The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Will Dáin be worthy of being called King? (***spoilers***, naturally)



Roheryn
Tol Eressea

Feb 18 2013, 7:21am


Views: 1633
Will Dáin be worthy of being called King? (***spoilers***, naturally)

I’ve been wondering whether we, the audience, will find Dáin sufficiently likeable by the end of Bo5A so that we don’t strenuously object to his being crowned King. (Anyone else bringing a pocketful of rotten tomatoes to TABA, just in case?) After all, he’s getting the prize that poor Thorin has worked so hard towards, for so long. Most of us are somewhere between sympathetic towards Thorin and completely in love with him. I realize that at some point we (along with Bilbo and probably a few of the other Dwarves too) are going to be wanting to give Thorin a very firm kick up his backside as he succumbs to the dragon-sickness, but he redeems himself in the end, and I think we'll forgive him just fine. It’s going to be hard accepting that he doesn’t live to fulfil the dream that has consumed him for so long, and that Dáin -- this character that we barely know – gets the ultimate prize instead.

But that problem – whether Dáin is or isn’t fit to be king in our eyes – might be the less interesting question. More interesting, perhaps, is whether Dáin will be worthy of being called king in the eyes of the surviving members of the Company. They obviously are familiar with him already, given that Dwalin asks about him in Bag End, and maybe he is someone they already know and respect. But will he be able to earn enough respect to be called their king? I wonder if Balin’s line in his narration of the Battle of Azanulbizar is actually a bit of foreshadowing (“There is one that I could call king”) – will Balin and the rest of the company be able to say the same thing of Dáin? Or will they too feel like Dáin is something of a usurper? How heroic does Dáin have to be, and can he achieve this in the Bo5A? Will the surviving members of the Company be able to follow Dáin with the same love and loyalty that they showed to Thorin, or is Thorin such a charismatic leader that they could never follow someone else with the same devotion? And will the loss of Thorin ultimately be what motivates Balin, Oín, and Ori to leave Erebor and seek Moria instead? I think this issue – whether the surviving members of the Company can and do accept Dáin as king (and if so, why) – is one that PJ needs to handle carefully, in part because he's set up so clearly how the Company feel about Thorin (i.e., he is their king not just because of birthright, but because he has earned the right to be king).

Curious to see your thoughts on this!


imin
Valinor


Feb 18 2013, 11:28am


Views: 1030
Did you accept it in the book?

If you did then you will probably be alright, if not then you probably won't in the movie i would imagine.

For me as i know its going to happen and i quite like the little we are told of Dain i don't have a problem. I just hope his character in the movie is good and they don't try and over do it with him as they know he will become the king.

I think Dain was just as charismatic a leader and his feats from Azanulbizar would have gone a long way to helping this, but obviously in the movie they messed with that so might make it harder.

I also don't think it's Thorin being killed that motivates Balin to try and retake Moria. I think they went to try and reclaim Moria as they felt it could now be done - previously they didn't really think Erebor could be re-taken but it was - this is going off the books. For the film i have no idea as changes made in film 1 have repercussions further down the road for the ending of film 3.


alienorchid
Lorien


Feb 18 2013, 1:21pm


Views: 970
One way it could be handled

is to show Dain as being a fair, just and worthy leader in comparison to Thorin's sickness. Maybe showing that Dain is more concerned about the safety and survival of his people than about the gold and treasures. That way both the audience and the remaining members of the company could almost feel relieved that Dain is King Under the Mountain, even though they will be heartbroken that Thorin is gone.

I'm thinking here about Balin's comment to Thorin in Bag End where he says that the life Thorin built for them in the Blue Mountains is worth more than any gold or treasure (can't remember the exact quote - I've only seen it 5 times!). Still, like you say, it might not be enough for Balin and those closest to Thorin. Even though they may support Dain as the King, they might have the same kind of feelings as Frodo when he returns to the Shire - that Erebor is saved, but not for them.


arithmancer
Grey Havens

Feb 18 2013, 1:53pm


Views: 970
Doubt it will be a problem *spoilers*

In the book I accepted this without difficulties. I did somewhat resent that this new character wound up King under the Mountain, but at the same time recognized that Erebor is not the United States. Their Kings are hereditary, not elected, and Dain was apparently next in line. Wink

So my guess is that I will again be accepting of this, if not delighted by it. Possibly the fact that I care a great deal more for movie Thorin will make it worse. On the other hand, it seems equally possible that filmmakers who managed to make Thorin so compelling, may cause me to like Dain a good deal more than I expect...

Touching on a related point: In other threads people have suggested Tokien cavalierly killed them off to give the throne to Dain. This could also have an impact on how Dain's becoming King is perceived by us. Does anyone know whether Fili and Kili would have been considered "in line"?

I ask because in some human societies with hereditary monarchies, they would not be eligible because they are related through the female line (sons of Thorin's sister Dis). While we have the example of Rohan (Eomer is Theoden's sister's son), that is a different group of people, and also seems to have been a case where there was no other closely related person available to inherit from Theoden, whereas Dain is descended through the male line from Thror's younger brother and is known to the Dwarves of Erebor.


stoutfiles
Rohan


Feb 18 2013, 2:31pm


Views: 959
Anything is better than Thorin

Book Thorin, that is. Book Thorin is a jerk. I'm not sure that Movie Thorin cares about being King that much. Technically he's still the King right now. All he cares about is reclaiming the mountain for his people.

The fact that Dain gets the title is irrelevant; Thorin succeeds and we should be happy for him. Sad that it took the lives of Fili and Kili to make it happen, though. They never should have been in that battle, they were too young.


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Feb 18 2013, 3:05pm


Views: 918
This will be what makes it work

As you said, when Dain becomes king and displays the "fairness" juxtaposed to Thorin's dragon sickeness. Thorin comes to his senses on his deathbed in that scene with Bilbo but too late to fix the rest, although he makes it right with Bilbo. Dain really will do that in the movie, recognizing that both Bard and Thranduil played an important part and giving back to them some of what is theirs. I think that and the honoring of Thorin in the funeral scene where they entomb him in Erebor (OMG I can just see that scene now and it brings tears to my eyes). That is going to be terrific. I think Dain will really shine in that scene.


Súlimë
Rivendell


Feb 18 2013, 3:32pm


Views: 896
King Dain

Personally, as long as they show Dain properly grieving for Thorin's and Fili's and Kili's deaths, I don't mind that he becomes king. Bonus points for Dain if there is a hint of surprise from him as if he has not thought of the subject before when they bow to the new king.

I think it's a matter of necessity -- no one wants Thorin and his heirs to die, but when that happens, the crown has to go the next-in-line dwarf, who fortunately is at least a worthy dwarf.

Extra bonus points for Dain if he acknowledges the fact and says something along the line of "it should have been yours" at Thorin's grave.


Old Toby
Grey Havens


Feb 18 2013, 4:06pm


Views: 880
It's hard to say at this point

Certainly as far as the book characters go, I didn't care that 1) Thorin died and 2) that Dain became King, mostly because these characters just aren't fleshed out enough to care about them. The movie Thorin, however, is another matter entirely. I'm admittedly one of those who adore him, so yeah, I'll be heartbroken when I see what I know will happen to him on the screen. As for Dain, so far he's not even a character, except for the brief mention that he didn't support the dwarves' quest, which didn't endear him to me.

PJ knows how to make book characters come to life, and I don't doubt he will make Dain at least likeable, if not more so. And I think he will be King mostly because that's the way the succession line goes more than the garnering of respect and admiration as was afforded Thorin. I can't imagine, and would certainly hope it never happens, that we will so come to hate Thorin that we don't care that he doesn't get rewarded with what he deserves after all his efforts. I know, from my own personal skewed point of view, that Dain has a very high bar to top on this one.

