The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Lilly on Tauriel



Arannir
Valinor


May 25 2013, 12:02pm


Views: 3426
Lilly on Tauriel

http://www.totalfilm.com/...-desolation-of-smaug

Did anyone read the whole interview?


Btw: They need to start promoting this movie more...



A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.

(This post was edited by Arannir on May 25 2013, 12:02pm)


Estel78
Tol Eressea

May 25 2013, 1:02pm


Views: 1504
I hope Lilly gets a better fashion consultant for the TDOS premiere. ;) //

 


geordie
Tol Eressea

May 25 2013, 4:39pm


Views: 1440
I disagree -

I think this film is getting just the right amount of promotion - in fact I reckon they ought to tone it down a bit.
Wink


Arannir
Valinor


May 25 2013, 4:45pm


Views: 1357
Non-promotion...

... would be more fitting, I guess ;)



A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


moonrunes
The Shire


May 25 2013, 5:06pm


Views: 1400
Tauriel

The character of Tauriel is reminding me of the elf Arya from the Inheritance cycle


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


May 25 2013, 5:16pm


Views: 1376
Character

Just reading what little there is on that page, I get the impression that Tauriel is Boyens' Mary Sue.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on May 25 2013, 5:17pm)


geordie
Tol Eressea

May 25 2013, 5:25pm


Views: 1351
Hmm.. I thought that Galadriel was Boyen's mary Sue

- but I see what you mean. BTW - I love the way Lilly comes up with all those ages, of Tauriel and Legolas etc. Seems very confident of her information.
.


(This post was edited by geordie on May 25 2013, 5:26pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 25 2013, 6:14pm


Views: 1312
An age for Legolas was given in the film guide.

It is not-canonical as far as Tolkien's timeline is concerned, but if I remember right, Legolas was given the birthyear of TA 87.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Arannir
Valinor


May 25 2013, 6:19pm


Views: 1289
Stuff like that...

... is what actors and directors do for background on characters even if that background is not given in the source material. They also do it for Shakespeare characters, for example.

And particularly for Tauriel's character it is important, since as it was mentioned in the Sneak Peek, she is supposed to be a representativs of the "normal" Woodelves with a less noble ancestry than Thranduil and Legolas.



A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


jimmyfenn
Rohan


May 25 2013, 8:21pm


Views: 1252
killer elf?

the idea of a elf as a ruthless killer, i dont think fits in with what elves stand for, by her very nature she would be the complete opposite, no?

sorry to be a pain, what orcs are these? is it a screen grab from lotr?

http://lotr.wikia.com/...217_1235487333_n.jpg

"You Tolkien to me?!" - Hobbit de Niro

(This post was edited by jimmyfenn on May 25 2013, 8:28pm)


burgahobbit
Rohan


May 25 2013, 8:30pm


Views: 1172
I thought the same

Hopefully it just means that she hates orcs with a bitter passion land fights them like the rest of the elves. I mean, isn't Legolas a pretty ruthless killer too? How much worse could it be?


DanielLB
Immortal


May 25 2013, 8:35pm


Views: 1172
The picture of the Orcs

Is from one of The Hobbit film guides. It's not from LOTR.

It's also important to remember that not all Elves are as glorious as Arwen and Elrond - Tolkien wrote Elves with all different personalities - including wicked, mad and bad Elves. Take Feanor and his sons, for instance - Curufin tried to kill Luthien and Feanor killed his own kin (even Galadriel was a rebel)! Additionally, Maeglin and Eol both did horrible deeds - helping Melkor destroy Gondolin and killing his wife while trying to kill his son, respectively.

By and large, Elves are a benevolent race. But Elves can be evil, despite being pre-disposed toward good (and this is explored outside of LOTR and TH). And they have all always been very good at fighting the enemy regardless of being "good" or "bad".

Smile


(This post was edited by DanielLB on May 25 2013, 8:43pm)


GiantMushroomBear
Bree

May 25 2013, 8:36pm


Views: 1136
No


In Reply To
the idea of a elf as a ruthless killer, i dont think fits in with what elves stand for, by her very nature she would be the complete opposite, no?

sorry to be a pain, what orcs are these? is it a screen grab from lotr?

http://lotr.wikia.com/...217_1235487333_n.jpg


This is from DOS, from a while ago


Arannir
Valinor


May 25 2013, 9:37pm


Views: 1086
opposite?

Not at all when I look into the Sil and the history of the Elves in general. Especially when it goes against Orcs.



A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 25 2013, 9:45pm


Views: 1156
Taking into account Lilly's comments...

Given EL's comment about Tauriel being a "ruthless killer", if I were writing her up as a player character for the The One Ring role-playing game, I might assign her the Calling of Slayer.


Quote

You or your family have suffered a terrible loss at another's hands. You have become an adventurer take your revenge on whoever wronged you, or maybe just to leave behind a life that you are not able to enjoy any more. Yours is a difficult path to tread, as what you have been through makes it hard to give your trust to anybody.



I wonder how much background story we will get for Tauriel?

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 25 2013, 9:46pm)


jimmyfenn
Rohan


May 25 2013, 9:52pm


Views: 1073
trie

true, but to base an elfs character on the fact she kills things, seems wrong to me.

"You Tolkien to me?!" - Hobbit de Niro


Ffnir
Rohan


May 25 2013, 10:03pm


Views: 1065
Oh, you changed your picture ?

I was completely in love with the elf on your former avatar !
I'll miss her... but my opinion was kinda biased concerning your posts because of her, so I guess it's better that way


jimmyfenn
Rohan


May 25 2013, 10:11pm


Views: 1032
ha

its odd how profile pictures can make you see posters differently!

i thought id better update it for the next film, but ill probably change it, maybe a bit too agressive!

scary profile pictures makes me think the posters are scary too lol

"You Tolkien to me?!" - Hobbit de Niro


dik-dik
Lorien


May 25 2013, 10:21pm


Views: 1104
Meh.


In Reply To
Did anyone read the whole interview?


Honestly, I didn't. I saw the headline about a 'ruthless killer' on the first page, which made me lose interest instantly.
To be frank, with every new word I hear about her, Tauriel makes less and less sense to me as a character, and more and more resembles a character from a highly unoriginal fanfic story. I must second Jimmyfenn, I fail to see anything Elvish about her, and find it sad that it seems to be negative traits that define her character so far. So far she sounds to me like a mentally unstable assassin from a PC game, hardly seasoned or wise enough to be chieftain material.
I wonder if she's meant to be a likeable character at all.

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


(This post was edited by dik-dik on May 25 2013, 10:25pm)


Arannir
Valinor


May 25 2013, 10:25pm


Views: 1021
definately.

I cannot get over Lusitanos change from Asterix to Jesus :))))



A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


May 25 2013, 10:56pm


Views: 1097
Legolas was described as a "murderous elf"

it was in Vanity Fair (the Viggo ROTK cover) or perhaps in one of Bloom issues of GQ... I thought it strange at the time, but also an apt description.

In any event, killing seems ruthless by nature. The best warriors however are known for their willingness to extend mercy -- their killing is efficient more so than motivated by hatred -- and their gentleness outside of battle.


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


May 25 2013, 11:08pm


Views: 998
Meh

i was having a Jesus moment, so ...Time to go Messiah Wink

Before Asterix i had a flemish painting.

But i resemble more Jesus than the smartest of the gauls.

Jimmyfen : what the...LOL...is that ..does that head belong to Tauriel?? Sly Shocked

Azog Kills Tauriel...Bolg Kills his Azog, because daddy is mean to him...Bolg kills Radagast...Pirate


As to the Tauriel matter...does this mean she wont be the gaurd at the elven prison, who gets drunk on wine and falls asleep?

Hum...maybe she will get drunk with Legolas and both will fall asleep...Tongue

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!

(This post was edited by Lusitano on May 25 2013, 11:11pm)


Yngwulff
Gondor


May 26 2013, 3:03am


Views: 909
drunk


Quote
Hum...maybe she will get drunk with Legolas and both will fall asleep...Tongue



Or get their dreak on and be to busy to notice an escape .... LOL


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


Slim
Rivendell


May 26 2013, 8:29am


Views: 874
I don't know

I'm not liking all the Tauriel news that I'm seeing, but I can't help but think that we may all be jumping to conclusions here...

PJ's done a decent job with everything so far, so I don't think Tauriel will be that bad.


