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Any truth behind the rumour?



Sura
Registered User

Jan 30 2013, 6:37pm


Views: 3837
Any truth behind the rumour?

Hello, this is my first post, so please bear with me.

I have come here seeking knowledge because I can't remember this ever in my own reading but hoped someone might shed some light on the subject. I have seen several debates claiming that Thranduil was an oathbreaker/treaty breaker when he did not come to the dwarves' aid in the attack by Smaug. Is there anywhere in either letters, notes, or the books themselves where any sort of treaty or pact was made between the dwarves and elves prior to the events in the Hobbitt?

Thank you.


squire
Half-elven


Jan 30 2013, 7:18pm


Views: 2759
Not that I know of

I have never encountered in any of Tolkien's writings even a hint that the Elven King (not yet called "Thranduil") in The Hobbit had ever had any dealings much less a treaty with the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain. As the book explains in the "Flies and Spiders" chapter, the Elves were suspicious of Dwarves in general because of some dispute about treasure in "ancient days". But it is clearly stated that "Thorin's family had had nothing to do with the old quarrel".

I was shocked and dismayed to see the Elves so stupidly lining the ridge overlooking Smaug's attack on the Mountain kingdom, like a million other movies where some army (usually natives or "savages") appears all at once against the sky for cinematic effect. It's entirely a movie invention, as far as I know, and has nothing to do with Tolkien's story.



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Sura
Registered User

Jan 30 2013, 7:35pm


Views: 2713
Thank you

Thank you very much for the information. It's been quite a few years since I read The Hobbit (minus the extra t my keyboard enjoys adding) and I could not remember any such thing.


(This post was edited by Sura on Jan 30 2013, 7:35pm)


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Jan 30 2013, 8:36pm


Views: 2768
Typical

PJ fantasy.

Does not exist in REAL Middle-earth.

Period.

Like much of PJ's Versions. Crazy

The Ultimate Tolkien Trivia Quiz: http://www.proprofs.com/quiz-school/story.php?title=so-you-want-to-be-tolkien-geek


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jan 30 2013, 9:02pm


Views: 2735
What would an Elf charge have accomplished, anyway?

Other than barbecued Elf. Dwarves had been most effective in resisting dragons in past battles because they wore war masks (in Beleriand at least) that dampened the effect of the flames. My feeling is that if the Dwarves couldn't defeat Smaug at Erebor, the Elves couldn't either.

Besides, book-wise, Smaug attacked suddenly, and the Elf-kingdom wasn't next door. I don't see how the Elves could have shown up to see the initial assault in the first place.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jan 30 2013, 9:02pm


Views: 2677
PS. Welcome to the Reading Room, Sura./

 


Morthoron
Gondor


Feb 3 2013, 2:58am


Views: 2944
PJ's poorly written fan-fiction...

And having Thranduil riding a stag was one step too close to making him a Gary-Stu. I was surprised there was no violet-eyed elfess with a pink pony. Crazy

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



Nira
Lorien


Feb 5 2013, 4:05am


Views: 2791
I found a good article about this topic...

http://middle-earth.xenite.org/...n-elves-and-dwarves/

"Why, to think of it, we're in the same tale still! It's going on. Don't the great tales never end?"


macfalk
Valinor


Feb 5 2013, 10:35am


Views: 2586
Calm down... //

 



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


macfalk
Valinor


Feb 5 2013, 10:36am


Views: 3037
Why is Thranduil riding a stag/moose whatever

More over the top than having ponies, dogs and sheep serving dinner and making the tables for the dwarves?



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Feb 5 2013, 8:10pm


Views: 2573
Excellent article, thanks!//

 








squire
Half-elven


Feb 5 2013, 9:10pm


Views: 2714
Martinez is a clever man.

I see his point about the last-minute addition of the Petty-Dwarves to the legends of the Naugrim, as being Tolkien's attempt to square the circle of legendary Dwarf-Elf hostility coexisting with millennia of Dwarf-Elf cooperation. But I don't think it really improves things - it messes them up. The Petty-Dwarves concept annoyingly overlaps with that of the "tame savages" Druedain, who were also redeveloped for the First Age legends following the writing of The Lord of the Rings, and in no very useful fashion either. I feel that way about a lot of Tolkien's output in the last decade of so of his writings about Middle-earth. He suspected as much, too, I think.

I have never had any problem keeping the Elf-King in The Hobbit separate from Thingol in my head, even though I'm aware that the former was certainly originally modeled on the latter. The latter-day attempts at achieving total consistency among all his legends seems to have crippled Tolkien, and it hasn't done us fans much good either in my opinion. The stories belong together, obviously, but loosely, as it were. There's really no need for it all to be rejiggered until it meets the requirements of a Master Plan that was only devised after the facts of the writings.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Nira
Lorien


Feb 5 2013, 10:17pm


Views: 2607
I agree, well put

 

"Why, to think of it, we're in the same tale still! It's going on. Don't the great tales never end?" -Samwise


imin
Valinor


Feb 6 2013, 1:54am


Views: 2712
What is wrong with the petty dwarves

that makes them annoying for you and messes things up?


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Feb 7 2013, 10:11am


Views: 3340
The timing and nature of Thranduils arrival

made no sense, at best it could be explained as a a coincidental visit, but why such an armed host of warriors?

The elf/dwarf conflict can largely be explained by the murder of Thingol and the taking of the Silmaril. He was one of three racial forefathers, not simply a ruler of a kingdom at a given point in history. He would be especially reverential as the father of Luthien who whose life, deeds and legacy were one of the principal matters of histories according to Tolkien. Further cause of racial conflict is likely due to the nature of the dwarves creation. Yavanna told Aule there would be strife between her creations and his and by extension as the Elves are so attuned to all aspects of Arda in accordance with the Music of creation and the dwarves are excluded from this then strife naturally arises.