The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The Hobbit: The Humiliation of Mithrandir



Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


May 2 2013, 5:29pm


Views: 13762
The Hobbit: The Humiliation of Mithrandir

Warning: No small amount of sarcasm and annoyance following, but *it is purposeful*-I am certainly not the only one who worries about this.

Perhaps the thread title would be a more fitting title for Peter Jackson's second Hobbit installment. I love the films but it's clear we are hitting on problems.

So, in An Unexpected Journey we've established the fact that Gandalf is answerable to the much more formidable Lady Galadriel, who is clearly far more powerful than even Saruman the White (or at least so the filmmakers seem to believe, though I hope our late professor would have a thing or two to say to them). Galadriel has commanded Gandalf to "show her" the Morgul blade and has been his listen lady when he needed to talk (Gandalf's line about "the small things" was great, but the tone of the scene was not). We have seen how Gandalf has been treated disrespectfully by each member of the council: Elrond questioning him and frowning at him, telling him that he is "not the only guardian to stand watch over Middle-earth". Saruman being Saruman has of course belittled all of Gandalf's efforts.

Therefore, by the stage of film two Gandalf has clearly been singled out as the inferior. Sir Ian McKellen (who, in all seriousness is the best thing about Gandalf's portrayal) has told us that at some point Gandalf will be rescued by his friend Radagast, though this is acceptable, since they are of the same order. The real problem arises now that we know about the whole "Gandalf doll" scenario. I presume therefore that the Wizard is knocked out of the battle of Dol Guldur, having been injured by (knowing PJ) a lowly Orc, or even worse by his nemesis the Witch-King (We book fans haven't forgotten the RotK EE). But fear not, for help is at hand and in one sweep The Great and Mighty Galadriel picks up Gandalf's unconscious form and bears him out of the fray, returning in wrath to single-handedly throw down the walls of Dol Guldur (this is PJ, remember, and don't forget that this exact thing happened many years later).

Because of this, Gandalf is probably late to the battle of the Five Armies and is therefore denied several of his finest moments: saving Bilbo from Thorin's wrath and his delivery of "Halt! Dread has come upon you all!" Doubtless he will end up with his arm in a sling, just to make sure that several more non-book readers can have permission to dub Gandalf as "the worst Wizard ever".

Well, that was a rant. I know a lot of this isn't set in stone but some of the words dropped by cast/crew members are very worrying indeed.

Fellow Gandalf fans, tell me: how did it come to this?

"True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one."


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


May 2 2013, 5:45pm


Views: 10251
Im just waiting

for our greyish, pointy hat friend to deliver his EPIC monologue Angelic

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


DanielLB
Immortal


May 2 2013, 5:48pm


Views: 10258
You lost me at this part...


In Reply To
So, in An Unexpected Journey we've established the fact that Gandalf is answerable to the much more formidable Lady Galadriel, who is clearly far more powerful than even Saruman the White (or at least so the filmmakers seem to believe, though I hope our late professor would have a thing or two to say to them).


Do we need to go round in circles?


imin
Valinor


May 2 2013, 5:53pm


Views: 10101
Lol, isn't that the plan until DOS is released? :P //

 

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 2 2013, 6:05pm


Views: 10080
A Wizard is never Late.


In Reply To
Because of this, Gandalf is probably late to the battle of the Five Armies and is therefore denied several of his finest moments: saving Bilbo from Thorin's wrath and his delivery of "Halt! Dread has come upon you all!" Doubtless he will end up with his arm in a sling, just to make sure that several more non-book readers can have permission to dub Gandalf as "the worst Wizard ever".



This isn't necessarily the case at all. Tolkien, at least, has the Council's assault on Dol Guldur take place long before the Battle of Five Armies (Gandalf is finishing up his business there about the same time that Thorin and Company arrive at Lake-town). I don't know how Peter Jackson is going to reaarrange events, but hopefully he won't place the two battles too close together.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Hamfast of Gamwich
Rivendell


May 2 2013, 6:09pm


Views: 10098
I think you're jumping the gun somewhat

Other people talking down to someone doesn't mean they are necessarily inferior. And anyway, it's not clear that either Garladriel or Elrond talk to Gandalf as an inferior at any point in the film. Galadriel told Gandalf to show her, but this wasn't an order. He'd taken it to the meeting and had it on his lap anyway, it' not like her wasn't going to bring it out. At worst Elrond spoke to him as an equal when he asked him some questions.

Also, don't forget the fact that Gandalf cons the rest of the White Council, he essentially keeps them talking as Thorin and co escape. Galadriel had no idea about this and sounded impressed when she said "you knew."

"Durin's Heir you may be, but even with one eye you should see clearer. If this is victory, then our hands are too small to hold it. We will not enter Khazad-dum. You will not enter Khazad-dum. Beyond the shadow of the gate it waits for you still: Durins Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durins Folk walk again in Moria.


Balderdash Baggins
The Shire

May 2 2013, 6:36pm


Views: 10078
Well, as a fellow Gandalf fan...

I have to say that I'm not concerned. The "real" Gandalf is and always will be the one who was brought to life in the words of Professor Tolkien. All of the characters in Peter Jackson's movies have huge differences versus the characters in the books, and Gandalf is no exception.


MorgolKing
Rivendell

May 2 2013, 7:26pm


Views: 9998
Yeah

I agree the White Council scene was terrible. I was really looking forward to it but Boyens and Co. felt they had really push upon the audience that Galadriel was the most powerful being on Middle Earth.

Just do what I'm going to do and edit that scene or take it out entirely. I'm probably going to edit most of it out but keep some of it so I can still see Saruman in the movie.


Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


May 2 2013, 7:30pm


Views: 9981
Well

I enjoyed the scene itself, it was just the whole Galadriel thing...I can let them off, I still enjoy the film very much and I do like that scene...just not nearly as much as I thought I would.

"True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one."


Darkstone
Immortal


May 2 2013, 7:34pm


Views: 10051
Well, yeah....

"Who would go ? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aul, and Alatar, who was sent by Orom. Then Manw asked, where was Olrin ? And Olrin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manw would have of him. Manw replied that he wished Olrin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olrin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manw's choice). But Olrin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manw said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olrin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.
-Unfinished Tales - The Istari

"For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of the earth, able to hunger and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errrors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek and rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to do good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt."
- ibid

"Saruman soon became jealous of Gandalf, and this rivalry turned at last to a hatred... Saruman... grew to fear him, being ever uncertain how much Gandalf perceived of his inner mind.... So it was that openly he treated Gandalf with less respect than did others of the Wise... "
- Unfinished Tales, The Hunt for the Ring:

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.



(This post was edited by Darkstone on May 2 2013, 7:36pm)


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea


May 2 2013, 7:57pm


Views: 10012
What about Pippin saving Gandalfs life at ROTK?

If you can deal with it Im sure that you will deal what is gonna come in hobbit filmsWink

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!


Darkstone
Immortal


May 2 2013, 8:06pm


Views: 9940
Yep

That incident did quite nicely exemplify Tolkien's theme of the exaltation of the humble. And we're talking about a hobbit saving the upgraded Gandalf the White, not the humble Gandalf the Grey.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.



Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea


May 2 2013, 8:18pm


Views: 9948
I think in a Middle Earths power scale its a pretty good deal

And a good example, I have no matter with Galadriel saving Gandalf, in fact I like quiet the idea, I dont see Gandalf like the person that doesnt want to be helped, thats for Saruman I think.

I would dare to say that is necessary to show that part of Tolkiens spirit, and I want to see Galadriel entering into the dirty work

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


May 2 2013, 8:25pm


Views: 9953
I'm just thankful

Jackson can NOT use things from UT or the Silmarillion or any of Tolkien's other writings. Esp since what they did take from the appendices doesn't even resemble anything in them, in fact quite the opposite. Unsure


Arannir
Valinor

May 2 2013, 8:49pm


Views: 9873
Thanks for those ;)

The only thing not going in circles here ;-)


Darkstone
Immortal


May 2 2013, 8:50pm


Views: 9915
Considering that...

...the same can be said of Jackson's FOTR I'm bemused that people still have the capacity to be surprised by each successive adaptation.

But if you watch each film carefully you'll find Jackson and Co. frequently filtched from Tolkien's other writings. I'm still at a loss as to why CT hasn't sued the pants off Jackson and had the films seized and burned.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.



MatthewJer18
Rohan

May 2 2013, 9:33pm


Views: 9908
Yeah, this does seem like going in circles at this point...

