The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
need help filling in some blanks please (First Age, Elros, Elrond, Gil-galad, etc.)



erynion
Lorien

Apr 29 2013, 5:32pm


Views: 5115
need help filling in some blanks please (First Age, Elros, Elrond, Gil-galad, etc.)

(FYI, I'm taking dates from the lotrproject.com timeline because I saw the guy who makes the site at HobbitCon and he was awesome, if those are not correct, I don't know any better, so please tell me :) But regardless of the precise dates, my question will still work.)

My problem starts in the First Age..

FA 0534 - Eärendil begins his great voyages in the search for Valinor.
0542 - Eärendil and Elwing arrive in Valinor and ask the Valar for aid the fight against Morgoth.0545 - The host of the Valar arrives in Beleriand and the War of Wrath begins.
0587 - The War of Wrath ends. Morgoth is defeated and most parts of Belerian has sunk into the sea.
0590
- Morgoth is cast into the Void.
SA 0032 - The Edain and a few Drúedain reach Númenor and Elros is crowned first King of Númenor.

..and ends early into the Second Age, right there.

What I'm interested in is the whereabouts of several individuals during this 88 year time window.

First off, I'd like to know about Elrond and Elros. We know they were born in Arvernien, and I suppose Eärendil left them with Elwing at the Havens of Sirion (?) when he went to seek Valinor. But she casts herself into the sea and before we know it the twins are being taken in by Maedhros and Maglor. That's the last we see of them until they're given the choice between death and immortality after the War of Wrath - a whole 48 years later. What did they do inbetween?

What confuses me is that it's said they were raised by the Sons of Fëanor, but I don't quite understand how that works. Surely Maedhros and Maglor lived secluded from all the other Elves that were left in Middle Earth, seeing as they had repeatedly attacked them for the Silmarils. So then how could the twins become integrated with the exiles of Beleriand? None of the Elves at the Havens would have welcomed the Fëanorians or hear any news from them, so chances are they thought Elrond and Elros were dead. But these would be childhood friends of Elwing's from Doriath and Eärendil's from Gondolin, people who would be interested in the wellbeing of these children. Didn't they look for them? Would they welcome them if they came to them at the Isle of Balar (or anywhere else - were there any Elven settlements anywhere but Balar after the attack on Sirion?) or would they mistrust them for having been raised by the Sons of Fëanor?

Personally, I imagine that Elrond and Elros would have ended up with Círdan on the Isle of Balar. This makes sense because the impression is repeatedly given that the Isle of Balar was a last resort, a shelter for injured, traumatized and homeless Elves, and of course lastly a safe haven for everyone when Beleriand was overrun by the enemy completely. But such a place would be ideal for both the twins' future "professions": Elrond's as a healer as he could have had ample chance to learn to tend to sick and injured people, and Elros' as a Númenorian, as he would have learned much about seafaring there and I feel that's rather a requirement for becoming King of Númenor.

Mentioning Círdan also brings me to my next question - Gil-galad. It says that his father (be it Fingon or Orodreth) sent him to stay with Círdan to be safe, and that he became High King of the Noldor after the Fall of Gondolin. But the Noldor would have been without a king for a very long time already, seeing as they never heard from Turgon. Also, there must have been very few Noldor left at the end of the First Age, so did Ereinion actually act upon his inherited position? I assume he lead the Noldor in the War of Wrath and did some great (unwritten?) deeds that earned him the name Gil-galad (as that, I think, is a name that needs to be earned rather than just given "because he is king.") But is it not possible that he was a little like Aragorn, in the care of Círdan and his mother (assuming she went with him) and patiently waiting and training until the time when it would be appropriate for him to act as king? If so, would that not be much later, when Lindon was being established as a kingdom?

And lastly, my question concerns the flooding of Beleriand. I suppose the Host of the Valar marched with the sea following them, sweeping everything evil (and everything else) away as they went, until they crossed the Blue Mountains, by which time they must have finally captured Melkor and Sauron and killed "all" their creatures; enough to stop flooding at least. But what did the other Elves do? Did everyone march? Surely not women and children. Were they packed into ships that rarely landed, because the shoreline kept changing all the time anyway? Was it a "Noah's Ark" (or "Waterworld" XD) scenario in which the Elves just sailed East until finally they felt safe enough at the Grey Havens to make a settlement, having watched that shore for a decade or so and decided it wasn't going to move up any further?


Bonus question: is there any chance Elrond and Elros actually met and spoke to Eärendil during or after the War of Wrath, or did he just pass over everyone in his ship like a thing of legend rather than someone who had once simply been "Ada"? I suppose they must have learned of the choice they could make somehow.


If anyone could provide me with Tolkien canon (however contradictory ;)) and own opinions I'd love to discuss these things!


(This post was edited by erynion on Apr 29 2013, 5:35pm)


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Apr 29 2013, 7:00pm


Views: 4470
Hi erynion.

I have moved your post to the Reading Room because, given the detailed nature of your questions, I think you'll get more responses among the RR's regulars.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


erynion
Lorien

Apr 29 2013, 7:07pm


Views: 4459
sure thing, thank you!

the reading room intimidated me a little, I didn't want to presume I knew enough xD But Thanks!


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 29 2013, 7:13pm


Views: 4401
Wonderfully engaging post

I'm afraid I can only offer opinions and can't cite any text references. Your answers to your own questions are very well-reasoned, and those are conclusions I arrive at also.

1. Elrond and Elros are raised by Cirdan, or next of kin (they're related to everyone), on Balar. Did they see their father again during or after the War of Wrath? Sometimes it seems like parents should have reunions with their children in Tolkien's world, but they often don't. While it would seem logical, I wouldn't bet on it.

2. I think the title of High King of the Noldor was empty under Turgon. Gondolin was strong, but almost as isolated from the other Noldor in Beleriand as Valinor was, so Finarfin might as well have been their king too. Turgon was certainly not sending out royal spokesmen to convey his edicts to the rest of the Noldor, and with Finarfin's house largely wiped out, and the Sons of Feanor acting independently most of the time, it just held no weight. When Ereinion took the title, I think it was mostly symbolic. Did Cirdan and Gil-Galad co-rule Balar? Hard to say. Maybe when Ereinion was still youthful, he deferred to Cirdan, but once they were established at Lindon, Gil-Galad seems to have the greater authority, and maybe Cirdan mentored him for that position as Elrond groomed Aragorn.

There were still enough Noldor left after the war to make a sizable colony in Hollin and make up a substantial part of the population at Lindon. A few thousand, maybe? By then Galadriel was ruling only Sylvan Elves in Lorien. She didn't seem to lay claim to rule the surviving Noldor from the realms of her brothers. With the Sons of Feanor gone, Gil-Galad could assert control over all the remaining Noldor from all three houses in a way that he couldn't while the Sons were still alive, so the War of Wrath resulted in him having more Noldorin followers than before. Did he get his title from fighting in the War of Wrath? I would guess so, but I always wonder myself.

3. I'm never sure what to make of the details of the drowning of Beleriand. I get the sense that this is a Clash of the Titans and beyond mortal comprehension, so whatever happened, I'm not sure it could be explained in practical terms of where people went and how they survived. Valid question, I just don't know that we could get answers.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 29 2013, 7:15pm


Views: 4416
Someday I hope we'll outgrow our reputation for intimidation. :)

We mostly just like talking about Tolkien, and some know more, some know less, but I hope everyone feels welcome to jump in. As long as you know what a Baggins is, you know enough.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 29 2013, 7:19pm


Views: 4393
As long as we have a reputation for scary...

I'm thinking we should get a couple pet Balrogs, or maybe swear a few rash oaths about newcomers.

Or we could make it really scary and sing Tra-la-la-lally once in a while.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Apr 29 2013, 7:26pm


Views: 4404
Noooooo! Anything but that!

Actually, singing some of Bombadil's songs would be more frightening...

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 29 2013, 7:31pm


Views: 4383
Hey, ho, tra-la-la-lally, Tom Bombadillo!

That should keep 'em away! Pirate

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 29 2013, 7:33pm


Views: 4374
LOL! Great ideas

With a welcome message saying, "Abandon all hope, ye who have not memorized the HoME series. You will be devoured."


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 29 2013, 7:34pm


Views: 4397
Yes, I don't think Tom had any real power over the Barrow Wight

It was just the lyrics of his "song" that drove the poor creature away. Fatty Lumpkin must have worn earplugs.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 29 2013, 7:35pm


Views: 4341
Oh, I quite like that...

I'll start painting right away!

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 29 2013, 7:50pm


Views: 4368
What's a "Baggins", precious? Is it tasty? Is it scrumptious? //

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 29 2013, 7:57pm


Views: 4347
Welcome to the Fellowship of the Room//

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 29 2013, 8:02pm


Views: 4385
Love your post erynion!

I can't do a ton of research right now (I'm at work, haha!) but in Letter #211 JRRT writes a bit about Elrond and Elros and infants: "Elrond and Elros, children of Earandil (sea-lover) and Elwing (Elf-foam) were so called, because they were carried off by the sons of Feanor, in the last act of the feud between the high-elven houses of the Noldorin princes concerning the Silmarils; the Silmaril rescued from Morgoth by Beren and Luthien , and given to King Thingol Luthien's father, had descended to Elwing dtr. of Dior, son of Luthien. The infants were not slain, but left like 'babes in the wood', in a cave with a fall of water over the entrance. There they were found: Elrond within the cave and Elros dabbling in the water."'

So this suggests that the infants being 'found' seems to indicate that someone with their interest in mind recovered them - obviously they remained unharmed. That the Feanorian sons are described as 'carrying them off' and then there is a 'finding' component, this implies that they are not one and the same. I am curious as to the timing and to the motive for hiding the children. Were they taken after Elwing followed Earandil, as revenge (it dies say 'feud'); in which case they were kidnapped from Noldor caretakers? Were they taken in an effort to blackmail the parents into returning to ME with the Silmaril, the Feanorian's not aware of the mission Earandil was undertaking, and that's why they were 'stashed' as it were, to be bargained for?

I found this passage quickly because I have been pondering its meaning myself since last week. Will look more into it later but also would like to see if anyone else can fill in the blanks.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 29 2013, 8:30pm


Views: 4362
Further thought

I very much like your Balar and Cirdan hypothesis. Adds another dimension to the departure at the Grey Havens, doesn't it? Can't wait to get home to my books to read a bit more.

And a warm (if belated) Welcome to the Reading Room! Seriously, we don't bite. Much. Wink Hahhaha. Nah we only nip, like ponies.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


elaen32
Gondor

Apr 29 2013, 8:46pm


Views: 4354
Nah..

there's a lot more "nipping" goes on on the Hobbit boards these days. Here it is much more civilised and there are even comfy chairs! And the odd glass of Old Winyard if one feels so inclined!Wink

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 29 2013, 9:13pm


Views: 4375
Maglor and the boys

My books also at home, but going from memory:

In the attack on Doriath, the servants of one of the Sons of Feanor left Elwing's brothers to die in the woods in apparent retaliation for the death of their master. That seemed motivation for Maglor to be protective of Elwing's sons to prevent a repeat in the attack on the Sirion refugee community, so he took in Elrond and Elros and sheltered them. Tolkien says something about some affection growing between the rescuer and the boys, "as little might be thought." It was my assumption that Maglor later turned them over to someone in the community, or maybe he kept them during the war and they left him afterwards???

It seems like the Tolkien letter you're citing has him later splitting that story in two with the two sets of brothers.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 29 2013, 9:15pm


Views: 4335
We should warn you, erynion, that it's possible to be eaten here by some of our hungry members. //

 


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 29 2013, 10:17pm


Views: 4307
This Letter puzzled me, that's why I had bookmarked it


In Reply To
My books also at home, but going from memory:

In the attack on Doriath, the servants of one of the Sons of Feanor left Elwing's brothers to die in the woods in apparent retaliation for the death of their master. That seemed motivation for Maglor to be protective of Elwing's sons to prevent a repeat in the attack on the Sirion refugee community, so he took in Elrond and Elros and sheltered them. Tolkien says something about some affection growing between the rescuer and the boys, "as little might be thought." It was my assumption that Maglor later turned them over to someone in the community, or maybe he kept them during the war and they left him afterwards???

It seems like the Tolkien letter you're citing has him later splitting that story in two with the two sets of brothers.




Yeah CG I am a bit confused by it. I can't quite make out the timing - after the attack on Doriath? and it seems odd that he used such a specific detail as what the babies were doing in a story not more fleshed out. (I am deeply impressed by your memory of the details here BTW.)

I am trying to remember too - did Maglor and Maehdros they raise them and tried to hide their deeds? It does seem like JRRT is implying TWO sets of Feanorian sons (he had enough) - one set to take the boys and someone who finds them - if they raise them, then it would seem that Maglor and Maehdros are the finders. As the original post states (such lovely detail) the next we would see of them is at the arrival of - I think - Eonwe the herald. (? digging deep here.) In which case they must have matured with Maehdros and Maglor. They must have been loved, by the way they both turn out. I would guess though that they never see their parents again.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 29 2013, 10:29pm


Views: 4356
You're rhythm is eerily Sauron-esque


Quote
one set to take the boys and someone who finds them

One nanny hugs them all and in the preschool minds them.


Which is not as sinister as Sauron, I'll grant you.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 29 2013, 11:28pm


Views: 4341
Now book is in hand

Ruin of Doriath: Celegorm stirs up his brothers to attack Dior in Menegroth and dies in battle with the latter. But Dior and his wife Nimloth are killed, and Celegorm's cruel servants "seized his young sons and left them to starve in the forest. Of this Maedhros indeed repented, and sought for them long..." but "of the fate of Elured and Elurin, no tale tells."

Then in the attack on the Sirion haven, "Maglor took pity on Elrond and Elros, and he cherished them, and love grew after between them, as little might be thought."

It sounds like they spent a fair amount of time with Maglor for that love to grow--it wouldn't be there at the start. Do you suppose the "cherished" meant he cherished them as his own children and raised them to adulthood?


Maciliel
Valinor


Apr 29 2013, 11:49pm


Views: 4319
geez...

