinions and images. One of the reasons LotR is so successful is just that every reader has these own images and POVs on everything, and no matter whoever is making the movie in the end, you will never be happy with everything.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 15 2008, 12:34pm


Views: 12526
What Scar?

Arwen has a scar on her cheek?

My first thought is that it came from hitting a branch while running through the woods that suddenly pop up while she & Frodo are escaping the Black Riders.......

"If you want him, come and claim him!"

"But I forgot the bagagge claim ticket at Minas Morgul."

Woosh.......

(sound of water sweeping Black Riders and horses away..........) Shocked


fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 15 2008, 1:36pm


Views: 12492
Actually

Actually I would be happy if CT were not involved as long as someone actually did a good job with the story and script. PJ and Fran, unfortunately did not do a good job with that. That is my only real complaint about the LOTR films, although it is a rather large complaint. I would assume that all of us who had read the books while growing up were desperately hoping for the LOTR to be made into a movie. I admit to being one of those, This does not however, mean that I am so greatful that it was made into a movie that I am willing to overlook the glaring mistakes made by the film makers. All I really wanted from the LOTR films was for them to be true to Tolkien's story and vision. These films, unfortunately, strayed greatly from that, and it left many fans of the book unsatisfied.


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 15 2008, 2:14pm


Views: 12502
Oh well

You didn't like the films made by PJ. Okay. Your own problem. BUT I think if anyone other would have made them, they would have been made in Hollywood in typical Hollywood style and even more changed than what we got to see. And there would have been no Weta, nor the thousands of hand-made props, but re-use of things made for other movies ... And frankly, I'd never watched them at all.

FYI, I was not happy with some of the changes myself at all, but I can live with them, because the movies on the whole were great. I had expected much worse, as most films I watched made after books I know were much more changed - I remember watching a film and not recognising the story, though I had read the book only weeks before. Considering what a complicated story LotR is, I was truly amazed how few changes they made. I really never expected them to stay true to the book.

But of course, I am able to enjoy book and movies as two different things, and just have started another re-read of the book, this time with more of an eye for differences to the movie and appreciating *both* ways.

But I know we will never agree about this.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 15 2008, 2:27pm


Views: 12492
Its all good

Its all good. We do not need to agree on this and I am happy that the movies mean so much to you. Anything that gives good people joy is something I can find happiness in. Lets just say I love the books and have a love hate relationship with the films. I will agree with you and most of the fans that the acting, the scenery and the props were wonderful. The place where I end up disagreeing with most of the film fans is with regard to the changes to the story made in the script that I feel hurt the film's overall impact.


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 15 2008, 4:04pm


Views: 12480
*grin*

Love hate relationship seems to fit pretty well Wink

Glad to know you agree at least with scenery and props, as they're really great and Weta did work so hard on the props. We can agree to agree on that and to disagree mostly on the changes Smile

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


bettybalin
The Shire

Feb 15 2008, 4:42pm


Views: 12479
I am Legend, revealed!

Err... both movies are based on the same book, written in 1954. So, no, the book didn't steal the plot from the movie, nor the Will Smith movie steal the plot from the Vincent Price movie. It's just a remake

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_Legend_(film)

I've read the book (novella, really), and didn't care for it much, but it WAS groundbreaking for it's time. I really liked the plot and the concepts raised, but the writing style irked me.


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 15 2008, 4:56pm


Views: 12508
The 'Crux of the Buiscuit'

... as Frank Zappa once said, is that, as you say, Peredhil Lover, that Peter Jackson does a better job than anyone else would've done......

How do we know that?
Did anyone else get a chance?

I've been killed for 'bashing' PJ, so let me state right off: I like the films; I consider it (one long film) in my 'hundred greatest fims ever'. However, we must see if we are even somewhat objective that PJ took great liberties with both the storyline & the 'essence' of Tolkien's character's from the Books, agreed?
If you disagree with that statement, I can get out my laundry list........

I certainly realize that a movie cannot follow a book verbatim, but changing characters wholesale to fit the '90's instead of being noble and/or Christlike (in some cases) isn't necessary either & I think this is what turned off many hardcore Tolkien fans that dislike (or even like) the movies.

But saying that PJ is 'the only man for the films who can do them right' is silly to many of us.......

There are so many great directors out there:
George Lucas not only directed Star Wars, he created it.
Steven Speilberg's record speaks for himself - Jaws, Saving Private Ryan, Schindler's List, ET (if you like that), etc.
The two of them did Raiders of the Lost Arc together......

To think either of these guys couldn't do justice to The Hobbit is, well, not looking fairly at their careers, now is it?


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 15 2008, 5:15pm


Views: 12465
I Am legend Book

That's interesting about the book - you learn something new every day....

However, it still 'reeks' of remake, ya know?


Annael
Immortal


Feb 15 2008, 5:59pm


Views: 12461
you mean you haven't yet encountered

UUTs?

Utterly Unsupported Theories - a staple of TORN discussions. If you've got some, by all means trot them out!

Have you checked out http://www.theonering.com/ ? I wonder if you might not be happier on that board than here.


Only the mediocre are always at their best.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 15 2008, 6:07pm


Views: 12459
Not scar - scratch.

And yes, it's the cut on her cheek from a branch when she's riding Asfaloth.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Feb 15 2008, 6:14pm


Views: 12453
Just what I was saying! Well, before my post was et... =) //



Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 15 2008, 6:36pm


Views: 12454
Oh please

In the post you answered to, I said that I don't agree with certain changes as well, but it simply doesn't matter enough to me to go nuts about it, because the rest of the movies makes up for it IMO. Does that suffice?

You didn't completely understand what I meant anyway, or probably I wasn't clear enough. It may be another director would have done a good job, too - we'll never know. My train of thought above was more that, if someone other than PJ had made LotR, the movies would not have been made in NZ and not by Weta, but by some Hollywood studio, and I simply doubt they'd gone to such lengths with costumes and props - and THAT is why I am so glad PJ got the job. No other big studio would have hired Weta for the job prior to their success with LotR.

As for Lucas and Star Wars, that's not the best example. Lucas did neither the screenplay nor the directing for 'The Empire Strikes Back' and 'Return of the Jedi'. He only wrote the story, like Tolkien. Look at imdb for it. And though the original three movies were among the few I saw and loved, I never got to more than glimpses of the prequels before losing interest completely. The bit I saw seemed rather weak. And I know a lot of people who felt the same, so it was not only my disinterest in most movies.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Feb 15 2008, 6:42pm


Views: 12441
It's worse than you think

I Am Legend was also adapted for a Charleton Heston movie called The Omega Man in 1971. IMDB also shows a short movie called Soy leyenda adapted from it in 1967. I've only seen the most recent adaptation (and can tell you it's only loosly based on the book). But which movie/book is it remaking?



My LiveJournal
My Costuming Site
February's Screencap of the Day Schedule


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 15 2008, 7:06pm


Views: 12436
Scratch

That was a good guess that it was from riding with Frodo...... Cool

BTW: I still think George Lucas deserves Kudos for coming up with the idea for Star Wars....

It's quite a story over 6 films despite people's likes or dislikes of the prequels. Fall & redemption, just like Man......

And, if you are old enough to remember 'Star Wars' before it was called 'IV: A New hope', that was something, let me tell you, nobody had ever seen anything like it in terms of special effects - we were used to 'Lost In Space' & 'Star Trek' on TV.......

I saw it a couple weeks after it came out in a nearly empty theatre on a weekday afternoon.
It still ranks up there with the greatest films ever IMHO.
To just see the whole story through to completion is something if you ask me.
I personally think 'Return of the Jedi' is every bit as silly as 'The Phanton Menace'. Is Jar-Jar binks any dumber an idea than the Ewoks?
'Attack of the Clones' is quite entertaining & a good mystery to boot. 'Sith' is so dark that it's not fun to watch, but a good film. I understand that the whole Annikan/Padme love affair is full of laughable, cheesey lines, but the 'OT' has it's share of cheesey lines too.

I better stop going on about Star Wars or go turn back into Obi-Gyn Kenobi at the Star Wars site..... Wink


Annael
Immortal


Feb 15 2008, 11:13pm


Views: 12421
oh, there's plenty of us who remember

we've got quite a contingent of over-50-somethings here.

I don't worship Lucas like you do, but yes, "Star Wars" was a quantum leap ahead in film-making at the time. Those of us who saw it in the theater first-run had an experience that can only be compared to, perhaps, seeing the first "talkie", or my mother's experience of going to see "The Wizard of Oz" and gasping at the moment Dorothy opens the door in Oz and walks out into color.


Only the mediocre are always at their best.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Eleventy1
Registered User

Feb 15 2008, 11:54pm


Views: 12427
I have to say ....

Thank goodness George Lucas had nothing to do with these movies. He's already mentioned if he did Lotr, he would've done everything CG. Spooky!

It tough realising there are going to be further delays in producing The Hobbit. I'm with whoever mentioned earlier that if the rights revert back to CT, The Hobbit movie will never see the light of day. I don't see that he's done anything to make me believe otherwise. Maybe Jackson didn't get it right all of the time with Lotr but he got it right often enough that people fell in love with the story and life was injected back into these books sending sales through the proverbial roof and ultimately one would've thought that is what Toklien Estate would want ....


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 16 2008, 12:05am


Views: 12423
Worship

Boy, I 'worship' George Lucas?

