The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit: Yeah. . . that is almost certainly not standard variety fire glowing in The East Gate. . .Durin's Bane seems right.

The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Yeah. . . that is almost certainly not standard variety fire glowing in The East Gate. . .Durin's Bane seems right.

AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Jan 11 2013, 7:25am

Views: 1507

Yeah. . . that is almost certainly not standard variety fire glowing in The East Gate. . .Durin's Bane seems right.

And please, no arguments as to whether or not he should be noted. I'll deal more with that, and the continuity problems of not doing so in another thread, later, when the earlier one on that topic has had sufficient time to dissapear into forgotten archives.

Here I am only dealing with what may or may not have been seen as Azog is carted away into Moria. There is a mighty fire in the distant background of The East Gate, and a fearsome glow all along the gates interior and reaching back into the halls. Such dramatic backlighting is not required for Azog's removal. And it isn't the product of any small fire. No normal bonfire would put forth that much light, and even the fires on the battle field do not do so. Also, why would there be such a fire burning within the gate or hall? The dwarves had not advanced so far, and it seems counterintuitive for the orcs/goblins to have set "their own" chambers aflame without having yet lost the battle and without having themselves abandoned the halls. The glow bears greatest resemblance to what we first saw of The Balrog when he begins his pursuit of the Fellowship and frightens the goblins/orcs into flight by his coming. It hues with the appendices (much better than Azog surviving, in fact), and would, if expanded, add to continuity, but again, I don't want to discuss all that here. Merely the gate and the light therein.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

JWPlatt
Grey Havens

Jan 11 2013, 8:22am

Views: 944

The Balrog

I've seen the movie twice, and I didn't notice. I was even thinking about the Balrog on my second viewing, and still didn't notice the glow. I was even thinking, Jackson should have referenced the Balrog, but he didn't. I was only thinking narrative and not the visuals.

Even if there was a glow, there's still a chance that it is all you will ever see or hear of it. In some movies, just when you think something is a foreshadow, the director either doesn't follow up, seemingly forgets, or intentionally leaves it at that. That would be a shame.

AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Jan 11 2013, 8:56am

Views: 865

I know what you mean, and I have the same hopes as you do,

but I try to stay away from expectations. But, my next viewing of the movie will be my 7th, and I have also had looked at the odd youtube clip of certain sections, including the battle of Azanulbizar. My girlfriend has done much the same. We are both certain about the glow. The next time you go, focus on The East Gate as Azog is being carried in, or in a youtube clip. The gate is ALL aglow, as is the inner hall, and you can glimpse flames within just under Azog's thigh arm as he is being carried off. And it is a substantial glow, much more than a campfire, for example would cast. Check it out and then discuss it with me further when you have a chance,.

imin
Valinor

Jan 11 2013, 9:02am

Views: 835

I saw the glow both times i went

I just instantly figured it was Durin's Bane and then thought nothing more of it.

DanielLB
Immortal

Jan 11 2013, 9:05am

Views: 946

In the WETA Chronicles book

The painting of the Battle has very obvious fire/flames/red glow coming from the Gate. I can't remember who the artist was, but as soon as I saw that in the book, it screamed "balrog".

Perhaps there was a mention of it in the film originally, but it was cut?

AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Jan 11 2013, 9:07am

Views: 842

I saw that too.

Though in the book the fire seems almost to be on the verge of issuing out of the gate, which would suggest him being closer to the entrance than the movie does, if the movie is indeed intending to be hinting at him there. I hope the matter is further sorted, but that is a topic for another thread. Wink

TFP
Lorien

Jan 11 2013, 11:35am

Views: 818

It very much looks like DB.

It does seem to be, yes.

Earlier today I looked at a video on youtube [which I found by googling 'battle of the east gate of moria'] showing it reasonably clearly at the 3-minute mark.

Incidentally I never quite understood why the balrog would be skulking just inside, close enough to the front door to be seen by Dain, like an oversized Boo Radley, rather than pitching into the battle.