I don't think Gandalf was "humiliated" in the White Council scene in the slightest. He's naturally going to have to explain himself to the Council when he arrives at Rivendell under strange circumstances and presents some fairly extraordinary claims to its senior members. That's not making him always "answerable" to the Council, it's making him answerable within the context of the scene. It makes perfect sense. What I'm getting is that some people want a very simplistically-rendered Gandalf who is always absolutely superior at every moment in the story, even when it would simply not make much narrative sense.

Allow me to also differ on Gandalf's relationship with Galadriel. I think it's fascinating.


(This post was edited by MatthewJer18 on May 2 2013, 9:36pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


May 2 2013, 9:46pm


Views: 9909
Fascinating relationship indeed!

"Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top. The tower behind was crumbled into dust, the window gone; the ruined stair was choked with burned and broken stone. I was alone, forgotten, without escape upon the hard horn of the world. There I lay staring upward, while the stars wheeled over, and each day was as long as a life-age of the earth. Faint to my ears came the gathered rumour of all lands: the springing and the dying, the song and the weeping, and the slow everlasting groan of overburdened stone. And so at the last Gwaihir the Windlord found me again, and he took me up and bore me away.
"Ever am I fated to be your burden, friend at need," I said.
"A burden you have been," he answered,"but not so now. Light as a swan's feather in my claw you are. The Sun shines through you. Indeed I do not think you need me any more: were I to let you fall you would float upon the wind."
"Do not let me fall!" I gasped, for I felt life in me again. "Bear me to Lothlrien!"
"That indeed is the command of the Lady Galadriel who sent me to look for you," he answered.

-TTT

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.



Lusitano
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 1:00am


Views: 9812
There are people who wish

Jackson would get his kiwi pawns on TS and UT ShockedCrazy

Insert Darth Vader's NO scream.


Thankfully, we're safe.Wink

If in the future, they end up being adapted, it is only sensible to give them to someone else.

Tim Burton perhaps?Sly

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Yngwulff
Gondor


May 3 2013, 2:12am


Views: 9774
OP

I think Gandalf's seeming inferiority has more to do with his own self-doubt than anything else. I don't see Lady Galadriel hammering him for what he does, AND she does side more with him and confide with him instead of Saruman. Who knows what she has seen in her mirror ...


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


Elessar
Valinor


May 3 2013, 2:25am


Views: 9758
I would be one of those people

And proud to be one. Cool



Sinister71
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 2:33am


Views: 9759
Honestly I would LOVE to see...

the Tolkien estate get the rights to ALL JRR Tolkien's works back and do what Marvel did. Produce and Make the films themselves with the best interest of the author and reverence to the source material in mind when making them. Jackson obviously does not have the source materials best interest in his heart. Hence all the needless and unnecessary changes to The Hobbit and LOTR. LOTR I was more willing to accept because they at least felt natural in most cases, plus they were done in a realistic style. But with the Hobbit the changes and embelishments just felt cartoonish and really felt like a disservice to the source material.


(This post was edited by sinister71 on May 3 2013, 2:34am)


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 3:39am


Views: 9764
haters gonna hate...

 


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 3 2013, 6:23am


Views: 9793
One shouldn't confuse

a humble demeanor - which is a choice made by Gandalf about how he will present himself - with inferiority or powerlessness. Besides, despite the little bait-and-switch they did with Galadriel's first appearance, I thought it was quite obvious that Saruman was the one in charge, as head of the Istari - and so did he. What I saw was Gandalf being diplomatic and saying as little as possible when faced with an awkward surprise Council meeting he hadn't planned on or prepared for, and Galadriel picking up on it and trying to figure out what he's up to. And once she does, she's on his side. Elrond seems like the reluctant host. I have a mental image of Saruman showing up without warning and announcing to Elrond that he's called a meeting for tomorrow if not sooner and demanding to know what Elrond thinks he's doing assisting Gandalf and his rabble of dwarves to upset the status quo of Middle-earth. During the Council meeting, Elrond seems to me to be watching the proceedings from a deliberately neutral stance, and with a certain amount of ironical amusement at the wizards' conflict.

Here's the subtext I see in this situation:

Elrond: "You are not the only guardian of Middle-earth"
Subtext: "Saruman's all upset. You're in hot water, my friend! And if you bring him unexpectedly down on my head like this again, we will have words."

Gandalf: "Galadriel! I didn't know you'd be here! SO NICE to see you!"
Subtext: 'What's up with Galadriel, to make Elrond give me the stink-eye like that? Something's not right here. Be extra friendly."

Saruman: "I called this meeting!"
Subtext: "You're meddling again, and I'm going to show you who's boss!"

Gandalf: "Saruman!"
Subtext: "@(&!*#^! That explains Elrond. Must tread carefully."


For the rest of the meeting, Gandalf is feeling his way and trying to say as little as possible, while Galadriel digs to find out the truth, Saruman gives Gandalf a lecture on not rocking the boat (Saruman's boat most of all), and Elrond is not going to commit himself in any direction until he has all the facts - and can preferably avoid another annoying lecture from Saruman.

In the end, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and Gandalf's plans turn out quite well. He doesn't have to act large and in charge in order to be effective or powerful. He's both, even while his wisdom and power are cloaked and disguised in gray humility.

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Arannir
Valinor

May 3 2013, 6:55am


Views: 9686
100% agreed.

And very funny post, thanks for a good laugh ;)


Arannir
Valinor

May 3 2013, 6:58am


Views: 2972
I for what its worth would pay good money...

...to see those pawns make "The Children of Hurin" come alive Sly

If you take out the problem with Morogoth being there before and after, I always thought this one is "easier" (dramaturgy-wise) to adapt in a screenplay than TH and especially LotR.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 7:06am


Views: 2960
I share ALL of your fears, even if I am not QUITE as grim in my reading of his interaction in AUJ. Not QUITE!!!

I was most bothered by Galadriel's initial interaction with him, because it was entirely inappropriate and innacurate. Being one of the few who KNEW he was an Ainur, an Angelic Holy Spirit sent by Eru and The Valar to give aid, she would not have treated him with anything that might be perceived as condescension. She would not have bowed and scraped, of course, nor would he ever have desired it so, but she wouldn't have treated him in anyway like an underling in need of instruction

Sadly, the way they structured that interface DAMAGED the otherwise WONDERFUL last interaction between them in film 1. Her words of comfort and the moment of friendly intimacy between them were wonderful, but the ambigously superior leaning way she interacts with them leading up to that moment makes it seem to some uninformed eyes more like a promise of aid from the Mighty to the less mighty, than the promise of support to a Mighty figure who still cannot be expected to stand alone against all the evils of the world.

I don't think Elrond's interaction was a problem, because it was made clear that Gandalf never felt or acted inferior to Elrond. Saruman's behaviour was perfectly in keeping with what we know of Saruman, jealous of Gandalf and ever trying to gainsay him in front of others among The Wise. The problem lay in just how defferent Gandalf was at moments. "I am only doing what I think is right,". . . that is not the tone of the Gandalf who blew enchanted smoke rings in Saruman's face, and pointedly ignored him at a council meeting during which Saruman was undermining his imperative prompting to move against Sauron.

I will say, this is another area in which a slightly larger council would have helped. Showing the Wizard to be one of the core, chief members of a greater body, rather than possibly the lowliest (seemingly from some perspectives) member of a quartet,.

Now, while my take on An Unexpected is SLIGHTLY less critical than yours concerning this matter, my fears moving forward are no less. How Dol Guldur is handled will go a long way towards how movie Gandalf is perceived in relation to the council ever after, and it will have larger implications for the entire film series. At worst, we could end up with a film series in which Wizards are suggested to be definitively inferior to High Elves and to The Witch King, and in which their is a perception that Galadriel or The Witch King of Angmar (a lieutenant of Sauron), could both have easily defeated a Balrog (a lieutenant of Melkor The Morgoth). A great many things could be badly turned upside down.


My great hope is that the Gandalf of the films has a transplated Amon Sul book moment in Dol Guldur against The Nine, more than holds his own, but is perhaps rescued as in picked up by Radagast once Sauron also enters the fray and the legions of Dol Guldur are loosed.

As to Galadriel. . . I SINCERELY hope that when Gandalf is injured, it is in the midst of battle with Sauron et al, and ALL of the members of THe Council are struggling, including Galadriel, and she makes a desperate stand and rescues him as an equal and comrade. MY GREAT FEAR is that he will be totally outclassed, and when he is shown to be completely in over his head, Galadriel will show up in an aura of unassailable light, impervious to all harm, floating along just as glorious and confident as she does in her own land of Lothlorien, quashing threats that Gandalf was barely matching strength with, and lifting him up like a goddess would a babe, after displaying powers to shame him, Sauron and every other Council member. THAT would be a travesty beyond words.