Let me tell you I got killed for saying that some 'fans' of Peter Jackson, the types that post here that he & only he can make the Hobbit or it will stink, or rant & rave if you say ONE bad word about TLOR films, etc, that those types were 'PJ worshipers' - so I say I like Star Wars & now I'm a George Lucas worshiper?

I guess I should be offended too? Wink

Well, I'm not - I think it's funny.
Too bad I wasn't given the same grace when I expressed my opinions regardless of how some people preceived them. Unsure

But listen, we've been over this & I don't want to go back, I just find it ironic I'm called a 'worshiper', the very term that got ME in such hot water here 2 weeks back........

But, like I said, I'm not the least bit offended by ANY of this - being called a 'Lucas Worshipper' or people's reactions & I think it's all too trivial in the scope of life for me to be bothered getting angry about.

BTW: I'm not that crazy about Lucas.......

I think the 'Indiana Jones' series is somewhat over-rated.
First one's very good, but a silly ending (anyone who knows anything about the Arc of the Covenant knows The God of Isreal would never come out like a ghost. In fact, the only time folks were killed by it were by touching it in an irreverant manor when it was closed), 2nd one forget, third one's good - my $.02 of course.

PS: Please don't think I'm trying to start a flame war. I'm not. I just find it highly ironic, that's all.


Starling
Half-elven


Feb 16 2008, 1:09am


Views: 12434
Excuse my ignorance, but what is NARF?

I can't find any reference to it is my TORn educational reference materials Unsure


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 16 2008, 2:11am


Views: 13612
Narf

A narf is Not A Real Fan. Essentially (IIRC), it's a person who has read The Lord of the Rings before the films came out and have not totally embraced all there is about Peter Jackson and his adaptations. I hope I've got it right. I've never been accused of being one ;) Any Narfs out there to help me out about now?

Here's a little diddy that Darkstone penned on November 2006 to describe this most worthy title:


From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remember'd;
We few, we narfy few, we band of brothers (and sisters);
For he (and she) that reads LOTR
Shall be my brother (or sister); be he (or she) ne'er so vile,
That act shall gentle his (or her) condition:
And gentlemen (and gentlewomen) now reading Harry Potter
Shall think themselves accursed they were not there,
And hold their narfhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That read LOTR before Jackson's films.


If you want to see the whole, old thread from our beloved/retired boards, follow
this 11/2006 link I've gotten Darkstone's masterpiece from. It talks about Narfs, Foxes, and how people feel about some guy named Jackson directing The Hobbit ;)




sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 16 2008, 2:15am


Views: 13621
GMTA!

I'd just located that verse of Darkstone's for Starling, and also found this from Annael.

I do love the "Search" feature on these new Boards!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 16 2008, 2:30am


Views: 13604
Almost

Many of us were accused of being NARF because we DID support the movies, even though we had read the books first. Because, of course, only REAL FANS would know that the books are everything, and the movies were a desecration. And of course REAL FANS were the ones who read the books oh-so-long ago, and anyone who liked the movies couldn't possibly have read the books first.

Some of us proudly bear the label of NARF. We're OK with being NARF.


So gramma, it pains me to tell you, but you are NARF.

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.


NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 16 2008, 4:11am


Views: 13594
What!? *dances on table* I've been dubbed!

One, two, cha-cha-cha
One, two, cha-cha-cha

I'm a NARF?
NARF-a-roonie
The NARF-meister
NARF-a-holic
NARF-a-doodle-doooooo!

I feel so... unworthy.

*snert*

Where the heck have I been!?

*eyes entmaiden* Don't answer that. You know too much about me.




sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 16 2008, 5:00am


Views: 13573
*evil grin*:)

I have been reading this argument with great interest...thanks PeredhilEvil

May I quote Kristen Thompson on pg 51 of The Frodo Franchise:

"Some lovers of the novel, especially within the world of academic literary criticism, have charged the adaptation with betraying the spirit of Tolkien's work. Even thosse most disappointed by the narrative, however, inevitably praise its design. David Bratman's elaborate and erudite critique sums up this attitude...'Each year as I sat in the theatre, I felt as if I were seeing two films at once: one in the visuals, that were faithful and true to Tolkien, and another in the script and general tone and style, which was so unfaithful as to be a travesty." Bratman and others seem not to realize that only a mammoth audience, most of them unfamiliar with the books, would suffice to pay for the epic, detailed design they so admire."

I will politely refrain from "Masterpiece Theater" comments....though MT is great at times,,when they're good, they're really really good....
FYI, FryGuy, NE Brigand, who is in the Reading ROom but ventures out once in a while to the Main and Movie boards, is a huge book purist too. In fact, he has admitted to me that he has seen the films in the theater only once each, and to this day he STILL has not seen the EE's. I say this to let you know that we are not a bunch of PJ-worshippersSly. I mean, we have some good old REAL prists holding the fort here, and we all enjoy sparring! This is the most fun thread I've been in for quite a while, (and it is one of the longest in months, and thank you for your contribution to it! I enjoy it, I really doLaugh


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 16 2008, 5:12am


Views: 13603
So wait a minute. I'm confused.

I thought NARF was reserved for the members of the "Deplorable Cultus" (that is, Boomer fans) who came, saw, and dared to love the movies too. And were accused of not being real fans b/c they loved both books and films. And continues to defend the films.

This category can be further broken down into:

A)The outright total PJ worshippers, who think that no one else could have directed LOTR and gotten as good results,are still openly rooting for PJ only to direct;
B) Same as above, though they think there might have been someone else (this category may be few and far between though); and
C)The PJ admirers who admit to flaws in the films but still defend them anyway, for various reasons.(same as A) . But would be happy with either PJ or Del Toro.

I fall under C.
That describes me, though I'm only a lowly Gen X'er who discovered Tolkien in the late 80's.

So what would FryGuy and NE Brigand be? Sly


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 16 2008, 5:33am


Views: 13556
"The Wrath of the Lord"

TF, I may be able to contemplate differentiating commentaries on the artistic merits, of Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh, Phillippa Boyers, George Lucas, and Steven Spielberg.

I can accept legitimate crtiticisms and diassection of their characters, or interpretations of characters.

I can bear just about anything, really.

But....

Never.

Ever.

INSULT.

INDIANA.

JONES.

Or I will personally swoop from the sky in a bolt of riven flame, incinerate your backbone, and melt your face and eyeballs down like candle waxLaughSlyEvilTongue.

That character is GOD, you hear? *grin*

J/K. But really. I remember the divine experience of seeing that film in a theater when I was 11. I still haven;t gotten over it. And you know, the scene you deride so casually, you actually do see new things in it when you grow up. It wasn't until I became an adult that I realized that Spielberg may have actually been putting the audience in the viewing stage with the Nazis. IN our eagerness to look, and with subsequent viewings, our eagerness to see the Wrath Of The Lord fall upon the evildoers, are we any better than they? The issue is not what happens might be too grotesque to watch; it is simply what Indy comes to realize: that even divine justice is not for mere mortals to witness, for we are simply not worthy. It is with the same realization of this concept that makes Frodo grow in wisdom, as he counsels the hobbits to refrain from killing Saruman on the steps of Bag End. (No matter how just the deed, it is still sacrilege b/c it is not for Man's hands to perform; Vengeance is indeed the Lord's.) Interestingly enough, in the ROTK EE, this is hinted at when Legolas shoots down Grima for killing Saruman. A transplant of that scene, and a dimiished one, to be sure; but I'm glad it is still there, to be argued over, if it is caught.

So, are we better than the Nazis were in that scene? IF it were real, we would have fied in hell long ago.

Heady stuff, for a popcorn flick.

As to God not meant to be depicted as ghosts, etc, of course, you managed to catch that they were the Angels of Death? I suppose the Angels of Death do not carry harps and flap pretty wings? And how do we know what Moses saw when the Lord revealed HImself to him face to face, and he perished? For me, even as an adult, it stops being cheesy when we heard a man's scream dissolve into a rattling gurgle as his throat melts like wax. Then, it scares the living heck out of you.


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Feb 16 2008, 5:35am)


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 16 2008, 5:38am


Views: 13559
Thanks

I forgot the title,. And am glad to find out that IMO I am Legend WAS a rehash of this too.,

What was the "burning chair" story though?


fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 16 2008, 5:48am


Views: 13600
A, B, or C?

I am in none of those categories, haha. I liked the films for what they did right, I hate them for what they did wrong. I do not admire PJ or Fran and am certain the films could have and would have been better with a better director and writers. I just think of PJ as a B movie director who got incredibly lucky in having the reigns of the Hobbit handed to him. Again I enjoyed parts of the films, and freely admit to this. I cannot be categorized in any of the 3 categories you suggested because though I may like the films I cannot and will not defend the flaws you alluded to in them.


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 16 2008, 6:30am


Views: 13564
I know you're not....

In any of those categories, FryguyWink. Those were subcategories of "non-book purist" and trying to decide who was NARF. I still don't know the exact defenition.

I suppose I approach it a different way.

Brigand once asked me what it is about the books that really IS untranslatable...and oh boy, that WAS an epic post...there is a lot that belongs only in the book, and shouldn't be changed....

But that for another time, b/c my time online tonight is short....(after seeing Spiderwick Chronicles tonight...) and the INDY 4 TRAILER IN A THEATER!!!! That music again, on a big screen!


Solicitr
Gondor

Feb 16 2008, 6:45am


Views: 13739
Not really

Actually I have it on unimpeachable authority (CT himself) that he did see Film I. He has prudently chosen not to make his opinion of it public.