Lightice
Lorien

Jan 11 2013, 11:46am

Views: 815

There would be little point

I have no idea whether the flames are meant to insinuate the Balrog's presence or not, but if they are, I'm quite certain that it's all that we're going to see of that creature. Showing more would make nothing but a pointless cameo appearance and leave the audience expecting a confrontation with a monster that never plays into the main plot. Even in an extended film series that tries to cram in every reference it possibly can every scene needs to serve the plot in some manner. With the Balrog it would be nothing but a moment of: "oh, there's a Balrog, moving on". It wouldn't serve any purpose. If the scenes of Moria are extended to involve more details about why the dwarves didn't press on, I would very much prefer a minimalistic approach where Thrain (or Thorin) looks inside the gates, but the viewers don't see what he is looking at, and then comes back, visibly shaken and unwilling to explain what he saw. That kind of scene would work far better than the most impressively rendered Balrog cameo could ever hope for.

stoutfiles
Rohan

Jan 11 2013, 1:43pm

Views: 740

That could still happen

We may go back to the battle to learn more about Dain, and they show his reaction to seeing the Balrog.

If they actually show the Balrog I will be upset. That is a great reveal that The Hobbit should not ruin. It's like the Star Wars prequels ruining all the great reveals in the original trilogy.

MorgolKing
Rivendell

Jan 11 2013, 2:29pm

Views: 705

Right

In Reply To

Incidentally I never quite understood why the balrog would be skulking just inside, close enough to the front door to be seen by Dain, like an oversized Boo Radley, rather than pitching into the battle.

I agree...never really understood that.

Ave Moria
Rivendell

Jan 11 2013, 3:11pm

Views: 681

Agreed

Fact:

Moria doesn't just randomly GLOW that way unless the Balrog is present. Perhaps the chaos and din of the battle attracted him?

The shot where Azog is dragged away wounded clearly shows the inner halls glowing with Balrog mojo.

Perhaps a brief reveal on the EE? Wink

-In the Darkness, a torch we hold-

Arthael
Lorien

Jan 11 2013, 3:48pm

Views: 666

yeah it's a huge image

but a subtle one. if you're not looking for it, you wouldn't give it a second thought.

if nothing else, it gives the scene some nice ambiance! haha

"There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go."

xxxyyy
Rohan

Jan 11 2013, 5:14pm

Views: 618

Exactly, that would be another continuity error. No Balrog needed.

The Balrog being there at the gate, the orcs fighting the enemy and he stays right there... what was he doing?
When the dwarves won, did the Balrog flee crying inside Moria?
Balin clearly said the battle is won, so the enemy is deafeated, so no Balrog there.
I guess Tolkien himself did a "little" misstep there.
Watching the clip I see fires all over the battle ground, but they are not fires caused by battle, they are just there to illuminate things.
In Moria, at night, there's pitch black, so at the gate we see just a fire needed to have an environment for the orcs to live and fight the approaching enemy.
Also, that fire might be caused by the battle itself, dwarves could be there fighting their way in.
But the Balrog... being there rolling his thumbs... makes no sense.

http://energyfromthorium.com/

Rostron2
Gondor

Jan 11 2013, 5:30pm

Views: 618

I don't see it happening...no way

Arguments against it being anything more than a glow:

1. They don't need more backstory about Dain/Moria, etc.

2. As for glowing things and fires, that would completely wreck the surprise of the later films, as noted already

3. They can't even get swords to glow consistently, who's to say it's not just an artist putting in some detail?

4. It doesn't follow any logical sense with what they just showed us. Seriously, if it showed itself THEN it would be common knowledge in days. The elves at Lorien would know, certainly, it's on their doorstep!!!!

Dwarf: "Yeah I was at the Battle of the East Gate. Thorin did a great job and he cut of Azog's hand, you should have seen it! We just about had them running, when this huge Balrog showed up and trashed us..."
2nd Dwarf: A Balrog???? We'd better tell everyone not to go anywhere near that place again. By Aule, that's news!!! We'd better tell everyone what's under Moria
Dwarf: Yeah I agree. Let me get on Twitter and do that...
Lorien Elf: A balrog? I'm heading for the Havens. Seeya!
Saruman: A balrog...hmmmmm, perhaps I can make use of this
Gandalf: A Balrog of Morgoth...run!

Elenorflower
Gondor

Jan 11 2013, 11:26pm

Views: 532

Did anyone notice that Thorin was wearing the

Mithril shirt during the battle of Aziwhatsit?