In Reply To
Warning: No small amount of sarcasm and annoyance following, but *it is purposeful*-I am certainly not the only one who worries about this.

Perhaps the thread title would be a more fitting title for Peter Jackson's second Hobbit installment. I love the films but it's clear we are hitting on problems.

So, in An Unexpected Journey we've established the fact that Gandalf is answerable to the much more formidable Lady Galadriel, who is clearly far more powerful than even Saruman the White (or at least so the filmmakers seem to believe, though I hope our late professor would have a thing or two to say to them). Galadriel has commanded Gandalf to "show her" the Morgul blade and has been his listen lady when he needed to talk (Gandalf's line about "the small things" was great, but the tone of the scene was not). We have seen how Gandalf has been treated disrespectfully by each member of the council: Elrond questioning him and frowning at him, telling him that he is "not the only guardian to stand watch over Middle-earth". Saruman being Saruman has of course belittled all of Gandalf's efforts.

Therefore, by the stage of film two Gandalf has clearly been singled out as the inferior. Sir Ian McKellen (who, in all seriousness is the best thing about Gandalf's portrayal) has told us that at some point Gandalf will be rescued by his friend Radagast, though this is acceptable, since they are of the same order. The real problem arises now that we know about the whole "Gandalf doll" scenario. I presume therefore that the Wizard is knocked out of the battle of Dol Guldur, having been injured by (knowing PJ) a lowly Orc, or even worse by his nemesis the Witch-King (We book fans haven't forgotten the RotK EE). But fear not, for help is at hand and in one sweep The Great and Mighty Galadriel picks up Gandalf's unconscious form and bears him out of the fray, returning in wrath to single-handedly throw down the walls of Dol Guldur (this is PJ, remember, and don't forget that this exact thing happened many years later).

Because of this, Gandalf is probably late to the battle of the Five Armies and is therefore denied several of his finest moments: saving Bilbo from Thorin's wrath and his delivery of "Halt! Dread has come upon you all!" Doubtless he will end up with his arm in a sling, just to make sure that several more non-book readers can have permission to dub Gandalf as "the worst Wizard ever".

Well, that was a rant. I know a lot of this isn't set in stone but some of the words dropped by cast/crew members are very worrying indeed.

Fellow Gandalf fans, tell me: how did it come to this?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 7:08am


Views: 3110
Pointy BLUE hat. That is key to its description, and I find it notable and

vexing that film related tie ins have taken to leaving that part out of the description for the sake of the faulty merchandise, or the film's capitulating way of wavering between showing it as light blue here but grey in other scenes, and a hybrid in still more.

In Reply To
for our greyish, pointy hat friend to deliver his EPIC monologue Angelic


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 7:17am


Views: 2995
The problem Silverlode, is that while we learned and in the know can differnetiate and explain it away

unread viewers will often not have the requisite backknowledge to do so. What many of them see is what is on the Surface: Gandalf supposedly being answerable to Galadriel AND Saruman, and taking a lot of instruction from Galadriel without seemingly imparting any advice in return.

In Reply To
a humble demeanor - which is a choice made by Gandalf about how he will present himself - with inferiority or powerlessness. Besides, despite the little bait-and-switch they did with Galadriel's first appearance, I thought it was quite obvious that Saruman was the one in charge, as head of the Istari - and so did he. What I saw was Gandalf being diplomatic and saying as little as possible when faced with an awkward surprise Council meeting he hadn't planned on or prepared for, and Galadriel picking up on it and trying to figure out what he's up to. And once she does, she's on his side. Elrond seems like the reluctant host. I have a mental image of Saruman showing up without warning and announcing to Elrond that he's called a meeting for tomorrow if not sooner and demanding to know what Elrond thinks he's doing assisting Gandalf and his rabble of dwarves to upset the status quo of Middle-earth. During the Council meeting, Elrond seems to me to be watching the proceedings from a deliberately neutral stance, and with a certain amount of ironical amusement at the wizards' conflict.

Here's the subtext I see in this situation:

Elrond: "You are not the only guardian of Middle-earth"
Subtext: "Saruman's all upset. You're in hot water, my friend! And if you bring him unexpectedly down on my head like this again, we will have words."

Gandalf: "Galadriel! I didn't know you'd be here! SO NICE to see you!"
Subtext: 'What's up with Galadriel, to make Elrond give me the stink-eye like that? Something's not right here. Be extra friendly."

Saruman: "I called this meeting!"
Subtext: "You're meddling again, and I'm going to show you who's boss!"

Gandalf: "Saruman!"
Subtext: "@(&!*#^! That explains Elrond. Must tread carefully."


For the rest of the meeting, Gandalf is feeling his way and trying to say as little as possible, while Galadriel digs to find out the truth, Saruman gives Gandalf a lecture on not rocking the boat (Saruman's boat most of all), and Elrond is not going to commit himself in any direction until he has all the facts - and can preferably avoid another annoying lecture from Saruman.

In the end, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and Gandalf's plans turn out quite well. He doesn't have to act large and in charge in order to be effective or powerful. He's both, even while his wisdom and power are cloaked and disguised in gray humility.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


emre43
Rohan

May 3 2013, 7:29am


Views: 2940
The other Council members are merely speaking their minds.

Would be little point in them being there if they were just going to sit idle and silent. Gandalf may be powerful but it doesn't mean he has infinite knowledge, lack of fear and cleanse Dol Guldur of all of its inhabitants single-handedly Bruce Willis style.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 3 2013, 7:42am


Views: 2978
Well, then...

it will be a chance for them to learn not to judge by appearances, won't it?

What I explained in my post was my reaction to the scene on first viewing, and it's only been strengthened by further watching. It's how I instinctively read the characters as acted out onscreen, not how I have envisioned them in my head from much reading (that's rather different, actually). The White Council meeting feels awkward (intentionally, I think) but it doesn't deter Gandalf from his plans or prevent the dwarves from carrying on with theirs, and it demonstrates that Galadriel has placed herself on Gandalf's team and that Saruman is going to be the roadblock to doing anything about the Necromancer. It's enough to be going on with, until we see how further evidence results in the attack on Dol Guldur in the next movie or perhaps two.

The next two movies will show Gandalf being proved right and his plans to take out the dragon and search out the truth of the Necromancer succeeding (even if the attack on Dol Guldur doesn't - and that fact sets up for the rise of Sauron). And then there's LOTR, where Gandalf fulfills his mission as the Enemy of Sauron and sails West in the company of Elrond and Galadriel, who show nothing but respect for him. If someone gets the wrong idea now, it will likely be corrected in the long run, and I'm content to let it play out because the overall outcome is assured. You see, I know how the story ends. Wink

Besides, if there's one thing I've learned in over a decade of fandom, it's that people will have as many different reactions to and interpretations of the same thing as you could possibly think of, and even some you couldn't. One can't control others' perceptions, and I think it's futile to try, or to worry overmuch about it. Some people pick up on subtext, others don't. It doesn't mean everything has to be spelled out for everyone in words of one syllable. How exactly could you make sure that everyone who watches the movie understands everything without spelling it out too plainly? I prefer a little ambiguity - even a little misdirection and the occasional smokescreen - to that, even if it means someone somewhere doesn't "get" it.

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Arannir
Valinor

May 3 2013, 7:58am


Views: 2953
I very much agree with this...

... I also doubt that a huge majority will judge from those scenes that Galadriel is superior. A lot actually will not even care and especially for them Gandalf will always remain "the guy who always safes the day and is right in the end" which sticks with the average moviegoer more than Galadriel ever will imho.

And those who get hooked up with Tolkien and lore will find out eventually because they want to learn more about those power statuses. I actually do like it that they never really adressed Gandalf's origins and that he remains rather ambigious. Because that is the way it was for most people in Middle-earth as well, while Galadriel was "that elf witch" people knew even less about and thus feared.

I am positive that Gandalf will only be carried and rescued by Galadriel (if it will play out that way) because he - once again - was the one willing to sacrifice and risk much more than for example Saruman in the battle against Evil.


Yngwulff
Gondor


May 3 2013, 8:43am


Views: 2945
TTT ...

Even in the Two Towers, Gandalf was subserviant to Saruman (up until his treachery was revealed) as the Head of their Order, and dutifully deferred to him.

Saruman was mightier than Gandalf (up until Gandalf came back from his defeat of the Balrog and his subsequent passing), and he did subdue Gandalf and make him a prisoner in Orthanc.

At the time of the the Quest for Erebor, Gandalf was the weakest member of the White Council.

Regardless of Sarumans haughty, some might say pompously know-it-all attitude, he was annoyed at Gandalf for several reasons ...

