The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
An Ancient Enemy and The Khazad Dum connection + Smaug Theme



Ave Moria
Rivendell


Jan 5 2013, 9:19pm


Views: 1007
An Ancient Enemy and The Khazad Dum connection + Smaug Theme

I have been listening to the score a bit, and one of my favorite moments to relive is the Thorin Azog battle at Moria, and I quickly noticed that while Azog is hammering away at Thorin's oaken shield, the ascending musical theme is almost note for note from sections of Khazad Dum's main motif. This is not laziness, but a conscious decision by Shore to connect the heavy melancholy and epicness of the Dwarves and their fall between these two pieces.

Very cool stuff.


I am also wondering if the Thorin Azog theme (which is NOT a Knife in the Dark) will be available.

Everyone keeps saying this is a Knife in the Dark, but it is really a Mordor motif heard of course in anything Nazgul related. The version in the Hobbit has staccato strings and heavy timpani that no prior version has. This theme looks to be a sort of remix, or building up of the earlier theme to echo the Mordor connection, which we will probably see in some fashion with Azog and the Necromancer.

EDIT: For more insight, read the liner notes for The Hobbit extended edition score, there is a quite a bit of insight into how and why themes were created.

For example, Smaug's Theme is teased in AUJ, and can be heard @ 4:17 in My Dear Frodo. If you listen, you will notice, as explained in the liner notes, this is a theme constructed with the note structure of Sauron's Theme, but sort of inverted.

I am wondering if there is a connection here, especially since Sauron's eye is almost identical to Smaug's.

-In the Darkness, a torch we hold-

(This post was edited by Ave Moria on Jan 5 2013, 9:26pm)


FlyingSerkis
Rivendell


Jan 5 2013, 9:27pm


Views: 549
I agree about the Khazad-Dum connection

Shore done good with this one Cool

But...


In Reply To
I am also wondering if the Thorin Azog theme (which is NOT a Knife in the Dark) will be available.

Everyone keeps saying this is a Knife in the Dark, but it is really a Mordor motif heard of course in anything Nazgul related. The version in the Hobbit has staccato strings and heavy timpani that no prior version has. This theme looks to be a sort of remix, or building up of the earlier theme to echo the Mordor connection, which we will probably see in some fashion with Azog and the Necromancer.


It is the musical theme that has always been known as the "Ringwraiths" theme, famously appearing in "A Knife in the Dark" as well as all the other Nazgul scenes in FOTR (plus the prologue battle which admittedly wasn't directly about the Nazgul), but it is re-arranged and, importantly, with a different choral text[ (i.e. not "Revelation of the Ringwraiths"). What Shore means by this is yet to be seen, but it could be very interesting. I'm not sure it was the right decision though, as I and many others found it quite distracting in the cinema on first viewing (I'll be prepared for it second time round though! Smile)

Then Manwë and Yavanna parted for that time, and Yavanna returned to Aulë; and he was in his smithy, pouring molten metal into a mould. 'Eru is bountiful,' she said. 'Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril.'

'Nonetheless they will have need of wood,' said Aulë, and he went on with his smith-work.


Ave Moria
Rivendell


Jan 5 2013, 9:30pm


Views: 514
Cool!

 What Shore means by this is yet to be seen, but it could be very interesting. I'm not sure it was the right decision though, as I and many others found it quite distracting in the cinema on first viewing (I'll be prepared for it second time round though! Smile)


I love this thought! Sort of a musical prelude to film events. I wonder how this will play out?

I too was a bit shocked when I heard the Nazgul theme, but I also LOVED it's use. I think it clearly worked great for the scene if you can take prior expectations out of the equation.

-In the Darkness, a torch we hold-


FlyingSerkis
Rivendell


Jan 5 2013, 9:42pm


Views: 500
Interestingly

The music at the end of the CD track "Out of the Frying Pan", which presumably was originally intended for this scene, is fairly similar to the music used (maybe a tiny bit less forceful/dramatic), in terms of overall sound. Instead of the "Ringwraiths" theme, however, the actual notes of the music sound rather more like dwarven music such as was heard in Moria in FOTR. I think it's pretty cool, but it ultimately wasn't used in the film.

In my opinion, the music heard on the CD would have achieved pretty much the same effect as the music used on film ignoring any baggage about thematic things. Therefore, I think the change had to be for a thematic reason, rather than PJ saying "we need something more dramatic here!" So, I'm trying to say that, surely, surely, Shore and Jackson have something specific in mind with this change of theme.