DwellerInDale
Rohan


May 26 2013, 9:00am


Views: 918
Here's the whole interview

The entire interview doesn't have much more than the excerpt, so I hope no one bought the magazine just to read the interview.

Link


I really would like people to stop jumping to conclusions about Tauriel...wait for the finished film.

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.



Semper Fi
Rohan

May 26 2013, 10:26am


Views: 669
I think she`s half joking half isn`t using the right words

I`ve noticed lots of (valid) negativity surrounding this character`s inclusion in the movies so it`s possible she`s under pressure to make the character sound like what she thinks fans would like to see - someone who only fights, fights, fights and doesn`t do emotional stuff. Which, in return, makes her sound extremly boring and undistinguishable from- gasp - Orcs who only fight, fight, fight and exibit no personality outside of ruthlessness.

Now, speaking of "ruthless killer" remark, she`s either exaggerating for reasons above or doesn`t understand the meaning. Ruthless killer would be anyone who kills non-combatants so unless the character is unleashing a killing spree on women and children of Dale, killing armed forces such as Orcs, Thorin party, etc would not be considered ruthless killing. It`s a military job, not attrocity. But the use of word "ruthless" and old comment that "Tauriel isn`t someone you want to meet in the dark alley" sound like either the character is the Cobra Kai of Elven Forces (beats up or kills innocent bystanders because she gets carried away or just won`t contorl herself) or the actress doesn`t know what she`s talking about. No dark alley attacker ambushes armed and dangerous men but unsuspecting defensless people. I highly doubt that this is the kind of character they wrote into movies so I`d say that she`s (nervously) joking to win over fans but jokes fall flat.


Semper Fi
Rohan

May 26 2013, 11:17am


Views: 674
Arya the leather-clad vegan Elf

Very few characters outside Inheritance series, Cassy Clare opus and the final Twilight book approach the absurdity of Arya. She every bad fanfiction re-write of canon characters (Arwen, Princess Leia,etc) rolled in one.


In Reply To
The character of Tauriel is reminding me of the elf Arya from the Inheritance cycle



Semper Fi
Rohan

May 26 2013, 11:26am


Views: 625
I don`t think that "murderous" is correct word

Murder means killing that wasn`t done in self defence or defence of others. Combat killing of armed enemies isn`t a murder and Orcs were established in LOTR as a warrior race bred for purpose of fighting and killing only. They enjoyed inflicing pain and suffering and enjoyed it inflicted on them or didn`t feel any. I forgot details. But bottom line is, they were never a humanized enemy in the books or movies. We never saw women and children or Orcs who did something good. They were never "soldiers like us". So since they were always the attackers, killing of their soldiers wouldn`t be considered murderous and ruthless.

Both Vanity Fair and Lilly exaggerate here a lot for they think those OTT words and phrases hype the characters as ultimate basasses.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 26 2013, 2:34pm


Views: 566
Ruthless doesn't equate to chaotic


In Reply To
I`ve noticed lots of (valid) negativity surrounding this character`s inclusion in the movies so it`s possible she`s under pressure to make the character sound like what she thinks fans would like to see - someone who only fights, fights, fights and doesn`t do emotional stuff. Which, in return, makes her sound extremly boring and undistinguishable from- gasp - Orcs who only fight, fight, fight and exibit no personality outside of ruthlessness.

Now, speaking of "ruthless killer" remark, she`s either exaggerating for reasons above or doesn`t understand the meaning. Ruthless killer would be anyone who kills non-combatants so unless the character is unleashing a killing spree on women and children of Dale, killing armed forces such as Orcs, Thorin party, etc would not be considered ruthless killing. It`s a military job, not attrocity. But the use of word "ruthless" and old comment that "Tauriel isn`t someone you want to meet in the dark alley" sound like either the character is the Cobra Kai of Elven Forces (beats up or kills innocent bystanders because she gets carried away or just won`t contorl herself) or the actress doesn`t know what she`s talking about. No dark alley attacker ambushes armed and dangerous men but unsuspecting defensless people. I highly doubt that this is the kind of character they wrote into movies so I`d say that she`s (nervously) joking to win over fans but jokes fall flat.



Ruthless just means that Tauriel kills without mercy or compassion; it does not mean that she slaughters anything in sight that isn't an Elf. It certainly does not mean that she butchers non-combatants (although she might if she were ordered to do so, or if they were perceived as inherently evil, such as Orc-women and Goblin-young). The description could prove to be apt.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Semper Fi
Rohan

May 26 2013, 2:47pm


Views: 541
But Orcs aren`t meant to illict compassion and mercy for they give none

Therefore there is no reason for her or anyone else to show it. And I`m sure that she won`t kill any Party member. She may try to show no mercy and compassion to them in the first movie and get stopped (by Legolas or another character) but unless there`s a villain twist with the character I fully expect her to become friends and protector of Bilbo and dwarves in the third movie.

So overemphasizing the "killer' part may well hide a character development that comes later.


In Reply To

In Reply To
I`ve noticed lots of (valid) negativity surrounding this character`s inclusion in the movies so it`s possible she`s under pressure to make the character sound like what she thinks fans would like to see - someone who only fights, fights, fights and doesn`t do emotional stuff. Which, in return, makes her sound extremly boring and undistinguishable from- gasp - Orcs who only fight, fight, fight and exibit no personality outside of ruthlessness.

Now, speaking of "ruthless killer" remark, she`s either exaggerating for reasons above or doesn`t understand the meaning. Ruthless killer would be anyone who kills non-combatants so unless the character is unleashing a killing spree on women and children of Dale, killing armed forces such as Orcs, Thorin party, etc would not be considered ruthless killing. It`s a military job, not attrocity. But the use of word "ruthless" and old comment that "Tauriel isn`t someone you want to meet in the dark alley" sound like either the character is the Cobra Kai of Elven Forces (beats up or kills innocent bystanders because she gets carried away or just won`t contorl herself) or the actress doesn`t know what she`s talking about. No dark alley attacker ambushes armed and dangerous men but unsuspecting defensless people. I highly doubt that this is the kind of character they wrote into movies so I`d say that she`s (nervously) joking to win over fans but jokes fall flat.



Ruthless just means that Tauriel kills without mercy or compassion; it does not mean that she slaughters anything in sight that isn't an Elf. It certainly does not mean that she butchers non-combatants (although she might if she were ordered to do so, or if they were perceived as inherently evil, such as Orc-women and Goblin-young). The description could prove to be apt.



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 26 2013, 2:53pm


Views: 544
I understand your concern...

I just think that your previous post was a bit too alarmist. Ruthless does not mean the same thing as random or indiscriminate. I agree that Peter Jackson is known for his excesses, so I do share some of your concerns.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Semper Fi
Rohan

May 26 2013, 3:09pm


Views: 542
No, I actually said that her comment was alarmist

because she used "hype" word that means indiscriminate and random killing which for sure Jackson wouldn`t apply to any Elf character. Much like Vanity Fair calling Legolas a "murderous" Elf was entirely CrazyPirateFrown.

They (VF, Lilly) tried to hype those characters (Legolas, Tauriel) as great action heroes but inappropriate adjectives backfired by unwittingly giving them alarm and eyebrow-raising spin. Laugh Clumsy marketing to say the least but it`s undertandable in a way. They are trying to appeal to general audience that prefers carnage to subtlety unlike real fans who are more invested in character depth over body count. It doesn`t mean there won`t be any good character moments (Legolas had quite a plenty with Gimli and Aragorn in LOTR, so it wasn`t all killer Elf) or that Tauriel won`t show a gentle, likeable side. Just that they think, or are more likely instructed by Warner Bros PR machine, to hype only action and badass side of character(s) because that supposedly sells.


(This post was edited by Semper Fi on May 26 2013, 3:12pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 26 2013, 3:16pm


Views: 536
Lilly did not bring up killing non-combatants...

That was you. I repeat, ruthless does not mean what you claim it means. That is why I stated that your comment was alarmist. Tauriel can be both ruthless and disciplined. She doesn't have to be a berserker.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Glorfindela
Valinor


May 26 2013, 3:26pm


Views: 577
Well, I must say this made-up character is sounding truly hideous

The more I hear about it, the more I feel this character should not be in the film at all even in a cameo role.

