"I have set up these points in two posts, to keep the discussion easy to follow."

What's this, making things in the RR easy? Hey, I want a challenge here, not be spoon-fed. I propose you rewrite things in iambic pentameter AND write them backwards. The RR is NOT for sissies.

Not that that means anything, or maybe it does and I'm not sure what. You are quite right - and the sound of a deep sort of kettle drum does sound like that...but a very effective spelling isn't it? **(NB: It also makes a pretty kickin' video game, or a name for a very spicy dip...."pass the Doom Dip and the Mylanta...thanks!")

Ahem. back to topic....you are so distracting CG. I will take a break from making those hurdles for a minute.

*****Good stories need tension, and JRR bases his spiritual legendarium on a profound dissatisfaction with one's fate. *****The grass is always greener on the other side, isn't it? Men want Elvish immortality, and Elves want to the Gift of Men to escape Arda. It almost seems childish, doesn't it? "Whatever I have isn't good enough. I want the toys that other kid has." Though I would say that the Elves don't go to such destructive lengths in seeking human fate as the mortals do in struggling for immortality and seem more refined in their melancholy but dignified acceptance their destiny and lack of choice in it.

All your points are wonderful (as per your usual) but that bit I starred above is such a lynchpin emotional and philosophical state that unite the Firstborn and the Followers isn't it? And its one we, as reads, can readily comprehend too. As far as destructiveness though - while Men seem to break up the barroom with their brawling (as it were) the Elves might be quiet and dignified about it, but there is the small matter of those pesky Rings that got made in response...so it seems each race rather picked their own poison?
Those reactions can be reversed, of course, when you think of Aragorn and Arwen. He faces death willingly and serenely, but she finds it "bitter to receive," and her bitterness doesn't seem fleeting. I wonder here if (Aragorn's basic nobility of spirit aside) its easier to give up what you haven't had already. Arwen has had so much time and been Firstborn her whole life...so the sacrifice means a lot to her, whereas Aragorn as grown up knowing the day of reckoning would come.

Those are my general observations. I really like your question about if Elves' innate creativity makes them seek the Unknown, since creativity usually means reaching into the Unknown and pulling something out of it into the known world for everyone else to see and appreciate. Did they yearn for "the other fate" not entirely because they wanted to leave Arda, but because they just couldn't help being so curious about what lay beyond it? (If they'd follow the implied advice of my avatar, a little ice cream goes a long way in allaying the frustration of unsated knowledge.) That's exactly why I wanted to bring that up; we get a glimpse of that endless curiosity reading about how the Elves woke up the trees to talk (that can't have been fast, or easy, and who thought of that - to even try to wake them up. The intense wanting to KNOW, to find out, to interact...its there underneath the ageless exterior. Even back to Feanor, who alone figured out how to trap the light of the Trees. (Oh dear...was ice cream the answer the whole time...?) I feel like that boundless inquiry would have maybe made them a bit batty in regards to this mysterious fate of Men: that no matter what they do, they don't get an answer to. (Even after asking Mandos, which is usually *so* helpful... )

One of the things that makes Arda interesting is that no one has all the answers (except taciturn Mandos). The Valar are wise, but there's plenty they don't know, and it seems like they have a sort of paralysis when they don't have all the facts and can't see all the outcomes. Which may be a mild excuse for why they don't intervene more in M-earth. Yes I think you may have a point here too - like when Numenor invades, they don't want to act without Eru because I don't think they understand what's happening entirely or what Eru would choose: the Children of God are HIS children, not the Valar's, so they don't have all the answers and they don't want to make a mistake, like destroying something that originates with the Divine (which relates a bit back to that lovely philosophy we got thanks to Terazed: in contemplating the creations of Eru, the Valar may be honoring Eru; and perhaps feeling the inverse applies as well, explaining that call for help.)

When they do summon the confidence to take action, they have no problem wiping the floor with Morgoth, That's true: when it comes to 'one of their own' they seem much more secure in their footing don't they? but they made a couple big goofs in the migration of the Eldar to Valinor and creating Numenor as a gift to the Edain. All races grope in the dark to figure out Eru's plan, even the angelic powers in the Great Music, who were closer to the Core Truth than anyone else. I'm not sure that the Elivsh migration and Numenor creation were mistakes in themselves, and it may be fairer to say that the long-term management of the consequences of those decisions was the real problem. Could the Valar have done more to contain the unrest of the Noldor in Valinor, maybe getting Feanor a life coach instead of letting him sprial downwards? Could they have sent teachers to Numenor to explain, "Look, this is how it is, and you need to get a better perspective on things or this island is going to turn into the seafloor." That's what I'm not sure about - *could* some sort of understanding be reached, without Sauron messing about? Or is the gifting of the island, in sight of the borders of the Immortal Lands, the Pandora's Box opened, and the resolution inevitable?

I think that's why Eru is distinct from the Valar in profound ways. They are his children, learning as they go. He's got all the answers. Tolkien is able to have an omniscient single god opposed to some well-intentioned but occasionally bumbling angels, sort of a yin and yang. Eru seems to *want* Valar, Elves, and Men to trust their better instincts and learn through their mistakes rather than be spoon-fed (hmm, didn't I mention that already?). That view conforms with many religions and seems a natural fit for life in the real world where we wonder why things sometimes go right, and sometimes go very wrong despite everything we thought we were doing right. And maybe by giving faces to the 'wrong goings' at times it makes it more easy for us to identify with?

