The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Protesting in advance to the notion of Galadriel carrying Gandalf like a babe in arms, as though she were an angel of mercy.



AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 11 2013, 7:06am


Views: 1719
Protesting in advance to the notion of Galadriel carrying Gandalf like a babe in arms, as though she were an angel of mercy.

HE is the Angel in the equation! I understand he is in a limited, incarnate form, but Peter and company seem to be climbing aboard the overboard express here.
They need not explicitly inform the audience of Gandalf's Angelic origins and hidden nature, but nor should they be so heavily implying that he is inferior to other beings in Middle-Earth.

I love Galadriel, and I love that much her her power and mystique are being portrayed in these films. But she should not be seen to come across with the same mystery and power to Maiar, temporarily limited and incarnate though they be, that she conveys to the likes of Frodo, Aragorn or even Sindarin Elves. What is more, I wouldn't mind her being portrayed as a semi-angelic saviour to the likes of Aragorn or Thorin (misplaced as such a scene might be), but to Gandalf?? It's a bridge to far, if not handled VERY carefully (and Sir Peter is not always sufficiently careful in these matters).

Gandalf and the other Wizards are emmisaries of Eru and of The Valar, NOT of The High Elves. They are not answerable to Galadriel, nor do they require her to affirm whether or not they are making proper decisions (though certainly they would exchange counsel with her), and while they certainly could achieve more combining their powers with her own than they could independantly, there is little to nothing (save perhaps in some moments of foresight) that she can achieve for them through her powers that they cannot manage with their own powers. Those of you familliar with the movie Willow will understand the meaning when I say that Galadriel is NOT to Gandalf, what the Fairy Queen Cherlindrea is to The High Aldwin of Willow's community, or to the sorceress Fin Raizel. Whatever appearances may suggest, Gandalf is not some human magician who has gained the favour and trust of The Elves and is now allowed into their inner circle or tasked with aiding them in protecting Middle-Earth. And while we here, all (or largely) learned with lore, might say, "well, of course, everyone knows that is not the case," the truth is not everyone knows. The layperson in the audience knows nothing about the distant histories and true natures of some of these characters. Thus, presenting Gandalf as subordinate to Galadriel or as essentially less capable than her presents a fundementally flawed understanding of these characters, and of the dynamic between them, and does a disservice to the character of Gandalf.

I am not going to get into the argument of "who is more powerful," the incarnate Gandalf or Galadriel. Gandalf The White is, explicitly by his and Tolkien's observation, the most powerful being in Middle-Earth aside from Sauron himself. But who is marginally mightiest between Gandalf The Gray, Galadriel, The Balrog and Alatar. . .there are strong arguments to be made, but I have no interest in derailing this thread with them. What does bear stating, and what cannot be reasonably argued, is that Galadriel would not have any hope of walking into a fight with Durin's Bane and defeating him without working up a terrible sweat. She would likely not fare any better than Gandalf, Glorfindel, Feanor and Ecthellion. And hence my concerns about the report of her carrying Gandalf out of a conflict (doubtless in the assault on Dol Guldur). . . IF it is handled in such a way that she herself is clearly seen to be damaged/injured and imperiled, and to have remained concious during the battle mainly due to chance, rather than to superior skill and power, then it could work. But if she comes off looking like Legolas and Gandalf like Pippin, or if she comes floating in, glowing and unscathed, and picks up her "poor", overwhelmed "little helper" . . .. FrownMad oh hell no FrownMad.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


lurtz2010
Rohan

Jan 11 2013, 7:27am


Views: 990
lol what makes you think this will happen? //

 


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 11 2013, 7:50am


Views: 1033
It was reported in an EW article. There was a link to it in an earlier post on this board.

Talk of Gandalf being in a bad spot and being carried out by Galadriel. McKellan even refferences the dummy-double (easier for Cate to lift), whom they dubbed "Michael Gambon." The joke is funny on several levels. . . but the notion of such a scene is not a damned bit funny, no not at all. FrownFrownFrown

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Elutherian
Rohan


Jan 11 2013, 8:19am


Views: 975
I love the idea...

...But I've never claimed to be a purist.

The Grey Pilgrim, they once called me. Three hundred lives of men I walked this earth, and now I have no time...


imin
Valinor


Jan 11 2013, 8:29am


Views: 976
Do we know the circumstances of how he ends up over her shoulder?

I mean maybe they were fighting and Gandalf went ahead - being a wizard after all and Galadriel being wise but more a councillor than a warrior - after a period of time he has not come back and she feels forced to go look for him, finds him incapacitated for whatever reason and helps him, the cause of his injury has fled.

This would work i think in terms of - shows she is caring and brave but is not the ultimate xena-warrior elf who is better than Gandalf. It would also perhaps let the audience see that Gandalf is indeed 'stronger' than Galadriel is but what he was facing was his match - Sauron.

Or perhaps they are just wanting young girls who are watching the movie to feel they have a role model - the perfect woman - kind, wise, brave, beautiful, strong etc.

What Phillipa said makes me think it is more the second idea which is fine so long as they dont change the dynamic of their relationship which i think can be maintained if they play it out like something along the lines i said above.


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Jan 11 2013, 8:33am


Views: 957
Agreed

I think I agree with your sentiment.

If it comes to pass (get it?), I blame the female writers for emasculating Gandalf to suit their agenda of "feminine energy" at the expense of their lip services for their love and intimate knowledge of the Middle Earth lore. If it comes to pass. Otherwise - nevermind. You would think Tauriel is enough for them.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Jan 11 2013, 8:35am)


Rolfina
Rivendell


Jan 11 2013, 8:33am


Views: 947
I can certainly see Gandalf

being unconscious and carried around by someone. I just don't see that someone being Galadriel. I try to conjure a mental image, and I just can't.


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Jan 11 2013, 8:45am


Views: 898
Faaaar out

I really hope this doesn't happen but if it did then by canon she could as she was 6'4" (at least) and a match for the athletes of the Noldor in their youth, and Gandalf was only about 5'6" stooped over as he was, so maybe 5'8" standing straight up.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 11 2013, 8:48am


Views: 990
That has been a worry since I heard Phillipa comment on Galadriel

being "the most powerful being in Middle-Earth at the time,". . . Really . . .even putting aside Gandalf, Saruman AND Bombadil, what of Sauron and The Balrog? Even as the necromancer it seems unlikely that Galadriel, without the council, would singlehandedly overthrow him by the time of The hobbit.

Galadriel is powerful, and I like her being showcased as such, but I would hate for them to go overboard, in pursuit of good intentions for female role models and "girl power, and end up diminishing The Istari, and subsequently Sauron and The Balrog, in service of this. People shouldn't come away thinking, "Boy, if Galadriel had been there in Moria, everything would have been fine. . . " or, "Why didn't they just send her to defeat Sauron. . . again!"

In Reply To
I think I agree with your sentiment.

If it comes to pass (get it?), I blame the female writers for emasculating Gandalf to suit their agenda of "feminine energy" at the expense of their lip services for their love and intimate knowledge of the Middle Earth lore. If it comes to pass. Otherwise - nevermind. You would think Tauriel is enough for them.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 11 2013, 8:51am


Views: 911
I am inclined to agree with you here.

My issue is not her being able to carry him, as I have no doubt she would certainly be strong enough to easily lift a man sized person. . . it is with the circumstances surrounding it. If they are portrayed as having been in the same fight, but her coming out relatively unscathed while he is not senseless and has to be rescued by her OR, if he is shown going and catching a beating, but then she shows up and floats in, kicks everyone's ass, and carries him out as a firefighter might, then it is a travesty.

