The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
A female's point of view



Thranderz
Rohan


Sep 27 2013, 10:33pm


Views: 3803
A female's point of view

First of all, I'm not female. However, I've noticed that females don't seem to take to these films (I am talking about The Hobbit specifically but not exclusively) like us males! My mum finds it boring, despite me thinking she'd find it enchanting, and my girlfriend tries to enjoy it but says that the characters aren't relatable or likeable. Is this the view of all women, and if so why? Has any of Phillipa Boyens' 'female energy' actually rubbed off on anyone? Thought I'd just share this with everyone to see what you all think. Smile

I simply walked into Mordor.


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 27 2013, 10:44pm


Views: 3059
Absolutely not, this is a femine forum! ;-)

It's likely just your mix of family and friends that leads you to that conclusion. But Tolkien (and the films) have equal shares of male and female fans.

As for this forum, it's inundated with Thorin fangirls. AngelicWink



(This post was edited by DanielLB on Sep 27 2013, 10:46pm)


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Sep 27 2013, 10:52pm


Views: 2922
I've never seen it that way.

I know more guys that have flat out said they find the movie "boring".


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Sep 27 2013, 10:52pm


Views: 2962
The view of all women? No.

I know men and women who can't get into the books or the films, and men and women who *love* them!

Stick around on TORN and you'll see plenty of women who are fans of the films - and, despite what DanielB says, not just because of Hot Dwarves.

(BTW Daniel's reference to 'femine' is explained in our TORN Dictionary, in case you're confused. See also the reference for 'knitting'.)

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


(This post was edited by Ataahua on Sep 27 2013, 10:56pm)


DeadRabbits
Lorien


Sep 27 2013, 10:53pm


Views: 2910
My girlfriend and my sisters loved AUJ...

... as did those of my female friends who saw the movie, so I guess it's a matter of personal taste and not which gender one belongs to. All things Tolkien seem to have a strong female fanbase.

Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Sep 27 2013, 10:57pm


Views: 2897
Folks said that about LotR, too...

I actually had some correspondence with a reviewer on the San Jose (CA) Mercury News who claimed that only males liked it. At the time, RotK was ending its run, and when I went (I saw it in theaters 11 times, which is quite modest by TORn standards - grammaboodawg saw it 60-some times) I would look around the theater and see 75% women. I think a majority of the folks posting on TORn are female.

Personally, I don't care for The Hobbit as much as LotR, but I am definitely a fan.








Thranderz
Rohan


Sep 27 2013, 10:57pm


Views: 2911
Oh yeah

I'm not saying all females dislike these films but despite Phillipa Boyens' efforts to create a female energy I'm not seeing a surge in female fans. I know there are quite a lot on these boards but just not where I live Frown

I simply walked into Mordor.


Arannir
Valinor


Sep 27 2013, 11:00pm


Views: 2885
Interesting question...

Among my friends there are more female LotR (both book and movie) lovers than male ones. However, those females who dislike it (again, both book and movie) often seem to think that it is "more for guys" or "something guys like".

As for the "female" energy... many of the women I know liking the movies certainly appreciated the way Galadriel and Arwen were handled in LotR. But I think most guys did as well. As for AUJ, I do have the feeling we (among our friends) are not divided on the "female spirit" of characters like Tauriel - actually most of us agree that that energy is welcomed to the story (one even saying that corrects something she loathed about the book). The divide rather comes from the question of whether this goes too far in a book adaptation/interpretation or not.



“A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of men’s imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold.” J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 27 2013, 11:01pm


Views: 2943
You may have a point Daniel. //


In Reply To

As for this forum, it's inundated with Thorin fangirls. AngelicWink


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!








MediaMalable
Bree


Sep 27 2013, 11:05pm


Views: 2899
I do not agree at all

I actually think Tolkien seems to have one of the most impressively gender agnostic fandoms that there is, with men and women enjoying the films and books equally. I know that my sisters love the films and books nearly as much as I do, and my mother has been a huge Tolkien fan since she read them growing up.

I think the depth and beauty of Tolkien's world speaks to people of both sexes, and draws them in.


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 27 2013, 11:06pm


Views: 2941
I'd expect more Tauriel fanboys ...

Had she been canon. Wink

And that avatar suits you, Brethil.

(I was only joking by the fangirl comment - there are no fangirls or fanboys, just very obsessive Tolkien fanatics. All of which are great!)

Going back to Thranderz's point - I rarely come across any other Tolkien fans in real life - at least anyone more passionate than having only read the books (once, maybe twice) and seen (and enjoyed) the films. Where are you all hiding?



(This post was edited by DanielLB on Sep 27 2013, 11:08pm)


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Sep 27 2013, 11:07pm


Views: 2947
Phillipa Boyens' efforts are wasted on me.

I loved The Hobbit book with no females at all, and fear Phillipa's insertions will weaken the films, not improve them. I really disagree with the notion that women only like stories with female characters, whether we're talking about movies or books. Women like good, well-written stories, period.








Thranderz
Rohan


Sep 27 2013, 11:08pm


Views: 2900
Same here!

I know no Tolkien fans (except all of you lovely people on these message boards), I feel like the only one in town Frown

I simply walked into Mordor.


Thranderz
Rohan


Sep 27 2013, 11:11pm


Views: 2886
I agree!

Galadriel is fine as long as they keep her on a leash with all that power of hers Wink and Tauriel........well I'm willing to give her a chance I suppose.

I simply walked into Mordor.


Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 27 2013, 11:19pm


Views: 2896
Where *are* the fans? Good question


In Reply To
Had she been canon. Wink (haha!Laugh)

And that avatar suits you, Brethil. Sadly, now I shall have to look at my own posts over and over. CrazyLaugh
(I was only joking by the fangirl comment - there are no fangirls or fanboys, just very obsessive Tolkien fanatics. All of which are great!) Yes, its good to be part of a Fellowship...which leads into the next question..

Going back to Thranderz's point - I rarely come across any other Tolkien fans in real life - at least anyone more passionate than having only read the books (once, maybe twice) and seen (and enjoyed) the films. Where are you all hiding? ...which I totally find to be the case as well. I know almost NO book-firster people (excepting my BFF) and even the Movie-fans are not exactly ... committed (committable?) like we are. It seems we are a strong fan following - but I have to say my RL meetings are rare. I wonder too, where is everyone?


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!








Elskidor
Rohan

Sep 27 2013, 11:28pm


Views: 2837
I've met many of both of gender that love

But I'm surprised by the equal amount of men and women, for the main cast is all mainly men. There are but a couple female in LoTR even less in the Hobbit. It's pretty one sided, really. I figure a lot of women watch for the Legolas, Aragorn and..hmm is Thorin a heart throb now?


cats16
Valinor


Sep 27 2013, 11:35pm


Views: 2848
*mods up*


In Reply To
I really disagree with the notion that women only like stories with female characters, whether we're talking about movies or books. Women like good, well-written stories, period.



Oleander Took
Rivendell


Sep 27 2013, 11:48pm


Views: 2835
Absolutely agree with this

give me a good story, and despite being a female, I won't need a single female character to enjoy it or identify myself with the story and/or characters. And like you I feel that that addition will be more something that could pull me off the story than something to make me get into it better Unsure

"There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something."


Blkcpt
Rivendell

Sep 27 2013, 11:54pm


Views: 2820
Welll

With me and my girl. We both like and dislike parts of all the films for different reasons. I want them to be more dark and violent....she wants a more feel good, love story type of thing. I love the "bad" characters. I think their costumes and presence is a little bit more gripping. On the otherhand my girl loves the good guys and thinks the bad guys are bland. Men and women.... two different species


(This post was edited by Blkcpt on Sep 27 2013, 11:56pm)


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Sep 28 2013, 12:10am


Views: 2792
Definitely not

There are a lot of female LOTR and Hobbit fans, just as there are males. Tolkien's works, to me, are one of those things that appeal to both genders. Perhaps your mum and girlfriend are just indifferent to The Hobbit, but not all women are. Who knows? Maybe even the female energy by Boyens could have even rubbed them the wrong way. There are some female fans who, while they love Tolkien, were rubbed the wrong way by Boyens female energy. Some say she tried/tries too hard.