**The envy of the Elves for the Gift of Men: a literary inversion, as the 'superior' race envies the second-born, weaker race. "The Doom (or the Gift) of Men is mortality, freedom from the cycles of the world. Since the point of view of the whole cycle is the Elvish, mortality is not explained mythically: it is a mystery of God of which no more is known than that 'what God proposed for Men is hidden': a grief and envy to the immortal Elves." But is the implication here that the Fate of Men is sweeter than the immortal life within the circles of the world - or is he saying that that the lure of the Unknown, as seen by the Elves, is enough in itself in a curious and seeking mind to inspire the envy that they feel?

I depart from the home of desire, I flee forever the home of delusion; the open gates of eternal becoming I close behind me now: to the holiest chosen land, free from desire and delusion, the goal of the world's migration, redeemed from reincarnation, the enlightened woman now goes. The blessed end of all things eternal, do you know how I attained it? Grieving love's profoundest suffering opened my eyes for me: I saw the world end.

In the consciousness of the infinite, the conscious subject has for his object the infinity of his own nature.

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The romantics had an interesting view of love. They felt that all love would fade with time. Death was the only way to avoid the fading. In the novels of the period you might see lovers in the heat of their passion talking about death. It may be strange to us but it made sense at the time. This is the reason why. This brings me to my first point about why the immortal elves may envy mortals. The downfall of the aesthetic life is the loss of one's humanity. Emotions such as love eventually fade away. Herman Hesse is terrific in 'Siddhartha' in pointing out the aesthetic life vs the sensual life and the benefits of both. **The fading the elves may fear may be the loss of their emotions.

I think that is absolutely spot on. I think when JRRT describes the Elves becoming weary (like the butter scraped too far) of the world, united with the passionate love for that world, they face that loss, that joy in life and both Creation and sub-creation. And being giving the physical bond to Arda with Immortality their only choice is to watch the fading of their creations and the things they have made, with the inevitable rise of Men.

Since their 'fading' is one of retreat, they become spectators to the changes wrought by time and by another race, whose priorities and choice are much different than theirs - wringing dry that last bit of beloved connection to the physical world. Here then is the rationale for the 'stern counsel' perhaps, to sail West and not to linger...before these events can happen: the relative 'death' before the fading, as the Romantic era notions you described would phrase it.

Yet of course sailing, even to the Blessed Realm, still means giving up the world while it is still green. A hard choice.

Doesn't the immortal/mortal conflict go all the way back to first the written records? There's Adam & Eve, and before that, Gilgamesh. The Gilgamesh story was so compelling that it was rewritten by hand for centuries, enduring the fall of various civilizations. The fact that he never achieves immortality didn't seem to dissuade readers from wanting to follow his journey.

Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error) but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real world'

'In the consciousness of the infinite, the conscious subject has for his object the infinity of his own nature

but the elves are there (in my tales) to demonstrate the difference. Their 'magic' is art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete.

but, Aragorn also made a similar choice. He released his spirit from his body, at will, so that he did not descend into madness and dishonor. ...Aragorn departed while life was still 'green' and still full, and also departed from Arwen: in the ideal as Terazed put forth connecting these ideas with a (latent?) sort of Romanticism it makes sense, and also I think highlights the vast difficulty of the decision, if by definition the way to preserve memory *before* it decays is to leave life at its fullest - prior to decay, madness and dishonor. I always thought that was strange, but perhaps memory, as the focus of the Men, as mortals, had the same compulsion for the Elves? The Elves sought to 'live', as it were, in the memory, while Men accepted the loss. Maybe Men held on to the memory, but Elves, able to 'walk/live in their memories'(I think Legolas did it? The books are not before me at the moment.) were more obsessed with the preservation of the object, itself, over the 'memory'? Perhaps Men had a thing or two to teach the Firstborn? Potentially...I was actually watching TTT for a bit last night (it was on network TV) and of course I had to watch Aragorn's entombment scene (so powerful.) What occurred to me as I watched Liv portray Arwen's struggle to comprehend the loss is the Pandora's Box metaphor that came up upthread with CG. Here we have an Immortal struggling to cope with mortality on a very personal level: is her struggle with the concept and with the loss, or with the relative loss of her own previous life? Had she never known immortality, would that have changed her grief about Aragorn's choice? And the inverse in Numenor, having sight and the oh-so-almost grasp on Immortality(as they saw it) yet not actually having it...is that experience, bas-relief of Arwen's what changed them forever, and made it impossible for them to simply accept their own fate? In both cases, is it a box once opened, and the contents seen, that changes the perceptions forever? Interested in more of your ideas!

The fading comes from knowing too much. In the movies, this was shown beautifully on Legolas’ face after Gandalf and then Boromir died. Elves don’t “get” death the way men do, so watching Legolas deal with the ending of a life close to him was telling. A little bit of the light went out of his eyes. Think about the crush of days and experiences the elves lived through. After a time, all those memories and experiences become stronger than the original music. The vibrancy fades. They have seen too much for too long.

I completely love the metaphor you are using here Ioreth! And this bit above seems to me to tie into the Song as well - with the 'knowing too much' and the changing of the world, with Death suddenly around everywhere, Men are the vector of that change. It is their fragile mortality I think that, in your sense of knowing too much, and the excellent and touching idea of the light fading in an Elf's eyes watching death, may contribute to that weariness and fading of vibrancy and joy. Certainly the Elves were exposed earlier to other Mortals - the Dwarves - but not only do they live longer, die much less easy - they do it all in maximal secrecy. And this also follows the Song, as it is not the Dwarves who are the followers described by Eru, but the Edain. And then, self-fulfilling: as more Elves leave the shores of Arda, there is less of their present vibrancy, their life and subcreative force, at work. Harder every year for those that stayed!