I might add that I for one never thought that what Bilbo did with the Arkenstone was necessarily the right thing to do. I don't believe the townfolk were entitled to the dwarves' gold simply because Smaug destroyed their town. They were content enough with the dwarves' presence before the dragon came, it seems, unless I'm not remembering things right. And Thranduil....there's another one I never cared for. I guess I'm just seeing things from the wrong side of the river. But that's my take on it.

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


Old Toby
Grey Havens


Feb 18 2013, 5:00pm


Views: 851
A clarification

(and a digression) Of course I do think that the townsfolk and Thranduil should have been awarded something for their part in the war, but coming to demand this with an armed force to me isn't the way to go about it.

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


Angharad73
Rohan


Feb 18 2013, 5:42pm


Views: 847
It depends on how this is handled in the movie

Right now, I do not like Dain at all.

I did not like him much in the book. Even though book!Thorin is a bit of a jerk, I still wanted him to become King under the Mountain because he was the one who did go to the trouble of trying to reclaim Erebor, even if it all went wrong in the end. Dain just marched in there, and suddenly he was king. But his character is a bit of an unknown, so there might be a bit of a loophole in there for me. And ultimately, I did not care about book!Thorin as much as I care about movie!Thorin, and Fili and Kili were barely even there in the book.

In the movie, I like him even less. I like Thorin, and I like Fili and Kili (and having either on the throne in the end would be far more palatable to me than Dain), and the way movie!Thorin states that the Dwarves of the Iron Hills will not come says a lot to me. So far, it seems to me that Dain can't be bothered to help, yet in the end he reaps the rewards. But we haven't seen him at all in the movie, so I cannot really say yet whether I will be ok with him bein king in the end or not. He has to convince me, and he'll have to work hard for it Wink The whole thing hinges on how the character turns out when we do get to see him. Will he explain why he did not help movie!Thorin - if so, are his reasons good? Is he going to acknowledge that he, by rights, should not be king of Erebor or will he just take it as his right? There are a lot of question marks, at the moment.

Personally, I doubt that I'll be ok with Dain in the end. I like movie!Thorin far too much. But I'll give Dain a chance.


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Feb 18 2013, 6:21pm


Views: 854
Why PJ has done the dirty on Dain in AUJ is a bit of a mystery...

He has basically stolen Dain's own thunder to build up Thorin's hero status:

According to canon, it was Dáin's father, Náin, who was also killed by Azog during the Battle of Nanduhirion before the gates of Moria, Unlike Thorin, Dáin actually did avenge his father, slaying Azog in single combat. He was a very young Dwarf at the time (only 32, while Dwarves reach maturity, or "battle-readiness" at the age of 30), and this was heralded as a magnificent feat. Dáin alone looked past the gate into Moria, and knew that it was impossible for the Dwarves to return at that time, and dissuaded Thrain II from attempting to occupy Moria. In the Bo5A, of course, he answered Thorin's call for aid and eventually died during the War of the Ring, defending the fallen body of his ally King Brand of Dale.

What's not to like about this Dwarf as Tolkien wrote him????

But in the PJ-verse Thorin has to have all the sympathy, and Dain is in danger of attracting the haters through misrepresentation! Bad enough that he wasn't introduced in the Moria flashback, but he's also been dissed further through PJ writing in the refusal to join the Erebor quest.

If Dain is to win the uninitiated audience over in TABA he's got his work cut out, no thanks to the scriptwriters... Unsure


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






ShireHorse
Rohan

Feb 18 2013, 7:57pm


Views: 810
Yes, I'm wondering why

the scriptwriters emphasised that it was the dwarves of the Iron Hills who refused to answer Thorin's call. Dain has let down Thorin, one could say, even more than Thranduil in his hour of need. Both Thranduil and Dain seem unprepared to take on the dragon and, therefore, don't "deserve" any reward. Is there a good reason that PJ is playing it this way and will we be pleased at the complexities of the plot as the story unfolds?

On the other hand, both Thranduil & Dain are bound to acquit themselves well at the Bot5A and the funeral will make people feel positively about these two as Thranduil lays Orcrist and Dain lays the Arkenstone on Thorin's breast/tomb.


Lio
Lorien


Feb 18 2013, 9:27pm


Views: 769
Good point

Between refusing to support Thorin & Company (and his apparent absence during the movie's Battle of Azanulbizar?), it's seems they're setting up Dáin to be a bit of a jerk. Perhaps he will have a redemption arc of sorts as well, where he gradually becomes more likable over the course of the story and "earns" his kingship?

Which brings me back to the original topic. I'm becoming more and more certain that it will be Dáin who slays Azog in the end. Not only will this be more accurate to the book, but it will make him appear more worthy in the eyes of the audience. Otherwise, I think they'd cut out the whole bit about Dáin becoming king altogether which I doubt!

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


Rostron2
Gondor


Feb 18 2013, 9:51pm


Views: 769
I'm not sure it even matters

Bilbo is the perspective on the story, and while he might care that someone takes over and puts things right, we're not going to get any time to make much judgement about movie Dain.

If they do 'news after the events' somehow, where Gandalf comes to tell him (a year later or whenever) that things are going well, that would suffice. The book makes it clear enough that Dain did a good job when Balin informs Bilbo in his book visit.


Old Toby
Grey Havens


Feb 18 2013, 10:18pm


Views: 749
I really hope it will be Thorin

who does in Azog. I don't care if it's not true to the book. I just want to see Thorin finally be the one to avenge his father and grandfather. Dain will just have to shine some other way.

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


Bellerock
Rivendell

Feb 19 2013, 1:21am


Views: 702
I've always felt that Bard and his people had a very good claim

on part of the treasure because:

a) The dragon's hoard contained spoils from the town of Dale that had been gathered by Smaug.

b) Laketown was just destroyed by the dragon after the dwarves riled him up.

c) The people of Laketown gave the dwarves aid in their quest to regain Erebor.

d) Bard is the one who actually killed the dragon.

And you don't really expect them to wander around the wilderness unarmed do you? They didn't know what they would find at the Lonely Mountain. But it would have been foolish to approach without precautions.

Now, I'm not so convinced about the validity of the elves' claims. They seem a bit opportunistic.


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 19 2013, 3:11am


Views: 702
An uphill climb for us...and the Company

With the creation of such a magnetic and complex charactar as film Thorin PJ and Co. have racked a tremendous amount of emotional debt for the audience with his loss.

So the issue of Dain's right to the Mountain becomes less of a factor to us I think than if, in some way, we can feel good about the outcome. One possibility is that, in Hamlet fashion, Thorin's version of the DS will be so intense and harmful that only a heroic death will suffice to provide the charactar's moral redemption. I love Thorin and this will be exquisitely painful to watch, but would make Dain's sucession more palatable and necessary perhaps. I have called Dain "the Fortinbras of ME" but it's I realize it is not an exact parallel as Dain did not actively work towards any usurption and is merely an inheritor. I do not know for sure how the writers will work this out.

We have an amazing cast at hand to play it out, but can I foresee an ending that will leave me feeling anything but loss? I just don't know if I can see it. I use the Shakespearean reference because it feels familiar: having swept away an entire branch from the Tree of Durin it 's like a 'last man standing' scenario so often used by the Bard. But, does it confer the same symbolism as used (ie: last man standing is the moral victor?) No, I don't think so. Instead I think it's Tolkien's theme of the sacrifical hero; tied with his seemingly inverse idea of death as freedom from Arda and the ultimate gift to mortals.