What are they trying to aim for another film to appeal to the fabulously intelligent Marvel/Transformer market? I appreciate films need to make money, but I do believe DoS could easily be a very successful film without this addition to the story. It needs to develop the existing and necessary characters from the book, not create some sideline story with some entirely imagined 'elf' that was never in Tolkien's world. Mad


Semper Fi
Rohan

May 26 2013, 3:29pm


Views: 535
I never said she brought it up

I just said that ruthless is too heavy a word that certianly doesn`t apply to what we will see in the movies. How can anyone be ruthless to Orcs? Please,explain that to me and also show me an example from any Tolkien book in which Orcs take PoW, treat them nicely, let them go (and not in order to follow them) so that they should receive an equal tretament.

Ruhtless means inability to show compassion and mercy where required. This is why I mentioned non-combatants for they are most obivous and easy to understand example. Since Elves deal almost excusively with Orc armies, and those armies neither are capable or showing mercy and compassion or ask it for themselves, I wouldn`t call Elven defense and pre-emptive strikes against such enemy ruthless. Orcs simply are not meant to be sympathtic and relatable enemy. So, whether Lilly, or rather Warner Bros marketing department, likes it or not, that robs her character of ruthlessness inflicted on humanized enemy who deserves compassion and mercy in certain situations.

Denying dwarves of Erebor a sancuary can be classified as ruthless in part though Thranduil had legit reason to do so (such as protecting his realm from Smaug`s retribution).

My point is that choice of her words make the character sound worse than she actually will be. I don`t believe for a second that Tauriel is going to be merciless and uncompassionate to characters who require it, such as Bilbo and dwarves, to a point of killing some of them. She may issue threats but she won`t execute them. Notice that she says the character still doesn`t have the wisdom. So that implies she`ll aquire some over the course of two movies. And I strongly suspect that compassion for dwarves will be a huge part of that wisdom.


(This post was edited by Semper Fi on May 26 2013, 3:34pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 26 2013, 3:51pm


Views: 554
My guess is that Tauriel has a character arc...

Tauriel will probably start out a hardened warrior who has little compassion for non-Elves. Over the course of the second and third movies we will see her ruthlessness compromised by her wisdom as she realizes that Bilbo, Thorin and his companions don't have to be enemies.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Semper Fi
Rohan

May 26 2013, 4:02pm


Views: 543
That`s what I`m thinking

Wasn`t in mentioned in one of the interviews that Tauriel would question or disagree with Thranduil`s isolationist politics and that she never ventured outside of Mirkwood? So it could be that her dislike of non-Elves stems from being isolated from other cultures save Orc attackers and brainwashed into thinking that all non-Elves or at least dwarves were just like Orcs. So the Party could be a cultural shock to her that makes her question both what she believed in previously and the wisdom of the Elven King.

IMO, that would be interesting so I really don`t know why they are emphasizing generic super-killer warrior aspect of the character in their marketing. That doesn`t make her interesting or stand apart from many such clones male and female. It also isn`t a better selling point to general public and it`s certainly turning off fans of Tolkien universe.


jimmyfenn
Rohan


May 26 2013, 4:17pm


Views: 518
ha

so shes a racist murderer?

SARCASM ALERT!

"You Tolkien to me?!" - Hobbit de Niro

(This post was edited by jimmyfenn on May 26 2013, 4:18pm)


moonrunes
The Shire


May 26 2013, 4:25pm


Views: 516
I know

Yeah, I know, and thats why I'm worried about the
character Tauriel Unsure


geordie
Tol Eressea

May 26 2013, 4:53pm


Views: 487
I agree//

 


Elenorflower
Gondor


May 26 2013, 5:20pm


Views: 555
looks like Tauriel

is going to be yet another kickass babe doing a Xena. Snow White, Gretel, the list is endless of recent films with the same boring predictable kickass babe in tight leather. yawn.


bungobaggins
Lorien


May 26 2013, 5:26pm


Views: 479
Hear, hear!

When I watched the DOS sneak peek I tried to have an open mind about the character. Then they showed a brief glimpse of Evangeline Lilly acting (the scene where she is interrogating an orc). The dialogue and delivery made me cringe. However, I am a little sympathetic because if the dialogue is sub-par, then there's not a whole lot an actor can do with it.

I went to the midnight premiere of AUJ, but seeing the direction they're going to be taking the story, I might wait to see what the reviews say before throwing money at it.

"You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!" - Gandalf


Glorfindela
Valinor


May 26 2013, 5:47pm


Views: 468
Sinking feeling about this

The problem is that I simply cannot fathom why the writers feel the need to add a non-Tolkien 'fighting' female to the film something that is completely at odds with Tolkien's world. They tried to do a similar thing with 'Arwen' in LOTR, but luckily did not go ahead with this move. Now they will be trying to force it on us again in The Hobbit.

It is sheer idiocy to think the story can be 'brought up to date' this way when all such a crass insertion is going to do is alienate a large part of the potential market for the film. It's the sort of box-ticking exercise a la Snow White, etc., as mentioned above, that could take me completely out of the film and I'm someone who can tolerate a lot of changes to the original material.

There's also a danger that with this type of sideline, the character development of key protagonists which I am very keen to see is going to suffer. Mad


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


May 26 2013, 6:09pm


Views: 450
Fathomable


In Reply To
The problem is that I simply cannot fathom why the writers feel the need to add a non-Tolkien 'fighting' female to the film something that is completely at odds with Tolkien's world.


It's absolutely fathomable. There's been a LOT of discussion about why. I'll repeat keywords from other discussions for you with which to search these forums: comic-con, Tauriel, feminine energy, Boyens, sexism, Mary Sue, coven, demographics, agenda.

That said, just because it is a female character means nothing. If she fits into the story as an existing character from the book, but neither gender nor name is specified by Tolkien, she's a perfectly valid insert into the story. But if she is a tool of the writers for their (or her) own agenda and/or shoehorned in for demographics, that would be bad indeed.


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


May 26 2013, 6:18pm


Views: 449
Conclusions


In Reply To
I'm not liking all the Tauriel news that I'm seeing, but I can't help but think that we may all be jumping to conclusions here...


We are absolutely jumping to conclusions within our speculation. There will be equal debate in retrospect about who was right and wrong with their conclusions because everyone has their own appreciation and point of view.

The shame of it is that the amnesiatic quality of forum discussion does not hold people accountable and responsible for their opinions. Few will remember or admit they were wrong and it is unfortunately considered bad form to say "I was right." It is even worse in this touchy-feely, morally relative, PC trend we have today to say others were wrong if, in fact, they were. When all opinions are held as equally valid, informed or not, when no one is wrong, there's nothing to learn or improve.

The big lesson the writers may not have learned from LOTR criticism is that when they diverge from Tolkien, they do a poorer job of it.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on May 26 2013, 6:23pm)


geordie
Tol Eressea

May 26 2013, 6:37pm


Views: 416
Well said.


In Reply To

In Reply To

The shame of it is that the amnesiatic quality of forum discussion does not hold people accountable and responsible for their opinions. Few will remember or admit they were wrong and it is unfortunately considered bad form to say "I was right." It is even worse in this touchy-feely, morally relative, PC trend we have today to say others were wrong if, in fact, they were. When all opinions are held as equally valid, informed or not, when no one is wrong, there's nothing to learn or improve.

The big lesson the writers may not have learned from LOTR criticism is that when they diverge from Tolkien, they do a poorer job of it.



dormouse
Half-elven


May 26 2013, 7:05pm


Views: 429
I hope your guess is wrong....

Though based on all the various scraps of information that have come out so far I can see where you're coming from. But it isn't a story line I'd welcome or want to see. I've no objection in principle to them adding characters, fleshing out existing characters, even changing the gender of existing characters if there's a good reason and if it serves the story. But an invented character with his or her own story? No, even for me that would be a step too far. And specifically in this case, it would be creating a problem by pre-empting the story Tolkien did write about an elf who learned through experience that dwarves didn't have to be enemies. Legolas. What sort of a muddle will they end up with if an elf Legolas knows makes that discovery in front of him? In any case, the 'hey look, girls can fight' stuff is getting a bit old hat.

But it may not be what they're thinking. And if it is, a lot can happen between now and release date. They do have a history of changing their minds.

So for now I'm just going to carry on hoping that whoever Tauriel is, whatever she ends up doing, it will blend back into the real story. I won't judge anything that I haven't seen - and that so far doesn't even exist.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


May 26 2013, 7:07pm


Views: 390
Tend to agree

Murderous implies that the killing went beyond what was necessary to affect victory in battle. But there was a coolness about it, to wit counting kills. However "ruthless' seems an exaggeration.