In Reply To
I mean maybe they were fighting and Gandalf went ahead - being a wizard after all and Galadriel being wise but more a councillor than a warrior - after a period of time he has not come back and she feels forced to go look for him, finds him incapacitated for whatever reason and helps him, the cause of his injury has fled.

This would work i think in terms of - shows she is caring and brave but is not the ultimate xena-warrior elf who is better than Gandalf. It would also perhaps let the audience see that Gandalf is indeed 'stronger' than Galadriel is but what he was facing was his match - Sauron.

Or perhaps they are just wanting young girls who are watching the movie to feel they have a role model - the perfect woman - kind, wise, brave, beautiful, strong etc.

What Phillipa said makes me think it is more the second idea which is fine so long as they dont change the dynamic of their relationship which i think can be maintained if they play it out like something along the lines i said above.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Jan 11 2013, 8:52am)


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Jan 11 2013, 8:53am


Views: 895
I'd accept it on one condition.

If Galadriel was replaced in that scene with Tom Bombadil.

Imagine... Gandalf is weakened by Sauron, and it looks like he's met his match. But right before Sauron can deal the final blow, Tom Bombadil swoops in out of nowhere (kicks Sauron in the shin) and carries Gandalf to safety.

I'm completely serious. That would be the best thing to happen ever.Laugh


imin
Valinor


Jan 11 2013, 8:59am


Views: 889
Yeah i wouldnt like it

If the situation you describe happens - though i cant see them filming that as it just seems wrong.

but then things like this happen in commercials/adverts all the time - the guy being a complete idiot and the woman completely in control and sorts him out as he is basically a child - perhaps Phillipa wants to make Gandalf and Galadriel into that kind of relationship?

I cant see it happening and i would be annoyed if it did like you would be - the fact we dont know anything about how it will happen though means we are just worrying for no reason - it could happen something like i said in my original post - in which case, i wouldnt have a problem with it.


DanielLB
Immortal


Jan 11 2013, 9:03am


Views: 895
I'll wait to see how the scene plays out

It could be a really beautiful scene (or it might not). Maybe the quote has been taken out of context on the EW website. It wouldn't be the first time!

Perhaps it will never make it into the film, and will become part of the scrapped XenaGaladriel plot.


Scourge of the Stoors
Rivendell

Jan 11 2013, 9:37am


Views: 907
Galadriel was hardcore in the Silmarillion

She did some serious physical stuff. And I don't see it's emasculating Gandalf to have him being carried by a woman. Maybe it it were John McClane or Rambo, but Gandalf isn't a particularly masculine character to begin with.


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Jan 11 2013, 11:05am


Views: 863
Actually, nowhere in the SIL is there any detail of exactly what Galadriel did that was "hardcore"...

In the SIL it says she did not participate in the First Kinslaying of the Teleri at Aqualonde... although the UT version of her early history has her living at Alqualonde and fighting against her Noldo cousins to defend her close kin. In the Second Age, When the going got rough in Eregion she departed to Lothlorien via Moria, leaving Celeborn to stay and fight with Elrond. We have no real idea of her warrior capabilities or indeed powers except in the dying stages of the War of the Ring when she "threw down the walls of Dol Guldur and laid bare its pits."


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 11 2013, 12:32pm


Views: 812
Wait and see....

Like all the other 'Oh no, are they going to....' panics we've had around here, the actual scene in the film will probably turn out just fine. Even in the books, Galadriel is Gandalf's support network. Remember in The Two Towers, she is the one who sends Gwaihir to look for Gandalf after his fall in Moria and bring him to Lorien - and it's with her that "Healing I found, and I was clothed in white. Counsel I gave and counsel took...' So it doesn't seem so far-fetched to me that she should help him at Dol Guldur. Depends how they do it, of course, but we have almost a year to wait to find that out.

You may be protesting against something they have no intention of doing.


RalphDamiani
Rivendell

Jan 11 2013, 12:37pm


Views: 813
It's impossible that Galadriel would carry Gandalf

That's what she married Celeborn for. Or do you think it was actually Galadriel who spent her time behind the loom weaving cloaks?

Celeborn, the Wise, didn't even get invitations for the holidays in Rivendell. In PJ's universe, during the overthrow of Dol Guldur, attentive viewers will notice he was given the valuable mission of polishing silverware and sweeping golden leaves off a certain penthouse.


(This post was edited by RalphDamiani on Jan 11 2013, 12:38pm)


Kullervo
Rivendell


Jan 11 2013, 1:00pm


Views: 801
I'm not worried

There are several scenarios in where a person of lesser power could be saving the person with the greater power in a field of battle. It does not mean that the persson doing the saving is absolutely the more powerful one to the person being saved. Battles are chaotic and situations arise where balances of power are temporarely shifted. There are almost endless ways in wich this could be handled, all having a slightly different balance.

I think Galadriel saving Gandalf actually has a lot of potential for being a very beautiful and emotionally powerful scene, without reducing Gandalf into a mere magician. Or, it could be completely ridiculous. We have no proof either way, so we have no reason to be worried. I'll calmly, and hopefully, wait and see.


Arannir
Valinor

Jan 11 2013, 1:05pm


Views: 762
100% Agreed.

IMHO not even close to a Xena-Arwen-moment. Quite the opposite, actually, if done nicely.


I am soooo looking for to this "battle"... and even more to the moment the White Council realizes "it is Sauron".

I am glad now they changed the timeline here and we get to see them realizing it. I hope for very emotional and memory-heavy reactions especially by Galadriel and Elrond.

A battle in which they maybe merely push him out of Dol Guldur but have to realize he is rising again, in which they are pushed to the limit of their own power (and life!) is quite a thing, actually. And something totally different to what we ever saw before in movie-ME.


Galadriel's power status is quite ambiguous anyway, especially in the books.


(This post was edited by Arannir on Jan 11 2013, 1:12pm)


dubulous
Rohan

Jan 11 2013, 1:21pm


Views: 757
I don't get what there is to be upset about

One little paragraph tells us absolutely nothing. We don't know anything about the context and we don't know if this will even happen in the movie. A lot of things get filmed that end up playing no part at all in the movie.

Even if this does happen though, I find the idea nothing but intriguing. Whether it'll work depends on how it's carried out of course but the concept certainly has potential in my opinion. Galadriel was called Nerwen for a reason. If Gandalf finds himself in a situation where he needs to be carried (because powerful as he may be, he's not invincible), there is no reason why Galadriel wouldn't have the strength to carry him as much as anyone else, and the fact that she is a woman shouldn't make it a problem when she's been described as being "strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth".


stoutfiles
Rohan


Jan 11 2013, 1:24pm


Views: 776
Ridiculous scene

if she comes floating in, glowing and unscathed, and picks up her "poor", overwhelmed "little helper"

Search your feelings. You know it to be true.

This is extremely disappointing.


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 11 2013, 1:33pm


Views: 775
Hundred facepalms

Still going on about this? Seriously. You seem to have cooked up in your mind the most bizzare scenarios with no basis on reality. And somehow imagined that Gandalf is an unbeatable, infallible badass while at it. Wait until you actually see the scene instead of inventing it, before you start with the complaints.


stoutfiles
Rohan


Jan 11 2013, 1:40pm


Views: 744
The scene is completely made up by PJ

So it's not going to please everyone. I personally am disgusted by the whole thing, but I guess we'll just see what happens.

