The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit: HUGE Announcement from Peter Jackson's facebook page TITLE CHANGE AND DOS EE

The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
HUGE Announcement from Peter Jackson's facebook page TITLE CHANGE AND DOS EE

The Grey Pilgrim
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 1:48pm

Views: 27656

HUGE Announcement from Peter Jackson's facebook page TITLE CHANGE AND DOS EE

https://www.facebook.com/PeterJacksonNZ?fref=nf

wow A LOT TO SPECULATE ON...not really sure how I feel about this TABA felt so perfect.

There and Back Again is NOW "Battle of the Five Armies"

and DOS EE is 25 minutes longer with new Howard Shore music!!

HUGE DAY

(This post was edited by The Grey Pilgrim on Apr 24 2014, 1:56pm)

DanielLB
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 1:51pm

Views: 25410

I wasn't expecting that ... /

FrogmortonJustice65
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 1:54pm

Views: 25320

mixed feelings about this

Let me preface this by saying it won't affect my actual enjoyment of the film (a rose by any other name would smell just as sweet, afterall) but I do think I preferred the original title.

Maybe "There and Back Again" isn't perfect (Jackson is right that Bilbo already got "there" in DoS) but naming the film after 1 battle scene, in a film that will have multiple other battles (Laketown, the Necromancer, and other stuff I'm sure) seems odd.

Plus, I liked that "There and Back Again" was thematically linked to LOTR -- via the title of Bilbo's book and via Sam's line in the ROTK EE ("We're going there and back again, just like Mr. Bilbo").

But it is afterall just a name.

photo cbccab4e-f61e-4be5-aaa1-20e302430c7c.jpg

Arannir
Valinor

Apr 24 2014, 1:54pm

Views: 25246

Good.

It always kind of bugged me that the second film had the title Tolkien used for the entire tale. But with the three movie split it really became an issue imho.

Bot5A for movie III and TABA used for the entire set is a very good idea.

Although the battle is only one event of this movie, it is the major event happening and connected to almost all other major plotpoints (kind of sparked - at least in its ultimate shape - by Smaug's death, prescedented by all the politics and finger-pointing, subsequented by the deaths and the journey home etc).

25 minutes is also good news... I do not like extended cuts that go totally nuts on the running time. And the music part is great news for sure.

(PS: Freedom of Opinion - fair enough. But what some people post as replies on Facebook is really poor.)

“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."

(This post was edited by Arannir on Apr 24 2014, 2:03pm)

Thranderz
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 1:55pm

Views: 25235

WOW

Actually sounds good, although I liked the TABA name! Looks like we'll be referring to it as BOFA Tongue

.

As for the additional comment about the DoS EE, that has me very excited! Especially the part about Shore's original music! Cool

I simply walked into Mordor.

book Gandalf
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 1:56pm

Views: 25204

ok

i honestly thought they were going to announce a fourth film when i was reading that!!

im ok with this, it isnt very tolkien, but the title now suits the cgi computer game action fest the hobbit has become, for good or bad, im excited for the huge battle now, but mourning the innocence of the hobbit thats lost.

This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party.

Elessar
Valinor

Apr 24 2014, 2:07pm

Views: 25140

I'm 50/50

I really would have preferred they stay with The Hobbit: There and Back Again but this is alright. It still feels Tolkien like. I do like that the Box Set will be called The Hobbit: There and Back Again though.

Loving that DOS is getting 25 mins. That's about what I thought it would get and I'm hoping it has lots of slower moments to make this film flow just a little bit better.

Erufaildon
Bree

Apr 24 2014, 2:08pm

Views: 25149

Was AUJ EE scored by Shore

or not? Since people are excited about the 25min being scored by Shore.

The Grey Pilgrim
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 2:10pm

Views: 25105

I think all AUJ EE music was from the original recording sessions

Taken from the "extended" cues on the special edition soundtrack if I'm not mistaken. I don't think there was any new music recorded for it.

Rohirrim Rider
Rivendell

Apr 24 2014, 2:12pm

Views: 25107

Howard Shore's involvement is the best news here... And at least the title isn't 'Into The Fire'!

As much as I loved AUJ:EE it didn't quite feel like a real EE. The 13 minutes were fine and they added just enough to make it worthwhile, but 25 minutes AND new Howard Shore music? That's a proper Middle-Earth Extended Edition!

As for the title - it loses the Hobbit-ness of There and Back Again but it's perfectly understandable why it doesn't fit. The Battle of the Five Armies puts a bit too much emphasis on one aspect of the story (then again, The Return of the King does a similar thing) but it's not Into the Fire and that's a very good thing. So I'm happy with The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies.

(This post was edited by Rohirrim Rider on Apr 24 2014, 2:13pm)

Arannir
Valinor

Apr 24 2014, 2:12pm

Views: 25058

Scored by his music...

... but the music was not specifically written for the scenes during the editing-process of the EE version.

Lindele
Gondor

Apr 24 2014, 2:14pm

Views: 25075

Couldn't agree more

such good news!

Arannir
Valinor

Apr 24 2014, 2:14pm

Views: 25075

Agree on RotK...

... actually, I think Bot5A encompasses more than RotK ever did (and gives less away).

I always wished the publisher back then had used "The War of the Ring" for books 5 & 6 of LotR.

Might seem strange for non-German speakers, but partly I am glad for this change because I hate the German "There and Back Again" ("Hin und wieder Zurück") and love how the German term for Bot5A ("Die Schlacht der Fünf Heere") sounds. One of the very very very few Tolkien terms that have a better flow in German than in English imho.

ghost_matt
Rivendell

Apr 24 2014, 2:16pm

Views: 25070

me too!

I thought he was about to announce a fourth movie. I like "The Battle of Five Armies" as a title, and it's MUCH better than "Into the Fire", but TABA is still the best title.

WOOHOO on the 25 extra minutes!!! Hopefully that's what we're actually going to get. When AUJ first came out PJ also said the EE would have about 25 more minutes. Of course, they're probably farther along on the EE for DOS.

Faleel
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 2:17pm

Views: 25068

You

You pretty much got it right, though there were some scenes where either Jackson did not like the music (Bilbo talking to Elrond), or he just edited in music from elsewhere in the score (Thranduil and the gems)

NecromancerRising
Gondor

Apr 24 2014, 2:18pm

Views: 25029

Great news.

The Battle of 5 Armies are exact words from Tolkien himself and a catchier title than TABA.And in marketing terms it is better imo.I really liked the title TABA myself and i am glad that it will be used as a title for the whole trilogy at least!

And DOS EE over 25 minutes!!I hope it reaches any magical number between 30-35.I would be delighted.

"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"

Skaan
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 2:18pm

Views: 25070

Does this sound like the start of the first wave of marketing?

Looks like we might get some vlogs/posters soon. Perhaps we'll get a trailer along with the release of Godzilla?

Arannir
Valinor

Apr 24 2014, 2:21pm

Views: 25039

While I do not doubt...

... PJ & Company's story intentions for the name change for one second, I am sure that some marketing people at WB may be quite happy with this new title.

I just hope they do not start trying to hide big parts of the movie, again. Imho that strategy failed with Smaug who should have been on posters (at least the way he was used on the China and Twitter posters). The battle and other highlights of TBot5A should be used in a similar fashion the Pelennor was used for RotK.

TheImaginator
Rivendell

Apr 24 2014, 2:26pm

Views: 25006

Woooaaah

Hated the new title at first but within a few minutes I started to really like it :D I would have preferred it to stay "There and Back Again" just because I love how vague and Tolkein it is but "The Hobbit: The Battle of Five Armies" is a pretty good title too.

I like to see it as the culmination of the entire Hobbit series. Almost every encounter and event in the the trilogy directly affects BO5A (as in the actual battle). The actual title IMO isn't referring to the actual battle, it's just using it to symbolize and embody the massive culmination of events and series of consequences that will be shown in the third film, such as Smaug attacking Laketown, all the death from that and bo5a, the return of Sauron because of the ignorance and naivety of people. It's like one big hangover from AUJ and DOS.

dubulous
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 2:27pm

Views: 24994

I guess it makes sense

I liked There and Back Again but I understand the change since they already got "there" in the last movie, so the title wouldn't have made so much sense.

The Battle of the Five Armies is not a particularly catchy name though. It's a bit of a mouthful.

xxxyyy
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 2:30pm

Views: 25048

Who cares about the title? Over 25 mins for DOS EE? "Over" is magic word here.

The more the better for DOS, expecially in the first part.
Let's hope they reach a nice 30 or 35 minutes, right?
I was hoping for 40 mins, but I admit that was a bit of wishful thinking.

Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Apr 24 2014, 2:32pm

Views: 25030

Before you get too excited

Remember that Jackson overstated the amount of extra material for AUJ. Hopefully that won't be true this time around.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire

cats16
Half-elven

Apr 24 2014, 2:35pm

Views: 24964

Big news!

I was a little surprised to see this change so late in the game, but, I do appreciate them reflecting on whatever cut of the film they had and knowing that a change needed to be made. I'm sure that wasn't an easy decision--for both PJ and WB. In the end, I'm not kicking and screaming about it. None of the three titles were going to be 'original' in the sense that FOTR/TTT/ROTK were. They all had to be artificially made to feel like they were part of Tolkien's world. This one, however, happens to be a direct phrase from this portion of the book.

Hoping for a vlog in the next couple of weeks! It's been awhile!!

cats16
Half-elven

Apr 24 2014, 2:36pm

Views: 24946

I believe he said 25 minutes that time as well, correct? //

The Grey Pilgrim
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 2:38pm

Views: 24942

Yeah he said 25 minutes for AUJ back in December 2012

I think it was at Buttnumbathon with Harry Knowles, and we only got 13 minutes Frown

But this estimate seems like it'll be more accurate as it was given a lot later in the game where they're probably pretty much done with the EE. Perhaps that is why PJ and Co waited so long to announce DOS EE length because of what happened last time.

davidjUK
Bree

Apr 24 2014, 2:39pm

Views: 12320

There and Back Again

About 10 minutes ago when I first read the news, I was a bit disappointed that "There and Back Again" was not going to be used. But I think "The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies" is a good title and sounds more exciting. I trust Peter with these stories, so I'm sure the this is the right decision. Can't wait for December!

As for the EE, I'm excited we get some new original score from Howard! Hopefully they have put the Dol Guldur sequences as they were meant to be, and new music has had to be done for it.

Eleniel
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 2:40pm

Views: 12261

And the fact that HS is scoring new music means they must have it pretty much firmed up by now... //

"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort

NecromancerRising
Gondor

Apr 24 2014, 2:40pm

Views: 12237

I think so too.

But let's not forget one crucial difference between the 2 movies.AUJ TE did not "scream" expansion,but for us,being Middle Earth lovers, any extra minute is like a small treasure.A large expansion though was not really necessary.On the contrary,DOS TE "screams" expansion and i believe PJ is aware of that.This is the main reason i think we will have our precious 25-35 minutes of an extended DOS cut.

"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"

(This post was edited by NecromancerRising on Apr 24 2014, 2:43pm)

cats16
Half-elven

Apr 24 2014, 2:42pm

Views: 12225

For sure.

I would guess that the number is still *slightly* yet to be determined, just because they still have choices to make about whether to include a scene in the DOS EE or the BoFA TE. Especially given Jackson's tendency to be editing at the last minute.

But I agree that he probably has a good idea this time around what's in and out of the EE.

Annatar598
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 2:43pm

Views: 12227

That was before DOS was fully put together

Though. I'm pretty sure it'll be a different editorial thing this time round.

"[Annatar598] is an overzealous apologist [for PJ]" - Certain TORn member.

Really? Alright...

Well, proud to be one I guess.

Kangi Ska
Half-elven

Apr 24 2014, 2:45pm

Views: 12491

The Final Sell-out

The Studios have got what they wanted all along and my sorrow deepens. KS

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

cats16
Half-elven

Apr 24 2014, 2:46pm

Views: 12201

Oh, definitely!

I agree with you.

I simply mean that we shouldn't hold him firmly to 25 minutes, as he may choose a particular scene (say it's 6 minutes) at the last minute for the BoFA TE, instead of the DOS EE. Of course, since the EE comes out a month before the third film, this won't be happening quite so much at the last minute, compared to AUJ/DOS.

Misty Mountain Hop
Rivendell

Apr 24 2014, 2:48pm

Views: 12241

Final cut?!

In terms of the usual timelines for LOTR and The Hobbit, is it normal for them to have the rough final cut in place at this time? Too early? Too late?

Based on interviews and what not it seems like there will be no additional filming, just the usual ADR and other things like that. So with about 8 months until release, is that about the right time for them to be editing the final cut?

"Only, you've never done a hard day's work." - Merry

NecromancerRising
Gondor

Apr 24 2014, 2:51pm

Views: 12394

How is a sellout?

Isn't the new title taken from the exact same words Tolkien used in his book?If there was another title, like the rumour we had heard a week ago "Into the Fire" i would totally understand you.Right now,i fail to comprehend your objection.And that is why i would like to see why you feel that way.

"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"

(This post was edited by NecromancerRising on Apr 24 2014, 2:53pm)

cats16
Half-elven

Apr 24 2014, 2:54pm

Views: 12191

*Where does it say final* cut?**

The only mentioning of 'cut' talks about PJ having a cut ready to show studio heads. He never says anything about a final cut.

Arannir
Valinor

Apr 24 2014, 2:55pm

Views: 12208

What exactly did they want all along?

Imladris18
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 2:56pm

Views: 12318

KS is known for being dramatic about these films in general.

Thinks it "destroys" Tolkien or something... Any piece of Hobbit movie news that isn't something like it being canceled will deepen KS's sorrow.

wonderinglinguist
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 3:03pm

Views: 12142

Agreed

As you said, it is just a name and I'm sure we'll get used to it soon. I was rather fond of There and Back Again, though, and I hope the phrase is said at some point in the film to make more of a connection to the book title in LotR.

keep smiling Smile

NecromancerRising
Gondor

Apr 24 2014, 3:04pm

Views: 12259

If the words from

Tolkien destroy... Tolkien, then, i can say no more!

"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"

Elarie
Grey Havens

Apr 24 2014, 3:04pm

Views: 12171

So happy about the extra time in DOS EE

Can't wait to see it.

Suspect the title change is a way to get more of the general audience back in the theater for the big climax by including the word "battle".

Hop to it, Radagast, we've got dark powers to sleigh.

Bernhardina
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 3:05pm

Views: 12188

I am just happy it itsn't "Into the Fire"

I think Battle of Five Armies is a great title for a film. And does it matter what it is called, really? TABA and BOFA will be the same movie, just different names. I respect PJs opinion and agree with his decision Smile

Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 3:10pm

Views: 12121

Yep

This is a marketing move all the way. It's also a good oen. I have been very critical of WB's marketing and I think this was a smart move on their part. While There and Back Again is indeed very Tolkien, in terms of getting butts in the seats in the movie houses BoT5A will work better and generate more interest. It's a WB move all the way. Good one too.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13

Bombadil
Half-elven

Apr 24 2014, 3:28pm

Views: 12104

One of the Nicest Parts of this Quote...

"...just Jabez & I in a Dark Room in a Cave in Wellington.."

This Bodes well,
since all the extranenous
Interruptions are gone.

Jus' 2 guys having a Go @ it...
Allows PJ to Refine, Define &
Then Refine again.

JUST like any Artist...you
NEED to step a Ways BACK
& Really Look @ it,

Disengage from the Moments,
& Allow it to have a Life
of it's OWN?

Bomby & AllOfYou are
Blessed.
Heart

Remus
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 3:28pm

Views: 12085

I like it!

I like the 25 minute of extended scenes in the DoS movie!

25 is a good number and it was what i expected from the first movie (AUJ).

I hope we get to see more of Sauron and Dol Guldur!

More Smaug scenes is a safe bet.

I wanna see a scene where we see Sauron walking the steps INSIDE of Bara-Dur and taking his seat upon his dark throne and summoning the eye, looking into the camera and then BAM! THE END.

-My thoughts on the best ending scene/post credit scene on TABA.

Misty Mountain Hop
Rivendell

Apr 24 2014, 3:41pm

Views: 12036

I apologize...

Wow, I didn't realize I used the word "final", sorry about that!

I meant to say that they had finally put together the first cut of the final film, meaning they structured everything together and have the large portion of the final film ready to be cut down.

Of course it's not even close to "Final", my bad on that one.

"Only, you've never done a hard day's work." - Merry

Brandywine
The Shire

Apr 24 2014, 3:43pm

Views: 12050

BOFA

I love the new title. It sounds really epic. TABA just felt wrong for the third movie.

(This post was edited by Brandywine on Apr 24 2014, 3:43pm)

Estel78
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 3:51pm

Views: 12053

Like it has been stated, it's a more marketable title.

I'm fine with it.

Yay for over 25 minutes of footage in the DOS SEE with original music from Shore specifically written for it. Smile

Michelle Johnston
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 4:02pm

Views: 12021

Everything leads down to it which makes it the "Right" title..

The more familiar I become with DOS the more I am convinced that everything is entwined with the Battle. Dol Gulder is on the way already and all the personal story lines are set to reach their denouement at the battle.

In story telling terms the one matter which is not clear is the confrontation between the White Council and The Necromancer.

I cannot see Sauron being confronted and withdrawing before the Battle he has been revealed as having a strategic plan for the North and is moving all the pieces. Its his plan.

Are we in a two gambit mode a la Pelennor followed by Black Gate, FA followed by Dol Gulder.

Or is it all wound together with a high mythological end where the White Council (like the army of the dead) come to the aid of the Men/Elves and Dwarves.