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 16 2008, 6:54am


Views: 13551
Tread Carefully

Sunflower, I think that is a very interesting artistic interpretation of Speilberg's interpretation of the Arc....

As for God's (biblical) view, well, I must tread lightly, because the flak may fly if I say what the scriptures say about God's judgement if past experience here has tought me anything.

So, I''ll say this:

My interpretation of scripture is that God does indeed see 'us' in our sin the same way he see the Nazis in their evil. It is only the world's view that there are various degrees of 'good' & 'evil' on a sliding scale that sees a scale that outweighs good deeds versus bad deeds & wins heaven over hell. The bible tells us that it's God's own mercy through Jesus that lets us escape judgement.

Sorry if this offends people, but the subject of God's judgement was brought up, so I responded - feel free to respond with your opinions in like.
It's out of Love this was done, not condemnation. In fact, it's done to remove condemnation from God, not heap it on us......

On the subject of angels, I agree, nowhere are angels mentioned as the 'cupid' type of angels or people who died with wings. Whenever an Angel showed up in the bible, people fell down in fear or fled away unless the angel took a human form.

And you're right, the 'Angel of Death' would look scarey, but the presance of God was supposed to be in The Arc, not the AOD......

Besides, God's presance left the Temple at the moment Jesus died on the cross & the Temple veil was torn in two, but I'm getting pretty theoligical now & that would've made for a boring opening of an empty, dead Arc of the Covenant that no longer had any power in Raiders........


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 16 2008, 7:19am


Views: 13546
You're welcome!

Glad you had a bit of fun with this - you need it just now! *hugs*

Thompson's quote left me grinning - she's so right! (And that reminds me - OhioHobbits Movie Tech Discussion threads finally convinced me that I *need* to get this book, as it is not only about merchandise as I first thought - and today I got an e-mail from Amazon that it will be delayed Mad Just when I'm so curious!)

I'm realistic enough to know it would be truly impossible to film the whole story so faithful, and I truly had expected even more changes. That's probably why I'm not so upset. And even if I'm not happy with some (Faramir, Frodo sending Sam away ...) I can understand PJ's reasons, explained on the DVD. Some I even think good decisions - they had to shorten somewhere, and even if it is a nice story, the whole Tom Bombadil part is not important for the rest, so better cut it completely instead of shortening everything a bit. And Arwen coming instead of Glorfindel - well, I missed Glorfindel, one of my favourites, and was a bit irritated at first. But I have to admit - when reading the book for the first time, Arwen was barely mentioned, and then all of a sudden she was marrying Aragorn, and I was a bit confused, even more so as I didn't have the appendices at this time. From a story telling POV, that's rather odd, to put it mildly, and PJ *had* to do something about that.

You see, I'm much too pragmatic for my own good Wink

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Starling
Half-elven


Feb 16 2008, 8:05am


Views: 13536
The burning chair

Geoff Murphy did some directing on parts of LOTR, and always sat outside in this rather hideous 70's lounge chair which became infamous amongst the cast and crew. At the end of shooting he poured an accelerant on it and set it on fire to great cheers from everyone. He also wore a large overcoat that was nearly as unfashionably awful as his lounge chair.
Murphy is a legend here. He directed a movie in 1980 called 'Goodbye Pork Pie', which is essentially a road movie about a couple of nutters who drive a yellow mini the length of NZ - lots of fun.Laugh


Starling
Half-elven


Feb 16 2008, 8:25am


Views: 13558
Got completely sidetracked

reading the old posts - thanks for that link.
Really, I feel like a little pit-pony surrounded by thoroughbreds when it comes to robust and intellectual Tolkien/Peter Jackson debates.
Aw shucks, I'm just a person who loves Peter Jackson's LOTR movies (but doesn't think they are perfect by any means), and thinks Tolkien's writing is beautiful and hugely impressive (but not my most preferred cup of tea).
Thanks for the NARF info (which has possibly left me even more confused) CrazyLaugh


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 16 2008, 1:19pm


Views: 13542
*high five*

Me too, Starling! Me too! I'm totally overwhelmed with the knowledge (and memory-power) of this place! I just hang on and enjoy the ride :D

Here... we'll stand next to each other. Maybe they won't notice ;)




sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


Annael
Immortal


Feb 16 2008, 3:01pm


Views: 13572
NARF

came about in reaction to certain posters who came on the board with, apparently, the sole purpose of informing us all what a "real fan" would think and believe about Tolkien and/or the movies. The exact details varied from person to person, but inevitably came down to "exactly what I think and believe." Anyone who had a different opinion from these posters, therefore, was "not a real fan." This did not sit well with some of us who have been Tolkien fans since the dawn of time, but in the same spirit that makes minority groups embrace negative epithets and turn them into emblems of pride, we took on the term Not A Real Fan, or NARF for short. That's why some of us have our NARF provenance in our footers.

Also, Real Fans tend to have a you're-either-with-me-or-against-me attitude and see things as either black or white; none of this "I don't like everything Jackson did, but in general I think he did a fairly good job" wishy-washy stuff. They usually don't last very long here, and go off to some other board where half their posts are about what is wrong with the people on TORn.


Only the mediocre are always at their best.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967

(This post was edited by Annael on Feb 16 2008, 3:11pm)


Draupne
Forum Admin / Moderator

Feb 16 2008, 4:17pm


Views: 13528
I think

she might be messing around in flat mode.
:-)


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Feb 16 2008, 4:25pm


Views: 13565
Welcome!

Thanks for that tidbit, Solicitr! And it's nice to see you dropping by the new boards.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us Feb. 11-17 for "The Ring Goes South".


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Feb 16 2008, 4:47pm


Views: 13550
So does Thompson feel the script of LotR is unfaithful to the book?

Kristin Thompson:

Quote
Bratman and others seem not to realize that only a mammoth audience, most of them unfamiliar with the books, would suffice to pay for the epic, detailed design they so admire.


As her quote from Bratman says only that the visuals were faithful to Tolkien* while the story and tone were not, Thompson's reply implies that she agrees, and that she believe those elements had to be unfaithful to draw an audience.

*That is a debatable proposition: see (some of) squire's discussion of design elements in TT, for instance his observation that the look of the Emyn Muil, while it works for the story the film is telling, is not the look described in the book.

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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us Feb. 11-17 for "The Ring Goes South".


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 16 2008, 6:47pm


Views: 13536
Nope

I thought NARF was reserved for the members of the "Deplorable Cultus" (that is, Boomer fans) who came, saw, and dared to love the movies too. And were accused of not being real fans b/c they loved both books and films. And continues to defend the films.

Actually a lot of us were first informed we were Not A Real Fan because we didn’t share A Real Fan’s outrage that New Line didn’t provide more screens for the Super Trilogy showings. (She also was a big Orli squee-er as well.)


This category can be further broken down into:

A)The outright total PJ worshippers, who think that no one else could have directed LOTR and gotten as good results,are still openly rooting for PJ only to direct;
B) Same as above, though they think there might have been someone else (this category may be few and far between though); and
C)The PJ admirers who admit to flaws in the films but still defend them anyway, for various reasons.(same as A) . But would be happy with either PJ or Del Toro.


Nope. Compare the following two examples:

“Anyone who thinks Jackson should direct The Hobbit is Not A Real Fan.“

“Anyone who thinks Jackson should not direct The Hobbit is Not A Real Fan.“

What makes one NARF is having respect for a fellow fan who has a different opinion, whether it is “The movies were great“ or “The movies were rotten“.

Note that NARF isn’t necessarily connected with the movies. Consider the following:

“Anyone who thinks Bombadil is important to the book is Not A Real Fan.”

“Anyone who thinks Bombadil is not important to the book is Not A Real Fan.”

In the end NARF isn’t about either book or movie, Tolkien or Jackson. It is about common respect.


I fall under C.
That describes me, though I'm only a lowly Gen X'er who discovered Tolkien in the late 80's.

So what would FryGuy and NE Brigand be?


NE Brigand thoroughly dislikes the films both as Tolkien and as films. However, he is always able to discuss both book and films intelligently and rationally without ever resorting to the ad hominem argument of “You’re Not A Real Fan.” NE Brigand is NARF.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



(This post was edited by Darkstone on Feb 16 2008, 6:51pm)


Magpie
Immortal


Feb 16 2008, 6:59pm


Views: 13518
yep!


Quote
In the end NARF isn’t about either book or movie, Tolkien or Jackson. It is about common respect.



That's it. What seems to be so hard for some to understand is: I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. It's a fact of life that one will never be able to have 100% of the population agree or approve on one. But what pushes my button is when someone tries to place a label (and by extension a judgment) because of my point/stance/opinion: You don't think what I think therefore you are ______.

I think one has to get to know me pretty well to determine anything about me. Almost no one who makes these sorts of statements know anything about me at all.

I had someone say the other day (on another forum) to those who didn't agree with him on a point:
You are not only an embarrassment to true Lord of the Rings fans, but an embarrassment to yourselves.

I just have to shake my head sometimes.




Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 16 2008, 7:24pm


Views: 13535
Thompson/NARF

Who the heck is Thompson?

Personally, since someone specifically asked, I really do not care to buy her book to find out if she likes the movies.
I'd rather read more Tolkien myself.

So, if I understand the basic 'foundation' for NARF, it is that there are no absolutes & we must all get along & accept one another's opinions, correct?