It's similar to people being angry when they heard about the bunny sled, and then it appeared and changed few minds. It's one of those made up scenes that not everyone will agree on, and the OP has the right to be mad about it.


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 11 2013, 1:55pm


Views: 733
*sigh*

To make an entire overblown thread about a minor detail mentioned in passing in a brief interview without any kind of context or details is a ridiculous overreaction, no matter how you put it. Wait to at least see a scene in a trailer to get mad about it. Or better yet, see the actual film. The justifications for the complaint are based on made-up details that have not been stated or confirmed anywhere. I have my complaints about the AUJ. I made them after I saw the film instead of jumping to conclusions 11 months before its release. You're worried about the detail, OK, it was made absolutely clear in the thread describing the interview, the point is made. Opening an entirely new thread to officially declare a protest against this tidbit is absurd.


Beren0nehanded
Bree


Jan 11 2013, 2:00pm


Views: 705
Thank you Lightice!


In Reply To
Still going on about this? Seriously. You seem to have cooked up in your mind the most bizzare scenarios with no basis on reality. And somehow imagined that Gandalf is an unbeatable, infallible badass while at it. Wait until you actually see the scene instead of inventing it, before you start with the complaints.


For bringing some sense into this discussion! Wink

Don't be hasty.


MorgolKing
Rivendell

Jan 11 2013, 2:26pm


Views: 439
I agree....

I join the protest. This is too much.

And Boyens comment about Galadriel being the most powerful being in Middle Earth is really upsetting.

The White Council scene was very disappointing; Galadriel acts more powerful and above the other members of the council and vanishes into thin air.

Her picking up and saving "poor" Gandalf is just as outrageous as Arwen at Helms Deep. Ugh, where do they come up with this stuff????


Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Jan 11 2013, 2:27pm


Views: 448
Girls generally aren't stupid.

Young girls tend not to be idiots - they are perfectly capable of taking inspiration from anyone or anything that they admire, whether its female, male, animal, vegetable or mineral - or even an abstract idea.

A great role model for a young girl would be a female screenwriter who doesn't try to spoon feed her audience with stereotypical role model material, but treats them as if they have some intelligence and imagination.

Watched Up yesterday - great film, and captures perfectly the ability of children, of either sex, to take something - in this case the idea of 'adventure' characterised by a (dodgy) male explorer, and make it entirely their own. In fact the entire film is driven and the events inspired by the adventurousness of the little girl we meet at the beginning of the film - which is something much more subtle and deep and lodged in the mind than the actual activity of adventure undergone by the man as he tries to keep his promise - something he only realises at the end of the story.

Galadriel's power is on full display in LOTR. All she needs to do it talk to you - in fact all she needs to do is exist - as evidenced in Gimli being ready to take on an entire army to defend her name in the TT. That's the point of it - it's so much greater than the obvious forms of power that the other characters exhibit. The hobbits power - the theme of both books in a way, is also not the obvious type, and although very different, is equally subtle - possibly why she understands them so well and has such an affinity with them.

The reason Sauron fears her is that she can do something he can't - inspire. He has to get physically involved - which is why he loses the ring. If she were to get the ring, people would do anything for her - much more than Sauron's servants who are just driven by fear. If she had been in charge instead of Sauron, the in-fighting in the tower that enabled Frodo and Sam to escape just wouldn't have happened. Galadriel's power is so great that she doesn't need to lift a finger to wield it. Having her doing stuff - lifting, carrying and fighting, at best detracts from her role in the story, and at worst makes her just another hero figure.

Incidentally, I liked what they did with Aragorn in the other films - he's not depicted as the greatest hacker and slasher - he has to struggle to defeat his enemies on the battlefield and has no superhuman skills. His real strength is that he inspires loyalty and belief. That's why Galadriel respects him.



In Reply To

Or perhaps they are just wanting young girls who are watching the movie to feel they have a role model - the perfect woman - kind, wise, brave, beautiful, strong etc.




Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


Jan 11 2013, 2:28pm


Views: 429
'ultimate xena warrior' <- *gag* loool //

 

--I'm a victim of Bifurcation--
__________________________________________

Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!
__________________________________________


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Jan 11 2013, 2:50pm


Views: 444
Okay, fair enough...

and to counterbalance the panic over these comments from EMPIRE (which were actually taken from the McKellen interview in the HOBBIT special Dec 2012 issue,) let me quote what else Sir Ian had to say about Dol Guldur:


Quote

He remains tight-lipped on the subject of Dol Guldur (translation: "the hill of sorcery"), the fetid fastness that Gandalf dares to probe on his lonesome. This might be because he doesn't actually know yet what foul beasts he'll run into: "You probably know more than I do. We don't get to see the creatures until the premiere." But he does reveal that at one point he will be rescued by Radagast The Brown, the only man in Middle-earth to own a sleigh pulled by six oversized bunnies.



Also, Cate Blanchett states in her interview


Quote

"But what was extraordinary for me was getting to work with Ian McKellen. I only briefly worked with him in Lord of the Rings and in my very small part in The Hobbit it was mainly with him...



Perhaps this will ease some minds...


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






burrahobbit
Rohan


Jan 11 2013, 3:20pm


Views: 415
There's little drama in the original Dol Guldur storyline...

Of course I can understand the appeal of including storylines that link to LotR. But taking a pure cinematic view on what happens in the Dol Guldur thread, I do wonder why they have included so much of it. To viewers who have seen LotR, we all know that Sauron does return; to viewers who have not seen LotR, there's little relevance to Bilbo and the dwarves in the Dol Guldur plot.

With little real character advancement and tension for the writers to develop, it is quite possible they will have to manufacture character drama in some way. Gandalf's vulnerability is one way. It's far too early to know how they will do it, but anything along the lines of what you've suggested Ainur would be disappointing. But we will have to wait!


Kassandros
Rohan


Jan 11 2013, 3:21pm


Views: 398
We need to start a picket line in Wellington!

Considering how awful the portrayal of Galadriel and Gandalf was in AUJ - and I think we all can agree it pretty much ruined the movie - I think we should be very wary of what PJ&Co have in store for DoS. They certainly haven't demonstrated that they can handle the subject mater sensitively!

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...


Arthael
Lorien


Jan 11 2013, 3:43pm


Views: 404
Funny you say it's made up by PJ

Because actually it's been made up by people on this site!!!

Nowhere in the article does it say that
she comes floating in, glowing and unscathed, and picks up her "poor", overwhelmed "little helper"

That was completely imagined by worrywarts. It's probably not going to happen.

All we know is she carries him out. Who is to say she hasn't been in the fight the whole time, fighting right next to him, bloody and bruised and covered in soot and grime, and when Gandalf is felled she picks him up and retreats. Who is to say she doesn't arrive with an army of elven reinforcements and runs in (not floats), slashing through swathes of orcs to save Gandlaf just before he's overcome by the Necromancer?

Where on earth do you get off assuming she'll float, assuming she'll be unscathed, and assuming it'll be a patronizing scene?

Lord knows the scene you described would be awful, and I'd hate it as much as you, but we have no evidence to suggest that's how it'd going to play out. So stop worrying just a little bit...


"There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go."


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jan 11 2013, 3:45pm


Views: 427
In The Silmarillion as written by J.R.R. Tolkien

She is described as the "most valiant" of the House of Finwe. That's pretty hardcore. Of course, you won't find that anywhere in the text published by Christopher Tolkien.

Pity.

I am cautiously looking forward to the possibility of a "hardcore" Galadriel coming to Mithrandil's rescue.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Jan 11 2013, 3:54pm


Views: 396
Yes, but that's not "detail"...

