May 2 2013, 2:54pm
Remind me when they were attacked the first time?
looong replies - more about Círdan and the flooding, Celegorm, Caranthir and Curufin, Gil-galad, Dior's aging, etc.
I probably wasn't clear enough. If so, I apologise.
What I've meant was that many of the Elves at Sirion's Mouth were surviors of the attack on Doriath, so therefore were personally attacked twice. Which only goes to show that the attack on the refuge of the Sirion Mouths did not alienate that many of the Eldar from the Feanorians - as these probably hated them already.
Ahh, okay, I see what you meant now. That's right. Well, in that case they definitely wouldn't have had enough contact with them to hear about the fate of the twins - unless someone not allied with the Feanorians got wind of the twins being carried off by them and told everyone about it, OR they actually tried to use them somehow and made the knowledge public that way. Perhaps - and this is coming to me as I write it, so it may not be thought through - to bargain for the Silmaril with them, not knowing Elwing had cast herself into the sea! Because honestly, how would they know that? She could have just fled with other Elves, who would be hiding her, so it may have seemed like it was worth a try to blackmail her using her sons. Then, other Elves would have told M&M that they had genuinely lost her, and so later when they see the Silmaril as the star Eärendil that's how they could be so certain as to what it was?
As for the Feanorians, of course they had followers, but if even Celegorm, Caranthir and Curufin died in the sack of Doriath, then I don't think an enormous amount of those would have survived. (The leader's always the last to die, right?)
Not an enormous amount, of course; but I still guess more than any other enclave of surviving Elves.
And what a thought, the one about the leaders! They usually are (supposed to, in heroic tales) in the front! Remember how Feanor died? Or even Orodreth? I am pretty sure that's what happened to the sons of Feanor.
I did actually think of that after I posted it, they don't really command from the rear so much as literally lead the armies into battle. But I'm thinking it's possible that CC&C kept themselves out of the fight a little more. They were never THAT eager to actually bother with fulfilling the oath - certainly they kept it in mind, but as long as they had their own realms to rule they were quite content to sit it out. (There is a quote about that somewhere, I think in the chapter where it's explained how the different realms are distributed *eyes on bookshelf*) I guess Maedhros had already lost his hand and probably part of his sanity, might as well let him take the rest of the suffering, he's the eldest anyway... heh, I don't have a great opinion of those three. ;) Point being, I don't see them rushing into battle as happily as Feanor or Maedhros (or Fingolfin, or Fingon, for that matter) so they might survive a battle unless it's a terrible one in which also too many of their followers die to keep protecting them. Not sure I'm defending this point but it's worth considering that not all the Feanorians were as valiant as their dad. xD
also Ereinion, he wasn't that old with either parentage?
Not really; he was older than Dior was, when he married, had children, and claimed the throne of Doriath.
Unless being a half-human, his biology was very different from that of Elves, in which case you can't cite him as proof. I remember JRRT wrote about the aging of Elves, but I'm not sure whether he referred to Dior.
I kind of assume Dior must have aged more like a man (didn't Eärendil, too?) to be able to take up the throne at such a young age. He was 34... if he aged like an Elf he would have been barely more than a child?
Although, to think of him as a gilded child-monarch, a little like Tutankhamun, is quite intriguing. But as you said, he had a wife and kids, so... nah. lol
In any case... what was my original point with this? Oh yeah, Ereinion being raised during this confusing time while Elves were just hiding out at Sirion and Balar but didn't know what to do with themselves, and how that would shape him as a person. Leading to the other thing you replied to...
Also, there must have been very few Noldor left at the end of the First Age, so did Ereinion actually act upon his inherited position?
My answer would be no. But your idea is nicer, nd more heroic; perhaps it is what would really have "happened", had JRRT ever got around to write about this.
I feel like he may have thought "So I'm supposed to be king... but king of what?"
If that was the case, then Feanorians may have found the lack of an active king of the Noldor interesting, if anyone still had in mind to put Maedhros in that position. Assuming he'd want to, but I doubt he even wanted to go on LIVING at that point, let alone be king after all. But SOMEONE might have suggested it in absence of any action by Ereinion. And then when he got to be king in Lindon, AFTER the WoW of course, people would have been extremely relieved to finally be under an established leader again after so much time of uncertainty. And I think he'd be very liberal (I imagine Círdan as a very liberal kind of person, who would have passed that attitude over to his charge) and try to do everything just right, to make up for the other flaws of his family that basically led to the destruction of Beleriand which (I think) he felt responsible for.