 
"seized his young sons and left them to starve in the forest."

geez.... what the fingon?

for the edain, this is cruel. for the first-born, wisest of all the children of iluvatar, the caliquendi, who have walked with the valar in valinor?

not the first i've heard of this tale, but it always brings me up short.


disgusted lamentations --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 12:06am


Views: 4335
Wow. It is an eerie rhythm.


In Reply To

Quote
one set to take the boys and someone who finds them

One nanny hugs them all and in the preschool minds them.


Which is not as sinister as Sauron, I'll grant you.






Didn't realize it . That's freaky !!!! (Even better - one set to take the boys and one set to find them....)

I would guess yes, out of guilt and natural instincts and he did cherish them, and raise them 'as his' although at some point they learn the truth, if it was hidden from them. Did a good job too, by all accounts...Elrond sort of repeats family history here, never seeing Arwen again after her choice.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on Apr 30 2013, 12:09am)


Maciliel
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 1:27am


Views: 4271
if you knew

 

Quote
[erynion] the reading room intimidated me a little, I didn't want to presume I knew enough xD But Thanks! [/erynion]



if you knew everyone here posted without their pants on, would it seem less intimidating? i hope that is the case, because i assure you, everyone does do this.

you will too, after you've been posting here long enough. (full disclosure: i'm not wearing pants.)

it's not a rule or anything. no one's going to ask you, "hey! erynion! i read that very insightful post you made on the elves' immortality... were you wearing pants when you posted that?"

no, no one asks. after a while, it's just assumed. that is the only drawback to posting.


cheers (and mae govannen!!!) --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Apr 30 2013, 1:29am)


batik
Tol Eressea


Apr 30 2013, 1:37am


Views: 4263
I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my" ...pants. (!!!)//

 


Maciliel
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 1:46am


Views: 1567
hmmmm......

 

Quote
[batik] I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my" ...pants. (!!!)// [/batik]


hmmmm.... i cannot help but interpret this as an ardent request that i bore you.

i will consider your request.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 2:11am


Views: 1603
What are pants? //

 

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Maciliel
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 2:14am


Views: 1543
ardamire, that's the spirit!!! //

 


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 2:23am


Views: 1551
I must confess...

I am wearing pants Evil but I've been moving between boards, and I wouldn't want to wander into Off-topic without pants! How embarrassing that would be! Shocked

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Maciliel
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 2:29am


Views: 1608
really?

 
actually, i think it's far more embarrassing for you that you just admitted you're wearing pants in the reading room -- and you're from tol eressea, for ulmo's sake!

try to set a good example.

heads up: i think i hear manwe calling you to the mahanaxar.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Apr 30 2013, 2:30am)


Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 2:40am


Views: 1552
Maybe I'll switch to a kilt

Everyone should be happy that way! They're nice and breezy for the reading room, but formal enough for serious talk in the pollantir.

In all fairness, I have been singing tra-la-la-lally all day. That's got to count for something.

Oh, crud, I ain't got time for the Valar's shenanigans today....

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


erynion
Lorien

Apr 30 2013, 6:09am


Views: 1552
well...

I was in fact not wearing pants when I made the OP. I had just come out of the bath. xP


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 7:30am


Views: 1526
Obviously you'll fit right in here. //

 








elaen32
Gondor

Apr 30 2013, 8:13am


Views: 1522
Pants - a definition...

Here in England, pants mean underwear ie knickers, boxer shorts etc. In North America, I understand pants refers to trousers/ jeans etc. I do so hope that you guys are using the latter definition!! CrazyBlushWink

To get back on topic, I can't remember the details of this part, so had better get reading.

Welcome erynion by the way! See we are not that scary, are we?!

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


erynion
Lorien

Apr 30 2013, 9:04am


Views: 1558
I speak UK English, so... fear. XD

Ahem. Anyway.

I guess I'm not scared now! xD I think I've learned a lot about Tolkien canon in my 10 years of being in the fandom, yet I still feel the insecurity of a "films first fan". But yeah, it's fine. ^^


erynion
Lorien

Apr 30 2013, 9:09am


Views: 1534
It also adds to the death of Gil-galad..

Because if Cirdan basically fostered him in the same way Elrond did Aragorn then not only did he have to watch someone die who was a great king of Elves, but also like a son to Cirdan.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 9:23am


Views: 1550
Tying up the subthreads (except the sensible one).

OHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Twas the spring of Twenty thirteen, and in the Reading Room
We were all debating the wearnin' of pants, and sometimes the Ring of Doom.
With a do-la-la-lally, the elves in their valley, and the dwarves in their Halls have no smalls
And the only way to stop this 'ere song is to kick me in the ____
OHHHHHHHHHHHH!
[etc.]

Performance notes:
  • To be sung unaccompanied on Open Mic night by a group of folk singers attempting to sing in unison, each with a finger in their ear (putting your finger in another singer's ear is considered unconventional even in these days).
  • An instrument may be used to give a starting note, but this will not have any apparent bearing on the tuning of the song thereafter, or even on which key it's in.
  • It's traditional for least one singer, usually the most enthusiastic, to be horribly flat.
  • Three drinks per person minimum before starting.

There are a further seventeen verses, you know (you can join in from verse 10 onwards).

If one can bear its rustic charm, the song does go on to shed light on some Tolkien mysteries that are otherwise only hinted at in early drafts of The Lord of the Rings. For example, the passage that was originally:

Quote
The wood-elves tracked him first, an easy task for them, for his trail was still fresh then. Through Mirkwood and back again it led them, though they never caught him. The wood was full of the rumour of him, dreadful tales even among beasts and birds. The Woodmen said there was some new terror abroad, a ghost that stole pants. It climbed over fences to raid washing lines; it felt into washing machines to search the laundry; it slipped through windows to rummage bedroom drawers.

So Gollum's quote "What's 'pants' precious?" is not supposed to wash (if you see what I mean).

Assembling other such hints, it's been possible to establish that, In early drafts and plot outlines of LOTR:
  • Gollum's lingerie larceny included a successful raid upon the Eagles, who were therefore too embarrassed to assist the Wise by conveniently flying the Ring to Mordor and dropping it in the lava. It took until nearly the end of Book 5 before their mail-ordered replacements arrived.
  • A certain lady Balrog in Moria was left pantless, but not without the light floaty top which billows up so attractively in the heat around a balrog, and is mistaken by some for wings. (This is an understandable mistake: few who have inspected a balrog closely have survived). Not a morning person at the best of times, this theft - ontop of the pounding drums the morning after a lot of Real Ale and a poorly- received performance at Open Mic. night - explains Ms. Balrog's foul mood by the time the Fellowship arrived. And any chance of righting the misunderstanding was finished when she was convinced she heard Gandalf, over the roar of the flames, shout "You Can Not Sing Parts!" Well, really! She'd been the only one in tune.
  • Lastly, the hasty withdrawal of the Black Riders after an abortive attack on the camp at Weathertop is much more easily explained if one realises that, thanks to earlier actions by Gollum reducing their supplies of clean pants, an acute underwear problem just had to be dealt with before any further attack on the Ringbearer could possibly be made. The only clue to this remaining in the published text is Aragorn's line "More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth." Further elaboration of what happens to wraithes terrified by hearing the name Elbereth was felt to lower the tone of that section, and only gets further consideration in the as-yet unpublished volume of Tolkien's writings, Unstarted Tales. That does provide some additional material, however, and sheds light on a further minor mystery. Laundry is obviously a particular problem for wraiths in the wilderness, due to their fear of water, and the Nazgul would not normally have been in the field so long without their support unit, The Laundromat of Sauron. So they felt themselves fortunate to discover a newly-opened laundry just east of Bree ("How handy! I swear that wasn't there yesterday!"). This was run by a kindly, strangely familiar, old man with a long white beard and a grey robe. He did an excellent job of cleaning the Black Boxers and the Y-fronts of Angmar, but did detain the Riders for a strangely long time. Even allowing for their choice of the Gold service, which includes treating the items with ValarGuard, a wise precaution against further Weathertop-like mishaps. By the time the Black Riders were finished in the laundry, it was just too late to cut Frodo off at the Ford. This of course fills in a further mystery which has puzzled many readers and been a matter of much discussion in the Reading Room - exactly what is Gandalf up to after he leaves Weathertop and before he rejoins the tale at Rivendell? It seems probable that the whole laundry episode was too embarrassing and painful to recount at first, and that matters were too busy later. And so Frodo was left with the somewhat implausible tale that Gandalf had got lost, and never learned of yet another service which Gandalf had rendered him, and the whole of Middle-earth.
Yes, this explains a great deal which otherwise confuses the careful reader!

Though not, unfortunately, the matter of the First Age, Elros, Elrond, Gil-galad, etc. Good thing that others have more learning... or less coffee.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 10:16am


Views: 1554
Faramir's rangers

Further to that last post, I've just realised that this all makes sense of another mystery - the Archive of Gondor contains that early fourth age military correspondence between King Elessar, Princess Eowyn and Prince Faramir about the defenses of Ithilien. In this, Faramir's Ithilien Rangers are repeatedly referred to as "The First Gondor Commando Unit", a nickname which has been popularly taken to be a battle honour for their ambushes of Sauron's gathering forces (such as the one witnessed by Frodo and Sam). But Barahir, grandson of Faramir, (who wrote down the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen) comments obliquely that calling the Rangers The First Gondor Commando Unit started as "a family joke at the expense of my grandfather" -- a reference which has much puzzled scholars.

I see it all now - clearly Gollum was up to his old pants-stealing tricks, and Faramir's company of Ithilien Rangers soon discovered they had donated more than just provisions and walking staves to the Ringbearers' party. One imagines that poor Faramir had to put up with a lot of good-natured teasing about the matter from his wife and his liege-lord....

You see, this explains everything (and so, of course, is complete nonsense...)

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 10:36am


Views: 1507
Ok Ardamire! That's genuis! count my YES vote for Kilts

Seriously, that would be awesome RR attire!!!!. Cool So my vote would be Commando Kilts guys. (**waves hand**) Dress for the occasion!

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 10:45am


Views: 1483
Also tragically true


In Reply To
Because if Cirdan basically fostered him in the same way Elrond did Aragorn then not only did he have to watch someone die who was a great king of Elves, but also like a son to Cirdan.






So even after creating an 'immortal' race JRRT still wove in elements of sadness that are eternal to us mortal readers.

PLUS I just noted that you posted post-bath. Nicely done!!! Wink

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on Apr 30 2013, 10:48am)


erynion
Lorien

Apr 30 2013, 11:13am


Views: 1505
Somehow I always understood it in the way that the Sons of Feanor didn't capture Elrond and Elros at all, but instead found them hiding from the assault itself.

I find that idea interesting because it would mean that a lot would be kept from the twins when they were children. Maedhros and Maglor may have thought of demanding a ransom when they took them in, but they also ended up loving them and so may not have told the twins that it was actually their fault their city had been sacked and they had lost their parents. So for the longest time, Elrond and Elros might have felt they were taken in by kindly outsiders, developed a healthy case of Stockholm Syndrome, until somehow they learned the truth and decided to leave? Perhaps Maglor told them when they were a bit older, out of guilt, and they stayed because they did look at them like foster parents. Somehow, I imagine Elros to be the angrier one who would be more determined that the quest for the Silmarils wasn't their problem and they should get back to their own kind. But it could have happened that way, surely?


erynion
Lorien

Apr 30 2013, 11:16am


Views: 1509
It really does seem like one story split into two.

Though I guess we can't know which one came first. But I like the idea that Elured and Elurin were the ones captured and abandoned, whereas Elrond and Elros just fled from a battle. Perhaps telling them to get away and not let go of each others' hands were Elwing's last words to her sons?

But I generally think Elured and Elurin are somehow connected to the other two sets of twins in that lineage. Perhaps Elladan and Elrohir are them, reborn...? I'm not sure I go with that idea but I have played with it.


erynion
Lorien

Apr 30 2013, 11:20am


Views: 1518
I like to think so.

Is anything said about Maglor's wife anywhere? I read that he has one, but I don't remember where, or even if it was reliably canon. But I think if he had one then Elrond and Elros might even have got confused over whether their parents had ever been anyone else (but then again, they're Elf children, they might be more advanced than to make such a mistake.)


erynion
Lorien

Apr 30 2013, 11:29am


Views: 1532
I had another thought about Earendil meeting his boys again earlier...

And that's assuming that he hovered over the entire army (which, I guess, is a combination of the Beleriand Elves - leftover Noldor, Cirdan's Teleri, Doriath, Gondolin and Nargothrond refugees, and any stray Nandor) with his ship, never touching the ground, but lighting the way for everyone and blinding the orcs, wolves, balrogs, etc. that crossed their path, thus making them easier to find and defeat. After the end of the war, I imagined this scene where the twins and Eonwe would stand on a mountaintop or cliff, and Earendil bring Vingilot down to them and talk to them that way - never actually touching the floor. (I think that's a pretty cool image, too, shiny ship with the sea in the background and bewildered twins.. *__*) Mostly he'd talk about the choice between Men and Elves they could make, but I like to think it could be emotional, too. Then Eonwe would be right there with them to advise them on what exactly their choice would entail, and to take back the message of what they chose to the Valar. I'd actually love to write that scene (and at the same time describe many Elves camping by the seashore and on countless ships, exhausted from decades of travelling and war and confused as to whether they'll have to move again) but I think I couldn't get the language right. v.v





and thank you Laugh


(This post was edited by erynion on Apr 30 2013, 11:31am)


Maciliel
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 11:37am


Views: 1550
wow, just had an elros thought....