As with Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden, the quest for knowledge, the use of the music, led them away from the purity of the original creation. From the time they chose to experiment, they started to dim what was given to them. Eru is perfection, all other things must be less and the farther away they move with their own creations from the original, the dimmer it gets. A built in part of Eru's plan? With their mandate and their native desire to subcreate and change, that in itself changes original creation. A sense of inexorability in the Song - in that sense, the 'Fate' notion of the tales?

I felt death grabbing me. It wasn't so bad. You are all here as if you weren't here. You are things and shadows. To die, to go away... It's all the same. Alas, one should not live so long. If only you knew how easy your life is. You are so close to everything. Everything has meaning to you. Everything has a value for you. You are so happy. Stupid coincidence lets you die early. You believe in humanity, in greatness and love. You could not ask for anything more. But in me life has halted. Jesus Christ! I can go no further! This terrible loneliness! Krista, it is all in vain, singing or staying silent . You grow tired of goodness. You grow tired of badness. Earth becomes boring. Heaven bores you. And you feel you soul die within you...I don't want it anymore. Here, take it. Nobody wants it? Krista dear, I took your boyfriend. You are beautiful, you have it! You'll be famous! You'll sing like Emilia Marty!

The ultimate fate of Men is unknown to anyone , whereas the elves know quite a bit about what waits for them chez Mandos. So Men are being asked to have faith that Eru has something appropriate in mind. That's a big ask, and the Enemy takes advantage of this several times during the story.

Is this meant to reflect on the problems of faith (or lack of it) in real life? Or something else ?

What really does it mean 'to fade'? I am puzzling out a few ideas here. That is why I posed the question, I think on both levels of Men and Elves, and in a physical and spiritual sense, it has meaning. The question is, what meanings, and do they apply to both races? (We can leave Dwarves out: Dwarves do not fade; which has always made me see it is a primary Spirit function.)


They were fading and becoming less important as a power factor in ME. The were becoming less imposing, and thier strength could no longer besiege Sauron, as they had Morgoth in Angband. They were being eclipsed by Men and other factors, but not lessening, only becoming comparatively less as Men became stronger.

Well phrased idea Rem. This fits very well with the description "The doom of the Elves is to be immortal, to love the beauty of the world, to bring it to full flower with their gifts of delicacy and perfection, to last while it lasts, never leaving it even when 'slain', but returning - and yet, when the Followers come, to teach them, and make way for them, to 'fade' (bold by me) **as the Followers grow and absorb the life from which they both proceed."

It would seem that JRRT saw Men, the Followers, as exactly that 'eclipsing' force, absorbing life (in terms of creative force? Touch with the land itself?) and remaking that which the Elves had subcreatively changed to their liking and need.

The Ulari could also be termed to 'fade' by this definition. They were eclipsed by Sauron and dominated by his will. The world had changed for them, with their friends and kingdom gone. Where else could they go? Very interesting characterization here. Both the pleasures of life taken. On a purely 'physical' plane, do you read it as a transformation - the survival of their fea without hroa - or it is deeper? Symbolically, the ultimate loss of faith perhaps?

I would love to continue this comparison of the RW and Elves! Its quite a topic...

---

"Someone was singing - what was it - 'In every wood, in every Spring, there is a different green'? That's the kind of nonsense you believe when you're young. Can't say I've seen a different green for thousands of years. Anyway, the woods around here just don't seem to be like the old days, in Beleriand: now those were proper Springs! You want to see Green, and Spring - should have been alive then, I tell you.

"Can't say I hold with these modern songs anyway. Hardly worth visiting the Hall of Fire these days - the only good songs are the old ones, and they don't sing those right any more. And they're letting mortals in these days. I don't hold with that: they come here wanting our hospitality and then before you've even got to know them they've 'died' and it's down to us to dispose of what's left of them. Hardly worth bothering with, if you ask me, though I don't doubt they'll learn all they can from us before spoiling things so much that we all up and leave and go West.

"Don't learn from the past; that's what's wrong with these mortals. Take this war with Sauron now. I said to Elrond 'We tried it in the Second Age and it didn't work; it won't work now. Men'll undermine it, just like they did before.' But I dare say someone will do rather nicely out of it, they always do."

---

That's how I imagine it, anyway - a sort of spiritual illness causing loss of joy in the world and hope for the future. Nothing new is as good as it was in the past; everything has been tried and found wanting. New thoughts and ideas just aren't worth the bother any more. Effort is bound to be futile. Cynical schemes must be behind any attempt to do anything good. Your world-weary (literally) dialogue rings true Furincurunir.

You get glimpses of this even in Elrond ("many defeats, and many fruitless victories" or Galadriel ("fighting the long retreat"). But a bit of geopolitical scheming and a sense of duty can still cheer them up enough to take action; to use their experience practically by learning from the past. They may be an example of how one perseveres - despite the rise of Men, because of the political nature of their positions in ME, they still have 'subcreative' tasks at hand, still bale to function as they were born to: the energy and drive to still make change and take action, as you say. In one remaining realm...and once that is resolved, they leave as well.

Everything is spelled out for Elves about their fate. Men have to accept their fate without knowing what it is, so they have to take it with faith. If it really was a gift and not a curse, the Numenoreans wouldn't have taken the path they did. They might even have snickered at the Eldar."Ha ha, we get to leave Arda for some nice palm beaches in our next life, and your stuck here."

Elves seem to fall from lack of wisdom, whereas Men fall from lack of faith.

What you're describing seems to me how a real-world human feels when they grow old and feel estranged from the younger generation. Elves don't grow old on the outside, but they appear to on the inside. That endless old age feeling that the world has passed you by ("what's with kids these days wearing rings in their noses and covering their bodies with tattoos?") and will never swing around back to what you once enjoyed about it would be torture. So do Elves fade just because they do, or because of their reactions to the world? If they continuously thought that whatever was new was desirable, would they fade

What occurred to me as I watched Liv portray Arwen's struggle to comprehend the loss is the Pandora's Box metaphor that came up upthread with CG. Here we have an Immortal struggling to cope with mortality on a very personal level: is her struggle with the concept and with the loss, or with the relative loss of her own previous life? Had she never known immortality, would that have changed her grief about Aragorn's choice?