The bitterness of our mortality having sweetness we cannot see. Thorin's ultimate reward. The question is how do you make this feel right? Let me say I have absolutely no idea right now. Like Maximus after death finding his wife and son in the field, do we see Thorin's benign spirit watching over the Mountain through the Arkenstone? Do we get a glimpse of Throin's Paradise? NO idea. Or if it will ever be enough.

Did I care in the book, as Imin asks? Yes, but not overwhelmingly; from the Dwarf side it always felt like a bit of a sour ending, especially for the boys (....lost with only a passing phrase to mark their graves) but because these film charactars are so much more complex and real it matters a lot more to me now. Evidenced by my last read of the ending on Friday being very different than my reading of it on December the tenth.

I posted in the Balin thread that I think his grief will be terrible, the loss of a lifetime. Dain may well be the legal, moral and ethical King Under the Mountain, but I do believe that Balin's great heart will simply be broken. Erebor will not have been saved for him. Moria becomes not so much a quest as a refuge from bittersweet memory. For Balin, I think of Frodo's line in ROTK "How do you pick up the threads of an old life?...there is no going back." How could Balin walk the halls under the Mountain, see anyone but Thorin in Thror's seat, walk along the terrace where Thorin pulled him to safety...and though we haven't seen it, where Balin might have walked and laughed with the little Prince? Too many ghosts. So indeed, with others of like mind (like Oin and Ori, perhaps others, which I hope means that we will see more of their emotional journey) I think he must depart, not needing to feel any ill-will towards Dain to make him leave (though not ruling that out) but not being able to face him as King. Balin is aleady beloved to so many of us, and watching his pain and his story unfold will be another mirror of grief. Another hero, so true to the Tolkien tradition, denied the ultimate victory, and who receives the ultimate gift of mortals to ease his pain - death.

I'm not sure where the other Company members will go. If Dwalin survives Thorin his grief will be savage.

It's been on my mind since I first saw AUJ and I''ve posted a lot of fragmented comments about this idea in different spots and I'm glad
(TY Ro!) Smile
to have one place to consolidate it all.

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.

(This post was edited by Brethil on Feb 19 2013, 3:17am)


Old Toby
Grey Havens


Feb 19 2013, 3:44am


Views: 671
Shakespearean finale

Lovely post, Brethil. Thank you. It's interesting that you bring up Shakespeare, as RA has said that, having had classical theater experience with the Royal Shakespeare Company, he drew a lot of his Thorin from his theatrical background: his voice, his persona, his character's tragic arc. I suspect parts of TABA in the end could be very devastating in a very Shakespearean way, without a HEA that is so cut and dried as so many tales are these days.

I love what you say about Balin, and I am with you all the way. And Dwalin, as Thorin's right-hand man...I can only imagine how great his grief will be.

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


imin
Valinor


Feb 19 2013, 4:03am


Views: 662
Nice post

and good avatar choice, very fitting - unlike mine - elf name, dwarf picture - thorin no less!

It's interesting you say your readings of the hobbit have changed since watching the movie. Can you tell me/us how they have as i think that's really interesting. Did you dislike people before but now like them, or care more for certain ones, wish Tolkien had re-written the hobbit so as to expand it for greater characterisation? etc. Also at what age did you read the hobbit and was it the first Middle-earth book you read?

As for Balin - i think that is how they will go about it in the movie - will be interesting to see if we get to see any of the reclaiming Moria or just leave it be as we eventually see him kinda in lotr.


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Feb 19 2013, 4:32am


Views: 652
I think you summed it up...

 

Go outside and play...


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Feb 19 2013, 5:34am


Views: 653
Yes the end is going to be devastating

I don't think many people fully realize how deep and enriched PJ has made Thorin as a character. That final scene with Bilbo (and especially given Freeman's ability to convey grief and loss very well) is going to be absolutely killer. They better pass out tissues before the film because it's going to be needed. The loss of Thorin in the book although irritating for some of us and a shame, was not the devastating loss this film is going to be.

I did see RA interviewed where he said he portrayed a physical manifestation of the dragon sickness and that if PJ used it it would be overwhelming. Maybe we need to see that to understand that like most tragic heroes, he can only find redemption and release in death. Either way it's going to be a barnburner of a scene. The scene with him and Bilbo and the funeral scene. I don't know if I can take it.

In light of that I sort of agree about Balin. Balin is very tied to Thorin and his King Under the Mountain. I think it will be tough for the Dain character to break that bond, even in death.

Dain will provide though an integral part to the story in his offering of peace and restoration of at least some working relationship between the groups. For Balin though I think it's going to be a bridge too far.


Thorins_apprentice
Rohan


Feb 19 2013, 7:05am


Views: 642
Dain has to become king,no matter what.

If he isn't declared king, then that is just an unforgiveable change imo.Wink

We are more connected than ever before, more able to spread our ideas and beliefs, our anger and fears. As we exercise the right to advocate our views, and as we animate our supporters, we must all assume responsibility for our words and actions before they enter a vast echo chamber and reach those both serious and delirious, connected and unhinged.



marillaraina
Rohan

Feb 19 2013, 8:41am


Views: 653
Personally...

I expect to be more devastated by Kili and Fili's deaths. Thorin at least will in some measure "deserve" his death, as a way for redemption. It will be tragic but understandable.

I can't see that Kili and Fili's deaths will be much more than a waste, though in the most meaningful and noble sense of the word, hopefully by dying to protect their uncle.

They are young and their whole lives should be ahead of them, we'll likely have seen them learn and grow and become wiser thanks to this quest. I know Aidan Turner has sort of hinted about Kili's learning curve, partly in thanks to Bilbo, in a couple of interviews.

We'll possibly see clear hints of the great dwarves they could have become in the future and it will be utterly cut off before they even really getting started. I mean they are essentially just out of their teens, they are very young.

And I actually think that is what will make Dain's ascension to the throne possibly more difficult to take, because he should only be 3rd in line, after Fili and Kili. The entire line direct line is wiped out.


(This post was edited by marillaraina on Feb 19 2013, 8:44am)


Angharad73
Rohan


Feb 19 2013, 9:19am


Views: 631
I agree! (*spoilers* of course)

As much as I like (okay, love...) Thorin, I can see that his death might be necessary as a way for him to redeem himself. But Fili and Kili? Now that's just cruel and senseless. Why could not one of them end up being king?

I suppose it's a noble death for them, defending their uncle (even though in the book it's just one teeny tiny line, really), but I just don't get why it had to happen at all. Even in the book, why could they not simply distinguish themselves by trying to defend their uncle to the last, even being wounded, but not dying. Either of them ascending to the throne would have had greater emotional impact than Dain basically jumping up out of nowhere and being proclaimed king. Besides, he already is King of the Iron Hills, isn't he? Does he just abondon that and move everyone over to Erebor? Fili and Kili's death and the resulting question of Dwarven succession is the only thing I don't like about the book...

And regarding the movie, I don't even want to think about the two pups dying. Frown I'll be over here, in my corner, in total denial (at least until I see the movie).


marillaraina
Rohan

Feb 19 2013, 10:06am


Views: 623
Yeah

Even in the book it seemed incredibly random, I almost was like "Geez, JRR, what did you have against Kili and Fili?" To an extent it almost seems spiteful(not that I literally think Tolkien was spiteful about it of course:)). Dain is already king of someplace, why does he need Erebor too?

I mean it isn't like Tolkien didn't specifically mention that Kili and Fili didn't agree with how Thorin was behaving so even Tolkien suggested they were not "guilty" in this matter, even by association. They were his kin and wouldn't abandon him but they were not blindly following him and agreeing with him and they themselves would have been likely to share the wealth in the exact same way that Dain did, had one of them been allowed to attain the throne.