Still, I think it is inaccurate to call the Elves, especially the warrior class, peaceful... peace-making perhaps.


Dwarvenfury
Lorien

May 26 2013, 7:10pm


Views: 465
Tauriel and Legolas

This could degenerate into a fiasco.


I think tauriel could be an intriguing addition, but what exactly will they
have her do? Without knowing a ton, this character would seem to fit
a karate movie.


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


May 26 2013, 8:44pm


Views: 381
I believe that it was Leoglas having disagreement with his father...//

I remember an interview/article where it was mentioned that Legolas would have to decide whether to support his father or choose a different path (something like that?)


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


dik-dik
Lorien


May 26 2013, 9:15pm


Views: 456
Re:


In Reply To
Few will remember or admit they were wrong and it is unfortunately considered bad form to say "I was right."


Believe me, I would be quite happy to admit I was wrong about my initial impressions of Tauriel, and that she wasn't as bad as I'd thought.

But I see nothing wrong with jumping to conclusions, if that is what you call people saying "I fear she'll become...", "It sounds like they are writing her as..." and such.

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


Semper Fi
Rohan

May 26 2013, 9:18pm


Views: 481
Now that you mentioned a karate movie

The interview sounds like Tauriel runs "mercy`s for the weak" school from Karate Kid movies. Laugh

I`m positive that she`ll turn likeable but the character marketing that over-emphasizes "ruthless killer" and "dark alley" kind of a stalker/attacker personality to exclusion of anything else isn`t working any magic on fans judging by reactions. I really don`t understand why they think that she`ll be accepted easier if market as a one-dimensional harda$$ akin to Lurtz (only female version) than someone who is likeable. Being a fighter and being likeable aren`t mutually exclusive. Tolkien world is full of characters who are likeable fighters.

Just how do you make a character named Daughter of Woods (or Forrest) sound like a cartoonish villain? The name itself speaks of deep connection to nature and love of its creatures, in short someone who`s humane. So she would be a humane warrior. Yet none of interviews related to the character revelead anything but attempts to scare the audience. Is there a twist coming our way where she`s going to slay Thorin, Kili and Fili? Can`t imagine such scenario but only that would justify ruthless killer talk, not slaying Azog&co.


In Reply To

Without knowing a ton, this character would seem to fit
a karate movie.



(This post was edited by Semper Fi on May 26 2013, 9:22pm)


dik-dik
Lorien


May 26 2013, 9:37pm


Views: 466
Concerning the 'feminine energy' that you mention...

... I wonder if the addition of a girl fighter (which, as some already said, is rather unoriginal these days) may actually alienate some females from the film. I have a feeling it will be the case for me. I must admit that I am feeling more than a bit miffed that a female character who is considered important enough to have a name and her own storyline, needs to be one who is a good fighter (Galadriel will also be present and active at Dol Guldur, I presume). It implies to me that a woman wouldn't be interesting enough to be included if she wasn't fiery and physically strong, which doesn't make me happy.
It seems to me as if moving away from the old stereotype of damsels in distress and trophy wives, has now reached the opposite extreme.

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


dormouse
Half-elven


May 26 2013, 10:09pm


Views: 448
Yes. The reason I'm still hopeful....

... that there may be some redeeming feature in all this which we just don't know about yet is that it was this very team of writers who wanted to make Arwen into a girl warrior and came down on the side of 'women don't need to take up weapons to be strong' which was a much more original and interesting take on the thing and, to my mind, much more appropriate to Tolkien.

Philippa Boyens talks at some length about this on the EE documentaries - it's not that long ago; surely they can't have forgotten? *crosses fingers*


Glorfindela
Valinor


May 26 2013, 10:15pm


Views: 490
Why, also, is this made-up character getting so much publicity?

There are so many interesting characters that actually DO belong in the story, and we are hearing virtually nothing from them (and seeing very little, apart from the bits we saw in the sneak peak, which of course also had to include this new character).

It is very alarming to think that the filmmakers may be considering giving her any major role in the film. I really, really hope that will not be the case.

This film is called 'The Hobbit', for goodness sake!

As a female, I totally agree with this statement : 'It seems to me as if moving away from the old stereotype of damsels in distress and trophy wives, has now reached the opposite extreme.'


Lio
Lorien


May 27 2013, 12:06am


Views: 402
Thanks for posting the full version!

So apparently Tauriel is something of a hothead? I hope they don't overdo this part of her personality, it has a bit of potential for scenery chewing if not done right.

Interesting that the actress describes herself as a "die-hard Tolkien fan". Surely Tauriel is in good hands? Wink

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 27 2013, 12:42am


Views: 425
I'm afraid that's exactly what it sounds like :-((

Triumph of the marketing dept over good storytelling.








JWPlatt
Grey Havens


May 27 2013, 1:13am


Views: 430
The Meaning

Ok, so this is more than a few women who feel similarly. Are we collectively saying it's more for the (perhaps young) male demographic who are excited to to see girls fighting than for females who don't - all under the guise of abandoning the stereotype damsel? That would be counterproductive to the stated intention, or attraction, of feminine energy.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on May 27 2013, 1:17am)


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


May 27 2013, 1:54am


Views: 396
I have to second both of you

Tauriel sounds like a Mary-Sue character from a terrible fanfiction. I know the films haven't come out yet, but I can't help but give a judgement based on what I've heard so far about Tauriel. She doesn't sound very likeable to me either.


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


May 27 2013, 2:04am


Views: 395
She reminds me of Arya also

And all those books are examples of Mary-Sues. Cassy Clare even plagiarizes. Crazy


totoro
Lorien

May 27 2013, 3:58am


Views: 408
I don't get it

Arwen was a bad-ass without swinging a sword. So was Galadriel. There was Eowyn who came across as tough, but not as tough as the big boys. Now we have Tauriel, one of a handful of females, none of whom was really all that great at swordcraft compared to the great heroes of the story, who looks like she might be able to pull of a Gina Carano (who, BTW, would be able to hand you your butt on a platter if you stepped in the ring with her). It is perfectly acceptable to have a superhuman (i.e., elf) who happens to be female, be able to kick some butt. Does Gina Carano make you fear for your masculinity or femininity? Jeesh.


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


May 27 2013, 7:01am


Views: 375
Wrong Interpretation

It's not that she is a fighting female. If you've read these posts, you should know that. It is a question of the writer's and studio's motivation, and that this character is completely made up - artificially inserted for questionable reasons and effect on the original story. The type has become cliche. Sexist fear is your straw man.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on May 27 2013, 7:02am)


Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 27 2013, 7:02am


Views: 365
No...

...she makes me fear for the integrity of the story that's ostensibly being told here, which has nothing to do with butt-kicking females or, in fact, butt-kicking beings of any description (not to mention females of any description).

Virtue in this story is of another stripe. It has to do with integrity, loyalty, and courage, commitment. And the introduction of clichée characters of any description weakens it.








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on May 27 2013, 7:03am)


Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 27 2013, 7:11am


Views: 374
What do women want?

(famously, Freud asked).

In this case, we have an excellent, strong, story that doesn't happen to have any females in it. Many females (as well as males) love it, because it's a good story, well-told, with interesting characters.

I, at least, resent a bunch of marketing types trying to manipulate this story to "satisfy demographics" of any kind. Insertion of fighting females for marketing reasons that have nothing to do with the story being told weakens the story and makes all fans of the story resentful. This tale doesn't need any stereotypes, whether they're "damsels" or kick-butt warrior females. It needs to make good use of the characters it has.








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on May 27 2013, 7:11am)


lurtz2010
Rohan

May 27 2013, 7:19am


Views: 371
So would it be better if all the Mirkwood elves were just male background characters?

Except for Thranduill, Legolas and two drunks like in the book. Doesn't it make sense to add a female elf character? We need to know more about their culture etc. What would you expect them to do with the elves in the movie?


(This post was edited by lurtz2010 on May 27 2013, 7:20am)


Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 27 2013, 7:28am


Views: 367
I don't care whether they're male or female...

...so long as they have some sort of integrity and perform the actions required to move the story along. Is she one of the drunks? That would be ok. Is she just another elf in the background? That's ok, too. But inventing a character based on a contemporary stereotype (e.g. kick-butt female) just to satisfy some marketing twerp's notion of demographic expectations destroys the credibility and integrity of the film.