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Sep 28 2013, 12:20am


Views: 2787
Agreed

I've always valued story and character, over the quantity of characters, quantities of male and female characters. If the story is good, and the characters whether male or female is likeable, that's all that matters to me.
Besides, if The Hobbit has no female characters, so what? There are other works that have some cool female characters, like Harry Potter. Hermione, who was female, was smarter and more practical than all the boys. She's even the top of the class. Usually the female characters nowadays are ditsy and dumb. She wasn't. And then there is Katniss in The Hunger Games.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 28 2013, 1:23am


Views: 2784
I know several females, mine own lady included, who adore it, and not just because they desire Thorin, Aragorn or Thranduil, though

that certainly has been a factor for some. lol

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Sep 28 2013, 1:29am


Views: 2763
Nope!

Female and lovin' it.

Though I am not a representative member of my sex as regards a Tolkien adaptation, as I am and have been for ages, a devoted Tolkien fan. First read the Hobbit at age 6, and have probably read LotR approximately once time for each year of my life (currently in my 40s).

But my mother loves the movie and can't wait to buy the EE when it comes out. (She has read the books, I believe once, and liked 'em. Loves the LotR movies).

I have two sisters. One can't stand the books, she tried to read them and gave up, they were not to her taste. But she likes both the LotR films, and AUJ. The other is a bit like me (perhaps not taking her fandom to quite the same degree...) and so, is another example of a female who liked the movie.

Regarding the characters not being relatable or likable to the female audience...surely you have not missed the impact Thorin (and his hair) have made with many of the female members of this forum?Cool


Mikah
Lorien

Sep 28 2013, 1:36am


Views: 2778
Maybe working at High Schools?

I guess I am lucky here. When DoS came out I was working at a public charter school. So many Tolkien fanatics there. Twelve of us got together and saw DoS on opening night...waited 6 hours on a rainy night to see it. These people are huge fans. They quote everything from the Silmarillion to Lord of the Rings. It was crazy, Student Advisors, Guidance Counselors, Teachers, and IT. The Principal of the school was quite confused when she had that many people showing up late the following day! Good thing that kids were out for Christmas break.

As a matter of fact one of the Guidance Counselor's told me about this site when you guys were reading the Silmarillion. He said I really needed to join in because I was getting rusty on my lore!


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Sep 28 2013, 1:47am


Views: 2770
I loved The Hobbit book with no females at all

Misoginy!

Neanderthal notions! This is the 21st century, lady, cant we update this black and white story for a modern era?

Geez....


Wink


Im with you. I never felt the testosterone bottle overflowing and ruining the story for me. Boyens's comments about this much needed energy are in my view, disrespectfull of TH novel, and ultimately the author himself.

Boyens is red haired herself isnt she? What a coincidence Angelic

Vous commencez ŕ m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Semper Fi
Rohan


Sep 28 2013, 1:55am


Views: 592
"female energy" is not a reason why women enjoy movies

I cannot speak for all women but this is what I noticed - in movies/books with a central female characters, biggest draw for women is a male love interest. Titanic and Twilight aren't big because of Rose and Bella but because of Jack and Edward. Heck, I've met more women who absolutely hated female character and felt about her as a romantic rival (translation: wanted to claw her face!) than those who identified with her. Some of the most hated female characters are without doubt Kate Austen (Lost), Elizabeth Swann (POTC) and Bella (Twilight). Reason? They got men female fans wanted for themselves!

I admit I'm guilty of the same so maybe that's a typical female viewer trait. Granted, all those hated female characters were also awfully annoying Mary Sues so hate was justified. However, it does seem that female viewers enjoy movies in a different way then men. I've never heard of men treating male characters as (romantic) rivals while this is very typical of female viewership when it comes to female characters. I'd say women are more possessive fans. Tumblr is a prime example how female fans found a way to deal with insufferable fictional female rival issue - pair male characters, ship them and no more stress. Sherlock and John belong together. Whatever female tries to butt in, fans know she means nothing. For he and he are one true pairing. Cue millions of fanfics. Heck, the whole fanfiction phenom is really dealing with insufferable fictional female rival. In fanfiction, you can pair your fictional crush with your self-insert (and suffer the Internet wraith) or another male character (and enjoy Internet approval). So from latter POV, LOTR was highly successful. Can't deal with Arwen? There's Legorn (portmanteau for Legolas/Aragorn pairing). By far most popular LOTR ship. Laugh

So my point is that if you write a female character who is your Mary Sue (idealized self-insert), she is very likely going to misfire with broad female viewership because they'll sniff out the Sue and won't relate to her. In fact, they'll hate her guts.

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards

Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.



(This post was edited by Semper Fi on Sep 28 2013, 1:57am)


Starling
Half-elven


Sep 28 2013, 1:59am


Views: 577
I must be getting old

Or maybe I speak a different language.
Because I do not understand this post at all.


Elskidor
Rohan

Sep 28 2013, 2:21am


Views: 541
I'm a guy and hated Kate from LOST because she made no sense to me at all

About this movie in particular, my wife did not care for The Hobbit, but loves LoTR. I am dragging her along to DoS and she agreed to give AUJ a second try. She has never read the books though.


IdrilofGondolin
Rohan

Sep 28 2013, 2:27am


Views: 542
How About this

and it may be a little off topic -- The Daryl Zanuck Theory. Girls will go see movies boys will see, but boys won't go to movies girls will see. That's why most movies are geared to 19 year old boys. So that is why there are more movies with lots of male characters and few good female characters. Since girls will go anyway there is no need for "female energy" in the film.


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Sep 28 2013, 2:39am


Views: 538
Don't be surprised.


In Reply To
But I'm surprised by the equal amount of men and women, for the main cast is all mainly men. There are but a couple female in LoTR even less in the Hobbit. It's pretty one sided, really. I figure a lot of women watch for the Legolas, Aragorn and..hmm is Thorin a heart throb now?


Most women watch to see interesting characters, of either sex, and a good story well-told. Sure, eye candy is nice, but that's not a principal motivation for enjoying books or movies, for either men or women in my experience.








Magpie
Immortal


Sep 28 2013, 2:51am


Views: 557
feminine energy?

I don't think I've ever evaluated or rated a movie - in terms of liking it or not - by amounts of feminine energy.

I don't see LOTR or TH as a male or female sort of story and I know lots of women who like the stories and the films.

What draws us to Tolkien is something much deeper than anything one would (or should) label masculine or feminine. It's about life, friendship, perseverance, survival and wounds too deep. It's about stepping out our door for adventures. It's about finding quiet humor in trying times. It's about seeing the world that is bigger than our own sorrows and trails. It's about faith and help unlooked for. It's about mystery and myth. It's about taking time to say the things that are worth talking about. It's about pain and delight. It's about being inside a song. It's about tears of blessedness.

Those things are not within the purview of one gender. Nor one age. Nor one nation or culture. Nor one level of education, social, or economic status.


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Magpie
Immortal


Sep 28 2013, 2:52am


Views: 511
what she said. //

 


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Olessan
Bree


Sep 28 2013, 3:42am


Views: 549
A little sexist;

Making a narrow assumption for such a wide group. It's just that you personally don't know any women that are interested in it. I don't think that undertone was intentional though.
It'd be like me saying, "My brothers aren't interested in sport. They don't like it, so clearly every other man dislikes it too. Those guys that squeal at football games are in the rare minority." or , "Everyone in X country likes to Y." It's a preposterous blanket.

A good 75%+ of the Tolkien fans I know and know of are female, and every time I've seen one of the films at the cinema the gender of audience members has been quite dominantly female as well (for AUJ, I saw it twice on premiere day and again in the weeks following).