TRISTAN Oh, now we were dedicated to Night! Spiteful Day with ready envy could part us with its tricks but no longer mislead us with guile. Its vain glory, its flaunting display are mocked by those to whom Night has granted sight. The fleeting flashes of its flickering light no longer dazzle us. Before him who has seen with love death's night, before him to whom she confided her dark secret, are scattered the lies, the renown and honour of Day, power and advantage shining and glorious, as the paltry dust caught in the sunbeam! Amid the vain fancy of Day he still harbours one desire - the yearning for sacred Night where, all-eternal, true alone, love's bliss smiles on him!
TOGETHER Descend, O Night of love, grant oblivion that I may live; take me up into your bosom, release me from the world!
TRISTAN Extinguished now the last glimmers;
ISOLDE what we thought, what we imagined;
TRISTAN all thought
ISOLDE all remembering,
TOGETHER the glorious presentiment of sacred twilight extinguishes imagined terrors, world-redeeming.
...
TOGETHER then am I myself the world; floating in sublime bliss, life of love most sacred, the sweetly conscious undeluded wish never again to waken.

TRISTAN Our love? Tristan's love? Yours and mine, Isolde's love? What strokes of death could ever make it yield? If mighty Death stood before me threatening the very life in my body which I would so gladly leave for love,how could it reach love itself? Were I to give my life to that for which I would so gladly die, how could love die with me, the ever-living end with me? And if his love were never to die how could Tristan die of his love?
ISOLDE But our love, is it not Tristan and Isolde? This sweet little word: and, would death not destroy the bonds of love which it entwines if Tristan were to die?
TRISTAN What could die but that which troubles us, preventing Tristan from ever loving Isolde, forever loving only her?
ISOLDE Yet this little word: and, were it destroyed, how else but together with Isolde's own life would death be given to Tristan?
TRISTAN Thus might we die, that together, ever one, without end, never waking, never fearing, namelessly enveloped in love, given up to each other, to live only for love!
...
TRISTAN Tristan you, I Isolde, no longer Tristan.
ISOLDE You Isolde, Tristan I, no longer Isolde!
TOGETHER Un-named, free from parting, new perception, new enkindling; ever endless self-knowing; warmly glowing heart, love's utmost joy!

TRISTAN Wherever Tristan now goes will you, Isolde, follow him? To that land of which Tristan spoke, where the sun's light does not shine; it is the dark land of Night out of which my mother sent me when he, whom she bore on her deathbed, left her in death to reach the light. From that which, when she bore me, was her fortress of love, the wondrous realm of Night, I then awoke. That is what Tristan offers you, thither he will precede you. Whether she will follow him in grace and faith, let Isolde now tell him.
ISOLDE When for a foreign land her beloved once won her, that ungracious man Isolde had to follow faithfully and graciously. Now you are returning to your own estates to show me your inheritance; how could I flee that land that spans the whole world? Wherever Tristan's home may be, there let Isolde go, there let her follow him in grace and faith, so now show Isolde the way!

How softly and gently he smiles, how sweetly his eyes open - can you see, my friends, do you not see it? How he glows ever brighter, raising himself high amidst the stars? Do you not see it? How his heart swells with courage, gushing full and majestic in his breast? How in tender bliss sweet breath gently wafts from his lips -Friends! Look! Do you not feel and see it? Do I alone hear this melody so wondrously and gently sounding from within him, in bliss lamenting, all-expressing, gently reconciling, piercing me, soaring aloft, its sweet echoes resounding about me? Are they gentle aerial waves ringing out clearly, surging around me? Are they billows of blissful fragrance? As they seethe and roar about me, shall I breathe, shall I give ear? Shall I drink of them, plunge beneath them? Breathe my life away in sweet scents? In the heaving swell, in the resounding echoes, in the universal stream of the world-breath - to drown, to founder - unconscious - utmost rapture!

I don't know how much to read into this, but the Sun is associated with Men while the Moon cherishes the memory of the Elves. The Sun was always more powerful--Morgoth attacked the Moon but didn't dare attack the Sun. And when both celestial bodies are in the sky during the say, the Sun outshines the Moon. Though either can eclipse the other, which is why I'm not sure how far to go with the comparison.

The Elves knew where they were going, yes, but I wonder if the thought of man going somewhere "better" was on their minds. Yes, exactly what I was wondering...and is that enough to grieve them, without any confirmation that Men go 'somewhere better' to cause them grief? No one knew, but there is a concept of heaven as being one with God. We as humans cannot comprehend such a thing so we whittle it down to things that we know - with loved ones, clouds, harps. But if you let your imagination expand on the concept of "one with..." then the possibilities are endless. Do men in ME die and that's it or do they go to that place that even Elves don't know about, to be *part of* Eru? A possibility! And that might qualify I suppose to the Elves as 'better'. However, with it being Unknown, your second part of the idea...

OR

Is this whole immortality vs mortality thing a psychological experiment to see how the different races make their choices? ...seems to be still in play for us, at readers, isn't it?

And more to the point, when do we get to meet the dolphins and the mice? Particularly the dolphins. I don't trust the mice...!!!

And does this have anything to do with my laundry, where everything fades, turning me into Curious the Grey?

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The act of creating something from something else changes the original but only if you're in a box and someone is watching...

And more to the point, when do we get to meet the dolphins and the mice?