I suppose the Host of the Valar marched with the sea following them, sweeping everything evil (and everything else) away as they went, until they crossed the Blue Mountains, by which time they must have finally captured Melkor and Sauron and killed "all" their creatures; enough to stop flooding at least.
I am pretty sure it was not a premeditated action by the Host of the Valar. None of the chief Valar actually participated in this battle, and I'm sure Eonwe could not cause these tumults, far less control them at will. I suspect this was Morgoth's defense once his armed forces failed, rather than get out and fight. If so, it was probably counter-productive - many of his own armies must have perished (after all, they overran Beleriand), the non-winged dragons must have suffered, and Angband itself might have become isolated from the mainland. Powerful cowards may cause themselves more damage than their enemies ever could.
I see it a bit differently - my idea of it is that every few hundred miles, Eonwe would have called to Ulmo to move a little further forward, having had this instruction from the Valar before he even left for Middle Earth. I imagine it a little like the flooding of Isengard - with furnaces and volcanoes steaming as they are extinguished and Orcs and Wargs fleeing from the water and its cleansing, sacred power (as neither Sauron nor Melkor ever laid any claim on the seas, they were in a way the only untainted part of Middle Earth then.) It's like the Valar going "Well, Beleriand was nice, but now it's all screwed up, so let's forget about this part and start somewhere else. Let's pretend it never happened."
Were they packed into ships that rarely landed, because the shoreline kept changing all the time anyway?
I guess they just sailed East.
But many Elves stayed behind, such as Círdan's Teleri and many Noldor, Silvan and Nandor Elves that eventually stayed at the Grey Havens, Lindon, Hollin, Greenwood... after all, Gildor says he's descended from Finrod Felagund (and how I love the idea of Gildor being a Noldor/Nandor cross, I'm not sure why, he just comes across to me that way. And I think he and Glorfindel don't like each other. But that's random. ;)) So those Elves must have stayed somewhere, but 40-odd years isn't really a decent kind of time-frame. You wouldn't build up cities as you crossed Beleriand fleeing from the sea, nor would you travel all the way to Eregion in one go - you'd go slowly, trying to settle here and there, before getting flooded again and moving on. So I think some did that, living in encampments for decades, literally displaced people, and others (probably Círdan's people) would not have bothered even landing for long after it became clear that the water would just keep rising anyway, and get aboard their own ships or be accepted on the ships of the Valinor Teleri (being their kin - some might even know each other and get reunited after literally millions of years of being apart! That's interesting!)
Perhaps in the end, Eonwe would have revealed to all the Elves that the Valar's will had been done and they had now arrived in Eregion and they could live there if they wanted to, but also recommended coming back to Valinor. And then they might have built the Grey Havens out of what would previously have been a provisional harbour.
Bonus question: is there any chance Elrond and Elros actually met and spoke to Eärendil during or after the War of Wrath, or did he just pass over everyone in his ship like a thing of legend rather than someone who had once simply been "Ada"?
Hardly any chance. How would this come about?
I wrote about how I imagine this meeting somewhere else in this thread... :)
And that's assuming that he hovered over the entire army (which, I guess, is a combination of the Beleriand Elves - leftover Noldor, Cirdan's Teleri, Doriath, Gondolin and Nargothrond refugees, and any stray Nandor) with his ship, never touching the ground, but lighting the way for everyone and blinding the orcs, wolves, balrogs, etc. that crossed their path, thus making them easier to find and defeat. After the end of the war, I imagined this scene where the twins and Eonwe would stand on a mountaintop or cliff, and Earendil bring Vingilot down to them and talk to them that way - never actually touching the floor. (I think that's a pretty cool image, too, shiny ship with the sea in the background and bewildered twins.. *__*) Mostly he'd talk about the choice between Men and Elves they could make, but I like to think it could be emotional, too. Then Eonwe would be right there with them to advise them on what exactly their choice would entail, and to take back the message of what they chose to the Valar. I'd actually love to write that scene (and at the same time describe many Elves camping by the seashore and on countless ships, exhausted from decades of travelling and war and confused as to whether they'll have to move again) but I think I couldn't get the language right. v.v
(This post was edited by Altaira on Jun 7 2013, 4:00am)