In AUJ, there is basically nothing for a female to relate to. All we've really got is Bilbo. Bilbo is however easily relatable for a lot of people, even more so in AUJ. In the book, kind of.
Most of the dwarves are indeed vulgar and unlikeable, but that's a given -- they're dwarves. I imagine the only people who could relate with the dwarves properly are those with similarly poor conduct. I suppose there are also people who could relate to the dwarves' loss of a sense of home, and etc.

I personally relate to Bilbo, and know that the more I can relate to a character, the more I care about them. If the story is bad and the characters shallow, I won't be interested in a movie. Same goes for other genres, for example sci-fi which usually has some fairly stupid storylines and weak characterization. Can't pass up the good stuff though.
When I read the Hobbit, I can't relate to any of the dwarves and so I see them as mostly disposable and flat. They blur together since Tolkien describes them all as being samey (short old bearded men -- boring) with the main differences being clothing and hair colour. I actually find that, in the books, Bard and the Elvenking are both infinitely more interesting than the dwarves. Smaug is even more interesting, probably up there with Bilbo or exceeding him.

I'm female and the biggest fan of The Hobbit, LotR AND fantasy in general, that I know personally and within my social sphere. At least half the males I know in fact are completely disinterested in it despite my attempts to lure them into the fandom. The only male Tolkien fans I know who are as into it as I am are those I know through the internet.
Don't know what you mean by 'female energy' though. Phillipa and Fran Walsh both work on the Hobbit films alongside PJ just like they did with the LotR films.

I think it's just that you don't know a lot of female fans/don't have many in your particular area.

On a lighter note, after all the great things about LotR (films and books) which need no mention, one last thing was quite a few of the characters had the added benefit of being easy on the eyes. That's a minor factor, though. It's all about a good story and deep characters. Aragorn and Faramir, for example, are my favourites, but not because of their looks as a lot of people stupidly assume. I like their story arcs and how they develop, and how they're built as characters overall.


(This post was edited by Olessan on Sep 28 2013, 3:46am)


Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 28 2013, 4:14am


Views: 513
Good for you Mikah!

And Welcome to TORn!

That's a great story.

Wink

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!








Starling
Half-elven


Sep 28 2013, 4:40am


Views: 493
Can you explain why she made no sense to you?

I'm just curious.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Sep 28 2013, 5:55am


Views: 492
Bomby likes to think of all these Books & Movies as...

about WAR!

TH is about War with a Dragon,
First and Fore Most.

LOTR is about War with EVIL
that would destroy their World.
"And cover all the world in Darkness.."

And Yes, Tolkien did concentrate on his
Soldiers in both Both Wars.

What PJ added to great effect
was these consequenes to the Female members
especially at Helm's Deep.
His intercutting to the refugees
in the Glittering Caves
was perfect ...
at least to Bomby & Goldberry at that time.

The Fully fleshed-out story of Aragorn & Arwen
did what it needed to..
so Badly,
from a
Romance angle.

Her Fate tired to
The Fate of The Ring?
Fantastic!

Yes, Aragorn got the Girl
and was King of Gondor
for WHAT?
another 200 years!

Most soldiers are IN any War
to try to keep their Girls Safe.


Kim
Valinor


Sep 28 2013, 5:56am


Views: 481
Nope

I'm female and I love this movie, LOTR movies and other fantasy and sci-fi movies. I have several female friends and family who do too. It really bugs me when critics or others say females don't like these kind of movies. To me, it's a sweeping generalization based on a small sample (no offense to you or your family). Sorry if this comes across a bit harsh, you can probably tell this is is a bit of a hot button for me. :-)


Kim
Valinor


Sep 28 2013, 5:57am


Views: 481
ooh, i like that avatar! //

 


Kim
Valinor


Sep 28 2013, 5:59am


Views: 487
ooh, I like this one even better :-) //

 


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 28 2013, 6:16am


Views: 525
Heh, Starling...

Don't worry about not understanding that post. I'm more worried that I do! It's referring to a sort of fan obsession that doesn't really show up on these boards, but is rampant in certain fandoms and other sites.

Picture the screaming, fainting hordes of Beatles or Elvis groupies in their heyday, and then transfer that sort of intensity to a fictional character. Basically, some fangirls become stalkerishly possessive over their fantasy love interest to the point where they are vicious to anyone who gets in the way, whether fellow fans or other fictional characters. And yes, it tends to be every bit as disturbing as that sounds. Just recently, I saw that a certain celebrity was revealed to be dating someone other than their love interest on their TV show, and was inundated with abusive tweets and tumblr posts from fans who acted like this person was two-timing their co-star - and all of this for no other reason than these fans had decided that because their fictional characters were such a great pair the real life people must be as well. Apparently some people have lost the concept of fiction. It's a weird world out there. Unsure

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Starling
Half-elven


Sep 28 2013, 6:19am


Views: 519
OMG

So you are telling me that Thorin is not a real person?
Don't be ridiculous.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 28 2013, 7:19am


Views: 541
Yes, Starling, there is a Thorin.

He exists as certainly as pride and majesty and amazing hair exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its greatest squeeing and joy. Alas! How dreary would be the world if there were no Thorin. It would be as dreary as if there were no Starlings. There would be no giddy fangirling then, no poetic parodies, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which fandom fills the world would be extinguished. Not believe in Thorin! You might as well not believe in Elves!

Tongue

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Sep 28 2013, 7:43am


Views: 488
Couldn't agree more...

I was about to post the same thing. It's the fact that Tauriel is the token female guard that gets me. Why not have every, I don't know...5th Elven guard a female if you are trying to show that it's not that unusual for a female Elf to be a soldier? It's the giving of Tauriel a prominent talking role that makes her look shoe-horned in as a token gesture to this "feminine energy" they suppose that women viewers need. I for one certainly don't! Smile


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Ż Victoria Monfort


(This post was edited by Eleniel on Sep 28 2013, 7:47am)


Thranderz
Rohan


Sep 28 2013, 7:59am


Views: 484
Oh no!

I certainly wasn't being sexist. I was just asking everyone else on the board for their thoughts on female fans and characters! Smile

I simply walked into Mordor.


dormouse
Half-elven


Sep 28 2013, 8:43am


Views: 467
Speak for yourself - or at least, your girlfriend! ;-)

I'm female, am really enjoying the unrolling of these films as I did the previous ones, and it seems to me that lots of posters here are also female, and are sharing the enjoyment in their very different and individual ways.

Hang it, I've been reading and re-reading the books since I was eight years old, so I don't need anyone to make the stories acceptable to me. As far as 'feminine energy' goes, it's not a phrase
I would ever use, but since we seem to be stuck with it now, I'll go along with it. When I read The Hobbit as a child I don't think I even noticed that all the characters were male. If I had I wouldn't have minded, because I passionately wanted to be a boy. It seemed to go without saying, to me, that boys had all the best stories and got to do the most exciting things. But first and foremost, I just loved the story. Same with LotR, which I came to at about thirteen. It took me somewhere I'd never been, opened a world more beautiful than anything I'd imagined, and I fell in love with it and stayed there. I remember waiting for the Silmarillion, and how desperate it seemed when Tolkien died because maybe those stories would never see print. (Sad too for other reasons of course.)

We're all different. I have female and male friends who love the books, female and male friends who can't see the point of them. But as a woman I would say that in Tolkien's writing as a whole there is a real 'feminine energy', in the female characters he created and the roles he gave to them. It doesn't appear in The Hobbit, but I don't see its insertion into the film by the writing team as a deviation from Tolkien. It would have been wrong, for example, to show the White Council without Galadriel, and odd not to show it at all, since it does play a behind the scenes part in the story. The book is fine as it is, the film will be better for the representation of a few females. And remember that Philippa Boyens is only one member of a writing team, and the ultimate choices are Peter Jackson's.


dormouse
Half-elven


Sep 28 2013, 8:48am


Views: 453
Mods up! 1,000 times mods up!! //

One of the best posts I've ever read here!


dormouse
Half-elven


Sep 28 2013, 8:51am


Views: 460
No, just no....

This is not a typical female viewer trait - honest. There's a lot in your second paragraph I don't even understand.