It seems to me that the elves regret their immortality because of their memories. They are cursed by remembering the perfection of the beginning. As time continued they saw what was once beautiful degrade and disappear - what seems like yesterday to them was many hundreds of years ago to the other races. And as such the other races forget the elves' deeds and labors from ages past. The elves fought the long defeat, if you will. No matter what they did or tried evil always returns and all that they have done seems useless when compared to the present. Also the land itself changed- the perfection that they so loved was sullied and broken. Their strongholds were over run and their monuments obscured by the sands of time. Also many of their friends were killed in battle or sailed West and so they were left in ever dwindling numbers. Even if they were to befriend men (or hobbits or dwarves) they would outlive them and then the elves would be burdened with the sorrow of loosing more people that they loved. Sounds depressing right?

Now men on the other hand- Well they get to live a nice lifespan- not to short and not to long. Because of their mortality they live life to the fullest. They don't know any different so they just love and accept what they have calling it perfect even if it is not. They have no time to waste lamenting the passing of time or being depressed. Instead they go out have fun accomplish something ( or try anyway) and then they die. That's it. The end. I think I would be envious too if I were an elf.

And then these blessed men try to throw away their gift and try to be immortal. ( That's when the elves decide that men need a psychologist and avoid all further contact if possible.)

and nothing bad ever happened then the elves would have been pretty content On a more serious note I think that anyone who was immortal would end up feeling the same way. After all how could you be happy if everyone around you was dying and/or changing? I remember reading a book called Tuck Everlasting in middle school - it was about a family that became immortal after drinking from a magical spring and had to live like that for ever- ( random train of thought I know) but they had the same problem as the elves and began to act the same way.

In Valinor there was no death, and everyone was immortal. I think that the motivation for thier rebellion was the change in the status quo, men, evil, and the changes that all of these entailed. They were happy until they learned of what was changing, outside of Valinor, and when Melkor was brought in. If the Valar had kept Melkor out of Valinor, would that have changed anything? Now that would be a little like state controlled news, but what are your thoughts??

Sometimes I wonder : Did JRRT have PTSD (or shell shock, as it was called then)? There are a number of characters in books written around the 1930s (DL Sayers' Peter Wimsey comes to mind) having experienced WWI (and the Somme in particular) who seem to have this feeling of futility. By the time Hitler was rising to power, a thinking man like JRRT and his thinking buddies would have been watching and discussing what was to come. I know he did not write the story as allegory, as a cautionary tale or any other direct correlation, but it had to have been on his mind. When I read about the elves, it makes me feel like Tolkien saw mankind in the same way - doomed to beat ourselves into our own dust. WWI was called "the war to end all wars" and barely a generation later we had another even larger war. Was this his sadness, watching the world repeat his generation's mistakes, because he thought it very well might be inevitable? Mankind was not getting better, learning from our errors, we were continuing to be our own worst enemy.

Tolkien told us that it was 'fated' for the Firstborn to teach the Secondborn and then to 'fade'. The problem that presents itself here is this: "Were ALL the Elves supposed to be teachers, or only some?" I guess the difference in outcomes here, and the question of Who would be the teachers, depends on the Summoning happening or not. Watch as we indulge in some alternate timeline ideas (oops, wrong franchise?) Anyway...

What if the Moriquendi were the only teachers that were supposed to be there? What differences in teaching lore and wisdom might there be? Would the Moriquendi have become ennobled, on their own, or have drawn men down into secrecy? Assuming that Melkor was going to cause more trouble, would the Valar have interfered earlier? Would Men just hide, or would they have a more Third Age like conflict? Without the Summoning they would have all been relative Moriquendi - and the distinction would not exist. The outcome of the Valar tending Arda more closely, and Morgoth not obtaining as much control as he did is a viable notion I think. The Sun and Moon would perhaps exist sooner, and not be sullied light: if the Valar were concerned with lighting Arda earlier, as a step against Morgoth, and BEFORE the Trees were killed: the Sun and Moon as the Unsullied, virginal light of the Two Trees? The Elves certainly would not have had the same longing to go West...but then, Turgon would not long to build Gondolin either. So perhaps a smoother, less dramatic transition between Elves and Men. Yet would the great lines of Men, descended from Earendil, and the uniting of the blood of Maiar and Elves and Men happen? I don't think so. So a flatness perhaps to the Song...something it seems Eru is not fond of.

Instead the tale has its highs and lows (as he says, the noble cannot exist without the simple and mean, or it has no meaning itself.) Failings of faith, failings of wisdom along the way allow for the highest points of Men and Elves to be born and rise high.

Then you have the Noldo in Valinor that never left. How would they greet the hard working Moriquendi? Would they be estranged, the Noldo having been puffed up an proud, like Roman Plebians? Would there be questions like "Why did WE have to do ALL the work? Could this have started another conflict? Hmmm...my hope id that the Noldor who stayed would hopefully not be proud in that way...but I think they may have looked at the world in such a different way to the returning Noldor that there might indeed be a culture gap there. Maybe a wide one. Not sure if it would lead to conflict...but perhaps those kindreds would never really reunite?
Too many questions.....Never *too* many. But that last one is quite the puzzler. I've never considered it before either.

In my thinking, I would backtrack that the only place that the Elves don't fade is in Valinor, so that's where they're ultimately meant to be, Ulmo's reservations about the great migration aside.

What if there were no Melkor in Valinor? Feanor might have been discontent, but he wouldn't have been so stoked up, nor had his father killed and the Silmarils stolen, and the Trees would still be alive, so there wouldn't have been the Elven dismay that if the Valar can't protect their orchard, they can't do much else and why not leave them behind?

