The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room: A Middle English Vocabulary Challenge -- Nowel Edition

The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
A Middle English Vocabulary Challenge -- Nowel Edition

SirDennisC
Half-elven

Dec 22 2012, 6:09am

Views: 3179

A Middle English Vocabulary Challenge -- Nowel Edition

Apparently the world did not end today, so... Welcome to a special Nowel (Christmas) edition of "A Middle English Vocabulary Challenge!"

As many here know, a significant portion of Tolkien's labours in Middle English were based on the poem Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, itself a tale spread across two consecutive "holiday" seasons -- hence the timing of this edition. According to this article, for some the poem has an apocalyptic interpretation as well. How convenient!

As in past instalments, our word game is based on a list of ten words drawn from two of J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle English glossaries:

A) A Middle English Vocabulary, by J.R.R. Tolkien, as published in Sisam, Kenneth, ed. Fourteenth Century Verse & Prose, London: Oxford University Press, 1955; and

B) Tolkien & Gordon ed. Sir Gawain & The Green Knight, London: Oxford University Press, 1963.

The Rules:

This is a game of guessing, reasoned or otherwise. We ask those who have access to the glossaries to please wait until after posting to look up the words! As always, no answers in subject lines please.

The Challenge:

For each of the following words, please state its definition and/or a contemporary equivalent word as you deem appropriate.

1. daunsyng
2. worşyly
3. schulderes
4. bryȝt
5. Crystemas
6. twelmonyth
7. doȝtyr
8. şorghout
9. vnryghtwisely
10. wundred

You may have noticed some odd characters in this special edition. As not to make it too easy, let's just say one can usually be read as "gh," the other as "th."

As well, it may pay to hearken to NZ Strider via NEB: "Try reading Middle English aloud while looking at the text. A few words that your eye misses your ear will catch."

(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Dec 22 2012, 6:14am)

DanielLB
Immortal

Dec 22 2012, 8:01am

Views: 2673

I'll give it a go ...

I normally look at other people's answers. But hey, let's embarrass myself .... here goes....

1) Dancing
2) Not a clue.
3) Shoulders (but that's not Christmassy. Perhaps Soldiers?)
4) Bright?
5) Christmas ...but that seems to obvious? Are you tricking us SirD?
6) Twelfth month
7) Daughter?
8) Nope. I don't know.
9) Spent wisely (total guess)
10) Wondered

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geordie
Tol Eressea

Dec 22 2012, 9:27am

Views: 2680

Tricky..

let's have a go -

1. daunsyng - dancing
2. worşyly - worthly
3. schulderes - shoulders
4. bryȝt - bright
5. Crystemas - Christmas
6. twelmonyth - twelvemonth, that is, a year.
7. doȝtyr - daughter
8. şorghout - throughout?
9. vnryghtwisely -unrightwisely - foolishly?

10. wundred - might be wondered, but I don't think so. I recall Tolkien wrote a poem called 'The Hoard'. printed in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, in 1962. There are several earlier versions of this poem, the earliest of which was published in _The Gryphon_, at Leeds university, some time in the 1920s. This version was called 'Iumonna golde galdre bewunden', which means 'The gold of ancient Men wound round by spells'. So I think 'wundred' might have something to do with 'winding'. Am I right/

Merrie Nowell.

Smile

Ethel Duath
Half-elven

Dec 22 2012, 7:45pm

Views: 2644

Aren't the nowels

a, e, i, o, u, and sometimes why? Wink

Anyway, here goes!

1. dancing
2. worthily
3. shoulders
4. bright
5. Yes.
6. twelve-month (year)
7. daughter
8. throughout
9. This looks like "unrightwisely" but I'm not sure if it would mean "not wisely" or instead something like "rightwise" only the reverse (maybe "[doing/obtaining something that you do] not have a right to?")
10. wondered

Ardamírë
Valinor

Dec 22 2012, 7:53pm

Views: 2628

Gawd, not this again

1. drowsy - yeah, not even close.
2. worthily - I only know "thorn" from the Shibboleth of Feanor, so this better be right!
3. shoulders
4. bright
5. Christmas
6. twelfth month?
7. daughter
8. throughout
9. bright wisely - err... Crazy

10. wondered

Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!