Starling
Half-elven


Sep 28 2013, 9:15am


Views: 474
The joys of TORn

I had to do some research in order to fully comprehend the brilliance of your reply. Cool
I like this girl. She looks tough. She's got feminine energy! (Note my clever link back to the topic at hand).



demnation
Rohan

Sep 28 2013, 9:37am


Views: 456
Being as unbiased as I can

I'd say that Tolkien fandom is much more evenly split than most. Of course, I have no real evidence for this.

"In the beginning the Universe was created.This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Sep 28 2013, 10:02am


Views: 455
So, as long as we believe in Thorin with all our might,

and if I promise not to be naughty, will he visit my house on Christmas Eve with a sackful of...toys?

Tongue

ROFL at your post, Silverlode. That was priceless.

And now I've got this stuck in my head, to the tune of "Here Comes Santa Claus" and sung as the Dwarves charge out of Erebor during the BO5A:

"Here comes Thorin, here comes Thorin,
Right out of Erebor!
He's got a sword that's gleaming bright and
Ready for battle again!
See that armour shining brightly
Oh what a beautiful sight!"

But then I get pretty sidetracked at the next line, about jumping in bed...


dormouse
Half-elven


Sep 28 2013, 10:24am


Views: 455
Oh wicked..... ;-)

And also priceless! thanks for this, it had me in stitches.

And then I started thinking of any other songs that might have Santa in, and therefore a Thorin application.

"Santa Claus is coming to town"

You'd better watch out, dragon go fly
Azog get out, I'm telling you why
Thorin Oakenshield's in town!

...but then comes the line, 'He sees you when you're sleeping". We do seem to have hit a rich seam of humour here. Wink

And as for "I saw Mummy kissing Santa".... Evil


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Sep 28 2013, 10:36am


Views: 438
I know you didn't mean it to,

but your post made me giggle: that females don't take to these films. I haven't done a statistical analysis for a while, but back in LOTR's heyday a very strong majority of the posters on these boards was female. And many (most?) were enthusiastic fans of either the books or the movies, or both. (I realize you weren't specifically talking about the books, but I think the two go together.) Nowadays I suspect there's still a female majority across all the boards here, though this majority may be less on The Hobbit board. I suspect the relative increase in male posters on The Hobbit board isn't because males like the movie more than females, however, but instead for more complicated reasons. And I'd also suggest that a number of male posters on The Hobbit board in fact are NOT fans of the movie. So gender ratio of active posters doesn't necessarily indicate that one gender is more likely to "take to the films" than the other.

And by far and away, the most enthusiastic fans I know of The Hobbit movie (and the LOTR movies, and the books too) are in fact female -- okay, so maybe I met them here on TORn, but still, they're real people too! And I know men who are polite fans of the movies but who are DEEPLY committed, scholarly fans of the books. I'm married to one of them.

I'd suggest you've got bad luck with your mum and girlfriend. Have to say I've had bad luck with my mum, too. She doesn't get why I find Dwarves so fascinating -- because, as she says, they're not real, and why should I waste my time with things that aren't real? She Doesn't Get It. But that's not because she's female. That's just how she is.

It doesn't take a Y chromosome to appreciate the themes that run throughout Tolkien's work, whether in the books or the movies. We females can appreciate a good imaginative adventure story, where the little people triumph over evil through quiet courage and determination, in a world where wizards fight demons and horses come running when you whistle. Where friendship, honour and loyalty matter, and where a king is known by his healing hands. Where light shines forever beyond the reach of darkness, and where the smallest of beings can topple the mightiest of evils. Where trees and foxes talk, and trolls turn to stone in the daylight Just Like They're Supposed To. Where eagles save the day when they're really needed, and a Werebear can be your saviour -- if you're lucky. What's not to like here? And why should it matter if I'm female or not?

Oh, and did I mention Hot Dwarves? Wink


Glorfindela
Valinor


Sep 28 2013, 10:41am


Views: 445
Females versus males and LOTR/The Hobbit

In my experience online, somewhat more females than males like the Middle-Earth films (I developed friendships with several at the time the LOTR films were released). However, I would like to add that in my circle of off-line acquaintances, no one apart from my sisters pays much attention to either Tolkien's books or the films.

One of the major draws to the films for me has been the portrayal of key male characters: Thorin, Gandalf, Aragorn and Bilbo (in The Hobbit and older Bilbo in FOTR). It is the acting that I value the most (though Thorin is also incredibly attractive of course). Thranduil and Beorn also look promising.

I have found most of the female characters so far quite irritating, and have not liked their expanded roles in the films (especially because of the loss of Glorfindel). The latest one, who has been given so much promotion, is a source of irritation and is unfortunately alienating me when it comes to DoS. I only hope her role will be small, and that she will not be made any kind of major character.


(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Sep 28 2013, 10:46am)


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Sep 28 2013, 10:52am


Views: 434
Relating?


In Reply To

In AUJ, there is basically nothing for a female to relate to. All we've really got is Bilbo. Bilbo is however easily relatable for a lot of people, even more so in AUJ. In the book, kind of.
Most of the dwarves are indeed vulgar and unlikeable, but that's a given -- they're dwarves. I imagine the only people who could relate with the dwarves properly are those with similarly poor conduct. I suppose there are also people who could relate to the dwarves' loss of a sense of home, and etc.




I agreed with most of what you wrote except for this bit. I'm not actually sure what you mean by "relating to", but I think you mean something along the lines of "understand the motivations of and have empathy for" -- correct me if I'm wrong!

Are you suggesting that in AUJ there are things for males to relate to? But not females? I'd really have to disagree with that, for starters just because I don't think the things that males can relate to are fundamentally different from the things that females relate to. Though we have to watch how we define "relating to", of course.

And even setting aside that disagreement, I think there's plenty for a female (not to the exclusion of males, however) to relate to in AUJ (depending, of course, on how we're defining "relate to"). Thorin's a wonderfully complex character, and I think it's pretty easy to relate to his conflicts and complexities. The rest of the Dwarves? Unlikeable??? On the contrary, I adore them! Their table manners might need a touch of refining, and perhaps using your host's parlour furniture for a bonfire might not be the most polite thing to do, but still. I'd hang out with them over The Fellowship any day of the week. Or any month of the year. Or...you get the idea. (Of course, you might accuse my conduct of being similar to that of the Dwarves, but I'll leave that to your judgment!)


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Sep 28 2013, 10:57am


Views: 436
Maybe we need to do a series of parodies

wherein we substitute "Thorin" for "Santa". I wonder how far that could take us.

Actually, no, I don't need to be taken any farther than "I saw Mummy kissing Thorin"! That's good enough for me.

ROFL, dormouse!


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Sep 28 2013, 10:59am


Views: 430
If you find any extra feminine energy, Magpie,

send some of it my way, will ya? My kids are wearing me out!

Well-written as always, Magpie. And I heartily agree.


Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Sep 28 2013, 11:39am


Views: 434
Priceless!

No Thorin? What a bleak and meaningless world that would be. Sly


"Our perennial spiritual and psychological task is to look at things familiar until they become unfamiliar again." --G. K. Chesterton



Semper Fi
Rohan


Sep 28 2013, 11:50am


Views: 432
You said it!

That was perfect! I'm not good with words so big thanks for successfully conveying what I tried but failed miserably, lmao! LaughLaughLaugh

Yep, women tend to be obsessive in different ways than men. Guy obsession is more in detail ("flames on Optimus????") while girl obsession is more relationship-directed. That's how I see it.

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards

Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.



Noria
Gondor

Sep 28 2013, 12:30pm


Views: 413
Another woman here who has loved Tolkien’s books for decades.

We longtime fans of the books accept that the books, especially The Hobbit, are largely (But not exclusively) about males. Some of us are old enough to be accustomed to that, having grown up in a literary world where all the fun stuff happened to guys.

I suspect, though I don’t know of course, that the desire on the part of the film makers to increase the “feminine energy” of the Hobbit movies has more to do with making the movies attractive to movie only fans rather than to book lovers. Most of the latter will see the movies anyway.