-He got the Ring of Fire, not Sauman
-He showed him up with the Morgul Blade and proved him wrong.
-Most importantly, he fears Gandalfs "meddling" in peoples affairs will interfere with his search for the One Ring.


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


Arannir
Valinor

May 3 2013, 8:48am


Views: 2944
He wasn't the weakest...

... in terms of pure power-potential. There, he was above Elrond and Galadriel.

But I wasn't arguing power dynamics between Saruman and Gandalf in my post, anyway, I just wanted to underline that it makes sense for him to get harmed in the DG battle as he usually risks much more for his mission than all the other Istari and also members of the White Council.


Yngwulff
Gondor


May 3 2013, 8:54am


Views: 2951
Who was the weakest then in terms of power?

I still argue it was Gandlaf.


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


Arannir
Valinor

May 3 2013, 9:15am


Views: 2948
From the four we got in AUJ...

... Elrond, since Galadriel is mentioned as the most powerful of the Elves left in Middle-earth. However, all of this is not 100% fixed, since Elrond seems to be the less-powerful Elf, however, he has the more powerful Ring (Vilya).

It is even more ambigious when it comes to influence over Middle-earth, which is, of course, also power-related. Here both Galadriel's and Elrond's doings and influence is very hard to judge, though Elrond seemed to have far stronger contact to the realms of men.

Gandalf and Saruman are Ainur, they are on a different level altogether, with Gandalf probably being one of the most humble among the WC members and probably the most self-conscious.


(This post was edited by Arannir on May 3 2013, 9:18am)


t_bomb
Registered User


May 3 2013, 1:56pm


Views: 2890
When you've got a serious crush

on someone, you give them all kinds of power. Maybe this observation has already been made, but I detected some slight lightness in Elrond's line when he indicates Galadriel as someone Gandalf must answer to. Whatever intimacy exists between G & G, Elrond knows about it. Gandalf is beholden to Galadriel -- not because of some "chain of command" -- but because he is very heartily smitten by her.


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 2:19pm


Views: 2903
Hack!

Go away, go away! Tongue

Now, honestly, you might say that, but i suspect you dont keep eating the same blueberry pie all the time. You enjoy trying out new things. Tongue

Sinister71 : "Produce and Make the films themselves with the best interest of the author and reverence to the source material in mind when making them"

This should be any director's mantra or approach to any Tolkien matertial.

You are quite right.

The only chance for C.Tolkien to see a proper adaptation of Lotr, that i can imagine, at this point, would be a television adaptation. With a smaller budget, but more competent directing, writing and acting, and a usage of natural locations such as castles, mansions and far less CGI jiggery pockery...Like HBO's GOT does.

One can hope.Smile

Arannir : i must admit i have not read Children....( ducks for cover)

AinurOlorin : I just imagined 40 something Tolkien geek at a highway, dressed in the manner of the druids or wizards, with a long, wooden staff, shouting to the said merchandise trucks : YOUUUU SHALL NOOOOOOT PAAAAAASSSS!!

Wink

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Arannir
Valinor

May 3 2013, 2:20pm


Views: 2882
Although I think "crush" is the wrong word...

... this - for me - is the explanation of the "it is not me you must answer to".

Elrond knows, the only one Gandalf may actually listen to without arguing all the time is Galadriel.

And his back-up is Saruman, kind of. His superior, which explains Gandalf's reaction ("Oh... this just got much more complicated.").


Arannir
Valinor

May 3 2013, 2:25pm


Views: 2885
I have to add to this...

... that people over at the Board of Ice and Fire have the same troubles with the adaptation of the books than some people here do with Tolkien's books.

Things like "complete and useless deviation", "character assassination", "Would have never happened in the books" etc. can be read there all the time, really.


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 2:31pm


Views: 2876
Indeed

i am a lurker there.

But they are very different materials. And the produced adaptation is mostly really, really good, and very unique, so its quite different from what jackson makes.

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Arannir
Valinor

May 3 2013, 2:37pm


Views: 2886
Well, I would argue...

... both do very unique and very good things, but that is simply a matter of taste ;)

My problem wih GoT is a bit that I simply do not like were the books went after Volume 3, so I am a bit careful to get too invested in the series.


(This post was edited by Arannir on May 3 2013, 2:37pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


May 3 2013, 2:56pm


Views: 2866
Gandalf the Greyinator!

Oh, I can just see The Greyinator at Moria: "Yippee ki-yay, flame of Udn!"

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.



(This post was edited by Darkstone on May 3 2013, 3:00pm)


Elwen
Lorien


May 3 2013, 3:33pm


Views: 2854
Spot on...

with your subtexts. The only one I saw a little differently was Elrond. I didn't see that last sentence. I'll have to watch that scene again now that you've mentioned it. I'm sure Elrond wouldn't appreciate Saruman showing up at his doorstep in a tizzy, so it's reasonable.

Before kids, exercising with LOTR meant listening to the soundtrack while I ran.

After kids, exercising with LOTR means having an all out dance party with the little ones to the "Break the Dam Release the River" disco mix form the Lego game.


Darkstone
Immortal


May 3 2013, 4:02pm


Views: 2849
Exactly!


In Reply To
In the end, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and Gandalf's plans turn out quite well. He doesn't have to act large and in charge in order to be effective or powerful. He's both, even while his wisdom and power are cloaked and disguised in gray humility.


Saruman soon became jealous of Gandalf, and this rivalry turned at last to a hatred, the deeper for being concealed, and the more bitter in that Saruman knew in his heart that the Grey Wanderer had the greater strength, and the greater influence upon the dwellers in Middle-earth, even though he hid his power and desired neither fear nor reverence."
-Unfinished Tales - The Hunt for the Ring

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.



Darkstone
Immortal


May 3 2013, 4:08pm


Views: 2909
Jackson just can't win.

He either "doesn't trust the audience enough", or else "doesn't spell things out for them".

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.



Elessar
Valinor


May 3 2013, 4:18pm


Views: 2872
I don't like.....

blueberry pie. Cool I try new things but I will say there are certain things I just can't get enough of so I keep going back for more of the same.




nhui06
Rivendell

May 3 2013, 4:32pm


Views: 2839
Its all good to me

I personally don't mind the humble and slightly goofy portrayal of Gandalf. Sort of like a grandpa-figure for the inhabitants of Middle-Earth. I think most casual film goers are not as interested in the politics or the background of Mithrandir.


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 5:14pm


Views: 2852
If you dont stop

youre going to get sick of eating the same thing...Tongue

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Elessar
Valinor


May 3 2013, 5:19pm


Views: 2841
Only if

its the only thing I ever eat. I mix other stuff in to keep me looking forward to the next time.



AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 6:24pm


Views: 2920
No, it won't. Because to learn the lesson, one must be corrected. What are the odds of

millions of people who base their knowledge of the world on the films and never see the books ever being properly corrected in the erroneous conclusions that they draw? Unless they have a more lorelearned friend on hand to bring The Good News lol.

Again, your take is already coloured by your knowledge. You KNOW what he is, you KNOW who is who and how they relate. You would never ask, as the husband of a member of these boards did according to her, "So, is Galadriel one of the Wizards?" It would never occur to you, unless they directly and blatantly stated otherwise, that Galadriel was Gandalf's executive superior.

My concern is multifaceted, but one thing I have never feared is that people steeped in the novels will be brainwashed into a misunderstanding of the hierarchy of Arda. A major concern is that millions of viewers who don't know any better will be seriously mislead about the respective status of some of the most significant figures in the legendarium, in a way that will never be corrected.

You say anyone getting the wrong idea will have it corrected in the long run. To quote Sir Ian, "You know this? How?" And, in much the same tone as he uses when asking "Are we? Are we at peace?" I ask, how can you be certain of this. My fear is that it WON'T be corrected, but rather reinforced. I hope I am wrong.

Yes, he will be proven right, but will he be the Wise equal being proven right to peers, or the underling who happens to be on to something, as his even wiser Supereior Officer Galadriel rightly percieves?

The problem here is that the subtext and inferrences lean in the opposite direction of the facts. The scenes almost beg to be misread on this matter. How to determine people's perceptions? A little less bowing and scraping from a Holy Spirit to an Elf Queen might be a good start. A little sharing of sage advice between himself and the lady, rather than a seeminlgy one sided matter etc. etc.

And handling the Dol Guldur situation with tact! Allowing Galadriel to be shown for the mighty being that she is WITHOUT making her appear to far exceed even the embodied Maiar or to blow the rest of The Council out of the water, or to be invulnerable to the forces that are hindering the others.