Gandalf has made Sauron reveal himself before the latter is ready is that to force the White Council to act against Dol Gulder or draw him out in away which makes him more vulnerable.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

Otaku-sempai
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 4:02pm

Views: 12064

The title change may be for the best.

As much as I liked TH:TaBA, TH:Bo5A is a more dynamic title.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

DanielLB
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 4:05pm

Views: 12055

Well ... it does have an extra "the".

The movie title really should be The Battle of Five Armies.

TheHutt
Gondor

Apr 24 2014, 4:09pm

Views: 11682

I suppose...

...they were planning this for some time. They first pitched the idea of "Into The Fire" to check out the opinions on the Net. After the negative outcome, they selected "The Battle of Five Armies" instead.

The Hobbit: An Unexpected Booklet Project

MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 4:26pm

Views: 11694

25 minutes!

woot woot! more than i expected, i thought maybe around 15 minutes.

The flames of war are upon you.

Farficom
Rivendell

Apr 24 2014, 4:39pm

Views: 11641

I must say...

That I'm a little shocked they changed the title this late in the game. I really thought There and Back Again was a perfect title... but in the end I will be in line early on opening day. Getting used to calling in BoFA instead of TaBA is going to be tough.

book Gandalf
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 5:17pm

Views: 11604

theory

theory, TORn used the 'into fire' to drum up a bit of anticipation and a few thousand extras clicks, someone on the inside knew a change was imminent but they couldn't let the cat out of the bag.

cmon own up, what exactly was registered when into fire was mooted?

i smell a cleverly leaked rumour :P

This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party.

Eruvandi
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 5:18pm

Views: 11587

Well, at least BOFA is better than "Into the Fire"

I guess I can deal with that, since it's what they had thought about calling it BOFA to begin with. The main problem for me will be trying to get used to using the new acronym! Wink

Glad to hear about the 25 extra minutes of EE and the new music though. Can't complain about that. Smile

"But there’s empty cross, there’s an empty tomb
Fire and wind now sweeping in this tiny upper room
There’s a hungry world, there’s a risen King
Unlock the doors, what reason more could we ever need?
So sing with me, I dare you to
Because there’s an empty cross; there’s an empty tomb"
~Empty (Disciples)-sung by Dan Haseltine and Matt Hammitt

Elanor of Rohan
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 5:26pm

Views: 11590

Very happy with the additional 25 minutes

and looking forward to watching more intimate moments that DOS TE badly needed.

I was a bit shocked when I heard of the changing of the title but I agree with those who said it is a more catchy title for the general public. And it's canon Wink

, unlike Into the Fire.

Glorfindela
Valinor

Apr 24 2014, 5:29pm

Views: 11588

Personally

I much rather prefer 'There and Back Again', since it sounds as though it is far more centred around Bilbo (and Tolkien's book).

BoFA makes it sound like just another battle (an excuse for PJ to insert even more of those moments he considers 'fun', like those we saw in DoS ad nauseum). Crazy

I will certainly be happy to have 45 minutes or more in the EE for DoS. The film needs this, provided they are character moments for book canon characters, and not more 'party' moments with people chucking food around, or individuals emerging from lavatories or ninja elf comic-book moments.

(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Apr 24 2014, 5:34pm)

TheHutt
Gondor

Apr 24 2014, 5:31pm

Views: 11557

Well...

Quote

Well, at least BOFA is better than "Into the Fire"

Well, that's the psychology of that, isn't it? First to pitch a very bad title and than a slightly better one, so everyone is relieved it's not THAT title. :)

The Hobbit: An Unexpected Booklet Project

(This post was edited by TheHutt on Apr 24 2014, 5:32pm)

Dcole4
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 5:36pm

Views: 11537

Haha, that could very well be the case.

Movie studios are always cautious not to disturb the fans. I wouldn't be surprised if "Into the Fire" was released publicly to create a sigh of relief when "Battle of the Five Armies" was settled on.

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 5:37pm

Views: 11563

At least it's not "Beauty and the Dwarf".

Though more Tolkien songs would be appreciated.

******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah

(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 24 2014, 5:39pm)

Morok Cloudkeeper
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 5:44pm

Views: 11585

It seems that people don't understand what "There and Back again" means

Biblo and Co. went on this adventure(there) and the last film shows the main conflict and their return journey(back again). Where is the problem? How could this title not be appropriate?

Your work is going to fill a large part of your life, and the only way to be truly satisfied is to do what you believe is great work. And the only way to do great work is to love what you do. If you haven't found it yet, keep looking. Don't settle.

tsmith675
Gondor

Apr 24 2014, 5:57pm

Views: 11496

There and Back Again was a good title...

But it never made sense for the third film, as much as everyone wants to say it did, it didn't. BoFA makes more sense.

The Hobbit: There and Back Again fits the entire trilogy, rather than one film.

Our destiny lies above us.

Eruvandi
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 6:01pm

Views: 11473

snert Good point! //

jtarkey
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 6:09pm

Views: 11528

What horrible news this is

A perfect title thrown out the window in order to attract the masses with promises of overblown action.

That's why it was changed. Make no mistake.

They should have just called it "The Hobbit: One last attempt to make more money by appealing to the lowest common denominator".

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"

^^^ That unnecessary apostrophe and "e" is due to the leaf itself. And this part of the signature was documented quite some time after the effect had worn off.

tsmith675
Gondor

Apr 24 2014, 6:11pm

Views: 11502

BoFA makes more sense.

Make no mistake.

Our destiny lies above us.

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 6:14pm

Views: 11468

Art or cash.

We know which one Tolkien would have chosen.

******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah

Imladris18
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 6:14pm

Views: 11492

Nope, you're the lowest common denominator because you like excitement in your movies.

We are but filthy peasants who ruin it for the elite.

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 6:16pm

Views: 11491

That I am.

I hate boring movies. Go fig.

******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah

Imladris18
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 6:16pm

Views: 11454

Why not both?

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 6:17pm

Views: 11447

You'd have to ask Tolkien. /

******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah

jtarkey
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 6:17pm

Views: 11463

It sounds like a title a 13 year old would come up with

It's fine for a chapter in a book, but calling the film that just rings false to me.

Sorry

Azimuth
The Shire

Apr 24 2014, 6:17pm

Views: 11439

Exactly my thoughts!

I was going to write the same Smile

Quote

Well, at least BOFA is better than "Into the Fire"

Well, that's the psychology of that, isn't it? First to pitch a very bad title and than a slightly better one, so everyone is relieved it's not THAT title. :)

I prefer new title, it seemed inappropriate to call 1/3 of the story by the title of a whole story. Now it fits, TABA will be for the whole Hobbit trilogy.

BTW I was always confused with these acronyms, I read TABA as The Battle of 5 Armies, and get used to call the 3rd film like that while speaking and thinking. I remembered about There and Back Again only when I run into BOFA (like "oh yes, this is the acronym for the army thing, not TABA!"). I hope it will bring more people to the cinemas, to prove WB and other studios that it is worth to make films about Middle Earth.

(This post was edited by Azimuth on Apr 24 2014, 6:24pm)

tsmith675
Gondor

Apr 24 2014, 6:18pm

Views: 11473

Well Tolkien came up with it...

And he was older than 13, I believe.

There and Back Again never made sense for a third film.

Our destiny lies above us.

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 6:20pm

Views: 11451

Like "The Reason I Jump"?

Good title, good book, by a 13 year old.

Recommended.

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Old Toby
Grey Havens

Apr 24 2014, 6:20pm

Views: 11495

This is losing sight of the forest for the trees IMO

This is focusing on one element in Bilbo's story. And this is Bilbo's story...at least according to Tolkien. Now I realize these films are according to PJ, and I'm fine with the films. but the title of the last film should reflect the entire journey. I think There and Back Again is a perfect title for the last film, bringing a sense of completeness. The new title sounds like just another big special effects hoopla. It would be like calling the Two Towers The Battle of Helm's Deep or the Return of the King The Battle of the Pelennor Fields. I realize this is probably a marketing scheme, but I for one am extremely disappointed. Frown

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)

(This post was edited by Old Toby on Apr 24 2014, 6:22pm)

There&ThereAgain
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 6:21pm

Views: 11337

Middle-Earth is ripe with extra 'the's

THE Fellowship of THE Ring
THE Return of THE King

although in this case, The Battle Of The Five Armies makes sense with or without the 'the.'

*pauses to reflect

"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 6:21pm

Views: 11348

Me too.

It was a little too Katnissy.

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Estel78
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 6:25pm

Views: 11331

Love the knee-jerk reactions...

Guess what, those movie were greenlit to make money to begin with. I bet you'll love it when it passes $1b at the box office. Maybe the title change will bring in those few needed millions. Wink

Having said that, i don't believe it was purely a money grabbing decision. The title has been registered for quite a while, they were obviously toying with the idea of naming it that way since they decided to make three movies. PJ makes a good argument for the name in his post.

Old Toby
Grey Havens

Apr 24 2014, 6:25pm

Views: 11300

I think you've just coined a new phrase....

"It was a little too Katnissy."
LOL!

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 6:27pm

Views: 11290

Just like with "The Marriage of Figaro".

The marriage was only a small part of Act 3.

Totally inappropriate title.

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(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 24 2014, 6:27pm)

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 6:29pm

Views: 11298

Thanks!

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Estel78
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 6:29pm

Views: 11288

This is not just Bilbo's story.

This is also very much Thorin's story. In the movies at least.

Imladris18
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 6:32pm

Views: 11284

Exactly.

TTT was much more than Orthanc's and Barad-dur's stories. It was more about the events surrounding the two towers and what they represent.

RotK was much more than Aragorn's story. It was more about the events surrounding the Return of the King.

DoS was much more than Dale's story. It was more about the events surrounding what happened in Dale.

BoFA will be much more than the story of the battle. It will be more about the events surrounding the battle.

Faleel
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 6:33pm

Views: 11257

..

Which build up to the battle... hence the title.

Sunflower
Valinor

Apr 24 2014, 6:34pm

Views: 11296

*shrug*

Well, with WB calling all the shots here (I'm sure Peter wanted TABA, regardless of what he writes) did we really expect anything different?

Let's hope there will be S8ome* room for things like, you know, character development and such. Hoping that Bilbo and Thorin's last shared scene won't be 15 seconds long and sandwiched in between epic battle sequences....

Imladris18
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 6:35pm

Views: 11284

That, and everyone seems to forget:

Every title is literally prefaced with "The Hobbit." Bilbo is referred to in the first noun of every single title about these movies.

(This post was edited by Imladris18 on Apr 24 2014, 6:36pm)

Old Toby
Grey Havens

Apr 24 2014, 6:35pm

Views: 11260

Regardless

I'm still disappointed with the new title. I like the old one better.

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)

tsmith675
Gondor

Apr 24 2014, 6:37pm

Views: 11266

The entire movie is going to revolve around the battle

So it fits. It's not just about the battle, but the build up, the actual battle, and the aftermath. It's just a fitting title, in my opinion.

Our destiny lies above us.

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 6:37pm

Views: 11245

Can't argue with that. /

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Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 6:41pm

Views: 11256

But...

...every title of Lord of the Rings was prefaced with "The Lord of the Rings", yet none of the titles really refered to Sauron except (arguably) TTT.

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Imladris18
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 6:44pm

Views: 11239

Well, right.

That further drives home my point that people are overreacting to "BoFA" not referencing Bilbo :)

zalmoxis
Bree

Apr 24 2014, 6:50pm

Views: 11241

Also,

I suspect that the 'Back Again' part of the tale will be reduced, or omitted completely. An epilogue with Ian Holm or whatever, glued to endless battle scenes in PJ style, would appear farcical, IMO.

Imladris18
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 6:53pm

Views: 11250

PJ didn't really overdo any battle in LotR.

Maybe parts of them are a bit OTT, but in general he seemed to do an excellent job.

I'm not sure why everyone is jumping to that conclusion.

Elessar
Valinor

Apr 24 2014, 6:54pm

Views: 11211

You're theory

would be wrong.

Faleel
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 6:55pm

Views: 11229

Because

its Hobbit Jackson seems to be more far gone than LOTR Jackson.

(This post was edited by Faleel on Apr 24 2014, 6:56pm)

Elessar
Valinor

Apr 24 2014, 6:56pm

Views: 11225

Because

its much easier for people to overreact to things.

Imladris18
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 6:59pm

Views: 11210

It's almost like the source material isn't as serious as LotR is or something.

Estel78
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 7:00pm

Views: 11202

Maybe PJ is not who you want him to be.

If he would be strictly against something, i don't think he would let WB have their way and then sugarcoat it in a post, i really don't.

(This post was edited by Estel78 on Apr 24 2014, 7:02pm)

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 7:01pm

Views: 11221

I have to honestly admit, it's actually a better title.

Consider this sequence from the end of “The Clouds Burst":

“The Eagles! the Eagles!” Bilbo cried, dancing and waving his arms. If the elves could not see him they could hear him. Soon they too took up the cry, and it echoed across the valley. Many wondering eyes looked up, though as yet nothing could be seen except from the southern shoulders of the Mountain.

“The Eagles!” cried Bilbo once more, but at that moment a stone hurtling from above smote heavily on his helm, and he fell with a crash and knew no more.

The screen goes black………

Non-readers will be going “Wha???? Bilbo Dies??????”

Of course that moment would be spoiled if the title was “The Hobbit: There and Back Again”.

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(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 24 2014, 7:03pm)

Imladris18
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 7:04pm

Views: 11184

I thought you changed the words at first saying a Stone Giant hurtled a stone at Bilbo.

I chuckled.

While true, the opening scene of the trilogy is old Bilbo writing the book :P

Glorfindela
Valinor

Apr 24 2014, 7:05pm

Views: 12396

Why would that be?

In Reply To

its much easier for people to overreact to things.

Much easier than what? I simply know what I like and what I don't like – it's as basic as that.

wonderinglinguist
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 7:12pm

Views: 12465

Is it really necessary

for the snarky comments about other posters?

keep smiling Smile

NecromancerRising
Gondor

Apr 24 2014, 7:12pm

Views: 12398

LOL.Nice one :))

Seriously now,that fandom/fan base/fan club cannot be for real. Laugh

A TITLE of a movie changes from a canon to another canon one and immediately,a tempest of protests is stirring up. Out of a sudden the microcosmos they had created in their tiny little heads collapses like a tower made of paper.Overreactions,exaggerations and hybris against those who dared to "mess" with something so important, such as a movie title,is the unbelievable follow up. Crazy

"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 7:13pm

Views: 12385

Good point.

Which is the main reason I so disliked that part.

Still, Tolkien himself spoils LOTR by revealing in the Prologue that all four hobbits survived, so spoilers would be true to Tolkien.

Imladris18 1
Darkstone 0

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NecromancerRising
Gondor

Apr 24 2014, 7:20pm

Views: 12384

It is much easier than to look at things

with composure,collectedness and a clear presence of mind.Overreaction is easy for everyone.Self-control and temperance is the tricky part.

"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"

Imladris18
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 7:21pm

Views: 12420

I wasn't really trying to be snarky there.

KS is just simply dead set against these movies and thinks they are a disservice to Tolkien.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(This post was edited by Imladris18 on Apr 24 2014, 7:21pm)

Elessar
Valinor

Apr 24 2014, 7:22pm

Views: 12362

It's just what people do

That may not be the case for you but read any online replies or such and people almost always go over the top in their reactions when they don't like something.

SafeUnderHill
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 7:22pm

Views: 12375

There is new music in AUJ EE

There is some new music in the AUJ EE by Howard Shore (that is not in AUJ TE), however most fans had already heard this music on the soundtrack CDs (it is from the Rivendell tracks). The remaining music in the EE was either songs (Man in the moon and Goblintown) or music copied from elsewhere in the TE.

Elessar
Valinor

Apr 24 2014, 7:23pm

Views: 12367

Pretty much

What I was getting at.

Hanzkaz
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 7:23pm

Views: 12378

'There And Back Again' -

- has a meaning for fans familiar with Tolkien's books, but unfortunately it makes a little less sense for those who aren't. The same goes for 'The Desolation of Smaug'. (To be honest, there are people who don't even know what 'desolation' means. That might actually have had an effect on audience numbers. You never know.).

With a title like 'The Battle of Five Armies', people have some idea of what to look forward in the third movie. The battles of Middle-Earth have been a major selling point for the movies, and the new title hints that audiences are about to return to more familiar territory.

___________________________________________________

From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.

(This post was edited by Hanzkaz on Apr 24 2014, 7:31pm)

wonderinglinguist
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 7:29pm

Views: 12377

I'd like to think you weren't :)

but it seems rude to reply to someone's post just to write negatively about them in 3rd person. Crazy

That's all Angelic

keep smiling Smile

glor
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 7:33pm

Views: 12360

Flicking through TORN

..and viewing the high proportion of threads about the 3rd Hobbit film that are actually about BOFA, in fact most threads about the third film are about BOFA makes me wonder if we here, gave PJ the idea.

After all, it's not like anyone is shocked that the battle of the Five Armies is in this film or that it was not going to be a major part of the third film.

I mean it is not like it's being called the Reign of Oakenshield or Thorin lives or the Marriage of Kili and Tauriel

Laugh

Imladris18
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 7:35pm

Views: 12355

My reply was to whoever replied to KS telling them why KS feels the way they do.

That's why Smile

Edit: It was to NecromancerRising.

(This post was edited by Imladris18 on Apr 24 2014, 7:37pm)

NecromancerRising
Gondor

Apr 24 2014, 7:43pm

Views: 12309

I know.