Yngwulff
Gondor


May 27 2013, 7:38am


Views: 344
PJ's heroine

PJ or Fran I dunno, maybe he/she both wanted it. Maybe they didnt knuckle under to the pressure from the studio for a female heroine (show some backbone maybe if they did submit to the corporate heads)? ... I dunno.
Guillermo del Toro refused to compromise on his HP Lovecraft film regarding PG13 vs R rating and it was scrubbed ... he went on to make Pacific Rim instead.

LOTR HAD a heroine in Eowyn and didn't need to morph Arwen into one. During the seige of Dol Guldur as a subplot in the Hobbit, Galadriel could be that heroine, and it would be rightly so and more in line with canon vs some made up non canonical heroine.

But why change the story to suit corporate heads? Put on your big boy Hobbit pants and plant your foots firmly and tell them to begone!!

On a side note ...
I know this is fantasy, but it just irks the heck out of me when they have these 102 pound soaking wet female heroines who kick the crap out of these 6'4" trained killers all day with a tae kwon do kick to the head like in Alias. I am 6'4' and 300 pounds and have to date never met a woman who could whip my tail or take me out with one kick or punch ... just saying ...

Now if you've ever seen the movie The Kingdom (excellent movie!!! BTW) with Jamie Foxx, Chris Cooper, and Jenneifer Gardner there's a fight scene near the end where Jennifer Gardners character gets in a knock down drag out fight with this gigantic Saudi terrorist ... she kills they guy with slight help from one of the guys on her team, but not without getting slammed around and banged up fairly roughly. Realistic and I am 110% OK with that.

Just had to get that off my chest ... sorry


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


dormouse
Half-elven


May 27 2013, 8:28am


Views: 333
It makes absolute sense to add female elves.....

... and not just one. More than one in the background would be fine by me - we've already seen some in Rivendell.

The sticking point is this 'we need to know more about their culture.' I'm fine with that too - providing the elven culture shown in the film is developed from Tolkien's writing and in harmony with it. And some of the concerns/ theories about what Tauriel might be would, if true, be as alien to Middle Earth as an imported character from Power Rangers or Star Trek.

But having said that, I'm still relaxed about it. The film isn't made yet. Decisions can be changed and in any case, we don't know that the ideas being suggested are decisions that Peter Jackson and company have made. I can't believe that a team of writers who do know Tolkien's books and have worked with them for years now would choose to do something so out of keeping. I have more faith in the writing team than a lot of people here do and I'll wait and see what role Tauriel really does play before I decide. I can't judge something I haven't seen.


Yngwulff
Gondor


May 27 2013, 8:37am


Views: 318
Yes

Unless the elves are hermaphrodites or can reproduce by fission or they all took off with the Entwives ... they kinda gotta be there ....


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


Semper Fi
Rohan

May 27 2013, 10:43am


Views: 304
None of those characters nor Carano are psycho killers

Tauriel brouhaha doesn`t stem from being the token tough chick but from being advertised as a killer machine without personality. The actress spoke about the character in two occasions and in both cases emphasized only how absolutely ruthless killer and dark alley predatorish the character was. And if you read comments here and in other places you`ll see that majority of fans don`t think that going berserk in a killing spree is an empowerment to any gender. Simply put, from little informaiton we have the character sounds absolutely unlikable and deranged. Now some of us think that this is just a bad marketing pandering to adolsecent boys, who don`t care for characterisation but only to see a leather-clad hottie in action, and that the character will turn out differently in the movies. I`m in this group. And some of us think this is it, that Tauriel is indeed this repulsive maniac. I`m holding out hope this group is wrong but it`s really strange that someone in The Hobbit marketing department thinks it`s a good idea to make a contorversial character come off as Jason Voorhees and such desxcription would warm up fans to her.


Semper Fi
Rohan

May 27 2013, 10:47am


Views: 310
It makes sense to add a female, it doesn`t make sense to add a psychotic killer one

Or maybe she isn`t psychcotic at all but these interviews certianly make her sound like a good companion to Fredddie, Jason, Michael, Leatherface, Jigsaw. Laugh


Semper Fi
Rohan

May 27 2013, 10:54am


Views: 333
What girls want from a fighter heroine - going by boxoffice

They want Hunger Game (survivalist is thrusted into dealy games she didn`t want to aprticipate in, kills only when she must and without nay joy, is compassionate and caring under tough exterior), Harry Potter (Hermione is just as good fighter as she is a book reader, smart, loyal friend, compassionate, brave,etc), LOTR (all 3 women in the movies are brave and vulnerable at the same time, their strength doesn`t come only from wielding weapons or magic although they can do that too), TDKR (Catwoman is clever and a fighter and also has conscience and chamr and vulnerability), The Avengers (same goes for Natasha).

They don`t want Hanna (genetically engineered super-assassin killer machine teen) or Kick A$$ (pre-teen girl is raised to become super-assassin killer machine).


(This post was edited by Semper Fi on May 27 2013, 11:03am)


Glorfindela
Valinor


May 27 2013, 12:15pm


Views: 296
Agree totally with this.


In Reply To
...so long as they have some sort of integrity and perform the actions required to move the story along. Is she one of the drunks? That would be ok. Is she just another elf in the background? That's ok, too. But inventing a character based on a contemporary stereotype (e.g. kick-butt female) just to satisfy some marketing twerp's notion of demographic expectations destroys the credibility and integrity of the film.



Elenorflower
Gondor


May 27 2013, 1:07pm


Views: 284
the only 'fighting' female

in LOTR is Eowyn, but as a Shieldmaiden she is part of the warrior culture of Rohan and would have been brought up knowing how to wield a sword. However she is a complex fascinating character, and also is subject to the traditional role of nurse maid,future bride, mother and chtelaine of the castle. she is fascinating because of that double sided role in her society, neither all warrior or all woman but caught between the two, which must have been frustrating.
Now Tauriel seems like such a flat and modern pc construction in comparison. she seems as if she is just a deadly killer, just a warrior, the type we have seen a million times before whether they set the film in ancient Persia or Eragonlandia, or in fairytale legend, its the same cookie cutter Xena babe. Tolkien wrote a wonderful fighting female and he remembered to give her womanly traits as well as making her fearless in battle.


(This post was edited by Elenorflower on May 27 2013, 1:09pm)


Elenorflower
Gondor


May 27 2013, 1:23pm


Views: 294
I agree with this

also I would say that the marketing twerps think that an 'old fashioned' heroine who floats around in nice dresses is going to put girls/women off, because women should, according to them, be seen seen as active and as cool as the boys in a fight. I personally think this is twaddle. I actually like the old fashioned females I see in films, their strength comes from courage and loyalty not by splitting lips and kicking people in the head. Thats why Arwen and Galadriel are so well loved by girls/women, they are dainty velvet clad ladies but have inner strength, Arwens love sustained Aragorn Galadriels power sustaining the fertility of a Whole Kingdom. this is the kind of women other women respond to, and it doesnt hurt if they have lovely floaty frocks too.


dik-dik
Lorien


May 27 2013, 1:32pm


Views: 515
You raise an excellent point here, Elizabeth.


In Reply To
Virtue in this story is of another stripe. It has to do with integrity, loyalty, and courage, commitment. And the introduction of clichée characters of any description weakens it.


For me, the virtue that LotR and TH highlight the most is compassion. Ruthlessness is its direct opposite, and coming from one who is not an orc but supposedly one of a high and noble people, it undermines JRRT's message for me.

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 27 2013, 2:14pm


Views: 502
I'll be happy to admit to being wrong if Tauriel is a well-realized and interesting character


In Reply To
The shame of it is that the amnesiatic quality of forum discussion does not hold people accountable and responsible for their opinions. Few will remember or admit they were wrong and it is unfortunately considered bad form to say "I was right." It is even worse in this touchy-feely, morally relative, PC trend we have today to say others were wrong if, in fact, they were. When all opinions are held as equally valid, informed or not, when no one is wrong, there's nothing to learn or improve.



For that matter, I'll be happy to be right so long as there is a damned good reason for Tauriel to be a warrior-maiden. I'm thinking something like her being injured in an Orc attack, possibly being rendered barren by poisoned weapons (losing an unborn child?). She may have even lost her mate to the same attack.

I almost think that this would be too clichd, then I remember that Peter Jackson is directing.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Glorfindela
Valinor


May 27 2013, 3:03pm


Views: 516
Well, yes I agree with that, too

I love the 'old-fashioned' heroines in some of the BBC dramas, for instance (North and South and Pride and Prejudice spring to mind).