I'd conclude that no Melkor in Valinor would mean the Noldor never left. The other Moriquendi would still fade, of course. But now you have me wondering if someone is born in Valinor, do they fade more or less rapidly if they go to Middle-earth? Did the Noldor in ME fade more quickly than the Sindar, which was why a larger percentage of their population went to Valinor, or were they just homesick and it had nothing to do with fading?

Though Brethil may be dismissive of important ideas about laundry (let her lead the discussion, and she becomes an intellectual Attila the Hun, alas), I want to know if all that faded laundry is what made faded denim jeans so chic. If it looks good on Elves, it must look good on mortals, right?

They were shorter too No that I have anything against short people - I am one. But didn't the elves get shorter in successive generations? If so then even physically they started out "less" than the previous generation. Makes one wonder about the strength of the gene Elves' gene pool once it was exposed to the less rarefied air of Middle Earth.

On the thought of preservation, Valinor was created to preserve all the things that the Valar cherished from Morgoth's perversion and destruction. Is it, in a sense, an embalmed country? Is that why Elves go there for peace of mind, because like the Three Rings, it halts time and preserves their spirits?

Great thoughts, Rem!

Nice poser about Elves being stabbed by Morgul-knives, and great conclusion using Legolas as proof that they wouldn't work. I have to agree. With Celebrian being tortured by Orcs to the point that she could only find solace in Valinor, I think that an Elf stabbed by a Morgul-blade would probably be weakened enough that they'd have to head to Hospital Aman also, though they wouldn't be at risk of wraithing. It's hard to see an Elf turning out as a wraith. But I suppose the Ulairi said the same things about Men, and Frodo certainly didn't see it coming for him as a hobbit.

I like your point about the biological clock ticking for Elves. I get that feeling also, that they know inside that their era is over. They seem to predict it often enough, so it's not a surprise to them.

To step outside of the Tolkien world, isn't it disappointing that he made immortality rather depressing? Not that he gets the last word on the subject, but most people in the real world would think, "Eternal youth and beauty? Sign me up!" I guess I'd still like to think that would be a good thing and not have a dark side to it.

I suppose that the quality of an immortal life is subject to many things:

The Setting: I can imagine us regretting being immortal if we lived in a horrible place, or one similar to our world or ME. All the loss that would build up would make us very Elvishly sad.

"Yes you will live forever, but in this small box. Mwhahah!!"

The Company: Of course you wouldn't want to be alone!!! Mental stability is not in the terms of service. So you'd want a good couple of people to hang out with for eternity.

Melkor totally spoiled the Ainur's immortality. Where is quality control when you need it

The Entertainment: What would we DO!!! Even the best of us get bored, so what is the outlook for an immortal.

"Want to jump over Niagra again!!" "Nah, we did that 10.000.000 times already."

The Job: You didn't think this was going to be free, or easy? What would we do to get, or keep our immortality?

"Yes, in return for such life you will hold up the earth in it's orbit. Poor Atlas just looks SO heartbroken, he really needs a few millenia vacation to get his spirits back up."

Pseudo-serious thoughts.....(You cracked me up with this Rem!)

I would think that the fea of Elves were tied to Arda, and because they live in both worlds, they would be doubly bound. What happens when a man's fea get into the Elvish spirit world? Perhaps this was never designed to happen, so there are no rules. An exception to the physics/philosophy of Arda? Could Sauron exploit this and use his own sub-creative powers to fill in this blank? A negative sub-creation intended for evil?

But I've never thought of it as a stagnant place before. Now I wonder. And it's always been a little creepy to me that the Two Trees are left standing, almost like a monument to Melkor's malice. It seems they should have been given a decent burial or something. Instead they're embalmed in public view, in a sense.

Does everything fade in Valinor too? No more Trees, no more Silmarils, and nothing to rival them in fresh creativity. Do they watch the same reruns on TV all day?

Gimme a transformation and gimme immortality, and I'll show you how to have a good time.

Gandalf was worried that Frodo/Bilbo might have had the One, but he seemed disturbed that they had any kind of magic ring, that it wasn't meant for mortals. *That* is a very good point. Especially if the rather uniting way that they might work is a foray into or dealing with the spirit world (the secondary circle of Arda?) where, embarrassingly, they just can't keep up. I think of the Silmaril that Beren & Lu won, quite righteously, which nevertheless killed them off prematurely because it too was too strong for mortals, or inappropriate for them.
That has me back to feeling like Men are kids who should let adults play with fire and avoid it themselves. Quite a bit of wisdom there CG. (*puts club down*)

Yes, normally I think that the fea of Men would leave Arda, and maybe even Ea, but I think that the Nine rings redirected, or anchored the feas/ fearim/, feaoth(sp?) whatever the plural is(!), to Arda. So Sauron cannot just go shopping at fea-mart, but he needs another way to 'net' the fea. I think that the Nine when worn after death, accomplished this, and perhaps sealed the fate of the Ulari. They cannot take off their rings anymore, and are trapped with the power that is coeval with Sauron.

I wonder if they were freed after Sauron's fall? Did they go to 'the fate of Men', and were they punished? I think that they were pardoned, Eru being pretty laid back IMO, in not requiring them to DO anything to get to their ultimate fate. No church on Sunday, door knocking, dragon-slaying, or anything to qualify, just die.

Elves were meant to fade, but Men, Dwarves, Halflings, etc... were not. The 'fading' of the Elves was natural, and all other 'fading' unnatural

**Spiritually, they became obsessed with preservation. Perhaps they had an internal clock that told them subconsciously, that their time in ME was almost through. Te decay of 'magic' could also factor here as a dwindling of spirit. ** I think their 'magic' being a function of their spirit: to create beauty and art without domination. And thus yes: with the fading of spirit, I think that the 'magic' wanes. In relation to that, I wanted to mention a possible link between the mandate of subcreation (c'mon, you KNEW I was gonna have to say it eventually!!??) and the 'fate' of fading.