That sounds like the overwhelming attitude of this board, NARF or no NARF & what can you do about what someone else thinks anyhow?
They'll think what they want to think whether I (you, we) like it or not, so why get upset over what they think?

I think fans can be broken into different groups however:

Those who tend to focus on the films
Those who only post jokes.
Those who post questions about the books once in a while.
Those who write & go on & on about deep theories on Middle-earth.
Those who play live action fantasy games.
Those who go to conventions.
Those who have built freindships through any or all of the above.

I'm sure I've missed some, but you get the idea - it goes deeper & deeper into one's life & at any point, a person at one of those stages (by no means in any specific order BTW) might say, "Anyone not at MY stage is 'not a real fan'.....

So, who's to say what a real fan is?

Unless of course, you really think Sauron was a Lighthouse during The War of the Ring like in PJ's movie. Wink


Starling
Half-elven


Feb 16 2008, 8:24pm


Views: 13482
*sidles up alongside gramma* "We are not alone" :-D //



Starling
Half-elven


Feb 16 2008, 8:33pm


Views: 13493
Well.....

I must be, like, totally a real fan because when I was 5 we had a budgie and he was called Bilbo Wink

Love that new avatar (glad the sheep has its eyes shut)

Cool


Magpie
Immortal


Feb 16 2008, 8:57pm


Views: 13441
well


Quote
I think fans can be broken into different groups however:

Those who tend to focus on the films
Those who only post jokes.
Those who post questions about the books once in a while.
Those who write & go on & on about deep theories on Middle-earth.
Those who play live action fantasy games.
Those who go to conventions.
Those who have built freindships through any or all of the above.


perhaps, but who's going to decide which group any particular person belongs to. Who has that right? I don't think there's one person on this board who could correctly place me into any group even though I've been an active member for a 2-3 years. No one here knows enough about me. My life and my relationship with Tolkien is way more complex than more than a few people in my life could understand. What you see of me here is only one facet of my relationship. What you see of me *now* is only one facet of my relationship.

The people I respect (and this holds true across the board in life in a way broader application than just for 'Tolkien') don't place me in categories or apply labels because they understand this. The people who do place me into categories, apply labels, and then tell me what those categories and labels mean or what value they hold never know me well enough.

People can judge me all they want. But if they don't know me well enough to do so then all it gets them is benign avoidance on my part. I don't feel any need at all to justify or explain myself so as to avoid a label or category applied by someone who has not taken the time to get to know me.



Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Feb 16 2008, 9:48pm


Views: 13435
It becomes even more ridiculous

when we look back at where we were from where we are now.
How many of us have shifted categories over the long years?
We change and evolve as fans and as TORnados just as we do in Real Life.
I reserve the right to be whoever I want...whenever I want.
How can somebody else properly label me, when *I* don't know how to label me from day to day? =)


Annael
Immortal


Feb 16 2008, 11:41pm


Views: 13444
oh, there's a lot more categories than that


Quote
I think fans can be broken into different groups however:

Those who tend to focus on the films
Those who only post jokes.
Those who post questions about the books once in a while.
Those who write & go on & on about deep theories on Middle-earth.
Those who play live action fantasy games.
Those who go to conventions.
Those who have built freindships through any or all of the above.



you left out the Leggy-lovers, for one - those whose fandom pretty much centers around Orlando Bloom. They outnumbered everyone else here for a brief while in 2002.

Some other categories I can think of that I know are represented here:

- those who found the strength to endure some personal trial through Frodo's example
- those who focus on the religious overtones of the story
- those who like to study Tolkien's mythic/linguistic roots (see Beowulf discussion)
- those inspired by the story to write fan fiction, draw scenes/characters, build a hobbit house, create a garden, compose music, create costumes, make a video, etc.(see Fan Art)
- those who collect Tolkien-related items
- and let us not forget: those who are obsessed with Tom Bombadil Wink

What I don't get is, why does it matter? What is the point of trying to label people as this or that?


Only the mediocre are always at their best.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 17 2008, 2:11am


Views: 13413
Thimpson

You know, Brigand, I was going to answer that, but decided not to.

And that's b/c it seems to me that that there are an awful lot of people on the site who haven't read her book. I thought more people had by now, since we have been linking to her blog for months.
I am, in fact, shocked that in general, so few people know of the book. You go into a bookstore, and they don't carry it, you have to order it. This is strange, b/c it seems every other "tie-in" LOTR product is all over the shelves, still.

But this isn't a "tie-in" book. It's a true scholarly tome, a densely-printed 399 -pg hardcover. For me, quite surprising, and I'm both sad and puzzled as to there arent' more like it. Kristen Thompson is a film scholar, and her writing shows it. "The Frodo Franchise' is a unique work, as it examines every aspect of the films, artistically, historically, and culturally--and by "culture" i mean both in terms of actual history, film history, and impact on popular culture. There are whole chapters on New LIne, on the films themselves, on role and impact of the Internet (and yes, TORN gets a lot of time), on New Zealand, etc etc. The part "Building the Franchise" is fascinating, both in terms of reliving the best (or worst?) or LOTR PJ-mania, and an examination of a how modern film franchises are built, and how this one was difficult. Lots of pictures, includes muli-page color spread in the middle. And yes, she begins of course with The Professor himself....

Not to toot her horn too much, (well actually yes) this is one of those rare times where I really hype a boook, esp of this sort....it should be required reading for all fans, of the films at least, but I think the purists would find it fascinating too, as a study of the Industry...


Solicitr
Gondor

Feb 17 2008, 2:36am


Views: 13452
PMART Direct quote


In Reply To
This part makes it seem likely,
" &#8220;I would rather not discuss the films.&#8221; She did not find the Black Riders remotely frightening in the film."

I wish there was an exact quote of course but this is really an excellent report. Thanks for sharing it!


Another report of the Moot gives a direct quote:

Q: "Did you find the Black Riders in the movie frghtening?"

A: "Oh, God, no!"

I think I understand why. The BR are scary precisely because they're vague, uncertain, unknown. PJ's version were much too corporeal: he tried to make them warriors rather than spectres of fear.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Feb 17 2008, 2:48am


Views: 13431
"Warriors rather than spectres"

There were some good comments on the effectiveness of the Black Riders in the films in this installment of a 13-part discussion of Letter #210 that Entwife Wandlimb led in 2004.

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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us Feb. 11-17 for "The Ring Goes South".


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 17 2008, 3:31am


Views: 13441
Many Catagories Left Out...

I wish I could 'cut & paste' on my wife's laptop (the main computer's broke).....

But, I can't figure out how (I'm a computer moron).

Suffice to say, I left out many 'catagories' of Tolkien fans' of course. I didn't even touch on reading the books:

Those who've only read The Hobbit & TLOR once (like PJ - sorry, couldn't resist) Sly
Those who've read all 5 main books once or twice & never read The Appendices
Those who've read the 'main 5' a number of times
Those who've read the main 5 plus Unfinished Tales, The Children of Hurin & tried the other writtings - The Letters & HoME
Those who read everything Middle-earth over & over

Does any of this make anyone any better?
Certainly not, just who you are & not a 'NARF' either.
However, if you've only read The Hobbit & TLOR's once or twice, you're not going to be able to engage in a debate on whether Morgoth had more innate power at the end of the First Age than Sauron had in the Second Age - the answer is Sauron, by the way. Tolkien says so in 'Myths Transformed' in 'HoME Volume 11, 'The War of the Jewels' - Believe it or not!
So, you're level of commitment will impact your level of interaction, so to speak.......

BTW, As one who has suffered some HUGE personal trials, Annael, I cannot imagine the example of Frodo or any fictional character giving me inspiration.
Heck, Jesus Christ himself hardly gave me inspiration through 18 years of chronic pain (among others things). Sometimes one must just hold on for dear life without inspiration......
Laying in bed for a year with an infection that almost cost me my leg, Frodo was the last thing on my mind unless I was watching the movies. Frown


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Feb 17 2008, 3:35am


Views: 13412
"War of the Jewels" or "Morgoth's Ring"? //

 

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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us Feb. 11-17 for "The Ring Goes South".


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 17 2008, 3:45am


Views: 13446
Dammit!

You're right!

I put 'Morgoth's Ring' & then erased it....

Either way, it's a very interesting read, no?

A few essays later, in 'The Origin of Orcs' (whatever the title is) it states that Sauron is more powerful than Balrogs. Shocked

That Morgoth recruited different spirits.....

'Some greater, like Sauron, some lesser like Balrogs'

I know some folks won't like that one.......

Considering their Balrog obsession. Wink


Solicitr
Gondor

Feb 17 2008, 4:09am


Views: 13419
They're not trying to hit Zaentz


In Reply To
As you said, Zaentz sued NL a few yrs ago, for breach of contract. He was screwed over by NL just as much as the Estate was. And he was just as unsuccessful as the Estate at getting their just due.

Surely CT and the Estate can see that? Zaentz just didn't leave them out to dry. He isn't on the same low level as NL Far from it. He *fought* NL! So WHY would the Estate want to make an enemy out of Zaentz, by lumping him alongside NL in the suit? Zeantz is their ally, not their enemy.

Note that the part of the complaint which asks for NLC's rights to be revoked expressly provides for not prejudicing the rights of innocent parties- by which I'm sure is meant Zaentz inter alia.

However, ironically CT's biggest ally may prove to be Peter Jackson- because Wingnut's books could be used to demonstrate how far off the mark NLC's claimed production costs are.


