The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The view of the Lonely Mountain from the Carrock



Eruonen
Half-elven


Dec 30 2012, 6:52pm


Views: 2905
The view of the Lonely Mountain from the Carrock
Using Karen Fonstad's map and mileage, The Lonely Mountain is about 250 miles away. The question is, could The Company have seen the peak at that distance?
There is a formula:

The formula for calculating maximum line of sight distance d is

d = SQRT (2Rh + h EXP 2) where R is radius of Earth and h is height above sea level
an approximation when h << R is d = SQRT (13h) using metric values
For a 14,000 foot peak that would give about 145-200 miles maximum line of sight distance.

So, if the Carrock is tall enough...higher than 14,000...it may be possible to just see the peak, with the help of oxygen tanks.

http://cosmoquest.org/...5403c5ea90dbededb629

One coimmeter said:
"From the snowline on Mt. Hood, I could see the Three Sisters about 100 miles away."

So, the scene was a literal stretch, but I understand why it was the ending of AUJ.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Dec 30 2012, 6:58pm)


YaznegSouth40
Rivendell

Dec 30 2012, 6:59pm


Views: 1937
How tall are they depicting....
the Lonely Mountain to be in these films? In looking up the height online for the Lonely Mountain it is said to be around 3,500 ft ( Minas Tirith was 1,000 ft plus up to the white tower of Ecthelion). Probably could not be seen from that far at that height. But at 12,000-14,000 feet it could probably be seen from there above Mirkwood.


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Dec 30 2012, 7:00pm


Views: 1885
Here we go, this is why we love geeks //
 


Eruonen
Half-elven


Dec 30 2012, 7:01pm


Views: 1891
Probaly not, the graph below indicates at 1000' 27 miles.
http://i35.photobucket.com/...ens/LineofSight2.jpg


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Dec 30 2012, 7:04pm


Views: 1869
A bit of a stretch indeed,
I can see Mt. Rainier (14,409 foot elevation) from my home, but it is only 80 miles away, and I am about 210 feet above sea level.

The stretch is Bilbo and the others seeing it at all over Mirkwood from that distance, even from the Carrock. In the book, Bilbo's first sight of the Lonely Mountain is after he escaped with the Dwarves on the barrels, and is approaching Long Lake.
" Well well!", said a voice. "Just look! Bilbo the hobbit on a pony, my dear! Isn't it delicious!"
"Most astonishing wonderful!"

(This post was edited by Aragalen the Green on Dec 30 2012, 7:06pm)


Altaira
Superuser


Dec 30 2012, 7:05pm


Views: 1911
The Carrock doesn't have to be 14,000 ft. tall
It just has to be 14,000 above sea level is how I'm reading the formula. I'm sitting over a mile high (5,280 feet) as I type this and I'm about 6 miles away from the closest mountain. Smile

Does it affects things if the mountian being viewed is at a lower elevation? From memory, driving over some of the highest passes in north-central Colorado, I can make out mountain ranges that are in the southern part of the state and they would be at least 200 to 250 miles away.

I'm not saying the movie didn't exaggerate, because I think it did (just like looking at the mountains of Mordor from Gondor in ROTK) but, from my own experience living in a state with lots of mountains, I don't think it exaggerated completely beyond belief.

Btw, I love stuff like this. Thanks for posting it!

Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.


"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase




dormouse
Half-elven


Dec 30 2012, 7:10pm


Views: 1862
Poetic licence? //
 


Eruonen
Half-elven


Dec 30 2012, 7:12pm


Views: 1858
Being a flatlander, I look to those of you who have elevated
views provde the best real world estimates.

The closest view for me would be:
"You can see up to 50 miles on a clear day from the skydeck at the top of the Sears (Willis) Tower. (1,353 feet)"


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Dec 30 2012, 7:19pm)


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Dec 30 2012, 7:23pm


Views: 1894
Well, in The Two Towers,
Gandalf and Aragorn could see Mordor from Helm's Deep.

In these movies, you're dealing with Jackson geography, not Tolkien or Fonstadt geography. Jackson's Middle-earth can seem surprisingly small.


YaznegSouth40
Rivendell

Dec 30 2012, 7:29pm


Views: 1847
No geek here....Quacking Troll
just a big Tolkien fan...because this is probably the only fantasy (Tolkien's world) I even am a fan of!