The inclusion of female characters is fine with me as long as it works in the context of the movie. I think that Tauriel was featured in the first trailer to emphasize that DoS will introduce new characters and situations, including a badass She-Elf.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Sep 28 2013, 1:04pm


Views: 428
How do you know that Tauriel is the only female guard?

For all that I know, every fifth guard is a female. Do you know something that I don't?

I know you don't "need" to have this "feminine energy", but I don't see why it is a problem. I don't "need" it either. But I am happy to have it.

And I think it is as much "eye candy" for male viewers as it is "feminine energy" for female viewers. Tongue

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Escapist
Gondor


Sep 28 2013, 1:05pm


Views: 403
Well

that's a deep subject.


I like it and I am a girl but I also like math, physics, programming, table-top gaming (I am a GM even), fixing things in my house (as much as I am capable of), Amtgard / LARPing, and things. So it may be a thing that a girl would need to be a tomboyish sort to get into. We have a wild adventure through the wilderness with the brotherhoodly comradery of 13 bearded dudes, an adventure that is so much about friendship rather than romance (a thing that I think girls get pelted with and almost held to at gunpoint to learn to like or die without - literally), and a person growing in their own personal independence and capability (rather than developing a relationship with a significant other who can be presumed to be responsible to take care of them).

My mom doesn't like it but my close friends that are girls seemed to like it well enough (maybe not their favorite but they didn't fall asleep or complain alot or indicate they didn't want to see the next one either). However, those friends of mine which happen to be girls do also have tomboyish streaks and the vast majority of my friends are guys. We all like traipsing through wild places (either actual parks or just our imaginations) on adventures and play-fighting (either physically or using cards and game pieces or both) and seem to all find a ton of value in our friendships - and we all kind of steered clear of that traditional marriage-children path in life with romance often playing a minor role in our day-to-day hopes and concerns (at best).

This movie definitely does not cater to those things which society has defined to be "feminine", however, many girls similarly do not cater to these things - so - girls who haven't bought into the voice of mother culture's calling for them might still like it quite a bit.


burgahobbit
Rohan


Sep 28 2013, 1:09pm


Views: 433
A Mom's review of The Hobbit

I really like this. Here's a review from a Mom who was never much of a fan: http://www.patheos.com/...-one-moms-admission/

"I've found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because I’m afraid, and he gives me courage.” - Gandalf the Grey.

"Do not be afraid Mithrandir, if ever you should need my help, I will come." - Lady Galadriel.

(This post was edited by burgahobbit on Sep 28 2013, 1:09pm)


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Sep 28 2013, 1:19pm


Views: 417
We really have to stop meeting like this...

My posts seem to have some magnetic attraction for you... Tongue


I think you have hit the proverbial nail...I meant to comment about the fact that Tauriel is more than likely created for the benefit of the male viewers, but it wouldn't be "PC" to admit that so we're being told she's meant to appeal to us girls!


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Ż Victoria Monfort


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Sep 28 2013, 2:30pm


Views: 394
I do tend to respond to people who I like and respect more than others //

 

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Thranderz
Rohan


Sep 28 2013, 2:39pm


Views: 398
I have the same "problem"

I am more inclined to reply to someone who I admire. Not gonna name any names but people like Ainur, Ziggy, Roheryn and Daniel are all people that I respect and I like it when they reply to me Blush There are many others too but I'd be typing for a few minutes Wink

I simply walked into Mordor.


StarGodziller
Bree


Sep 28 2013, 3:26pm


Views: 383
I dunno about this...

The UNEXPECTED JOURNEY midnight showing I went to last year had tons of women and girls there.

I'm into Japanese monster films, you know, Godzilla type stuff, now there's a genre predominantly liked by men. I see waaaaaaaay more female Tolkien fans than female kaiju/tokusatsu fans.


Na Vedui
Rohan


Sep 28 2013, 5:12pm


Views: 359
Older readers

"We longtime fans of the books accept that the books, especially The Hobbit, are largely (But not exclusively) about males. Some of us are old enough to be accustomed to that, having grown up in a literary world where all the fun stuff happened to guys."

Yes, this certainly resonates with me. And the easiest guys for girls/women to identify with are ones who are just getting on with their adventures, and/or who relate decently to the women they encounter. Womanisers, and men who continually refer to women in disrespectful ways when they talk about them, are more off-putting because they are constantly throwing their different gender in your face and not in a nice way. Even boy characters can do this, on a smaller scale ("Girls - always crying, and can't throw straight" kind of stuff). Tolkien's male characters (thankfully) belong to the other sort and feel like fellow human beings (even when they are Elves or Dwarves or Wizards). Someone like Bilbo is a lovely hero to follow and really feels like kin. Doesn't *have* to be hot - he's family.


Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


Sep 28 2013, 5:15pm


Views: 368
Hmm, interesting, I've found the opposite in fact. My mum loved it (and she's not usually into fantasy and the such!)

My sis loved it. A couple of my friends who are girls love it. My girlfriend loved it (though then again, she's a Tolkien fanatic like me, so maybe that doesn't count ;) )

Sooo, from my observations, it's been pretty liked amongst girls. I'd actually say -less- so with boys... Most of my friends actually didn't think much of it at all, and some greatly disliked it.. Didn't get that reaction from any of the girls I know!! Wink

So, all in all, it's a mixed bag! Angelic

"So your own praise will forever keep your name green,
Both here on Earth and on the stage of the stars" - J.G.Kittel, writing about the composer Jan Dismas Zelenka (1740)
__________________________________________

Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!
__________________________________________




Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Sep 28 2013, 5:28pm


Views: 344
Mods up! Wonderfully said!

I agree completely, and with Elizabeth as well.

I think they should post your comments here on the main home page. Seriously. Smile

Thank you.


Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


Sep 28 2013, 5:41pm


Views: 330
prefectly agree. Tolkien can/should connect with all, no matter what background //

 

"So your own praise will forever keep your name green,
Both here on Earth and on the stage of the stars" - J.G.Kittel, writing about the composer Jan Dismas Zelenka (1740)
__________________________________________

Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!
__________________________________________




Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Sep 28 2013, 5:52pm


Views: 332
You guys are killing me! :D //

 


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Sep 28 2013, 6:01pm


Views: 353
If this were a movie just about the story of The Hobbit, I'd agree

I also loved the Hobbit with book. However, since the movie-makers are going to take on the events of the wider world at the time of The Hobbit, I'm glad they're giving Galadriel a role as it wouldn't make sense to include the White Council without her.

I also love the fact that there will be another female character that at least has some lines and can't think of a better place to add one than making the prison guard female. It sounds like her character will advance the storyline of why Thranduil showed up at the Battle of Five Armies and why Legolas showed up at the Council of Elrond.

To me, it makes much less sense to ignore the fact that there would have been strong female characters in Middle-earth at the time; again, only because these movies are as much about Middle-earth at the time as they are about the original story of The Hobbit.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 28 2013, 6:18pm


Views: 328
Elf-women generally fight only at extreme need


In Reply To
I was about to post the same thing. It's the fact that Tauriel is the token female guard that gets me. Why not have every, I don't know...5th Elven guard a female if you are trying to show that it's not that unusual for a female Elf to be a soldier? It's the giving of Tauriel a prominent talking role that makes her look shoe-horned in as a token gesture to this "feminine energy" they suppose that women viewers need. I for one certainly don't! Smile



Tolkien wrote that although Elven women are as physically capable as male Elves, they rarely fight because of spiritual reasons. Tauriel should have an exceptional reason for becoming a soldier. I am hoping that we learn of such a motive when we discover more about her background. If Tauriel is a token female then isn't Galadriel as well? Jackson could have shoved the whole Necromancer subplot into the background just as Tolkien did himself.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Sep 28 2013, 6:21pm


Views: 334
wow....

I will never be able to hear that song with a straight face again! Tongue

Silverlode, Ro, Starling-you guys crack me up! Sly

Thanks for the much needed laugh!