And thanks for the clarification about his feelings towards these movies.Everything became clear to me Smile

"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"

Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 7:44pm

Views: 12367

I leave the boards for ONE day...

Seriously though, this title change disappoints me greatly. It signals to me what has really already been confirmed through the first two films - that these are largely action blockbusters instead of the thoroughly intelligent and emotionally dramatic epics that were the LotR films.

I remember when the two Hobbit films "An Unexpected Journey" and "There and Back Again" were announced, and it filled me with such great joy. It was a signal that PJ & Co. understood Tolkien's small and innocent tale and that the films would honor the spirit of Bilbo's adventure. But, alas, a trilogy, over-the-top action spectaculars, and CGI excess were to follow.

None of this is to say that I haven't enjoyed the films. DoS, in particular, I love as a fun action spectacle. But the films have little spiritual connection to Tolkien's tale and that has taken time for me to get over.

The title "Battle of the Five Armies", while originating from a Hobbit chapter title, signals to me that action is the primary objective in this last film. Alas that it is so.

At least there is the positive news of the EE of DoS - which makes me very happy. Not only for the 25 minutes - but for new material from Howard Shore! That was a major letdown for AUJ EE (especially the tracked bit from FotR Frown

).

Now if we can just get those cast & crew audio commentaries as well...

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen

Captain Salt
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 7:48pm

Views: 12353

How long has it been since creative bankruptcy caught you, Peter?

What was the promised price? When any semblance of coherent storytelling and artistic integrity were gone, you would take your share of the treasure?

Well, whatever. At least we got three wonderful LotR films from this team before PJ went full-on Lucas.

"Not tall, but broad and grim...wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come, we deem."

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Apr 24 2014, 7:49pm)

Estel78
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 7:49pm

Views: 12322

Where was "intelligent and emotionally dramatic epics" in the book?

In fact, that stands in contrast to "Tolkien's small and innocent tale".

So what do you want, one or the other?

Faleel
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 7:50pm

Views: 12310

..

Full-on Lucas? When has he changed his original movies to fit his new vision over and over, and buried the original versions, and only released them in sub-par Laserdisc quality?

Faleel
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 7:51pm

Views: 12291

Yes.

He wants one or the other, instead of neither.

Captain Salt
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 7:52pm

Views: 12314

That's a straw-man...a specific example from one filmmaker one does not instantly validate the qualities of the other. //

"Not tall, but broad and grim...wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come, we deem."

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Apr 24 2014, 7:55pm)

Faleel
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 7:57pm

Views: 12272

..

But it does mean that PJ did not turn into a carbon copy of Lucas.

(This post was edited by Faleel on Apr 24 2014, 7:59pm)

Imladris18
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 7:59pm

Views: 12262

Seems many were expecting another LotR trilogy.

That's something the Hobbit couldn't have possibly ever been. Now we see the disappointment of such individuals who did not accept this from the start.

It's not really fair to label PJ a Lucas when the source material changes between films in the way it does. Many like to claim that there's no heart or substance to the Hobbit movies, but I personally see a lot of heart and substance, perhaps even more than the book offers.

(This post was edited by Imladris18 on Apr 24 2014, 8:00pm)

Estel78
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 8:02pm

Views: 12254

Definitely more than the book offers.

The plight of the dwarves has much more depth than in the book for instance.

Avandel
Half-elven

Apr 24 2014, 8:04pm

Views: 12262

And anyone think the "only 13 minutes" affected sales?

I saw some posts to the effect that it wasn't worth it for 13 minutes - I don't know what to think as I assume it's the Hobbit fans who really want the EE, and would buy irregardless. Or not. I know I questioned whether I should bother for only 13 minutes, but ultimately glad I did and the Appendices were great, well worth it.

Am also a little startled at how far TABA seems to be along as far as being finished? I thought the cut PJ showed WB and the press would be extremely rough, but it sounds as though TABA is farther along than just a mock-up of scenes with a lot of green screens.

"Richard Armitage’s performance has been one of the best things about the new trilogy, making you believe that a hairy dwarf, so often the comedy element of the LOTR films, can be a heroic, tortured, and dangerous badass." - Den of Geek, The Hobbit: There & Back Again, 7 Apr 2014 - 07:07

Captain Salt
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 8:05pm

Views: 12246

And that's not what I said.

I'm not sure how stating PJ'd gone "Full on Lucas", IE saying he was mishandling a prequel trilogy to a beloved fantasy trilogy, was stating he was literally mimicking Lucas' every move or creative decision.

"Not tall, but broad and grim...wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come, we deem."

tsmith675
Gondor

Apr 24 2014, 8:07pm

Views: 10829

Wow that's incredibly harsh.

Way too harsh. It's a freaking name of a film. Relax.

Our destiny lies above us.

Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 8:09pm

Views: 10807

As a matter of fact, I do find the small and innocent tale of Bilbo the Hobbit to be intelligent, emotional, and dramatic.

As for using the word epic, most people misuse the word epic these days to mean "big, gargantuan, etc.". But Bilbo's journey is an epic, in the traditional sense of the word.

But PJ's Hobbit films adhere to the modern sensibilities of "big" films - turn everything into an action sequence with lots and lots of CGI (the biggest offender being the DoS Erebor finale).

It was absolutely possible to maintain the heart and emotion of his LotR films while stylistically adhering to Tolkien's smaller tale.

Again, this makes it sound like I hate the films. I don't at all (my DoS review is practically a rave) - I've just had to adapt my expectations.

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 8:10pm

Views: 10820

Since the opening prologue of FOTR?

A last alliance of Men and Elves marched against the armies of Mordor and on the slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of Middle-earth.

Jackson hasn't changed anymore than Lucas has.

It's we who've changed from innocent wide-eyed acceptance of first-time wonder to cynical critique of things that aren't like we remember them.

Excuse me....

ALL YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!!! AND GET OFF CAPTAIN SALT'S LAWN TOO!!!!

Now where were we?

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(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 24 2014, 8:18pm)

LadyEmmaE
Bree

Apr 24 2014, 8:12pm

Views: 10792

Nice!

Sounds very promising. Can't wait for the EE to be released! Smile

Avandel
Half-elven

Apr 24 2014, 8:12pm

Views: 10789

Agree about the general public

Don't think to many "There and Back Again" would register - but love the idea of that being the name of a 3-box edition and love the idea even more that PJ is THINKING about (hope) a deluxe set (LOL - Can it really be true? Has the Lord of Middle Earth films really planned for my-dreamed of super-director-cut-deluxe-edition, sometime in the future? I can hope! Tongue

)

Yes, a deluxe 3-set (or 6, bundled w. LOTR) nestled into a carved wooden case, with a high-res booklet of photographs and a figure of my choice created by WETA (Thorin, for me). And all the disks w. actual images instead of just plain.

BlackFox
Half-elven

Apr 24 2014, 8:12pm

Views: 10799

I leave the web for a few hours and all hell breaks loose! :D

I must admit I'd grown fond of "There And Back Again", but I also feel I'm warming up to "The Battle of the Five Armies" more and more with every minute that goes by. After all, it's the contents of the film that really matters.

"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau

(This post was edited by BlackFox on Apr 24 2014, 8:16pm)

CathrineB
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 8:15pm

Views: 10765

Alright

I've heard some fans has flipped out a bit over the title change? I liked "There and Back Again", but it's just a title.

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 8:17pm

Views: 10774

Yep, LOTR-Lite

It's what people wanted, it's what people got.

Only a few of us really wanted The Hobbit. Only a few of us wanted the tra-la-lally Elves or talking purses or animals serving food on their hind legs or speaking ravens.

"Wouldn't fit in with the LOTR movies" most people said.

So they got what they wanted and now they complain.

Sheesh....

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Avandel
Half-elven

Apr 24 2014, 8:20pm

Views: 10761

Beautifully said, bravo

"It's not really fair to label PJ a Lucas when the source material changes between films in the way it does. Many like to claim that there's no heart or substance to the Hobbit movies, but I personally see a lot of heart and substance, perhaps even more than the book offers."

There's a reason the Hobbit sat on the shelf when I re-read LOTR roughly once a year. That's not to say there isn't a lot of depth to be found it the Hobbit, but for me it wasn't something I needed to revisit often, and there was a reason I was fairly indifferent when the news came that the Hobbit would be turned into a film.

Now the Hobbit is my favorite movie group, and I'm astounded what PJ & co. were able to build, flesh out, expand on. And the Hobbit book will always be on my shelves (can't say that for any number of books that are slated for a trip to the thrift store). A magical book, and magical films drawn from that book.

Captain Salt
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 8:20pm

Views: 10767

And the quality of debate/conversation

on the boards has kind-of followed the quality of the films.

Did I mention PJ "changing anything"? I believe my exact phrases were "creative bankruptcy" and lack of artistic integrity, ETC, making the movies the anti-LotR in terms of narrative, characterization, and general quality. Nowhere I did list the general purist complaints. But nice strawman, again.

"Not tall, but broad and grim...wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come, we deem."

Estel78
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 8:21pm

Views: 10772

People have been accusing PJ of turning everything into an action scene since LOTR

In parts Hobbit actually does emanate heart and emotion, more so than the book, but the source material just doesn't offer that much in that regard, at least not until the end.

I feel like sometimes people are seeing the book through rose colored glasses.

Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 8:25pm

Views: 10752

Well...

...since I just read the book a couple months ago, I would disagree with the rose colored glasses comment. So I'll just agree to disagree on what the book offers.

NecromancerRising
Gondor

Apr 24 2014, 8:27pm

Views: 10756

Exaggeration,Overreaction,

Hybris,Cynicism and nothing more.I did mention these "virtues" before and it is funny how quickly and easily can be applied to some opinions here.

IT'S ONLY A TITLE. Crazy

"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"

Estel78
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 8:28pm

Views: 10741

If you begin your conversation with a post like yours...

... you should have expected some of the reactions you got.

DanielLB
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 8:34pm

Views: 10729

I think so too.

In Reply To

And the quality of debate/conversation on the boards has kind-of followed the quality of the films.

The quality of the conversation across the boards has *risen*, hasn't it?

(This post was edited by DanielLB on Apr 24 2014, 8:38pm)

Captain Salt
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 8:36pm

Views: 10708

LOL! Yeah, it's verboten to post anything

other than the usual hyperbole about TH films being the greatest achievement in the history of cinema.

"Not tall, but broad and grim...wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come, we deem."

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 8:37pm

Views: 10688

Did I mention you mentioning PJ "Changing anything"?

In Reply To

And the quality of debate/conversation on the boards has kind-of followed the quality of the films.

Did I mention PJ "changing anything"? I believe my exact phrases were "creative bankruptcy" and lack of artistic integrity, ETC, making the movies the anti-LotR in terms of narrative, characterization, and general quality. Nowhere I did list the general purist complaints. But nice strawman, again.

You said:

How long has it been since creative bankruptcy caught you, Peter?

I replied:

Jackson hasn't changed....

You then replied:

Did I mention PJ "changing anything"?

No you didn't, and I didn't say you did.

Is it really too much to ask for you to actually READ my post before your respond to it?

Misquoting is a fallacy as well.

And reading comprehension is a virtue.

If you're just going to make up stuff and say I said it, do you really need me in this discussion? Maybe I could save time and just let you argue with yourself!

(I can hardly wait to see what you say I said next!)

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Captain Salt
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 8:37pm

Views: 10674

Seemingly not, as your "question" was just posted as a "statement". //

"Not tall, but broad and grim...wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come, we deem."

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 8:39pm

Views: 10679

This is what you call irony. /

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NecromancerRising
Gondor

Apr 24 2014, 8:40pm

Views: 10699

A bit of hyperbole here isn't it?

I have never ever seen a post claiming that the Hobbit films are what you describe.I wonder where that..."usual" derives from.Oh wait... Cool

"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"

Estel78
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 8:40pm

Views: 10666

There's a big gap...

...between greatest achievement in the history of cinema and creative bankruptcy, don't you think?

Your post was not a quality post that you seem to demand of others.

tsmith675
Gondor

Apr 24 2014, 8:40pm

Views: 10671

I was wondering what he was referring to, as well.

I didn't know if he was replying to you, or someone else; I wasn't sure. He's getting all picky about the discussion on this board going downhill, and it basically seems like he's just picking fights. That's not very kindly, if you ask me.

Our destiny lies above us.

Imladris18
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 8:41pm

Views: 10682

It's almost like he straw man'd all of TORN.

Haven't seen this much passion in a while. It's kinda intense.

(This post was edited by Imladris18 on Apr 24 2014, 8:42pm)

BlackFox
Half-elven

Apr 24 2014, 8:42pm

Views: 10680

*gets popcorn, sits back and watches the drama unfold*

This thread will be my dose of entertainment tonight! Laugh

"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 8:43pm

Views: 10671

Yep.

We old people get all confused sometimes.

Of course the way he's been overusing the phrase he might be a college freshman who just learned about the strawman fallacy. "There's no one as arrogant as a young man who's just discovered an old truth."

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(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 24 2014, 8:46pm)

Avandel
Half-elven

Apr 24 2014, 8:44pm

Views: 10760

IMO that's kind of harsh

"A perfect title thrown out the window in order to attract the masses with promises of overblown action.
That's why it was changed. Make no mistake.
They should have just called it "The Hobbit: One last attempt to make more money by appealing to the lowest common denominator"."

Not saying you're wrong, I just don't think it's that terrible. Or that it's terrible that both LOTR and the Hobbit made a healthy profit and yet so much is true, or pays respect to, the source. If WB etc. were really appealing to the lowest common denominator I'm sure they would have hooked Thorin up w. some female who happens to have a big chest and looks "hot", Kili and Tauriel would already have been making hay so to speak, Gandalf would have invented explosives and there would be a lot more fight scenes, the dwarves would all look like male models, and Bilbo and Smaug would have become good friends w. Smaug giving rides to the kiddies *sniff*.

The argument canon vs. not has gone round and round, but even PJ has said - and I can't remember if he was talking about AUJ or FOTR - that if they had failed, w. the second films he wouldn't have had to worry so much essentially. There's a burden of sorts that comes w. worldwide success, and from the sound of it re TABA, PJ is already feeling the heat of fan expectations. So there's a title that instantly tells ALL the public a pinnacle within the film - actually IMO it's wise in general to have a title for a book or film that denotes a meaning of some kind. I don't consider "There and Back Again" to be a perfect title, unless you have read the book and understand all the nuances (e.g. to me it's more than an actual journey, it's Bilbo's emotional arc "and if you return, you will not be the same". But I wouldn't know that if I hadn't read the book). The Battle of the Five Armies to me might not be the most interesting title in the world, but it certainly tells me immediately something of what to expect.

Also, no PR campaign is just going to have Bilbo skipping happily back to his hobbit-hole. It's going to have (possibly) themes of madness, war, sorrow, danger - so the title needs to tie into that.

book Gandalf
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 8:47pm

Views: 10754

themes

the problem with BO5A is that it reeks of action flick. TABA at least nodded towards the books little guy on a journey against all odds type story.

but at some point you have to accept these films have none of the themes of the book, on the surface it is the hobbit but the book is more about words and cunning and cleverness, the films are about weapons and explosions and set pieces. fine, bring it on, but dont pretend this is really the against all odds story of 'the hobbit'

This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party.

DanielLB
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 8:47pm

Views: 10748

It's a good job that there are 10 other boards on the forum...

Where you can find perfect grammar and high quality conversations taking place.

Kangi Ska
Half-elven

Apr 24 2014, 8:49pm

Views: 10816

Please Read My 9,600+ Posts

I have never been dead set against the Hobbit movies. I am sorry you consider my recent posts "Dramatic" for they are honest expressions of my growing disappointment with what Peter has done. It is not the disservice to Tolkien that bothers me. It is the over stuffed adaptation of the story that is told by "The Hobbit".
I could list all of what I do not find acceptable but this would only be a reiteration of complaints made by others here on this forum. KS

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Apr 24 2014, 8:51pm)

NecromancerRising
Gondor

Apr 24 2014, 8:50pm

Views: 10741

That is true.

You can only imagine what is going to happen when the final Middle Earth movie is released Laugh

"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"

Captain Salt
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 8:50pm

Views: 10745

And yet

every single even slightly derogatory (or sometimes not even particularly derogatory) remark about the TH films has increasingly been responded to with the same outrage, dismissal and blaming of the poster. So no, I haven't. And "Intense" isn't the adjective I would have gone with this trend, though it does indeed start with the same letter.

"Not tall, but broad and grim...wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come, we deem."

Kangi Ska
Half-elven

Apr 24 2014, 8:55pm

Views: 10748

It would be inappropriate

if they do not go home again. A Three hour battle doesn't leave much time for the journey back to Hobbiton. KS

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Captain Salt
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 8:55pm

Views: 10729

And

I recall being one of the biggest cheerleaders of TH films before the trilogy decision, attempting to explain to posters who were bemoaning little details or complete unknowns (IE the crap in Radagast's hair or the existence of Itaril/Tauriel) that we should reserve judgement considering the job that was done by PJ and company with LotR. Funny, that, I believe goes the expression.

"Not tall, but broad and grim...wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come, we deem."

Imladris18
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 8:57pm

Views: 10736

My apologies.

I must be confusing you with another poster who literally is dead set against anything related to a Hobbit movie and is quite dramatic about it.

You just seem to not deem PJ's changes as a good thing and tend to lean towards a "truer" book adaptation, yes?

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 8:57pm

Views: 10691

I'm hoping.....

...he gets to the "Argumentum ex Silentio" section of his textbook really soon.