I mean in a sense Thorin's death is even more tragic because of Kili and Fili's and even Kili and Fili in their own right(they are perhaps more memorable for their death's than they would have been had they lived and taken over leadership) but just on the pure issue of why and succession, it's not all that satisfying an outcome IMO because Dain just swoops in and gets all the reward and a second kingdom to add to his first.

Seriously all because he managed to kill someone at the Battle of Azanulbizar 100 or so years earlier and finally decided to get off his butt to do something for his kin at the last minute this time around, in time to be sure of getting some gold out of it?


Angharad73
Rohan


Feb 19 2013, 10:39am


Views: 513
Yep

That is pretty much how I feel about it. It seems to me that it's not Azog who is determined to wipe out the line of Durin - it's Mr Tolkien himself, at least the line through Thror Tongue


Roheryn
Tol Eressea

Feb 19 2013, 11:01am


Views: 525
Great thoughts, Brethil.


In Reply To
So the issue of Dain's right to the Mountain becomes less of a factor to us I think than if, in some way, we can feel good about the outcome. One possibility is that, in Hamlet fashion, Thorin's version of the DS will be so intense and harmful that only a heroic death will suffice to provide the charactar's moral redemption. I love Thorin and this will be exquisitely painful to watch, but would make Dain's sucession more palatable and necessary perhaps. I have called Dain "the Fortinbras of ME" but it's I realize it is not an exact parallel as Dain did not actively work towards any usurption and is merely an inheritor. I do not know for sure how the writers will work this out.

Interesting that you mention Hamlet. I was watching a movie version of Hamlet (starring Kenneth Branagh) the other night (okay, the other *three* nights, as it was too long for me to stay awake and watch in one go), and I had vaguely in the back of my mind while watching that Richard Armitage had found some inspiration in this and a couple other of Shakespeare's works. But in scenes between Horatio and Hamlet, I was really struck by the parallels between their relationship and that of Thorin and Balin. Granted, Balin (at least in the movie) is quite a bit older than Thorin, and a bit fatherly, while Horatio is around the same age and so more of a peer, but in both cases, Balin and Horatio love their respective king-in-waiting and have a close relationship with him; understand and support (though not necessarily agree with) his need to follow his chosen course of action; represent him well to everyone around them; and ultimately suffer the grief of watching him die untimely. Thinking of Balin saying something on Thorin's deathbed like: "Goodnight, sweet prince, and flights of Valar sing thee to thy rest" brought tears to my eyes. I'm not yet convinced that Thorin's moral redemption can come only through a heroic death. I'm really wanting him to manage redemption at some point earlier! Still musing on this.

In Reply To
I posted in the Balin thread that I think his grief will be terrible, the loss of a lifetime. Dain may well be the legal, moral and ethical King Under the Mountain, but I do believe that Balin's great heart will simply be broken. Erebor will not have been saved for him. Moria becomes not so much a quest as a refuge from bittersweet memory. For Balin, I think of Frodo's line in ROTK "How do you pick up the threads of an old life?...there is no going back." How could Balin walk the halls under the Mountain, see anyone but Thorin in Thror's seat, walk along the terrace where Thorin pulled him to safety...and though we haven't seen it, where Balin might have walked and laughed with the little Prince? Too many ghosts. So indeed, with others of like mind (like Oin and Ori, perhaps others, which I hope means that we will see more of their emotional journey) I think he must depart, not needing to feel any ill-will towards Dain to make him leave (though not ruling that out) but not being able to face him as King. Balin is aleady beloved to so many of us, and watching his pain and his story unfold will be another mirror of grief. Another hero, so true to the Tolkien tradition, denied the ultimate victory, and who receives the ultimate gift of mortals to ease his pain - death.

Yes, *this* is what I really wanted to get at with my original post. I keep coming back to Frodo's line about the Shire: "It has been saved, but not for me." That's certainly true of Erebor for Thorin, but also I suspect for Balin too. Too many ghosts indeed. And not just Thorin's, but those of Fili and Kili too. Surely Balin is pretty close to those two too, though we haven't seen much of that relationship yet. Good point about Balin being another hero true to the Tolkien tradition being denied the ultimate victory. He will have achieved what they set out to do, but the loss he suffers is too great for him to have any joy in that victory.


Old Toby
Grey Havens


Feb 19 2013, 3:29pm


Views: 487
LOL!


In Reply To
That is pretty much how I feel about it. It seems to me that it's not Azog who is determined to wipe out the line of Durin - it's Mr Tolkien himself, at least the line through Thror Tongue


Well said! LOL!!

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Feb 19 2013, 3:46pm


Views: 485
Indeed

They have to kill them all. Sorry to say. If they don't it just won't be right. It will be devastating and I never really fully understood the need to kill of Fili an Kili unless Tolkien felt the line of Durin had to go and it's dragon sickeness along with it. At any rate, the final film is going to be a Kleenex concession. I know I will be bawling big time.


ShireHorse
Rohan

Feb 19 2013, 5:08pm


Views: 471
But surely "random" is the whole point, marillarania?

Tolkien had been through WWI and had seen so many young men die "randomly". I used to live in Cambridge and visited the American Cemetery there several times. The place made my father, a WWII veteran, cry. The graves stretch to the horizon and they are all so young, teenagers mainly. "The many men so beautiful/And they all dead did lie."

Now, if the end is played out as a Shakespearean tragedy, Fili and Kili's deaths wiil be a shame/a pity but Thorin's death will be tragic. However, for the audience, it depends on what character you are most invested in. And Kili appears to be your character of choice, marillarania. PJ, however, will at least attempt, as Tolkien does in the book, to put more tragic emphasis on the death of Thorin: Fili and Kili will be a one-hanky for most people but Thorin will be a 2-hanky plus.


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 19 2013, 5:51pm


Views: 455
RA brings a classical intensity

to the role. All the ingredients are there for a powerful story arc. Amazing that they HAVE been pulled "from the slim volume", but maybe that's why LOTR was best made first. It gives the framework of a complex and rich world to build on with a small text such as The Hobbit. Thgough the amount of heart and detail that can be extrapolated from the text speaks to the consistency of Tolkien's basic beliefs. The Hobbit fits into the later, grander scheme because even if he was "just" writing a children's fairytale his ideas about what makes tragedy, the loss of the heros, and final redemption are all there.

While Dain isn't a calculating Fortinabras - he IS the son of a slain father who DOES succeed (neatly, almost surgically just like Fortinbras) in avenging his loss. Hamlet does succeed as well - but messily, with much loss of innocent blood and integrity and his own life, while watching those he loves die. Like Thorin. So it is a parallel in that sense.

Glad you liked the idea Old Toby. We will have much to discuss in the next two-ish years I think!
Thanks so much for the reply!

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


Marionette
Rohan


Feb 19 2013, 5:52pm


Views: 459
Explain me why

Why is he a jerk. Trying to reclaim his reing for his people doesn´t look like a reason to me.

I just still don´t get why people has that idea.


"Dear friend good bye, no tears in my eyes. So sad it ends, as it began"
Queen



Angharad73
Rohan


Feb 19 2013, 5:59pm


Views: 459
Is it really random, though?

I'm not marillarania, but I have to ask... Smile

If it had been truly random, why do only Thror's heirs die and not some other dwarf of the company? To me it's not random. It's quite deliberate. Thror's line had to die so that Dain can become king. I just don't understand why it had to be so. Why was there the need for Dain to become king?