(This post was edited by YaznegSouth40 on Dec 30 2012, 7:31pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Dec 30 2012, 7:33pm


Views: 1830
They could even talk to Saruman atop Orthanc without shouting! /
 

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Eruonen
Half-elven


Dec 30 2012, 7:38pm


Views: 1831
Granted, I allow the dramatic vistas for the movies as improbable
as they are, because that is necessary for the film. This was just a curiosity question, not a criticism per se of the film.


MTT Gandalf
Bree


Dec 30 2012, 7:47pm


Views: 1914
Book-version
  
In the book the Lonely Mountain can be seen from the Misty Mountains:

"At last they came up the long road, and reached the very pass where the goblins had captured them before. But they came to that high point at morning, and looking backward they saw a white sun shining over the out-stretched lands. There behind lay Mirkwood, blue in the distance, and darkly green at the nearer edge even in the spring. There far away was the Lonely Mountain on the edge of eyesight. On its highest peak snow yet unmelted was gleaming pale. "So comes snow after fire, and even dragons have their ending!" said Bilbo, and he turned his back on his adventure."


Altaira
Superuser


Dec 30 2012, 7:51pm


Views: 1813
Here's a good example
It's a picture of the view from the top of Mount Evans here in Colorado. One of the things noted in the sign are the Sangre de Cristo mountains which are almost 200 miles away. Of course, you can't see them very well, which is why I said they definitely did exaggerate in the movie. Besides, the Carrock would probably have to be above the tree-line for them to see so far and it didn't look like it was in the movie.

Still, it's fun to speculate about geeky things like this, so thanks once again! Smile

Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.


"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase




The Mitch King
Rohan


Dec 30 2012, 7:56pm


Views: 1802
I'm pretty sure...
they just did that so they could do the final scene of following the thrush all the way to Erebor so we could have a nice closing view of Smaug.


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Dec 30 2012, 7:57pm


Views: 1838
I had forgotten this!
Thank you for remembering :)
" Well well!", said a voice. "Just look! Bilbo the hobbit on a pony, my dear! Isn't it delicious!"
"Most astonishing wonderful!"


Rostron2
Gondor


Dec 30 2012, 8:29pm


Views: 1779
Simple reason
The Earth was younger, larger and flatter in the Third Age. Simple. Since then the world has been said to have shrunk, right?


(This post was edited by Rostron2 on Dec 30 2012, 8:30pm)


Altaira
Superuser


Dec 30 2012, 8:42pm


Views: 1733
Ditto. Nice catch. //
Smile

Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.


"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase




imin
Valinor


Dec 30 2012, 8:45pm


Views: 1743
That's a great find
Makes me think though, how tall was The Lonely Mountain and also the Misty Mountains?

I like to imagine they are at a height of around the Alps or maybe bigger?


burrahobbit
Rohan


Dec 30 2012, 8:49pm


Views: 1755
Great find
I do think it's important that this view by Bilbo is on the journey home, when Bilbo departs from Wilderland. Tolkien saves the first view of the Lonely Mountain for after the Barrel Escape to add drama and impact when the company first arrive at the ominous location of their quest.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Dec 30 2012, 9:12pm


Views: 1733
Which, when it was just two movies
would have been the end. Makes sense. They just moved seeing the Lonely Mountain from after the barrel sequence to the Carrock.


Plurmo
Rohan

Dec 30 2012, 10:34pm


Views: 1657
The looming Lonely Mountain
Literally looming, that is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/...refraction_phenomena


Arannir
Valinor

Dec 30 2012, 11:27pm


Views: 1614
Thanks for that,...
In Reply To

In the book the Lonely Mountain can be seen from the Misty Mountains:

"At last they came up the long road, and reached the very pass where the goblins had captured them before. But they came to that high point at morning, and looking backward they saw a white sun shining over the out-stretched lands. There behind lay Mirkwood, blue in the distance, and darkly green at the nearer edge even in the spring. There far away was the Lonely Mountain on the edge of eyesight. On its highest peak snow yet unmelted was gleaming pale. "So comes snow after fire, and even dragons have their ending!" said Bilbo, and he turned his back on his adventure."