******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 9:06pm

Views: 10672

"Reductio ad absurdum "

In Reply To

And yet every single even slightly derogatory (or sometimes not even particularly derogatory) remark about the TH films has increasingly been responded to with the same outrage, dismissal and blaming of the poster. So no, I haven't.

(Emphasis mine.)

"every"? Exaggerate much?

In Reply To

And "Intense" isn't the adjective I would have gone with this trend, though it does indeed start with the same letter.

And an "Ad hominem" to boot!!

You're doing well! Can't wait for the contextomy!!

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https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah

Imladris18
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 9:08pm

Views: 10684

But, that's not true.

There are many of us who have expressed many disappointments, shortcomings, etc with the films, and have done so civilly without triggering a firefight.

You implied that PJ&Co did LotR right, but now are artistically bankrupt. This implies that PJ&Co have "changed" from quality filmmakers to artistically bankrupt like the likes of Michael Bay or Lucas. Darkstone brought up how even in the PROLOGUE for LotR there were some less-than-artistic genius lines, implying that perhaps he hasn't really "changed" a whole lot.

I'm not sure why this particular issue sparked this flurry of angry remarks.

Edit: I think it's still possible to be artistic while including (seemingly negative) buzzwords such as: spectacle, blockbuster, action-packed, heavy CGI, fun. The CGI, for instance, takes a ton of skilled work and IS an art medium in itself.

(This post was edited by Imladris18 on Apr 24 2014, 9:18pm)

Kangi Ska
Half-elven

Apr 24 2014, 9:12pm

Views: 10697

I would feel better

if Peter were telling the story that is in the book. I would not even mind additions and embellishments if they were not done at the expense of the "story" of the Hobbit. I fear Peter has lost his way in his own vision and it looks like he probably find the right path in the upcoming movie, what ever its name. KS

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 9:22pm

Views: 10630

Yep.

Glad somebody understood what I posted.

I mean, I love the films and I think PJ did good.

I have no idea what CS is on about.

Maybe it's just past his bedtime and he needs his winkie.

******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah

(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 24 2014, 9:24pm)

Imladris18
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 9:25pm

Views: 10641

Ah, okay. Fair enough.

I, personally, still see much of the book in the films, and in places I think it even improves on it, but that's just my opinion. The only major gripe I really have so far is the final cat-and-mouse Smaug chase shenanigans at the end of DoS. I wished they would've stuck a little closer to the book on that.

(This post was edited by Imladris18 on Apr 24 2014, 9:25pm)

Estel78
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 9:26pm

Views: 10638

Didn't mind that at all

I did mind the healing scene, though.

Eruvandi
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 9:26pm

Views: 10592

For the longest time...

Quote

BTW I was always confused with these acronyms, I read TABA as The Battle of 5 Armies, and get used to call the 3rd film like that while speaking and thinking. I remembered about There and Back Again only when I run into BOFA (like "oh yes, this is the acronym for the army thing, not TABA!"). I hope it will bring more people to the cinemas, to prove WB and other studios that it is worth to make films about Middle Earth.

...I used to read TABA as To Be Announced, but I couldn't figure out what the extra "A" stood for. Wink

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 9:39pm

Views: 10587

Well...

...I've always found the book immensely tragic. Bilbo loses so much. It seems like parts of him die during each stage of the journey. If he was a young hobbit the changes wouldn't be so bad. But the entire book seems like it's all about the old Bilbo dying. It makes me sad.

I can see how Tolkien might indeed have intended a deeper adult subtext what with his own entrance into middle age.

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Imladris18
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 9:43pm

Views: 10587

See, I didn't have a huge issue with it. It was a bit awkward, but I liked the ambiguity of how Tauriel felt at the end there.

I mean, I don't hate it. The engineer in me just has a hard time dealing with Thorin strolling down molten gold in a metal wheelbarrow and not getting toasted alive lol.

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 9:43pm

Views: 10645

On the other hand...

...when the first Sil movie is released the exact same people will be going "How could Jackson have so totally messed it up? The Hobbit movies were PERFECT!!!"

I guarantee it. I saw it happen with LOTR.

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Patty
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 9:47pm

Views: 10672

Not happy.

This seems further away from the "feel" of Tolkien and closer to a title that might sell movie tickets to the public that hadn't read the books. Oh well, I will see it regardless.

Permanent address: Into the West

Azimuth
The Shire

Apr 24 2014, 9:55pm

Views: 10620

I wasn't here at the time of LOTR

But while reading Boards now (I started this year) I suspected that the same things were written about LOTR Smile

And that now the same people are praising LOTR in contradiction to The Hobbit.

Quote

I understand that. I was disappointed after watching TT and ROTK (I liked FOTR because I read the book after seeing it in cinema). But after few months I started to like it and now I love those films.

Lio
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 9:57pm

Views: 10626

One "the" too many

Oddly enough, that was one of my first impressions after learning about the new title.

"The Hobbit: The Battle of ~~the~~ Five Armies"

There, I've fixed it! Laugh

On a less nitpicky note, I'm actually happy with the change and agree with PJ's reasons for it. "There and Back Again" is a lovely title but just doesn't fit with the third movie. It's better as a subtitle for the trilogy as a whole, I think.

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." — Dean O'Gorman (Fili)

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!

Lio
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 9:59pm

Views: 10610

Okay, I'll bite

Which one would Tolkien have chosen and how do we know this? Tongue

Azimuth
The Shire

Apr 24 2014, 10:00pm

Views: 10618

What is wrong with that?

I think it's good that something connected with professor Tolkien will be presented to a wider audience. It will increase the chances that people who are not familiar with his books will start to read them.

Quote

This seems further away from the "feel" of Tolkien and closer to a title that might sell movie tickets to the public that hadn't read the books. Oh well, I will see it regardless.

Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 10:00pm

Views: 11557

That's true for some, not all.

I was enchanted with LotR from the very first frame. I came out of the theater with my heart soaring. The same was true for TTT & RotK.

But I get what you're saying. These boards (and many others) were certainly populated with a large amount of criticism (though it certainly didn't seem to be shared by the general public or the critical community).

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 10:04pm

Views: 11548

A belated welcome!

Glad to have you here.

(And I'm thinking a lot of the "the original Star Wars trilogy was PERFECT!" people will similarly change their stance about the prequels once Star Wars VII comes out.)

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Magpie
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 10:06pm

Views: 11546

just not true

Quote

I have made a number of posts expressing my disappointment in the films including all the faults I found with them. Only one has been met with resistance that I found unaccepting. Replies to the rest were all perfectly respectful and calm.

So either you're honestly mistaken in your assessment (which you could admit to) or perhaps this is just hyperbole to engage a more um.. 'spirited' debate. :-)

LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide

Patty
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 10:07pm

Views: 11555

Me, I would rather see a movie

That stresses the heart of the story and is not aiming to make battles the prominent feature. Hopefully when the movie comes out that wont be the case but the title change IMHO is not a step in the right direction.

Permanent address: Into the West

Elizabeth
Half-elven

Apr 24 2014, 10:07pm

Views: 11622

It's a sellout because...

...it represents a total change in emphasis, from Bilbo's journey of change and enlightenment to yet another shallow fan-boy action thriller. I am very disappointed (though not entirely surprised).

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 10:11pm

Views: 11557

Letter #202

From a letter to Christopher and Faith Tolkien

11 September 1957

My heart and mind is in the Silmarillion, but I have not had much time for it. ....
It may amuse you to hear that (unsolicited) I suddenly found myself the winner of the International Fantasy Award, presented (as it says) 'as a fitting climax to the Fifteenth World Science Fiction Convention'. What it boiled down to was a lunch at the Criterion yesterday with speeches, and the handing over of an absurd 'trophy'. A massive metal 'model' of an upended Space-rocket (combined with a Ronson lighter). But the speeches were far more intelligent, especially that of the introducer: Clémence Dane, a massive woman of almost Sitwellian presence. Sir Stanley himself was present. Not having any immediate use for the trophy (save publicity=sales=cash) I deposited it in the window of 40 Museum Street. A back-wash from the Convention was a visit from an American film-agent (one of the adjudicating panel) who drove out all the way in a taxi from London to see me last week, filling 76 S[andfield] with strange men and stranger women -1 thought the taxi would never stop disgorging. But this Mr Ackerman brought some really astonishingly good pictures (Rackham rather than Disney) and some remarkable colour photographs. They have apparently toured America shooting mountain and desert scenes that seem to fit the story. The Story Line or Scenario was, however, on a lower level. In fact bad. But it looks as if business might be done. Stanley U. &: I have agreed on our policy : Art or Cash. Either very profitable terms indeed ; or absolute author's veto on objectionable features or alterations.
-JRR Tolkien

The Ackerman deal eventually fell through, but in the end he did sell the rights for cash and, as we know, by those terms the Tolkien Estate has no say in the films.

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Leaf of Mirkwood
Bree

Apr 24 2014, 10:13pm

Views: 11549

Yaay!!

Lots of DOS Extended footage!! Laugh

So glad its going to be a good amount of extra!

Eruvandi
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 10:13pm

Views: 11560

It might have.

Quote

But I think the confusion about the MANY the different versions of the AUJ EE that were available and the MANY different places where you could only get ONE of the versions, may have contributed to it too. Wink

I've never had to use a chart to figure out which version of a DVD to buy before. Crazy

I still bought it though, and I'm glad I did.

I'll buy the DOS EE too, but I sure hope they limit the versions that are available. I mean, for crying out loud, why can't they just make all of the different formats identical and make them all available at all of the retailers? That's got to be easier than all of the "who-shot-john" they went through last time. Unimpressed

Quote

Am also a little startled at how far TABA seems to be along as far as being finished? I thought the cut PJ showed WB and the press would be extremely rough, but it sounds as though TABA is farther along than just a mock-up of scenes with a lot of green screens.

I've never understood all of the things that have to be done to make a movie, but I figure that anything they're showing WB at this point is probably an extremely rough cut. They may have a lot of the green screen stuff worked out, but even then it's probably just placeholder imagery until the final product is ready.

I'd say it's like if you compare the DOS trailer footage to the final movie. They have backgrounds in place so that they have something to show people, but by the time the movie is ready to be released, they've replaced a lot of it with different, more touched-up backgrounds.

TheSexyBeard
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 10:15pm

Views: 11561

This threads gone nutz.

I think I prefferred "There and Back Again" as the original title but I can understand the logic of the change. It would be nice if "There and Back Again" is spoken in the film or in the very least used as the title of a DVD boxset like Jackson suggested.

I don't see how changing the title is selling out or Un-Tolkien "Battle of the Five Armies" suggests action, but atleast it hasn't been named anything more generic or unrelated. We actually got a phrase by Tolkien in the title. If it had been named something like "The Hobbit: Total War" or something I think I could understand the outrage better but each to their own, different strokes for different folks and all that.

Yes, my username is terrible.

Thranderz
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 10:25pm

Views: 11537

I agree

I don't see how so many people are actually criticising the film over a name change. Since when did a movie title affect it's content?

I simply walked into Mordor.

dormouse
Half-elven

Apr 24 2014, 10:27pm

Views: 11531

hopes for a share of the popcorn

It's a bit like poking an ant's nest with a stick, isn't it.....

I've just finished writing a book, sort of. Hope to print it out tomorrow. I have a title. Publisher doesn't like it, wants another title. I shrugged shoulders, used my title for the final chapter (while quietly hoping to convert him once he's read the book. But if I can't, I can't. Funny things, titles..... It is the same book, though. I'm betting it's going to be the same film, too.

I've got used to TABA... but it's not as if 'The Battle of the Five Armies' isn't from Tolkien as well. I expect we'll all live...

Eruvandi
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 10:30pm

Views: 11506

Lol. I think I'll join you.

Here. I brought some soda to help wash the popcorn down.

Help yourself. Smile

Elessar
Valinor

Apr 24 2014, 10:33pm

Views: 11509

Highly disagree

These are so far from action blockbusters. I kind of find that to be a fairly silly comment. There has been plenty emotion to it for lots of folks like myself. These were never going to be as dramatic as The Lord of the Rings and I would expect people should really have understood that going in.

They have honored that exactly and have had some action. Sure a few OTT moments but lets not use hyperbole to make it more than it is. I'm sure there are plenty of people that feel the same but I can assure you as a fellow fan there is plenty of Tolkien's take there and the emotion that comes with that.

How do we know that's all it signals? We haven't seen the movie yet. I'm sure there will be plenty of action but there will be a mix of other stuff as well.

I loved the tracked bits from FOTR. The blending of the music has been amazing.

Eruvandi
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 10:35pm

Views: 11492

So true.

Quote

You can't judge a book by its cover and you can't judge a movie by its title either. It's the content that's really important.

Congratulations on finishing your book, btw. I bet it took a lot of hard work! Good luck with the rest of the publishing process. Cool

Elessar
Valinor

Apr 24 2014, 10:35pm

Views: 11506

Ah yes

The lame Lucas comments. As someone said he's no place close to Lucas and saying he really makes it hard to take one seriously.

The Ranger Anduiel
The Shire

Apr 24 2014, 10:37pm

Views: 11510

One must look at how this could benefit us ringers...

The Hobbit trilogy yes I could go on for hours about the mistakes/changes, and yet I still love them. I mean who didn't tear up with shear bittersweet joy when AUJ opened with the Ian Holm sequence. Knowing that although it was not going to be perfect we had waited so long!
I digress, so the title is more catchy for casual movie goers and doesn't sing to us the way TABA does or inspire those bittersweet tears again, and yes it lacks heart, but we are getting even more ME more of the world and stories we love ( even if we are forced to ignore the faults, that is okay because the changes can never take my ME from me).
I would be lying if I didn't say that the prospect of what they will do with the third installment hasn't caused stress. But if this title brings in more movie goers, more money etc then we have a greater chance of the studio saying "hey Peter, we did so well with both trilogies we really think you should give the Silm a go!" And though we will have opinions on that as well, we will have more ME! More Tolkien! I suppose that is just how I look at it and though it may sound like selling out on the title; the movie will always be The Hobbit TABA to me. Besides it is the least of our problems when it comes to AUG and DOS but that is another post...or many.

Just a humble opinion from a 15 year lurker who finally got brave enough to
post Smile

(This post was edited by The Ranger Anduiel on Apr 24 2014, 10:41pm)

Lio
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 10:38pm

Views: 11514

Hmm!

I wouldn't go so far as to say which Tolkien would have chosen based on this (it seems he was only presented with the "cash" option here!), but this is an interesting piece of info! I wonder if there's a surviving script or story outline of the planned movie locked away in a vault somewhere? Tongue

Escapist
Gondor

Apr 24 2014, 10:40pm

Views: 11501

much will be determined on the editing room floor

but this name change could signify an increase in the build up to the Bo5A leaving less time left over for the journey home (at least in the theatrical).

If all the world's a stage then who's writing the script?

SirDennisC
Half-elven

Apr 24 2014, 10:41pm

Views: 11529

Called another one!

Suggested "Battle of Five Armies" for film 3 back in July 2012. (Link)

"There and Back Again" always seemed a better (sub?) title for the entire trilogy.

(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Apr 24 2014, 10:44pm)

NecromancerRising
Gondor

Apr 24 2014, 10:45pm

Views: 11561

I disagree.

The content of the movie will be exactly the same even if it bore the title TABA.The emphasis would be the same as the scenes have already filmed.The Battle of 5 Armies was always going to be the center of gravity and the ultimate climax of this trilogy.And when i say BO5A i do not only refer to the battle itself but to everything surrounding it.The death of Smaug,the setup,the negotiations,the actual battle,and the aftermath which also includes the journey back home of Bilbo.

P.S.We have already seen Bilbo changing in the first 2 films and i am completely sure that we are going to witness more of how that journey affected him in the third movie.

P.S.1.Did Return of the King emphasize only on this event?Absolutely not.Did the Two Towers emphasize on them?Absolutely not.A change of title doesn't equal to change of the material.It is only marketing.Nothing more,nothing less."There and Back Again" was always the perfect title for the whole trilogy but not for any of the movies individually.

"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"

Bishop
Gondor

Apr 24 2014, 10:48pm

Views: 11526

That's the absolute reality, though

It's Peter Jackson, and this is a battle with five armies. He will spend over half the film on it. Who doesn't expect him to deliver on overblown action?

Quote

A perfect title thrown out the window in order to attract the masses with promises of overblown action.

imin
Valinor

Apr 24 2014, 10:52pm

Views: 11529

Howard Shore good news

I'm pleased to read there will be more HS music, the extra 25 mins of DOS im not too bothered about.

Name change of TABA - i prefer TABA but i think BoFA is more fitting for these action blockbuster films as i can see PJ spending about 1/2 the film on the battle so it is probably a more appropriate title for this individual film with TABA used for the over arching title for the full trilogy. At the end of the day it is only a name change, the content of the film will remain the same.

All posts are to be taken as my opinion.

Eruvandi
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 10:53pm

Views: 11532

Congrats on coming out of lurkdom!

And I agree with much of what you said, even though I haven't even been a fan as long as you have. Actually, I agree especially because I haven't been a fan as long as you have. I just discovered the wonders of ME both in the books and on film last year. I don't want it to be over yet and I'm glad that we are able to have as much of it on screen as we do, even with the "faults". And even though it will probably be a pretty long time before the rights to Silm are sold, if they ever get sold at all, I'd love to see it come to life on screen as well (TV mini-series! *crosses fingers*). Especially now that I've finally manage to find a copy of my own and will be able to read it for myself soon.

Again, congrats on coming out of lurkdom! You did an excellent first post, IMO. Smile

Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 10:53pm

Views: 11522

Just to clarify...