In Reply To
[erynion] I find that idea interesting because it would mean that a lot would be kept from the twins when they were children. Maedhros and Maglor may have thought of demanding a ransom when they took them in, but they also ended up loving them and so may not have told the twins that it was actually their fault their city had been sacked and they had lost their parents. So for the longest time, Elrond and Elros might have felt they were taken in by kindly outsiders, developed a healthy case of Stockholm Syndrome, until somehow they learned the truth and decided to leave? Perhaps Maglor told them when they were a bit older, out of guilt, and they stayed because they did look at them like foster parents. Somehow, I imagine Elros to be the angrier one who would be more determined that the quest for the Silmarils wasn't their problem and they should get back to their own kind. But it could have happened that way, surely? [/erynion]


i have always wondered what propelled elros to take up the fate of the edain. he wasn't raised in its culture, didn't have as many key edain figures in his life as elven (did he have any? any close ones?), and he (presumably) had exceedingly close ties with his twin brother, elrond (common with twins), which would have been heightened by the fact that they had lost their parents and had no other immediate family members.

so what could have compelled elros to make a choice that would sever him (presumably) forever from those he loved? at first glance, was it the power and prestige of being king of a new kingdom? was it the adventure of it all?

or was it that, being first-hand witness to all the betrayal and ugliness that was supposed to be not the way of the wiser, more skilled, and beautiful race, that he said -- "enough!" and was so disgusted with not just the sons of feanor (and i would think that his feelings about the feanorian sons who raised him would be incredibly conflicted) that he self-exiled from his entire race?

i will be mulling that over.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


erynion
Lorien

Apr 30 2013, 11:42am


Views: 1537
Elros and the Edain

I do wonder where men were at the end of the First Age, and I reckon the only thing that makes sense is that they were with the Elves, seeking refuge there. What else could they do? And they were friends with them anyway, so realizing all the Elves were going to the Isle of Balar, they would have gone there too.

So what my gf and I think and have been talking about lately is that Elros was friends with the men around him and just enjoyed their company - something that led to him actually leading them in battle, while Elrond became a herald to Gil-galad. After that, and especially in the situation of suddenly being given the choice to be with either the one or the other, I think it was clear to Elros where he desired to be most. Which must have broken Elrond's heart. But I also think Elros was pissed off with the Feanorians and possibly also with his own parents, for abandoning the twins when they didn't have to.


Maciliel
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 11:47am


Views: 1511
so cool

 
so cool that you have actual, real-life discussions about tolkien with your gf. for the most part, this does not happen in my corporeal life.

so cool! : )


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Maciliel
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 11:56am


Views: 1526
also


In Reply To
[erynion] I do wonder where men were at the end of the First Age, and I reckon the only thing that makes sense is that they were with the Elves, seeking refuge there. What else could they do? And they were friends with them anyway, so realizing all the Elves were going to the Isle of Balar, they would have gone there too.

So what my gf and I think and have been talking about lately is that Elros was friends with the men around him and just enjoyed their company - something that led to him actually leading them in battle, while Elrond became a herald to Gil-galad. After that, and especially in the situation of suddenly being given the choice to be with either the one or the other, I think it was clear to Elros where he desired to be most. Which must have broken Elrond's heart. But I also think Elros was pissed off with the Feanorians and possibly also with his own parents, for abandoning the twins when they didn't have to. [/erynion]



also, parental abandonment/orphanment comes up a lot in tolkien's world.

sometimes it is voluntary (like with the horrible example of miriel), and sometimes it's because of external causes (like the attack of doriath, with dior and nimloth's twin sons).

i, too, have wondered about earendil's and elwing's separation from elros and elrond.

there's the possibility that the valar said, "no more middle earth for you!" but that's problematic with what tolkien wrote of elven childbirth and childrearing -- children were meant to be raised by their parents, and the valar supported a sort of coda of rules about the eldar (e.g., decreeing if they could be rebodied). but the valar were also known to meddle (calling the eldar to aman), so... a conundrum.

the thought of earendil and elwing abandoning their young sons is even more disturbing.

but, whatever the reason, even if it was beyond their control, it doesn't mean that the twins didn't have abandonment issues, and wouldn't have blamed their parents. i'm building a picture of elros in my mind that has had so much abandonment and loss and disillusionment in his own kind that he just, in the end, rejected them all.

and, poor elrond. so much loss. orphaned. raised by the slayers of his immediate family (wow!), forever separated from his brother (by his brother's own volition), separated from his wife, who suffered a grave injury, and forever separated from his daughter.

elrond has had a lot to bear, which perhaps has had bearing on his wisdom.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


dik-dik
Lorien


Apr 30 2013, 1:22pm


Views: 1473
Re:

Concerning Elros and Elrond: I have always assumed the Feanoreans let them go at some point; I don't think there's any canon information on their upbringing until the War of Wrath. The only known (at least to me) piece implies that they lived with the Sons of Feanor (or Maglor at least, in the Silm. version) long enough for the children to grow to love their captor(s) despite their deeds. That in my opinion is a matter of more than a few years.


In Reply To
None of the Elves at the Havens would have welcomed the Fëanorians or hear any news from them, so chances are they thought Elrond and Elros were dead.


My interpretation is that the survivors of Sirion informed Cirdan's and Gil-galad's rescue troops that the children were alive but captured. And I think the residents of Balar didn't have sufficient numbers to pursue the Feanoreans into the wilds where creatures of the enemy could roam. Maybe the famed Elven foresight comes into play here as well - one or more of the Balar Elves (Cirdan comes to my mind first and foremost) could feel the children had yet a part to play in history. I too recall reading about how Beleriand was completely overrun by the enemy, so my guess as for Elros and Elond's place of residence after Sirion would be first the wilds of Ossiriand, and subsequently Balar. But I have no book evidence for the latter, and only an implied one for the former.

Concerning Gil-galad - I like your idea that it was the War of Wrath that earned him his epesse. After all, if I go by his Silmarillion parentage, Fingolfin and Fingon are likened to bright stars when in battle, aren't they?
I have no idea when Gil-galad was born, so I can't tell if he was old enough to take up kingship when news of Turgon's death reached Balar. As for Turgon, for me he's a legitimate High King, albeit 'in absentia': a bit like Finarfin (to whom I imagine the remaining Noldor of Middle-earth rallied in the War of Wrath, including Gil-galad's army, perhaps excluding the Feanoreans).


In Reply To
as they went, until they crossed the Blue Mountains, by which time they must have finally captured Melkor and Sauron and killed "all" their creatures; enough to stop flooding at least.


I'm intrigued, do we actually have any claim by Tolkien that the hosts of Valinor ever crossed the Blue Mountains?

I like your idea of survivors sent away by ships - or, since most of Ossiriand seems never to have been flooded, perhaps Ossiriand was kept clear of earth-chaning processes (be it the movement of the hosts or huge explosions etc.) as the way through which the survivors who couldn't fight could flee?


In Reply To
Bonus question: is there any chance Elrond and Elros actually met and spoke to Eärendil during or after the War of Wrath, or did he just pass over everyone in his ship like a thing of legend rather than someone who had once simply been "Ada"?


No book evidence again, but somehow I don't think the Powers would let a hallowed ship land in the tainted Outer Lands. I can well see Earendil sailing so high that even the shouted greetings of his sons would have trouble reaching him, so I'm sceptical as to whether such a reunion took place. It would have been an event of great importance, and surely recorded?

Just my two cents. :)

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


Elthir
Grey Havens

Apr 30 2013, 1:31pm


Views: 1466
Cave Elf

I'm not sure this letter necessarily represents Tolkien's final scenario here. As already noted, that tale appears in a letter dated 1958, and the idea is connected to Elrond meaning *Elf of the Cave...

... however, and not long after, Elrond is said to mean 'Star-dome' (1959-60, Quendi and Eldar). In The Shibboleth of Feanor (1968 or later) it was said that the names Elros and Elrond: 'were formed to recall the name of their mother Elwing' with Elros meaning 'Starlit foam'; and in The Problem of ROS (1968 or later): 'Now Elrond was a word for the firmament, the starry dome as it appeared like a roof to Arda; and it was given by Elwing in memory of the great Hall of the throne of Elwe in the midst of his stronghold Menegroth that was called the Menelrond,...' And in letter 345 (1972) Elrond meant 'The vault of stars'.

If a meaning 'Elf of the Cave' is out, as it appears, my guess would be that so too is the story that goes with it. Of course it's not necessarily so, I admit...

... but just to make a hazy scenario even hazier Wink


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 1:37pm


Views: 1428
Macfalk, if you're reading this: why didn't Cirdan ever have a son? //

 


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 1:54pm


Views: 1445
There were Men at Sirion

I'm reading Unfinished Tales now, and a note says that the story about the Children of Hurin was written by a man at the Sirion refuge, who shared it with the Eldar. As you point out, where else could Men go? So it makes sense that the El-boys would mingle with Men there.


Elthir
Grey Havens

Apr 30 2013, 2:01pm


Views: 1425
the sinking of Beleriand

Christopher Tolkien generally noted: 'What little was ever told of the Drowning of Beleriand is very difficult to interpret; the idea shifted and changed, but my father never at any stage clearly expounded it.'

That's really the best answer, unfortunately. I took a look at the external sources and came up with the same...

... answer? Smile


The problem with the fostering of Elrond and Elros and the Drowning of Beleriand is that Tolkien never really updated the end of Quenta Silmarillion -- he made some cursory corrections, yes, but Christopher Tolkien warns that these should not mean that JRRT himself was accepting the end chapters as otherwise updated, and Shirly there were not in my opinion.


What you really have is some ideas from the mid to late 1930s, which possibly still incorporate the Isle of Britain as being a land mass that survives the War of Wrath! And we also have the confusing possibility that the true 'full' destruction of Beleriand did not take place until Numenor fell.

We do know that the Isle of Britain -- as a surviving Isle -- did not likely survive as a concept into the 1950s, but below is the last version of QS [for this chapter] that Tolkien ever wrote. CJRT said he was surprised that for Quenta Silmarillion (QS) his father followed the earlier Qenta Noldorinwa (Q) so closely in features where the 'intrusion' of Númenor had already introduced new conceptions. I note an interesting passage in QS describing that after the Great Battle 'Men... fled far away, and it was long ere they came back over Eredlindon to the places where Beleriand had been'

What then was the meaning of this in the earlier Qenta Noldorinwa? Christopher says that he does not certainly know what this refers to, but speculates that it's conceivable that it refers to 'the bloody invasions of England in later days described in Ælfwine II; for there is very little in that text that cannot be readily accommodated to the present passage in S and Q, with the picture of the fading Elves of Lúthien leaving our Western shores. But a serious difficulty with this idea lies in the coming of Men 'over the mountains' to where Beleriand once had been.' Christopher Tolkien, The Quenta, HME IV

Well that's interesting! And in The Fall of Númenor II, Elendil the Númenorean, a king of Beleriand '... took counsel with the Elves that remained in Middle-earth (and these abode then mostly in Beleriand); and he made a league with Gil-galad the Elf-king. And their armies were joined, and passed the mountains and came into inner lands far from the Sea.'

Also in the extant QS, Tolkien wrote '... of the great building of ships upon the shores of the Western Sea, and especially upon the great isles which, in the disruption of the northern world, were fashioned of ancient Beleriand.' Turning again to Qenta Noldorinwa CJRT writes: 'The relation between these passages* strongly suggests that the 'Western Isles' were the British Isles, and that England still had a place in the actual mythological geography, as is explicitly so in S.' Of course Tolkien could use the same or similar passage from an older version and 'give' it new meaning (even if not clearly discerned), but I think the external history of the text here is very interesting.

It is also said in this version that not all the Elves were willing to forsake the 'Hither Lands' and some lingered in the West and North, and 'especially in the western isles and in the land of Leithien.'

Leithien is England... or was anyway! And again, this was the last version Tolkien ever wrote for Quenta Silmarillion. What we have in the 1977 Silmarillion has been edited of course, but it's from material that was rather problematic with respect to dating and being 'finished' in any notable sense.


So somewhat large questions remain. Add in the Isle of 'Himling' [Himring] and Tol Fuin, another [rather large] Isle that remained... again at least at one point in the external conception, according to an old map [for myself I'm not certainly sure these concepts necessarily survived themselves]... plus Tol Morwen, and the matter becomes even more confusing.

That's why, in a sense, CJRT's statement above is actually a good answer Smile


(This post was edited by Elthir on Apr 30 2013, 2:04pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 3:32pm


Views: 1401
The ideas in this discussion are amazing. Thanks so much for beginning this thread!...

...even though we haven't touched on some of the other details yet, the complex theorizing concerning Elrond and Elros is fantastic. I would guess at one point JRRT was looking at more of a 'taken' scenario for them, as he seems to describe them as VERY young in the babes-in-the-woods passage.

As far as their choices of elf-kind and human-kind the background with Meahdros and Maeglor gives us an amazing amount of insight. Indeed I can agree with Elros perhaps feeling closer and more bound to humans because of the experiences he had with the brothers; Elrond being, not sure here, more 'lore-ish' choosing elf-kind? Although there is no textual info that I ever remember your image of Earandil appearing in Vingilot is deeply compelling; especially if at that time he gave the message of the Valar to them about choosing the destinies of their lines which is a bit of knowledge that has no other route (that I can remember) of being told to them .

As Mac points out some aspects of distant and unavailable parents seems to be a recurring theme in JRRT's works if one peers closely enough. I have read that part of his adoration of the countryside in which he spent his younger years was in large part due to the fact that he associated it with his mother. I think his understanding of the impacts of the early loss of a parent translates into a significant force that acts upon his characters. It certainly causes them to make decisions that would not have happened otherwise. And the sterling worth of fostering too, we see so often. that these somewhat outlaw Elves are added into a noble collection - Cirdan, Elrond himself; in this odd instance Maehdros, for whom I have quite a compassion for (not to chapter-jump but we will discuss him more in Return of the Noldor) especially after the death of Feanor. Indeed the act of fostering the two boys gives both these Feanorian sons a bit of redemption outside of the curse of the Oath (which of course will get them in the end.) This brings up a fantastic point we discussed in NoWiz's Live from Rivendell chapter, about Elrond using wisdom in NOT compelling the Fellowship with an oath - he has indeed learned from his own history the damage Oaths can do.

I wonder though if there was any bitterness when the brothers left their foster-fathers. From a removed sense I can see that there would be, just based on the actions of the House of Feanor against their parents. On a personal level it must have made them quite conflicted, having affection for them from such a young age...

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


erynion
Lorien

Apr 30 2013, 3:36pm


Views: 1374
just a short reply for now as I'm on my phone..