I also like Buffy the Vampire Slayer an original character in an original series, and for me by far the best of the 'slayer-type' females. However, such a character has no place in J. R. R. Tolkien's world.

I'm also not sure the marketing twerps are necessarily to blame, or PJ himself for that matter.

The fact is that as far as the other characters in the films are concerned, there was always a bouncing-off point, i.e. Tolkien's work (for which PJ has always professed so much respect). Although there are differences between the characters in the books and films, there is at least some resemblance between them, with which viewers can identify.

However, this 'Tauriel' creature is an entirely new character, not written into the books by the professor, and she is bound to be alien to the world of Middle-Earth because the script writers will not be able to equal or better Tolkien, or capture the tone of his characterisations. I do sense some arrogance on someone's part in thinking that they can somehow better the story by the introduction of a new character. There is a reason why J. R. R. Tolkien's books have stood the test of time, despite the lack of ridiculous females toting machine-guns and the like.

I trust that, if this character really has to appear, her role will be very small, otherwise she will be a real turn-off for many viewers. And they should stop promoting the woman.


In Reply To
also I would say that the marketing twerps think that an 'old fashioned' heroine who floats around in nice dresses is going to put girls/women off, because women should, according to them, be seen seen as active and as cool as the boys in a fight. I personally think this is twaddle. I actually like the old fashioned females I see in films, their strength comes from courage and loyalty not by splitting lips and kicking people in the head. Thats why Arwen and Galadriel are so well loved by girls/women, they are dainty velvet clad ladies but have inner strength, Arwens love sustained Aragorn Galadriels power sustaining the fertility of a Whole Kingdom. this is the kind of women other women respond to, and it doesnt hurt if they have lovely floaty frocks too.



(This post was edited by Glorfindela on May 27 2013, 3:04pm)


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


May 27 2013, 3:56pm


Views: 493
Youre right

if old fashioned female characters were not popular with contemporary females, then why would such characters as Elizabeth Crawley or the Downtown Abbey female ensemble have such success?

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Elenorflower
Gondor


May 27 2013, 4:36pm


Views: 492
*I just had a horrible thought*

I wonder if some bright spark tries to modernize Pride and Prejudice and instead of Elizabeth Bennet bowling Darcy over with her wit and charm, she karate chops him in the family jewels and runs off to start a ladies boxing and cigar chewing club.


Semper Fi
Rohan

May 27 2013, 5:28pm


Views: 460
Already done in the book Pride and Prejudice and Zombies

Elizabeth Bennett is an axe-wielding zombie slayer. I`m not kidding:

http://en.wikipedia.org/...rejudice_and_Zombies

There`s also Sense and Sensibility and Sea Monsters:

http://en.wikipedia.org/...ity_and_Sea_Monsters

Both book are set in Austin time and use her characters...with a Buffy twist so to speak.

I know that movie rights to P&P&Z were purchased but I guess that boxoffice fiasco of Abrahan Lincoln the Vampire Hunter put the movie on hold. Scarlett JOhansson was courted to play Elizabeth.


Cirashala
Valinor


May 27 2013, 6:12pm


Views: 444
LOL!!!!!!!!

*very very nearly spews grape nuts all over my screen*

Bwahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!

I ADORE the BBC Pride and Prejudice! Verbally, she most definitely "kicked him in the chops!"

Sounds like a great project for Mel Brooks!

Half Elven Daughter of Celethian of the Woodland Realm


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


May 27 2013, 8:12pm


Views: 430
LOL

what a dire, dire, image...Wink


And of course, sha has to be a repressed homosexual as well ...

Obviously, there would be explosions. And 10 minutes long scenes of shooting and kicking bad men in the family jewels.

Female power!!
Laugh

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


totoro
Lorien

May 28 2013, 3:34am


Views: 410
Good points

However, these are probably the only concerns that made any sense to me re the dislike of Tauriel, and they would be equally applicable to a male elf. For example: Justin Timberlake was playing the badass elf Captain and was in interviews saying how he was ruthless and you don't want to meet him in a dark alley.

The concerns I hear are from men and women alike who are concerned that Tauriel is a chick. I am training my daughter to be able to wrestle and she is pretty tough. I don't want her to get pushed around by some jerk-off in high school. She is reasonably likely to be able to kick the crap out of a small minority of males, and can probably defend herself well enough to get away and get help if she needs to. I am perfectly fine with her perfecting her skills, should she choose, to be able to defeat a majority of males. She is not a "stereotype" or less of a woman (well, girl right now) because she can kick butt. She is a minority, of course.

Tauriel can also be that minority. If she is handled properly, I think it works just fine. Tolkein already established that some females are good fighters (e.g., Eowyn). He also established that elves are just a little better at just about everything than humans. I don't think they will present Eowyn as being able to take out her peers, like Legolas, but if she can beat a substantial majority of male elves, a large majority of humans, and perhaps even be one of the best shots around with the bow, that is not a big deal to me.

Just because it might be an attempt to appeal to teenage boys doesn't make in an automatic fail any more than the makers of Shrek tried to appeal to the parents to bring in more revenue for a kids' movie. If it works for both purposes, more power to them.


In Reply To
I love the 'old-fashioned' heroines in some of the BBC dramas, for instance (North and South and Pride and Prejudice spring to mind).

I also like Buffy the Vampire Slayer an original character in an original series, and for me by far the best of the 'slayer-type' females. However, such a character has no place in J. R. R. Tolkien's world.

I'm also not sure the marketing twerps are necessarily to blame, or PJ himself for that matter.

The fact is that as far as the other characters in the films are concerned, there was always a bouncing-off point, i.e. Tolkien's work (for which PJ has always professed so much respect). Although there are differences between the characters in the books and films, there is at least some resemblance between them, with which viewers can identify.

However, this 'Tauriel' creature is an entirely new character, not written into the books by the professor, and she is bound to be alien to the world of Middle-Earth because the script writers will not be able to equal or better Tolkien, or capture the tone of his characterisations. I do sense some arrogance on someone's part in thinking that they can somehow better the story by the introduction of a new character. There is a reason why J. R. R. Tolkien's books have stood the test of time, despite the lack of ridiculous females toting machine-guns and the like.

I trust that, if this character really has to appear, her role will be very small, otherwise she will be a real turn-off for many viewers. And they should stop promoting the woman.


In Reply To
also I would say that the marketing twerps think that an 'old fashioned' heroine who floats around in nice dresses is going to put girls/women off, because women should, according to them, be seen seen as active and as cool as the boys in a fight. I personally think this is twaddle. I actually like the old fashioned females I see in films, their strength comes from courage and loyalty not by splitting lips and kicking people in the head. Thats why Arwen and Galadriel are so well loved by girls/women, they are dainty velvet clad ladies but have inner strength, Arwens love sustained Aragorn Galadriels power sustaining the fertility of a Whole Kingdom. this is the kind of women other women respond to, and it doesnt hurt if they have lovely floaty frocks too.




Elenorflower
Gondor


May 28 2013, 1:35pm


Views: 358
fair enough

but I question the need for a 'deadly killer Elf', the Elves in the book were in the forest feasting and merry making, they were not flying through the air killing things. why make the film even more violent? why the need for yet more battle/fight scenes? dont we have enough already? its violent overkill imo, and Tauriel is just another cliche fighter. The Elves of Mirkwood were supposed to be more rustic and they liked to party, why not show them in a more peaceful light, more enchanting, The way they disappeared when the Dwarves approached the feast has remained in my imagination as being a very magical and strange thing, it will be terrible if they dont show this in the next film. Mirkwood is a silent and creepy place, full of stealthy and weird creatures that creep up on the dwarves and Bilbo, this atmosphere would be destroyed by a load of fighting Elves charging about Killing orcs and spiders. Bilbo and the Spiders is another iconic scene that would be destroyed by too much fighting, he only kills the spider out of sheer necessity, he is forced to do it, deadly killer Elves destroy this balance.


(This post was edited by Elenorflower on May 28 2013, 1:39pm)


Glorfindela
Valinor


May 28 2013, 3:06pm


Views: 353
I disagree

I certainly don't have any concerns about a character being a 'chick', and that is by no means the concern of most people. My concern and that of many others is that the filmmakers have taken it upon themselves to add a character that is not part of Tolkien's world. For the reasons I have given, it is simply inappropriate for them to try and do this. Unless the role of this character is very small, her addition to the story is likely to turn off many people, in my view.