Then Manwë and Yavanna parted for that time, and Yavanna returned to Aulë; and he was in his smithy, pouring molten metal into a mould. 'Eru is bountiful,' she said. 'Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril.'

'Nonetheless they will have need of wood,' said Aulë, and he went on with his smith-work.

(This post was edited by FlyingSerkis on Jan 5 2013, 9:43pm)


Magpie
Immortal


Jan 5 2013, 9:49pm


Views: 584
I made a comment to a friend, privately, as we discussed the soundtrack and some of the conundrums it's presented

I discussed (at length, as befits a magpie) about some of the possible explanations for these seemingly out of place themes and then ended with:

This music all has to make sense but, ultimately, it is a active, breathing, creative art form. It is not math with Venn diagrams and spread sheets. I think the fans have pushed for the theme concept to be much more concrete than Shore might have liked. If we weren't all studying it so intently, would we notice the use of the Ringwraiths, Martial Lothlorien, or Gondor Reborn themes as being 'out of place?'



Here's what I said, in its entirety:

...there are three possibilities:
The music was chosen and used deliberately by Shore and it means something.

The music was chosen and used deliberately by Shore and it means nothing (Doug did say something about, I think, the use of the Gondor Reborn theme that amounted to: don't be too literal in thinking about what themes mean)

The music was stuck in by Jackson because there was last minute editing being done and he needed something and nothing else could be prepared in time. Remember the decision to make this three movies came quite late in the game. And similar things were done during TTT which was a rush job in many ways.


So, if it's one of the last two possibilities, it's kind of useless looking for connections.

There were some themes in LOTR that changed 'alliances' or broadened in meaning.

For example:
Isengard Theme - this was used to refer very directly to Saruman. In ROTK, they mixed it with other themes even after Isengard fell.

Five Beat Pattern - In the FOTR and TTT, it was assigned to the category of Isengard and the Orcs and can be heard alone to represent Isengard, underlying the Isengard theme, or alone to represent forces of Mordor (other than Isengard). In the ROTK with the dimming of Isengard's power, the Five Beat Pattern was realigned to Mordor.

The same is true with Cruelty of the Orcs.


Also, I think - although Shore surely intended to use themes from early on in the LOTR scoring process - how they were used and how they were categorized changed as the work developed.
From my website:
History of the Ring theme: HS had originally referred to this music, heard at the Argonoth, as a theme for Gondor Theme . But in the appendices of TTT EE DVD, he refers to it as the 'History of the Ring' Theme and that name has persisted since.

Shore quote from FOTR commentary: There’s a theme that’s used in the very beginning of the film that has to do with the history of the Ring. Cause in the prologue is explaining how the ring was forged and all historical references to the Ring. And there’s a theme that’s used there that’s actually a Gondorian theme that you hear as the Fellowship goes through the Argonath and then into Amon Hen. We see ruined statuary of Gondor and you hear that theme.

Shore also refers to "Frodo's Theme" in the FOTR commentary even though, in the end, no theme was attributed solely to Frodo. So what ever he thought of as 'Frodo's Theme' became something larger.

So, it could be that, in Shore's mind, what a certain theme represents is just getting broader over time and usage.

This music all has to make sense but, ultimately, it is a active, breathing, creative art form. It is not math with Venn diagrams and spread sheets. I think the fans have pushed for the theme concept to be much more concrete than Shore might have liked. If we weren't all studying it so intently, would we notice the use of the Ringwraiths, Martial Lothlorien, or Gondor Reborn themes as being 'out of place?'

I guess, ultimately, it remains to be seen as we either get an explanation that illuminates it all or we get a 'don't be too literal' explanation.

np: A Good Omen. :-)


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Ave Moria
Rivendell


Jan 5 2013, 9:50pm


Views: 485
I see but your saying but-

I just think the theme on the CD is not as strong as the Nazgul theme. It's a good theme on its own, but when you put it to the scene it just lacked the same impact. Just my opinion.

I think PJ's decision is two-fold, thematic and not enough oomph. PJ thinks thematically, as does Boyens and Walsh (as a team), so someone probably said this isn't working with the edit, and then some sort of emotional down payment was discovered with relation to later events with Azog and Thorin, and boom, the Nazgul theme fit the requirements.