Yva
Lorien

Jan 11 2013, 11:33pm

Views: 528

Yes!

I returned from my 4th viewing a few hours ago. I was desperately trying to take in as many details as I could, and this is one the new things (new for me) that I took notice of :) Was certainly happy to see it.

entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator

Jan 11 2013, 11:42pm

Views: 505

Are you thinking it's Bilbo's shirt?

I can't imagine it would fit Thorin. Bilbo is much smaller than Thorin.

At least in the book, the mithril shirt is found in the treasure after Smaug has been killed. If Thorin is seen with the shirt at Moria, that would be after Erebor was taken by the dragon, so it couldn't be the same shirt.

Unless the filmmakers are planning on changing the sequence of events.

Yva
Lorien

Jan 12 2013, 12:43am

Views: 496

I admit it occured to me in a flash of fan over-excitement

when I realized what I was seeing was a mithril shirt - and of course we have only seen one in the movies so far (am I right?), therefore in order to make us recognize it, they must look identical - but it seems unlikely as you're saying for several reasons. Although the size problem could be easily resolved I guess.

I think it would be just typical of PJ & co to try make the circumstances of Bilbo acquiring the shirt more meaningful than just someone digging it up in the treasure pile, but no, I'm not seriously suggesting it's Bilbo's shirt. The moment when Thorin could be seen wearing it is too brief to bear any special significance. Just attention to detail on the part of the filmmakers I guess.

I was just happy to spot a dwarf wearing a recognizable mithril shirt, plus it suits Thorin's character as the young dwarven prince. I wonder where is it now, as he doesn't have it during AUJ (I think?). Is there a way to rate a uniqueness of a mithril shirt, ie. are there tens of them in Middle Earth, or two of them, or hundreds of them, I just have absolutely no idea.

(This post was edited by Yva on Jan 12 2013, 12:49am)

AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Jan 12 2013, 2:39am

Views: 486

Here you are wrong. This "creature", or rather this fell being, a Maia Demon

who played some role in the creation of The World, almost requires some commentary, because Moria has been displayed, the very gate the fellowship is seen fleeing in Fellowship after their encounter with The Demon. A Demon which, by the film's account, The Wise already know is in Moria. The Visual Companion to THIS movie recounts that it was The Balrog which drove The Dwarves from Moria in the first place (in all the Third Age history of The Dwarves, no Dark Power is more relevant than this slayer of the reincarnation of there great Ancestor King and exiler of their folk from their homeland. . . he is not more relevant than the Necromancer to the history of Middle Earth, but he is far more relevant to Durin's Folk). In any event, even a lay viewer might be inclined to wonder what happened to the Terror that comes to confront Gandalf, and how it is that he does not notice a massive war being waged on his doorstep. . . unless he was contrived, as a gimmick and a mere tool, something to provide a challenge to The Wizard. . . but strangely not even mentioned before in connection to Moria in the earlier films in which that place features. . . ANYWAY, didn't I say this thread would not focus upon the whys and why nots (or Mithril shirts, folks Tongue

lol). There will be a Thread for it again, and has been one in the past. This one is ONLY about what was glimpsed or not glimpsed in the battle scene, and whether or not it might have been Durin's Bane (i.e. the being who drove the dwarves out of Moria, and the only real reason they could not return, even after the slaughter of the orc host).

In Reply To

xxxyyy
Rohan

Jan 12 2013, 2:39pm

Views: 451

By the way, why are we assuming Moria was not retaken after that battle?

Again, I mixed the book and the movie.
The dwarves HAVE retaken Moria after the victory at the East Gate.
The movie doesn't tell us anything about the Balrog so I'll go with the easy assumption that there are dwarves now in Moria, after Azanulbizar and up to the The Hobbit and FOTR.
We may see at the end of TABA Balin saying he will rejoin his comrades who are in Moria.
I guess the writers just need to establish that there WAS a demon in Moria A LONG TIME AGO, forgotten in memory, who drove the dwarves out of Moria but now went back to sleep; a demon who would wake up only if an equivalent power would manifest near him and threaten him (as was the Power of the dwarves digging too deep (due to (one of) the Seven Rings?), or Gandalf's presence coupled with the Ring of Power (let's add Narya too...)
I know this is a little less powerful than Tolkien's vision, but it would solve a lot of inconsistencies.

http://energyfromthorium.com/

Lightice
Lorien

Jan 12 2013, 4:52pm

Views: 430

The true nature and history of the Balrog is wholly irrelevant to the discussion.