The books have stood the test of time without such additions. They are unneeded in the film.


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 28 2013, 4:00pm


Views: 331
There were guards for the prisoners.

This character has been listed as a member of the prison guards, so he/she is part of the original story. I don't see a contradiction.


The Mitch King
Rohan


May 28 2013, 4:57pm


Views: 338
Tauriel will be fine

She will probably get a small role within the Mirkwood sequences. Whats the big deal? All elves have "killer" capabilities. Just because she described in an interview a particular quality she might have doesn't mean anything considering we haven't seen the movie yet and know nothing about mostly everything. Just more unnecessary speculative hate being thrown on an unknown character. Crazy


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


May 28 2013, 5:01pm


Views: 334
Role Size

She is is reported to have been on set much longer than is required for a "small role." Things learned along the way only increase the concern - not just one article.


Glorfindela
Valinor


May 28 2013, 5:24pm


Views: 319
Sure, if she's just a briefly featured prison guard, that's fine

However, that is all she should be not a major made-up character. There are so many interesting existing and new characters that DO actually belong in Tolkien's story in a major way and need to be developed. The insertion of a made-up character is unneeded and undesirable (for reasons already mentioned).


In Reply To
This character has been listed as a member of the prison guards, so he/she is part of the original story. I don't see a contradiction.



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 28 2013, 6:50pm


Views: 304
Merry-making Wood-elves...

Yes, the Mirkwood Elves love to feast and make-merry in the region of Northern Mirkwood that they control. However, it is because of the rest of the forest being tainted and filled with giant spiders, black squirrels and Orcs (and the occassional spies) that they do need to patrol the borders and be prepared to fight. One could make a good argument that this is what book-Legolas might have been doing (had Tolkien invented him at the time of The Hobbit) while his father was questioning Dwarves found within their borders.

I'm still hoping that Tauriel won't be a ridiculously over-the-top character and that she will be reasonably motivated to act as she does. I'm fine with her being a mostly original character (possibly loosely based on one in the book) as long as she doesn't take undue attention away from the main story and lead characters.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 28 2013, 7:08pm


Views: 303
Maybe she'll be back...

...for Bo5A. Plenty of opportunities for warrior Elves there. My hope is that we'll see her as prison guard and get to know her a bit in DoS, and then see her fighting in TaBA. That would be appropriate.








Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 28 2013, 7:18pm


Views: 299
This is about what I expect...


In Reply To
...for Bo5A. Plenty of opportunities for warrior Elves there. My hope is that we'll see her as prison guard and get to know her a bit in DoS, and then see her fighting in TaBA. That would be appropriate.



Tauriel will be introduced in Mirkwood. Then we'll get to know her better in Thranduil's palace. Finally we will see the conclusion of her character-arc in There and Back Again.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


May 28 2013, 7:50pm


Views: 291
I dont expect the

writers to hire a recognized actress like E Lilly for just a few background scenes with a very minor, supporting role...

I am expecting a significant push for a secondary character...perhaps with more scenes and screen time given to her than Oin, Gloin, Dwalin etc...

And thats what worries me...

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


dormouse
Half-elven


May 28 2013, 9:44pm


Views: 268
It's all a question of how it's done. isn't it....

... and that's what we don't know and can't guess.

They have pulled this sort of thing off very successfully before with the Rohirrim mother in Two Towers who sends her children off to Edoras with news of the burning of the Westfold and turns up again at Helm's Deep. She served a real purpose in the carrying the story forward, doesn't detract from it at all, and I haven't heard a single complaint about her, even though she was a complete invention.

I'm hoping they will achieve something similar with Tauriel.


Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 28 2013, 11:00pm


Views: 268
She'll do more than 'Morwen" I'm sure.

As others have observed, they wouldn't hire such a recognizable actress for only a few seconds' screen time. As I noted above, there are legitimate and interesting things for her to do. I'm just hoping we don't get a hokey, cliches "spunky girl" or love interest out of it.








Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 29 2013, 12:14am


Views: 238
Well, let's just hope that Peter Jackson has been paying attention...

Peter? On the whole, the fans do NOT want Tauriel as either a love interest or as a "Mary Sue" character. Otherwise, she's fine as long as her presence makes sense and she doesn't detract from the story as a whole.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


The Mitch King
Rohan


May 29 2013, 1:24am


Views: 240
Small relatively speaking


In Reply To
She is is reported to have been on set much longer than is required for a "small role." Things learned along the way only increase the concern - not just one article.


Once the company is out of Mirkwood she's done most likely pending the DG stuff(which is all about the Counsel most likely). PJ said the barrels were "relatively early" in the movie. She just isn't gunna get the screen and vocal time everyone is so worried about. Some fighting scenes and some scenes in Thranduil's halls then done. She can't possibly ruin the movie in any meaningful way. I don't even consider her a well known actor....she'll always be the chick from Lost to me Wink


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


May 29 2013, 2:55am


Views: 230
I agree with everything you said...

however I feel there have already been worse transgressions on the part of the filmmakers (what Jackson has so far done with the appendices material). For me personally, giving identities to one or two of the Mirkwood elves is fine, as long as it doesn't overshadow any aspect of the story-telling. From what I can recall, none of the Mirkwood elves are even named in the book (Thranduil is only referred to as the Elven-king), so I'm ok with Tauriel's inclusion, as long as she's used extremely sparingly. Tauriel can't be any worse than Azog...


Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


May 29 2013, 5:44am


Views: 211
Sorry, but I'm a complainer about it.

Not because she and her family were "a complete invention", but because I really didn't care for the acting or the dialogue. The idea was better than the execution, for me.

I've enjoyed all four movies so far, but honestly, a lot of the totally invented stuff makes me cringe. It's a quality issue with me. I just don't have all that much faith in the writing team, so, yeah, I'm a little concerned about Tauriel.

**********************************

NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011


dormouse
Half-elven


May 29 2013, 7:00am


Views: 348
Fair enough...

...and no need to be sorry! I just hadn't heard any negative comment about her before.


Starling
Half-elven


May 29 2013, 8:03am


Views: 351
In the dim reaches of my memory

there is a thought that the Morwen character was pregnant, and that when she clutches onto Eowyn in the caves at Helms Deep she is actually having a contraction, and Eowyn is probably going to have to be midwife along with everything else. In the process of editing the pregnancy storyline disappeared, but parts that were filmed remain, so it's all a bit messy really. Am I right or did I dream this?
And what doesn't help me is the actress Robbyn Malcolm - she very well known in NZ and that drags me out of the story every time.


Semper Fi
Rohan

May 29 2013, 10:43am


Views: 337
Childbirth? REALLY? No thanks!

Those scenes are always awful, drag forever, and everyone is extremly annoying because they are yelling "Push!" "I see the head!",etc. I don`t know why they even toyed with having such a scene but I`m glad that reason prevailed and they deleted it.


elaen32
Gondor


May 29 2013, 2:15pm


Views: 316
Sorry Starling, but you didn't dream it!

Unless we had the same dreamCrazy I also remember this- I think it must be on one of the commentaries- not one of the writing ones-possibly the cast- I cannot remember. They wanted to create even more tension between the women and children in the caves and the battle and so had Morwen go into labour and a terrified Eowyn (Witch King? No worries. Woman in labour- scaaary!) having to deal with it. I'm soooo glad that they dispensed with the idea, except for the little bit we see in the EE!

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 29 2013, 2:16pm


Views: 327
I don't think we'll see Tauriel at Dol Guldur


In Reply To
Once the company is out of Mirkwood she's done most likely pending the DG stuff(which is all about the Counsel most likely). PJ said the barrels were "relatively early" in the movie. She just isn't gunna get the screen and vocal time everyone is so worried about. Some fighting scenes and some scenes in Thranduil's halls then done. She can't possibly ruin the movie in any meaningful way. I don't even consider her a well known actor....she'll always be the chick from Lost to me Wink



I doubt now that Wood-elves will take part in the White Council's attack on Dol Gudur. I do think that Tauriel will be at the Battle of the Five Armies. There is where we are likely to see the culmination of her character-arc.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


dik-dik
Lorien


May 29 2013, 3:58pm


Views: 321
'character arc' - that phrase makes me uneasy.


In Reply To
I do think that Tauriel will be at the Battle of the Five Armies. There is where we are likely to see the culmination of her character-arc.


If Tauriel is important enough to have her own arc, then her role won't be as backgroundish as that of the other women. That makes me worried.