_______________________
(Ioreth) As with Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden, the quest for knowledge, the use of the music, led them away from the purity of the original creation. From the time they chose to experiment, they started to dim what was given to them. Eru is perfection, all other things must be less and the farther away they move with their own creations from the original, the dimmer it gets. A built in part of Eru's plan?

With their mandate and their native desire to subcreate and change, that in itself changes original creation. A sense of inexorability in the Song - in that sense, the 'Fate' notion of the tales? (Brethil)

There is no such thing as a natural death: nothing that happens to man is ever natural, since his presence calls the whole world into question. All men must die; but for every man his death is an accident. And even if he know it and consents to it, an unjustifiable violation

We must learn to die, and to die in the fullest sense of the word. The fear of the end is the source of all the lovelessness; and this fear is generated only when love begins to wane. How came it that this love, the highest blessedness to all things living, was so far lost sight of by the human race that at last it came to this: all that mankind did, ordered, and established, was conceived only in fear of the end! My poem sets this forth

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I am going to bring up 2 quotes today. The first is one that Tolkien quoted himself in an interview in 1968 after commenting that all stories are about death and the inevitability of death. It is from Simone de Beauvoir

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Tolkien then states "You may agree with these words or not, but those are the - are the keyspring of 'The Lord of the Ring' "

That's a fantastic find. It ties up with something he said in 1958 as well...but firstThe second quote is from that other guy. You know the one I like to quote all the time: Gotcha!

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So is this tie in that the elves natural fading is the slow loss of love that comes from an eternity away from the source of love? Do they fade because they become obsessed with art that imitates this love as they can never return to it in death? Is the unnatural fading of men that they can not learn to accept their mortality: "The fear of the end is the source of all lovelessness"? Is this why it is important that Aragron chooses the time of his death after a much prolonged life? Is it why Arwen chooses mortality?

I think that you have (once again Terazed) tied the philosophy of what underlies the tales with the intent of the author; and also with what we can walk away from these stories as both readers and mortals.

Here is the quote I mentioned above, that ties the ideas together : JRRT writes in 1958: "Though it is only in reading the work myself (with criticisms in mind) that I become aware of the dominance of the theme of Death. (Not that there is any original 'message' in that: most of human art & thought is similarly preoccupied.) But certainly Death is not the enemy! I said, or meant to say, that the 'message' was the hideous peril of confusing true 'immortality' with limitless serial longevity. Freedom from Time, and clinging to Time. The confusion is the work of the Enemy, and one of the chief causes of human disaster. Compare the death of Aragorn with a Ringwraith. The Elves call 'death' the Gift of God (to Men). Their temptation is different: towards a faint melancholy, burdened with Memory, leading to an attempt to halt Time." (#208, 1958)

So is the inverse here, as *That Guy* ( )suggests in the quote above and JRRT does as well, that the way to true love for and joy of life is to let go of the marking of Time? The fear of Time and the passing of existence is what coverts life (mortal or Immortal) into mere marking of days and yearning for ghosts of what was?

I agree with your point about Aragorn choosing his death: and it reflects the 'unfallen man' per JRRT. So there is the best in humanity, the unfallen example to follow: having lived fully, not marking time until the end nor making a cultus of the dead and gone, Aragorn embraces his end and. The absolute expression of Faith? Whereas the Ringwraiths - fallen - represent the ultimate failure of faith?

So in Elves, expressing their Eru-given skills in subcreation and subsequent change their statement of 'faith'? And the attempt to arrest change the (*cough* the Three) their failure - in defying Fate (if we define that as the inevitable change that will occur with Elves behaving as Elves should) and Eru's plan?

Arwen - we had discussed how she might have sought the shelter of the nuomenal-state of post War Lorien in order to be in touch with Aragorn (outside of Time). From the authorial sense, maybe Arwen's choice for mortality is that letting go of Time, and of 'limitless serial longevity.' Which sounds like what she would feel had she stayed Immortal but lost Aragorn.

These connections are simply fantastic.

A good name for a chain that provides only the best feas, harvested to order.
"Yes we only sell the finest feas."
"I need quite a few. Are you sure that you will have enough?"
"How many?"
"Nine, and before you ask this has NOTHING to do with some missing property that you may have heard about!"
'Oh, don't worry. Our business is ours, and yours is their's *pointing at feas*'
"OK, and can I possibly have the darkest, most twisted, morbidly sick, and tortured souls that you have in stock... just because....can I get a discount?"
"*starting to get a bit weirded out* Suuuure.....but those do come with a bit of a disclaimer attached, and a no return policy.'
"Oh, I don't care...how often do those actually matter? By any chance, can I get them in black?"
Men do have an ambiguous fate, so it is really hard to say for sure. I'm wondering if they actually meet other people/ feel remorse.

"I am Inigo Ministar, you killed my father, prepare to die Ringwraith!!"
"Dude, we're already dead!!"

No that I have anything against short people - I am one. But didn't the elves get shorter in successive generations? If so then even physically they started out "less" than the previous generation. Makes one wonder about the strength of the gene Elves' gene pool once it was exposed to the less rarefied air of Middle Earth.