As far as the film-viewing (or indeed even book-reading) audience is concerned, it's simply a big, scary monster. Yes, the Balrog plays an important part in the dwarves history, but he rules of narrative trump historical significance. You can't introduce a giant monster without doing something with it. Chekhov's Gun can't be left unused at the end of a storyline. It would be left as a mere disconnected reference without context or meaning in The Hobbit. The appearance of the Balrog was a surprise in the FotR, both in the book and the film, and there is no reason why it shouldn't remain so. The dwarves did not know what the Durin's Bane was, exactly, and did not find out until Gandalf's confrontation with the thing. There's no point in revealing it to the audiences beforehand.

ryouko
Lorien

Jan 12 2013, 5:16pm

Views: 425

come to think of it

I do recall seeing the glow, but didn't think anything of it. Just thought it was fires that were set somewhere. I'll take a better look at it when I see it tomorrow.

MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea

Jan 12 2013, 5:52pm

Views: 420

its clearly the balrog....

the first time time i saw AUJ i thought there is no way that its just goblins inside lighting fires plus goblins really aren't fans of fires they prefer darkness. The one thing is. if the balrog is that close to the gate....it seems like it would be around where Gandalf confronted it in FOTR. The goblins fear the balrog so i wonder where they went if it was so close?? Anyways i'm hoping we get to see more Moria in either DOS or TABA!

take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty, oh will you please take me home!!

MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea

Jan 12 2013, 5:55pm

Views: 423

the dwarves retook Moria?

i thought they won the battle and Dain ventured into Moria and saw the balrog than told his people not to enter?

take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty, oh will you please take me home!!

AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Jan 12 2013, 6:00pm

Views: 408

Not entirely true, dear sir

Totally aside from the great significance of the Demon's history as the great Terror of Durin's Folk. . . "that which haunts our darkest nightmares" is how Gimli essentially put it, there is the in movie continuity. It is very sloppy to bring up Moria in these films with no mention or inkling that a Demon dwells there (pretty relevant information one would think), and then have the damn thing pop up in Fellowship as though he had always been there, complete with explicit commentary from one Wizard about its long residency there and on another Wizard's grim mood over the knowledge and subsequent fear to enter Moria in the first place. It seems out of the blue and entirely contrived. A boss level gimmick straight out of a video game. Those who view the movies sequentially, and are more than half attentive, will ask, "Well where the hell did this Lord among Fiends come from? Never heard about him in connection to this place when it was shown and repeatedly mentioned in the earlier films Unimpressed

." Those viewing in backwards compatability will see the East Gate of Moria and think. . . "Hey. . . isn't this where that Demon lives. . ."

They don't need to give him a starring role. Nor should they. But some allusion and mention, if only for the sake of seamless continuity in their own films.

In Reply To

AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Jan 12 2013, 6:01pm

Views: 381

That is exactly what happened. You

will have to ignore the gist of the counter statement, as it has everything to do with personal prefference, it seems, not cannon or continuity.

In Reply To

i thought they won the battle and Dain ventured into Moria and saw the balrog than told his people not to enter?

AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Jan 12 2013, 6:09pm

Views: 376

WhAAAAAAAA? If they retook Moria. .. . .

well then why the hell are they living in The Blue Mountains??????? Begging your pardon, but Balin says in the film that Thorin has done well by their people, making a good home for them in The Blue Mountains. Ered Luin wasn't anywhere near Moria when last I checked. And if they re-entered Moria. . . why didn't they look around, check to see if a certain big, pale uber-orc was sitting in a corner nursing injuries, and finish his big, bad ass off? Why are they even concerned about Erebor, other than as a source of treasure and a very dangerous, unlikely vengeance, if they have reclaimed the original Ancient Fatherland and seat of Durin??? Thrain I founded Erebor when the Balrog drove his folk into exile (and more than a few Elves of Lothlorien besides, through his sheer presence) from Khazad-Dum. Erebor was a second home, a new realm in exile. Khazad-Dum, which the Balrog transformed into Moria, as the Elves renamed it, was the true Homeland of Durin's Folk and Heirs.