I don't know of any textual evidence saying the host of the Valar (plus Beleriand leftovers) crossed the Blue Mountains but I assumed they'd go a little further into Eriador than just the area of the Grey Havens, to make sure nothing evil waited there. (Should've checked Moria...)

As for Eärendil I'm not sure he could fight a dragon without ever hovering above the ground. There was probably much epic flying involved but he would have to communicate with troops on the ground and Ancalagon himself to even coordinate a duel.

"Elwing, would you mind flying down and telling the dragon to come up here so I can kill him?"


(This post was edited by erynion on Apr 30 2013, 3:39pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 30 2013, 4:03pm


Views: 1373
The War of Wrath vs. the Change of the World

Although both events had major impacts on Arda as a whole, I've always been a bit amused that the Change of the World affected Middle-earth proper (including the lands of Harad) far less than the earlier event did.

The War of Wrath resulted in the drowning of Beleriand and the draining of the Inland Sea of Helcar.

The Change of the World turned Arda into a globe (allegedly) when the Undying Lands were separated from the World and resulted in the sinking of Númenor and whole new lands arising from the seas, formed from Ekkaia and the Empty Lands. Yet, the more familiar, inhabited lands of Middle-earth are virtually untouched. Even the Dark Land, immediately to the East and South of Middle-earth, seems little changed from the First Age to the Third--making me wonder if any Númenorean colonies there survived the Change.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


PhantomS
Rohan


Apr 30 2013, 4:14pm


Views: 1439
there is the question of being Men

when Beor died the Elves were very shocked that Men lived very short lives in relation to them. The deeds of human heroes such as Hurin, Huor, Tuor ,Turin and of course Beren are probably legends even to Elves, and apart from Tuor they all died.

Elros might have thought the Gift of Men would be a good thing when Elrond desired it not; Elrond's heroes are perhaps the kindred of Glorfindel, the Elvenkings and Cirdan, who might have been killed but would live centuries otherwise and tend to the world. Earendil himself was a Man at heart and he must have passed it on to his son Elros.

The messengers who meet Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Antanamir later on state that the Elves should envy Men for having the Gift of true death. Maybe Elros saw that as a chance to really leave the world?


Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 5:00pm


Views: 1407
Been sewing furiously overnight...

Got kilts for all!! Cool

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


erynion
Lorien

Apr 30 2013, 5:19pm


Views: 1396
On the location of Maedhros and Maglor

Something else I've been wondering about - someone I discussed this with elsewhere suggested to me that Maedhros and Maglor may have taken Elrond and Elros with them to Himring. But that is so extremely far north from the Havens of Sirion. Surely they wouldn't even know to attack those living at Sirion, if they weren't driven out of Himring themselves? They'd need to scout the location, find a gap in security, and even know most Elves were living there in the first place.
That leaves the question of where they would actually be living, if not Himring. I can't think of anywhere, except perhaps actually a very desolate Doriath? After all it wasn't the orcs that drove the Elves from there, it was the Sons of Feanor, so they could take up residence there - albeit with a guilty conscience. Or if Amras was still alive, they could have stayed with him in East Beleriand, as that seems to be comparatively safe? In any case, wherever they lived, Elros and Elrond grew up there. And I really don't think it could have been Himring, that's far too close to Angband considering how strong Melkor had got at that point.


(This post was edited by erynion on Apr 30 2013, 5:27pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 5:26pm


Views: 1364
Amon Ereb

I think The Sil says that the Sons of Feanor wound up on Amon Ereb (or nearby Ramdal?) in southern Beleriand after the Nirnaeth. Morgoth's forces weren't as active there, so the brothers would have a mostly unimpeded path for attacking the Sirion haven.


erynion
Lorien

Apr 30 2013, 5:28pm


Views: 1352
that fits with the edit I just made to my post! perfect. :3

 


erynion
Lorien

Apr 30 2013, 5:32pm


Views: 1391
I think Elros just took to Men as soon as he met them.

I like the idea of Aragorn having "mates" to go camping, hunting, getting drunk and stoned with, in the Dúnedain, and I think Elros became the same. And Elrond would have seen this as a bad influence and might have even resented Men for making his brother grow apart from him. And actually, I often toy with the idea that after Elros made his choice, Gil-galad had more to do with him (from king of Elves to king of Men, as it were) than Elrond did, because it was too emotional to have to watch him die one day.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 5:37pm


Views: 1369
Wot- no more "out of kilt-er" posts with the new dress code? //

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 5:42pm


Views: 1392
Like father, like son

Nice to see you again, Phantom, and thanks for joining in!

I like your idea of Elros being like Earendil, and Elrond like Elwing, because there's a lot of that in Tolkien where children take after profound personality traits of their parents. Just one among many instances is that Nerdanel imparted her character to some of Feanor's sons (like Maglor and possibly the twins), but not all of them. It's apparent in The Hobbit also, because really, if a modern-day person (like me) is part Swedish and part French, does that mean there's a Viking inside of me competing with a wine-lover? No. But that's what you have with Bilbo's Took vs. Baggins personalities from his parents' lineages. Having the El-boys split and each follow a parental path would be consistent with other families in the the books.

Addressing the larger debate, I'm a bit torn in views of the motivation, if any, for the brothers to choose their racial fates, and if it wasn't just plot-driven. Tolkien takes twins and makes one the king of Numenor, the other a very prominent leader of the Eldar in the 2nd and 3rd Ages. To me it seems he wanted to show that racial split and the concrete ability to choose one's spiritual destiny, and also provide Men with some high-quality DNA from Luthien and others so that the royal house of the Dunedain would have a great pedigree. It also sets up the later grievance and conflict in Numenor when the Kings can say Elros didn't choose for them and they want to make their own choice. Who else but Elros could have started the Ball of Fate rolling?

When Arwen first meets Aragorn and learns who he is, she tells him "we are kin from afar." I think that's important in showing that the two are reuniting the long-sundered lineages of the El-brothers. That's why I see Elros' choice as having little to do with his character and mostly about setting up the plot for this Great Scheme of where the bloodlines go and the conflicts and reunions that are to come.


ltnjmy
Rivendell


Apr 30 2013, 5:42pm


Views: 1388
Not being scary, but everyone who posts here is highly erudite


In Reply To
I'm thinking we should get a couple pet Balrogs, or maybe swear a few rash oaths about newcomers.

Or we could make it really scary and sing Tra-la-la-lally once in a while.

*I loved the above comments. made me smile*
**
Also when I quote, I don't know how to get out of the reply box - so that is why I bold my comments, to differentiate them from the others. Everyone here is so nice and makes such detailed, erudite and highly thoughtful and engaging comments - that lurkers like myself still get intimidated.Smile




Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 5:50pm


Views: 1339
Haha, thanks so much!

I think most would be less nervous or intimidated if they saw all these pants (now officially kilts) subthreads. Tongue

I think the problem you're having with the reply box is that you're not clicking the "end reply" button. It looks like this --> /reply (only it will have the brackets around it). Try it and see if that fixes it Smile

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 5:52pm


Views: 1389
Do you not like my kilts!?

I slaved away all through the night. I expected more appreciation from you NWM! ShockedEvil

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 30 2013, 5:53pm


Views: 1380
An old public speaking trick....

...is to visualize your audience as being in their underwear.

Of course, given that most people here are at home on their computers, they probably really are.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 6:01pm


Views: 1362
Hint on exiting the reply box

Hi Itnjmy,

Here's what I do. Everytime I reply to a post, I always hit the enter key a few times in the text box to give me blank lines, then cursor up to be in the middle of them. It makes formatting so much easier, and then you just delete the extra lines when you're finished.


In Reply To
*I loved the above comments. made me smile*
**
Also when I quote, I don't know how to get out of the reply box - so that is why I bold my comments, to differentiate them from the others. Everyone here is so nice and makes such detailed, erudite and highly thoughtful and engaging comments - that lurkers like myself still get intimidated.Smile

So I can copy and paste your remarks above, then reply like this below. Though you don't have to, and if you bold or *** your comments somehow in the reply box, we'll know they're yours.

Speaking for myself, I avoid conversations where I don't know what people are talking about or don't have an opinion, which is why I lurk on the movie boards since I liked the movies but don't feel too strongly about their details. But if you ever see us discussing something that you have a personal viewpoint or question on, please jump in. There's nothing to fear except some rabid ponies, a few stray balrogs, and a hungry gollum or two, but they're easily chased away by Bombadil singing.


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 30 2013, 6:04pm


Views: 1373
Speaking for myself....

Speaking for myself, I avoid conversations where I don't know what people are talking about or don't have an opinion,..

That's never stopped me.Cool

And really, the Reading Room has a great reputation for tolerance which I hope it never loses. (For example, it is considered extremely bad manners to correct spelling or grammar here.)

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 30 2013, 6:10pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 6:04pm


Views: 1372
Kilts

It's very thoughtful of you to make us all kilts, but if I don't wear mine, can I use it for other things, like maybe a Christmas tree skirt or a throw rug or a table cloth? I'd just hate for it to go to waste.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 6:05pm


Views: 1355
My Pinocchio nose was growing on that one. Never stops me either. //

 


Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 6:11pm


Views: 1371
Nope

You must wear it each and every day. Also, it's hand-wash only...isn't it just the best gift ever? (Or more like a part-time job Wink)

Hope you love it. I sheared my own sheep and everything.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen

(This post was edited by Ardamírë on Apr 30 2013, 6:11pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 6:54pm


Views: 1362
I adore your handiwork Ardamire!!!!

And black watch plaid - my favorite!!! Stunning!!! SmileHeart **Applauding** over here!!!

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 7:03pm


Views: 1362
I knew you'd love the pattern

I dyed all my sheep before shearing them. I knew the black watch plaid sheep was just the one for you!

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 7:36pm


Views: 1427
Love.


In Reply To
i have always wondered what propelled elros to take up the fate of the edain. he wasn't raised in its culture, didn't have as many key edain figures in his life as elven (did he have any? any close ones?), and he (presumably) had exceedingly close ties with his twin brother, elrond (common with twins), which would have been heightened by the fact that they had lost their parents and had no other immediate family members.


It made the decision for Arwen, why not Elros? We can only regret that no one seems to have written the story...








Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 7:45pm


Views: 1423
Excellent point Phantom


In Reply To

The messengers who meet Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Antanamir later on state that the Elves should envy Men for having the Gift of true death. Maybe Elros saw that as a chance to really leave the world?




Completely true here, and JRRT reiterates it in Letters quite frequently, about the levels of envy between all the races relative to their life-span and afterlife 'gifts'. The Gift was regarded as just that until Morgoth did his work in sowing unrest among Men and convincing them it was a short-changing. I like what Letter #131 has to say: "Since the point of view of the whole cycle is the Elvish, mortality is not explained mythically: it is a mystery of God of which no more is known than that 'what God has purpose for Men is hidden: a grief and envy to the immortal Elves."

So I think your take on Elros' desire may be perfectly correct, as the Doom is seen by the Elves as a mysterious 'out' and that mystery grieves them, especially with aging and 'fading' as they become tired of the cycles of the world. In initial concept I wonder if the point of the choice was a little different, as I found the passage in Shaping of Middle Earth that discusses the evolution of Elros and of the choice of the half-kin...initially it seems to have been directed at choosing to go into the West versus staying in Arda; the clear choice of mortality vs immortality seems to have come later, making the choice a much more sweeping decision potentially separating families and loved ones forever, and a much more critical philosophical and spiritual underlie to the story.

In Arda Reconstructed Voronwe (Douglas Kane) points out that the sentence in which Earandil acknowledges and already understands that he risked 'the doom of death' and implying his mortality as a nature (by not being full Elven) versus a choice for setting foot on the immortal shore has been removed. We see it next during the debate between Manwe and Ulmo, when it is confirmed that the fate of a Man stepping onto the shore would be death (but obviously not an 'automatic' or 'magical' one as it didn't happen: thus it seems it would have to be an act of the Valar carried out in judgment), and the doom of Manwe's decides Earandil's fate and defines the choice of half-kin. Having the knowledge that he risked death in advance for being mortal-kind, not just violating the Ban as part Noldor, makes Earandil even braver I think for stepping ashore and carrying his message.
JRRT defines men's fate as 'Hope without guarantees' (Letter #181) and in this context Earandil is heroically seeking exactly that - hope without guarantee.

Is that perhaps what inspires the choice in the first place? We have Ulmo fighting for him - but I'm sure (changed from maybe here) that bravery (which we don't get the full flavor of) is what sways Manwe to create the choice for the children of Earandil...

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on Apr 30 2013, 7:53pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 8:06pm


Views: 1429
Cirdan not having a son...

CG is that a boxers versus briefs question?



(And get that kilt on sailor - rules are rules!)

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on Apr 30 2013, 8:07pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 8:55pm


Views: 1391
Love the kilt, but

Love the kilt, but am too fat to wear it. Must find my Girdle of Melian! Why is that so hard to find? Smile

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


(This post was edited by noWizardme on Apr 30 2013, 9:01pm)


elaen32
Gondor

Apr 30 2013, 8:59pm


Views: 1404
Plot device

I agree with this and I have to say that, I too had always seen the choices of Elros and Elrond as being more plot driven by anything else. Admittedly, I have not read the HoME books regarding this, but there is not a great deal of further explanation of this elsewhere. There is certainly family precedence for choosing to be mortal, but the bond between the twins is likely to have been very strong and parting very difficult. I do not know of anywhere that Tolkien acknowledges this and I do wonder how much he thought about this

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 9:05pm


Views: 1386
Bahahaha lovely!

I'm sure Brethil could get to work on girdles for those who need them, and I'll continue on with the kilts. We'll be the coolest board on this forum!

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


elaen32
Gondor

Apr 30 2013, 9:09pm


Views: 1390
What has it got in its sporranses, precious?//

 

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 9:11pm


Views: 1391
I should have said "Malickfan"--oops

Malickfan is our resident expert on Cirdan and wrote a voluminous and masterly treatise on why he's the greatest of Tolkien's characters. So I thought he'd know why he was childless; I got the name wrong from Macfalk. It's like all those "F" names in The Sil I can't keep straight either.