Here is the quote I mentioned above, that ties the ideas together : JRRT writes in 1958: "Though it is only in reading the work myself (with criticisms in mind) that I become aware of the dominance of the theme of Death. (Not that there is any original 'message' in that: most of human art & thought is similarly preoccupied.) But certainly Death is not the enemy! I said, or meant to say, that the 'message' was the hideous peril of confusing true 'immortality' with limitless serial longevity. Freedom from Time, and clinging to Time. The confusion is the work of the Enemy, and one of the chief causes of human disaster. Compare the death of Aragorn with a Ringwraith. The Elves call 'death' the Gift of God (to Men). Their temptation is different: towards a faint melancholy, burdened with Memory, leading to an attempt to halt Time." (#208, 1958)

So is the inverse here, as *That Guy* ( Wink )suggests in the quote above and JRRT does as well, that the way to true love for and joy of life is to let go of the marking of Time? The fear of Time and the passing of existence is what coverts life (mortal or Immortal) into mere marking of days and yearning for ghosts of what was?

I agree with your point about Aragorn choosing his death: and it reflects the 'unfallen man' per JRRT. So there is the best in humanity, the unfallen example to follow: having lived fully, not marking time until the end nor making a cultus of the dead and gone, Aragorn embraces his end and. The absolute expression of Faith? Whereas the Ringwraiths - fallen - represent the ultimate failure of faith?

So in Elves, expressing their Eru-given skills in subcreation and subsequent change their statement of 'faith'? And the attempt to arrest change the (*cough* the Three) their failure - in defying Fate (if we define that as the inevitable change that will occur with Elves behaving as Elves should) and Eru's plan?

Arwen - we had discussed how she might have sought the shelter of the nuomenal-state of post War Lorien in order to be in touch with Aragorn (outside of Time). From the authorial sense, maybe Arwen's choice for mortality is that letting go of Time, and of 'limitless serial longevity.' Which sounds like what she would feel had she stayed Immortal but lost Aragorn.

Okay, I've de-lurked in the RR just to say that's the best joke I've seen in a long time. I'm giggling as I type. I'd love to share that with a large class of undergrads -- and watch their blank looks. Thanks for that!

There is a thread running through all of them that, to me, says not to worry so much about death that you put off living. Since Man has a finite lifespan, they know how much time they have and know "how much they can fit in." I thought of it as a Bucket List. The Elves would have to have had a limitless bucket list to keep them occupied and relevant in their own lives. They fill it with art - a kind of childlike imitation of The Music - and exist in a kind of holding pattern.

Oooh, that's something else, isn't it. The journey where you get somewhere and the the journey where the destination is not really defined. Man's journey ends in death; the Elves end in... well, sorta fading... and kinda that's the end but... well... not really, then they can go back West but it's just not the same! The Elves up wandering through life and some of them become lost because they are not really headed... anywhere.

Love is the ultimate check mark on a bucket list because it sticks with you even after you make the check. It also gives the added benefit of a companion along the way in this journey called life and frees an individual from thinking of self only. Power by nature is not shared, but love is shared. It is the "other" path that leads more often to acceptance of the life given. (As a Pippen-ish aside: I've always wondered what Elrond would have been like if Celbrian had lived.)

Power gives purpose to a life that has no purpose. And I agree, it gives those who will not accept the end point something to which to cling. In doing so, Man becomes more elven-like, they add things to their bucket list (Or put unattainable things on that list) so they can say "not done yet!" because they will not accept their fate. The "gift" is shunned - the ultimate smack in the face of Eru - and they "fall." Their endpoint is taken away from them and they fade into nothing, lacking even the prospect of that last trip to the West.

My 'important' question relates to this idea: I wonder here if *this* is the reason JRRT felt that Sauron was the closest thing to Absolute Evil in his tales - more so than Morgoth? Destroying the Gift, using Fear to dominate and pervert the Gift? Is this the act which damns him more than Morgoth (whose creation of the Orcs was his own personal 'worst')?

In # 183 he says about Sauron: "In my story I do not deal in Absolute Evil. I do not think there I such a thing, since that is Zero. I do not think at any rate and 'rational being' is wholly evil. Satan fell. In my myth Morgoth fell before Creation of the physical world. In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to wholly evil as possible. He had gone the way of all tyrants: beginning well, at least on the level that while desiring to order all things according to his own wisdom he still first considered the (economic) well-being of other inhabitants of the Earth. But he went further than human tyrants in pride and the lust for domination, being in origin an immortal (angelic) spirit* [Of the same kind as Gandalf and Saruman, but of a far higher order.] In The Lord of the Rings the conflict is not basically about 'freedom', though that is naturally involved. It is about God, and His sole right to divine honor...Sauron desired to be a God-King, and was held to be this by his servants."


Is the creating of the One Ring and its influence over the Nine, the perversion of the Gift and the transmuting of himself into the god-like (utterly rejecting his inner divinity, and his intimate knowledge of it) power of controlling that Gift the rationale for this statement perhaps?

Then you have the Noldo in Valinor that never left. How would they greet the hard working Moriquendi? Would they be estranged, the Noldo having been puffed up an proud, like Roman Plebians? Would there be questions like "Why did WE have to do ALL the work? Could this have started another conflict?

Too many questions.....

All excellent points. And to someone as strong and devoted in his faith as JRRT was, the slaying of God and its effect on humanity would be quite morally repugnant (as well as the loss of the noumenal concept and that spiritual impact). Thus if we can equate Sauron with this sort of ideology his classification as closest to Absolute Evil does feel quite right. This is another great parallel.

If I remember correctly, I *thought* Nietzsche thought that the drive of faith toward 'truth' is what would reveal religion to be an intellectual construct.

And I can recall reading that JRRT felt that the current living Church was like a living tree, should be enjoyed as such. That digging into the past for the primitive (now absorbed) seed OR trying to 'bring up to date' faith in a non-organic way could both damage faith. Perhaps that is his acknowledgement of the dangers of nihilism - the complete intellectualization of faith?