PJ's probably memo to Shore. Record the Nazgul theme in studio, but add more movement and drive. Boom, There you go.

All speculation, but just my opinion.

-In the Darkness, a torch we hold-


Ave Moria
Rivendell


Jan 5 2013, 10:02pm


Views: 464
Fantastic post

I totally agree.

Anyone familiar with the scoring process knows that things are in a constant state of flux. Edits change after scores are complete, creating situations where the composer either has to chop up his work to fit, use temp tracks or something else entirely.

By the final cut of the film, and the score, it looks like some things were always there, and some came late in the game. For example, The Defiler theme is in the Weathertop scene, so Azog wasn't added too late, BUT the Nazgul theme during Thorin's fight was changed, suggesting this scene went through some 11th hour editing, or maybe it didn't and the score just didn't work in PJ's eyes.

Anyway, you spoke in general to the point I have been trying to make. Don't get so hung up on this theme or that, they all have different thematic permutations they can take, according to the moment or the character.

A good composer knows he has to come up with about 5 themes per score, and then each one of those has to withstand the mutation test; i.e.: it has to be re-written fast, sad, epic, funny etc, and has to be equally as strong across the board.

Shore is no dummy and is insanely knowledgable and talented. This guy is one of the last great composers and a rare one who actually writes and orchestrates his scores. If he includes a theme here or there that surprises or stuns fans, it's not out of laziness or anything like that. Be assured he has something up his sleeve and nothing is done by accident (usually).

-In the Darkness, a torch we hold-


FlyingSerkis
Rivendell


Jan 5 2013, 10:16pm


Views: 443
Great post, as ever

You're of course right that we need to be careful about thinking too literally and calculatingly about the themes.

Re: one of your scenarios...


In Reply To
...
The music was stuck in by Jackson because there was last minute editing being done and he needed something and nothing else could be prepared in time. Remember the decision to make this three movies came quite late in the game. And similar things were done during TTT which was a rush job in many ways.


I would add that, as far as I understand, the "interesting" thematic choices in AUJ were all recorded specifically for this film (and, I would guess, their specific scenes), as opposed to some of the changes in TTT which were lifted from the FOTR score because there was not time to record something new.


In Reply To
There were some themes in LOTR that changed 'alliances' or broadened in meaning.


Absolutely right, and I wonder if we are getting that with the ringwraith theme. It's not at all clear at this stage, but hopefully it will be!

I have mentioned elsewhere that this is a possible "excuse" for the martial Lothlorien theme (I really don't think the appearance of that theme is an "issue" at all, but I know some do).


In Reply To
From my website:
History of the Ring theme: HS had originally referred to this music, heard at the Argonoth, as a theme for Gondor Theme . But in the appendices of TTT EE DVD, he refers to it as the 'History of the Ring' Theme and that name has persisted since.

Shore quote from FOTR commentary: There’s a theme that’s used in the very beginning of the film that has to do with the history of the Ring. Cause in the prologue is explaining how the ring was forged and all historical references to the Ring. And there’s a theme that’s used there that’s actually a Gondorian theme that you hear as the Fellowship goes through the Argonath and then into Amon Hen. We see ruined statuary of Gondor and you hear that theme.


That is really interesting, thanks for that Smile

I suppose that comment was recorded after the film score had been finalised? Because if not, he might have been referring to the version of the Argonath sequence recorded which had the theme "The Realm of Gondor" on it, instead of "The History of the Ring". If it was, though, I'm rather confused as to what he's on about Crazy Angelic


In Reply To
This music all has to make sense but, ultimately, it is a active, breathing, creative art form. It is not math with Venn diagrams and spread sheets. I think the fans have pushed for the theme concept to be much more concrete than Shore might have liked. If we weren't all studying it so intently, would we notice the use of the Ringwraiths, Martial Lothlorien, or Gondor Reborn themes as being 'out of place?'


Too true. Thanks for reminding me. I guess, though, that I'm still a little... disappointed about the "Gondor Reborn" appearance, because I just think that theme was so well-crafted out of the glorious "Minas Tirith" theme and its first appearance in "A Coronal of Silver and Gold" is just so wonderful, that I feel that accepting its presence in The Hobbit would somehow diminish its meaning in ROTK. Maybe I'm just being stubborn and stupid - after all, the score to ROTK hasn't changed at all because of this!