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 29 2013, 4:19pm


Views: 312
I don't think that Peter Jackson can help himself...


In Reply To
If Tauriel is important enough to have her own arc, then her role won't be as backgroundish as that of the other women. That makes me worried.



I think of Tauriel in terms of the characters Ben Hayes and Jimmy from Jackson's King Kong, the first mate on the Venture and the boy who looked up to him as a mentor.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


DwellerInDale
Rohan


May 29 2013, 4:31pm


Views: 317
Tauriel at Dol Guldur

If you believe she won't be at Dol Guldur, then you'll have to explain scenes like the attached photo, which looks a lot like DG from the grey stone steps and columns.

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.

Attachments: Tauriel_DolGuldur.jpg (15.0 KB)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 29 2013, 4:42pm


Views: 305
Dale?

To my eye, those could just as easily be part of the ruins of Dale.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


May 29 2013, 7:32pm


Views: 288
Yes there were guards

but in the book they guarded the prisoners in the cells and weren't trying to interrogating orcs for Thranduil, or chasing and killing spiders, or any of the other made up fan fiction that Lilly will surely be doing in the films. It would be one thing for her to be the captain of the guard get drunk pass out and get her keys taken by Bilbo, I could live with that. But writing her in to be doing a bunch of made up nonsense that doesn't make sense or doesn't fit with what Tolkien wrote is just lame and unnecessary. THAT is where the contradiction is, the extent and involvement of her role in the tale. which should be if anything a small one.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 29 2013, 9:08pm


Views: 275
Sorry, my friend...


In Reply To
but in the book they guarded the prisoners in the cells and weren't trying to interrogating orcs for Thranduil, or chasing and killing spiders, or any of the other made up fan fiction that Lilly will surely be doing in the films. It would be one thing for her to be the captain of the guard get drunk pass out and get her keys taken by Bilbo, I could live with that. But writing her in to be doing a bunch of made up nonsense that doesn't make sense or doesn't fit with what Tolkien wrote is just lame and unnecessary. THAT is where the contradiction is, the extent and involvement of her role in the tale. which should be if anything a small one.



I'm afraid that ship has sailed.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


May 29 2013, 10:45pm


Views: 263
Yeah I know it has sailed

but doesn't mean that it doesn't suck. Tongue

I really couldn't care less about Lilly or the made up character of Tauriel. I think she is going to be, as Lilly herself put it, "a black mark", in the world of Tolkien. The whole concept of the character from what we have heard so far screams foul and goes against the source material itself. Even the supposed names meaning screams a bunch of crap. "Daughter of Mirkwood"... I thought it was Greenwood to the elves. and since Jackson felt the need to have it turning bad IN the Hobbit timeline. I'm sure the name didn't just change overnight. Some people are just optimistic about her, some are being realistic about her and her involvement in something she doesn't belong in. I guess it makes the changes easier to take for some people to see everything in a positive light. But for me once Jackson started making up characters and changing the plot of the whole story around. All the while trying to justify them, with answers that are in themselves vague and IMO side stepping the questions, he lost any respect I had for him from making LOTR. Sure there were character changes in LOTR BUT The character changes in those films were only minor(in comparison)and any made up characters were none with any real substantial plot deviations, which Tauriel surely creates since she is a totally made up, non Tolkien character. doing things that NEVER HAPPENED in the story. I do not consider the captain of the guard an actual developed character in the book since he was vague and had maybe a couple lines and was gone after a few paragraphs. Maybe if Lilly were there for a couple lines and gone after only a few minutes I could accept the character a whole lot more than i do. Wink


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 29 2013, 11:28pm


Views: 259
Actually, that is not an accurate translation


In Reply To
I really couldn't care less about Lilly or the made up character of Tauriel. I think she is going to be, as Lilly herself put it, "a black mark", in the world of Tolkien. The whole concept of the character from what we have heard so far screams foul and goes against the source material itself. Even the supposed names meaning screams a bunch of crap. "Daughter of Mirkwood"... I thought it was Greenwood to the elves. and since Jackson felt the need to have it turning bad IN the Hobbit timeline. I'm sure the name didn't just change overnight. Some people are just optimistic about her, some are being realistic about her and her involvement in something she doesn't belong in. I guess it makes the changes easier to take for some people to see everything in a positive light. But for me once Jackson started making up characters and changing the plot of the whole story around. All the while trying to justify them, with answers that are in themselves vague and IMO side stepping the questions, he lost any respect I had for him from making LOTR. Sure there were character changes in LOTR BUT The character changes in those films were only minor(in comparison)and any made up characters were none with any real substantial plot deviations, which Tauriel surely creates since she is a totally made up, non Tolkien character. doing things that NEVER HAPPENED in the story. I do not consider the captain of the guard an actual developed character in the book since he was vague and had maybe a couple lines and was gone after a few paragraphs. Maybe if Lilly were there for a couple lines and gone after only a few minutes I could accept the character a whole lot more than i do. Wink



It's not as bad as you fear. "Daughter of Mirkwood" is not the literal translation of the name Tauriel.

taur S 'wood', 'forest'
-iel feminine name suffix, 'daughter of', 'maiden'
Tauriel S 'daughter of the wood', 'forest maiden'

The name has nothing to do with reflecting the nature of Mirkwood Forest, so you can at least stop worrying about that.

When a story is adapted from one media to another it is often necessary to make some changes to accomodate the nature of the new media. The Hobbit as a children's book can allow Gandalf to drop out of the narrative for an extended period of time with only a vague answer as to what he was up to. A film audience isn't going to put up with that, and so we see Gandalf meeting with the White Council and eventually will see the Council assault Dol Guldur. Likewise, the films must paint a more complete picture of the people and places that Bilbo and the dwarves encounter.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 29 2013, 11:30pm)


Elenorflower
Gondor


May 30 2013, 12:06am


Views: 257
I am not looking forward to

her character arc or her character at all. I bet she does a Michelle Rodrguez and starts chewing a cigar.


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


May 30 2013, 2:59am


Views: 242
Character Ownership

I've seen no one ask the question of who owns the character of Tauriel. It wasn't in Tolkien's book. It's an invention of the writers and probably owned by the studio, producers or director despite the world into which it is placed. This leads me into some questions about how a studio might figure out how to get around certain rights and royalty obligations to the Tolkien Estate, earning more profit from the marketing of Tauriel merchandise. Profit is the kind of thing where investors quickly lose their artistic integrity.

What do you think - is it too cynical to think of Tauriel as an opportunistic profit center?


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on May 30 2013, 3:01am)


Yngwulff
Gondor


May 30 2013, 6:06am


Views: 230
woman warrior

  A woman as a warrior does not bother me. Even one like Red Sonja or Lagertha, Ragnar's wife; a shieldmaiden from the Vikings show. Making her a death dealing assasin for the sake just having a token female heroine is another matter.

We'll just have to wait and see how this plays out


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


Semper Fi
Rohan

May 30 2013, 10:37am


Views: 223
Agreed, the issue shouldn`t be with her gender but with her shooter video game characterisation

It`s a sad day when Tolkien world has to borrow from video games instead of other way around. And that applies to characters of any gender. If they smack of a video game (all souless shoot`em`up, no substance, obligatory leather fetishism) than it`s really bad. And everything Lilly said about Tauriel so far points out to a typical souless video game knock-off.


DwellerInDale
Rohan


May 31 2013, 2:50pm


Views: 195
Montage of images for comparison; you be the judge

The linked picture shows the two image sources together, Dol Guldur with Gandalf and Evangeline Lilly as Tauriel. Everything seems to match: the grey stone blocks, the triple set of steps, the stone columns, the gnarly trees.

Link

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 31 2013, 6:15pm


Views: 172
I'd say that it could go either way...


In Reply To
The linked picture shows the two image sources together, Dol Guldur with Gandalf and Evangeline Lilly as Tauriel. Everything seems to match: the grey stone blocks, the triple set of steps, the stone columns, the gnarly trees.



There are certainly plenty of similarities between the images. However, I would expect those same kind of conditions to be found within the Desolation of Smaug. In my opionion, it's too close to call.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


t_bomb
Registered User


Jun 1 2013, 4:39pm


Views: 150
If I had a complaint to anticipate...

It would be that her outfit isn't sexy enough.

Cheers


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Jun 2 2013, 6:10am


Views: 201
Forget the outfit

Just have her go skinny dipping with Legolas in some hot springs somewhere.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Jun 2 2013, 6:10am)