At this point, I won't speculate on whether Malickfan is wearing clothing of any kind, but if he needs a kilt, I have a spare one to loan him. Just don't tell Ardamire I'm a re-gifter.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 9:15pm


Views: 1410
It's buried between the Bra of Ungoliant and Trousers of Tulkas. //

 


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 9:21pm


Views: 1364
Is Cirdan even married? Or still waiting for "a cirdan someone" perhaps?//

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


(This post was edited by noWizardme on Apr 30 2013, 9:24pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 9:23pm


Views: 1323
Thanks- sorted now & will try to be erudite. Or even Eru-dite, which would be a fine thing in Middle-earth! //

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 9:25pm


Views: 1357
You are on a roll with these! :) //

 


Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 9:33pm


Views: 1376
Eek!

I'm not sure! What has it gotses??

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 9:35pm


Views: 1358
That's it!

After all this lack of appreciation, I won't be knitting you any stockings for Christmas like I will for everyone else! You'll be sorry Tongue

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Maciliel
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 9:48pm


Views: 1355
oh, OH!

 
.... you earn +total+ points for this, nowimë...


Quote
[nowimë] Is Cirdan even married? Or still waiting for "a cirdan someone" perhaps?// [/nowimë]



... +brilliant+!


(unsheathes her sword in salute, and points it to the vault of the sky)

cheers : )


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


erynion
Lorien

Apr 30 2013, 9:50pm


Views: 1359
that's probably truefor Tolkien's motives, but I like to think of stories from their characters' points of view :)

 


Maciliel
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 9:54pm


Views: 1371
i actually am in agreement...

 

Quote
[curiousg] Addressing the larger debate, I'm a bit torn in views of the motivation, if any, for the brothers to choose their racial fates, and if it wasn't just plot-driven. Tolkien takes twins and makes one the king of Numenor, the other a very prominent leader of the Eldar in the 2nd and 3rd Ages. To me it seems he wanted to show that racial split and the concrete ability to choose one's spiritual destiny, and also provide Men with some high-quality DNA from Luthien and others so that the royal house of the Dunedain would have a great pedigree. It also sets up the later grievance and conflict in Numenor when the Kings can say Elros didn't choose for them and they want to make their own choice. Who else but Elros could have started the Ball of Fate rolling?

When Arwen first meets Aragorn and learns who he is, she tells him "we are kin from afar." I think that's important in showing that the two are reuniting the long-sundered lineages of the El-brothers. That's why I see Elros' choice as having little to do with his character and mostly about setting up the plot for this Great Scheme of where the bloodlines go and the conflicts and reunions that are to come. [/curiousg]



i'm actually in agreement with this assessment, curiousg... practically, i think tolkien is more focused (especially in the sil) with overarching history and races and such.

... but ....

it is in my nature to look at these things through this lens, and i also think it makes a lot of sense (to look at them this way). we're dealing with people who have feelings... sometimes about things (hullo, feanor!) and sometimes about people (lots of other folks).

i think tolkien often neglects this aspect because he's more interested in the history and the universe-making. but if we are to take an elros as a real individual and not just a name, then i think it's worth looking at what could have been his personal motiviations, in the context of his relationships with others.

so, this is what i do. today, thinking that way, elros opened up for me as he never has in the past.


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 10:02pm


Views: 1359
Well I love it, and even found a pic...

...of your artfully dyed sheep!
C'mon folks - look at this artistry!
And for the record, in my temporal reality, you are wearin' 'em, so there ya go CG and NoWiz! (**Bang**! Kilt's ON!)




I even see my Black watch special in there...Smile

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


dik-dik
Lorien


Apr 30 2013, 10:03pm


Views: 1338
might be either that...

... or Ossiriand as mentioned in the Silmarillion. It would actually make more sense to me for them to be forced to abandon even Amon Ereb and hide in the woods of Ossiriand before the War of Wrath. I fancy Amon Ereb was kind of conspicuous, and seeing it would be the only big (at least, big enough to be named in maps) settlement in inland Beleriand after the Havens fell, I should imagine Morgoth's servants would head over there. Maybe the Sons of Feanor had sufficient numbers to man the hill before the Third Kinslaying, but I'm not too sure about their situation after Sirion.

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


Maciliel
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 10:04pm


Views: 1355
i +love+ this idea!

 

Quote
[elizabeth] love. It made the decision for Arwen, why not Elros? We can only regret that no one seems to have written the story... [/elizabeth]


elizabeth, i +love+ this idea.

on a number of levels.

1. that love compels, and is repeatedly shown to be a powerful maker of epic histories as well as personal ones.

2. that a male elf (well, half-elf) would find love with a female member of the edain.

one of the disappointments to me in tolkien's works is that these types of relationships always seem to have the female as being the love object on the pedestal.

beren, aspires to luthien.
tuor, to idril.
aragorn, to arwen.

when it's the other way around (and a lot of examples don't come easily to mind), like with aegnor and andreth, it goes nowhere.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Apr 30 2013, 10:04pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 10:19pm


Views: 1393
Sparse examples of male as object of love interest

It seems that Melian is drawn to Elwe as much as or more so than he is to her. More so, it feels like.

How about Eowyn lusting after Aragorn?

That's all I can think of. Maybe Tolkien's men are all homely, and his women have good taste and high standards that can't be satisfied?

Ungoliant seemed to lust after Melkor toward the end, but not in the most romantic kind of way.


Maciliel
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 10:25pm


Views: 1423
it's really not the love-interest aspect

 
... that i'm highlighting here...

it's that the female is of some sort of higher stature (by being an elf, by being a princess, what have you), and a male of "lesser" stature must woo/win her.

so we've got mortal beren, who dares fall in love with luthien. elf. princess.

the races are supposed to be equal, but in practice it doesn't seem to play out that way.

it would seem more like real romance and less like author invention if we had a few going the other way. because, in real life, this happens.

(and we really need a thread on melian -- as you may have noted from my original melian post on the sil thread. : ) )

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 10:31pm


Views: 1308
Was thinking more of whether Cirdan had boxer or briefs...

...but that's besides the point....

As far as the Choice of the brothers being plot driven: I found this in Letter #257: "The passage in ch iii (TH) relating him to the Half-elven of the mythology was a fortunate accident, due to the difficulty of constantly inventing good names for new characters. I gave him the name Elrond casually, but as this came from the mythology (Elros and Elrond the two sons of Earandil) I made him half-elven. Only in The Lord was he identified with the son of Earandil, and so the great-grandson of Luthien and Beren, a great power and a Ringholder."

It sounds like here JRRT is saying that the sons existed already, but that the Choice perhaps grew out of the 'fortunate accident' of using the name of Elrond with the half-elven appellation. In Letter #153 "The entering of Men into the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of the Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves." So the plan was there all along, but if indeed Elrond and Elros become the fulcrum for the entrance of Elven blood into human lines, the device must have been worked into the tale after The Hobbit committed him to the name, and he decided to make use of it in LOTR even though its mythological existence was only in the unpublished Sil. at that point.

I do agree with Mac in the sense that even though there might be a utilitarian 'frame' for building the event, regardless because of the complexity of the situation and consistency with JRRT's other ideas even a glimpse of the tale gives us insights into the players concerned.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 10:34pm


Views: 1332
Ossiriand?

I remember The Silmarillion referring to the Sons of Feanor being in Ossiriand, but wouldn't they have no welcome there after destroying Doriath? It seems news of their kindred's slaughter would reach Ossiriand at some point.

I agree Amon Ereb was a sitting duck for attack, but I wonder if Morgoth didn't care since he'd conquered everything else and it wasn't important. It's a mystery where they went, though it's mentioned that they were scattered and wandering and only came together for the new Kinslayings. Hiding out in Taur-im-Duinath would make sense if it were at all inhabitable.

Somehow Elwing knew her sons were captured since she took that information with her to Earendil, and they feared their boys would be slain in captivity. Maybe it was their capture that prompted her to throw herself in the Sea.

Anyway, thanks for your observations. I wish the Sons of Feanor wore GPS trackers so we'd know where they went. Somehow they show up in public after the War of Wrath is over, which makes me wonder if they participated in it or merely came out of hiding at the end. It seems they would have been pariahs and no one would to fight next to them during the War (and people would rather execute them), but who knows.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 10:41pm


Views: 1307
Melian? Who's Melian?

I was thinking we might tackle her when we get to The Ruin of Doriath, and then we could take into account all her actions then and before. It's a biggie to me that she leaves Doriath open to all its enemies as the grieving widow. "See ya! I hope that war thing works out for you now that I've let defenses down." Could you wait for that chapter? Not that you have to, of course, it just seems a natural part of that chapter discussion. And there's quite a bit to say about her in the Luthien chapter. But I wouldn't hold you back, even with my new kilt on.


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 10:44pm


Views: 1354
I agree here CG on Elwing's leap


In Reply To

Somehow Elwing knew her sons were captured since she took that information with her to Earendil, and they feared their boys would be slain in captivity. Maybe it was their capture that prompted her to throw herself in the Sea.






Indeed the survivors of Sirion who join Gil-gilad are aware of the boys being taken, so I would guess Elwing did as well. I think the leap into the Sea was a culmination of her losing absolutely everything PLUS her desire that the sons of Feanor did not get the Silmaril. There is no text proof but I feel like *maybe* she was away from her sons for a minute, maybe leaving them with a caretaker, to either check on the Silmaril or to hide it, when they were taken; and after that, in sadness already because Earandil was not around and now here sons were taken (maybe she saw it?) she flung herself into the sea.

Kilt is stylin', BTW.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on Apr 30 2013, 10:45pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 10:51pm


Views: 1347
+exactly+

 
yes, exactly.

i shall wait until doriath is in ashes, and then we can use that light to illuminate melian.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 11:06pm


Views: 1341
Girdles done Ardamire!


In Reply To
I'm sure Brethil could get to work on girdles for those who need them, and I'll continue on with the kilts. We'll be the coolest board on this forum!




See? No worries. Magic Girdles for all.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 11:25pm


Views: 1361
Male and female roles in the mythos


In Reply To
It seems that Melian is drawn to Elwe as much as or more so than he is to her. More so, it feels like.

How about Eowyn lusting after Aragorn?

That's all I can think of. Maybe Tolkien's men are all homely, and his women have good taste and high standards that can't be satisfied?

Ungoliant seemed to lust after Melkor toward the end, but not in the most romantic kind of way.




I think in JRRT's world men are most often the 'seekers' in relationships, as is befitting his concept of romance. In the above examples there is an aberration - Eowyn loving (won't say lusting here) and pursuing (in her quiet way) Aragorn is a function of her immaturity, her desire to escape an unhappy life, and her love for Faramir (who 'seeks' her) is her 'mature' and fully real love. I think it says something about Melian and Thingol here, because although her enchantment was probably overwhelming, he came to her, and took her hand...so he still has that 'seeker' role in the relationship although she certainly could have refused him (but didn't) so she had a very powerful, albeit passive role, in that union.

Yeah the lobster bib and the salt shaker would give Ungoliant away every time.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 1 2013, 12:27am


Views: 1379
Another triple digit thread in the Reading Room

And rather shockingly, we haven't strayed too far from the OP on the El-boys. Do you suppose they wore kilts? That would help bring the discussions together. Did Maglor give them kilts, and thus win their love? Did Elwing jump in the Sea in a waterproof kilt, thinking it was a lifevest?

Also, on page 2 of the Rdg Rm, Aragalen added to the Bombadil thread, another triple digit one. That is, if anyone likes statistics more than kilts and ponies.


(This post was edited by CuriousG on May 1 2013, 12:27am)


Ardamírë
Valinor


May 1 2013, 2:11am


Views: 1328
I LOVE THIS!!!!!!!!! //

 

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Ardamírë
Valinor


May 1 2013, 2:13am


Views: 1364
Magic even?

You've gone all out, Brethil! Keep up the good work. Maybe we need to start a production company for the official TORn clothing line Cool

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Brethil
Half-elven


May 1 2013, 3:13am


Views: 1327
Sweet!


In Reply To
You've gone all out, Brethil! Keep up the good work. Maybe we need to start a production company for the official TORn clothing line Cool




But those gorgeous TORn kilts are gonna fly - you will have to do a lot of sheep-painting...! Wink (Maybe the Dwarves can get us some Mithril Kilt-pins..)

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Ardamírë
Valinor


May 1 2013, 3:37am


Views: 1322
Your suggestions

are fantastic! This business will boom! Wink

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 1 2013, 4:01am


Views: 1331
"It's a dangerous businesses, erynion, posting in the RR.

"You step on the discussion board and if you don't keep your wits about you, there's no knowing where the discussion might be swept off to."

Cool

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


erynion
Lorien

May 1 2013, 8:03am


Views: 1304
Melian's quite the "seeker" though

At least, that's how I saw her. I'm not sure where it comes from, but I always imagine that Thingol spent every moment until his death in a bit of a trance, and that's where the original "dreamy" state of some Elves (Galadriel XD) comes from, because they were inspired by him. Not to say he wouldn't have fallen in love with Melian and she kept him under a spell against his will, but I think her power and love were so overwhelming even for a firstborn Elf that Thingol never really "recovered" from it. So I think for a newcomer wandering into Doriath and being brought before the king and queen, he would seem vague and aloof, with Melian doing all the talking. If I had to visualize it in a film, I'd give Thingol grey eyes upon first awakening and travelling, then upon meeting Melian they'd become starry and bluer, a sort of "enchanted" look, and during his death they would fade back to their original colour (albeit brightened by the Silmaril.) Point being, I think Melian is very much in charge of kindling that relationship. A very ...active woman. Cool


erynion
Lorien

May 1 2013, 8:03am


Views: 1276
That's fine - when old questions are answered, ask new ones. :3

 


erynion
Lorien

May 1 2013, 8:05am


Views: 1307
I think M&M participated in the War of Wrath, mainly because they would see the light of the Silmaril shining on Vingilot and would stay AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to that ship, thank you very much.

 


sador
Half-elven


May 1 2013, 8:45am


Views: 1304
Turin, of course.