That said, I think your postulate on how the film team could answer all the continuity questions works for me, though that would still require them at least alluding to the Demon.

In Reply To

MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea

Jan 12 2013, 7:34pm

Views: 365

that poster had my head spinning there for a sec

i was thinking the same thing, than why did they go the Blue Mountains. i think it would be cool if they showed a flashback of Gandalf venturing into Moria to find Thr�in.

take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty, oh will you please take me home!!

AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Jan 12 2013, 8:11pm

Views: 358

Lol. Yeah. All of our perspectives on how the films should unfold/ are unfolding,are at least somewhat

coloured by our own interests, prefferences etc. etc.. and the resulting arguments are sometimes based on the facts of the novel and/or existing films etc. (unfortunately, book to film based "facts" can sometimes be legitimately quite conflicting), or are at least well supported by them. . . and sometimes not so much Unimpressed

. But, you know. . . it is what it is. lol

Lightice
Lorien

Jan 12 2013, 9:02pm

Views: 349

You would still be mistaken -- even further in the film continuity.

Also, you can quit with the graituous synonyms. Balrog is a Balrog. In the films Gimli expresses no awareness of an evil presence in Moria. Implicitly in the film continuity this is ancient history that only wizards know about. The best you can hope for is Gandalf appearing concerned in the epilogue if Balin suggests retaking Moria and suggesting him to give up his plans, to no avail.

You can't repeat often enough: what is introduced can't be left unused. There is no use for the Balrog, therefore there is no purpose for introducing him.

AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Jan 12 2013, 9:28pm

Views: 350

Belligerent condecension aside,

A Balrog is indeed a Balrog, though some are doubtless less aware of what that entails than are others. . . and some merely feign ignorance when it suits them. But no matter. Gimli isn't the sole issue here, is he? The audience is. The Audience has been informed that there is A Demon in Moria, and The Audience has been informed that The Wizards at least are very well aware of his presence, and through them (and of course the fact that he is fully revealed later in Fellowship) The Audience knows of his presence IN Moria. And, if Moria is to be raised in The Hobbit in anything beyond the most fleeting of reffernces (and what we have gotten so far already exceeds anything that could be considered fleeting), then there are questions that are raised with it which require some answering for seamless continuity's sake.

Also there is the other matter. . . if Gandalf knows of The Balrog and is worried about potential allegiances The Necromancer might forge to trouble Elves and Men, a former Demon Thane of Melkor (Tolkien's synonyms, dear, not mine) would be high up on his list of concerns if he knew of it. . . which in the films he does.

As to use. . . the use is continuity, and lots of other less useful and far less relevant things have already been used in this movie, chiefly for that purpose. His use, in brief, would also be much more consistent with the actual story than, say, Azog, whose actual fate before the East Gate of Moria goes rather differently than the film suggests. In any event he IS used. This isn't really a singular, isolated movie anymore. That ship sailed long ago. It isn't really even a trilogy. It is a Sextet with the front end having come late and needing to be rehauled back to the beginning. The Balrog is used in the fourth act of this six act play. But to use him without ever introducing him, even when you have explicitly introduced his lair, would be most untidy indeed.

xxxyyy
Rohan

Jan 13 2013, 2:09am

Views: 323

I've seen AUJ only once. Did they say that in the movie? (NT)

http://energyfromthorium.com/

xxxyyy
Rohan

Jan 13 2013, 2:34am

Views: 326

Ah, Ok, then the question remains, why they did not establish their new home in Moria?

I know, you would say because of the Balrog, but they just did not say anything about him.
My only problem is that the Balrog can't produce that light we see from the gate, hence all the inconsistences I've already said.
I guess the only way to fix this situation is to have another flashback and have the dwarves walk deep into Moria just after the battle of Azanulbizar and then, deep inside they should experience what Tolkien imagined just right at the East Gate.

http://energyfromthorium.com/

xxxyyy
Rohan

Jan 13 2013, 2:38am

Views: 320

What you said is in the book, not the movie.