In Reply To
I guess, ultimately, it remains to be seen as we either get an explanation that illuminates it all or we get a 'don't be too literal' explanation.


Yup Smile Consider me hoping for more of the former! Wink

Then Manwë and Yavanna parted for that time, and Yavanna returned to Aulë; and he was in his smithy, pouring molten metal into a mould. 'Eru is bountiful,' she said. 'Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril.'

'Nonetheless they will have need of wood,' said Aulë, and he went on with his smith-work.


Elessar
Valinor


Jan 5 2013, 10:38pm


Views: 419
Very well written

I've never really set down an looked at the music as closely as some. It's one of those things for me it just works. The music in The Lord of the Rings is just so well placed its mind boggling. For me in The Hobbit it's got so many new bits that I'm growing to love quickly, and then you toss in some familiar bits making another great listen. I would say the last time I watched The Hobbit I picked out the new stuff much easier.



Skaan
Lorien


Jan 5 2013, 10:54pm


Views: 463
About the Nazgul theme

I always thought they used that theme because it was Sauron who resurected Azog, and they used that theme to give a little hint to that.


Roheryn
Tol Eressea

Jan 6 2013, 12:08am


Views: 401
Fascinating thread -- thanks!

I was just sitting enjoying a rare quiet moment at home and working on digesting the soundtrack, which Mr. Ro bought for me a few days ago.

Like many others, I was initially surprised by the appearance of the Ringwraith them in the final Azog/Thorin showdown. There's so much going on there in the movie that I've had a hard time focusing on just the music, but you're right that it's not exactly A Knife in the Dark -- Shore has upped the tension and drama with, as you describe, the stacatto strings and heavy timpani underlying the Nazgul theme. Something old, something new. Why? Why the Nazgul theme there? I think Magpie's spot-on with her three possibilities, and I'll vote for the first one (mostly because I would hope neither PJ nor Shore would re-use such a recognizable theme at random): that Shore chose it deliberately for its meaning.

However, I felt in the movie that the Nazgul theme was used specifically for Thorin's charge down the pine tree -- i.e., we heard it when the focus was on Thorin, not on Azog. Thus I really wondered why the Nazgul were referenced in Thorin's charge -- could this be foreshadowing and if so, of what? Or maybe during that scene I'm just oblivious to Azog's screentime and that's why it seems the music is all about Thorin!

And I too really wish that part of the score was in the soundtrack. "Out of the Frying Pan" is a bit disappointing without it!

Also, could you give the timing on the cd for the part where Azog's hammering away at Thorin in the Battle of Azanulbizar? I want to make sure I'm listening to the right bit.

Great discussion and thanks for getting it going!


Ave Moria
Rivendell


Jan 6 2013, 1:28am


Views: 361
Thanks for the nice words

I too agree that I am waiting to hear the Nazgul theme now when listening to the score. Hopefully, a final score release will remedy this, a sort of directors cut if you will.

At 1:56 in "An Ancient Enemy" Balin says "It was then that I saw him. A young Dwarf Prince facing down the Pale Orc."

Shivers @ 2:03 and Azog lays into Thorin

Thorin severs Azog's arm at 2:38

Again, lay in the drums from The Bridge of Khazad Dum and the chanting underneath and you have something that matches the original in Fellowship in many ways (if you follow)

-In the Darkness, a torch we hold-


Magpie
Immortal


Jan 6 2013, 2:42am


Views: 339
you need to start a website

haha...

It's the sort of info that people want and once you've worked it out, why not put it in an easy place for people to find it?

It was that simple question that got me started on a LOTR score website.

:-)


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Roheryn
Tol Eressea

Jan 6 2013, 6:48am


Views: 298
Ah, and thank *you*!

Much more fun listening to that track with the notes on timing.

But I'm curious: is your musical memory really that good to remember what happens at exactly which musical cue (mine's not!), or have you taken notes, or...?