And yes, Tolkien did that stretching or shrinking of geography all the time as well. In LotR there are several occasions that do not make sense.


painjoiker
Grey Havens


Dec 31 2012, 12:31am


Views: 1594
And it would have been if the film ended at that point as well!
In Reply To
In the book, Bilbo's first sight of the Lonely Mountain is after he escaped with the Dwarves on the barrels, and is approaching Long Lake.
Vocalist in the semi-progressive metal band Arctic Eclipse


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Dec 31 2012, 1:07am


Views: 1651
I "found" a thorough (but not exhaustive) recent discussion of this question.
Here, on the Mythopoeic Society mail list. See also the responses, particularly those by Troels Forchhammer.

Short version: The distances at which Tolkien describes the most-distant mountains being visible are at the extreme edge of possibility, and that only if the atmospheric phenomenon called "looming" is present (as Plurmo has noted). Tolkien's presentation of such images is believable: they are barely visible smudges on the horizon. Jackson, if the distances in his films are the same as in the books, does not. His Lonely Mountain looks like a peak less than half as far from the Carrock as Tolkien would have it. (Even granted that it's taller than Tolkien's mountain.) So it appears that in The Hobbit movie, as in The Lord of the Rings movies before, the world is smaller than it is in Tolkien.
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Ardamírë
Valinor


Dec 31 2012, 1:30am


Views: 1041
And I expect that is where it was originally
But when the third film came about, they didn't want to lose their ending. Unfortunately, I do think it would have worked better to see it from the river on the barrel with Bilbo.
Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!


Eruonen
Half-elven


Dec 31 2012, 4:55pm


Views: 980
Yes, an alteranate view from the Carrock would be the looming, dark and
mysterious Mirkwood in the distance.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Dec 31 2012, 5:24pm


Views: 965
I do think that would have been a better option.//
 
There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).


Retro315
Rivendell

Dec 31 2012, 10:07pm


Views: 953
Watching the signs ...
Something else to note; if The Lonely Mountain can be seen from the high pass in the Misty Mountains, it can surely be seen from Mount Gundabad as well.


DanielLB
Immortal


Dec 31 2012, 10:34pm


Views: 946
What about Dol Guldur? /
 

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Retro315
Rivendell

Dec 31 2012, 10:39pm


Views: 942
Not sure
Not sure about Dol Guldur. It's nearly double the distance from Erebor as the northern peaks of the Misty Mountains, as well as being far lower in altitude above sea level, closer to the same starting point as Erebor itself, with all the vastness if Mirkwood between them.

While I surmise a 'decent chance' of seeing the location of Gundabad, and Azog looking out over the vastness of Wilderland, we'll just have to assume The Necromancer hears his news from spies, crows, Palantir-visions. Plus that's Gandalf's whole purpose - preventing him from taking advantage of the dragon-fall.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Jan 1 2013, 1:26am


Views: 931
Don't get me wrong, i love the vistas too.
Some of them are among my favorite shots in the films (the last shot of FotR, the last shot of TTT, the showdown at the Black Gate, Faramir and Frodo looking over Ithilien to Minas Tirith). And i really loved catching sight of The Lonely Mountain and the end of AUJ. But i also know to take some of them with a grain of salt, as they might be almost twice as far away as they appear.


LordMaximus
Rivendell


Jan 2 2013, 5:57pm


Views: 910
Is middle earth round or flat? //
 


Eruonen
Half-elven


Jan 2 2013, 7:52pm


Views: 928
At this time, after the breaking it is round.
"During the downfall of Númenor, Arda was made round."

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Arda


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jan 2 2013, 8:00pm)


arithmancer
Grey Havens

Feb 11 2013, 3:54pm


Views: 909
Funny
My eight year old son finished reading "The Hobbit" last night. He has been reading a few pages each night before bedtime ever since the second time he saw the movie (his request, both re-watchign the movie, and starting the book). So, what he did want to discuss when he had finished? Why, the map of Middle Earth in the back of his book, and how it is that the Dwarves could see the Lonely Mountain at the end of AUJ. Laugh

He's been hiking, so I was able to remind him he has had similar experiences e. g. seeing Boston from a summit in New Hampshire's mountains.