We have to base on what we have from the movie.
I guess we have to assume the orcs withdrew inside Moria... but what kind of victory Balin is talking about is that?

http://energyfromthorium.com/

MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea

Jan 13 2013, 2:38am

Views: 330

yes it could

did u notice all the light the balrog produced when the fellowship was running from it on the stairs to the bridge of khazad-dum?

take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty, oh will you please take me home!!

xxxyyy
Rohan

Jan 13 2013, 2:48am

Views: 319

Then why is he there doing nothing?

He sure can come out, otherwise Gandalf wouldn't have sacrificed himself to stop him if there had been some strange magical barrier.

http://energyfromthorium.com/

AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Jan 13 2013, 8:14am

Views: 328

That wouldn't have to be inconsistent.

I understand your meaning, but it could be explained by unfounded hope (and we do not know if or how Thror's Ring may fit into these adaptations). Yet, as has been said, to the dwarves, a distant Legend of a Dark Power, even one perhaps glimpsed by a few dwarves at Azanulbizar, might seem no more menacing or impossible to overcome than a great Dragon. . . and, beyond hope, a great Dragon will have been overcome by the end of these films. Maybe (and maybe, unanswered as it was, this was partly the case in backstory of the novels as well), Balin took the unexpected, and all but impossible beyond hope defeat of Smaug as a sign that the fortunes of Durin's Folk had changed at last, and that Moria could be hoped for. It is also certainly feasible that Balin did not personally see The Balrog, and did not riddle out the demon glow (if it was that) emenating from the gate. Maybe it is revealed to The Audience that it was The Balrog, and Gandalf (from the information gathered) suspects it was such, but is unable to convince Balin. etc.

In Reply To

AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Jan 13 2013, 8:29am

Views: 326

I had thought about that. . . but I think one has to consider The Balrog further.

The Balrogs were, in many ways, akin to Melkor The Morgoth. . . and after he was humbled he NEVER came forth again into open war. Now, to be fair, the Balrogs entire history suggests that they were both far more assured (perhaps excessively so) in their near unchallengable might in direct combat, and they seem never to have shyed away from any challenge in which the odds were not obviously against them. . . but that does not mean that a Balrog would come out to do battle on behalf of an army of orcs/goblins. He was not the orcs Champion, like Azog or Bolg, nor was he their Muscle, like The Cave Troll. Whatever relationship he might have had with them would have been most akin to Terrifying lesser god amongst fearful wretches (like Morgoth himself, the Balrogs were said to be Proud, and in that pride we may infer contemptous). Gandalf said that Sauron led in the manner that Denethor suggested (and also abided by). . . that he would not come forth onto the field save either to gloat in victory, or when all else seemed lost and only his power at bay could turn the tide. Both his master and his servants behaved in a similar manner. Saruman behaved in this manner, and it would come as no surprise to see the Balrog behave in his manner.

From all that can be inferred from the written account, The Balrog was certainly aware of the battle of Azanulbizar, and he was aware of its outcome He was not willing to stand forth to try and save the orcs (and if he was as contemptuous of weakness as his master Melkor and his former co-captain Sauron, he likely was of the notion that if they couldn't defeat the dwarves without him stepping forth they didn't deserve to survive), but when it came to the dwarves attempting to enter his lair. . . he came forth enough to let them know it wasn't going to go down that way. And he didn't have to do anymore. Whether the orcs survived or perished, he knew that The Dwarves were no more able to overthrow his might than they had been when their numbers and force of arms had been far greater, and when their greatest King and Ancestor was walking as their reincarnated lord.

And he likely would have known that Sauron would eventually just send more fodder anyway. In his wickedness, it may even have amused him to see his fellow Maiar inconvieninced, while not doing any real or lasting harm to his evil agenda. Beyond all that. . . The Balrog was a Demon older than the world and involved in it's making. . . if those who followed Gandalf "knew not his mind and cannot report his full purpose," the Balrog's may be equally hard to fathom. Who has been privy to the dark counsels of Morgoth? Unsure

In Reply To

He sure can come out, otherwise Gandalf wouldn't have sacrificed himself to stop him if there had been some strange magical barrier.

xxxyyy
Rohan

Jan 13 2013, 2:58pm

Views: 298

Ok, so you have made up your own movie about the Balrog, what about the casual viewers?