Arguably, Luthien was also enchanted by Beren, and in her own way Erendis loved Aldarion.
If you want a male elf as subjectof admiration, you have to go to the movie-board. Or else to the Athrabeth, whein Aegnor is greatly loved by Andreth.

I suspect the reason Tolkien's males are usually not desrcibed as objects of love, is simply because he wrote so little from the female point of view. A shame, perhaps, but it is what it is.




And no, thank, I'm confortable enough in my suit and tie. If my wife ever catches me conversing with other females wearing a kilt, not even the excuse that I was just intimidating them would serve. Pirate


sador
Half-elven


May 1 2013, 9:19am


Views: 1306
A few comments

What confuses me is that it's said they were raised by the Sons of Fëanor, but I don't quite understand how that works. Surely Maedhros and Maglor lived secluded from all the other Elves that were left in Middle Earth, seeing as they had repeatedly attacked them for the Silmarils.
Well, I am pretty sure that the Feanorians had many followers of their own, and seeing that their dwelling-place was never conquered and ransacked by the Enemy, they might actually have had the greatest following among the Elvish leaders of Beleriand (with the possible exceptiion of Cirdan).
The people in the Havens of Sirion were actually attacked twice - as many of them were actually fugitives from Doriath (and others of Gondolin).

None of the Elves at the Havens would have welcomed the Fëanorians or hear any news from them, so chances are they thought Elrond and Elros were dead.
I don't think so. They probably fought under Eonwe's banner (after all, if they weren't around, the Valinor Teleri wouldn't have refused to join in). They probably heard of them.

Gil-galad. It says that his father (be it Fingon or Orodreth) sent him to stay with Círdan to be safe
This works with the Fingon lineage, but not with the Orodreth one. Why would Orodreth send Gil-galad away, but keep Finduilas by his side? It's not as if she was expecting Gwindor to return (yes, I know the timeline is different, but even after the Bragollach she could have stayed with him) - and actually, Nargothrond survived the Nirnaeth, while the original Havens were sacked the year after it. Cirdan offered no better safety than Nargothrond did (but definitely more than Hithlum).
The fact that Tolkien considered at a time to keep the story of Gil-galad at Cirdan while making him Orodreth's son, is so flimsy it might actually have been one of the reasons Christopher preferred the Fingon parentage for the published Sil (he might have assumed it was evidently a not well thought-out idea).

Also, there must have been very few Noldor left at the end of the First Age, so did Ereinion actually act upon his inherited position?
My answer would be no. But your idea is nicer, nd more heroic; perhaps it is what would really have "happened", had JRRT ever got around to write about this.

I suppose the Host of the Valar marched with the sea following them, sweeping everything evil (and everything else) away as they went, until they crossed the Blue Mountains, by which time they must have finally captured Melkor and Sauron and killed "all" their creatures; enough to stop flooding at least.
I am pretty sure it was not a premeditated action by the Host of the Valar. None of the chief Valar actually participated in this battle, and I'm sure Eonwe could not cause these tumults, far less control them at will. I suspect this was Morgoth's defense once his armed forces failed, rather than get out and fight. If so, it was probably counter-productive - many of his own armies must have perished (after all, they overran Beleriand), the non-winged dragons must have suffered, and Angband itself might have become isolated from the mainland. Powerful cowards may cause themselves more damage than their enemies ever could.

Were they packed into ships that rarely landed, because the shoreline kept changing all the time anyway?
I guess they just sailed East.

Bonus question: is there any chance Elrond and Elros actually met and spoke to Eärendil during or after the War of Wrath, or did he just pass over everyone in his ship like a thing of legend rather than someone who had once simply been "Ada"?
Hardly any chance. How would this come about?




And another question: What of Celebrimbor?




erynion
Lorien

May 1 2013, 9:49am


Views: 1309
What about Celeborn as an object of love?

He always seems very weak in every way next to Galadriel, and I would think that if she hadn't made a move on him, nothing would ever have happened.


erynion
Lorien

May 1 2013, 10:02am


Views: 1296
some replies :)

 
What confuses me is that it's said they were raised by the Sons of Fëanor, but I don't quite understand how that works. Surely Maedhros and Maglor lived secluded from all the other Elves that were left in Middle Earth, seeing as they had repeatedly attacked them for the Silmarils.
Well, I am pretty sure that the Feanorians had many followers of their own, and seeing that their dwelling-place was never conquered and ransacked by the Enemy, they might actually have had the greatest following among the Elvish leaders of Beleriand (with the possible exceptiion of Cirdan).
The people in the Havens of Sirion were actually attacked twice - as many of them were actually fugitives from Doriath (and others of Gondolin).

Remind me when they were attacked the first time? I can only bring to mind the event that lost the twins and caused Elwing to flee at the moment. Which one am I missing?
I know they're fugitives from Gondolin/Doriath, that's why I said they'd worry about Elrond and Elros, because many would have known and been friends with their parents. ;__;
As for the Feanorians, of course they had followers, but if even Celegorm, Caranthir and Curufin died in the sack of Doriath, then I don't think an enormous amount of those would have survived. (The leader's always the last to die, right?) Also I'm pretty sure that after sacking hugely popular places and becoming ever more isolated from everyone and hopelessly desperate for the Silmarils, only the most absolutely loyal of Maedhros and Maglor's followers would have stayed with them. I think many may have deserted. Regardless, of course I don't think it was just Maedhros, Maglor, his wife and the twins living in a hut in the woods. ;) But even with followers around them it would be more of an isolated feeling than the gathering of refugees from everywhere that was happening at Sirion/Balar.


None of the Elves at the Havens would have welcomed the Fëanorians or hear any news from them, so chances are they thought Elrond and Elros were dead.
I don't think so. They probably fought under Eonwe's banner (after all, if they weren't around, the Valinor Teleri wouldn't have refused to join in). They probably heard of them.

I was still before the point when any ships arrived from Valinor, basically while Elros, Elrond - and also Ereinion, he wasn't that old with either parentage? - were growing up.
Because that seems a very empty time to me, a time of foreboding, perhaps, of waiting? It seems that after the sack of Sirion nothing really happened and the Elves didn't really know what to do with themselves, unable to stay and also unable (and, in some cases, unwilling) to go West.


I'll reply to the rest of your post later because I want to but I'm going to a medieval fair now *yay* ^^

But I second the question: what of poor little orphaned Celebrimbor?! Taken in by Maglor, too, or...?

Also, what of Eluréd and Elurin? Does anyone think they were taken in by animals and led to safety somehow, or did they really die in the forest? I like the idea of a memorial statue to them in Rivendell that gives Elrond the creeps on a regular basis.



sador
Half-elven


May 1 2013, 10:12am


Views: 1447
Don't underestimate Celeborn

But of course, we do not know either way. Which reinforces my point: we hardly read anything about how females reacted to males, and I'm sure they occasionally did. Smile


I think I've omitted Rosie Cotton. In the published Lord of the Rings this is downplayed a bit, but in the drafts for a several-years-after last chapter, she and her husband talk a bit about their youthful love. I'm glad LotR ends the way it does, but I highly recommend people read the chapter about these projected last chapters in Sauron Defeated (HoME vol. IX).


sador
Half-elven


May 1 2013, 10:34am


Views: 1294
Three short notes:

Remind me when they were attacked the first time?
I probably wasn't clear enough. If so, I apologise.
What I've meant was that many of the Elves at Sirion's Mouth were surviors of the attack on Doriath, so therefore were personally attacked twice. Which only goes to show that the attack on the refuge of the Sirion Mouths did not alienate that many of the Eldar from the Feanorians - as these probably hated them already.

As for the Feanorians, of course they had followers, but if even Celegorm, Caranthir and Curufin died in the sack of Doriath, then I don't think an enormous amount of those would have survived. (The leader's always the last to die, right?)
Not an enormous amount, of course; but I still guess more than any other enclave of surviving Elves.
And what a thought, the one about the leaders! They usually are (supposed to, in heroic tales) in the front! Remember how Feanor died? Or even Orodreth? I am pretty sure that's what happened to the sons of Feanor.

also Ereinion, he wasn't that old with either parentage?
Not really; he was older than Dior was, when he married, had children, and claimed the throne of Doriath.
Unless being a half-human, his biology was very different from that of Elves, in which case you can't cite him as proof. I remember JRRT wrote about the aging of Elves, but I'm not sure whether he referred to Dior.


Brethil
Half-elven


May 1 2013, 10:51am


Views: 1289
Very true in the sense of a power gradient!


In Reply To
At least, that's how I saw her. I'm not sure where it comes from, but I always imagine that Thingol spent every moment until his death in a bit of a trance, and that's where the original "dreamy" state of some Elves (Galadriel XD) comes from, because they were inspired by him. Not to say he wouldn't have fallen in love with Melian and she kept him under a spell against his will, but I think her power and love were so overwhelming even for a firstborn Elf that Thingol never really "recovered" from it. So I think for a newcomer wandering into Doriath and being brought before the king and queen, he would seem vague and aloof, with Melian doing all the talking. If I had to visualize it in a film, I'd give Thingol grey eyes upon first awakening and travelling, then upon meeting Melian they'd become starry and bluer, a sort of "enchanted" look, and during his death they would fade back to their original colour (albeit brightened by the Silmaril.) Point being, I think Melian is very much in charge of kindling that relationship. A very ...active woman. Cool






Yes, Melian definitely has the power, as it were...and as I said certainly could have said NO but didn't! We will be covering her more in Mac's Sil chapter and I am looking forward to the insights. Thingol's decisions based on 'the widom of Melian' and the (I think) almost trance-like and obsessive need to hold on to what he has...well we all know it never leads to good with JRRT. It's a lopsided relationship at any rate!

**BTW have fun at the fair!!!** Smile

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on May 1 2013, 10:53am)


Brethil
Half-elven


May 1 2013, 10:56am


Views: 1297
Triple digits again...!

Sweet isn't it? And this thread, like the road, might go on and on, it such a rich topic! (In was going to subject DDD, but that looks a bit suspect, doesn't it?)Cool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


May 1 2013, 10:58am


Views: 1288
Yeah, we got this!


In Reply To
are fantastic! This business will boom! Wink




Coolest Board indeed! **high five**

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


May 1 2013, 1:13pm


Views: 1267
Celebrimor...hmmm

Well, after his father rode away I guess he had the family bug for crafting and began to study fine smithing with the Noldor. We know he went with them after the destruction of Beleriand to Eregion. We read that the Noldor there finally established a colony, It sounds like they might have been neighbors to or mixed with displaced Teleri from both Doriath and from Lindon, who fled from the new shoreline in fear (but who ever after dream of the sea). With Khazad Dum nearby they had good relations with the Dwarves (Durin's House), so part of me thinks as one of their great smiths Celebrimor learned from them, especially since they become the Jewel Smiths and of course they would have gotten raw materials from the Dwarves and discussed their working. I can picture him working with the Dwarven smiths and learning how they work the jewels they mine; its a nice picture, and I would guess he was therefore an open-minded Noldor and not snotty like Caranthir. I wonder if they shared any secrets of Mithril with him?

These Elves must have been a sad people, I think, having survived so much.

Celebrimor was estranged and had rejected his father's deeds, and never took the Oath so it seems he was not under the shadow of the House of Feanor personally...and yet, as the maker of the Three Feanor's grandson.... the hand of Feanor is still in the mix, isn't it?

I found Celebrimor referenced twice in Letters, and I get a picture of far-off sadness:
Letter #96 (Where, among other topics, JRRT holds forth on the lost magic of Eden in the minds of today) About Celebrimor he says: "There are two quite diff. emotions: one that moves me supremely and I find small difficulty in evoking: the heart-racking sense of the vanished past... and the other the more 'ordinary' emotion, triumph, pathos, tragedy of the characters...A story must be told or there is no story, yet it is the untold stories that are the most moving. I think you are moved by Celebrimor because it conveys a sudden sense of untold stories: mountains seen far away, never to be climbed, distant trees ... never to be approached...(unless in Paradise...)
He also mentions in Letter #276 that Celebrimor's story really isn't a Sil tale (discusses 'backwriting' the Sil here, post LOTR, and firming up the confusing dates and connections in 1965.)

The lost magic of Eden - interesting lead-in to the Ringmaker. I see the fear, loss and masterful skills of Feanor extending into the future here, as the Exiles want to preserve Arda in a manner closest to what they lost by leaving the Blessed Realm, contrary to the plan of Eru which calls for its inevitable change and for the dominion of Men. And Celebrimor's story is meant to be a symbol, I think, of the untold vistas that JRRT refers to, as the rings hold back time but not indefinitely. And like the Biblical Fall the fall of the Elves started with a lack of faith - the Valar summoning the Elves, taking them from Arda and their place in Eru's plan.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 1 2013, 11:40pm


Views: 1273
Celebrimbor does seem cursed

Even if not by the Oath, it seems nothing goes right for him. He's a minor hero to me because he dared to repudiate his father. If those Sons of Feanor thought for themselves instead of behaving like robots, the world would have been a better place. But Hollin doesn't last very long and never seems to reach the heights of Gondolin or Nargothrond, and the Rings of Power backfire on him.

I would guess the Dwarves taught him about mithril since Galadriel's ring is made from it, which leaves me wondering if the other rings were as well. Wouldn't you make them out of the best minerals you could find in Middle-earth? Unless one was silver and the other was gold, which Tolkien might like since he tended to think in categories.


Quote
yet it is the untold stories that are the most moving.

Yes, JRR, that's why we obsess over the minor characters and the unsaid plot points of the major characters. And what the heck happened to those Blue Wizards?!


Brethil
Half-elven


May 1 2013, 11:56pm


Views: 1262
True - I remember Legolas speaking of Hollin...


In Reply To
Even if not by the Oath, it seems nothing goes right for him. He's a minor hero to me because he dared to repudiate his father. If those Sons of Feanor thought for themselves instead of behaving like robots, the world would have been a better place. But Hollin doesn't last very long and never seems to reach the heights of Gondolin or Nargothrond, and the Rings of Power backfire on him.

I would guess the Dwarves taught him about mithril since Galadriel's ring is made from it, which leaves me wondering if the other rings were as well. Wouldn't you make them out of the best minerals you could find in Middle-earth? Unless one was silver and the other was gold, which Tolkien might like since he tended to think in categories.