MEIGWIT
Bree


Jan 6 2013, 8:50am


Views: 320
Think I've found the answer possibly

Well, not really an answer, but just an idea of where this charge down the tree music comes from. It is not based on A Knife in the Dark necessarily, but much more based off of the music from the prologue in FOTR. If you go back and listen here:

@2:15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNx8tz4qVeI

you can hear the theme all the theme play out including the dramatic drums that are similar to those when Thorin is clinched in the jaws of the Warg and then thrown. However, it has definitely been re-recorded for The Hobbit and scored originally to match this film. It is clearly not a Ringwraith only theme, but a Mordor theme or even something else that I'm not sure I should say. I'll say it, but I must elaborate:

If you think about the Ringwraiths and Sauron and the enemy in general, what are they? They are prideful, twisted, vengeful, full of malice, and anger right? Well, Thorin is not a bright, righteous, and noble character per-say. He is very deep and complicated. Now, what is Thorin doing in this scene? He is filled with pride, anger, vengeance, and dare I say malice himself. Instead of doing the noble heroic deed of turning to save his fellow dwarves from falling to their deaths, he rises and charges alone, foolishly and pridefully. Pride comes before the fall and fall Thorin does. I feel the music, while it was jarring for me at first too, is unbelievably genius on the part of Jackson and Shore. Had the finished film stuck with the original scoring, if it was even the original scoring (it seems to be the case), thorin would have looked as if he was making the heroic and noble decision. The music would have told the wrong story. With this finished product and, for lack of better term, "Nazgul theme" we cannot help but see Thorin's weaknesses being revealed to their full extent, by his foolish and prideful decision.

So to sum it all up, the theme may not be Ringwraith or even Mordor, but now it seems that the theme is really about ill intent, malice, anger, vengeance, pride, and so on. Thorin's companions are dangling over the cliff, about to fall to their death and yet he chooses to go on a suicide charge alone. It is foolish, so therefore he gets this dark and dramatic theme for his dark and prideful charge.

This is a fantastic discussion and I loved reading all the previous posts! I hope my post helps and if it doesn't I'm sorry. This is all just my opinion of course, but I for one loved the theme that was used. I don't feel it can really be labeled the "Nazgul theme" fairly since it was used heavily in the prologue and no Nazguls were present. Now it is also used for Thorin. So, take my thoughts as you will. Tongue

It is the little things in life that keep the darkness at bay.


Ave Moria
Rivendell


Jan 6 2013, 8:55am


Views: 302
OMG

And I don't usually say "OMG"

You just BLEW my mind, seriously.

First of all, I didn't even realize this is so close to the Last Alliance prologue. When Sauron appears with his arm carrying the Mace in closeup, that is the same music as when Thorin is thrown and Azog rears to in pride.

Second, I think you NAILED the interpretation of this better than anyone else.

Truly an exciting read.

-In the Darkness, a torch we hold-


Ave Moria
Rivendell


Jan 6 2013, 8:58am


Views: 301
BTW


In Reply To
Well, not really an answer, but just an idea of where this charge down the tree music comes from. It is not based on A Knife in the Dark necessarily, but much more based off of the music from the prologue in FOTR. If you go back and listen here:

@2:15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNx8tz4qVeI

you can hear the theme all the theme play out including the dramatic drums that are similar to those when Thorin is clinched in the jaws of the Warg and then thrown. However, it has definitely been re-recorded for The Hobbit and scored originally to match this film. It is clearly not a Ringwraith only theme, but a Mordor theme or even something else that I'm not sure I should say. I'll say it, but I must elaborate:

If you think about the Ringwraiths and Sauron and the enemy in general, what are they? They are prideful, twisted, vengeful, full of malice, and anger right? Well, Thorin is not a bright, righteous, and noble character per-say. He is very deep and complicated. Now, what is Thorin doing in this scene? He is filled with pride, anger, vengeance, and dare I say malice himself. Instead of doing the noble heroic deed of turning to save his fellow dwarves from falling to their deaths, he rises and charges alone, foolishly and pridefully. Pride comes before the fall and fall Thorin does. I feel the music, while it was jarring for me at first too, is unbelievably genius on the part of Jackson and Shore. Had the finished film stuck with the original scoring, if it was even the original scoring (it seems to be the case), thorin would have looked as if he was making the heroic and noble decision. The music would have told the wrong story. With this finished product and, for lack of better term, "Nazgul theme" we cannot help but see Thorin's weaknesses being revealed to their full extent, by his foolish and prideful decision.

So to sum it all up, the theme may not be Ringwraith or even Mordor, but now it seems that the theme is really about ill intent, malice, anger, vengeance, pride, and so on. Thorin's companions are dangling over the cliff, about to fall to their death and yet he chooses to go on a suicide charge alone. It is foolish, so therefore he gets this dark and dramatic theme for his dark and prideful charge.