.it just tells us she was brave of heart. The closest I could find was the description in UT that said she "fought fiercely against Feanor in defence of her Mother's kin."


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






Lightice
Lorien

Jan 11 2013, 3:56pm


Views: 376
Thank you.


In Reply To
Because actually it's been made up by people on this site!!!


There hasn't been enough sanity in this thread to go around. Personally I suspect that what we'll actually see is Gandalf infiltrating Dol Guldur, learning the truth about Sauron and getting badly beaten, barely escaping with his life. He will then flee, badly wounded, calling for help by some means (animals, telepathy, Radagast, whatever), and Galadriel will show up in awhile and treat him.

This is ofcourse purely wild speculation, but it would play well into the foreshadowing of Gandalf's suspicions and Galadriel's promise to help him if he calls for her. It would also neatly demonstrate the threat level that Necromancer poses in the same scene.


(This post was edited by Lightice on Jan 11 2013, 3:57pm)


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jan 11 2013, 3:56pm


Views: 375
I knew you were going to say that! //

 

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


stoutfiles
Rohan


Jan 11 2013, 4:04pm


Views: 381
It is made up by PJ

In that Tolkien has never adequetly described it, so PJ has to fill in the blanks. Her floating in would anger me, but annoy someone else. Her fighting right next to him would also anger me and someone else, but not everyone. My preferred take is that other elves do the ground fighting, then she levels the place from a distance would anger some also.

The key is that you can't please everyone, but her floating in is very predictable and I just see that happening. That is my assumption.

I can't see why we can't make guesses about events that could happen and complain about them, especially if PJ and his crew do happen upon the site once in a while. There's still lots of time to change things or relegate them to the EE. What else is there to do for a year?


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 11 2013, 4:13pm


Views: 363
Why would floating be "predictable"?


In Reply To
The key is that you can't please everyone, but her floating in is very predictable and I just see that happening. That is my assumption.



What floats in the LotR or The AUJ? Lets see...nothing, nothing and more nothing. Not elves, ghost or any other creatures. Even Sauron's eye stands on the top of Barad-Dûr. What indicates that something would float in any subsequent parts? Lets see...More nothing. Why then, would you imagine that Galadriel floats? It's absurd imaginations of a disgruntled fan, nothing more.

And do you honestly imagine that PJ or any other director worth his job description is tailoring his films based on the contents of fansites, let alone baseless predictions of unfinished products?

My prediction, the most likely to come true, that this is all much ado about nothing. Gandalf gets injured to demonstrate the power of his enemy and gets carried to safety by Galadriel. What the context is, we only have speculations, though I very much doubt that it's the main assault on Dol Guldur.


(This post was edited by entmaiden on Jan 11 2013, 4:18pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Jan 11 2013, 4:19pm


Views: 354
This is a very good point


In Reply To
My prediction, the most likely to come true, that this is all much ado about nothing. Gandalf gets injured to demonstrate the power of his enemy and gets carried to safety by Galadriel. What the context is, we only have speculations, though I very much doubt that it's the main assault on Dol Guldur.


If Radagast doesn't die, then it makes sense for Gandalf to be (seriously) injured. If the White Council all walked out of Dol Guldur without a bruise ... then the battle is not threatening at all - it's not exciting or dramatic.

I wonder if this is how Gandalf will break his arm in the film. Maybe he turns up to the BO5A having already broken his arm?


(This post was edited by DanielLB on Jan 11 2013, 4:20pm)


stoutfiles
Rohan


Jan 11 2013, 4:22pm


Views: 346
Galadriel is shown as otherworldly all the time

So if she's there in the thick of things doing something anyone can do, she will do it in a way that is visually spectacular so al the tweens will squeal.

This is just my opinion based on what PJ does. Nothing is ever subtle with him in an action scene. Thorin leaving the tree to fight Azog was slow-motion, "epic" music in the fire with constant cuts to the dwarves screaming "nooooo". Once Boromir started to get shot, we went right to slo-mo to draw it out. If Galadriel carries Gandalf, it will be drawn out, and she will not just toss him on her shoulder and walkout with no epic music or effects.

She might float, she might not. The point is that it will likely not be subtle, and that will upset me. Until then, no need to be upset about people theorizing. We're jsut talking 'what-ifs" here.


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 11 2013, 4:25pm


Views: 333
Just "what-ifs"?


In Reply To
She might float, she might not. The point is that it will likely not be subtle, and that will upset me. Until then, no need to be upset about people theorizing. We're jsut talking 'what-ifs" here.


You are getting angry and upset by a scene that you have made up for yourselves. This is what bugs me. You are getting angry at Peter Jackson over a scene that thus far does not exist outside your imaginations. It's one thing to theorise and speculate, it's a completely different matter to come up with things that make you angry and then act like they are true.


Arannir
Valinor

Jan 11 2013, 4:26pm


Views: 341
Is this irony?

If not, no, we cannot agree on that.

If it is, sorry for not realizing ;)


(This post was edited by Arannir on Jan 11 2013, 4:33pm)


Kullervo
Rivendell


Jan 11 2013, 4:35pm


Views: 328
Galadriel is shown as otherworldly

Or maybe ethereal is a better way to describe it. But I don't see why that is a problem. And I also fail to see how an epic battle between the mythical forces of good and evil should not look visually stunning.

And I don't think inventing scenarious and then panicking about them is really productive. All we know, like Lightice said, is that Galadriel carries Gandalf away. And we don't really even know that for a certain, it could very well be cut from the movie (I hope not, because I see potential there, if done well).


imin
Valinor


Jan 11 2013, 5:08pm


Views: 318
I agree with this but it aint going to happen


In Reply To
. A great role model for a young girl would be a female screenwriter who doesn't try to spoon feed her audience with stereotypical role model material, but treats them as if they have some intelligence and imagination.

In Reply To

They are just not that clever (the writers) and from what we know of tauriel she is going to be a stereotypical tough girl type character - though when the film comes out this may change. The Hobbit doesnt seem the type of film that they will move away from stereotypes though.


Istaris'staffs
Rivendell


Jan 11 2013, 5:14pm


Views: 320
No one is infallible

in Tolkien's universe. Even Gandalf may need to be saved at times...

"Are you mad? You'll never out run them, those are Gundabad warns!"
"And these are RHOSGOBEL rabbits! I'd like to see them try."


MorgolKing
Rivendell

Jan 11 2013, 5:26pm


Views: 306
Um..


In Reply To
in Tolkien's universe. Even Gandalf may need to be saved at times...


We witnessed that. It's in FoTR and TTT. Why weaken the character even more and superfluously I might add.

And why decide that Galadriel must be the most powerful being in ME and seemingl infallible?


Rostron2
Gondor


Jan 11 2013, 5:33pm


Views: 303
Thanks for clearing the air.

I think our chains are being yanked, but if it does happen, I guess we'll see another firestorm here. I don't like the idea either, but there ain't nuthin' I can do about it if it's in the final cut.


Kassandros
Rohan


Jan 11 2013, 5:34pm


Views: 290
Sarcasm, not irony

I was being sarcastic, yes.

I think this whole thread is pretty hilarious and I find it very hard to take seriously. There is zero context. Just one rumor. We know pretty much nothing about this. It seems pretty ridiculous to get into a rage over fears that these womenfolk screenwriters are going to ruin Middle Earth by having one of Tolkien's most powerful female characters do something other than stand around and look pretty. She is one of the oldest and most powerful elves on Middle Earth and wields one of the four most powerful artifacts still in existence. I somehow think she can manage to rescue Gandalf. But arguing about Galadriel's capabilities is beside the point: we know pretty much nothing about this scene.