In Reply To
it will be a chance for them to learn not to judge by appearances, won't it?

What I explained in my post was my reaction to the scene on first viewing, and it's only been strengthened by further watching. It's how I instinctively read the characters as acted out onscreen, not how I have envisioned them in my head from much reading (that's rather different, actually). The White Council meeting feels awkward (intentionally, I think) but it doesn't deter Gandalf from his plans or prevent the dwarves from carrying on with theirs, and it demonstrates that Galadriel has placed herself on Gandalf's team and that Saruman is going to be the roadblock to doing anything about the Necromancer. It's enough to be going on with, until we see how further evidence results in the attack on Dol Guldur in the next movie or perhaps two.

The next two movies will show Gandalf being proved right and his plans to take out the dragon and search out the truth of the Necromancer succeeding (even if the attack on Dol Guldur doesn't - and that fact sets up for the rise of Sauron). And then there's LOTR, where Gandalf fulfills his mission as the Enemy of Sauron and sails West in the company of Elrond and Galadriel, who show nothing but respect for him. If someone gets the wrong idea now, it will likely be corrected in the long run, and I'm content to let it play out because the overall outcome is assured. You see, I know how the story ends. Wink

Besides, if there's one thing I've learned in over a decade of fandom, it's that people will have as many different reactions to and interpretations of the same thing as you could possibly think of, and even some you couldn't. One can't control others' perceptions, and I think it's futile to try, or to worry overmuch about it. Some people pick up on subtext, others don't. It doesn't mean everything has to be spelled out for everyone in words of one syllable. How exactly could you make sure that everyone who watches the movie understands everything without spelling it out too plainly? I prefer a little ambiguity - even a little misdirection and the occasional smokescreen - to that, even if it means someone somewhere doesn't "get" it.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 6:41pm


Views: 2905
Lol. I am under 40 in this incarnation lol. But the rest could happen.


In Reply To


AinurOlorin : I just imagined 40 something Tolkien geek at a highway, dressed in the manner of the druids or wizards, with a long, wooden staff, shouting to the said merchandise trucks : YOUUUU SHALL NOOOOOOT PAAAAAASSSS!!

Wink


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 6:54pm


Views: 2926
My dear Radagast. . . don't you just HATE it when some significant matter is erroneously (and eggregiously so) portrayed

in the movies, and you get filled with righteous indiganation over it. . . only to have some of your own Ringer kin folk come in tweeting about how "well. . . it isn't so bad really, most people will probably (somehow magically even if they don't know the facts) see through to the way it is meant to be", yak yak yak, poor justification, worse justification, hallucination. . . . . Worst yet. . . the outright defenders of Heresy. Frown Sigh.


All you can say is. . . "Et Tu, Brutus?! . . . DAMN!" lol

I sometimes wonder. . . how far off of from the source would Jackson and Boyens and Walsh have to go before everyone unanimously said, "WTF? And put the breaks on things."

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 7:25pm


Views: 2892
Where would you get this idea?

The three Wizards who were part of the White Council are Maiar, basically gods to elves, men, dwarves, and hobbits. The spirits of Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast, are older than Arda (the world) itself, and the three of them had a part in the music that created the world. So while the physical forms that these three cloaked themselves in could be slain by lesser beings, there is still NO elf that could, under any circumstance, be considered "more powerful" than any of the Wizards. By the very nature of the Wizards, they are superior to elves. And of those 3 wizards, Radagast is portrayed by Tolkien as the weakest. So Gandalf was at least the second-most powerful member of the Council, and some would say THE most powerful.

At the time of the Quest for Erebor, the most powerful beings in Middle-earth that we know of would have been, in no particular order, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Durin's Bane, and the two Blue Wizards (Alatar and Pallando). I didn't include Bombadil because no one is sure exactly what he is.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 7:44pm


Views: 2893
While I certainly do hope for a more faithful adaptation one day...

I can't help but feel that if it were left up to the Tolkien Estate, and Christopher Tolkien in particular, we would never have gotten any films at all. He's gone on the record as saying that his dad's books were "...peculiarly unsuitable to transformation into visual dramatic form."


Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


May 3 2013, 8:23pm


Views: 2870
Agreed Master Olorin

I'm quite surprised at how smoothly some of the fans here have taken it: at least I'm glad that you agree with me on the whole. Sadly if PJ does do what I'm dreading then it might take the full-on shake-up (i.e. the content of film two) to make people realize just how wrong all of this is.

Some people are saying that they would actually like to see the scenario I discussed? Oh dear me....

"True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one."


Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


May 3 2013, 8:27pm


Views: 2867
Casual filmgoers aren't interested, true. We fans ARE interested, and very much so//

 

"True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one."


Arannir
Valinor

May 3 2013, 8:28pm


Views: 2898
Hallucination? Heresy? Righteous Indignation?

A bit dramatic, isn't it Cool But I guess one becomes like this after going through fire, water, death and the hands of the White Lady Blush

I guess, those of us who disagree with you can ask you the same questions. How do you know that people will get the wrong picture when several people here seem to have interpreted the scene in a totally diferent way than what you fear? And have talked to people without deeper knowledge who also did not feel like you?

So we all know people who know people who thought whatever we thought. Noone is more right after that, I guess.

And although you will probably burn me on all the stakes of Middle-earth for this: If there should be some regular moviegoer out there who thinks exactly like you fear, believing that Galadriel is the lady superior to poor old Gandalf and is never proven otherwise because he does not care for the lore outside of the movies... then... and now comes what signs my death sentence... will this not dimish the lore, the books or the movies in any way to those who do care and know. Neither will it dimish it for the guy who just enjoyed (or hated) the movie but couldn't care less about the legendarium. For a regular non-Tolkien-fan moviegoer this is not a gamechanger, in whatever way they interpret the scene. For this, Gandalf's role simply is too large and highlighted compared to Galadriel.

In the handling of Galadriel/Gandalf I have certainly not seen anything yet that would call for a plea to PJ, PB and FW. Because, even without any further knowledge, I simply did not see a superior and an inferior, but two being that do care deeply for another, one of them being the great guy who has sacrificed everything he has in all the movies we have met him so far, for the greater good. And that is what counts, also in Tolkien's spirit imho.


And yes, I call myself a massive Tolkien fan and lore freak ;)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 8:51pm


Views: 2896
You are absolutely right. And Bombadil is Maiar. We confirmed it during a long chat.

Wink lol. It isn't specified, but then neither was the nature of The Wizards, The Balrog or Sauron at the time of the novels publication. It was known that The Wizards were sent by the Valar from The Far West, that Melian was of the People of The Valar etc., but no specifics were givien beyond that. When considered, there is nothing else that a powerful Immortal like Bombadil COULD be, save a Maiar who entered the world in the distant past, and, like Melain though with different reasoning, decided to remain. There are certainly others, not recorded and of less power or presence than Bombadil, who dwelt in the woods and rivers. . . nature spirits, if you will, but still Holy in origin. If Melain, Sauron, The Balrogs and Wizards did not have their natures explicitly stated, they like Bombadil would have fallen into the, "What ARE You?" Category. Indeed, Pippin asks exactly that question. " . . . and Gandalf was older (than Denethor). Far older. How much older?. . . What was Gandalf?! At what far off place and time had he come into the World, and when would he leave it again."

Agreed otherwise. Gandalf was, indeed, the second mightiest of The Wizards order, though he appeared less majestic than the others (well, exempting Radagast if you go by the film's version lol). "The two Highest of this Order, of whom it is said there were five, were called by the Elves Mithrandir and Curinir, but by the Men of The North Gandalf and Saruman."

In Reply To
The three Wizards who were part of the White Council are Maiar, basically gods to elves, men, dwarves, and hobbits. The spirits of Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast, are older than Arda (the world) itself, and the three of them had a part in the music that created the world. So while the physical forms that these three cloaked themselves in could be slain by lesser beings, there is still NO elf that could, under any circumstance, be considered "more powerful" than any of the Wizards. By the very nature of the Wizards, they are superior to elves. And of those 3 wizards, Radagast is portrayed by Tolkien as the weakest. So Gandalf was at least the second-most powerful member of the Council, and some would say THE most powerful.

At the time of the Quest for Erebor, the most powerful beings in Middle-earth that we know of would have been, in no particular order, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Durin's Bane, and the two Blue Wizards (Alatar and Pallando). I didn't include Bombadil because no one is sure exactly what he is.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 9:17pm


Views: 2883
I have tried to resign myself (and not always triumphantly) to the fact that some fans, even among those who know better,

will make a lot of allowance for error in these films. And error is different from taking leeway to fill in the blanks. I love the movies, and have seldom complained when license was taken to add detail to a span of time or scene not detailed in the novels, but which might have happened in the empty space.