This is a fantastic discussion and I loved reading all the previous posts! I hope my post helps and if it doesn't I'm sorry. This is all just my opinion of course, but I for one loved the theme that was used. I don't feel it can really be labeled the "Nazgul theme" fairly since it was used heavily in the prologue and no Nazguls were present. Now it is also used for Thorin. So, take my thoughts as you will. Tongue


I finally found someone who doesn't think this theme was written for the Nazgul besides me.

It seems like some unholy national anthem for Mordor itself. The fact it plays during the last Alliance battle PRECEDING the Nazgul PROVES it is not owned solely by them.

The Nazgul are defined by the theme, not the other way around. This theme is clearly a Mordor motif.

-In the Darkness, a torch we hold-


MEIGWIT
Bree


Jan 6 2013, 8:59am


Views: 318
Holy Moly!!!! (POSSIBLE SPOILER)

You just spawned something else in my mind!!!! You mentioning mace just made me realize is AZOG WIELDING SAURON'S MACE???!?!?!?!?!

It is the little things in life that keep the darkness at bay.

(This post was edited by entmaiden on Jan 6 2013, 1:39pm)


MEIGWIT
Bree


Jan 6 2013, 9:09am


Views: 314
Ok

I got a little excited, I'd have to see it again, but it very well might connect just about everything! Maybe. That would make me so happy if he was wielding Sauron's mace!

It is the little things in life that keep the darkness at bay.


DanielLB
Immortal


Jan 6 2013, 10:28am


Views: 282
It's a different shape

See here - there's various gifs on tumblr. You can see that Azog's is a different shape to Sauron's mace.


Arannir
Valinor

Jan 6 2013, 12:26pm


Views: 256
This makes it much better for me...

... I did not realize yet that there is a different choral text.

Is there a translation for what is sung in the LotR-choral? And already one for the new one?


FlyingSerkis
Rivendell


Jan 6 2013, 12:39pm


Views: 252
There is a translation for the LOTR

I've got it from a page on Magpie's site:

Nêbâbîtham Magânanê
We renounce our Maker.

Nêtabdam dâur-ad
We cleave to the darkness.

Nêpâm nêd abârat-aglar
We take unto ourselves the power and glory.

îdô Nidir nênâkham
Behold! We are the Nine,

Bârî’n Katharâd
The Lords of Unending Life.


There is no translation for the Hobbit as yet as far as I know, yet it is audibly different from what is heard in "Revelation".

Then Manwë and Yavanna parted for that time, and Yavanna returned to Aulë; and he was in his smithy, pouring molten metal into a mould. 'Eru is bountiful,' she said. 'Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril.'

'Nonetheless they will have need of wood,' said Aulë, and he went on with his smith-work.


FlyingSerkis
Rivendell


Jan 6 2013, 12:47pm


Views: 251
Fantastic thought!

That's a very cool explanation. I'd like to add one thing... is Thorin wearing one of the 7 dwarven rings?

Sauron had hoped that those 7 rings would do the same to the dwarves as the 9 did to the men - this obviously didn't happen. However, such a ring could indeed exagerrate some of what you call "pride, anger, vengeance, and dare I say malice" that Thorin is showing. Also, that sense of single-mindedness, which is also very relevant to the theme: when used in the FOTR prologue, it is about the single-mindedness of Sauron's destruction (and is very much to do with the evil of the ring). When used for the Nazgul, it is about the single-mindedness given to them by Sauron to take back the ring, which is caused by the 9 rings that the Nazgul are wearing. With Thorin, it is the single-mindedness of revenge - and, as I propose, is somewhat caused by the dwarven ring.

Of course, I can't recall if it has been noted whether Thorin is wearing a ring Blush Crazy If he is, I would say that makes the musical connection stronger.

Then Manwë and Yavanna parted for that time, and Yavanna returned to Aulë; and he was in his smithy, pouring molten metal into a mould. 'Eru is bountiful,' she said. 'Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril.'

'Nonetheless they will have need of wood,' said Aulë, and he went on with his smith-work.


Arannir
Valinor

Jan 6 2013, 1:21pm


Views: 234
Thanks so much!

 


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Jan 6 2013, 1:22pm


Views: 237
As far as canon goes...

Thrain had the "last of the Seven" which was taken from him in Dol Guldur.