And as for Fili and Kili's death, it all depends on how PJ plays it. Thorin will probably get a longer drawn-out scene, if the movie follows the book, as he did not die during the battle but was mortally wounded and died afterwards. But there is still a lot that can be sob-inducing about Fili and Kili, even if they are not the absolute favourites of the audience. If they get just half a minute of screentime devoted to their deaths, and it is anything like some of the fanart that I have seen recently, then I'll be a teary mess, sobbing into numerous soaking wet tissues by the time it's over. And my favourite dwarf, by far, is Thorin. But I also start bawling when I see certain RSPCA commercials, so perhaps I'm not a good example Unsure


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 19 2013, 6:33pm


Views: 456
Thank you, Imin! To answer your questions

Haha...! glad you like the avatar. Loving both silver birches and the story of the Lady Haleth brings it all together.Smile

I read LOTR first, at about 22 years old. I stayed up until 6am finishing ROTK the first time. I am a voracious reader in many genres but the intensity of that first love of the work has never left me. After that Sil, then I think I read some of the non-LOTR items, but now don't remember them all that well. The Hobbit was just about the last that I read, maybe a year after LOTR. I found a very very old copy in an academic bookshop near the University where i worked at the time. I liked it, put it aside, and didn't pick it up for years. Only after FOTR came out did I decide to include The Hobbit in the annual read. Now I have read it many more times than LOTR. It stays buy my bedside. Of course its a fast read....but I think its because of the love for Bilbo that I already had, which simply grew seeing him onscreen and "hearing" his voice. So I appreciate Sir Ian Holm very much for that.

I can't say if I wish the charactars were changed in the text. The text is bright and quick and feels like a very old "tale" which gives it its magic.

Of course an open and airy text leaves tons of room for interpretation and fleshing out in a visual presentation. Which is what we have onscreen.
And as a result I care much, much about the Company more than I ever thought I would based on the reading! My expectation of the film version was that for me the punch would be ALL about Bilbo, because I love him so much and have for so long. So I really went in with the idea that there wasn't going to be a huge emotional grand piano (haha Ro) dropped on my head because we know that our hero Bilbo's jeopardy is nil. Was just looking to enjoy his adventure, his ride, his coming-of-age. Couldn't wait to see Andy as Gollum in Riddles! But now, with what I assume is just the tip of the iceberg in charactarization of our Company already being so rich, the jeopardy is much greater and of course, assured at the end.

So the read now...is much harder. Picturing the triple tragedy, that one phrase means a lot more when you know what those boys look like and what they could have been! When you've seen them laughing and singing. The valor of Beorn, the fate of Thorin, so simply written. The line as Bilbo leaves and has said his goodbye to Thorin and the boys: "'If ever you are passing my way, Don't wait to knock! Tea is at four but you are welcome any time!' Then he turned away." The touching simplicity speaks volumes about braving loss, moving forward, so much more effective that pages of angsty prose could ever be.

Have to say I think I like book Thranduil better than film Thranduil. Lee Pace has given us the chilly side of the Dark Elves here. In DOS and TABA I am very much looking forward to Beorn. That will probably enrich how I read him as well, though he has always been a favorite.
I wonder if we will just see Balin depart into the sunset, as it were. :-<

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


stoutfiles
Rohan


Feb 19 2013, 7:43pm


Views: 442
Lots of reasons

1. Book Thorin is all about reclaiming the treasure and his throne. It's all about him, not about his people.
2. Book Thorin makes Bilbo do everything, by himself, and then gives him little to no thanks.
3. Book Thorin almost murders Bilbo, and would have had Gandalf not intervened.
4. Book Thorin considers Bilbo to be a descendant of rats, revealing his hidden racism in his anger.
5. Book Thorin is insistent that they will fight instead of share the treasure, even though some in his party do not support this idea.


ShireHorse
Rohan

Feb 19 2013, 7:47pm


Views: 435
I can only agree with some of what you say, Bellerock.

The dragon's hoard contained spoils from Dale, the townspeople had equipped the dwarves and Bard killed the dragon. But it was Bilbo and not the dwarves who riled Smaug and sent him on his rampage. The dragon attacked Lake Town because he smelled hobbit and assumed it was connected to men. And Bilbo was so full of himself when he verbally sparred with him that he went too far and made the dragon really angry. Perhaps Bilbo should have offered his 14th share in compensation instead.

And, yes, perhaps it was sensible for the elves and men to set out with their armies but once they knew that only 13 dwarves and a hobbit were in the mountain, they should have backed off as Thorin asked so that the treasure could be discussed without the dwarves feeling threatened/blackmailed.


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 19 2013, 7:58pm


Views: 433
Thanks Ro!

(In a total side note I LOVED Nicholas farrell as Horatio. Adore what Branagh did with Polonius. crinkle crinkle I'm puttin on tin foil flame proof pants here but after that Ophelia - Kate Winslet in......ummmm....Titanic? What a waste)

back to topic.........
Your comparison of Horatio to Balin IMO has a lot of validity. Excepting the different age gradient they are both deeply loyal souls who bond with brilliant but tortured and ultimately doomed companions. That is what the Hamlets and Thorins need though - plebaian and shallow friends cannot balabce their intensity or understand their needs.

How do you see Thorin going? Share your musings.

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Feb 19 2013, 9:24pm


Views: 421
We will still see 3,4 and 5.


In Reply To
1. Book Thorin is all about reclaiming the treasure and his throne. It's all about him, not about his people.
2. Book Thorin makes Bilbo do everything, by himself, and then gives him little to no thanks.
3. Book Thorin almost murders Bilbo, and would have had Gandalf not intervened.
4. Book Thorin considers Bilbo to be a descendant of rats, revealing his hidden racism in his anger.
5. Book Thorin is insistent that they will fight instead of share the treasure, even though some in his party do not support this idea.


I have no doubt about that at all. And bilbo will do most of the heavy lifting in the next two films as that's pretty much the way it's written. So I think we will see all of those things, with the exception that number one has been tweaked for the movie thorin which honestly, and maybe to your point, that it makes him a much deeper more encriched character. We will indeed care about Thorin at the end in spite of all those other things because we will attribute them, and rightly so, to his succumbing to the dragon sickness.

I believe in the end one of the reasons that Thorin is redeemed, albeit on his deathbed, is the fact that he never had possession of or wore the ring. It was taken from Thrain and maybe for Thorin's sake although he was close to the edge, he was able in the end to pull himself back unlike his father and grandfather.

I do though think PJ will put all those things in: The descendent of rats, the almost throwing Bilbo off the wall, the refusal to share with the others. That is an essential part of the Thorin we see and will make his ultimate redemption more inspiring.


Marionette
Rohan


Feb 19 2013, 10:11pm


Views: 412
Reading the book...

I do accept it.
What else, it was unexpected but fair.

But, let´s see with movie Dáin.
Hope it will be the same...


"Dear friend good bye, no tears in my eyes. So sad it ends, as it began"
Queen



Old Toby
Grey Havens


Feb 19 2013, 10:24pm


Views: 431
I truly hope we don't see a racist Thorin* *Spoilers**

even though it would follow the book more closely. I find the entire racist concept abominable, and I hope the character we have come to love and admire in this first film doesn't degenerate into something so crass, making his death a, 'Meh. Too bad, so sad" moment. Even though he'll be 'redeemed' at the end, with an apology to Bilbo, that won't be sufficient in my eyes to make up for a lot of the nastiness that might come before. I felt the same way about Boromir, actually. Yes, his death was sad to watch, but practically the entire time leading up to that point, he was out for the Ring for his own purposes. So while I was sad, I moved on rather rapidly. I for one hope that Thorin doesn't just do the last minute apology from his deathbed, but has a turn of heart at least some bit of time before that, showing us the Thorin BDS (before dragon sickness).