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...


Arannir
Valinor

Jan 11 2013, 5:36pm


Views: 294
Why would Galadriel...

... seem infallible? We do not know yet what will happen in the battle, they may all get their share of wounds.

Plus... Galadriel had something deeply melancholic about her in LotR and she obviously had "some" ring temptation (although she does not give in to it, but she goes mental before).

Hardly a sign of an infallible character imho.



One thing remains: A lot of fuss about something we almost know nothing about. At least no reason to go into "writer-have-no-imagination-only-want-the-stupid-girls" territory (unless one only looks for a reason to start doing that, of course. That is a general comment btw.).


(This post was edited by Arannir on Jan 11 2013, 5:37pm)


Kassandros
Rohan


Jan 11 2013, 5:37pm


Views: 295
The TT movie does not show Galadriel's part in rescuing Gandalf

One could speculate that the filmmakers may be considering moving this idea from LotR to The Hobbit. They like to do that sort of thing. On the other hand, maybe not. We don't know anything about this scene.

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...


Arannir
Valinor

Jan 11 2013, 5:38pm


Views: 410
:D

 

Okay, good. Then I agree ;)


Rostron2
Gondor


Jan 11 2013, 5:47pm


Views: 409
That's the only thing

Kassandros: One could speculate that the filmmakers may be considering moving this idea from LotR to The Hobbit. They like to do that sort of thing. On the other hand, maybe not. We don't know anything about this scene.

That's sort of the only plausible thing I thought of when this whole rumor started.

However, I agree, we know nothing about this scene. They could very well have had a lifelike dummy of Gandalf there for another purpose, and Cate just picked it up to see how much it weighed. They used a very realistic replica of Boromir in the boat.

Of course, the spiky wheel photo caused a lot of speculation and it turned up in the EE.



ashonmytomatoes
Bree


Jan 11 2013, 5:56pm


Views: 390
Well said!

I love Tolkien but the lack of any female character. At all. is a problem in The Hobbit. I don't have a problem with Tauriel (thus far) and, like you, don't see why Galadriel would't be capable of carrying Gandalf (between being a strong, over 6' Noldor and him having the body of a 5'6'' elderly man and her magical powers).

It all depends on how they do it. To give some examples from FOTR, I didn't have a problem with Arwen taking Glorfindel's place re the Ringwraiths and I don't think I would've have a problem with her taking the place of her (not in the movie) brothers at Helm's Deep. Depending.

I love the movies but they are not perfect, either. Frodo should have been able to be on the horse himself and challenge the Wraiths as he did in the book. Also, I did cringe when Arwen got all weepy over Frodo and the whole "Arwen is dying" bit in ROTK was silly. However, at least you didn't wonder who Arwen was when she showed up at the coronation.

So, it all depends on how it is done. There are enough things done beautifully in these movies that I have faith. As has been said, it is just a rumor and it may not be in the movie at all.


Nerven
Rivendell

Jan 11 2013, 8:56pm


Views: 368
Gandalf


In Reply To

In Reply To
in Tolkien's universe. Even Gandalf may need to be saved at times...


We witnessed that. It's in FoTR and TTT. Why weaken the character even more and superfluously I might add.

And why decide that Galadriel must be the most powerful being in ME and seemingl infallible?

Quote

I´m really looking forward to see that scene. I don´t get all this stir only because Galadriel might carry him. Why would it weaken his character? I think it would rather show that he has mighty allies he can rely on and that they help each other if they are needing their help. He is not yet Gandalf the white and still restricted in his power and of course he can be injured and Philippa is not that wrong in her statement reagrding Galadriel IMHO. Tolkien said that Galadriel is the mightiest of the Eldar in the third age,the Istari are restricted in their power, Sauron is weak at this point and regarding the Balrog, very well, if another elves, seemingly less in power than Galadriel, like Glorfindel and Ecthelion are able to that deed, one could assume that Galadriel, who is said to be the "equal of Feanor" and strong of mind, body and will, a match for the loremaster ans athletics in Valinor, is able to do the same. Her brother (Finrod) almost won a duel of Song against Sauron and if we can believe Tolkien, Galadriel was greater than her older brother. I don´t think it is too far-fetched to say Galadriel was the most powerful at this time.


Rostron2
Gondor


Jan 11 2013, 9:46pm


Views: 345
Yes, well said, and I completely agree it's logical and plausible that she's powerful

Tolkien even inferred that Gandalf the Grey was put in Middle Earth with his current body and form because he'd be more likely to understand the mortals he was protecting. Galadriel, however, has been literally at the tables of the Valar before she left the Blessed Realm, and she has a ring of power too. So, it's even plausible she might help him.

However, a movie audience made up of 90% non-Tolkienites isn't going to be sitting there and sifting that information. That's why the notion is meeting with disdain. It's also the picture in their heads that people can't accept. How often do women carry men? LOL


sharku
Rivendell

Jan 11 2013, 9:59pm


Views: 344
Eru / Iluvatar


In Reply To
No one is infallible in Tolkien's universe. Even Gandalf may need to be saved at times...


Eru is[infallible]. Even the discord that is Melkor is ultimately of his design.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 11 2013, 10:03pm


Views: 331
It isn't the being carried alone that is the problem, as I have said in earlier postage.

It is more the circumstances. If it is very carefully portrayed, that is one thing. HOWEVER, if the circumstances imply or explicitly portray Galadriel as being so mighty that she can come into a situation where Gandalf is completely overwhelmed, and be unscathed by comparison and carry the "helpless" Wizard to safety. . . hell no. Tis too much. It isn't a matter of emasculation. I could care less about that. It is a matter of Galadriel becoming defined as, not merely ambiguously/possibly more powerful in some aspects than the Wizards, but of her potentially becoming defined as enormously more powerful than they, capable of winning battles (possibly with relative ease) that Gandalf cannot, and of defeating foes who are beyond them and coming away from it unmussed. They are on the edge of solidifying, in the minds of the lay audience, Galadriel as distinctly and definitively superior, in all aspects of both power, authority and status, to Ainur who were sent into Middle-Earth specifically for the guidance of ALL its people.

In Reply To
She did some serious physical stuff. And I don't see it's emasculating Gandalf to have him being carried by a woman. Maybe it it were John McClane or Rambo, but Gandalf isn't a particularly masculine character to begin with.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 11 2013, 10:08pm


Views: 339
A wait and see approach would have left you with Arwen at Helm's Deep. . .

though that might not have been as drastic a change as some others have been. lol

In Reply To
Like all the other 'Oh no, are they going to....' panics we've had around here, the actual scene in the film will probably turn out just fine. Even in the books, Galadriel is Gandalf's support network. Remember in The Two Towers, she is the one who sends Gwaihir to look for Gandalf after his fall in Moria and bring him to Lorien - and it's with her that "Healing I found, and I was clothed in white. Counsel I gave and counsel took...' So it doesn't seem so far-fetched to me that she should help him at Dol Guldur. Depends how they do it, of course, but we have almost a year to wait to find that out.

You may be protesting against something they have no intention of doing.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 11 2013, 10:22pm


Views: 311
How wrong you are. We have seen him defeated by Saruman, and placed in dire straits

and even felled by The Balrog, though he was Returned. This is about the creation of a scenario in which he is not merely vulnerable, but clearly subordinate to one of the High Elves of Middle-Earth.

