Jun 6 2013, 11:20am
so many interesting points
so many interesting points, elaen. : )
Do you think that Eol was more ruled by the physical or the spiritual when he first "desired" Aredhel? To me, it suggests that the physical was just as strong as the spiritual- more a desire to possess her, body & soul. Later this "love" becomes twisted on both sides- if questioned, Eol would probably have declared that he still loved her, even after she had left, and possibly even believed that on one level. But deeper down, he probably recognised the ambivalence and hatred also, even if he would not acknowledge it.
very much in agreement here, elaen. in posting that section from morgoth's ring, i got a chance to reaquaint myself with it.... and it seems that tolkien does provide for the possibility of elves being ruled by their bodies in matters of romance and love, even if these are ultra rare occasions. i'll have to take another look, because i'm also remembering other passages that seem to contradict each other a bit.
yes, in this context, aredhel and eol make more sense now. i still think that the two had enough personality traits in common that the idea of a partnership/marriage seemed like a wonderful idea. add into the mix that both were perhaps letting their hroar run way with them (which may be said literally for aredhel, perhaps causing or contributing to her wanderlust), and the extra dash of spice from letter #43 (very thoughtfully provided by squire), and we've got --- cliched but true -- a recipe for disaster.
i also agree with your take on eol, that love and lust were mixed up together, 'tho i don't think, had aredhel survived and eol had gone back to his forge, he would have admitted to anyone, not even himself (i get the feeling that he was not capable of such fine-tuned introspection), that he still loved her. and, by that point, in my estimation, whatever good love he might have had had been eaten away by his hatred for the noldor, and whatever lust was left had been consumed by that hatred, and transformed into anger and a desire to dominate.
The letter that Squire quotes is very interesting as an insight into how Tolkien saw this sort of relationship. I agree with him to a certain extent about women believing they can "reform" a bad man- but I feel it is somewhat of a generalisation. Certainly there is a group of women who end up, sometimes repeatedly, in abusive relationships because they feel they can reform the partner and that he does love them really etc etc, but for sure not all women, or even the majority. Let's say, there seems to be a sizeable minority who get into that situation.
yes, tolkien was making a generalization; i don't get the sense he was saying that this was true for all women, just that it was a vulnerability for many, and a common enough pattern.
The quotes from MR illustrates TOlkien's idealist view of love, sex and marriage very well. IMO the marital customs and law he applies to the elves are very much how he would like things to be in the real world- relationships based purely on love and a meeting of minds, not lust, no sex before marriage, marriage being lifelong and beyond in both the physical and spiritual sense etc.I suspect this is a reflection of his relationship with Edith and maybe he felt that if all the world were so blessed, evil might be defeated- or at least people might be happier!
yes : ). i very much get this same sense from his writings about the customs of the eldar and their inherent nature -- that what he envisions for the eldar is what he sees as the ideal state for women and men. i love the part (which i may add as a quote later) that he is firm in that male eldar and female eldar are +equal+. and i really get the sense from his stories that he believes it to be so... i just wish more females popped up in his stories, and they got more ink.
Ooh, and totally off topic- I seem to have galloped into Rohan overnight!! Still in the dust from your heels though Maciliel- you seem to have been to Fangorn, Edoras, fought a battle at Helms Deep and ridden to Gondor whilst I have been dossing in Lothlorien. I blame that Galadriel, messing with the time- and she didn't even give me a nice shiny dagger when I left!!
i'm going to borrow brethil's presentation and thoroughly wish you a resounding, thunderous welcome into rohan!!!!!! : )
i love having galloped into gondor, but i will share that it was very fitting to have me galloping around in rohan, and i loved seeing my avatar above the word "rohan" -- it just seemed to fit.
but you are there now, and i have not long left it, and i have let all there know to be prepared for your arrival, so you will find many to welcome you and much to divert you. spend some time on the open plains, take a trek to edoras and drink some mead at the golden hall, visit helm's deep, where dwarves are right now helping to rebuild the hornberg -- drink the sweet air as it comes to you on breezes that flow both cool and crisp, and flow also warm and soft.
(and, yes, galadriel can be very distracting. very easy to lose time with her -- no shiny dagger?!!! make sure you aren't mistaken -- check your pocketses. : ) )
( --- btw -- what does "dossing" mean?)
many cheers : )
aka. fili orc-enshield
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 6 2013, 11:23am)