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 17 2008, 4:17am


Views: 13407
There's always "overhead"

and "management charges". Peter's costs of production are only one part of the total costs to make the movies. New Line was responsible for all the advertising, in addition to the costs to make and distribute the prints, and those type of expenses are factored into the costs to make a movie. Many of New Line's additional costs are totally legitimate, but some are certainly bogus.

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.


NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


Solicitr
Gondor

Feb 17 2008, 4:29am


Views: 13397
Yes, but.


In Reply To
and "management charges". Peter's costs of production are only one part of the total costs to make the movies. New Line was responsible for all the advertising, in addition to the costs to make and distribute the prints, and those type of expenses are factored into the costs to make a movie. Many of New Line's additional costs are totally legitimate, but some are certainly bogus.


Insofar as I can get a view of the contracts from the complaint, by 'production cost' what is meant is almost certainly 'negative cost'- moneys spent to produce the master print. The costs after that point like marketing, advertising, distribution etc. are not counted. Every waiter in LA understands the difference between production and distribution. And PJ's and Zaentz' and Miramax' gross participation absolutely may not be counted as deducts from gross, as New Line has claimed.

This is an odd contract, because while it's based on gross points, not net points (or 'monkey points' as Eddie Murphy called them), it then establishes an artificial payment threshhold of 2.6x production costs. Which to me suggests that Sassoon (JRRT's agents) were making a net deal but working around Hollywood Accounting by saying "your ads and marketing etc etc etc are predefined at 1.6x the cost of putting it on film: we're not going to let you define subsequent costs."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Feb 17 2008, 4:40am


Views: 13392
Ah, well, what can I tell you

You know the purist and book fan in me rumbled loudly the mometn I realize that nearly all of Gandalf's most impressive displays of Wizardry had been deleted to fit Peter's tastes, marring his image and diminishing his status among millions of new LOTR fans world wide. My displeasure burst into new flame when Glorfindel got not even a brief dialogue line at the council, and burned anew when Gandalf Beat up Denethor. . . and shadowfax kicked him into the fire. I also would have liked more than a goatee on Gandalf The White. . . and I HATED the extended scene with the Witch King. . .

But I did like the props and most of the scripts.

I loved most of the films content. . . but there were things that left me severely dissapointed, and things which I hated. What bothers me most, no doubt, is that unlike huge changes such as Bombadil or Elf addition at Helm's deep, which I was okay with, the ommissions and alterations that most bothered me were things that could easily have been managed. Small things, in terms of the time they would take up, but potent things just the same.

As to the suits. . . part of this is hope talking, as more than anything I want these films to stay on track for 2010. I fall ever more into the camp that feels this is indeed about the money. Tolkien's estate knew ages ago that they had not received accurate pay, and they could have swooped down to sieze further film rights even before the last extended edition film came out, or at the least when the earliest rumours of The Hobbit began to stir. They chose now, likely mere days if not hours before The Hobbit machine was about to kick into full operation, because they knew it would be the best and last time to squeeze for the most money. If the seize the rights, everything else becomes mute. Even if ordered to pay, the companies will hold out on the cash for years, with New Line almost certainly declaring bankruptcy, and Time Warner finagling to try and avoid responsibility. TE has its best shot for getting any money while Time Warner through new line still holds the rights and is willing to go the distance to keep them.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


squire
Half-elven


Feb 17 2008, 5:05am


Views: 13451
What are the "Main 5" Tolkien books?

"Those who've read the main 5 plus Unfinished Tales, The Children of Hurin & tried the other writtings - The Letters & HoME"
"Those who read everything Middle-earth over & over"


These last two categories of Tolkien fans who 'read the books' as you put it, are not very exactly defined; nor do they capture the "ultimate" nature of Real Fans.

"Real Fans" do not simply "try" the "other writings" while (as you seem to imply) regarding The Children of Hurin as a core Tolkien book. I would suggest additional categories, all of whom I've encountered in the plural on TORn in the past few years I've been here:
  • Those who've read all of Tolkien's published fictional works, and all the posthumous collections edited by Christopher Tolkien or others. This goes beyond "everything Middle-earth" and includes Farmer Giles of Ham, Smith of Wootton Major, Roverandom, Mr Bliss, and Letters from Father Christmas, to name a few non-Middle-earth works of his.
  • Those who've read the five main works of the Big 2 of Tolkien's critics, Tom Shippey and Verlyn Flieger.
  • Those who've read extensively among Tolkien's critics and commentators, not just the books but the scholarly articles and compendia.
  • Those who've read Tolkien's linguistic writings - starting of course with the material in the LotR Appendices and the HoME volumes, but also including the episodically released works from the journals Parma Eldalamberon and Vinyar Tengwar.
  • Those who study Old English and related medieval scholarly subjects, and read Tolkien's non-fictional scholarly works, seeking to connect his fiction to the worlds and languages of the past that he loved and tried to recreate and update in his fiction.
  • Those who read extensively in the romantic fantasy and adventure fiction of the last two centuries, seeking to connect Tolkien to his own literary time and place.
  • Those who read and research the lives, times, and letters of Tolkien and his colleagues, rivals, and friends, seeking to connect Tolkien to a social and academic milieu rather than regarding him as a solitary genius scribbling away in an attic.
  • Those who research and write scholarly papers and books on their thoughts and discoveries in the above areas.

As I said, all these people can be found on TORn -- if not everyday, then from time to time, in person or by reference. They are really interesting to learn from. It's one of the reasons I still hang out on TORn after all these years, having read the "big 5" (what are they, exactly) countless times.

But wait! Are these people really "fans"? one might ask.

We have asked. They always answer, "yes".




squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


Solicitr
Gondor

Feb 17 2008, 5:42am


Views: 13399
I'm surprised they put up with it this long


Quote
I fall ever more into the camp that feels this is indeed about the money. Tolkien's estate knew ages ago that they had not received accurate pay, and they could have swooped down to sieze further film rights even before the last extended edition film came out, or at the least when the earliest rumours of The Hobbit began to stir.


The Estate has been pressuring New Line to pay up practically since Film I was released- that they have been this patient is remarkable. Mind you also- the Estate is NOT trying to reclaim the film rights. If they win that part of the suit, the rights will simply revert to Zaentz. This suit will not affect *any other studio* making The Hobbit.


a.s.
Valinor


Feb 17 2008, 5:59am


Views: 13463
the more you learn, the more you listen?

Although I haven't published in the Tolkien realm as have some other "fans" here on Torn, I've certainly read a lot of Tolkien-related material--much of which I found after 2004 when I found Torn.

Which I found because of an article about the movies!

Fancy that.

But my point is, the more I read, the more I listen to what others discuss. It seems to go hand in hand somehow. The more I listen, the more I learn. The more I learn, the more I listen.

Don't know where I fit in these lists of "fans". I've read a lot of all those listed but only part of HOME and haven't read History of Hobbit yet, and read COH only grudgingly and with bad temper. Cool I've read most of the major critics and lots of the minor critics and lots of dissertations and magazine articles and straight through LOTR Companion, etc.

And in the end it boils down to one thing: Frodo's Journey. I'm an odd sort of Tolkien "fan", I guess, getting spiritual inspiration from a book I originally loved for the magic and the elves but ended up reading as a treastise on Providence, mercy, and grace.

"I can manage it", said Frodo. "I must". I can't think of better words to live by, fiction or non-fiction.

I imagine in 500 years the story of Frodo will still be told, and we won't be seeing the original version by that time. Tolkien's story will pass into something like a "real" myth, the way we have countless re-tellings of Mallory. Will we still be arguing about how people re-tell the story of Frodo, I wonder?

Probably. I'm sure there will still be Tolkien nerds in 2508. I wonder how much my 2nd edition HMs will be worth by then?

Cool

a.s.

"an seileachan"

"Just look along the road, and tell me if you can see either of them."

"I see nobody on the road," said Alice.

"I only wish I had such eyes," the King remarked in a fretful tone. "To be able to see Nobody! And at that distance too! Why, it's as much as I can do to see real people, by this light!"


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 17 2008, 6:27am


Views: 13395
Well

I think it's not so much about categorising fans, but about tolerance.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 17 2008, 11:56am


Views: 13387
Yes! and

not assigning people into groups, and most especially drawing conclusions about a person because of the "group" they've been assigned to. That's the point about NARF. We NARFs are amusing ourselves at the expense of those who accused us of not being real fans; we've somehow come up short in whatever measurement those folks are using to assign us to a group.

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.


NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 17 2008, 12:15pm


Views: 13389
Oh yes :)


In Reply To
not assigning people into groups, and most especially drawing conclusions about a person because of the "group" they've been assigned to.


*lol* That can't work anyway - these groups don't say anything about the character of a person, and the character is saying much more than any opinions about LotR.



In Reply To
That's the point about NARF. We NARFs are amusing ourselves at the expense of those who accused us of not being real fans; we've somehow come up short in whatever measurement those folks are using to assign us to a group.


Ah yes, I can imagine! That has to be a lot of fun at their expense! Cool

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 17 2008, 2:10pm


Views: 13397
They're not here every day

because they're off reading those wonderfully rich books. I bow deeply with much appreciation to those Sir Edmund Hillarys of Tolkien's works. While I have most of those pieces sitting right here on my shelves, I've yet to climb most of those mountains.