And yeah, I agree with you that he'll probably try to murder Bilbo. When he finds out Bilbo has the Arkenstone, his rage will be positively epic, Dragon Sickness or no! It's the symbol of everything he and his forefathers fought, lived, and died for, and he can't be King without it. So yeah, over the edge with you, Bilbo my lad!

And I think, too, that #5 will happen as well in the film.

Then again, this is PJ's tale, and he has proven to come up with some surprises while yet being able to stick to the heart of the books, so I think we'll be in for quite a ride on TABA. Bring the tissues!!

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)

(This post was edited by Old Toby on Feb 19 2013, 10:32pm)


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Feb 19 2013, 11:03pm


Views: 405
I don't want to see that either

The full scale racism. It would not surprise me though to hear Thorin utter "you son of rats". I hope not, but I can see that. As you said though PJ will have surprises no doubt. I just think the scene is too epic to take away Thorin trying to throw him off the wall. I full expect we will see the intervention of Gandalf too.

And i totally agree that it will be a tissue-fest the whole time. We will be bawling. I will be crying my eyes out from the point Thorin goes full scale dragon sickness, to his going Full Metal Jacket running out of Erebor into the BoT5A (and it is here I think that we have a chance to see some rehabilitation of the Thorin character). If Thorin runs out and saves, say Thranduil, or Bard or someone (he and the 13 dwarves) I think that will provide a substantive rehab of his character. I don't think PJ will leave it only to the deathbed scene. At least I hope not.

I hope we see Thorin take those spears to the body. If he takes them saving some of the rest, all the better. That will be a heartbreaking scene.

Okay that's it. I'm buying stock in the company that makes Kleenex tissues.....they are going to make a fortune!


Roheryn
Tol Eressea

Feb 19 2013, 11:12pm


Views: 409
:-) Musings...

I should point out that I reserve the right to change my mind completely on any of my musings, especially after someone else makes a good counterargument...

How do I see Thorin going?

Well, the simple answer is, of course, majestically. In life, in battle, in mortal injury, in death...he is a paradigm of majesticalness. That's not a word? It is now!

I also see him going lingeringly, as his death is going to take a while after he's mortally wounded. At least, it should. I really hope PJ doesn't do his usual trick of condensing timelines here: there's a chance, I suppose, PJ will have the actual death scene on the battlefield, in a sort of Theoden-esque death scene. I hope not. I really, really hope PJ sticks fairly closely to the book here. I want to see Thorin dying on a soft bed in a large tent, after his scene with Bilbo, with the other Dwarves hovering in the background and wailing with grief as Thorin passes. Balin should be close by, trying to stay composed while Thorin speaks with Bilbo; Oin should be hovering, having tended the dying Thorin's wounds; the others should be there too. And what about the bodies of Fili and Kili? Will they be laid out in honor close by? Oh, such sadness...

But the redemption thing is what I think you were getting at. Must he die a heroic death to be redeemed? I think not. We already know that Thorin knows he's susceptible to the Dragon Sickness and fears succumbing to it (Richard Armitage has said this keeps Thorin awake at night). What makes him need redeeming are the actions he takes when he does succumb, right? I.e., at this point (the end of AUJ), he certainly doesn't need redeeming (even if he did, I'd suggest he's redeemed himself with The Hug) -- yes, he's a grumpy arrogant Dwarf at times, but that's how he is. With a bit of delving, we understand why. Point here being that the actions requiring redeeming happen while he's Under the Influence, as it were. Isn't this really a lot like a mental illness? Do we as a society think mentally ill people must die to redeem themselves? Of course not; that's abhorrent. Mentally ill people need help, often lots and lots of it, but they can recover and put it behind them, or keep the illness at bay. And we have all the more respect for them and the struggle they've gone through when they recover.

I don't think Thorin's succumbing to the DS is really any different. It sure looks like a mental illness to me. I think by the time he charges forth from Erebor glittering in armor, with his Company arrayed behind him, he has recovered. His fierce willingness at that point to participate in the big battle is enough, in my eyes, to redeem him. He's over the DS now. Does he have to die? Well, it sure increases the emotional impact, and it completes the tragic hero character arc, but I think he's already managed his redemption before his deathbed words to Bilbo.


(This post was edited by Roheryn on Feb 19 2013, 11:15pm)


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Feb 19 2013, 11:25pm


Views: 387
That is my view as well

I really hope that is full on display too. His coming to the battle, glistening in armor to defend not only Erebor but the rest of the Allies from the throngs of evil. I think that battle will last sufficiently long that we will get the gist that the DS is behind him. I cannot wait to see that. I too hope his death is in a tent. i think it will be or I hope so. It should be as it is in the book IMO. Bilbo should come to, be found and not know what has happened. I hope he clearly says "I'm Bilbo, Companion of Thorin" as he did in the book, his faith and loyalty to Thorin still there even though he has yet to realize Thorin's fate.

I think Thorin will be absolutely magestic in the Bot5A and in the entire last scene with Bilbo and I think we will indeed cry at his entombment as both the Arkenstone and Ocrist are placed upon him. It will be epic as it should be.


Old Toby
Grey Havens


Feb 19 2013, 11:44pm


Views: 392
A suggestion


In Reply To
I hope we see Thorin take those spears to the body. If he takes them saving some of the rest, all the better. That will be a heartbreaking scene.

Okay that's it. I'm buying stock in the company that makes Kleenex tissues.....they are going to make a fortune!



Now wouldn't it be a good marketing idea for Kleenex to make Hobbit:TABA themed boxes for this?? You know, like Happy Meals, only on the other side of the coin. (Or maybe McD's will come out with Unhappy Meals - you open the box and inside is...nothing.) Tongue

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Feb 19 2013, 11:57pm


Views: 387
Completely!


In Reply To

In Reply To
I hope we see Thorin take those spears to the body. If he takes them saving some of the rest, all the better. That will be a heartbreaking scene.

Okay that's it. I'm buying stock in the company that makes Kleenex tissues.....they are going to make a fortune!



Now wouldn't it be a good marketing idea for Kleenex to make Hobbit:TABA themed boxes for this?? You know, like Happy Meals, only on the other side of the coin. (Or maybe McD's will come out with Unhappy Meals - you open the box and inside is...nothing.) Tongue


I even suggested in a TORN chat onetime that NewLIne WB should give away Hobbit Handerchiefs at the midnight opening of TABA :
Evil

I think a Kleenex special box (we did after all have LOTR lunch boxes, soda cans and whatnot) would be absolutely perfect!


imin
Valinor


Feb 20 2013, 12:02am


Views: 385
Another great post :)

I think it is brilliant that you have gone from thinking the book is awesome to finding it even more awesome from watching the film, i think everyone could agree that is the perfect way for it to go.

I asked about when you read it as i feel that can change ones opinion on the book without even realising it. This is just going off from what people have said about the film and then when they read the book.

I read it when i was about 7/8 years old and i wasn't an amazing reader so for me at that age the book was quite a challenge. I don't think i got all the messages of the book and being a young child i guess the narrator talking to me didn't bother me as much as it might have if i read it when older (not saying it has for you, just i think it might have for me). I never got the sense that Thorin was a jerk and along with Balin was one of my favourite dwarves and they were my favourite race of peeps in ME for a long time - basically because of the hobbit. So when he died in the book i was sad - in the way that some people here are describing how they think it will be for them when watching on screen.