Race is meaningless. We all bleed red-no matter who or what we are. What matters is the heart. For each race has those with good hearts and those with bad hearts. You have a good heart. You do not deserve to die.


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Sep 28 2013, 6:22pm


Views: 334
He's got a sword that's gleaming bright

I stopped right there!

Tongue

Vous commencez ŕ m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Sep 28 2013, 6:23pm


Views: 517
Heaven knows Tolkien would never devise a lone female character

who hones her skills with weapons even though it's not lady-like to do so, and cares so much about her people and the events threatening them that she would actually go out into the world and fight in battles even though she's the only 'token' woman among a bunch of men.

Oh, wait. Smile




And, yes, I fully realize that Eowyn is an actual Tolkien character and Tauriel is not, but the concept of a woman warrior certainly isn't foreign to Tolkien. I see Tauriel as a nod to Eowyn, Tolkien and the fact that other races of the time may have had heroic females with similar motivations and results.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





(This post was edited by Altaira on Sep 28 2013, 6:25pm)


Starling
Half-elven


Sep 28 2013, 6:48pm


Views: 505
I don't think it's so much you failing to convey it

as it's my failing to understand it! Laugh
But this:

Quote

Yep, women tend to be obsessive in different ways than men. Guy obsession is more in detail ("flames on Optimus????") while girl obsession is more relationship-directed. That's how I see it.


I totally get.




Na Vedui
Rohan


Sep 28 2013, 8:00pm


Views: 478
To be fair

in a lot of cases there's probably more to the surprising popularity of male pairings among young girls than just possessiveness of the character. It can also, I suspect, be an idealised and "non-threatening" way of starting to explore and work through the idea of relationships, because it comes without all the extraneous baggage that is dragged into, and bedevils, relationships between men and women. Everything from when/whether to start a family, to casual assumptions about who does what around the house, and of course much more which is probably not appropriate to go into here. As such, it would appeal particularly to girls who - consciously or unconsciously - are not comfortable with gender stereotypes for whatever reason.


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Sep 28 2013, 8:10pm


Views: 488
You could say Galadriel is a token female...

by virtue of the inclusion of the DG subplot, but she would only meet that definition if her character had been inserted to replace a male Ring-bearer, for example.

Obviously my comment about every 5th soldier being female was verging on the ridiculous. As you state, female Elves only took up arms in exceptional circumstances. So of course our Tauriel has to be exceptional, doesn't she? She couldn't just be an "ordinary" female from the ranks, she has to have a significant role...


Quote



“She’s slightly reckless and totally ruthless and doesn’t hesitate to kill,” says Lilly

"She's a very, very young elf. She's only 600 years old, unlike Legolas who's
like, 1,900 years old and Thranduil who's about 3,000 years old. She doesn't
have quite the wisdom and pose that those two boys do; she's a little more…
gritty. A little more spontaneous, passionate perhaps."




So the scriptwriters have decided that such a female should have a prominent role as the HEAD of the King's Guard. Obviously she must have been promoted due to her exceptional fighting skills...To me it just seems so contrived that someone so young and reckless and who deliberately defies her King's orders is in a position of authority/responsibility .


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Ż Victoria Monfort


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Sep 28 2013, 8:11pm


Views: 470
Flatterer! //

 


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Ż Victoria Monfort


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Sep 28 2013, 8:21pm


Views: 468
Just tellin' the truth! //

 

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Dwarewien
Rohan


Sep 28 2013, 10:07pm


Views: 464
What's wrong with that?


In Reply To
As for this forum, it's inundated with Thorin fangirls. AngelicWink

even though I prefer the term "fanlady" to ''fangirl" since I'm way too old to still be considered a girl. I can't speak for the rest of the fan base, but with some of us (including myself), it's not just the character, but the actor as well. Not that it makes you any less of a fan if it's just the character, you're just a different kind of fan. I'm that kind of PotC fan, but I'm not that kind of Tolkien fan.Wink

Maybe the reason that some females are put off by these movies is that they think they are too violent (probably more with the LotR movies than the Hobbit), they don't have enough female characters and not enough romance. I don't mind a little romance, and most of my favorite characters are male characters, so it wouldn't bother me if there were no female characters. And just because you happen to be a female fan doesn't mean you can't dress up as your favorite male character for Halloween. I was one of the Nazgul last year (but since I had on the costume backwards, I deleted all the pictures), and a female fan on one of my PotC discussion forums (which is pretty dead in the water) once dressed up as Capt. Jack. She looked pretty good too, but since she couldn't keep the beard on, she had to draw one on with mascara or something. Hey, if it works...

Far over the Misty Mountains cold
To dungeons deep and caverns old
We must away, ere break of day
To find our long-forgotten gold.





DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 28 2013, 10:15pm


Views: 449
There's absolutely nothing wrong with it at all. :-)


Quote
What's wrong with that?


Don't get me wrong, I was only teasing. I didn't intend to insult. Wink


Quote
Not that it makes you any less of a fan if it's just the character, you're just a different kind of fan.


See my later comment:

(I was only joking by the fangirl comment - there are no fangirls or fanboys, just very obsessive Tolkien fanatics. All of which are great!)



Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Sep 29 2013, 1:13am


Views: 426
Ditto! *mods up*

And if I never had to see the term "feminine energy" again, I would be a very happy girl!

**********************************

NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011


FaramirAndEowynMorningStar
Rohan


Sep 29 2013, 10:36am


Views: 402
I certainly do not think it is boring, nor do I believe the characters aren't likeable.

Why on Middle-Earth, if I thought that, would I be here now? Laugh

Seriously, there's thousands of fangirls (if you want to call them that) out there and they all like love the characters in the films and the books.
I am currently fangirling over Faramir and Thorin Oakenshield (though, you all could have guessed that on your own) Wink

....."Loyalty, Honor,
......A Willing Heart.
I can ask no more than that."

...... ~ Thorin Oakenshield


Semper Fi
Rohan


Sep 29 2013, 12:14pm


Views: 400
Considering that Evie, Orli and Lee are about the same age (mid 30s)

Tauriel's supposed youth won't be obvious, unlike if they cast Saorise Ronan as originally intended. IMO, stating the character is young but actor/actress is mature is less bad than having a minor in the role. I can buy "a very young Elf Chief of King's Guard" played by 30something woman "very young Elf Chief of King's Guard" played by a teenager? Sorry but ROTFLMAO!

However, I do agree that they didn't need to incorporate "OMG, she's so special! Look! She's younger! Look! She's the only woman among men!" type of cliché background that gives fanfiction a bad name. Throw in several female Guards with no speaking lines, and don't state how young or not Tauriel is, and you get a better character. She's the Chief of King's Guard who hire both men and women. All we need to know is her role in Elven society (high-ranking military officer) and her ethnicity (Silvan) because they play a role in events. Youth or gender equality do not. She could be reckless because she is. Thorin's reckless and he ain't the youngest dwarf alive. You know what I mean. It's just that too many spices spoil a stew. Tauriel really doesn't need those unnecessary spices.

I mean, Arwen is the youngest Elf in canon yet none of LOTR movies stated that nor they should have since it was irrelevant to the story. So I really don't understand why they are making such a big fuss about Tauriel's age. She'll still look older than Arwen when all 6 movies are viewed as one movie series. How old was Liv when they started filming LOTR in 1999? 22? Yeah, go figure. Just too much unnecessary information.

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards

Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.



Semper Fi
Rohan


Sep 29 2013, 12:28pm


Views: 399
Eh, Eowyn wasn't the youngest Rohirrim eva who held the highest rank in military

She didn't command a platoon or any military unit, let alone one consisted of older and more experienced warriors. Didn't bark orders that they had to obey. Most of all, wasn't a hotheaded military leader who was promoted over more level-headed contenders because of her fantastic fighting skills, as if ability to plan, strategize, keep calm under pressure aren't important skills for leadership. No offense to Mrs Boyens but she is obviously completely clueless about what's looked for in a military captain. Tolkien didn't make such a mistake with Eowyn since he didn't make her the Queen after her hotheaded stunt. A Queen material wouldn't charge into battle at risk of ending her family lineage and plunging the country into civil war over the throne. A Queen material would stay put in Edoras in case both the King and Crown Prince get killed and then try to hold the country together as the new ruler. Eowyn didn't take any of it into consideration which is why she admitted that it wasn't for her. Totally realistic. Just because you can fight, it doesn't mean you can lead and/rule. So, yeah, Tolkien got it right, Boyens got it wrong.