However, I have seen defenses of blatant, bold contradictions that were entirely unecessary. It is entirely possible to show Galadriel as great and powerful, and to have that feminine might on display, without diminishing The Ainur who have come to aid and guide all, including The Elves.

Different people get upset about different things. Not everyone gets put out, even at dramatic and potentially damaging, lasting alterations. My great fear when people are complacent is that the filmmakers will, if they become aware of the capitulation, take it as carte blanche to go ahead with the worst of their fabrications, or to push the boundaries even further.

In Reply To
I'm quite surprised at how smoothly some of the fans here have taken it: at least I'm glad that you agree with me on the whole. Sadly if PJ does do what I'm dreading then it might take the full-on shake-up (i.e. the content of film two) to make people realize just how wrong all of this is.

Some people are saying that they would actually like to see the scenario I discussed? Oh dear me....


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Rostron2
Gondor


May 3 2013, 9:24pm


Views: 2863
Thank you //

 


Arannir
Valinor

May 3 2013, 10:08pm


Views: 2858
The thing is...

... that not everybody sees the matter at hand here as a blatant, bold contradiction. So for those in that camp (like me) this has nothing to do with making excuses for errors at all.

Reasons have been given plenty here... and some nice quotes too.


But, once more, the nice thing about all this is that it is the love for those novels that stirrs all those discussions - from both sides. Just wanted to underline that before anything gets too heated :)



In Reply To


However, I have seen defenses of blatant, bold contradictions that were entirely unecessary. It is entirely possible to show Galadriel as great and powerful, and to have that feminine might on display, without diminishing The Ainur who have come to aid and guide all, including The Elves.


___

A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


Glorfindela
Valinor


May 3 2013, 10:19pm


Views: 2880
It didn't even occur to me that Gandalf seemed somehow inferior to Galadriel

What I saw was affection and respect between them (and that they were on the same wavelength), but certainly no indication that Gandalf was in some way subordinate to Galadriel and I've seen the film at least 20 times.

Not sure why these differences in perception arise.


In Reply To
In the handling of Galadriel/Gandalf I have certainly not seen anything yet that would call for a plea to PJ, PB and FW. Because, even without any further knowledge, I simply did not see a superior and an inferior, but two being that do care deeply for another, one of them being the great guy who has sacrificed everything he has in all the movies we have met him so far, for the greater good. And that is what counts, also in Tolkien's spirit imho.


And yes, I call myself a massive Tolkien fan and lore freak ;)



AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 10:25pm


Views: 2882
The fact is, for at least the next couple decades in all likelyhood, due to the massive popularity of these movies

the image of Gandalf they portray is going to be the one that is most fixed in the majority pop culture concioussness. Any facts of the book left out or altered for the film will likely become as lost, at least for a time, to the lay viewer and the popular conciousness, beyond hard fans and loremasters, as the knowledge that Glinda was not the witch of the North, and that there were Four, not three, great witches in Oz. Only readers and people who saw The Wiz know that now.

I think it would be a shameful matter if the popular notion of Gandalf became fixed as something just shy of a lackey to Galadriel, as much as I love her character. I hope that they do not push things any further in that direction, nor make it seem as though Galadriel is such a powerhouse as to easily overwhelm any of the Wizards, or make them unecessary or irrelevant subordinate figures.

In Reply To
A bit dramatic, isn't it Cool But I guess one becomes like this after going through fire, water, death and the hands of the White Lady Blush

I guess, those of us who disagree with you can ask you the same questions. How do you know that people will get the wrong picture when several people here seem to have interpreted the scene in a totally diferent way than what you fear? And have talked to people without deeper knowledge who also did not feel like you?

So we all know people who know people who thought whatever we thought. Noone is more right after that, I guess.

And although you will probably burn me on all the stakes of Middle-earth for this: If there should be some regular moviegoer out there who thinks exactly like you fear, believing that Galadriel is the lady superior to poor old Gandalf and is never proven otherwise because he does not care for the lore outside of the movies... then... and now comes what signs my death sentence... will this not dimish the lore, the books or the movies in any way to those who do care and know. Neither will it dimish it for the guy who just enjoyed (or hated) the movie but couldn't care less about the legendarium. For a regular non-Tolkien-fan moviegoer this is not a gamechanger, in whatever way they interpret the scene. For this, Gandalf's role simply is too large and highlighted compared to Galadriel.

In the handling of Galadriel/Gandalf I have certainly not seen anything yet that would call for a plea to PJ, PB and FW. Because, even without any further knowledge, I simply did not see a superior and an inferior, but two being that do care deeply for another, one of them being the great guy who has sacrificed everything he has in all the movies we have met him so far, for the greater good. And that is what counts, also in Tolkien's spirit imho.


And yes, I call myself a massive Tolkien fan and lore freak ;)


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


TheSexyBeard
Lorien


May 3 2013, 10:28pm


Views: 2863
Same here

To me, the way Galadriel is introduced is to fool the audience into thinking she's the one in charge until Saruman in revealed. I also felt she came across supportive and encouraging towards Gandalf rather than superior. I seriously don't get where Gandalf being everyone's subordinate is coming from.

Yes, my username is terrible.


Na Vedui
Rohan

May 4 2013, 12:12am


Views: 2839
Subtexts - and teamwork

I think I read the scene pretty much as you did, Silverlode, with regard to the subtexts going on underneath - possibly excepting Elrond, which I saw more as just a hasty "look out, Gandalf, we've got visitors!" so that Gandalf didn't face them entirely unprepared. But you may be right, and poor Elrond has had his ear bent already about "*** Gandalf doing his own thing again" etc etc.!

And I did see the Galadriel-first as a bit of dramatic misdirection, especially for people who know Galadriel and Saruman already, from LOTR (films or the book). If you know about the White Council too, it goes like "Galadriel? well, that's ok, she and Gandalf generally see eye to eye, so what's Elrond fussed about?... ah, wait a minute, does that also mean..? Oh yikes, yes, he's here as well; this is going to be a difficult meeting..."

Also: Regardless of any ultimate hierarchy, all the members of the White Council are answerable to the other Council members for any action of theirs which may rock the Council boat. It's like being part of a project team at work, you are responsible to the team for your actions(good or bad) in respect of that project and its agreed aims - even if some members of the project team are on a less senior level than you or even subordinate to you in the management structure. That's how I read Gandalf's relationship with the other three - mutual answerability (the project being guardianship of Middle-earth) - and maybe even people who don't know the intricacies of Maiar and Elves will have workplace experience to help them read it that way.


There&ThereAgain
Rohan


May 4 2013, 12:17am


Views: 2838
Your argument doesn't work at all

Because the Marvel films are not faithful to the comic books in anyway whatsoever. They are actually a whole new universe sprung from some iconic moments, classic characters and new ideas.

I'm pretty sure PJ has earned his stripes. I mean he is a HUGE fan although there are people who are probably bigger Middle-Earth fans (Christopher Lee). It's not like he's JJ Abrams who didn't even LIKE Star Trek before directing TWO Star Trek films.

"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas

(This post was edited by There&ThereAgain on May 4 2013, 12:18am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 4 2013, 12:39am


Views: 2835
Yet how much of that is because you already knew better, and your foreknowledge informed your perception and interpretation?

Consider, however, the casual observer. Starting with the "it is not me to whom you must answer,". Yes, we know this is a head fake once we see Saruman, and in part that is informed by our "but Galadriel isn't in command of Gandalf," inside knowledge. For casual observers though, there is nothing clarifying that he isn't answerable to both of them, and the film makers hold out that possibility far longer than they should.

Coming to it cold and without foreknowledge (you admit that yu already have some knowledge, I think, and certainly you have been favourable to the interpretations in most regards) it could all too easily seem that way.

In Reply To
What I saw was affection and respect between them (and that they were on the same wavelength), but certainly no indication that Gandalf was in some way subordinate to Galadriel and I've seen the film at least 20 times.

Not sure why these differences in perception arise.


In Reply To
In the handling of Galadriel/Gandalf I have certainly not seen anything yet that would call for a plea to PJ, PB and FW. Because, even without any further knowledge, I simply did not see a superior and an inferior, but two being that do care deeply for another, one of them being the great guy who has sacrificed everything he has in all the movies we have met him so far, for the greater good. And that is what counts, also in Tolkien's spirit imho.


And yes, I call myself a massive Tolkien fan and lore freak ;)



"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 4 2013, 3:05am


Views: 2834
Eh....