Whether PJ has decided to keep to this for his movieverse if anyone's guess...


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






Magpie
Immortal


Jan 6 2013, 2:14pm


Views: 175
not sure what you mean *exactly* by...

"I finally found someone who doesn't think this theme was written for the Nazgul besides me."

If you mean you don't think this music written for LOTR was for the Nazgul you're wrong. It was. Doug writes (pg 101 in da Book) "The Ringwraiths earn the most prominent and ritualistic of the Mordor themes." He then explains how the music is tied into The History of the Ring theme.

But if you mean it wasn't 'written' in the Hobbit for the Nazgul, you could be (and surely are) right. But then, I don't think many of us think that. It's more likely that the music was written originally for The Nazgul and it's application/meaning is being broadened in The Hobbit.


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MEIGWIT
Bree


Jan 6 2013, 3:32pm


Views: 162
Ah

So it is. Probably wouldn't have made sense and now that I've had a night's sleep, I realize that. But it still could have been just slightly cool if it had been Sauron's mace, in my opinion. Wink

It is the little things in life that keep the darkness at bay.


MEIGWIT
Bree


Jan 6 2013, 3:37pm


Views: 167
but but but

You can't deny the fact that it is used heavily and dramatically in the Prologue. Therefore I don't think it can be called the "ringwraith" theme. It just doesn't make sense to me if it's already been used for multiple baddies. Then again the book says so, ah well. I still think I'm right teehee Tongue

It is the little things in life that keep the darkness at bay.


RalphDamiani
Rivendell

Jan 6 2013, 3:44pm


Views: 159
The Morgoth connection

Perhaps they have a similar theme because both dragons and Sauron served the same dark lord? We heard the Lothlorien theme for the Rivendell lancers, so perhaps it's the Noldor theme now?

I think they're just using the themes we previously associated with places and characters on a grander scale and linking them to the history of Middle-Earth.


Magpie
Immortal


Jan 6 2013, 4:57pm


Views: 161
well, then.. you're getting into the 'can I disagree with the Artist' argument

one I've made myself at times.

You made the statement that it wasn't written for the Ringwraiths. It *was* written for the Ringwraiths in LOTR. I don't want someone reading your statement and thinking you're right in regards to LOTR when you're not.

And then you don't think it can be called the Ringwraith theme but, up to this moment, that is the only thing by which is has been called by the composer and anyone speaking on his behalf.

Information from official sources may deal with any shift in meaning for this music by renaming it. But it hasn't been done yet. The thing is, (and I tried to make this point) this change in 'meaning' or 'alliance' has happened before and been dealt with in a variety of ways. And I think we get too hung up on names and meaning. It's music and it's meant to help us understand the story and entertain us. In the end, it doesn't matter what we call it. It matters if it worked in the situation or not. That is a worthy conversation to be sure.

It's not so important to me that Shore be 'right' but that people reading information about the score (LOTR anyhow) understand what is official information and what is fan speculation or opinion. And we can have a worthy conversation on our speculation and opinion. We just need to be clear with our statements and saying it wasn't written for the Ringwraiths or it isn't a Ringwraith theme is not accurate. At least not without being more precise in how one says it (like I said, we might speculate that it wasn't written for use in *The Hobbit* to represent the Ringwraiths).

It's an important point and one I work hard at achieving on my website. Enough so that I've included copious notes on what is *my* stuff and what is *official* stuff and when do I get to disagree. :-)

And, for what it's worth, I think your speculation on what it means now... now that they're expanding the meaning out from the Ringwraiths to something *else*... is very good. I can totally buy it as a viable explanation.


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(This post was edited by Magpie on Jan 6 2013, 4:59pm)


MEIGWIT
Bree


Jan 7 2013, 7:21am


Views: 127
I'm sorry

No need for hostility friend. I didn't intend my previous post to be taken too seriously! It was just a bit of fun! I don't intend to question what Shore has said himself nor do I intend to create confusion on this board. But, it is a message board after all and none of it should be taken too seriously. Everyone, in my opinion, should take most of what goes on here on these boards as speculation. That is what the majority of posts here are after all. I feel most of the time it goes without being said. However, I absolutely did say that it was all my opinion on the matter. So, technically I did specify. Wink I don't think we should take it this seriously. It's all in good fun and I've enjoyed the conversation.