Regular people would ask themselves why the heck the Balrog didn't just join the battle against an enemy of Sauron (and dwarves are true enemies of Sauron, otherwise he wouldn't have given them the Rings).

You have given a lot of reasons why he didn't join the battle, but what about basing only on what we know of him from the movies? You gave him too many characteristics. We know he is pure evil, terror incarnated, having him making all those reasonings about the orcs not being worthy of his help is a bit forced.

Also, we know he lives by himself, away from the orcs (in fact they run away when he shows up in FOTR). Wouldn't it be weired to have him sitting at the East Gate while the orcs runs in and out during the battle?

I thought about another good introduction to him. When Azog dies at the BO5A (yes?), he would wisper to Balin something like "you will never get your precious Moria back, you know what's down there, in the deeps... shadow and flame". First Balin get scared to death, then gives the final blow to Azog.
Wouldn't that be awesome?
Smile

But, please, no Balrog at the East Gate.

http://energyfromthorium.com/

MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea

Jan 13 2013, 6:50pm

Views: 290

it boils down to speculation

we don't know because PJ never showed the balrog there but we did see giant flames at the east gate...i think PJ was tipping his hat to what happens when we see Moria again in FOTR.

take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty, oh will you please take me home!!

MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea

Jan 13 2013, 6:53pm

Views: 286

it is a victory nevertheless

thats like saying it was not a victory that the allies in WW1 were able to push the German forces back into Germany because they were still inside Germany...yes but the allies still pushed them back and they loss ground and history tells us the allies won WW1.

take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty, oh will you please take me home!!

AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Jan 13 2013, 9:22pm

Views: 280

Whoa there.

no need for smart assery, friend Tongue

. You asked me why he might have abstained from the battle, and I gave you a reasonable answer. I wasn't even focusing just on the movies at that point, as I thought your question was a more generic one, and could be asked as much of the appendices as of the movie, if indeed the Fiery Glow is meant to signify the presence of Durin's Bane. So I just gave you an answer, and one that seems highly likely.

But even in the films, what is clear is that he isn't the orcs muscle. They can't keep him on a leash and bring him in to do heavy lifting and fighting as they do with the cave troll. They are even more terrified of him in the movies than in the book (there they are daunted and subdued, but they do not flee, and the relationship seems more akin to that of The Nazgul Lord when he is present amongst his living servants). But his motivations are unclear in the film. Him being present but not aiding the orcs would simply leave his motivations still unclear. . . but his menace, and the reason for the dwarves failing would be clear enough. We don't need a faxed list of The Balrogs motivations and full intentions. He is a demon from before the world. We might not fully understand his motives anyway. lol

It is not made clearwhat the living arrangements were. I don't think it is so much that he lived in seperate quarters, as that they got the hell out of the way whenever and wherever he came, unless commanded/compelled to do otherwise. Yet what remains clear is that he tolerates them. He is obviously not bent on their destruction (as he was bent on the destruction and ruin of The Dwarves), for if he were they would all be dead or fled.

As I said, the Weapons and Warfare official companion to the LOTR movies states that the filmaker's take was that the orcs essentially worsipped the Balrog in their isolated Moria colonies, and that it was a shamanistic and fear filled worship. Again, that is their take not so much mine, but that perspective could inform any decisions the make regarding Moria and its denizens in these films.

But Azog and his uber orcs seem less chicken hearted than some of the smaller Moria Orcs/goblins from Fellowship. Maybe they are better able to tolerate, albiet fearfully and worshipfully, the Balrog's presence than their lesser kindred.

I do kinda like your Balin/Azog scenario. But, while being present (The Balrog) at the East Gate without participating MIGHT raise questions (and for all we know such questions could be answered), it would not create the same continuity problem that featuring Moria with no acknowledgement of The Balrog does. I am not particularly hung up on HOW they allude to him, whether at The Gate, or in another manner more consistent with your suggestions. I just think it would be better if they covered their behinds in the continiuity and consistency department, and at least lay the foundations for his massive presence in Fellowship here, so that he doesn't seem like something pulled out of someone's bum for no other reason than providing a boss fight in Moria. Failure to do that not only diminishes the history and these players in it, but it makes the storyline look sloppy and haphazard.