Morthoron
Gondor

Dec 23 2012, 1:05am

Views: 2651

Tough one this time!

1. daunsyng = dancing

2. worşyly = Worthily

3. schulderes = shoulders

4. bryȝt = bright

5. Crystemas = Christmas

6. twelmonyth = a year

7. doȝtyr = daughter

8. şorghout =throughout

9. vnryghtwisely = unrighteously? (I could find no text to support this)

10. wundred = one hundred? (the texts, such as in Ecclesiastes speaks of multitudes, so I'm guessing a number)

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.

dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator

Dec 23 2012, 5:36am

Views: 2639

A Nowel present - a quiz!

Okay, I'm game for this! Let's take a look:

1. daunsyng : dancing
2. worşyly : worthily, of worth
3. schulderes : sounds like "shoulders", but could it really mean "shudders"?
4. bry[gh]t : bright - back in the day when "gh" was actually pronounced.
5. Crystemas : Christ-mas (the religious mass for the Christ birth)
6. twelmonyth : a year
7. do[gh]tyr : daughter
8. şorghout : throughout
9. vnryghtwisely ; unwisely, done in a manner not right or correct
10. wundred : wondered

(I've had to alter the spelling of a couple of words, as the "yogh" is not printing out correctly when I review this.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal

Dec 23 2012, 6:25am

Views: 2674

I'll give it a go.

(I once read Chaucer's "Treatise on the Astrolabe" with the original spelling, but I was pretty motivated get the information from it.)

1. daunsyng--dancing
2. worşyly--worthily
3. schulderes--shoulders
4. bryȝt--bright
5. Crystemas--Christmas
6. twelmonyth--twelvemonth (a year)
7. doȝtyr--daughter
8. şorghout--throughout
9. vnryghtwisely--unrighteously
10. wundred--wondered

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SirDennisC
Half-elven

Dec 23 2012, 8:40pm

Views: 2643

About answers and bonus words :)

Thank you to our participants so far. You've all done very well! (One of you has achieved a perfect score already!)

I'll post the answers on Crystemas day, in case anyone else wants to have a go at the first list.

In the meantime, for those who have already played, here are some bonus words:

A. aȝayn
B. togeder
C. ientyle
D. fyngres
E. Krystmasse
F. haȝşorne

And a super-ultra-mega bonus: "Şat glemed ful gayly with mony golde frenges," (I just love this line!)

Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal

Dec 23 2012, 9:28pm

Views: 2697

OK, here are my guesses.

A. aȝayn--again
B. togeder--together
C. ientyle--gentle
D. fyngres--fingers
E. Krystmasse--Christmas
F. haȝşorne--hawthorn

"Şat glemed ful gayly with mony golde frenges,"--"That gleamed full gaily with many gold fringes." I don't think it's really fringes, but I can't think of anything else.

dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator

Dec 24 2012, 7:11pm

Views: 2635

Even more?

What fun, thank you!

A. a[gh]ayn : again
B. togeder : together
C. ientyle : at first I read this as "lentyle", and thought it referred to the lintel over a door, but now I see that it starts with an "i", which makes it seem like "gentile", which usually means someone who is not Jewish.
D. fyngres : fingers
E. Krystmasse : another variation of Christ-mas?
F. ha[gh]şorne : hawthorn (tree)

And a super-ultra-mega bonus: "Şat glemed ful gayly with mony golde frenges": that gleamed prettily with many golden fringes! What does this refer to, a fringed cloth cover or article of clothing?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

Lissuin
Valinor

Dec 25 2012, 2:40am

Views: 2592

Are two guesses allowed?

Happy holidays, Sir Dennis!

1. dancing
2. worthy/worthwhile
3. shoulders/soldiers
4. bright
5. Christmas
6. December/one year
7. daughter
8. through out
9. venerate/venerable
10. hundred/wounded

SirDennisC
Half-elven

Dec 25 2012, 3:03am

Views: 2603

Did you see the second list Liss?

It was here, in a reply to Auntie.

A. aȝayn
B. togeder
C. ientyle
D. fyngres
E. Krystmasse
F. haȝşorne

And a super-ultra-mega bonus: "Şat glemed ful gayly with mony golde frenges,"

Have at thee m!