Now, you said that I made a statement saying it was not written for the Ringwraiths and I guess that is partially true. I don't have a darn clue what Shore has said, I just know what I've seen in the films and what I have stumbled across over these past 12 years, but honestly it's really beside the point. I simply read this board and posed the question to myself: Ok, this song plays in LOTR for the Ringwraiths quite often, but it also plays in the prologue heavily, so what is the real meaning of it? The only logical conclusion to follow is that though it may have been "written," as you tell me, for the Ringwraiths originally, the theme grew to have a deeper and darker meaning across the whole of Middle-earth. Once fellowship was released, and really before because the decision needed to be made before release, it was no longer "written" for the Ringwraiths alone. That's all I'm saying and so my post was simply my opinion on the matter, my "speculation."

And it's not really even about being right and wrong or even official. I'm not trying to disagree with any artist as I'm a filmmaker and artist myself. Art is subjective and does not exist without speculation. So I'm subjected to Middle-earth, which I love, and am speculating as good message boards allow me to do. And still it should not be such a serious and scholarly matter, but I feel often times that's what we all try to do here on these boards. We work way too hard to differentiate and decide what is right and wrong rather than just sit back, enjoy what one group of fans, PJ and company, have created, as well as enjoy each other's speculation. We try to label things as "official" when "official" is really just subjective and full of speculation in itself when broken down.

Hope there's no hard feelings, again I didn't mean my previous post about being right to be taken as anything but irony. Smile

It is the little things in life that keep the darkness at bay.


Magpie
Immortal


Jan 7 2013, 4:36pm


Views: 111
Not an ounce of hostility!

I think if you had a chance to look around my site you'd see I have a whole section entitled: Official information and when I get to disagree with it.

All I was doing was putting a context to your comments. They aren't wrong and I'm not angry or hostile. (perhaps I need to use more emoticons)

If you don't have a darn clue what Shore has said, I can clue you in! I know what he's said. It doesn't mean you don't get to have your own opinion but you should know what he thinks and says.

To put some context on how I approach the music, you could read these two sections of my site:

HOWARD SHORE, DOUG ADAMS & ME - and my right to disagree

"the composers’ intentions are the key to understanding their work" : sometimes

The most pertinent part is this:

Quote
The goal is multifold, imo. First, to seek to be educated about as much as one can, from as valid a source as one can. Second, to allow for thoughts other than the 'official line' to exist and be discussed. Third, to understand the difference between the two approaches when forming an opinion, stating a point, or debating an issue. That goes for both 'sides'... that is: people who gravitate towards one approach strongly. If you're all fact based... lighten up sometimes. If you're all personal opinion based... educate yourself. Learn to listen as much as you like to talk. Understand where the other party is coming from and allow for differences in approach.


And I'm not aiming that comment at you. It was formed (years ago) from people I've encountered over the last 10 years discussing Tolkien, the movies, and/or the score. But it is important to me that information be accurate and accurately attributed to 'official line' and 'personal thought'.

I'm not so sure official is subjective when it's codified into the written word. If Shore says "X", then "X" sure seems like official information. If I think "Y", I wouldn't want one person in the world to think that was official. I want them all to know it was my opinion and that their mileage might vary.

But to bring this around, I am not actually disagreeing with you. Only seeking to clarify/qualify some statements you made as not accurate when it comes to what Shore has said (in some cases, many times) about the music. I don't disagree with your opinion on the music at all. And I think you are right to want to take interpretation of the music past what Shore has already said.


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MEIGWIT
Bree


Jan 7 2013, 5:17pm


Views: 102
ah

Ok haha, sorry. It's very hard to discern feelings on these boards sometimes. I see what you are saying now and I agree that information is confusing as it is, so we should try our hardest to help each other discern official from outside speculation. Very good! Smile

It is the little things in life that keep the darkness at bay.


Magpie
Immortal


Jan 7 2013, 5:21pm


Views: 132
fantastic

I tend to write in a very straightforward factual way and accuracy is important to me (I think because I strive so hard to achieve it for my website).

So I can see where someone might misread my tone. I'm generally much more relaxed than people take me for in writing - although when riled, I can nip a little.

I'm glad you're thinking about the music and I wouldn't be at all surprised, when we get more information on the sountdrack, to find you're right about the music now known as the Ringwraith's Theme.


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(This post was edited by Magpie on Jan 7 2013, 5:21pm)