TORn is an island of wonder to me.




sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


overlithe64
Rivendell


Feb 17 2008, 2:43pm


Views: 13387
thats quite the list

I think fandom can't actually clasified. I have read TLOR many times as well as the Hobbit. I managed the Sil once and I use it for reference. I've read the unfinished tales at least twice. But I still can argue a thing about Morgoth...lol. Hobbits and their history interest me more, I have a very difficult time with "histories" real or imagined and the dates and relationships all get twisted in my head.

IT doesn't mean I feel any less passionate about the entire work, history is just not my thing.

As to Frodo and inspiration???? Sorry you couldn't draw strength in a difficult time, though its sounds like it was too overwhelming to even look for inspiration.
He inspires me greatly but it is a personal things, it is one of the things that is so wonderful....We all love it but not always the same things touch us.


a.s.
Valinor


Feb 17 2008, 3:06pm


Views: 13390
& you're an island of wonder to Torn!!

The stars were aligned for the good of all, when you and Torn found each other, gramma!!

Heart

a.s.

"an seileachan"

"Just look along the road, and tell me if you can see either of them."

"I see nobody on the road," said Alice.

"I only wish I had such eyes," the King remarked in a fretful tone. "To be able to see Nobody! And at that distance too! Why, it's as much as I can do to see real people, by this light!"


Annael
Immortal


Feb 17 2008, 4:05pm


Views: 13385
no?

My list was derived from observation of this board since 1999. In that time I've read many stories from those who have been through some very tough times indeed, and have pointed to LOTR in general and Frodo (or Sam) in particular as inspiring them to persevere. One example: just last week, weaver lost her business in a fire. The tree in front survived - she is now calling it The White Tree & taking it as a sign that the business will be reborn.


Only the mediocre are always at their best.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Annael
Immortal


Feb 17 2008, 4:14pm


Views: 13391
that's the nub

a fan is anyone who identifies themselves as a fan.

Some are more casual about it, some are more obsessed. The obsessiveness can take different directions. You left out learning Tengwar and writing in it - I went through a phase of that in junior high with my friends, mostly so we could pass notes no one else could read, but also because we loved LOTR so much and wanted to be part of that world.


Only the mediocre are always at their best.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 17 2008, 6:49pm


Views: 13366
The thing is...

Is that some people loved some of those changes while others hated them, and you may have liked some changes that others hated. You can't please everyone.

(I liked seeing more of Arwen, since she does marry one of the main heroes in the end- could have done it without the whole "dying" subplot, though). I don't care where Anduril showed up, hated the elves at Helm's Deep, hated Frodo telling Sam to go home, hated Gandalf in the third film... esp. with the Witch-king! GAH!

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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 17 2008, 6:53pm


Views: 12572
Hah!

I have a love-hate relationship with ROTK EE. They just failed with the script there. I don't have much beef with the other films (TTT EE made me appreciate TTT, since it has some sort of explanation for Faramir's odd behavior).

In the end, one does have to appreciate the work put in them, even if the script turned, well, odd at a few points. I press "fast forward" myself. Or pretend it's a dream ;)

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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 17 2008, 7:06pm


Views: 12572
Think of it like this

If Glorfindel had been put in, you would get a whole bunch of this:

"ZOMG GLORFY IS HAWT!"

"Is that Legolas?"
"No, Glorfindel."
"Is he like, Leggy's brother or something?"

"Who's that dude?"

... yea. At least he remained untouched ;P

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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 17 2008, 7:12pm


Views: 12593
Then, there is, of course

"Those who fit in so many categories that if you try to label them your head will explode"

In the end, I am NARF. NARF is me. Me is me. Me is... me?

*head explodes*

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Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 17 2008, 7:19pm


Views: 12582
*rofl*

Hadn't thought of that before, but you're right. *Two* good looking blonde heros would have been too much!

Now you have me wondering if that was the reason why they didn't include the twins Wink

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 17 2008, 7:20pm


Views: 12574
I wanted the twins!

But considering how they have been completely "Fred and George-ified" in fan fiction, maybe not.

Heck, I wanted Halbarad and the Rangers, too. But then I'd have to see Halbarad die, and I would have cried even more :(

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Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 17 2008, 7:35pm


Views: 12566
Me, too!

You mean as master pranksters? That's not how I imagine them, either. But I always loved Jay of Lasgalen's twins, for example. Still, it would have been so nice to have them there, too. Two more good looking elven warriors *sigh* I'd gladly trade them for the elves at Helm's Deep.

And I agree about Halbarad. On both accounts. As I've read Boz4pm and SurgicalSteel, wo both use him, I came to love Halbarad even more and would have cried my eyes out if I'd have to watch him die.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 17 2008, 7:50pm


Views: 12572
Precisely

"Master pranksters" amused me when I was 14. A few years later, not so much, and I really hate seeing it in so much fan fiction. I do believe they had a sense of humor, but... not so childish. Jay of Lasgalen is good. Meckinock is also good, of what little she showed of them (she tends to focus more on Aragorn and Rangers).

Man, if they had to have people there, I would have gladly had the Grey Company at Helm's Deep! They would be a week early, yes, but... yes. I was never a fan of Lorien's elves, who had their own battles against Dol Guldur, anyways!

I have also read Boz4Pm... plan on reading more of her sequel one of these days. I read a little of surgicalsteel, as well. I would read Meckinock, I highly recommend her. Her Halbarad is absolutely amazing. As is her Aragorn. And Gandalf. And OCs. She is one of my favorite authors.

My LJ
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NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 18 2008, 1:06am


Views: 12578
For Squire (Mostly)

By the 'main 5' I mean The Hobbit, TLOR & The Silmarillion, The 5 books that have been out for 30 years & lay out the history of Middle-earth/Arda from beginning to 'the Dominion of Man'.....

Yes, I know Christopher Tolkien had to make a few 'adjustments' on The Silm, but whatever. The other choice was that it stay in JRR Tolkien's endless pile of unfinished papers forever & would any of us preferred that?
Besides, CT later goes beyond yoeman's work & lays out all the papers his father had on The Silmarillion & lets us see the other 'facts' that are in his father's more obscure papers, like Orodreth's lineage & even the fact that he regreted making up the way Thingol dies in Doriath - very noble of him.

As far as 'The Children of Hurin', are you aware, Squire, that this major work is nothing but a rearranging of already existing & published narratives from The Silmarillion & Unfinished Tales?
I found NOTHING new in this book that I have not been reading for over 25 years......

That makes it hard to call this a major work in a way.

I guess you have a point about Farmer Giles & Leaf By Niggle, etc, but this is THEONE RING.NET, therefore about Middle-earth, so I took it for granted that the focus is on Middle-earth only.

As for fairy stories in general, same thing.

And other's commentaries on Tolkien, couldn't be bothered reading them. It's kinda like bible commentaries - As one bible scholar said, "The commentaries shed light on the bible? Well the bible sheds light on the commentaries."
Same with Tolkien...
His own writings shed light on his books & that's enough for me. I don't want to read some PHD pontificating about the deeper meaning of Tolkien's works & the history of fairy story.

But, that's just me. I'd rather figure out where dragons came from by the variuos quotes Tolkien gives here & there.
Others may say this is a waste of time & for them, they're right.

BTW, NARF's say that catagorizing fans is wrong, but isn't NARF a catagory in itself? Wink


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Feb 18 2008, 2:04am


Views: 12573
(Speaking) for squire.


Quote
I guess you have a point about Farmer Giles, Leaf By Niggle, etc., but this is TheOneRing.net, and therefore about Middle-earth, so I took it for granted that the focus is on Middle-earth only.


That is a reasonable supposition, based on the site's name, though the page header does say, "TheOneRing.net: Forged by and for fans of J.R.R. Tolkien", which implies that Tolkien's other works, and life, are also of interest here.


Quote
As far as The Children of Húrin, are you aware, squire, that this major work is nothing but a rearranging of already existing and published narratives from The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales? I found nothing new in this book that I have not been reading for over 25 years.


We actually spent three months last year discussing CoH in the Reading Room; squire led one of those discussions and included a textual comparison of his chapter to its earlier incarnations in S and UT. I think there a few hundred words in CoH that hadn't appeared in the previously published texts; a list of "new" material was linked on the Mythopoeic Society mailing list here last spring. And note that squire did not call CoH a major work.

Of course you needn't read others' writings on Tolkien if you don't want to -- that wasn't squire's point. Rather he was stating that there other kinds of fandom than those described in your list.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us Feb. 11-17 for "The Ring Goes South".


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Feb 18 2008, 3:57am


Views: 12570
Regarding "commentaries on Tolkien".


Quote
And others' commentaries on Tolkien? Couldn't be bothered reading them...
His own writings shed light on his books and that's enough for me. I don't want to read some Ph.D pontificating about the deeper meaning of Tolkien's works and the history of fairy story.


As I said, no one here wants to force you to read scholarly study on Tolkien. But if you participate in discussions here, you are reading "others' commentaries on Tolkien". No work can be read without some kind of context, and each of us brings only so much to the experience. So one idea underlying a forum such as this is that we learn from the perspectives of others. For example, I know very little of either Classical or Celtic myths, and so learned much from FarFromHome's comments on how those two traditions inform Strider's song of Tinuviel that he sings at Weathertop.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us Feb. 11-17 for "The Ring Goes South".


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 18 2008, 4:14am


Views: 12578
No Biggie

I think this is all highly subjective with no right or wrong, so it's no big deal any way any of us look at it.