Quote
yet it is the untold stories that are the most moving.

Yes, JRR, that's why we obsess over the minor characters and the unsaid plot points of the major characters. And what the heck happened to those Blue Wizards?!







...with a lot of sadness - don't the stones speak to him: "deep they delved us, fair they built us, but they are gone - they sought the Havens long ago" (memory, so quote might be a bit off!!!) when they go through silent Hollin. I think it really was a bit of a sad place, even in the relatively finest day of the Noldor colony, because they were such a battered set of survivors.

Nenya is mithril? How cool! I didn't know (actually I have a lovely Nenya, Christmas gift, but Alas! I fear its just a replica...!) I just spent a while looking, but the only details I can find are where he gives the gem colors. Mithril would make perfect sense - that says something VERY cool about the openness of the Dwarves with their Truesilver, as well as Celebrimor's willingness to learn from them.

OK, here's a thought...in this vale of sadness, with Elves that have suffered and had loss - THAT'S where the best cultural friendship of Elves and Dwarves happens...hmmmm!!!

Blue wizards are still a milk-carton thing...went East in the best I can ever find (and I can only name one, Pallando, which sounds highly Renaissance Firenze to me. Maybe he found Italy?)

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on May 2 2013, 12:00am)


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 2 2013, 12:20am


Views: 1564
Rings

Yes, everything about Hollin seems sad, doesn't it? I have trouble imagining it in its thriving days. But it was certainly a great racial interface for Elves and Dwarves, almost like Bree for Men and hobbits. I doubt the Dwarves gave away the mithril, but I'm sure they were happy to trade it. It says a lot about racial harmony that the Hollin Gate was open nearly all the time, had virtually no password when closed, and was made by both Dwarves and Elves (Celebrimbor himself drew the signs on them).

I looked it up now in LOTR "The Grey Havens": Nenya was mithril, and Vilya was gold. No mention of Gandalf's ring's mineral. I hope it wasn't made from leftover paperclips twisted together--good reason to keep it hidden. But I am sure your ring, my dear, is of purest mithril. It would be tacky to sell a gift on eBay even if it's worth more than the Shire, so don't be tempted. Then again, it's a ring, and rings tempt...

Pallando found Firenze? That explains it. Once you've been there, you forget everything else and don't want to leave. Can't blame him.


Brethil
Half-elven


May 2 2013, 2:37am


Views: 1546
Thanks for the Three info!

I missed that...I just remember the gem colors so thank you for the details...one would guess Fire might be gold, for warmth? Of course like you say JRRT seemed to think in singular ways, so maybe they are all different, but not sure what else could be used - platinum? In Film I can't remember (I don't watch all the way to Grey Havens except maybe one a year, if that.) And I think even as you say - even trading unworked mithril would probably still be a big deal for the Dwarves.

Indeed of Pallando made it to Firenze I can only wonder what type of hat he moved on to then! (Pizza chef...something Harlequin-esque ...) The mind boggles.

I HOPE my ring is real Mithril CG - I could do with (and be completely tempted by) some arrested aging! (As if I'm not immature enough already...)

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


May 2 2013, 3:04am


Views: 1569
you know

 
..."brethil" and "mithril" rhyme.


just an observation.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


May 2 2013, 8:47am


Views: 1546
You know summink

Elrond must be incredibly wise and forgiving not to hate the house of Feanor. Read the Sil many times and this thought only really struck me (that I can recall) when reading this thread.


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 2 2013, 12:21pm


Views: 1506
Kilts on for Chapter 11

Discussion of Chapter 11of the sil has started - kilts on and join in!

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 2 2013, 1:28pm


Views: 1523
Mitigating factors

Celebrimbor renounced his father, and Maglor was good to Elrond. And they're all dead. Or by "the house" do you mean to include their followers, who would still be alive? I agree he and the rest of the survivors of Beleriand would have to be very forgiving after all the crimes of the Sons of Feanor.


erynion
Lorien

May 2 2013, 2:54pm


Views: 1517
looong replies - more about Círdan and the flooding, Celegorm, Caranthir and Curufin, Gil-galad, Dior's aging, etc.

Remind me when they were attacked the first time?
I probably wasn't clear enough. If so, I apologise.
What I've meant was that many of the Elves at Sirion's Mouth were surviors of the attack on Doriath, so therefore were personally attacked twice. Which only goes to show that the attack on the refuge of the Sirion Mouths did not alienate that many of the Eldar from the Feanorians - as these probably hated them already.

Ahh, okay, I see what you meant now. That's right. Well, in that case they definitely wouldn't have had enough contact with them to hear about the fate of the twins - unless someone not allied with the Feanorians got wind of the twins being carried off by them and told everyone about it, OR they actually tried to use them somehow and made the knowledge public that way. Perhaps - and this is coming to me as I write it, so it may not be thought through - to
bargain for the Silmaril with them, not knowing Elwing had cast herself into the sea! Because honestly, how would they know that? She could have just fled with other Elves, who would be hiding her, so it may have seemed like it was worth a try to blackmail her using her sons. Then, other Elves would have told M&M that they had genuinely lost her, and so later when they see the Silmaril as the star Eärendil that's how they could be so certain as to what it was?

As for the Feanorians, of course they had followers, but if even Celegorm, Caranthir and Curufin died in the sack of Doriath, then I don't think an enormous amount of those would have survived. (The leader's always the last to die, right?)
Not an enormous amount, of course; but I still guess more than any other enclave of surviving Elves.
And what a thought, the one about the leaders! They usually are (supposed to, in heroic tales) in the front! Remember how Feanor died? Or even Orodreth? I am pretty sure that's what happened to the sons of Feanor.

I did actually think of that after I posted it, they don't really command from the rear so much as literally lead the armies into battle. But I'm thinking it's possible that CC&C kept themselves out of the fight a little more
. They were never THAT eager to actually bother with fulfilling the oath - certainly they kept it in mind, but as long as they had their own realms to rule they were quite content to sit it out. (There is a quote about that somewhere, I think in the chapter where it's explained how the different realms are distributed *eyes on bookshelf*) I guess Maedhros had already lost his hand and probably part of his sanity, might as well let him take the rest of the suffering, he's the eldest anyway... heh, I don't have a great opinion of those three. ;) Point being, I don't see them rushing into battle as happily as Feanor or Maedhros (or Fingolfin, or Fingon, for that matter) so they might survive a battle unless it's a terrible one in which also too many of their followers die to keep protecting them. Not sure I'm defending this point but it's worth considering that not all the Feanorians were as valiant as their dad. xD

also Ereinion, he wasn't that old with either parentage?
Not really; he was older than Dior was, when he married, had children, and claimed the throne of Doriath.
Unless being a half-human, his biology was very different from that of Elves, in which case you can't cite him as proof. I remember JRRT wrote about the aging of Elves, but I'm not sure whether he referred to Dior.

I kind of assume Dior must have aged more like a man (didn't Eärendil, too?) to be able to take up the throne at such a young age. He was 34... if he aged like an Elf he would have been barely more than a child?
Although, to think of him as a gilded child-monarch, a little like Tutankhamun, is quite intriguing. But as you said, he had a wife and kids, so... nah. lol
In any case... what was my original point with this? Oh yeah, Ereinion being raised during this confusing time while Elves were just hiding out at Sirion and Balar but didn't know what to do with themselves, and how that would shape him as a person. Leading to the other thing you replied to...


Also, there must have been very few Noldor left at the end of the First Age, so did Ereinion actually act upon his inherited position?
My answer would be no. But your idea is nicer, nd more heroic; perhaps it is what would really have "happened", had JRRT ever got around to write about this.

I feel like he may have thought "So I'm supposed to be king... but king of what?"
If that was the case, then Feanorians may have found the lack of an active king of the Noldor interesting, if anyone still had in mind to put Maedhros in that position. Assuming he'd want to, but I doubt he even wanted to go on LIVING at that point, let alone be king after all. But SOMEONE might have suggested it in absence of any action by Ereinion. And then when he got to be king in Lindon, AFTER the WoW of course, people would have been extremely relieved to finally be under an established leader again after so much time of uncertainty.
And I think he'd be very liberal (I imagine Círdan as a very liberal kind of person, who would have passed that attitude over to his charge) and try to do everything just right, to make up for the other flaws of his family that basically led to the destruction of Beleriand which (I think) he felt responsible for.

I suppose the Host of the Valar marched with the sea following them, sweeping everything evil (and everything else) away as they went, until they crossed the Blue Mountains, by which time they must have finally captured Melkor and Sauron and killed "all" their creatures; enough to stop flooding at least.
I am pretty sure it was not a premeditated action by the Host of the Valar. None of the chief Valar actually participated in this battle, and I'm sure Eonwe could not cause these tumults, far less control them at will. I suspect this was Morgoth's defense once his armed forces failed, rather than get out and fight. If so, it was probably counter-productive - many of his own armies must have perished (after all, they overran Beleriand), the non-winged dragons must have suffered, and Angband itself might have become isolated from the mainland. Powerful cowards may cause themselves more damage than their enemies ever could.

I see it a bit differently - my idea of it is that every few hundred miles, Eonwe would have called to Ulmo to move a little further forward, having had this instruction from the Valar before he even left for Middle Earth. I imagine it a little like the flooding of Isengard - with furnaces and volcanoes steaming as they are extinguished and Orcs and Wargs fleeing from the water and its cleansing, sacred power (as neither Sauron nor Melkor ever laid any claim on the seas, they were in a way the only untainted part of Middle Earth then.) It's like the Valar going "Well, Beleriand was nice, but now it's all screwed up, so let's forget about this part and start somewhere else. Let's pretend it never happened."

Were they packed into ships that rarely landed, because the shoreline kept changing all the time anyway?
I guess they just sailed East.

But many Elves stayed behind, such as Círdan's Teleri and many Noldor, Silvan and Nandor Elves that eventually stayed at the Grey Havens, Lindon, Hollin, Greenwood... after all, Gildor says he's descended from Finrod Felagund (and how I love the idea of Gildor being a Noldor/Nandor cross, I'm not sure why, he just comes across to me that way. And I think he and Glorfindel don't like each other. But that's random. ;)) So those Elves must have stayed somewhere, but 40-odd years isn't really a decent kind of time-frame. You wouldn't build up cities as you crossed Beleriand fleeing from the sea, nor would you travel all the way to Eregion in one go - you'd go slowly, trying to settle here and there, before getting flooded again and moving on. So I think some did that, living in encampments for decades, literally displaced people, and others (probably Círdan's people) would not have bothered even landing for long after it became clear that the water would just keep rising anyway, and get aboard their own ships or be accepted on the ships of the Valinor Teleri (being their kin - some might even know each other and get reunited after literally millions of years of being apart! That's interesting!)

Perhaps in the end, Eonwe would have revealed to all the Elves that the Valar's will had been done and they had now arrived in Eregion and they could live there if they wanted to, but also recommended coming back to Valinor. And then they might have built the Grey Havens out of what would previously have been a provisional harbour.


Bonus question: is there any chance Elrond and Elros actually met and spoke to Eärendil during or after the War of Wrath, or did he just pass over everyone in his ship like a thing of legend rather than someone who had once simply been "Ada"?
Hardly any chance. How would this come about?

I wrote about how I imagine this meeting somewhere else in this thread...
:)


And that's assuming that he hovered over the entire army (which, I guess, is a combination of the Beleriand Elves - leftover Noldor, Cirdan's Teleri, Doriath, Gondolin and Nargothrond refugees, and any stray Nandor) with his ship, never touching the ground, but lighting the way for everyone and blinding the orcs, wolves, balrogs, etc. that crossed their path, thus making them easier to find and defeat. After the end of the war, I imagined this scene where the twins and Eonwe would stand on a mountaintop or cliff, and Earendil bring Vingilot down to them and talk to them that way - never actually touching the floor. (I think that's a pretty cool image, too, shiny ship with the sea in the background and bewildered twins.. *__*) Mostly he'd talk about the choice between Men and Elves they could make, but I like to think it could be emotional, too. Then Eonwe would be right there with them to advise them on what exactly their choice would entail, and to take back the message of what they chose to the Valar. I'd actually love to write that scene (and at the same time describe many Elves camping by the seashore and on countless ships, exhausted from decades of travelling and war and confused as to whether they'll have to move again) but I think I couldn't get the language right. v.v





(This post was edited by Altaira on Jun 7 2013, 4:00am)


erynion
Lorien

May 2 2013, 2:56pm


Views: 1521
I think he's too exasperated to bother hating anymore..

 


erynion
Lorien

May 2 2013, 3:04pm


Views: 1534
I'm quite proud of this thread now :D

 


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 2 2013, 5:09pm


Views: 1496
One point about leaders killing leaders

There was direct combat between Dior and at least two of the CCC brothers, and Dior killed them before being killed. Not certain which brothers, but it's in The Ruin of Doriath chapter, and my book's nowhere nearby. I think that's done in the epic sense of leaders coming face to face to duel, like Ecthelion of the Fountain and Gothmog, or Gandalf vs the Witch-King at Minas Tirith's gate.

One other bit of evidence of leaders being in the forefront is Finrod hastening to the front in the Dagor Bragollach and getting cut off with his vanguard, needing rescue by Barahir.

If I remember right, real-life ancient generals used both options of fight-in-the-front or lead from behind. It seems both Hannibal and Alexander the Great varied between the two methods, though can't recall for certain.


erynion
Lorien

May 2 2013, 5:22pm


Views: 1498
The Dwarves sharing mithril with Celebrimbor to make Rings with makes me wonder if perhaps the Elves actually found mithril together with the Dwarves? Also: Arkenstone/Silmaril stuffs.

Was Moria active way before the Elves ever came to Hollin...? I have absolutely zero sense of Dwarf history. But I do know that of course Celebrimbor and Narvi made the West gate, and Galadriel rather liked Moria, too, so perhaps Elves could have helped build some parts of it and been there when they found the mithril veins? Which would give them a little bit of a claim to it.