...calling the films "action blockbusters" is not meant to be as derogatory as it sounds. I speak more of the kind of movie like Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl, The Avengers, etc. and less Transformers, 300, etc.

In all honesty, I know I'm coming off a lot more negative that I have any desire to. I've enjoyed the films quite a lot. It's just that I struggled to deal with the stylistic, visual, and dramatic differences of An Unexpected Journey from both the LotR films and the original novel - as well as some adaptation choices that have never quite worked for me (Azog, in particular). My response to The Desolation of Smaug benefited from my altered expectations - but whenever I go back and watch The Lord of the Rings (as I did just the other night), I'm reminded of how extraordinary those films are on a dramatic, technical, and overall cinematic level. Naturally, what follows is me waxing poetic about what I originally desired for the Hobbit films - smaller in scale and scope, but retaining the same emotional core (which is not to say I think PJ's Hobbit films are devoid of emotion - just to clear that up).

Elessar
Valinor

Apr 24 2014, 10:57pm

Views: 11498

I do as well

Of course there are changes but there is plenty of the book there. At least I feel that way. Cool

Intergalactic Lawman
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 11:00pm

Views: 10889

Peter Lucas!

Oh boy...indecisive much?

Oh well, truth be told I much prefer the new title BUT nothing will save these films...nothing. Horrible cgi infested garbage!

Though you don't think so because of our "love everything pj does bubble" these films will be treated exactly as the sw prequels -they will be forgotten and mocked by all but a few die hards.

What a waste... Mad

(This post was edited by Avnar on Apr 24 2014, 11:03pm)

Skaan
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 11:02pm

Views: 10872

Comedy gold

The Ranger Anduiel
The Shire

Apr 24 2014, 11:04pm

Views: 10830

Thankyou!

And I just *face palmed* I forgot about the rights!

Enjoy reading the Silm it's a rougher one than The Hobbit or LOTR but worth it!

And welcome to Middle Earth! There is no place better and you won't find a better group of people, save for maybe the Green dragon haha.

Elessar
Valinor

Apr 24 2014, 11:06pm

Views: 10873

The Hobbit is still that

And far from some fanboy action thriller. The hyperbole used by some is really eye rolling.

Elessar
Valinor

Apr 24 2014, 11:11pm

Views: 10845

Got ya

I follow ya now. That makes more sense and I will be less disagreeable to the say something like the first pirates film. Though, I still think these films have plenty of the emotions that I love from the book.

I do understand. I love these Hobbit films but I think the LOTR films are better. They do come from better material overall I think so that does help.

Hope I didn't come across to grumpy. It's just I find these Hobbit films less fun to talk about as things have gone on.

SirDennisC
Half-elven

Apr 24 2014, 11:14pm

Views: 10822

The Hobbit: Total War? I'd play that

Total War being my favourite game franchise and all...

Magpie
Immortal

Apr 24 2014, 11:17pm

Views: 10810

Better than Reality TV //

LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide

Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator

Apr 24 2014, 11:51pm

Views: 10829

A reminder to discuss the topic, and not make digs at each other.

A subthread with personal attacks has been removed from this discussion. Please keep the discussion about the film and not each other.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.

Ataahua's stories

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 25 2014, 12:18am

Views: 10771

Welcome!

I just *knew* there was somebody out there...watching..

I could feel it....

Anyway, this is a good start but you've got 15 years of posting to catch up on! Looking forward to more!

******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah

The Ranger Anduiel
The Shire

Apr 25 2014, 12:34am

Views: 10765

ha!

No worries my archive on you isn't THAT large.

Kangi Ska
Half-elven

Apr 25 2014, 12:41am

Views: 10817

Elizabeth is sincere

You accuse people of hyperbole because you would diminish the value of their fairly expressed feelings. KS

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 25 2014, 12:52am

Views: 10747

So.

You *do* have an archive on me!

I knew it!

Wink

******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah

Kangi Ska
Half-elven

Apr 25 2014, 12:54am

Views: 10768

Exageration, Hubris,Cynicism and nothing more.

How quick to cast stones.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Apr 25 2014, 12:59am)

Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 12:55am

Views: 10759

Impressive

But not surprising, for one of your discernment. Smile

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire

Kangi Ska
Half-elven

Apr 25 2014, 12:57am

Views: 10753

Some view the name change

as a sign of the final product's emphasis: all battle, no return to Hobbiton. KS

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Kangi Ska
Half-elven

Apr 25 2014, 1:12am

Views: 10738

Oh I do agree.//

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Kangi Ska
Half-elven

Apr 25 2014, 1:16am

Views: 10736

Sir D., you make my day.//

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Lindele
Gondor

Apr 25 2014, 1:16am

Views: 10740

Some have been

talking doomsday since the first Hobbit rumors came out years ago and have been determined to be proven right ever since, even if their speculation was in fact proven wrong (as it most often was).

Joe B.
The Shire

Apr 25 2014, 1:21am

Views: 10752

it sounds like a title for a video game

which is pretty much what these movies have become

Imladris18
Lorien

Apr 25 2014, 1:43am

Views: 10741

Fun and entertaining?

Sign me up.

Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 1:49am

Views: 10718

Wow! Is it free-beer night at Barli? Or just Bilbo opening the door to a tumble of dwarves?

I leave for a few hours and come back to a HIVE! So now we can move on with TH3 and stop fretting about the DOS EE's length. And let's not forget: thanks to the Grey Pilgrim for breaking this, even before it got on the TORn homepage. Great work!

'And so: "The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies" it is.'
The "the" in the new title implies there are only 5 armies, doesn't it? To avoid confusion around these parts, BotFA=TH3: The movie coming out this December, BoFA=teh event?

The movie is pretty much made at the this point. In fact it was probably decided with the pickups last year. So I agree with those who believe the title is marketing-directed, not story or story alteration.

'As Professor Tolkien intended, “There and Back Again” encompasses Bilbo’s entire adventure, so don’t be surprised if you see it used on a future box-set of all three movies.'
Can't wait. The logic for the title change makes sense. But by box-set, what does it mean? Director's cut of the trilogy? More extras? Alternate retelling/editiion/plots?

'And there’s also The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug Extended Cut, which we’re in the process of finishing, with over 25 mins of new scenes, all scored with original music composed by Howard Shore.'
I'm holding PJ to that "over 25mins", especially the "over" bit please.

Still, after the meagre 13 we got for AUJ I am cautiously optimistic about getting the good stuff. Except for the truly obvious bits in that EE, I could barely discern where the extensions were, unlike the LotR EEs. Mad

And my sis kept asking me if we're sure we got the right one.

I want the character stuff, and please no extensions for that she-elf or that 3-sided relationship thingy unless it's necessary!

'It’ll be a fun year!'
So much to look forward to!

Better get your last word in before the mods lock this Precious, folks!

Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.

Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III

(This post was edited by Lurker in the Mirk on Apr 25 2014, 1:55am)

Elessar
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 1:50am

Views: 10740

I use the term

because its apt for the description of the post I was commenting to. There is nothing more nefarious to what I meant other than that. I've seen most of her posts and she tends to be a fairly kind person but kind people can use hyperbole.

(This post was edited by Elessar on Apr 25 2014, 1:52am)

Glassary
Rivendell

Apr 25 2014, 1:50am

Views: 10726

Overall I'm o.k. with this change

I've always felt that TABA was a better title for the overall trilogy arc.
So basically changing the name to what the film is going to be about
seems a bit more logical.
Also I can see PJ and the studios using the TABA name for complete
trilogy sets in the future.

Glad we get more Howard Shore scoring and what looks to be 25 min of
additional footage for the EE.

While I do at times have mixed feelings about what can appear to be the
money grab I understand it. Without the LOTR films making alot of $$
there would be no Hobbit films. Backers done put up the funds unless they
see themselves getting something back.

Joe B.
The Shire

Apr 25 2014, 2:07am

Views: 10717

sometimes

but, like most video games, only rarely provocative, moving, or memorable

Rembrethil
Tol Eressea

Apr 25 2014, 2:08am

Views: 10714

I'll take the Dr. Pepper

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?

(This post was edited by Rembrethil on Apr 25 2014, 2:08am)

Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 2:12am

Views: 8962

Good call //

Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.

Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III

Magpie
Immortal

Apr 25 2014, 2:19am

Views: 8982

what part is hyperbole

I would want to know what I might express that would seem sincere to me and hyperbolic to someone else.

I didn't sense any hyperbole in her comment.

LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide

Elessar
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 2:39am

Views: 8973

Calling it

a fanboy action thriller. Just because it has some action in it even a little more than the LOTR doesn't make it a fanboy action thriller. I'd give ya the Transformers films or something like that but not these films. Or even some of the Lucas stuff I find to be bordering on Hyperbole. The movie has action and CGI but neither are those comments.

(This post was edited by Elessar on Apr 25 2014, 2:40am)

Bombadil
Half-elven

Apr 25 2014, 2:49am

Views: 8943

Can we turn this WHOLE Thread into a Mini-SERIES?//

SirDennisC
Half-elven

Apr 25 2014, 2:52am

Views: 8925

You honour me.

Thank you Sir V. Smile

... and Lurker too. Smile

Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 3:03am

Views: 8925

And it will be titled "The War Addressing The Revisions And Titles") or thWaRT for short //

Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.

Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III

Magpie
Immortal

Apr 25 2014, 3:11am

Views: 8944

ah, thanks.

I wouldn't have used that term. (I hate the term fanboy and fangirl)

It's such a treacherous path... finding a way to express what can often be heartfelt opinions without treading on the toes of those who disagree with our opinions. I often look at past history and cut some people a lot of slack... and other people no slack at all.

I, personally, would cut Elizabeth a lot of slack for her use of the term. I don't think she tosses those terms around loosely. Or at least not in my observation.

LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide

dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator

Apr 25 2014, 3:15am

Views: 8931

Nice! Root beer for me, please.

We playground monitors do appreciate some refreshment. Wink

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 3:21am

Views: 8956

Seriously, I do feel people should relax a little... especially when you think about the Transformers

Afterall, unlike the Decepticons and Autobots, the LotR and TH movies did not get Michael Bayed or have some similar tragedy inflicted on them. That is something to be thankful for.

And I am not saying this lightly. I grew up watching the Transformers cartoon, and I LOVED those robots. I was so looking forward to seeing a live-action movie on them. Yeah, the visuals were great, but since the first Bay Transformers, I have not watched any other Transformer movie. Yes, they are THAT bad. By comparison, even the cartoon series and the animated "Transformers: The Movie" (1986) are masterpieces. I wished time could be turned back and the Bay movies wiped out of existence, but keep the transformer visuals. Tongue

Elessar
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 3:25am

Views: 8945

Agreed

I don't care for the term either. Its one that can be as far as pop culture go fairly offensive.

It is. I know I try and fail at times with my own wording. I guess I've grown a little worn out with some of the ways people use certain terms.

I agree and I'm not really upset with her. I was actually surprised she would use a term like that to be honest especially when referring to it as selling out, which I totally disagree with.

Magpie
Immortal

Apr 25 2014, 3:30am

Views: 8918

The Turtles are next. //

LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide

Elessar
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 3:34am

Views: 8910

Transformers

The Transformers movies have all been for me what I expected. So I haven't walked away upset with them. They're not gonna win oscars for acting or anything but I've found all of them enjoyable but the are just plain cheese flicks that you sit back and give yourself a brain break. I find nothing like that at all in the same universe when it comes to The Hobbit.

Imladris18
Lorien

Apr 25 2014, 3:35am

Views: 8909

I think BotFA has the best chance to hit all those marks if the previous 2 have not done so for you yet.

Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea

Apr 25 2014, 3:36am

Views: 8915

I knew what awaited the minute Bay's name was attached.

At that moment, I knew that it wasn't going to really be a Transformer movie. It was going to be a Michael Bay movie loosely using the general story points of the Transformers as a template.

And that's exactly what we got. It was horrifying.

I have my issues with the execution of The Hobbit on film, but at least we didn't that level of epic disaster thrust upon us.

Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 3:46am

Views: 8904

I know! And I'm cringing... / /

Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.

Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III

Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea

Apr 25 2014, 3:50am

Views: 8906

I honestly wish fans of 80's cartoons could get some kind of legal injunction...

...preventing Bay from getting his filthy hands on anymore of these beloved franchises. Frown

Somebody has to stop him.

Sly

Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 3:52am

Views: 8918

The sad thing is, I wanted to see live-action transformers so much, I left all standards at the door

And regretted it. I tried sitting through No 2 when it was on free-to-air broadcast, but nope, did not last 5 mins; not ever again will I watch one of these while they are under Bay. I cannot fathom how he can get to no 4 and still plans on 5 and 6? Crazy

Exactly. At least we got movie adaptations that the book-lovers can also enjoy without wanting to lynch PJ... well, at least for some of us Smile

Quote

I have my issues with the execution of The Hobbit on film, but at least we didn't that level of epic disaster thrust upon us.

Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.

Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III

tsmith675
Gondor

Apr 25 2014, 4:05am

Views: 8905

The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies.

The Hobbit: There and Back Again
The Hobbit: The Battle of Five Armies
The Hobbit: Into the Fire

I like The Battle of the Five Armies as a title more than just The Battle of Five Armies. Into the Fire would not have been a good girls. There and Back Again just didn't make sense for the third film.

There and Back Again will be perfect as the entire trilogy being The Hobbit: There and Back Again. I love that. Let's just face it:

The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies is the title that makes the most sense.

Our destiny lies above us.

Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea

Apr 25 2014, 4:14am

Views: 8913

Raise your hand if you feel like you overreacted a little bit at this news. raises hand

Wow. I got quite snippy at PJ & the films in my earlier posts, didn't I? The Hobbit trilogy hasn't been all I'd hoped for, but I've quite enjoyed it (especially AUJ EE and DoS). Just goes to show how temper (today was a mess of incredible proportion for me) and negativity can lead to overreaction.

I don't care for the title, but what the hey - it's a title. The whole thing is The Hobbit: or There and Back Again anyway. So be it.

The best news of the day is definitely about the EE of DoS. I can't wait to see what was added back in (and what new music Shore has cooked up!). Though AUJ didn't have much added back in, IMO the theatrical cut already had some stuff that would typically have been saved for the EE. And now (er, since December that is), with the additions put back in, the film feels quite well balanced.

I'm hoping for some material that will slow down DoS a touch and allow some breathing room for character development. The film was a bit too breathless in spots (no doubt making up for the slower pace of AUJ). The film did have some poignant moments between characters, and I'd like to see that greatly expanded upon in the EE.

cats16
Half-elven

Apr 25 2014, 4:30am

Views: 8882

No worries!

I read the post again, in case he did say that.

Understand you perfectly. Smile

cats16
Half-elven

Apr 25 2014, 4:55am

Views: 8866

Congrats, dormouse!!

Glad to hear you've finished it! Can't wait to hear details when the time comes. Smile

morgul lord
Rivendell

Apr 25 2014, 5:37am

Views: 8919

(Disappointed) thoughts on BOFA, BOTFA, and TABA...

I won't get into it, but I thought There And Back Again was a perfect title. It was always my favourite of the 3 by far, and I couldn't wait... and now it'll never be called that.

But my main complaint is this extremely long, clunky title that doesn't roll off the tongue. The worst part is the extra "THE". I could probably get used to The Hobbit: The Battle of Five Armies (BOFA)... but The Hobbit: The Battle of THE Five Armies (BOTFA) is just ridiculously bad.

Also, please STOP saying how great it is that There And Back Again will be the title of the trilogy. Because I've got news for you... IT WON'T. No one will EVER call it that. It's already called The Hobbit trilogy, and that's what it will always be called. There And Back Again will not catch on, or become common usage. Nor does it appear as a subtitle on the screen. So at MOST, it might be printed on the box of a future box set. But no, There And Back Again will never become the title of the trilogy, except in maybe a technical official sense that no one ever says.

I generally trust PJ and give him the benefit of the doubt, and I'll get used to this eventually, but I honestly disagree with him this time. Despite his reasoning, I think he chose a much worse title.

(This post was edited by morgul lord on Apr 25 2014, 5:41am)

Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea

Apr 25 2014, 5:49am

Views: 8885

Opposite for me...

For the longest time, I mistakenly thought the battle was called "The Battle of THE Five Armies". When I found out that I had added the extra "the" in my head, I was never able to adjust to saying it the correct way and it felt clunky to me. Cool

Funny world, eh?

In point of fact, I would have preferred TABA as the title - but what's done is done. As for it never actually being used as a title for the trilogy - true enough, but everybody calls the book "The Hobbit" as well. "There and Back Again" is present on one of the opening pages, but I doubt many readers even register that honestly. To me, the trilogy will be The Hobbit, or There and Back Again - official or no. In the world according to me, it is so. Tongue

Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 7:03am

Views: 8843

No, of course not

But well, I did not expect the intensity of the mutation Bay did on... and the abject purile nature of the script. Well, yeah, I was not expecting any award winning moments, and I can leave my brain at the door as well as the next person and just enjoy the action, which I will admit, I did. But when my brain starts liquifying even when it's not in the theatre with me, that's a very big sign to bail.

Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.

Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III

Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 7:07am

Views: 8829

I hear ya! / /

Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.

Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III

DanielLB
Immortal

Apr 25 2014, 7:12am

Views: 10674

I wonder ...

Quote

Oh well, truth be told I much prefer the new title BUT nothing will save these films...nothing. Horrible cgi infested garbage!

Though you don't think so because of our "love everything pj does bubble" these films will be treated exactly as the sw prequels -they will be forgotten and mocked by all but a few die hards.