And what is the point of waiting to comment? I am commenting on what has been reported in the HOPES that the suggested scenario is not a worst case scenario. Worry is for things not yet come to pass. I am WORRYING. Disgust is for displeasing things that are already set in stone and have already come into being. Those things are beyond worry. Worry is the appropriate response for something that you don't want to see happen, but are concerned may come to be.


In Reply To
Still going on about this? Seriously. You seem to have cooked up in your mind the most bizzare scenarios with no basis on reality. And somehow imagined that Gandalf is an unbeatable, infallible badass while at it. Wait until you actually see the scene instead of inventing it, before you start with the complaints.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 11 2013, 10:29pm


Views: 311
I really wish that the straw man of whether or not she would be capable of carrying him would stop being raised.

I do not doubt that she could lift and carry Azog if she wanted to. It is not her physical strength at issue, nor the fact that she is female. I would be as troubled by the notion of Elrond carrying Gandalf IF there had been recurring implication that Elrond was somehow the superior of The Istari.

It is all about the portrayl and circumstances. I do not have any problem with the notion of Galadriel being able to lift Gandalf. I do not have a problem with Gandalf not being portrayed as unassailable, for he is not, regardless to Lightice's flippant misread of my comments. What I have a massive problem with is the possibilty of Galadriel being portrayed as exponentially greater in power and prowess than The Istari. As I said, if they are both seriously injured in this battle, and Gandalf just happens to come down on the wrong side of the misfortunes of battle, okay. . . but if she is seen as pristine as ever, with nary a hair out of place and no sign of having taken harm, save a few smudges of dirt and a tired look about the eyes, and then she lifts, angel of mercy style, a beaten down Gandalf out of the wreckage. . . too much.

In Reply To
One little paragraph tells us absolutely nothing. We don't know anything about the context and we don't know if this will even happen in the movie. A lot of things get filmed that end up playing no part at all in the movie.

Even if this does happen though, I find the idea nothing but intriguing. Whether it'll work depends on how it's carried out of course but the concept certainly has potential in my opinion. Galadriel was called Nerwen for a reason. If Gandalf finds himself in a situation where he needs to be carried (because powerful as he may be, he's not invincible), there is no reason why Galadriel wouldn't have the strength to carry him as much as anyone else, and the fact that she is a woman shouldn't make it a problem when she's been described as being "strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth".


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 11 2013, 10:38pm


Views: 301
Does not compute.


In Reply To
and even felled by The Balrog, though he was Returned. This is about the creation of a scenario in which he is not merely vulnerable, but clearly subordinate to one of the High Elves of Middle-Earth.



How is being saved by an elf make Gandalf "subordinate" to them? Why do you think that the world of Middle-Earth works on Dungeons & Dragons power levels? Comprehend this: even the grand-master of Krav Maga can end up killed by an untrained thug with a broken bottle under the wrong circumstances. Even a scared civilian can smash the skull of a Navy Seal if they are distracted. It's ridiculous to set up a line and state: "No elf can perform above this, no Maia can perform under this".

Gandalf is fallible and vulnerable, and needs friends and supporters to succeed in his great work. Without them he is doomed. It does not matter if he is more powerful and dangerous than any of them could ever hope to be -- though I would argue that as Gandalf the Gray he is quite limited compared to many of his White Council compatriots -- he can still fail and fall, and needs others to catch and help him if he does.

You are offended by the very possibility that Gandalf might need help from someone who is not on what you consider to be his power level. I say that this is an absurd thing to get peeved about and demonstrates total misunderstanding of Gandalf's character, and even the basic values on which Tolkien wrote the LotR-trilogy. The great and mighty can't do all their fights alone. They need the "lesser" folk and would not be able to last without them.


In Reply To
Worry is the appropriate response for something that you don't want to see happen, but are concerned may come to be.


That is not what your posts sound like. As far as I am able to see you have already decided what this scene will be like, based on nothing more than a few lines from an interview, and are actively trying to start a picket line to stop it like only you could stop it and it was the most important thing in the world. Your worries and fears are based on nothing concrete and would be downright comical in their exaggerated magnitude if you didn't take them so damn seriously.


dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 11 2013, 11:10pm


Views: 305
No, I don't believe it would.

That was a storyline they intended, worked on and finally decided against because they found something better. Yes, they were aware of online protests but I don't believe those made a scrap of difference. I don't believe that anything I said then or say now could make any difference to the way Peter Jackson makes his films, not do I think it should. If he and his team don't have the confidence to make their own decisions and stick by them then they shouldn't be doing the job at all. Can you imagine the sort of mess they'd be in if they had to keep running to the internet to find out how to approach this or that scene, or design, or storyline? After all, it's not as if everyone agrees, is it?!

But you haven't answered the real point in my previous post. Tolkien himself had Galadriel sending Gwaihir to look for Gandalf after his fight with the Balrog, and she took him in, healed and reclothed him. Gandalf isn't superman (or SuperMaia), he is vulnerable when faced with an opponent of his own rank. And if Tolkien had Galadriel help him after Moria, why should she not help him after Dol Guldur?


Plurmo
Rohan

Jan 11 2013, 11:11pm


Views: 304
They turned Aragorn into an exile

who had never wanted to be king. That's like saying that the whole continuity for thousands of years of the Line of Valandil was without purpose. That the ancestral duty of keeping the numenorean kingdom on Middle-earth had become irrelevant, a matter of free choice of an unwilling individual instead of the final act of a will of kings that stood alight despite all the efforts of the enemy to quench it. It was such an imbecility from the scriptwriters that one doubts if they have any understanding of what they are reading in the books.

As for Galadriel, I think you are very right in your estimation of her power. It is relevant that Gandalf the White was only awakened after she refused the Ring. Had she claimed it for herself there would be no Sauron, no Istari, no High elf, no hobbit, no one that could defeat her.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 11 2013, 11:30pm


Views: 292
But let them all be bruised, certainly only him, nor all but her.

And, Lightice knows well enough what others and myself have meant by float. See her passage through Lothlorien when she summons Frodo to look into the Mirror. Yes her feet touch the ground, but she almost glides. And it is WONDERFUL! And it fits her well there and bespeaks her great power. . . it would NOT fit in Dol Guldur in a struggle against Sauron, when all about even Istari are being desprately assailed.

And he/she needen't be condescending. Let us not act as if Sir Peter, Ms. Boyens et al have never made any choices that might cause anyone to ever question a path they might be taking based on statements made. Unsure

In Reply To

In Reply To
My prediction, the most likely to come true, that this is all much ado about nothing. Gandalf gets injured to demonstrate the power of his enemy and gets carried to safety by Galadriel. What the context is, we only have speculations, though I very much doubt that it's the main assault on Dol Guldur.


If Radagast doesn't die, then it makes sense for Gandalf to be (seriously) injured. If the White Council all walked out of Dol Guldur without a bruise ... then the battle is not threatening at all - it's not exciting or dramatic.

I wonder if this is how Gandalf will break his arm in the film. Maybe he turns up to the BO5A having already broken his arm?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Jan 11 2013, 11:33pm)


Elenorflower
Gondor


Jan 11 2013, 11:40pm


Views: 302
what strikes me most about this

possible scene, is how totally utterly out of Galadriels (film) character it is.
Up to now she has been shown in the Hobbit film and to a lesser extent in LOTR, as almost entirely static, slow moving and slow in all her mannerisms. She even speaks slowly. In TH she mostly stands about like a statue. So to suddenly see her give Gandalf a heft over her shoulder like a hulking great Amazon, will look very shocking. and weird. its not very ladylike.


