The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit: Question regarding Dwarves being considered "of age".

The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Question regarding Dwarves being considered "of age".

Boromir Stark
Rivendell

Feb 1 2013, 11:58am

Views: 2557

Question regarding Dwarves being considered "of age".

I have been wondering recently about the age at which Dwarves are considered mature and "battle-ready".

At the time of LotR, Gimli is, I believe, around 125 years old. This means that at the time of The Hobbit, he would have been about 65. Now, some have suggested that the reason's for Gimli's non-participation in the Quest for Erebor was that he was not yet mature and at the age at which a Dwarf is considered battle-ready (what this age is supposed to be I have no idea, but I would harbour a guess at 70ish, since that is what age Fili and Kili are, roughly.)

Consider this though - about 150 years prior to the Quest for Erebor, a young Dain Ironfoot not only took part in the Battle of Azanulbizar, he single-handedly defeated and slew the Orcs leader, Azog. This was considered a great achievment not because he slew Azog, but because he was so incredibly young when he done it. At the time of this event, Dain was only 32 years old, which in Dwarf years is considered very young and several decades shy of what is believed to be battle-readiness.

So, what's the deal? Gimli is apprarently too young to take part in the Quest for Erebor, yet Dain Ironfoot fights in an arguably more danagerous scenario in the Battle of Azanulbizar at half the age?

I've saw some people say that the reason for Gimli not accompanying his father on the Quest was because their had to be an heir left behind to carry on the line should Gloin perish. And at first I thought "ok, that seems logical." Only, it doesn't. By that logic Dain should have stayed at home while Nain fought against the orcs Crazy

Anyone got any thoughts on this? It's not particularly important in the grand scheme of things, but it has been on my mind for some time.

stoutfiles
Rohan

Feb 1 2013, 1:47pm

Views: 1666

It was a suicide quest

Gloin probably felt obliged to go, but why would he drag his son into it? He had to know there was a good chance they wouldn't be coming back

Macfeast
Rohan

Feb 1 2013, 1:47pm

Views: 1660

Gimli did indeed stay home because he was too young.

That's how he himself explains in "The Quest of Erebor". That Dáin fought at such a young age does not disprove his statement; As you say, Dáin's feat was noted as incredibly impressive for the fact that he was as young as he was. Dáin was an exception, Gimli was the norm.

(This post was edited by Macfeast on Feb 1 2013, 1:57pm)

Macfeast
Rohan

Feb 1 2013, 1:59pm

Views: 1640

Whereas the War of Dwarves and Orcs...

...was more of a crusade, a race-wide call for revenge that every dwarven house answered. In their desire for revenge, the dwarves may have been less critical of who was drafted, instead hoping for as great a host as they could muster. Dáin's feat would be impressive still, of course, but he might not have been the only youngling present; I believe Glóin may also have fought at Azanulbizar (he is noted as having been one of those who followed Thráin and Thorin to Dunland; I'm not sure if that is supposed to have happened instantly after the battle), though he was but 16.

(This post was edited by Macfeast on Feb 1 2013, 2:08pm)

Otaku-sempai
Immortal

Feb 1 2013, 3:32pm

Views: 1612

It may be more of a matter of perceived maturity than actual age...

Gimli might not have seemed mature enough to go with his father. We don't know anything about his behaviour from his younger days.

Was Dain officially allowed to accompany the dwarf soldiers to Moria? Or did he pull an "Eowyn Maneuver" and disguise himself as an older warrior? Maybe his serious demeanor and earnestness overcame his youth in the eyes of his elders.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

Boromir Stark
Rivendell

Feb 1 2013, 3:36pm

Views: 1589

I thought this may have been the case.

In Reply To

Still though... 30 years shy of maturity is a big stretch. Perhaps Dain was just overly mature (physically and otherwise) for his age, and was thus deemed eligible to fight despite his lack of years and experience.

florian
The Shire

Feb 1 2013, 4:15pm

Views: 1582

Well, maybe

by the time Gimli was born the birth rate among dwarves had dipped so low that children were very rare and their society's notion of maturity shifted so that one was still considered a child even at 60 something years of age.

Macfeast
Rohan

Feb 1 2013, 4:30pm

Views: 1562

Good point.

With so many dwarves lost in the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, birthrates is bound to have taken a toll, and it makes sense that they'd be a little more vary about letting the next generation go out and risk their lives.

(This post was edited by Macfeast on Feb 1 2013, 4:31pm)

Fishbug
The Shire

Feb 1 2013, 7:20pm

Views: 1536

Every child is a blessing.

In Reply To

Sounds reminiscent of the Krogan in Mass Effect.

florian
The Shire

Feb 1 2013, 8:47pm

Views: 1529

I'm not familiar with this. What is it?

In Reply To

Sounds reminiscent of the Krogan in Mass Effect.

IdrilofGondolin
Rohan

Feb 1 2013, 9:47pm

Views: 1513

Have to agree

We are told that the kind of the dwarves increase slowly because women are at best 1/3 of the population and some never marry. It makes sense that they would guard their children well.

Of course this does not explain why Thorin would have allowed both Fili and KIli to come on the quest as they are so to speak the heir and the spare of Durin's line.

hutch
Rohan

Feb 2 2013, 2:57am

Views: 1466

Movie Gimli

probably would've been more of a handful than Fili and Kili combined.

Davy Jones could've been Bilbo...I mean he was a Brit with a sense for adventure, singing & dancing. And think of the costs it would've save with forced perspective: he was ACTUALLY 5'3. He also hung out with a grumpy tall dude in a hat (Mike Nesmith.) While we're at it let's just have Micky Dolenz and Peter Tork as Merry & Pippin.

Súlimë
Rivendell

Feb 2 2013, 4:33am

Views: 2081

I think so

In Reply To

Was Dain officially allowed to accompany the dwarf soldiers to Moria? Or did he pull an "Eowyn Maneuver" and disguise himself as an older warrior? Maybe his serious demeanor and earnestness overcame his youth in the eyes of his elders.

That has always been how I see the situation. I haven't read the Appendices again carefully, but for some reason I have the impression that Dain's killing Azog was a surprise attack.