Excluding the obvious difference in tone between the books, how much of the difference we see between the two film trilogies is down to the fact we have all aged 10+ years between them. The consensus is (or at least appears to be) that the LOTR trilogy is superior (in most aspects) compared to the new Hobbit trilogy. Yet, looking back, the LOTR films are full of dodgy CGI (Watcher in the Water, Treebeard, Fangorn, Saruman falling to his death), ridiculous stunts (mainly involving an Oliphaunt), iffy humour (Gimli ...), long action sequences, little sense of danger when fighting mass groups of orcs, poor characterizations (Faramir, Denthor, Legolas, Gimli) and sacrilegious changes from canon (Arwen-Aragorn-Eowyn, Glorfindel, Frodo sending Sam home) .

Is there *really* any difference between the two trilogies?

Could it just be that we've all aged a bit, and what we're looking for in a film adaptation has also changed? Has our maturity changed how we visualise, expect and understand the characters and places of Middle-earth? Perhaps we were all a little more open to LOTR because this will the first proper attempt at an adaptation. 10 years later, perhaps we all grew optimistic of something that better represents the book but also uses the same techniques that we liked in the LOTR trilogy? Are we too fond of the old trilogy, and so it's easier to dismiss the new trilogy?

Ultimately, would our 10-year-younger self love The Hobbit movie trilogy just as much as The Lord of the Rings movie trilogy?

(Note, this isn't necessarily my actual opinion. I'm just making some suggestions. "We" doesn't refer to anyone or any group in particular.)

Arannir
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 7:40am

Views: 10647

I want to highlight this.

Quote

I am a great Tolkien devotee - but all those complaining that it is impossible to ciritisize PJ on this board should read up what some people have to listen to who dare to complain about the book or just question a detail of it.

No, one does not have to be a action-flick loving fankiddy who has no sense for true art to be critical of a lot in Tolkien's works. If some people would look beyond the borders of the Fan-Shire once in a while they would see that a lot of very intelligent people and critics have not that much love for Tolkien. And not all this criticism can be dismantled by saying "They did not get it" as it is often used on boards like this to react to criticism concerning the Professor.

Arannir
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 7:46am

Views: 10646

I do not want to comment...

... on whether your post or the reactions to it where fine, too harsh or whatnot.

But I have to add here that I have read this several times now. And it is true - some people here have a questionable way in reacting to other people's opinions.

But what is also true is two things. 1) It is really a minority who does this. 2) It goes both ways... people defending or liking certain aspects of the movies have repeatedly been called fanboys, apologists, un-cultured kids, etc.

People of both colors hurt the atmosphere and the level of discussion on TORN imho.

Glorfindela
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 10:22am

Views: 10621

DanielB:

I don't think it is just that we have 'aged a bit'. I do think that DoS rather lost it with all the OTT and what I feel is badly done comic-book action scenes, despite the wonderful visuals, notably Smaug and some of the locations. For me DoS is completely different in style from the LotR trilogy, despite the attempts to shovel in links to that trilogy – which I feel have created the opposite effect to that intended.

DoS does not have a 'heart', or a 'Tolkien feel' to it (unlike AUJ, despite its many deviations from the book, PJ 'fun' moments, etc.).

For me this is all the more a pity because TH had everything going for it at the start – most of all a great cast for the main characters that was on the whole better than that for LotR, e.g. Martin Freeman, Richard Armitage, Ian McKellen and Ken Stott. That cast has been wasted in DoS, which contains few and all too brief character moments.

I realize that The Hobbit book is not particularly filmable, except as a children's film, but if the film-makers wanted to make changes to attract an adult audience, why not give DoS more of a LotR 'feel', as AUJ did (perhaps minus the 'gross' moments), and include character expansion for all the main canon characters, instead of creating pointless elf-action scenes that add nothing meaningful to the film?

Going down the route of all-action DoS blockbuster, presumably to compete with Marvel all-action blockbusters and the like, has been a mistake in my view.

(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Apr 25 2014, 10:32am)

BlackFox
Half-elven

Apr 25 2014, 10:47am

Views: 10613

Poll: TABA or BOFA?

http://newboards.theonering.net/...;;page=unread#unread

"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau

(This post was edited by BlackFox on Apr 25 2014, 10:51am)

Kendalf
Rohan

Apr 25 2014, 10:59am

Views: 10576

I don't buy the "we've matured" argument

"how much of the difference we see between the two film trilogies is down to the fact we have all aged 10+ years between them.
Is there *really* any difference between the two trilogies?
Could it just be that we've all aged a bit, and what we're looking for in a film adaptation has also changed?
Ultimately, would our 10-year-younger self love The Hobbit movie trilogy just as much as The Lord of the Rings movie trilogy?"

I think there may be some weight to this argument if you're referring to people who were 15 when they saw the original trilogy but, from what I can glean from the odd reference here and there, many of us were already adults when we saw them and our tastes therefore haven't changed anywhere near as greatly (if at all) in the intervening period.

It's also a theory that curiously presumes Jackson hasn't aged a day. If we've all matured in what we're expecting from an adaptation of Tolkien, why hasn't he?

Nope, I think the truth is simply that many of us regard this current trilogy as inferior because it is. It is far more prone to ludicrous action, infantile humour, questionable design choices, disregard for the text etc than the original (yes, flawed) trilogy ever was.

(PS As an aside and on-topic , I think BotFA is a far better title than TaBA which was, after all, both inappropriate and, yes, a little dull)

"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."

(This post was edited by Kendalf on Apr 25 2014, 11:09am)

DanielLB
Immortal

Apr 25 2014, 11:29am

Views: 10583

Obviously ...

In Reply To

Nope, I think the truth is simply that many of us regard this current trilogy as inferior because it is. It is far more prone to ludicrous action, infantile humour, questionable design choices, disregard for the text etc than the original (yes, flawed) trilogy ever was.

Opinions are opinions, and some people do find this trilogy less satisfying than the original, regardless. I should have made a note of that above. Just to make it clear, I'm not suggesting we *should all* like the movies.

Quote

I think there may be some weight to this argument if you're referring to people who were 15 when they saw the original trilogy but, from what I can glean from the odd reference here and there, many of us were already adults when we saw them and our tastes therefore haven't changed anywhere near as greatly (if at all) in the intervening period.

I don't buy this though, I'm afraid. Regardless of how old you are, your opinion changes on a daily basis. You might already have been "mature" when the LOTR trilogy was released, but it doesn't mean your opinion stops maturing once you reach adulthood. Otherwise, you wouldn't go off food, films, music, people, politics or trends. Regardless of how old you are, your opinion of the LOTR films has greatly changed over the 10 years - you might like it less or more to varying degrees - it hasn't remained constant since 2003. Just like your opinion of The Hobbit trilogy will be different to how it is in 2024. 10 years is an awful long time. If you've read the books since you'll understand the characters more. If you've watched the films since you might like them more. Opinions are in flux, there not solid and they do not stay the same.

So, would your 10-year-younger self love The Hobbit movie trilogy just as much as The Lord of the Rings movie trilogy? Or, alternatively, what will your 10-year-older self think of The Hobbit movie trilogy?

(This post was edited by DanielLB on Apr 25 2014, 11:37am)

Escapist
Gondor

Apr 25 2014, 11:58am

Views: 10524

The maturity thing

is a thing that I have perceived most prominently among people who were teenagers when LotR movies came out and who then read the books after.

I don't think it explains all the differences of opinions, though, just maybe some. I think one of the biggest sources of differences of opinion comes from the differences in the source material. For decades before PJ's movies, the Tolkien fanbase differed a bit by preference for The Hobbit, LotR, or the Silmarillion. It has never really been the case that all fans of one story were equally fans of the other two.

If all the world's a stage then who's writing the script?

Elessar
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 12:17pm

Views: 10525

I don't know about that

In Reply To

IDoS does not have a 'heart', or a 'Tolkien feel' to it (unlike AUJ, despite its many deviations from the book, PJ 'fun' moments, etc.)./reply]

I think that is highly off the mark. Obviously ones mileage may vary but IMO it has both of those in plenty.

Kendalf
Rohan

Apr 25 2014, 12:18pm

Views: 10531

Hmm, I think we change more rapidly when we're young...

"Regardless of how old you are, your opinion changes on a daily basis. You might already have been "mature" when the LOTR trilogy was released, but it doesn't mean your opinion stops maturing once you reach adulthood...
Regardless of how old you are, your opinion of the LOTR films has greatly changed over the 10 years"

No, I don't believe it has, to be perfectly honest Smile

I was in my late 20s when I saw the first trilogy in cinemas and, yes, you're right, my opinion of them (both in their particulars and in the whole) has not remained entirely ossified over the intervening decade (for example, I suspect I'm a little more irked by Gimli tip-toeing over the bones now than I was back then) but neither has it changed significantly. What I feel now for the trilogy is pretty much what I felt then and I think that's at least partly down to the age at which I first saw them.

Yep, I think "how old you are" is important when considering changing opinions. I'm afraid you're not going to convince me that our attitudes, proclivities and tastes change at just as rapid a rate in our sixties, say, as they do in our teens and twenties. That's just human nature.

"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."

Glorfindela
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 12:25pm

Views: 10513

But…

It isn't 'highly of the mark' for me. I cannot help that I (and others I know) think like this. It is to do with gut reaction. I suppose it all depends on one's tolerance levels and personal preferences – I am certainly hoping the next film will improve for me.

In Reply To

I think that is highly off the mark. Obviously ones mileage may vary but IMO it has both of those in plenty.

Elessar
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 12:25pm

Views: 10524

Maturity

In Reply To

Come on now. You don't think even adults opinion on things change as they get older? I was 21 when FOTR came out and 23 when the ROTK came out. I can assure you I am not the same person as I was then. If someone is then that is really beyond sad they have not grown as a person at all. I will say there are things over the last ten years in my readings of the books and watching of the movies that I like more now than I did at the start as well as things I like less now. I will highly disagree that people haven't changed much as a whole in how they feel in 10 years. We also tend to develop more rose colored glasses for things we're fond of as time passes. Faults become less of an issue and the movie we play in our mind has a that tint to it. The same will happen with The Hobbit films for lots of folks. Some will stay stuck in their hate and I find that a sad thing.

In Reply To

I think it depends on how you use the term many. I agree its not as good but then again it was never going to be. Even with material from the appendices it was never going to be. As much as I love The Hobbit and as great a book/work as it is the book is a lesser work than The Lord of the Rings IMO.

So I agree with you in a sense of what I said but it is not a lesser Trilogy just because things are different.

*

Elessar
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 12:28pm

Views: 10509

That's not what you said though

Read the quoted part again. You stated it as if it was fact. You left out an "I" or IMO stating that you felt that way and because of that it reads as fact. I know the post is your opinion without reading the I but as someone who feels differently it creates a point of me going, "wait a mintue"!

In the end I understand people feel different and they are more than welcome to do so. I feel these two movies so far have tones of emotion, heart, and plenty of Tolkien. I wouldn't say Tolerance levels but personal preferences for sure.

Kendalf
Rohan

Apr 25 2014, 12:34pm

Views: 10518

Yep

"The maturity thing is a thing that I have perceived most prominently among people who were teenagers...
(But) I don't think it explains all the differences of opinions...
I think one of the biggest sources of differences of opinion comes from the differences in the source material...
It has never really been the case that all fans of one story were equally fans of the other two."

Can't disagree, Escapist Smile

KW
Rivendell

Apr 25 2014, 12:34pm

Views: 10509

"Mods up," as some are accustomed to say!

Quote

It's also a theory that curiously presumes Jackson hasn't aged a day. If we've all matured in what we're expecting from an adaptation of Tolkien, why hasn't he?

Glorfindela
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 12:41pm

Views: 10490

Dear me…

I thought I had inserted sufficient 'I's (or similar) to make it entirely clear that it was my opinion – which it certainly is. There is a limit to how much one can do this without making sentences read extremely awkwardly.

With ME, it is certainly to do with tolerance levels. I am not a 'whining book lover' (as someone else put it the other day), and could accept many changes and 'gross' moments in AUJ, but in DoS I FEEL the film-makers simply went too far for MY taste.

Unimpressed

Kendalf
Rohan

Apr 25 2014, 12:44pm

Views: 10504

Elessar

"Come on now. You don't think even adults opinion on things change as they get older?"

Sorry, Elessar. Much of what I'd say in reply to this I've already said to DanielLB above and I don't want to clog the thread up with repeated statements. Is that ok? Essentially, yes, I believe adults tastes do change but nowhere near at the same rate as teenagers' do.

"We also tend to develop more rose colored glasses for things we're fond of as time passes. Faults become less of an issue and the movie we play in our mind has a that tint to it."

Yes, I believe you're right here Smile

I'd agree that there's a general tendency to become more forgiving over time of films that really affected us when we were younger.

"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."

Elessar
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 1:00pm

Views: 10479

I's and such

You did but that comment still read like a statement of fact. It did to me anyways.

Fair enough.

Noria
Gondor

Apr 25 2014, 1:27pm

Views: 10465

This is not too surprising given the "Into the Fire" thing

I'm fine with the new title just as I was fine with the old one. The movie itself matters more to me than it's title.

After seeing AUJ I realized that these movies were neither going to be LotR: The Prequel or a purist rendition Tolkien's children's tale. They have their own tone and style and I like them as they are.

Great news about the DoS: EE.

Rembrethil
Tol Eressea

Apr 25 2014, 1:29pm

Views: 10454

Ooh! We have a playground!

*in an Ori voice*

Do they have any slides?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?

DanielLB
Immortal

Apr 25 2014, 2:06pm

Views: 10443

10 years isn't very rapid ...

In Reply To

Yep, I think "how old you are" is important when considering changing opinions. I'm afraid you're not going to convince me that our attitudes, proclivities and tastes change at just as rapid a rate in our sixties, say, as they do in our teens and twenties. That's just human nature.

Has your opinion of the books ever changed - perhaps a particular character or plot?

Just for the record, and as I said in my original post, this isn't necessarily my opinion. I find it hard to believe that 10 years could pass without change occurring; but the change in tone is probably largely related to opinions and views.

Lindele
Gondor

Apr 25 2014, 2:09pm

Views: 10457

I truly believe

that if none of us had ever seen PJ's The Lord of the Rings we would all feel VERY differently about The Hobbit films.
Expectations.

Otaku-sempai
Immortal

Apr 25 2014, 2:23pm

Views: 10419

I think that it's just a matter of emphasis, Kangi.

As a title, There and Back Again is anti-climactic and works better as an over-all title for the film trilogy. The Battle of the Five Armies is more dynamic and ties directly into the story's action-climax.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

Elessar
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 2:32pm

Views: 10412

Spot on

I think.

Though I will disagree with you on the CGI looking like a 90's video game.

Magpie
Immortal

Apr 25 2014, 2:47pm

Views: 10451

I've wondered this...

...but to accept it would be to think that this 10 year older self can't find things to love in movies or life or whimsically told tales... or whatever is 'keeping' me from enjoy TH as much as I did LOTR.

I don't believe that's true. I'm finding cinema all the time that I love... and everyone once in a while a thought erupts while I'm watching it... "That's how you make a good movie!"

I do believe that a 10 years after effect may be in play.

If can just list thoughts that I've wondered about that may be in play... (I will use the term 'filmmaker' to include everyone involved with the film including Tolkien Enterprises, WB, and MGM)

----Audiences as a whole are different 10 years later. Not more mature (or too old to enjoy!) but different. People view movies differently than they did 10 years ago. Filmmakers are looking to different demographics to make money and different ways to draw those demographics in.

----The popular style of large movies (as opposed to indie films or rom-coms, etc) is different. I see current patterns in large action blockbusters that I feel influenced TH. (part of the benefit of being old is that one has seen trends come and go)

----Peter Jackson (and everyone else that worked on both LOTR and TH) are different 10 years after. Remember, these are thoughts that I wonder about - not ones with proof. But everyone changes over time and what one person can do at 20 they aren't so keen to do at 30. What one person can do when their children are small isn't so easy when their kids are older. I remember someone saying that working on LOTR just about killed many of the people who did what had to be done. I know that when I commit beyond levels of endurance, I can produce something very wonderful. But the drive to do that may not be so evident the next time I attempt a similar project. I know the cost now. The newness of something that pushed me to work till I dropped isn't so new anymore. I don't know what differences were evident in those who worked on TH - but I know there *were* differences.

---At one point, Peter Jackson didn't want to direct TH. I can remember that fans here were insistent that he be the director. People asked us to pray for him to direct it. I was greatly put off by that. What if there were reasons that kept PJ from wanting the director's seat? Who are we to decide what is best and force him to do it? I don't know that the fans forced him to. But in some respects, it's highly possible he took the director's seat because he was pretty much forced to. I'm sure he took it with all good will and willingness to do his best. But still...

---We are dealing with WB rather than NL. How differently does WB do business than NL did? How many of the things evident in TH that don't sit well with me are the result of mandates set by WB ... not artistic choices by PJ?

---I am different. Yes. I am and everyone else. The whole world is different. Who knows how that plays in. I know that I was looking forward with great eagerness to be part of the excited fanbase following the lead up to the movies. Instead, I became so thorough maddened and disgusted with the level of intercourse on this Hobbit board that I left TORn for months at a time. I even signed myself out, at one point, so I would not be tempted to post. I watched many of my contemporaries on TORn's Message Boards leave around that same time. Some never came back. All *joy* I had in a Tolkien-movie fan base was sucked out of me long before I ever saw the movies. I don't think they would have kept me from loving a movie but maybe they did. I won't refuse to consider it.