TheSexyBeard
Lorien

Jan 11 2013, 11:44pm


Views: 273
My ideas based on magazine snippets

How about...

Gandalf goes to Dol Guldor by ahead of the White Council. He proves the presence of Sauron, but is attacked by these unknown creatures. He does quite well (and probably does something awesome) but is outnumbered and eventually incapacitated. When all seems lost the rest of the council arrive and a contingent of elves.. Radaghast fends of the creatures (maybe there bestial and he can drive them off easily because of this) and Galdriel carries Gandalf off safely,

Yes, my username is terrible.


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 11 2013, 11:50pm


Views: 265
That would be "he".


In Reply To
And, Lightice knows well enough what others and myself have meant by float.



As a matter of fact, I do not. I am working under the dictionary definition unless I have a good reason to assume otherwise. And I certainly never associated the verb with Galadriel's movements in the FotR. She is graceful and etheral but her feet move and touch the ground, no special effects are involved.


Quote
. it would NOT fit in Dol Guldur in a struggle against Sauron, when all about even Istari are being desprately assailed.



This contains so many unfounded assumptions. Lets count them up:

1) Gandalf's injury will take place during the White Council's assault on Dol Guldur. Possible, but far from confirmed. Personally I would predict that Gandalf will get injured while attempting to investigate Dol Guldur on his own and barely escapes with his life. It would give a sense of drama to Gandalf's story in the second film and give his claims more weight in the second meeting of the Council. But that's just me speculating.

2) Galadriel will be directly and personally involved with the fighting. Cate Blanchett has given the impression that she hasn't shot action scenes at least for now. It's perfectly possible that her role will be purely supportive in the assault. But again, a matter for speculation.

3) Galadriel will be unaffected by whatever took down Gandalf. Biggest assumption so far, and hinges both on the presumption that she will engage with the same threat that will defeat Gandalf and that she will be the one to defeat it.

There are other assumptions at play as well, but these are the chief ones. Not one of them has been confirmed or even suggested by the information that we have available. Being offended by something this intangible simply is not worth the time and effort. You're just waiting the opportunity to stick foot in your mouth by doing so.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jan 11 2013, 11:56pm


Views: 279
Arwen at Helm's Deep

While it would obviously have been a great departure, and I truly love what they did with Arwen instead (minus the brief lines about her dying), I'm very curious to know how it would have turned out. I don't think it would have actually been as bad as many have suggested. I'd love to some day see all of Arwen's deleted scenes, especially the Helm's Deep stuff.

There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 12 2013, 1:56am


Views: 247
Exactly.

We already know Gandalf can sometimes come up falling short (Saruman was used to display that quite effectively and then some), and can be very thoroughly challanged, almost to the point of breaking. See The Balrog if Saruman was not enough. Certainly the Necromancer is also up to the challenge, by this stage in time. But all things are relative. And that is part of the issue here. The other part is that it is in Rings that we should Gandalf really put to the test, so that we appreciate the greater threat facing him and The World, though surely there must be some dangerous patches for him in Dol Guldur.

Yet, again, relativity is the concern. It isn't a matter of Gandalf being up to every challange all on his lonesome. . .. it is a matter of NOT portraying a scenario where Galadriel or Elrond are clearly entirely up to challenges that are clearly seen to be beyond Gandalf. As I said, a viewer should not come way with a notion of "if only Galadriel had been there in Moria. . . SHE'D have showed that Balrog. . ." We don't know that, nor should we be surmising that, or any other aspect of her comparative power vs. Gandalf and Saruman. Tolkien is often wisely ambiguous. "Against some I have not yet been tested. . ." My concern is Galadriel, rightfully mighty, coming across more like Melian the Maia (or, Heaven forbid, Varda the Vala) than like Galadriel the Noldo. . . and of Gandalf, by comparison, coming across as being little more than "merely some human sorcerer, dabbling. . ." as Saruman might put it.

And your last comment is the perfect analysis of the concern. Not that Gandalf will be portrayed as other than infallible and invulnerable. . . but that, especially by comparison, Galadriel will be portrayed too much as being both of those things.

In Reply To

In Reply To
in Tolkien's universe. Even Gandalf may need to be saved at times...


We witnessed that. It's in FoTR and TTT. Why weaken the character even more and superfluously I might add.

And why decide that Galadriel must be the most powerful being in ME and seemingl infallible?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Jan 12 2013, 1:58am)


Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Jan 12 2013, 2:13am


Views: 247
It was fighting talk.

I was only talking about the fact that they didn't make him ten times better than everyone else at fighting.

The other stuff - the insertion of a 'character arc' where none is needed - don't get me started on that... I feel one of my turns coming on.....

And yes, if Ms Blanchett, who is almost certainly the result of magical forces herself - had accepted the ring, I think the point wasn't that she would be too strong for her enemies, but more that no-one (at least on the 'good side') would want to defeat her - they would become willing slaves, but slaves nonetheless. She recognised the loss of free will to emotion - the worst side of nationalism or religion or ideology - and rejected it. A leader's permission to lead should be provided by their competence, not the love they inspire, and she has the wisdom to reject the god like status that the latter case - possession of the ring - would give her. It's really interesting that Tolkien took this stance, as it challenges the notion of the Old Testament god - who ruled entirely by inspiring fear (as in Sauron) and devotion (as in Galadriel with the ring). He's hinting at a very different type of faith - in a god that is in the background and who inspires, but leaves people to find their own morality - according to their common sense - and to govern themselves. That would be consistent with Tolkien's view of the Bible as a 'true myth', rather than a literal set of rules - something that inspires and informs our own inbuilt notions of decency and common sense - which brings us back to the hobbits, who are the embodiment of this.

Thinking about it, it makes sense that at the end of LOTR, the Shire has been Galadrielised (via Sam's gift) and now represents the best of both worlds - the everyday and the magical, but remains far away from, and uninvolved in, the centres of earthly and military power, represented by the new King.



In Reply To
who had never wanted to be king. That's like saying that the whole continuity for thousands of years of the Line of Valandil was without purpose. That the ancestral duty of keeping the numenorean kingdom on Middle-earth had become irrelevant, a matter of free choice of an unwilling individual instead of the final act of a will of kings that stood alight despite all the efforts of the enemy to quench it. It was such an imbecility from the scriptwriters that one doubts if they have any understanding of what they are reading in the books.

As for Galadriel, I think you are very right in your estimation of her power. It is relevant that Gandalf the White was only awakened after she refused the Ring. Had she claimed it for herself there would be no Sauron, no Istari, no High elf, no hobbit, no one that could defeat her.



Plurmo
Rohan

Jan 12 2013, 5:46am


Views: 227
That's a veritable lecture on Galadriel's power and the dangers of devotion.

It's a pity this thread will submerge fast. I wish more people would have a chance to grasp your viewpoint on this matter.

Because of the powers you so well describe I see Galadriel as a true feanorian character whose rise to power in Middle-earth would cause a reversal in the migratory pattern of elves and would inevitably result in a new strife with the Valar.

Being both noldor and teleri she would have no trouble finding words for convincing and ships for carrying. And if Thingol was able to attract a powerful maia who could Queen Galadriel, wearing the four Rings, seduce? Maybe Eonwë himself? Maybe several of them like Melkor did? Or perhaps a bigger fish like Ulmo the lonely?