I think what i am getting at is - all the characters have faces and appearances to me - though not described in the book - but as they have been refined throughout the years and crystallized in my mind, it always seems odd when someone says - now i can picture them or something to that effect as i think, 'they always had personalities and faces' lol. It's weird though as you come to realize that is all what you are imagining on top of the story so isn't necessarily there - i don't think i would have done that, to the extent i did had i been older.

I think because of all that i haven't yet fallen in love with thorin of the movie - i think he is good but i also thought book thorin was good and because i made lots of my own stuff up mentally for the other dwarves, my view of their personalities is great already, haha. (i think i was just mental or had a really over-active imagination as a kid :P)

I totally agree about Beorn - from the little we have seen of his home it looks really good and very close to how i imagined it. I am also excited to see the actor as i have a feeling he is going to be great.

I really like how your viewing experiences have complimented your reading experiences so they are kinda becoming one. In a small way that has happened for me - i don't think i can ever read the misty mountains song without hearing the cast sing. I am hoping something like you have experienced for film 1 will occur for me with film 2 and 3 with regard to the book. (i hope all this makes sense)!

As for Thranduil - i don't mind the look of him in the movie but the little he has done doesn't really seem right to me. Saying that i didn't like him in the book as he held prisoner my noble dwarves, lol.


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 20 2013, 12:44am


Views: 370
One license

to 'retromuse' granted! Smile

Yes the redemption issue is what I was thinking of. You make a convincing case; and its a case I really want to see. I don't want to watch Thorin to go too far over the edge. I'm just afraid that it might happen. Also as you say, with all things considered leaping out to join the battle is an act of heroism in itself, and the power of the DS must have faded before he makes that choice. Even Bilbo sseems affected by the array of wealth - why else would he put the Arkenstone so stealthily in his pocket? Like the Ring. So its not like Thorin is completely alone. To date I don't see anything needing redemption. And he HAS achieved wonderful things for his people in his life; he salvaged their existence. Oh dear now I'm back at square one again.

I suppose any needed redemption will depend on how much his psychosis materially affects others. If the scene between Bilbo and Thorin is the maximum arc then death is indeed far too heavy a price. Incidentally I see another thread discussing this.... will check it out.

That deathbed scene as you describe, with the boys in state...you could just yank my nails out instead. And yet its just about lifted from the text.

Still don't know how to deal with Dain. I think I'm hitting the road with Balin.

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


arithmancer
Grey Havens

Feb 20 2013, 12:56am


Views: 378
When the book was read... *spoilers*

My son has had (it seems to me) a very similar reaction to yours. He is 8 (second grade) right now and just finished reading the book. It is well above his "official" reading level. But his reaction was very similar to yours in terms of really sympathizing with/identifying with the Dwarves. He did not choose to discuss the book much, with the exception that when Bilbo gave the Arkenstone away he was so upset by this on the Dwarves' behalf that he sought reassurance from me that they would get it back.

Which I find fascinating, because I did not have this reaction. I was six when I read the book, and it was likewise above my reading level and I stuck with it despite its difficulty. For me the character I most loved and identified with was Bilbo. The Dwarves were interesting and at times funny and the reason for the adventure but were mostly important to me because they became Bilbo's friends. I was sad when Thorin sent him away, and also sad when Thorin died because Bilbo was saddened by these things. The only one I recall liking for himself was Balin, I think because he seemed so grandfatherly and this appealed to me. I think that is one reason I like the movie choice to make him older than Thorin, my mental image of him is "grandfather", whereas my mental image of Thorin is less distinct and certainly less age-specific.

I do agree with you that things like the narrator "talking" to the reader probably worked so well for all of us who read it young precisely because it is like something an adult telling us a story would have done in our real life. I recall reading a quote from a review of the book (somewhat negative review) that described "The Hobbit" as a book only a terribly precocious child could love. Which made me smile as I certainly did love it.


Bellerock
Rivendell

Feb 20 2013, 1:45am


Views: 364
I agree that Bilbo pobably shouldn't have sparred with the dragon.

But he was the dwarves emissary. He even had a written contract with them. Whatever harm Bilbo may inadvertently have caused, Thorin was legally responsible for.

That said, there are certainly better ways to approach delicate negotiations than by brandishing a bunch of weapons. Nobody likes to feel threatened or bullied.


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 20 2013, 4:10am


Views: 363
Explains the Thorin issues...(laughing)

   
But seriously, thank you so much for your kind words. I don't a;ways put deeper feelings out there.
As far as age of read,I think you are correct. Seeing that you read The Hobbit so young, and that you seem to have a very rich visual relationship with literature (which is heaven, isn't it? Neither overactive nor mental!!) explains why AUJ Thorin is so hard for you to bond with. Those images you formed at age 7 or 8 that meant so much aren't going to be easily displaced. And as much as I have come to love AUJ Thorin I also had a much later start than you did. I did not have so many important, impressionable years to form the pictures of them in my mind.

How do the more classic archetypical Dwarves such as (your favorite) Balin and maybe Bombur compare with your internal film? Fili and Kili?

I didn't have as many years, nor childhood years, to have The Hobbit or LOTR bloom in my imagination. Reading your post now I truly wish I had. It may have made a big difference for me if I did.

I HOPE that the connection happens for you, if you feel its right.Smile Just because so many of us are enjoying it. The physical appearances that are askew may be too much, but maybe not. For me (setting all Thorin hair-jokes aside) its the honor and defiance that draws me in. And it works for me in the text as well.

Let's cross our fingers for Beorn! But I think he will be wonderful. I hope he exceeds all your expectations!

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


Kimtc
Rohan


Feb 20 2013, 4:32am


Views: 447
I think a lot of it depends on Billy Connolly's portrayal.

I'm sure PJ cast him for a specific reason, and having seen him in other movies I expect something kind of gruff with a touch of "scary wild man on a boar." I don't think he was cast to come in as an avuncular sort. I see an older Dwalin, actually.

But I agree that the comment in Bag End about the Iron Hills dwarves not coming sets him up negatively. Not that it should. He was acting as a responsible king and keeping his people safe, so running into a mountain full of dragon wouldn't have made sense.


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 20 2013, 4:41am


Views: 444
The tissue concession

 A fantastic idea! I would buy stock in that company.
What an ending it will be....

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


Old Toby
Grey Havens


Feb 20 2013, 5:10am


Views: 480
Thorin's fate **spoilers**


In Reply To

I don't think Thorin's succumbing to the DS is really any different. It sure looks like a mental illness to me. I think by the time he charges forth from Erebor glittering in armor, with his Company arrayed behind him, he has recovered. His fierce willingness at that point to participate in the big battle is enough, in my eyes, to redeem him. He's over the DS now. Does he have to die? Well, it sure increases the emotional impact, and it completes the tragic hero character arc, but I think he's already managed his redemption before his deathbed words to Bilbo.


I think you bring up a very good point. For Thorin to simply admit the error of his ways on his deathbed is insufficient to garner any real redemption, I think. If he gets over the DS well before that, if we see him as he was (or is now) - the courageous, noble warrior-king - going off gallantly into battle, then his death will be oh so much more devastating! Just when it looks like he will finally attain what he had been striving for all those years, it will be taken from him. And from us. Get out the tissues already!

I think RA said in the interview I posted a while back that he looked at Thorin's DS as an addict struggling to keep it under control - sometimes unsuccessfully. So if we get to see him as a recovering DS addict when he meets his end rather than a last minute confessional/redemption, his loss will be so much more poignant. (I can just see him now in a group therapy session with DSA, Dragon-Sickness Anonymous. Okay, I had to go there.)