As far as CoH goes, a couple of hundred different words in a few hundred pages of text (whatever) is hardly anything new.
Good greif, I do think some people need to get out in the world a little though if they analize things that much to discover the exact words that were changed.
It reminds me of some (Grateful) Deadheads I know who can tell you every song from every concert the band ever played (about 2000 shows & 35,000 songs) as opposed to enjoying the live music from those concerts......
Whatever - different strokes for different folks.

I guess me not knowing there were several hundred changed words in CoH could make me NARF in some folks eyes? Wink

BTW, I realize that writing/reading posts here is participating in other's commentaries & thought that very thing when writing that. But, they aren't so lofty & intellectual as books I've come across & one can pick & choose the topics that appeal to you & skip the ones that don't.
I guess that's what I'm doing by not buying somebody's books though.....


MrCere
Sr. Staff


Feb 18 2008, 6:24am


Views: 12553
"And in the end it boils down to one thing: Frodo's Journey." - Don't you mean Sam's journey? {NT}

 

The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie


MrCere
Sr. Staff


Feb 18 2008, 6:28am


Views: 12535
'Fan' is short for 'fanatic' though isn't it? {NT}

 

The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie


Radhruin
Rohan


Feb 18 2008, 6:52am


Views: 12562
Good grief indeed.


Quote
Good greif, I do think some people need to get out in the world a little though if they analize things that much to discover the exact words that were changed.



Of course you must be aware that there are many "lurkers" following this discussion. :) Here's one.

Telling any of us (lurkers or active participants) to "get out in the world a little" left me chuckling. I know what I do to pay my way in my earthly life, and I happen to know what several members of these boards do for a "living", or career if you will. I hardly think they waste their hours away here. It's called a hobby, or past-time, or distraction, or just plain recreation. I would hope that is what you call your additions to the boards. If not, you simply must have too much time on your hands.

Me thinks thou protests too much.


"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it."
~Chesterton


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 18 2008, 6:54am


Views: 12526
Completely agree

Among the first stories I ever read, there were a few of these 'master prankster' ones. But that gets tiring quite soon. A few pranks as long as they're little, yes, or maybe even a few with little Aragorn, to cheer the child up. But not permanent, at their age! That's rather unbelievable, isn't it?

Jay was one of the few good authors I found at ff.net, and she brought me to SoA :)
Thanks for the tip - will check out Meckinock. I believe I've read a bit from her, but I'm not completely sure. It's been a while.
And yes, continue with Boz! Usually I'm avoiding these 'modern day girl falls into ME'-stories at all costs, but this one is so unusual realistic that I was hooked. No Mary Sue, but a very interesting situation.

Hm ... the Grey Company at Helm's Deep instead of the elves? That's an idea! Yes, that would have been great. BUT only under one condition - that PJ didn't kill Halbarad and the twins Wink

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 18 2008, 6:54am


Views: 12568
Frodo/Sam

I think that's interesting you mention 'Sam's journey', McCere.

I see Frodo gets all the credit & people saying Frodo giving inspiration - I won't go back into getting inspiration from fictional characters again

I do think Sam is the one I would most want to emulate though.
Why?
Total self-sacrivice.

He's the one who never thinks of himself, while Frodo is consumed with himself (with good reason albeit). Sam gives Frodo all the food, all the water, even carries Frodo up the mountain when he can't walk himself.

This quote in ROTK, 'Mount Doom', when Sam realizes they're going to die in Mordor best sums his attitude up:

There could be no return.

'So that was the job I felt I had to do when I started' thought Sam: 'to help Mr. Frodo to the last step & then die with him? Well, if that is the job then I must do it'... But even as hope died in Sam, or seemed to die, it was turned to a new strength. Sam's plain hobbit-face grew stern, almost grim, as the will hardened in him, & he felt through all his limbs a thrill, as if he was turned into some creature of stone & steel that neither despair nor weariness nor endless barren miles could subdue.
Elsewhere, Sam says in his mind, 'If there's a way back, it leads past the mountain.'

As Frodo says to Sam after the Ring is destroyed when Sam is talking about "Nine-fingered Frodo & the Ring of Doom", "He wouldn't have got far without his Sam."

'


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 18 2008, 7:10am


Views: 12535
Too Serious

I just can't imagine anyone taking the time to split the hairs fine enough to know the several hundred words that weren't contained in Unfinished Tales & The Silmarillion.

This is a work of fiction. To me, to be read & enjoyed, not to be analysed under a literary microscope.
To each their own, however, Just count me way out on that one, I'd be bored to death taking the time to figure it out.
But then again, somebody (not me) else would be bored to death discussing Durin's Bane or The Witch-king of Angmar for a month & a half (but show me who, lol).

Like you said, it's distraction, a hobby, that's all.


stormcrow20
Gondor


Feb 18 2008, 8:24am


Views: 12543
I agree, Radhruin

I agree one hundred percent, Radhruin. Thanks for saying it more eloquently than I would have!


In Reply To

Telling any of us (lurkers or active participants) to "get out in the world a little" left me chuckling. I know what I do to pay my way in my earthly life, and I happen to know what several members of these boards do for a "living", or career if you will. I hardly think they waste their hours away here. It's called a hobby, or past-time, or distraction, or just plain recreation. I would hope that is what you call your additions to the boards. If not, you simply must have too much time on your hands.

Me thinks thou protests too much.



"Good Morning!"

(This post was edited by stormcrow20 on Feb 18 2008, 8:29am)


a.s.
Valinor


Feb 18 2008, 8:58am


Views: 12533
only literally in the end!

"Well, I'm back"?

Cool

Let me re-phrase a bit: for me, the book is essentially the story of Frodo's journey and that's why I re-read the book. There are more than enough "beauties which pierce like swords or burn like cold iron" in the book to allow for many individual interpretations, I think! I'm not suggesting LOTR is "about" Frodo's journey. I'm suggesting that Frodo's journey is what I re-read the book to follow.

a.s.

"an seileachan"

"Just look along the road, and tell me if you can see either of them."

"I see nobody on the road," said Alice.

"I only wish I had such eyes," the King remarked in a fretful tone. "To be able to see Nobody! And at that distance too! Why, it's as much as I can do to see real people, by this light!"


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 18 2008, 9:01am


Views: 12526
Would it not be

thou protesteth? Thou protesteths? protestetheths... eth?

*fails at Early Modern English*

Oh, and did I add that I completely agree with your post, and, yes, you are much more eloquent and diplomatic than I could be!

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NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 18 2008, 9:03am


Views: 12528
What about the Ring's journey?

Or poor Sauron? The book is named after him, after all ;)

*dabbles some sugar on your lying cake*

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NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 18 2008, 9:06am


Views: 12524
*whimpers*

Halbarad lives! Tolkien read a mis-translation of the Red Book, that's it... yes. That's exactly it.

Oh, and Meckinock is simply brilliant. Her Halbarad is my permanent interpretation of Halbarad, so brilliant..

My LJ
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NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


a.s.
Valinor


Feb 18 2008, 9:09am


Views: 12554
it's an interesting thought, the Ring as agent

I was just saying in the RR that it's interesting the chapter is called "The Ring Goes South" and not something like "The Fellowship Takes The Ring South". The Ring as active member of the Fellowship?

Certainly an interesting interpretation that the book is essentially the story of the journey of the Ring.

Cool

a.s.

"an seileachan"

"Just look along the road, and tell me if you can see either of them."

"I see nobody on the road," said Alice.

"I only wish I had such eyes," the King remarked in a fretful tone. "To be able to see Nobody! And at that distance too! Why, it's as much as I can do to see real people, by this light!"


a.s.
Valinor


Feb 18 2008, 9:49am


Views: 12553
without Shippey, I would not have learned

(even prior to my RR participation!) that there is reason to the rhymes.

Without Flieger, that thinking about time travel for writing his story in competition with Lewis informs some of the dream experience and the Lorien experience in LOTR...and vice versa.

Without Garth, just how profoundly Tolkien's mythology is a product of a traumatized WWI survivor, in certain respects.

Without Rutledge, that there is a "theological basso profundo" underneath the melody.

Just a few examples. I can't imagine repeated re-reading without seeing what scholars and others have written about my favorite book.

Without the RR...well, I can't isolate all the important commentary there over the last several years. I can only be grateful that NEBCFTPFY*.

Of course it's possible to read LOTR many times with enjoyment without reading any analysis or commentary. It's a complex and wonderful story in itself, or we wouldn't still be discussing it so passionately a half century after it was written. Tolkien placed great trust in the "revelatory power of narrative" (to quote Rutledge) So there isn't any "need" to read what scholars write about it. But it sure is interesting.

Cool

a.s.




* NE Brigand can find that post for you!

"an seileachan"

"Just look along the road, and tell me if you can see either of them."

"I see nobody on the road," said Alice.

"I only wish I had such eyes," the King remarked in a fretful tone. "To be able to see Nobody! And at that distance too! Why, it's as much as I can do to see real people, by this light!"


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 18 2008, 10:02am


Views: 12526
Frodo made a mistake

In SurgicalSteel's Happy AU, there's a chapter where Halbarad is reading the Red Book and discovers what Frodo wrote about him. It was all a mistake - and I have already decided that *is* what happened Wink

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 18 2008, 3:32pm


Views: 12197
*blushes* gee, a.s. :) Thanks! //

 




sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


MrCere
Sr. Staff


Feb 18 2008, 7:03pm


Views: 12198
Just having fun stiring the pot!