As for the Shire, as new elvish settlements would start to sprout near the Grey Havens, eventually it would be affected. I can envision disputes over that land between elves and the numenorean vassal kingdom in Eriador. In that sense the Mallorn of Galadriel in Hobbiton would end up becoming a monument, the Pillar of the Queen in the North. Perhaps she had foreseen that and found a way to turn what was originally devised as a symbol of power into a symbol of her noble renounce.

PS: I saw what was your point regarding Aragorn, but I jumped in the breach because I wanted to stress the likelihood of the scriptwriters opting for the worst in the matter of Galadriel saving Gandalf. I apologize if it looked like I was attacking your post. I wasn't. I thought your post was very precise and your ideas regarding Galadriel's real power very akin to mine, though you express them with far greater ability. That's why I was motivated to reply to your post in particular.Evil


Arannir
Valinor

Jan 12 2013, 1:41pm


Views: 201
This.

I do not think they changed Arwen's storyline because of the fan reaction (although it was brutal).

As far as I know both Liv Tyler and eventually the writers did not feel like her storyline really worked.

That is when Philippa Boyens said on the commentary, I think, that they decided to totally go with the "passive" heroism of Arwen. To underline what it means for her to stay in Middle-earth.

I thought this was brilliantly done because it was one of those moments you realized that even with Sauron defeated, ME will not just change for the better.


But that is a bit off-topic... however, this gives me, all in all, courage, that they have the skills to portray Galadriel in a believable way - and I can see a rescue scene between her and Gandalf to be very emotionally satisfying for both characters.

I am sure she will be kind of "bad-ass" as I am sure the writers will draw for this episode both from Galadriel helping Gandalf in TTT and Galadriel getting rid of what is left of Sauron's malice in Dol Guldur after the War of the Ring. Maybe Elrond, Gandalf and Galadriel will use their rings...

I agree that it should not look like Galadriel sweeps through the enemy's lines while Gandalf is almost killed. But there is no real reason to believe so as of now.

What strikes me very positively is that they seem to make the Battle for Dol Guldur a hard one for the White Council. No "we slammed Sauron... take that you Dark Lord!" - a hard battle in which key and mighty combatants are seriously injured.

Who is better to go down that path than Gandalf? We have learned over 4 movies how strong he can be, that he is so important that he even comes back from the dead because of his mission. Injuring him shows, who they are up against and why Middle-earth is in that "end-of-.the-world-type" state when we see it in FotR. Plus, it may play nicely with Gandalf's path to Erebor, give that a lot of urgency and - once more - a major sacrifice on the part of Gandalf.

How could he ever me undermined by Galadriel when we witness all the time what he takes upon himself compared to ALL other members of the White Council. I think it is almost impossible to have him downgraded just because Galadriel may be there for him at the right moment during a brutal battle.


frodolives
Lorien

Jan 12 2013, 2:20pm


Views: 196
Just curious...

... where you get the idea that Gandalf is short. He is described as being fairly tall, isn't he?


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 12 2013, 5:02pm


Views: 174
We shall see...


In Reply To
What strikes me very positively is that they seem to make the Battle for Dol Guldur a hard one for the White Council. No "we slammed Sauron... take that you Dark Lord!" - a hard battle in which key and mighty combatants are seriously injured.
.


I'm fairly sure that the battle for Dol Guldur was something of a curbstomb fight for the White Council because Sauron had actually already planned ahead and pretended to flee, actually setting himself up back in Mordor. I wouldn't be surprised if the White Council will find their fight a little too easy, only to discover that the guy in charge has dissappeared and there's suddenly a horde of orcs threatening the North. But we'll have to waite and see, ofcourse.


Quote
... where you get the idea that Gandalf is short. He is described as being fairly tall, isn't he?



I've been under the impression that he's of fairly average height and often slightly stooped and bent to boot. He's just very tall for the hobbits and wears a tall hat. He was mentioned looking like the most humble and small of the Istari when they first arrived to Middle-Earth. Galadriel on the other hand is huge by any measure, 6ft 4in. (193 cm)! I'm pretty sure that she'd tower over Gandalf, though not his hat.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 12 2013, 5:42pm


Views: 171
Yet it was important, as it derailed Sauron's initial plan. The retreat and return to Mordor was

a contingency plan, which Sauron began to prepare after Gandalf's second venture to Dol Guldur, foreseeing that the Wise would almost certainly attack him at some point. But he did not entirely abandon his other designs until his hand was forced. And his original intent had been to strike Lothlorien and Rivendell as the opening act of his Great War. "I felt then, and I am SURE now, that to attack Lorien and Rivendell as soon as he felt strong enough was his original plan. It would have been a much better plan for him, and much worse for us. . . You may think Rivendell was beyond his reach, but I did not think so. The state of things in The North was very bad. . ."

In Reply To

In Reply To
What strikes me very positively is that they seem to make the Battle for Dol Guldur a hard one for the White Council. No "we slammed Sauron... take that you Dark Lord!" - a hard battle in which key and mighty combatants are seriously injured.
.


I'm fairly sure that the battle for Dol Guldur was something of a curbstomb fight for the White Council because Sauron had actually already planned ahead and pretended to flee, actually setting himself up back in Mordor. I wouldn't be surprised if the White Council will find their fight a little too easy, only to discover that the guy in charge has dissappeared and there's suddenly a horde of orcs threatening the North. But we'll have to waite and see, ofcourse.


Quote
... where you get the idea that Gandalf is short. He is described as being fairly tall, isn't he?



I've been under the impression that he's of fairly average height and often slightly stooped and bent to boot. He's just very tall for the hobbits and wears a tall hat. He was mentioned looking like the most humble and small of the Istari when they first arrived to Middle-Earth. Galadriel on the other hand is huge by any measure, 6ft 4in. (193 cm)! I'm pretty sure that she'd tower over Gandalf, though not his hat.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Jan 12 2013, 5:50pm)


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Jan 12 2013, 9:08pm


Views: 174
LOTR-Council of Elrond he is shorter than Elrond & Glorfindel although this does not neccessarily make him short

UT-The Istari, he is descibed as "...who seemed the least, less tall than the others, and in looks more aged,...."

The History of the Hobbit-Bladorthin ii, Later in life Tolkien Described Gandalf the Grey as " a figure strongly built with broad shoulders, though shorter than the average of men and now stooped with age..." "...Gandalf even bent must have been at least 5'6" ....Which would make him a short man even in modern England, especially with the reduction of bent back."

All quotes Tolkien.

This later writing also refutes an earlier posters comment about Gandalf not being masculine with the words "strongly built with broad shoulders", sounds pretty masculine to me.


(This post was edited by ElendilTheShort on Jan 12 2013, 9:11pm)


Benevolent
The Shire

Jan 13 2013, 8:54pm


Views: 184
Galadriel vs The Istari

It's conceivable that Galadriel was more or less on par with the istari - but I'm guessing she was a notch below Saruman and Gandalf the grey - and very likely that they viewed each other as equals. In any case, she was probably superior in some ways and inferior in others. There are several examples of high-elves surpassing more potent beings. Sauron could not have made the palantiri and even the Valar could not have created the Silmarilli. Could the wizards have replicated Galadriel's mirror? Or captured the light of Eärendil?

There's reason to believe Galadriel was more perceptive than they were. She saw the darkness in Saruman, while Gandalf and Radagast apparently did not. Gandalf spent months with Boromir, but could not sense his desire for the one ring, whereas Galadriel knew the first time she laid eyes on him. She knew Gandalf was in trouble when he fell in Moria and sensed his return. She perceived the dark lord's mind concerning the elves, but he could not perceive hers.