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards

Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.



Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Sep 29 2013, 3:19pm


Views: 383
Whoa

No offense to Phillipa? That sounded pretty offensive to me. It sounded pretty offensive to Eowyn too! It's as if Eowyn did something Tolkien didn't like, or something women weren't supposed to do, so he punished her for it. But, he's the one who wrote her that way in the first place. The reason she didn't become Queen is because Eomer didn't die. She did become the next best thing though: a princess who married her prince and learned to love peaceful things in a time of peace as well as she had loved the things of war in a time of war. I think that Tolkien rewarded her pretty well.

As for Tauriel, I'm interested to learn how you know all those details about her character? Yes, we've seen her fighting, but we've also seen her level-headedness and calm demeanor prevailing over Legolas. I'd personally like to see more than a few seconds of footage before I decide to either condemn or love her, and I would much rather see a flawed female character who pays homage to another flawed female Tolkien character than to have all the females in the movie relegated to boring, traditional roles, or no roles at all.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





dormouse
Half-elven


Sep 29 2013, 5:57pm


Views: 362
Er.....

Sorry, you've lost me completely here. So far as I can see, no one has actually said that Eowyn did all these things. Or, for that matter, that anyone else did them, or that anyone else is going to do them.

If it's Tauriel you're talking about, as Altaira suggests, how on earth does all this relate to the little we know of her? Does she bark orders at people? Is she going to become a Queen?

Seems to me you're making an awful lot of wild assumptions here, and insulting Philippa Boyens on the strength of them seems a bit much. Particularly as she is only one member of a writing team, and even if she had done all the things you're suggesting (and I'll lay odds she hasn't), the final decision would not be hers.


Semper Fi
Rohan


Sep 29 2013, 7:12pm


Views: 343
Well, writers are clueless

about who makes the cut as the leader. Maybe it plays out differently in the movie, but based on all the hotheaded, too passionate, not wise enough, can't restrain herself talk about Tauriel's personality, you bet she would never make the cut as any military leader, especially when youth, wrong side of the tracks (Silvan) and lack of experience (older warriors surely have more) work against her on top of unsuitable personality (for that rank, not for soldiering in general). I'm sorry but who in their right mind would ever promote such a person to the rank of Captain? I get that this is a fantasy movie but fantasy works the best when based in some reality and this is not it. This is not based on women in military research or military research in general. It sounds like a compilation of fanfiction tropes. And lets not forget that Tauriel (formerly Itaril) was meant to be played by a teenager! So, yeah, so clueless.

OTOH, Tolkien didn't try to pass Eowyn as a warrior pro. She went into the battle on impulse and pretty much signed up for a different job when it was over. Didn't lead, didn't do anything a senior officer would be asked to do. And leaving her post as the possibly last surviving member of her royal family does show she would not be a good Queen. I never said Tolkien punished her for anything. IMO, he perfectly assessed that she was not the political, ruler type and gave her station that is more suitable and in character (a Princess who is also a healer/doctor). That one was not cut to be a Queen is not an insult. Some people are , some aren't. Eowyn was too implsive for that. But Tolkien knew that and developed the character accordingly. He didn't go "gee, but she's slain the Witch King so she should be the Queen, never mind that she put the dynasty and political stability of Rohan in jeopardy". Seeing fighting prowess as alpha and omega of everything is not seeing forest for trees. It's a big tree but it isn't a forest that makes one a Queen or Captain. Tolkien didn't make that mistake but then again, he didn't live in the Age of Fanfic either. Laugh So who knows how LOTR and Hobbit would turn out if he did.

And I'm not forgetting that it's Evie casting that saved us from Teenuriel not how the character is envisioned.

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards

Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.



(This post was edited by Semper Fi on Sep 29 2013, 7:18pm)


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Sep 29 2013, 7:37pm


Views: 317
Wow what a post

I have absolutely nothing more to add on the precise point, my thoughts entirely.

I have a suspicion that Phillipa would have helped her cause ( the nature of this adaption) if she had contextualised the inclusion of Tauriel in a much broader statement.

When Tolkien wrote the follow up to the Hobbit once the story really got under weigh and he had re written it from the beginning he made three strategic changes.

1) Evil became all pervasive.

2) He used multiple storylines and developed each one.

3) He wrought many finely etched characters.

Lets consider just number 3. He achieved this in a number of ways :-

1) As in life, characters were shades of grey rather than mere stereotypes. Grima and the self important hobbits of the Scouring and the first chapter dismissing Baggins as mad.

2) They were fully wrought both by their inner cohesion (Aragorn) and their relationships with others.

3) Family interaction became important Arwen/Elrond Théoden/Theodred/Eowyn/Eomer Denethor/Boromir/Faramir. Beregond/Bergil

and finally woman were included.

Arwen/Galadriel/Eowyn and Ioreth and the effect of other woman Finduilas and the Ent Wives.

If you are going to reimagine the Hobbit in the manner of the LOTR films you will make the same kind of changes as film makers as Tolkien did as a writer.

Galadriel was a shoe in but if you are going to give breadth and depth to the people of the wood and the lake then woman and children will emerge from the expansion.

If you write a big story which crosses Wilder land and its peoples it would be odd if there were no children or woman. Woman appear through out his other adult work.

I think the tokenism that we perceive is a mirror into our own thinking particularly if we are ready to take that view before the next two movies have appeared. Tauriel may be clumsy and appear unnecessary but then so may other male characters that are given more prominence than the book or are new to the film . My view of Tauriel is whether she works inside the story and adds depth to the story of the Sindarian Princes and Silvan Elves and is a natural extension of the wood elves DNA its that simple.






In Reply To
I don't think I've ever evaluated or rated a movie - in terms of liking it or not - by amounts of feminine energy.

I don't see LOTR or TH as a male or female sort of story and I know lots of women who like the stories and the films.

What draws us to Tolkien is something much deeper than anything one would (or should) label masculine or feminine. It's about life, friendship, perseverance, survival and wounds too deep. It's about stepping out our door for adventures. It's about finding quiet humor in trying times. It's about seeing the world that is bigger than our own sorrows and trails. It's about faith and help unlooked for. It's about mystery and myth. It's about taking time to say the things that are worth talking about. It's about pain and delight. It's about being inside a song. It's about tears of blessedness.

Those things are not within the purview of one gender. Nor one age. Nor one nation or culture. Nor one level of education, social, or economic status.


My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Sep 29 2013, 7:42pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Sep 29 2013, 7:41pm


Views: 318
Erm.....

Is that all writers? As a writer, and one who is even now working on a book on a subject of military history, may I take offence at that, please? Only joking. I'm not the offendable type - thank goodness! But honestly, all writers are clueless? It's getting worse.

Just for your information, and not that it has anything whatever to do with Tauriel, in Tolkien's own time army officers - in Britain at least, and a lot of European countries too - were chosen on the grounds of birth and/or education and yes, were often a lot younger and less experienced than the men they commanded. Some only in their teens. That's how he came to be a junior officer (and again, Captain is a fairly junior commissioned rank).

But I don't think any of that is even faintly relevant to Tauriel. You seem to have worked out a complete story line for her, which doesn't seem to bear much relation to anything we've seen or been told. And who is becoming Queen?


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Sep 29 2013, 8:53pm


Views: 309
What we know...

...about Tauriel mostly comes from Lilly herself (from an interview in Total Film):
“She’s a very, very young elf. She’s only 600 years old, unlike Legolas who’s like, 1,900 years old and Thranduil who’s about 3,000 years old. She doesn’t have quite the wisdom and poise that those two boys do; she’s a little more… gritty. A little more spontaneous, passionate perhaps. To play this character I need to have a certain amount of grace. But I’m also supposed to be an absolutely ruthless, deadly killer.”