In the end, I don't think I'm in a spot where I *can't* like the Hobbit because I like lots of things. I just *don't* like the Hobbit movies. I think I understand some of the reasons why and I've talked about them in the weekly off topic movie thread. I don't bother posting them here because way too often, there is no 'discussion' of movies here. There is only argument and posturing and accusations and the sense that *I* can't possibly say that the movies are disjointed because *another* doesn't think that way. Guess what. Disagreements in 'quality' happens all the time! :-) My husband loves beets and things they're yummy. I hate beets and think they're vile. They are yummy *and* they are vile. Because that's how subjective opinion works. Unless we're interested in finding out why each of us thinks they're either yummy or vile... or how our attraction or repulsion to beets influences our life or our relationship... or whatever (the beet analogy is limited!)... then we have nothing to talk about. We have to accept that we disagree. We can dismiss each other at worthy human beings. Or we can chuckle at our differences and leave each other to find their own head and virtual space to either enjoy or avoid beets.

LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide

Magpie
Immortal

Apr 25 2014, 2:52pm

Views: 11268

I'm not sure I worked out what you were trying to say...

it had a bit of that 'like half of you half as well as you deserve' sense to it and my face was probably as comical trying to work it out as the Hobbits in the movie... :-)

But I have actually thought about this. I have spent a fair amount of time, thought, discussion, and energy on The Hobbit movies. The thought that occurred to me was, had I never seen LOTR, I would have spent almost no time on The Hobbit movies. I would have watched them, talked about them in the car on the way home, and never given much thought to the again. Except to decide if I wanted to watch them again when they came to my second run theater.

LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide

(This post was edited by Magpie on Apr 25 2014, 2:52pm)

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 25 2014, 2:57pm

Views: 11259

Yep.

In the end AUJ and DOS were "more of the same".

For all the praise of FOTR, if Jackson had had the time and money there would have been hordes of Watchers in the underground lake, Gandalf fighting a slime balrog up the Endless Stair, an Elf-Orc battle at the entrance to Lothlorien, and a running Fellowship/Orc battle on the Anduin. (The last probably much like the barrel scene in DOS, with Legolas hopping on the heads of friend and foe alike. I mean, he'd alread hopped on the head of the cave troll during the battle of Moria so it's not like it would be something new. And the number of arrows he shot at Amon Hen was toned down because even Jackson found it a bit ridiculous.)

(I won't even mention the huge set-piece warg night attack on Edoras originally planned in TTT but scrapped on account of money.)

So yeah, if The Hobbit trilogy had been filmed first in 2001-2003 I bet dollars to donuts we'd be sitting here complaining about how bad FOTR (2012) and TTT (2013) were compared to it.

******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah

(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 25 2014, 3:07pm)

BlackFox
Half-elven

Apr 25 2014, 3:12pm

Views: 11249

Here you go, Rem!

"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau

Elessar
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 3:20pm

Views: 11246

Well said

I agree people have seemed to get worked up. I do believe its because people don't use the right verbiage. Too many times people state their opinions as fact without using ways of writing that show its an opinion. Also going back to a point I made last night some terms used become hyperbole. I honestly don't care who doesn't like this films and would gladly talk with them on why. I would just ask those people to be respectful in how they write things as I do honestly try and do the same.

Glorfindela
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 3:44pm

Views: 11221

Thanks very much for that, Magpie

It chimes a lot with my view, and is very intelligently put. Smile

And the following is also true, perhaps, as far as I'm concerned, although this point is difficult to assess because I have seen LotR, many times:

'The thought that occurred to me was, had I never seen LOTR, I would have spent almost no time on The Hobbit movies. I would have watched them, talked about them in the car on the way home, and never given much thought to the again. Except to decide if I wanted to watch them again when they came to my second run theatre.'

(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Apr 25 2014, 3:49pm)

Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea

Apr 25 2014, 4:21pm

Views: 11200

I don't buy it either...

In fact, I've always found it somewhat mildly offensive. I remember it was the excuse used by many in regards to the Star Wars prequel trilogy. Now, granted, the originals aren't exactly Lawrence of Arabia Tongue

, but they're tremendously exciting and endearing sci-fi adventures with endearing characters you can care about. Whenever I heard the "you've changed, the films haven't" line, I always felt it was a way of letting the new movies off the hook for their failings.

Same here (though, obviously, I think The Hobbit films are leaps and bounds above the SW prequels). My love of the LotR films has remained as it was when I first saw them - all I have to do is watch them for a few minutes and it's readily apparent to me that they are on a higher cinematic level than The Hobbit films (heck, pretty much most other films). To say that that's just due to nostalgia, or be being younger when they came out, etc. just rings false to me.

I've seen so many classic films throughout the years, at different points in my life - some right before the release of a belated sequel, prequel, etc. The fact that I've been able to discern the qualities and shortcomings of those films vs. the follow-ups speaks to my ability to recognize the actual qualities of a film and not just be caught up in boyhood nostalgia or some such thing.

Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Apr 25 2014, 4:28pm

Views: 11199

These are adaptations

of twentieth century classics. What is not often discussed is that for most classic books of that era or earlier, there have been a number of adaptations made - some close to the book and others more accurately described as "based on". Once a classic has been adapted for the screen - such as David Lean's Oliver Twist or Great Expectations, then it matters a lot less if someone comes along and takes a few liberties with a later version. Baz Luhrmann's Romeo and Juliet would probably have been subject to widespread condemnation if it had been the first attempt at adapting that particular play for the screen. Until PJ came along we didn't have a film adaptation of LOTR, and he succeeded enough, both as film and as adaptation to satisfy most people - and was given extra leeway, because LOTR was considered by many to be un-filmable. The Hobbit isn't un-filmable - it's comparatively straightforward in plot and scope, and the technology is now well established, partly thanks to PJ, WETA et al. So, without that extra leeway, people are wanting the first attempt at a Hobbit film to be a good adaptation of the book. Also, the rights aren't available for anyone else to have a go at a more faithful rendering, so, for many people, this one is all we're going to get.

"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."

Magpie
Immortal

Apr 25 2014, 4:43pm

Views: 11203

well...

I think wanting people to express their opinions in a certain way starts to become a kind of dogma that must be adhered to before one can have their opinions considered.

There are certainly folks on these boards and on all other venues on the internet (and off... I've met these folks in community meetings) that are going to complain and rant and rave and be agitated and antagonist and unpleasant no matter what anyone does. Some are in their head and can't get out. They are angry and they perceive the world in away that feeds that anger. Some like playing with people. They are purposefully baiting folks to get a rise out of them. They will take whatever you say and turn it back on you just to keep you engaged.

Those folks are not ones you want to play with. Walk away. Don't expect them to own their rantings as 'their opinion'.

Then there are folks that feel passionately and aren't well spoken. They might be young and haven't learned the skill of writing in nuanced ways. Or perhaps English isn't their primary language. Or maybe they're use to a type of language from another venue that doesn't play out so well here. Or maybe they're just having a bad day and today... they're mad as hell and they're going to tell the world so and they're not mincing words.

The subject of how we speak to each other is important. But at some point, when do we become - to use a net-speak term - own-your-opinion-Nazis about it?

I think I'm more aware of language and how we use it that many. I often edit myself up to 15-30 minutes after I've written a post or letter to eliminate ambiguities and ill chosen terms. But I don't make it a point to own every statement I make about a movie or tv show as 'my opinion'. And I don't think that most people in the Monday Movie thread on Off Topic do. We just accept that it's our own opinion and that people will differ. Most of the time, no feathers are ruffled and no one reacts badly. (there has been, in my observation, one except: Downtown Abbey... lol)

You thought my long post was well said but you didn't respond to one point I made about 10 years after. You only responded to something that let you make the point, once more, that people should choose their words carefully. That's not a criticism or complaint. It's an observation.

You're right. You're absolutely right. But I think we have to let it go, sometimes. Not because it's not important. But because we're never going to achieve any state where people do the right thing.

I tend to (try to?)...
...either dismiss someone, silently and personally, as not worth my time

...cut them some slack about how they phrased things and move on to their point. perhaps - while I'm addressing the points I might comment on what I perceive to be an ill-chosen phrase or label.

Or just walk away completely.

If I find myself reacting badly to how people are communicating more than 4 or 5 times in a row... it's time for me to take a break. Either because that environment is polluted... or I'm in a head state that won't let me perceive anything other than offense.

This isn't about being right or wrong, sometimes. It's about finding middle ground, getting along, and copacetic states of mind. If the debate is always about how we said things, why bother unless we're earnestly working out together how to effectively communicate. And that happens. But not very often on the Hobbit board. That's not why people come here and not enough people are interested (although many are... and kudos to them.. they have more patience than I do).

and with that, I must attend to real life and Founders Day events. Watching this thread has been fascinating in terms of watching different personalities operate and seize the moment, so to speak. :-) And in terms of people still wonderfully struggling with how to deal with sharing disappointments and delights with each other as a community.

I think there were some small triumphs over people trying to co-exist as a community over people taking the "Hans and Franz" persona with "We are here to rile (clap) you up!"

cheers.

LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide

Loresilme
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 5:02pm

Views: 11175

lol :) //

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 25 2014, 5:08pm

Views: 11171

Yes

It’s funny how trying to be a social, reasoned and otherwise normal person who connects with other human beings can often lead you astray. In the end you have to properly distance yourself from the abnormal, caustic psychopathy of the dysfunctional. Just don’t engage with those who can’t or won’t conform to a minimum standard of decency.

Words I should live by, but poking them with a stick is just so much fun.

******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah

Magpie
Immortal

Apr 25 2014, 5:10pm

Views: 11177

*whispers to Darkstone*

and it's pretty fun to watch you poke sometimes, too

LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide

Elessar
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 5:27pm

Views: 11140

Choosing topics

I agree. That's why I try (not always very well) to stick to that approach.

I agree. Some people will go one way or the other no matter what and there is nothing you can do about it. That wasn't the types of people I meant really.

I think its fair to hold people to their opinions. I mean at somepoint you have to walk away from them but I do expect people to own them all the same. If someone doesn't as you said I will walk away from them.

I did. I thought your post was very well written and thoughts laid out in a manner that was engaging to read. I didn't pick out on the points of the 10 years because I've already mentioned my thoughts and didn't want to beat that horse again.

So that is why I choose the last point because I felt the discussion needed reminding that at times its not what's said but how its said that might ruffle feathers. For me that's a somewhat large issue, which is why I choose it. I wasn't picking on or at you either so much by doing so but tossing it out as food for reminded thought.

You're right though its more about just realizing it is a total pipe dream to reach that level. Finding ways to communicate on The Hobbit board is a challenge at times no doubt.

Glorfindela
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 5:39pm

Views: 11141

'A good adaptation'

As far as I'm concerned, it is not that I wanted an utterly faithful adaptation of the book, because that wouldn't interest me very much, given that the book was written for children. There were many deviations from the books in LotR, too, and the characters (apart from Gandalf and younger Bilbo) were completely unlike I had imagined them. However, LotR captured the spirit of the professor's work: for example, it had emotional moments a-plenty (even though it also had some ham acting!), some wonderful outdoor scenes and music that blended seamlessly with the films.

As a 'good adaptation', I would have liked to see (in The Hobbit) something that reflected the spirit and heart of Tolkien's work. While AUJ did this to a certain extent, DoS strayed widely of the mark – there was nothing moving about it at all. As I have mentioned before, the visuals, apart from the ninja-elf action and the appearance of one character, were spectacular, but the story was too broken up and fast, relying on too much action, and there was not enough of the key canon characters (Bilbo,Thorin, Gandalf, Beorn, Thranduil, etc.). (IMHO, of course) Given this, I do not feel DoS was 'a good adaptation'.

In Reply To

Until PJ came along we didn't have a film adaptation of LOTR, and he succeeded enough, both as film and as adaptation to satisfy most people - and was given extra leeway, because LOTR was considered by many to be un-filmable. The Hobbit isn't un-filmable - it's comparatively straightforward in plot and scope, and the technology is now well established, partly thanks to PJ, WETA et al. So, without that extra leeway, people are wanting the first attempt at a Hobbit film to be a good adaptation of the book. Also, the rights aren't available for anyone else to have a go at a more faithful rendering, so, for many people, this one is all we're going to get.

Old Toby
Grey Havens

Apr 25 2014, 5:41pm

Views: 11145

Hey there Thranderz

let me jump in here real quick. I think it's not that people are criticizing the movie - yet - since it hasn't even come out. But I think the negative responses to the title change result from the supposition that the title indicates the stress, the most important element, of the movie. (And I have to admit I fall into that camp.) So I think it's not that the title is affecting the content, but rather the other way round. And although the battle may consume a great deal of the last part of the film, some of us are hoping that it isn't the most important part of the film, the heart of the film, and that character and story don't take a back seat to cgi and action sequences that go on and on. Having seen what PJ has done in the past, I'm confident he can pull it off, but I too personally prefer the previous title for the last film.

BTW I see by your name and pic that you are definitely into that elvish king. I thought Lee Pace was simply brilliant and look forward to seeing more of him in the next film!

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)

Old Toby
Grey Havens

Apr 25 2014, 5:51pm

Views: 11145

You state this so much more succinctly than I ever could

LOL! I was just responding to another poster earlier on and it took me a whole paragraph to say what you said in one sentence!

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 25 2014, 5:57pm

Views: 11117

Here

Letter #210:

(Or rather a precis to avoid copyright issues.)

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Letter_210

And a comparison of three treatments::

http://www.academia.edu/...n_Boorman_and_Beagle

******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah

Patty
Immortal

Apr 25 2014, 6:11pm

Views: 11116

Welcome, welcome Ranger Anduiel!

My fear is that there are those who won't read the books because they will think that they are just "action" stories if the heart of the story is gone from the film. I'm with you, it will always be there and back again to me.

Glad to have you out of lurkerdom.

Permanent address: Into the West

Darkstone
Immortal

Apr 25 2014, 6:57pm

Views: 11113

"...the spine of the story..."

In “Which Lie Did I Tell?: More Adventures in the Screen Trade” screenwriter Willaim Goldman (“The Princess Bride”) notes that “good screenwriters have to discover the spine of the story and stick to it”.

What is the spine of The Hobbit?

As squire puts it, the spine is:

The growth of Bilbo to immaturity.

The story is about Bilbo, and how he "had an adventure, and found himself doing and saying things altogether unexpected. He may have lost the neighbors' respect, but he gained -- well, you will see if he gained anything in the end."

None of the rest matters: not Elrond, the dwarves, Gollum, the eagles, Beorn, Lake town, or Smaug. It is not about seeing Middle-earth become real, and it is certainly not a prologue or prequel to The Lord of the Rings. It is about Bilbo's transformation. If we don't believe he is a fatuous boob at the beginning, and a bit of a hero at the end and a poet to boot, the movie isn't worth spit.
-TORn, Movie Discussion: The Hobbit, Dec 25 2007

Agreed.

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https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah

(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 25 2014, 6:59pm)

zalmoxis
Bree

Apr 25 2014, 7:24pm

Views: 11075

LOL

"What is the spine of The Hobbit[movies]?

The growth of Bilbo to immaturity. "

Agreed.

MirielCelebel
Rivendell

Apr 25 2014, 8:16pm

Views: 11033

yes but

In Reply To

"The Road goes ever on..."

Writing Bliss

TheSexyBeard
Lorien

Apr 25 2014, 8:43pm

Views: 11025

Total War

Ha, never meant that good catch, I couldn't get into the seires but I'd give a Hobbit version a go. Tongue

Yes, my username is terrible.

burgahobbit
Rohan

Apr 25 2014, 8:58pm

Views: 11026

We will certainly get 25 mintues this time

I remember specifically that last time he said, "Probably around 20-25 minutes", and this was after some one asked him about it. He was put on the spot and gave a rough number, then things changed.

This time he spells out "over 25 minutes" and adds that it's just about finished. That's solid information, and he just brought it up out of the blue as a bonus treat for us fans. He wouldn't have said anything to get our hopes up again if he wasn't sure.

"I've found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because I’m afraid, and he gives me courage.” - Gandalf the Grey.

"Do not be afraid Mithrandir, if ever you should need my help, I will come." - Lady Galadriel.

(This post was edited by burgahobbit on Apr 25 2014, 8:59pm)

Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea

Apr 25 2014, 9:04pm

Views: 11019

Agreed, and also...

...I'm so happy it will have over 25 minutes - not just because I like me some added footage Tongue

, but because it means the film will now be longer than AUJ (even in it's extended form). I don't like my movies to get shorter PJ - only longer. Sly

Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 10:18pm

Views: 10990

I agree it is not the same

Still, I will remain skeptical until it is completely official. I am reasonably confident that it will be more than last time, but I think it is too early to be sure. And before you say "but it must be official, Jackson posted it on his Facebook page," remember that the 20 questions were posted on his Facebook page as well. Wink

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire

Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Apr 25 2014, 10:20pm

Views: 11061

I read an interesting quote from Tolkien the other day

Can't remember where - but he was saying, effectively, that "There and back again" was the spine of the story. Which is similar to what you said - and interesting that this thread is partly about the scrapping of There and Back Again as a film title. Will they do justice to the "back again" part of the story? I know they've shot it - and PJ references it in the AUJ EE commentary. If they do use it in the Theatrical Edition, then I think there is a good chance that they will have kept the "spine of the book" at least partly visible, albeit with a lot of additional and often unnecessary action and elf stuff.

"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."

Salmacis81
Tol Eressea

Apr 25 2014, 10:56pm

Views: 10727

I'm not really all that concerned about the title change...