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


ShireHorse
Rohan

Feb 20 2013, 1:28pm


Views: 439
I've just begun to wonder

if Dain, having let down Thorin at the beginning of the film, will redeem himself by arriving at the Mountain because he has had second thoughts, rather than in response to a message from Thorin.

This would remove the troublesome detail of a bird carrying a (spoken) message to him and will make Thorin look a bit better in two ways: it's another example of his charisma as a leader and king that even the stubborn/sensible Dain has finally responded to his call; he doesn't look so sneaky when he sends for Dain in secret.

It works for Dain, because he doesn't have to be "ordered", he doesn't just come because he knows now that the dragon is dead and so is lured by the thought of a share of the treasure but he comes of his own free will to join his king, expecting trouble from the dragon still. This will make Dain look quite noble and worthy of being the next king.


emre43
Rohan

Feb 20 2013, 2:21pm


Views: 425
Going by Dain's words in LOTR to the Witch King

He seems to be a wise character. A boar-riding dwarf with a mohawk somehow doesn't give me the feeling that Dain is going to come across as wise.


Kimtc
Rohan


Feb 20 2013, 2:51pm


Views: 421
This is an excellent concept!

I know there are people here who want the talking birds, purses, etc., but that is just too hard to pull off on film. And it does go a long way towards rehabilitating both Thorin and Dain.

The other key is hitting the sweet spot in how long Dain is onscreen. He's got to be there long enough that we care about the character, but not so long that he potentially takes away from the main characters (I'm concerned by the end that Bilbo will become an afterthought).

I've been trying to think of examples, and the closest I can come up with is the Wallace/Robert the Bruce situation in Braveheart (except Robert was aroun the entire movie).


imin
Valinor


Feb 20 2013, 3:37pm


Views: 405
That is interesting

Both having a very similar opinion and then both being boys and same age.

My very favourite was Bilbo of course but the dwarves were certainly right up there - i honestly had no idea so many disliked Thorin in the book!

I love that quote from the review! I think there must be lots of terribly precocious children walking around then as so many love the book :)


imin
Valinor


Feb 20 2013, 3:55pm


Views: 411
Sounds like we are both a little bit jealous of each other, haha

you for wishing in a way you had read the books at an earlier date and myself for wishing in a way i had not so the connection with the films would be easier, lol. Funny how that works isn't it? :P

Balin for me is not bad at all in the film and i had always thought of him in a very similar way to how he is portrayed in the film - i also like his design in the movie so that helps.

Bombur doesn't look too much like how i imagined - i think he looks more like Obelix to me but i don't feel like we know much about him at this point beyond he likes to eat so that will come later i imagine.

Fili and Kili - again not really how i imagined - Kili to me doesn't look like a dwarf but i thought they were done well as they had a fair bit of dialogue and feel they are in keeping with their characters from the book just we will know them better by the end of the three movies. Thorin's death in the book always made me much more sad than the death of Fili and Kili.

I kinda think maybe those impressionable years has created a work that isn't fully what was written by Tolkien but as it is a short book with lots of room for interpretation my mind filled in the blanks. I also think i have watched so many movies that my mind pictures it like a film sometimes - so if they are running i will get wide panning shots which arc in closer or others where they are running across my field of vision but we can only see their feet for example.

I think this is partly why i love Tolkien so much, the extra lengths he goes to in describing his landscapes really helps me (and i guess most people) visualise the world and all i can say is thank goodness for the maps in the back of the book! Allows you to orientate the mountains at the edge of your mental view etc. I think when you almost watch it as a movie, then seeing the real movie is almost jarring after having a very solid view of the world/places/people. (feel like i am coming close to talking like that character from Tropic Thunder, haha).

Still i think by the end of film 3 some of the film imagery and dialogue will sneak in to my weird version of the hobbit and enrich it like it has for you.

Finally i hope Beorn exceeds all your expectations as well and you can incorporate from movie Beorn as you will to further increase your mental image of the hobbit/middle-earth.


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 20 2013, 4:52pm


Views: 414
Indeed!

 I will be very interested to see if our experiences begin to overlap more by film three!

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


GloryBox
Bree


Feb 20 2013, 6:19pm


Views: 396
That's a great idea!

For the reasons both you and Kimtc have laid out, I hope the writers use it to bring Dain to Erebor.

...one morning long ago in the quiet of the world, when there was less noise and more green... The Hobbit


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 20 2013, 8:34pm


Views: 381
It would help (spoilers)

in giving us more of a reason to like Dain. I've been searching endlessly for one since December.....I know we must accept the loss of Thorin but I don't want to leave ONLY feeling loss. If we can see Dain with a conscience and as a rebuilder instead of rather usurper-ish maybe it will mitigate it a fraction. It would serve a number of functions; I think the birds could work, but in the area of the Dain question it would be a nice solution.
Perhaps we see him not refusing outright, but being voted down by other voices....
Very good idea!Smile

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Feb 20 2013, 8:49pm


Views: 375
Dain as Rebuilder

This is exactly what's needed. yesterday on Tornlive Justin said that those that know Connolly and are familiar with the filming thus far have said that Dain just kills it and is great. I really hope we see that and I really hope it's as reconciliation and honor. To me this takes nothing from Thorin. Dain would not have taken back Erebor himself and indeed did not want to go at all. Thorin was the impetus for getting it done. But as McArthur was in WWII, a general is one thing, a peacetime leader is quite another. You need both. Not either or.

I remain optimistic.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 20 2013, 9:45pm


Views: 373
"'Descendent of rats,' indeed."

I don't see that so much as a racist remark as rather a personal insult.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


marillaraina
Rohan

Feb 20 2013, 10:41pm


Views: 369
Fan wanking IMO

And I don't mean by you, I've done it myself, so don't take it as an insult as it's not meant as one. :)

But IMO I've never heard anything about Tolkien himself mentioning that as a reason for Kili and Fili's deaths(esp given they barely rate a mention and he never mentions their youth or anything like that in doing it, simply that they did it for family basically)and thus, if he has not, it's just stuff we fans are coming up with to try and explain what basically comes across as weak storytelling to make it seem like he gave it more than thought than he probably did.

Honestly, unless there is something where he mentions it(and there could be), it really just comes across as he killed them off because he suddenly realized they were in the way of Dain getting the throne and for some reason he really really wanted Dain to get the throne.


Roheryn
Tol Eressea

Feb 20 2013, 11:30pm


Views: 364
Oh, fantastic idea!

That would go a long ways towards the redemption of *both* characters. Sometimes I really wish PJ or his allies read this board closely...


Súlimë
Rivendell


Feb 21 2013, 8:14am


Views: 347
Oh I like this idea!

That would solve a lot of problems!

And I can imagine the look of relief on the dwarves' faces when they realize Dain has come with an army to help them 'fight the dragon'. The 'our-kins-have-come' moment would be pretty sweet!

I agree about the talking animal messengers. It will be really difficult to pull off in a movie and I wouldn't mind that aspect being changed.


Macfeast
Rohan


Feb 21 2013, 1:45pm


Views: 340
Interesting idea.

I have speculated on Dáin having a character-arc akin to Théoden in ROTK; Hesitant at first ("Tell me, why should we ride to the aid of those who did not come to ours?"), but ultimately deciding to come to the aid of their allies ("And Rohan will answer!").

This would, of course, mean that the Battle of the Five Armies would feature the ride of the Boarhirrim.


GloryBox
Bree


Feb 21 2013, 6:08pm


Views: 363
Your "ride of the...

Boarhirrim"! Well done!

...one morning long ago in the quiet of the world, when there was less noise and more green... The Hobbit