What I also find interesting is that upon re-reading FotR it seemed to me rather like the mithril strain sat right on top of the Balrog... and that again made me fantasize that maybe, just maybe, there was a Balrog sitting in the pit Maedhros cast himself into, it found the Silmaril and took it with it, fleeing to a less Vanyar-infested comfy hot place, ie, pits beneath Moria. There, Dwarves would have found it, and treasured it, and lost it in history, until finally it resurfaced with Thrain I, who claimed he "found" it...bit of a Middle Earth conspiracy there.


(This post was edited by erynion on May 2 2013, 5:25pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

May 2 2013, 6:26pm


Views: 1494
Balar

If I recall correctly, none of the Elves of Beleriand participated in the War of Wrath, and, despite all the confusion I referred to earlier, there seems to be a scenario where the Elves of Beleriand end up upon the Isle of Balar before the War of Wrath.

Tolkien did make a manuscript Tale of Years that was essentially a fair copy with fuller entries of an earlier pre-Lord of the Rings version. In this he wrote:

540 'The last free Elves and remnants of the Fathers of Men are driven out of Beleriand and take refuge in the Isle of Balar.
547 The Host of Valar comes up out of the West (...)
550-597 The last war of the Elder Days, and the Great Battle, is begun. In this war Beleriand is broken and destroyed. Morgoth is at last utterly overcome (...) and the last two Silmarils are regained.
597 Maidros and Maglor, last surviving sons of Feanor, seize the Silmarils. (...)
600 The Elves and the Fathers of Men depart from Middle-earth and pass over Sea. (...)'



In version B however, the coming of the host of the Valar was moved to 545, and the dates of the last war of the Elder Days were changed to 545-587. Unfortunately, due to the complexities of the subsequent versions, it's hard to tell how these specific entries, if indeed abandoned, were going to read in revision.

Using 'what there is' however, it looks like we have 42 years with respect to the dates for the Last War.


(This post was edited by Elthir on May 2 2013, 6:27pm)


erynion
Lorien

May 2 2013, 6:40pm


Views: 1480
yep, those 42 years are what I wanted this thread to cover :3

But where's the info from saying no Beleriand Elves fought in the WoW? I was pretty sure Elrond and Elros did, and they wouldn't have done so if noone they knew fought as well. And surely most Elves would have wanted to help rid the world from evil?


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 2 2013, 6:40pm


Views: 1477
Partial answer

Yes, Moria/Khazad-dum was definitely established in the First Age well before Celebrimbor arrived in Hollin, and its numbers grew as it absorbed Dwarves made homeless by the destruction of Beleriand.


erynion
Lorien

May 2 2013, 6:44pm


Views: 1474
In that case I wonder when the Eriador Dwarves learned of what happened in Doriath.

During friendly dinner chit-chat with Hollin Elves? "By the way remember when your people killed our greatest king but I guess you didn't know that because we killed them before they ever made it home... oops."


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 2 2013, 6:50pm


Views: 1473
It's pretty vague

The style of the chapter veers back to "this is history as told by Elven witnesses," and the Beleriand Elves didn't seem to participate in the war and hence didn't witness anything, only passing on hearsay to the historian. That's the reason we only get sketchy battle details, and the war is over in a couple of paragraphs.

Though it would make sense that they participated. I'd think many Noldor would want to redeem themselves by fighting, and it was a battle against Morgoth, after all, so why wouldn't every surviving Elf and Man in Beleriand want to fight and exact revenge?


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 2 2013, 6:53pm


Views: 1507
Good point

I think two enlightened exemptions were made: the House of Durin wasn't the least bit involved in Doriath, and only Sindar were killed, not Noldor (which sounds callous, I know). Normally racial grudges don't take nuances into account, but it appears the Noldor/House of Durin friendship did.


Finwe
Lorien


May 2 2013, 6:57pm


Views: 1480
Man did I miss a great thread!

Maybe sometime this week I'll have a few moments to catch up, but I doubt it given the volume of this thread. So, for now, I'll just say, "Great post, erynion!"

As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Fëanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.


erynion
Lorien

May 2 2013, 7:06pm


Views: 1461
Absolutely. And also, Gil-galad has to earn his title :3

And there's no friggin' way Maedhros would pass up on an opportunity to fight Morgoth. I mean, he has nothing ELSE to live for by that point.


erynion
Lorien

May 2 2013, 7:07pm


Views: 1431
Well, if Finwe says so.. *bows* ^^

 


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 2 2013, 7:24pm


Views: 1488
Yes, behold!

Finwe has sent good tidings from the very halls of Mandos to bestow blessings on your thread, erynion. It doesn't get better than that. Smile


erynion
Lorien

May 2 2013, 8:00pm


Views: 1470
Brilliant, I am honoured! And while we're on the subject of Finwe... ;)

Am I understanding correctly that ALL Elves that ever lived and died, with the exception of Míriel, will be re-embodied to live in Valinor eventually?
If so, won't Finwe be King of the Noldor again, rather than Finarfin?
And what of Feanor and his sons, will they be lost forever - or is their "everlasting darkness" the same place as the "void" Melkor is cast into? Meaning they would spend many ages fighting him in the darkness...


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 2 2013, 8:26pm


Views: 1449
Limitations

Good questions. I think Finwe could go back as long as Miriel did not. If she did, he'd have 2 wives, and Elves can't have multiple wives or divorce, so it wouldn't work either way. He offered to let Miriel go in his place, but she declined. I forget the reason he doesn't re-embody and go back to Indis.

Feanor is said to be stuck in Mandos until the last battle of Arda. His sons aren't under the same restriction and could conceivably come out, but maybe all the foul things they did under their Oath have won them a permanent place in Mandos.

But they're definitely not in the "everlasting darkness." Melkor was thrown outside the known world into the Void. Finwe and his family are in the halls of Mandos in Valinor. Playing bingo and golfing, I suppose, or more likely contemplating their sins.


erynion
Lorien

May 2 2013, 8:47pm


Views: 1467
I read that Finrod re-embodies "soon" after his death... what exactly does that mean?

Does he get to greet Galadriel when she finally comes back to Valinor?
How about everyone else, how long to they have to wait, or do they even get to choose when to get reincarnated?
Is it said whether they get reborn literally, as in grow up again, or is it more like Glorfindel - just waking up again one day as you were the day you died?

Sorry, I'm actually bombarding all the question that come to my mind right now. Hope nobody minds. ^^


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 2 2013, 8:52pm


Views: 1417
Can answer Finrod part

Yes, The Silmarillion says that he walks in Valinor with his father (Finarfin). So he would be there to welcome Galadriel home. I get the impression that because he was a decent person, he got to be reincarnated rather quickly, but just my impression. But I don't know the rules or how the rest works.


(This post was edited by CuriousG on May 2 2013, 8:52pm)


erynion
Lorien

May 2 2013, 8:54pm


Views: 2255
I suppose there aren't really any rules - with active gods, you can just make it up as you go along, because they can do anything.

That reminds me of something totally different - what's the deal with the Vanyar? Why do they spend more time with the Valar than with other Elves? It seems like they're a group all the other Elves would look up to.


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 2 2013, 11:19pm


Views: 2233
Now some book passages to back things up

"Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman."

"After the end of the First Age the power and wealth of Khazad-dum was much increased; for it was enriched by many people and much lore and craft when the ancient cities of Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains were ruined at the breaking of Thangorodrim."

Doriath: "There fell Celegorm by Dior's hand, and there fell Curufin, and dark Caranthir; but Dior was slain also, and Nimloth his wife, ..."


Brethil
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 2:47am


Views: 2219
Nice conspiracy idea Erynion...!


In Reply To

What I also find interesting is that upon re-reading FotR it seemed to me rather like the mithril strain sat right on top of the Balrog... and that again made me fantasize that maybe, just maybe, there was a Balrog sitting in the pit Maedhros cast himself into, it found the Silmaril and took it with it, fleeing to a less Vanyar-infested comfy hot place, ie, pits beneath Moria. There, Dwarves would have found it, and treasured it, and lost it in history, until finally it resurfaced with Thrain I, who claimed he "found" it...bit of a Middle Earth conspiracy there.




granted its in Film, but that Arkenstone looks more than half like a Silmaril to me...! Wink

And perhaps if you want to discuss Dwarven history one of these days you will have to begin another one of these lovely inquiry threads! I think this one has earned you a cookie..






.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


malickfan
Gondor

May 4 2013, 10:28am


Views: 2248
No worries I struggle to remember my own username half the time


Quote
'Macfalk, if you're reading this: why didn't Cirdan ever have a son?


Maybe he was too busy admiring his beard in the mirror.

Or on a more serious note:

'As the weight of the years, with all their changes of desire and thoughts, gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar, so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change. This the Eldar mean when they speak of their spirits consuming them…’

(Morgoth’s Ring, The Later Quenta Silmarillion II)

i.e he got a little grumpy in old age

Thanks for the offer Curious but I don't need a kilt, my boxers are plenty roomy enough thank you.

And believe it or not I actually made that essay on Cirdan EVEN LONGER! Posted on my old blog if anyone is interested (I wouldn't advise reading it in one sitting!):

http://paulashwellreviews.wordpress.com/...e-tolkien-fans-only/


Containing:
  • An short essay exploring his origins as a character and the meaning of his name
  • An chronological overview of the History and actions of Círdan the Shipwright in the first Three Ages, his personality and actions, and the reasons why I consider him such a great character and personal favourite.

And Discussions of the following closely related matters:
  • The date of his departure from Middle Earth
  • His Age at the time of the Fourth Age
  • His mysterious beard and aged appearance
  • Whether he was an ‘Elve of the Awakening’.
  • His portrayal in screen adaptations (Yes he is in LOTR!)

Is there anyway I could submit this essay to Greenbooks?

‘As they came to the gates Cirdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and we was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said ‘All is now ready.’

Perhaps the most fascinating Individual in Middle Earth



Brethil
Half-elven


May 4 2013, 2:10pm


Views: 2198
Thank you for this Malickfan!

Will be working outside for a while but looking forward to reading your ideas; I think I have read some of your posts about this before, but am looking forward to the EE! Wink

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Felagund
Lorien


May 11 2013, 4:19pm


Views: 2136
the 'inland city' & Hyarmenor

I've wondered the same as you, about whether there were Númenórean colonies in Hyarmenor / South-land / Dark Land and whether these survived the Change of the World. The only vaguely relevant reference I can dig up is from Daphne Castell's 1966 interview with Tolkien, in which he said:

Well, Berúthiel went back to live in the inland city, and went to the bad (or returned to it — she was a Black Númenórean in origin, I guess). She was one of these people who loathe cats, but cats will jump on them and follow them about — you know how sometimes they pursue people who hate them? I have a friend like that. I'm afraid she took to torturing them for amusement, but she kept some and used them: trained them to go on evil errands by night, to spy on her enemies or terrify them.

This material suggests that there was some kind of Black Númenórean settlement other than the coastal city of Umbar. It may have been located in the depths of Harad, or even further south and east, in Hyarmenor. The 'inland' bit is a bit odd though, as you'd think that the Númenóreans would have preferred the coast for their colonies - as with Umbar, Pelargir & Vinyalondë / Lond Daer.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 11 2013, 5:34pm


Views: 2152
The inland city - Osgiliath?


In Reply To
I've wondered the same as you, about whether there were Númenórean colonies in Hyarmenor / South-land / Dark Land and whether these survived the Change of the World. The only vaguely relevant reference I can dig up is from Daphne Castell's 1966 interview with Tolkien, in which he said:

Well, Berúthiel went back to live in the inland city, and went to the bad (or returned to it — she was a Black Númenórean in origin, I guess). She was one of these people who loathe cats, but cats will jump on them and follow them about — you know how sometimes they pursue people who hate them? I have a friend like that. I'm afraid she took to torturing them for amusement, but she kept some and used them: trained them to go on evil errands by night, to spy on her enemies or terrify them.

This material suggests that there was some kind of Black Númenórean settlement other than the coastal city of Umbar. It may have been located in the depths of Harad, or even further south and east, in Hyarmenor. The 'inland' bit is a bit odd though, as you'd think that the Númenóreans would have preferred the coast for their colonies - as with Umbar, Pelargir & Vinyalondë / Lond Daer.



Well, Berúthiel was the wife of King Falastur of Gondor, the first Ship-king. The inland city was most likely Osgiliath, capital city of Gondor at that time, or Minas Anor (Minas Tirith).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Felagund
Lorien


May 12 2013, 11:36am


Views: 2161
some thoughts on the Osgiliath theory

We're merrily into the arcana now - I love the Reading Room!

I've come across the Osgiliath theory before, not least in the awesome essay by Lalaith on Umbar, which can be found here:

http://lalaith.vpsurf.de/Tolkien/Fr_Umbar.html

Plausible but I'm still slightly leaning towards the 'inland city' being somewhere in Harad or Hyarmenor. If Berúthiel went 'back' to the 'inland city', it implies she'd lived there before. It's certainly conceivable that she'd dwelt in Osgiliath previously - her wedding to Tarannon Falastur presumably took place there, as it was then the capital of Gondor. However, in the Castell interview Tolkien compares Berúthiel to Skadi - a giantess in Norse mythology - who, having got fed up living by the sea with her new husband, went back to live in Jotunheim - ie. the home of the giants. If the analogy is followed through, there's an implication that Berúthiel too went home, back among the Black Númenóreans.

I admit this is hardly conclusive nor indisputably canonical!

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 13 2013, 12:44am


Views: 2113
An inland city in Umbar (or elsewhere) is a possibility...

...We just don't have enough information to say for sure. Certainly not enough to come up with a specific name.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


wildespace
The Shire

Jun 9 2013, 9:36am


Views: 2155
Interesting ideas about the sea advancing with the army, or even on purpose by Ulmo

but I very sure that's not how it happened. I get a clear message from Tolkien that the flooding was catastrophic, and was the result of the struggles of the army with Morgoth. Think tectonic activity, with earthquakes and the movement of (Middle-)earth's crust, that caused the sea to rush in. I don't think it was anyone's goal to flood Beleriand (although it does resonate with Noah's Flood, i.e. purging the wickedness).

Recall that the land and water changed before that too, in the struggles of the Valar with Morgoth.