In Reply To
As for Tauriel, I'm interested to learn how you know all those details about her character? Yes, we've seen her fighting, but we've also seen her level-headedness and calm demeanor prevailing over Legolas. I'd personally like to see more than a few seconds of footage before I decide to either condemn or love her, and I would much rather see a flawed female character who pays homage to another flawed female Tolkien character than to have all the females in the movie relegated to boring, traditional roles, or no roles at all.









Semper Fi
Rohan


Sep 29 2013, 9:07pm


Views: 291
Not all writers, only this movie ones

I'm glad you're a writer so I can ask you this: how hard is it to create a believable female military officer? Someone who doesn't fall in love with a guy from her job, doesn't do rush things so he has to run after her to save her neck. someone who isn't commanding men and women twice her age, etc? Yes, I know that many soldiers were in their teens, especially in Vietnam, for example, but there was no situation where those teen captains were commanding men twice their age and experience.

I expect Tauriel to be a fun character and Evie to bring maturity that teen actress the character was modeled after wouldn't. I'm just saying that it wouldn't hurt if she was modeled after a real military woman.

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards

Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.



dormouse
Half-elven


Sep 29 2013, 9:55pm


Views: 288
Many situations, actually

Maybe not in Vietnam, but certainly in the First World War, officers in their teens did command men with twice their age and experience. They did lead older, more experienced men into battle. For that matter, go back in history to a time when armies had a less formal structure and still you'd find teenagers who happened to come from wealthy backgrounds commanding older, more experienced soldiers. Which is still not particularly relevant to wood elves, but it's a fact.

Making anything believable is about research, and it's about your own understanding of people and situations. But I'll say it again because you still don't seem to be getting the point, as yet we don't know what they've modelled Tauriel on. We don't know what research they've done. We don't know what her role is to be. For all I know they might have spoken to female soldiers - though personally I hope they've read all the Tolkien they can lay their hands on. You cannot possibly make such sweeping judgements of something you haven't seen and know very little about.


Semper Fi
Rohan


Sep 29 2013, 10:56pm


Views: 273
Considering that they gave Eowyn a stew-cooking scene

which was completely, 100% out of character and against what she stood for, I'm very skeptical that they understand much or research much. I mean, they didn't even have to research Eowyn to know she wouldn't try to impress Aragorn by cooking a stew. That's all in the book. But anyway, we made our points, and I really appreciate yours because you are a writer. That's a rare and valuable perspective on the forum.

I like the idea that we have a military woman in the movie. I just wish she's less TV Tropes-y and more military but I'm positive that Evie's charm will compensate for script shortcomings (assuming there are some). There are many characters in movies who are winsome because actor's charm rises above scripted characterization.

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards

Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.



Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 30 2013, 1:25am


Views: 261
I'm glad you figured it out.

I did wonder after I posted it whether you'd recognize the reference or not. But Google is good for that sort of thing. Cool

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 30 2013, 1:28am


Views: 265
There are certainly plenty of parody opportunities there....

but it seems we might have some trouble keeping them within the bounds of the family board. The gutter is just so much closer when one is dealing with dwarves than with elves... WinkAngelic

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



glor
Rohan

Sep 30 2013, 1:50am


Views: 259
Becoming Queen has nothing to do with character

and everything to do with order of birth or marriage if you are marrying the heir to the Throne/King (ask Kate Middleton).

Royal thrones are not decided by votes, character, just birth order and sex.

Eomer as son and Heir to the throne was responsible for the dynasty not, his sister who would by marrying produce offspring for her husbands line or dynasty, not the one she was born into. The world of men in middle-earth practiced primogenitor, it is males who produce dynasties, females just produce.


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Sep 30 2013, 1:52am


Views: 255
But in Rohan...

Eomer was Theoden's sister-son.


glor
Rohan

Sep 30 2013, 1:59am


Views: 193
yes

but wasn't he adopted by Theoden, thus making him heir i.e. the adoption rather than the sister son bit sealed his inheritance

hope my memory is holding up on this one, although things can get complicated when it comes to primogenitor and no direct male descendants. 'adoption' was used historically where no direct male heir lived to secure the line and throne, a way of ensuring continuity and political stability.


(This post was edited by glor on Sep 30 2013, 2:01am)


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 30 2013, 2:03am


Views: 188
Yes, but...

Until Theodred died, he was the heir. Failing heirs of Theoden's body, the heir is the next closest-related male in the royal line, which is Eomer. It doesn't sound like there are a lot of backup royals in the line. This is why royalty have traditionally wanted several offspring to secure the succession, especially in times and places which have a relatively short life expectancy or a lot of infant mortality and death by accident or illness.

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Starling
Half-elven


Sep 30 2013, 2:16am


Views: 181
I was familiar

with the "Yes Virginia..." line, but never knew its origin, so it was fun finding out. Smile


Starling
Half-elven


Sep 30 2013, 2:19am


Views: 182
We are all in the gutter...

...but some of us are looking at the stars. Cool


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Sep 30 2013, 4:06am


Views: 193
Not sure what planet you're living on....

... but I know quite a few rabid female fans.

Of course, I understand how one might be surrounded by folk who are not of the same viewpoint; I am continually asked "are you really from around here?" (yes, I was indeed born in this very conservative and yea, even backward, backwater of Pennsylvania).

A female friend dumped the original LOTR series on me, a female aritst's (Judy King-Reniets) illustration of the Fellowship (specifically the Blond Guy With The Bow) encouraged me to actually pick it up and read it back in 1978. I found the epic adventure quite to my liking, I found the films quite to my liking (particularly the several appealing males). I've found The Hobbit amazingly to my liking despite its total lack of Elves (so far), the Dwarf band has proven to be a very appealing lot (earflap hats rule) to not only me but many female fans (a quick tour of tumblr will reveal some stuff you might prefer not to be revealed).

And the more I see of Tauriel, the more I ask, "where were you when I was 22? Because you're that D&D/cosplay/living history character I was playing all those years!"

Go outside and play...






Semper Fi
Rohan


Sep 30 2013, 12:38pm


Views: 152
if all males of the lineage died

Eowyn would have to take the reigns of the country a la Elizabeth I. Which she didn't want to do, hence going into the battle expecting to die like everyone else. She also told Faramir she didn't want to be a Queen when he said he was only a Prince. I se eno problem here. I'm just pointing out that Tolkien got it right. making her the Queen just because she killed the big bad would be too fanfic and Tolkien doesn't do fanfic. Laugh

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards

Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 30 2013, 2:27pm


Views: 147
There has been a little more background since then


In Reply To
...about Tauriel mostly comes from Lilly herself (from an interview in Total Film):
“She’s a very, very young elf. She’s only 600 years old, unlike Legolas who’s like, 1,900 years old and Thranduil who’s about 3,000 years old. She doesn’t have quite the wisdom and poise that those two boys do; she’s a little more… gritty. A little more spontaneous, passionate perhaps. To play this character I need to have a certain amount of grace. But I’m also supposed to be an absolutely ruthless, deadly killer.”



More recent articles have suggested that Tauriel may be even younger, giving her an age of 300 years. It will be interesting to see how her official backstory plays out.

Since Tolkien's Elves seem to mature to adulthood only a little more slowly than mortal Men, I presume that Itaril would have been less than 50 years old (assuming that Saoirse Ronan or an actress of similar age had agreed to portray the character).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 30 2013, 2:29pm)


Werde Spinner
Rohan


Sep 30 2013, 3:27pm


Views: 163
Amen, sister!

Your post sums up a lot of my feelings on this subject perfectly. I have had no problem relating at all to the Dwarves. Maybe it comes from having two rambunctious brothers and two equally rambunctious cousins, but very little of the Dwarves' behaviro in AUJ surprised me. I love 'em. I'd hang out with them any day. Tongue

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."