It couldn't resist throwing in some funny controversy in this thread. I knew what you meant. AngelicEvil

The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie


Annael
Immortal


Feb 18 2008, 8:09pm


Views: 12200
what about the Balrog's?

wouldn't things have gone a lot better for him if he'd had - wings?


runs away and hides


Only the mediocre are always at their best.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967

(This post was edited by Annael on Feb 18 2008, 8:09pm)


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 18 2008, 8:20pm


Views: 12175
LOL

Nice! Yes, that is my decided interpretation of the events *grin*

My LJ
My art site
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NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 18 2008, 8:37pm


Views: 12204
"His will was set

and only death would break it."

Sam - Tolkien's "everyman" - "hope unquenchable": the batman, the one who understood fully his place in Middle-earth and accepted it without question, whose loyalty was steadfast, lover of Elves and all things green and growing, who endured much and still remained simple of heart.

We can never fully emulate him, only do our best to try to...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Feb 18 2008, 9:33pm


Views: 12173
*mods up*//

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 18 2008, 11:07pm


Views: 12182
Sam

Emulating Sam is like trying to emulate Christ in many ways, certainly in this area of setting his mind to serve Frodo.
The suffering servant.
I know many people see Christ in Frodo & Gandalf (also Aragorn if you look at The Return of the King through The Pathes of the Dead)), but to me, despite Frodo's suffering, regardless of the circumstances, it is based in a degree of selfishness (duck, TF), & Gandalf, while he returns from the dead with great shining light, is more like Christ will be in His 2nd coming - the great warrior in victory.

So, I personally see Sam as the most Christlike figure Tolkien created, at least in terms of 'walking it out' on a daily basis.

Perhaps a better way to put it would be to say Frodo & Sam represent 2 aspects of Christ: Sam the suffering servant & Frodo, Christ going to the cross.

Whatever, sorry to babble on so, Blush but it's pretty clear as JRRT wrote, 'This (TLOR) is basically a Christian & Catholic work'..


ArathornJax
Lorien


Feb 19 2008, 12:13am


Views: 12177
Tolkien Estate Lawsuit Online

Here is a copy of the actual lawsuit filed by the Tolkien Estate:

http://news.findlaw.com/nytimes/docs/ent/tlknnewline21108cmp.html

Let us then be up and doing
With a heart for any fate;
Still achieving, still pursuing,
Learn to labor and to wait.

H.W. Longfellow




a.s.
Valinor


Feb 19 2008, 12:34am


Views: 12173
I knew that you knew that I knew what you meant

Wink
a.s.

"an seileachan"

"Just look along the road, and tell me if you can see either of them."

"I see nobody on the road," said Alice.

"I only wish I had such eyes," the King remarked in a fretful tone. "To be able to see Nobody! And at that distance too! Why, it's as much as I can do to see real people, by this light!"


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Feb 19 2008, 6:32am


Views: 12167
Are you certain?!!


In Reply To

Quote
Mind you also- the Estate is NOT trying to reclaim the film rights. If they win that part of the suit, the rights will simply revert to Zaentz. This suit will not affect *any other studio* making The Hobbit.



Are you SURE about this??? Are you ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN AND PROOF POSITIVE? I hate to call loudly, but I have to ask, because the implications are huge. Does it not extend To MGM or TIME WARNER??? If these things are true, it will allay a lot of worries. But. . . "You are sure of all this?"

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Solicitr
Gondor

Feb 19 2008, 1:45pm


Views: 12155
I'd bet on MGM


In Reply To

In Reply To

Quote
Mind you also- the Estate is NOT trying to reclaim the film rights. If they win that part of the suit, the rights will simply revert to Zaentz. This suit will not affect *any other studio* making The Hobbit.



Are you SURE about this??? Are you ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN AND PROOF POSITIVE? I hate to call loudly, but I have to ask, because the implications are huge. Does it not extend To MGM or TIME WARNER??? If these things are true, it will allay a lot of worries. But. . . "You are sure of all this?"


The complaint only requests that New Line, specifically, lose its rights: it emphatically doesn't ask that the Estate get them back. This does not and could not affect Saul Zaentz' reversionary interest which kicks in next year: SZ isn't alleged to have done anything wrong.

MGM is already a player, since they own distribution and therefore are probably on the inside track. Time-Warner has a problem in that by owning New Line, they own all it assets and liabilities- including any prohibition on The Hobbit.


(This post was edited by Solicitr on Feb 19 2008, 1:46pm)


ArathornJax
Lorien


Feb 19 2008, 5:10pm


Views: 12157
Estate is asking for distribution and production rights to revert to them, not to NL, Zaentz, or MGM.


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

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Mind you also- the Estate is NOT trying to reclaim the film rights. If they win that part of the suit, the rights will simply revert to Zaentz. This suit will not affect *any other studio* making The Hobbit.



Are you SURE about this??? Are you ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN AND PROOF POSITIVE? I hate to call loudly, but I have to ask, because the implications are huge. Does it not extend To MGM or TIME WARNER??? If these things are true, it will allay a lot of worries. But. . . "You are sure of all this?"


The complaint only requests that New Line, specifically, lose its rights: it emphatically doesn't ask that the Estate get them back. This does not and could not affect Saul Zaentz' reversionary interest which kicks in next year: SZ isn't alleged to have done anything wrong.

MGM is already a player, since they own distribution and therefore are probably on the inside track. Time-Warner has a problem in that by owning New Line, they own all it assets and liabilities- including any prohibition on The Hobbit.


Yes the TE IS asking for the rights to production and for distribution to come back to them. If you read the entire compliant, it is there. MGM is a player because of the 1969 contract, and if New Line as the successor of interest and the inheiritor of the obligations of the 1969 contract, then MGM would lose its distribution rights. Zaentz would have no rights because they would have reverted back to New Line via his 1999 agreement via Miramax and New Line.

Again, if you read the entire lawsuit, the Estate IS asking for the production and distribution rights to come back to them. The suit traces the 1969 agreement going from Tolkien to United Artists to Zaentz to Miriamax, to New Line. With New Line violating the agreement, on page 12 of the compliant, lines 45-48, the Estate is asking the Court to
1. Terminate New Line Rights which are Zaentz rights, which are MGM rights, which came to New Line from Miramax, from Zaentz, from United Artists.
2. That New Line became the successor in interest to the 1969 contract and assumed its obligation to pay the TE and Harper Collins their share,
3. Thus, since the company (New Line) is in violation of the contract, the rights should now come back to the Estate and to Harper Collins, the legal inheiritors of the two parties in the 1969 agreement. Everyone else loses.

So, the TE IS asking for the rights to come back to them, and they state that they believe they can do this, though New Line disagrees. Thus they are asking the court for a "declaration" on this issue. If the court says New Line is in default, and because of default they award the rights away from New Line they will not go back to Zaentz, they will go back to the estate. New Line is the successor in interest to the original contract and all of its obligations. Failure to pay or to avoid to pay may just be seen as a breach and the rights could very easily be awarded back to the Estate. It is assume then that the TE could sit on the rights, or sell them at a much higher monetary amount then Tolkien sold in 1969.

Let us then be up and doing
With a heart for any fate;
Still achieving, still pursuing,
Learn to labor and to wait.

H.W. Longfellow




Solicitr
Gondor

Feb 19 2008, 6:14pm


Views: 12137
No.

New Line is not the sole successor in interest. MGM's distribution rightsd derive from the UA merger and are not dependent on any subsequent deals involving the production rights. Zaentz only let New Line have a limited license, due to expire within the next year, and Zaentz' reversionary interest in those rights was never transferred to New Line and cannot be harmed by New Line's misdeeds.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Feb 19 2008, 10:45pm


Views: 12125
Alright, not to sound arrogant . . .

Yet I must ask, which if either of you has a degree in Corporate or contract law, or any experience therein. I don't ask to be obnoxious. . . but if you all are going to play with my emotions, I need to see some credentials. . .(Solicitir, for the sake of my heart and peace of mind, I hope you are entirely valid in your assertions. . . but) To quote Galdor. . . "May we not have the proofs?"

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Solicitr
Gondor

Feb 19 2008, 11:50pm


Views: 12113
Be still, your beating heart

In the US at least, lawyers don't get specialized degrees, just an all-purpose JD or LLB. In fact the ABA frowns on claiming specializations, which is why you often see that nifty circumlocution 'practice limited to....'

Be that as it may, contract and especially the bizarre world of entertainment law are not in my field- but like all lawyers Contracts was one of the foundation-stones of my education.

So I'll happily concede that there may very well be pecuiliarities of New York statute or precedent I'm not aware of. But in general terms, New Line's conduct can only imperil rights it owns, not rights owned by other parties like MGM or Zaentz. (The law would consider separately NLC's present, time-limited licence, and Zaentz' 'reversion' or right to get them back when the time runs out.).


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Feb 20 2008, 8:23am


Views: 12488
And from mine heart a great weight is now lifted. . .

If what you are saying is correct, and I pray it is. . . well, first and foremost, I still don't think Time Warner is just going to let the rights get away. My bet is they will move to solve all this quickly, even if it means selling New Line and using the return profit to pay of Tolkiens estate.

That said, the rights going back to Zaents, who already has some partnering set up with MGM, at years end, could circumvent both the Estate reclaiming them AND, TW and TE tying up production for years in court battles.

Really, if scripting proceeds on schedule, Saul, MGM and WETA could pick the ball up without missing a beat the moment rights revert to Zaents at the midningt bell of 2009.

Your thoughts, o wise Solicitir, comforting counsellor of my heartWink

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."