I'm sorry to say that my reaction to some nameless person forever going through life misunderstanding the true relationships of the White Council is simply this: So what? If they never get around to reading the books, or (if reading is not their thing) joining a fan group where they might be corrected, then likely this story and all its multitudinous details simply don't mean enough to them to make a little misunderstanding a problem. Those who want to know will find out. Those who don't care, won't....and it won't matter at all, because it's not part of their life. The world will not end. Nothing will be damaged. Tolkien's reputation won't falter in the slightest, because these people will either have enjoyed the story enough to be a casual fan and therefore appreciative of him in spite of what they do not know, or they didn't really like the story in which case this particular misunderstanding will be absorbed in their general indifference. I don't believe for a second that anyone but a died-in-the-wool fan is going to dislike this story on account of the relational dynamics in one scene.

The only people this matters to are here, and in places like this. And anyone who comes here will find out, not only this, but all kinds of stuff they didn't know before. Call me NARF, but much as I truly love these stories and the world of Middle-earth (enough to be here daily for 13 years now!), I do not worship them or think it is healthy that anyone should, and the fact that not everyone shares my liking for them doesn't bother me at all.

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 4 2013, 3:34am


Views: 2818
That last bit

of Elrond's subtext is optional, depending on the eye of the beholder. But it seems to me that the disapproval in his glance is a little too much for just the fact that Saruman is upset - something has happened to incur Elrond's disapproval too. Let's look at the progression of events:

Gandalf shows up with a bunch of dwarves, having led orcs/goblins right up to one of the entrances of Rivendell, and is greeted cheerfully and in a friendly manner by Elrond. Not too long after, Elrond finds out what the dwarves are up to. I don't get the sense in the map reading scene that Elrond is personally immediately opposed to the idea, he merely says that "Some would not deem it wise", not "I do not think it wise". Who, then, deems it not wise? When Galadriel hears about it, she doesn't seem horrified; she's much more worried about the Necromancer, and even seems amused at the dwarves' secret getaway. Must be Saruman. Somewhere between those two scenes with Elrond, an indignant Saruman has showed up, being angry enough to travel all the way from Isengard to chew Gandalf out about his machinations, and Elrond knows what he's steamed up about, which means he's already had an earful. That's how I see both Elrond's tone in the line about guardians, and also the touch of ironic amusement I fancy I see in his face when Gandalf is greeting Galadriel and gets blindsided by Saruman's presence. In fact, not telling Gandalf just whom to expect may be Elrond getting a little gentle revenge...and if that's not the act of a friend and equal, I don't know what is. Wink

And of course, this brings up an interesting question. If neither Elrond nor Galadriel knew what Gandalf was planning, and Radagast has only talked to Gandalf, then just what did Saruman hear that sent him storming up to Rivendell for an impromptu meeting, and how did he hear it? And it has to be an unscheduled meeting, or Gandalf would have expected to see him there, as well as Galadriel. Azog's not the only one with surprisingly good intelligence on the location and aims of Thorin and company.



Quote
The only one I saw a little differently was Elrond. I didn't see that last sentence.


Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Darkstone
Immortal


May 4 2013, 3:53am


Views: 2831
Narf!

Yep, some of us just ain't as real fans as some others.

I may not be a real fan, but I'm proud to be Narf!!

We few, we narfy few,
We band of brothers (and sisters);
For he (and she) that reads LOTR
Shall be my brother (or sister); be he (or she) ne'er so vile,
That act shall gentle his (or her) condition:
And gentlemen (and gentlewomen) now immersed in Stephenie Meyer
Shall think themselves accursed they were not there,
With those who have read LOTR!

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.



(This post was edited by Darkstone on May 4 2013, 3:56am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 4 2013, 5:21am


Views: 2811
One person, perhaps. Millions of them. . . another matter. The notion

of the general banter (and we all know what banter sounds like amongst quasi fans. . . those who have seen all the movies in this or that cosmology, but are not steeped in the original books, comics etc., or the subsequent works) concerning Gandalf long being set in certain circles as, "the least ranking member of The Wizards and Elves Council," or people sagely telling their friends about how, "Gandalf was like Galadriel's special helper, and she directed him to investigate. . . ", or potential general talk of how much more powerful Galadriel was than the Wizards, or versus banter of how she would easily have defeated The Balrog. . . yuuuuuua. . . crikey. . . it gives me the rickets and shivers.


I don't mind people not being all that interested in the story. I do mind people who are interested, if only on a surface level, having all the wrong information. I can certainly live with it, but I would rather it not turn out that way.

In Reply To
I'm sorry to say that my reaction to some nameless person forever going through life misunderstanding the true relationships of the White Council is simply this: So what? If they never get around to reading the books, or (if reading is not their thing) joining a fan group where they might be corrected, then likely this story and all its multitudinous details simply don't mean enough to them to make a little misunderstanding a problem. Those who want to know will find out. Those who don't care, won't....and it won't matter at all, because it's not part of their life. The world will not end. Nothing will be damaged. Tolkien's reputation won't falter in the slightest, because these people will either have enjoyed the story enough to be a casual fan and therefore appreciative of him in spite of what they do not know, or they didn't really like the story in which case this particular misunderstanding will be absorbed in their general indifference. I don't believe for a second that anyone but a died-in-the-wool fan is going to dislike this story on account of the relational dynamics in one scene.

The only people this matters to are here, and in places like this. And anyone who comes here will find out, not only this, but all kinds of stuff they didn't know before. Call me NARF, but much as I truly love these stories and the world of Middle-earth (enough to be here daily for 13 years now!), I do not worship them or think it is healthy that anyone should, and the fact that not everyone shares my liking for them doesn't bother me at all.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 4 2013, 5:25am


Views: 2803
And yet the joke is on Elrond, for Gandalf was, if we read it that way, clearly a step if not three

ahead of him. . . and of the audience. He had already set a plan in motion that would foil Saruman, and surprise Elrond and Galadriel alike. Though what it would foil Saruman from doing, I am not sure. How exactly did he intend to halt a belligerent Throin, short of force, which he wasn't supposed to use in that way for such a purpose.

In Reply To
of Elrond's subtext is optional, depending on the eye of the beholder. But it seems to me that the disapproval in his glance is a little too much for just the fact that Saruman is upset - something has happened to incur Elrond's disapproval too. Let's look at the progression of events:

Gandalf shows up with a bunch of dwarves, having led orcs/goblins right up to one of the entrances of Rivendell, and is greeted cheerfully and in a friendly manner by Elrond. Not too long after, Elrond finds out what the dwarves are up to. I don't get the sense in the map reading scene that Elrond is personally immediately opposed to the idea, he merely says that "Some would not deem it wise", not "I do not think it wise". Who, then, deems it not wise? When Galadriel hears about it, she doesn't seem horrified; she's much more worried about the Necromancer, and even seems amused at the dwarves' secret getaway. Must be Saruman. Somewhere between those two scenes with Elrond, an indignant Saruman has showed up, being angry enough to travel all the way from Isengard to chew Gandalf out about his machinations, and Elrond knows what he's steamed up about, which means he's already had an earful. That's how I see both Elrond's tone in the line about guardians, and also the touch of ironic amusement I fancy I see in his face when Gandalf is greeting Galadriel and gets blindsided by Saruman's presence. In fact, not telling Gandalf just whom to expect may be Elrond getting a little gentle revenge...and if that's not the act of a friend and equal, I don't know what is. Wink

And of course, this brings up an interesting question. If neither Elrond nor Galadriel knew what Gandalf was planning, and Radagast has only talked to Gandalf, then just what did Saruman hear that sent him storming up to Rivendell for an impromptu meeting, and how did he hear it? And it has to be an unscheduled meeting, or Gandalf would have expected to see him there, as well as Galadriel. Azog's not the only one with surprisingly good intelligence on the location and aims of Thorin and company.



Quote
The only one I saw a little differently was Elrond. I didn't see that last sentence.



"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


elaen32
Gondor

May 4 2013, 7:14am


Views: 2780
I agree wholeheartedly, Silverlode

I was going to post something to similar effect, then saw your post, which was more eloquent than I might have managed at present.
I do think that Galadriel appears to be the superior, but only momentarily until Saruman is revealed. After that, she appears Gandalf's equal, at best,imo. On greeting her, Gandalf bows to her as a matter of etiquette, since she is a ruler of her people. In RotK, Gandalf bows his head to Aragorn on the battle field after the Battle of Pelennor Fields in a similar manner, acknowledging him as king, not as Gandalf's superior. Going back to the WC, after the meeting, Galadriel comes over as sympathetic and supportive, rather than superior. I always like to think that she knew him as Olorin in Aman and now feels pity seeing such a great spirit suffering the privations of the body of an old Man. I realise that the casual fan will be unaware of this sort of back story, but I think these films are for all to enjoy at their own level. And if they don't realise the true hierarchy of the WC, as you say, the world is not going to end.