...but I do hope that the return journey is not given short shrift just so we can see more action (although I'm completely expecting that to be the case). And as I've made known on more than one occasion, I'm concerned that Jackson might overplay the scale of the Battle of Five Armies itself just because it's his last hurrah in Middle-earth. The Battle of Five Armies was not the biggest battle of the Third Age, and it should not be portrayed as such.

(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Apr 25 2014, 11:00pm)

Kendalf
Rohan

Apr 25 2014, 11:32pm

Views: 10715

I wouldn't hold out much hope on either front...

"I do hope that the return journey is not given short shrift just so we can see more action (although I'm completely expecting that to be the case)."

Well, yes. But then such a choice would be entirely understandable, wouldn't it, considering the general reaction to RotK's "multiple" endings and the fact that, well, movies just aren't structured with such enormous, elongated codas.

"And as I've made known on more than one occasion, I'm concerned that Jackson might overplay the scale of the Battle of Five Armies itself just because it's his last hurrah in Middle-earth. The Battle of Five Armies was not the biggest battle of the Third Age, and it should not be portrayed as such."

What with 3D, 4K, 48fps, IMAX, a decade of accolades and limitless funds behind him, you can bet your bottom dollar that the BoFA is going to blow everything else out of water. Or at least try to...

So, yes, I (and many others, I suspect) share your concerns Unsure

Lio
Lorien

Apr 25 2014, 11:36pm

Views: 10680

Thanks, those were a great read!

Looks like those early scripts really are locked away in a vault somewhere. Laugh

Salmacis81
Tol Eressea

Apr 25 2014, 11:43pm

Views: 10692

As to the second point about the scale of the battle...

...I think Jackson could make the battle into a more dazzling display than anything we've seen thus far, and still stay close to the true scale of the battle. But will he? Or will he put 300,000 Orcs in this battle just so he can top the 200,000 present in his version of the Battle of Pelennor? If he wants these 6 films to be viewed as one single "hexology", then I think it would be a huge mistake to turn the Bo5A into the biggest battle of the series.

Name
Rohan

Apr 25 2014, 11:45pm

Views: 10694

It's going to be spectacular

But I doubt Jackson will try to make it bigger than Pelennor Fields. And to be honest, I don't think the area around Erebor is large enough to fit an absolutely huge mass of people.

How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?

"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"

Kendalf
Rohan

Apr 25 2014, 11:57pm

Views: 10700

Six films, yes... But not chronologically...

In Reply To

If he wants these 6 films to be viewed as one single "hexology", then I think it would be a huge mistake to turn the Bo5A into the biggest battle of the series.

I think he does want these films to be viewed as a unified hexalogy but I don't think they'll ever be best viewed AUJ to RotK. In all sorts of ways it makes much more sense to watch LotR first. This new trilogy is, by default, a prequel trilogy and has therefore been written and filmed as such. It's not pretending in any way to pre-date the originals; it even depends on familiarity with them in many instances.

So, yes, he does want all six films to be viewed as a unified narrative, but I'm pretty much convinced that he views BotFA as the sixth film, not RotK,,,

"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."

Salmacis81
Tol Eressea

Apr 26 2014, 12:14am

Views: 10698

Yes, due to the "flashback" set-up after the Bilbo/Frodo stuff...

...but that doesn't really change the fact this trilogy is more of a set-up for LotR than the "main event". We know Sauron is not at full-strength here, it's already been stated as such by Gandalf. So it doesn't make sense for his forces to be stronger now than they are when he IS at full-strength and decides to try and topple Minas Tirith.

Morthoron
Gondor

Apr 26 2014, 1:33am

Views: 10702

Perhaps he should rename it "Raiders of the Lost Arkenstone"...

since it bears less and less resemblance to Tolkien, and more and more like any other generic big-budget Hollywood epic. Perhaps Thor or another Marvel character will be used in place of the eagles as the deus ex machina. Cross-advertising and product placement are big ticket items in films these days. Wink

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.

Kangi Ska
Half-elven

Apr 26 2014, 2:17am

Views: 10636

That last one, "If they use it" is the big if.

I still believe the title change signals a shift in the focus of this final movie of the three. The Hobbit is not a story about war. If this were not the case Tolkien would have kept his Hobbit conscious to participate. The Battle of Five Armies isn't even a chapter in the book. KS

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor

Apr 26 2014, 4:36am

Views: 10640

*nods and whispers*

With or without popcorn!

**********************************

NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011

lurtz2010
Rohan

Apr 26 2014, 6:19am

Views: 10621

people saying the return journey should be the main focus are full of it

yeah Bilbo heads back home and discovers he's a new man since he left the Shire. They should dedicate the whole second half of the movie to all that...

Kendalf
Rohan

Apr 26 2014, 7:41am

Views: 10593

It can be greater without being greater ;-)

In Reply To

that doesn't really change the fact this trilogy is more of a set-up for LotR than the "main event"...it doesn't make sense for his forces to be stronger now than they are when he IS at full-strength and decides to try and topple Minas Tirith.

True. I suppose what I'm expecting is that the BotFA will be more ambitious, more complex, more sprawling, more episodic, more varied, more spectacular more "eye-candy" than the Pelennor Fields (and perhaps even longer) rather than larger...

That's what I mean by Jackson trying to "blow all his previous battles out of the water". Am I making sense?

"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."

Elciryamo
Rivendell

Apr 26 2014, 7:58am

Views: 10585

Well, I followed you :)

In Reply To

Jackson can try and out do himself all he wants. Personally, I see Battle of Five Armies showing a ramp up of events, elevating the stakes higher and higher until the titular event. If you have Smaug defeated and then there is another, greater threat, and still another, then you can build on those threats towards a larger climatic ending.

BO5A is a more fitting title than TABA, as they really will be eliminating threats until a greater one is shown. Finally, at the end, we will see evil defeated for a time, but foreshadowing the events in LOTR.

Does Pelennor Fields take away from Helms Deep or the Black Gate? Does the personal struggle of Aragorn diminish because of Frodo and Sam? No, the events compliment and build upon one another towards a grander ending where all parties are involved.

DoS actually did a good job of setting up stakes, and I think that will continue throughout BO5A.

Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Apr 26 2014, 4:32pm

Views: 10539

Lurtz2010, you were replying to me, so I should ask

were you deliberately misrepresenting people here, or was it a genuine lack of comprehension? And what is it exactly that people are full of - could you be more specific?

"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."

MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea

Apr 26 2014, 5:03pm

Views: 10512

the main event in

"The Lord of the Rings", the ring and Sauron are the main event in that trilogy. I want BOT5A to be more epic than anything in LOTR's just because its the last middle-earth film! Wink

The flames of war are upon you..

(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Apr 26 2014, 5:03pm)

Salmacis81
Tol Eressea

Apr 26 2014, 5:36pm

Views: 10507

Yes, that makes sense...

...and I wouldn't have a problem with the battle being more of an "eye-candy" type of battle. I expect that the whole eagles/bats battle in the skies (if it's still being included) will add a whole new dynamic to the battle, and will allow for plenty of dazzling display. And I'm sure the Mirkwood elves are going to be defying the laws of gravity all over the place as well...

Salmacis81
Tol Eressea

Apr 26 2014, 5:43pm

Views: 10498

It can be "more epic"...

...without being bigger in scale.

And the two trilogies are meant to be linked into one large narrative. Wink

NecromancerRising
Gondor

Apr 26 2014, 5:51pm

Views: 10503

Sure,why not.

If i can accept that the Elves live forever and some or them have powerful magic abilities,i can easily accept one race of Elves like the Mirkwood ones to defy gravity.Of course,that happened in THEIR own territory,where they have lived for hundreds of years.Let's see if the same will happen in a completely unknown ground. Smile

"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"

MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea

Apr 26 2014, 9:14pm

Views: 10462

LOL

its called The Battle of the Five Armies! I think it should be just as epic if not more than Helm's Deep or pelennor fields.

The flames of war are upon you..

Salmacis81
Tol Eressea

Apr 26 2014, 9:32pm

Views: 10484

What is your point?

So what if it's called "The Battle of Five Armies"? Most of the armies were small, except for the Goblin army. The Dwarves numbered around 500, a Elves a few thousand, and the Men of Lake-town much less than either. There were probably more Rohirrim at Pelennor than there were Dwarves, Elves, and Men combined at the Bo5A. Here is an excellent statistical analysis about the numbers at the Bo5A done by someone. It's not definitive by any means, but it gives us a rough idea based on Tolkien's descriptions of the forces.

And if you've read the books, then you know that Pelennor contained at least 7-8 armies - Gondorians, Rohirrim, Knights of Dol Amroth, Easterlings, Haradrim, Troll-men of Far Harad, Variags, and the Orcs/Trolls/Nazgul from Mordor and Minas Morgul.

So really, nothing to "LOL" about Wink

MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea

Apr 26 2014, 9:47pm

Views: 10446

small armies?

ok even if they are small armies…its still FIVE plus eagles and a giant bear. If the title is BO5A you know its not going to be a small battle, i mean come on now..

The flames of war are upon you..

lurtz2010
Rohan

Apr 26 2014, 9:56pm

Views: 10459

sorry i was referring to that message above

i just meant all that back again/self discovery stuff is a given and the title change doesnt mean it wont be focused on. its not like the movie will end at erebor after thorins funeral.

(This post was edited by Silverlode on Apr 26 2014, 11:11pm)

Elessar
Valinor

Apr 26 2014, 10:36pm

Views: 10424

I plan too

watch all six EE once they're all out from AUJ to ROTK. It makes sense and how I personally view they should be watched. I look at it the same way I do when I read The Hobbit though The Lord of the Rings. I am quite excited myself to sit down next year and watch all of them. Cool

Salmacis81
Tol Eressea

Apr 27 2014, 2:36pm

Views: 10399

Sorry, here is the link...

http://www.councilofelrond.com/...analysis-by-ilandir/

Otaku-sempai
Immortal

Apr 27 2014, 3:33pm

Views: 10393

Yes.

The number of the armies of the Free Peoples probaby numbered at least 2000:
- Elves: 1000+ spearmen with at least several companies of archers (say a company = 20 Elves).
- Dwarves: 500+ warriors and Thorin's 13.
- Men: However many fighters remained after Smaug's attack; say 200 to 300.
- The Eagles were numerous; so dozens at least.

The Orcs and their alllies comprised a vast host that greatly outnumbered their opponents. Say at least 5000 and as many as 10,000, not even counting the bats.

So we are looking at a conflict at about the scale of Helm's Deep.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 27 2014, 3:35pm)

Name
Rohan

Apr 27 2014, 4:47pm

Views: 9658

According to the book, yes

But you've got to remember that these numbers were established before Tolkien wrote LotR.

In LotR, the Elven Kingdom in Mirkwood has a rather large population, and is more important than Tolkien described it in The Hobbit. So you'd think they would be able to muster multiple thousands of troops, not just one thousand.

Then there's the dwarves of the Iron Hills. Logically thinking, 500 isn't much of a force for Dain to bring with him to Erebor. You would think the dwarven race would be able to muster a force larger than 500. These are the same dwarves, after all, who will be resisting Sauron's assault 60 years later.

See what I'm getting at? Middle-earth in TH is considerably smaller and less involved than the Middle-earth Tolkien later describes in LotR.

How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?

"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"

Otaku-sempai
Immortal

Apr 27 2014, 6:05pm

Views: 9654

I am erring on the consertavive side here.

When Tolkien writes of over 500 Dwarves, I assume that it is significantly less than 600, but as much as an additional two score or so. And that is not including Thorin and his companions. We don't know the size of Dain's colony in the Iron Hills; we just know that he can muster a force of over 500 Dwarves. Perhaps the rest of his warriors were left behind for defense or as a possible reserve. However, the number of Dain's force is so well known from the book that I don't see a good reason to inflate it much.

Thranduil was marching with "many spearmen and bowmen." We know that there were at least one thousand spearmen (probably more). If we assume a rough parity of bowmen then that gives the Elvenking at least 2000 fighters--maybe half again that amount.

We have only the vaguest idea of the number of Men in Bard's army. For the sake of arguement, let's say that they numbered anywhere from 200 to 400 men (also including a few dozen Eagles).

So, conservatively the Free People might have numbered less than 3000 at the Battle of Five Armies. A more generous estimate might bring that to over 4000. I'm still thinking that we have at least 10,000 Orcs (including goblins), Wargs and wild wolves. That seems like it should be more than enough for Peter Jackson.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

Hanzkaz
Rohan

Apr 27 2014, 6:32pm

Views: 9634

I look at it this way -

The forces of 'Good' non-human races were more powerful during the time of the Hobbit, and due to the Battle of Five Armies and the continued exodus of the Elves, their power was much diminished by the time of LOTR.

Secondly, during the LOTR movies, we only saw a part of Sauron's forces. His armies were spread all over Middle-Earth wreaking havoc. We never saw the Dark Lord's full might at the time.

So we could get a battle to rival or even surpass the 'later' ones.

Otaku-sempai
Immortal

Apr 27 2014, 6:43pm

Views: 9619

Only because Elves and Dwarves reproduce slowly

In Reply To

That's only true in the sense that the Mirwood Elves and the Dwarves of the Iron Hills took many casualties in the Battle of Five Armies. Both races replenish their numbers slowly--particularly the Dwarves--and they have only had a few decades to recover. The folk of Rivendell and Lothlorien never took part in the battle, but their strength has been diminished by Elves taking ship to sail West to Valinor. Both stories are set in essentially the same period--near the end of the Third Age.

Quote

Secondly, during the LOTR movies, we only saw a part of Sauron's forces. His armies were spread all over Middle-Earth wreaking havoc. We never saw the Dark Lord's full might at the time.

So we could get a battle to rival or even surpass the 'later' ones.

True, 'though in Tolkien's The Hobbit, we never got any sense of the size of the Necromancer's forces. Even in Jackson's version, we can assume that Sauron has allies in the South and East that don't come into this story; and that his servants are breeding more Orcs in Mordor who also don't figure in the Bo5A.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

Hanzkaz
Rohan

Apr 27 2014, 6:58pm

Views: 9640

Pretty much what I was referring to.

Quote

Only because Elves and Dwarves reproduce slowly

While Sauron was in Dol Guldur, he focused on the Elves and Dwarves, and then he moved to Mordor and went to war against Gondor (I'm talking movie canon).

The power of Men (especially Gondor) was weakened by years of fighting against Sauron's armies. They could still replenish their numbers quicker than the other races though, which is why Gandalf set his hopes on them.

MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea

Apr 27 2014, 7:05pm

Views: 9641

that is just a blueprint for the battle

it speaks of "hosts" and "many", PJ could easily make the host hundreds or more.

The flames of war are upon you..

Salmacis81
Tol Eressea

Apr 27 2014, 7:13pm

Views: 9637

My point is that, in the books...

...the Bo5A was a much smaller battle than Pelennor. So the Bo5A should be much smaller than Pelennor in the film as well.

Quote

PJ could easily make the host hundreds or more

Unfortunately, PJ has carte blanche to do whatever he wants, and seemingly no one to reign in his excesses. So yeah, he might turn 500 Dwarves into 5000 Dwarves.

the 13th warrior
Rivendell

Apr 27 2014, 9:06pm

Views: 9625

The Good Guys attack the Bad Guys from the Lonely Mt. itself.....

Hello All, according to the Hobbit book version (here we go again with books and film comparisons), the elves, dwarves, and men gather on two arms/spurs of the Lonely Mt. and try to lure the orc armies into a valley, the only way that leads to the main gate. This is actually a real military tactic from Greek-Roman armies to medieval ones--get a large army with superior numbers all jammed up in a narrow space and attack them from the high ground and the rear. But the book says even this tactic only works for a while and Beorn and the Eagles are the real heroes who save the day at the last minute. But a small force might use this strategy& tactics if they were outnumbered.

Again, we don't know how filmmaker and war-master PJ is going to play this out. But it would make sense to stick to the book on this one. I am sure we will cheer on our heroes as they bash and slash--and some will meet their end on the battlefield--tragic and bittersweet.

regards, the 13th warrior.

Otaku-sempai
Immortal

Apr 28 2014, 4:03pm

Views: 9577

I think that I undercounted the Elves.

As it is, I believe that I undervalued the Wood-elves by at least 1000 men. Tolkien wrote that there were at least 1000 spearmen (probably more). He doesn't actually state that the bowmen numbered as many, but we can at least speculate that that was so, bringing their numbers up to over 2000.

Jackson isn't going to want to inflate the numbers too much on the side of the good guys; the audience still has to see them as badly outnumbered.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

Imladris18
Lorien

Apr 28 2014, 4:10pm

Views: 9580

*I don't get the vibe that there are that* many people in Lake-town or elves in Mirkwood.**

I think we'll see more conservative numbers with more intimate battle scenes for the good guys a la Helm's Deep.

Otaku-sempai
Immortal

Apr 28 2014, 6:13pm

Views: 9581

There may have been more Elves than you think.

In Reply To

I think we'll see more conservative numbers with more intimate battle scenes for the good guys a la Helm's Deep.

I think that Thranduil could reasonably have mustered a couple of thousand Wood-elves or so. The totals for the Armies of the Free Peoples of the North could be as low as less than 3000, or a bit over 4000. I thiink that more than that would be pushing it. The number of enemies might rival or exceed Saruman's forces at Helm's Deep, but they will also be less disciplined (particularly the Wargs and Bats).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 28 2014, 6:23pm)

Imladris18
Lorien

Apr 28 2014, 6:16pm

Views: 9593

You very well may be correct.

Thranduils' kingdom just seems fairly small from my perception.

In any case, I don't think we'll see anything close to Pelennor Fields numbers.