In Reply To

But, please, no Balrog at the East Gate.

xxxyyy
Rohan

Jan 14 2013, 12:46am

Views: 273

Again, you have to excuse my poor English...

I might have given you some strange impressions... don't bother too much reasoning on the feeling of my posts
Smile

http://energyfromthorium.com/

xxxyyy
Rohan

Jan 14 2013, 12:59am

Views: 273

Yes, but if there's a Balrog there...

it needs a thorough (and time consuming) explanation, which I highly doubt we could get.
Explaining in detal his behavior I think it would weaken both his character and his appearance in FOTR.
But I might be totally wrong.
Now what I really want is just a hint of him, by a dying Azog, a final taunt at the dwarves that they'll never reclaim their ancestors' realm.
I think that those flames at the East Gate will end up being the Palantir of Denethor in ROTK.

http://energyfromthorium.com/

AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Jan 14 2013, 2:19am

Views: 270

But they don't really need to go into deep explanation. Sometimes a little can still convey a lot.

Like the look Thorin gives to a increasingly treasure obsessed Thror. We don't KNOW exactly what Thorin is thinking. . . but we get it.

I think that if the Moria scene is further expanded upon later, perhaps Dain and several other dwarves going up to the gate, maybe even entering, still fierce and grim (perhaps we hear big, bad ass Dain say something to Dwalin along the lines of, "I say we should not leave this place without the head of that filthy orc, Azog, even if we do not remain in Moria!"), go into the gate, and from the inner stairs they catch a glimpse. . . we see their faces overcome with horror, get perhaps a shrouded, fleeting look at the face of The Demon, very much like what we get in Saruman's book, except realized rather than an illustration, and they get the hell out of there, and maybe don't even speak of it. One can imagine Thorin and Balin pushing Dwalin to speak. "What is the matter, brother! (cousin for Thorin)." And Dwalin, fierce as we know him to be, just shaking his head. . "we cannot enter Moria, now. . . we cannot. . " But no explanation, and they cannot get an explanation out of him or Dain, and they refuse to speak of it thereafter, as people sometimes do regarding a traumatic event. That level of Trauma in such fierce dwarves would testify to the Terror of The Demon more than just about anything else.

And that would have a lot of power and not need much further explanation. The dwarves looked into Moria and found that there was something in there far more dreadful than any orc (super sized, pale, bald, big assed, mace wielding or otherwise). And it didn't come to the aid of the orcs, because presumably it didn't really give a damn about them.. . but it/he wasn't going to let the Dwarves go home again. And that is enough. We don't need to know the innermost workings of his thoughts. It maybe that The Council may have mention of the threat posed if Sauron starts gathering together the worst of Middle-Earth's remaining evils. But, "why didn't the Demon help the orcs?" is a fair and good question, right alongside, "who told Gandalf he should go back?". . . but, while they make for good conversation and speculation, they don't break inner continuity, nor do any major revising to the history.

In Reply To

xxxyyy
Rohan

Jan 14 2013, 5:23pm

Views: 256

Again, I think, movie wise, they have to enter deep into Moria.

Then, chasing the orcs deep into Moria, they get a glimpse of the Balrog... but I just can't imagine that gate. Again, movie wise.

http://energyfromthorium.com/

AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Jan 14 2013, 10:55pm

Views: 300

I don't have a huge problem with that idea, as long as they give some explanation

and allusion to his presence, and don't just make the sloppy mistake of having Moria here with no mention of him, and then having him pop up out of the black with a hasty "by the way, he was always here and he was still here the last time, but you just missed him. . . I guess you blinked!" I raise the East Gate though, in part because in the book he IS there, but also because there is definitely an unexplained and mighty glow inside that gate through it's entire depiction in the movie, and it is very reminiscent of the glow the Fellowship sees before when they first become fully aware of him, as a group, on the far side of The Dwarrowdelf. Which doesn't mean he was standing right at the gate. In the films, the glow of his Demon fires seems to cast light a long way off from his actual person, when he wants it to.