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Arannir
Valinor

May 4 2013, 8:18am


Views: 2785
The millions seem unlikely...

... as A LOT of people apparantly do not even get the understanding of the superior thing that you fear. Those conversation among "quasi-fans" as you call them seem really a bit hyperbole to me. I have yet to meet anyone who spend much time on thinking about the hierarchy of Middle-earth after watching AUJ.

You seem to totally ignore all arguments made in that direction.

Other than that I fully agree with Silverlode.

___

A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 4 2013, 11:43am


Views: 2223
It would seem that some have decided that the perception is not there to be read, and are gping to willfully

ignore it unless and until it becomes a matter too extreme to be capable of being ignored ( I suppose her telepathicly messaging him with a threat to confiscate his wand if he doesn't investigate Dol Guldur MIGHT do it, though I thankfully doubt anything as obnoxious as bit of true hyperbole would take place in these films).

I have been, and remain, one of the great, steadfast supporters of this movie. I thought it was a great movie, despite a fair number of flaws, most of which dealt in major deviances that did not play as well as the actual recorded events would have. The implication, even ambiguously, that Gandalf is some manner of underling within the Council, especially in regards to Galadriel as opposed to soley Saruman, is one of those flaws. It is not something solely imagined by us defenders of The Gray Messenger, especially since several major critics (remember all those reviews all of us were reading ere the movie released), including some of the more positive ones, specifically stated that Gandalf was "clearly" an inferior at the council, surrounded by his "higher ups and mentors" (mentors . . . wth? He isn't Saruman's apprentice, and he certainly isn't Elrond or Galadriel's! Faramir may be a "Wizard's pupil", but Gandalf simply IS a Wizard).

So, whether some amongst us acknowledge it or not, that perception IS out there, and not just amongst anecdotal encounters I and other members have had with more casual fans of the films, but also amongst some of the critics writing widely puplicized views of the films.

I generally loved this movie, but I didn't love seeing Gandalf, who specifically refused to head The Council EXACTLY because he was unwilling to be anserable to a committee outside of Eru and The Valar who had sent him, portrayed as being expressly answerable.

As to the power balance between himself and Galadriel. . . no one is asking that Gandalf go Arnold/Bruce/Sylvester on Dol Guldur, nor that Galadriel not be displayed as the majestic and powerful being she is. Merely that The Great Wizard and disguised Holy Spirit Gandalf not be badly shown up.

In Reply To
... as A LOT of people apparantly do not even get the understanding of the superior thing that you fear. Those conversation among "quasi-fans" as you call them seem really a bit hyperbole to me. I have yet to meet anyone who spend much time on thinking about the hierarchy of Middle-earth after watching AUJ.

You seem to totally ignore all arguments made in that direction.

Other than that I fully agree with Silverlode.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on May 4 2013, 11:46am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 4 2013, 12:02pm


Views: 2189
I think the second half of the scene was lovely, and I read it in the same aspect

as you did. However, I think the tone for the first part had the potential effect of seeming like a fond but superior officer giving instruction to a subordinate, in no small part because of the shadow cast on it by the method of earlier introductory interaction.

As to the last bit, no the world will not end, but it will rankle some of us none the less if the mass perception of Gandalf is as an underling to The Elves, just as I am sure some would be rankled had Aragorn been portrayed as, say, a vassal of King Brand of Northern Rhovanion, or if Galadriel and Elrond were implied to be vassals of King Thranduil. Say Thranduil were to have a scene with Elrond and Galadriel both doing a slight courtsey and greeting him as, "Your Majesty," (not explicitly speaking misinformation about him being their sovereign, per se, but just the ambiguous implications) with no further explanation other than the film portraying him as King of The Elves. I do not doubt there would be some bitter comments spoken.

In Reply To
I was going to post something to similar effect, then saw your post, which was more eloquent than I might have managed at present.
I do think that Galadriel appears to be the superior, but only momentarily until Saruman is revealed. After that, she appears Gandalf's equal, at best,imo. On greeting her, Gandalf bows to her as a matter of etiquette, since she is a ruler of her people. In RotK, Gandalf bows his head to Aragorn on the battle field after the Battle of Pelennor Fields in a similar manner, acknowledging him as king, not as Gandalf's superior. Going back to the WC, after the meeting, Galadriel comes over as sympathetic and supportive, rather than superior. I always like to think that she knew him as Olorin in Aman and now feels pity seeing such a great spirit suffering the privations of the body of an old Man. I realise that the casual fan will be unaware of this sort of back story, but I think these films are for all to enjoy at their own level. And if they don't realise the true hierarchy of the WC, as you say, the world is not going to end.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Arannir
Valinor

May 4 2013, 12:48pm


Views: 2188
well, I guess again we will agree to disagree...

... when it comes to this discussion. I am simply not convinced on the mass confusion of millions harming the legendarium.

But I do not want to go in circles ;) good discussion nevertheless.

___

A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


Darkstone
Immortal


May 4 2013, 3:19pm


Views: 2188
You caught us!

Yep, some of us are being willfully obtuse just to annoy you. It's not like we simply have honest opinions that are different than yours!

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.



Bombadil
Half-elven


May 4 2013, 4:32pm


Views: 2165
Bomby izz Withholding any comments until...

The EE comes out...since just about every Great scene told

"Will have some sorta...embellishment?"

Quoting Gandalf..
Didn't this Meeting Take All night and into the Morning?

On Bomby's 5 viewing
it seemed like
A "HighLight" reel..


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


May 5 2013, 9:18pm


Views: 2120
Bombadil being a Maia

Maybe, but how do you explain Bombadil's immunity to the effects of the Ring? That's not a typical trait of one of the Maiar - in fact, it's a trait that seems to be peculiar to Bombadil alone.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 6 2013, 12:09am


Views: 2108
Not to annoy me, and not for having a different opinion. Yet, it is one thing to say "I did not perceive the scene thus,"

it is quite another to say that it is unlikely that anyone could or would perceive it thus, especially when there is evidence that a good number of people perceived it in exactly that way. The willfulness is not so much a matter of annoying me, as it seems of a determination that there are no problems, on any level and from any reasonable assesment, with a potentially misleading scene (terribly misleading if read in a certain light).

In Reply To
Yep, some of us are being willfully obtuse just to annoy you. It's not like we simply have honest opinions that are different than yours!


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 6 2013, 12:15am


Views: 2099
We don't see very many Maiar with the Ring, other than The Wizards who are burdned by

some of the shortcomings of the forms they have assumed. I doubt that the Ring would have had the same effect on a liberated Olorin in the fullness of his Power and Vision that it had on him in the more cumbersome trappings of his Gandalf costume, or that it would have dominated Melain, or Uinen, Osse or Eonwye`, yet we never see it come into such hands, i.e., unrestrained hands of the same connatrual power as Sauron. Also there is Bombadil's nature to consider. It is possible that he had no more interest in Rings and Towers than did Shelob. That must be accounted for.

In Reply To
Maybe, but how do you explain Bombadil's immunity to the effects of the Ring? That's not a typical trait of one of the Maiar - in fact, it's a trait that seems to be peculiar to Bombadil alone.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 6 2013, 1:49am


Views: 2107
I perceive the situation this way:

Gandalf is being genuinely humble.

In the UT passage Darkstone quoted above: "But Olrin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron." it is his nature to be humble. Further, the Istari were specifically, "coming in shapes weak and humble ... bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to do good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt."

Gandalf is doing what he was asked to do, and in a manner consistent with his underlying personality. Galadriel sees what's going on, and Elrond may. Saruman, however, has long since discarded the "weak and humble" directive and is being an arrogant jerk, which is his nature.

Sure, some people in the audience will accept all this at face value. But I think it's very likely that Gandalf will come through ok.








Elwen
Lorien


May 7 2013, 6:03pm


Views: 2037
There is a hint of humor there isn't there?


In Reply To
In fact, not telling Gandalf just whom to expect may be Elrond getting a little gentle revenge...and if that's not the act of a friend and equal, I don't know what is. Wink




I totally agree with that sentiment.

Before kids, exercising with LOTR meant listening to the soundtrack while I ran.

After kids, exercising with LOTR means having an all out dance party with the little ones to the "Break the Dam Release the River" disco mix form the Lego game.


Elenorflower
Gondor


May 9 2013, 12:06pm


Views: 2099
agreed

I would happily sacrifice 90% of the jiggery pokery for a faithful version.