Lissuin
Valinor

Dec 25 2012, 3:03am

Views: 2603

bonus words

again
together
until/eventual
fingers
Christmas
hagthorn/hawthorne

"that gleamed full gaily with many gold fringes"

Lissuin
Valinor

Dec 25 2012, 3:08am

Views: 2599

How do you like my line party costume?

Sorry. Just a bit off topic. I was going for a visual interpretation.

SirDennisC
Half-elven

Dec 25 2012, 3:19am

Views: 2608

Such lines are what makes it an "alliterative poem"

It is astonishing to me the brilliance of the original work. A great debt is owed Tolkien for cleaning it up as it were.

The line, "Şat glemed ful gayly with mony golde frenges," refers to Sir Gawain's horse Gryngolet's saddle. Here is the complete description Sir Gawain's of his horse and tack:

"Bi şat watz Gryngolet grayth, and gurde with a sadel
Şat glemed ful gayly with mony golde frenges,
Ayquere naylet ful nwe, for şat note ryched;
Şe brydel barred aboute, with bryȝt golde bounden;
Şe apparayl of şe payttrure and of şe proude skyrtez,
Şe cropore and şe couertor, acorded wyth şe arsounez;
And al watz rayled on red ryche golde naylez,
Şat al glytered and glent as glem of şe sunne.

source: http://www.luminarium.org/medlit/gawaintx.htm

alot of alliteration

Heart

(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Dec 25 2012, 3:21am)

SirDennisC
Half-elven

Dec 25 2012, 3:23am

Views: 2584

Great answer! ... and ... wow. O.O //

SirDennisC
Half-elven

Dec 25 2012, 5:16pm

Views: 2598

Answers -- don't peek if you still want to play.

Here are the answers from the first batch of words:

1. daunsyng -- dancing
2. worşyly -- worthily
3. schulderes -- shoulders
4. bryȝt -- bright
5. Crystemas -- Christmas
6. twelmonyth -- a year
7. doȝtyr -- daughter
8. şorghout -- throughout
9. vnryghtwisely -- unrighteously
10. wundred -- wondered

Scores (including half marks) out of 10:

Daniel 7 (I wasn't trying to be tricky, rather to include a range of difficulties.)
Geordie 9
Ethel 9.5
Ardamire 7.5
Morthoron 9
Dernwyn 9.5
Auntie 10!
Lissuin 8

Judging be the excellent scores, I think we are getting better at this! Smile

A couple of you had a go at the bonus list, answers follow in a seperate post (in case the rest of you still want to play).

Thank you again to our participants, many blessings be upon you in the New Year.

(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Dec 25 2012, 5:20pm)

SirDennisC
Half-elven

Dec 25 2012, 5:46pm

Views: 2654

Bonus list answers -- don't peek if you still want to play!

Here are the bonus word and phrase answers:

A. aȝayn--again
B. togeder--together
C. ientyle--gentle
D. fyngres--fingers
E. Krystmasse--Christmas
F. haȝşorne--hawthorn

"Şat glemed ful gayly with mony golde frenges,"--"That gleamed full gaily with many gold fringes."

Regarding "ientyle" it does look like jentile or gentile, but in context the meaning is gentle/noble. As such, I suppose it might have been pronounced gen-teel, though the meaning "noble" or "fine" remains. What fascinates me of course is the use of "i" in place of "j" or "g."

Togeder? Why not togeşer? I wonder if it was a transcription error?

Actually across all the words (of both lists) there are interesting little quirks such as swapping the position of "r" and "o" for throughout or dropping the first "e" in wondered. Perhaps this marks the progression of phonetic spelling over the years?

Vnrightwisely was quite a stumper I thought since it somewhat relies on a cultural sensibility that has changed over time.

Scores out of 10 (1 each and 4 for the phrase):

Auntie DB 10! or 20/20
Dernwyn 9.5 or 19/20
Lissuin 9 or 17/20

Note: second score is your combined total for the thread.

Thank you to our 3 players so far Heart

Ardamírë
Valinor

Dec 26 2012, 11:25pm

Views: 2616

Lots of fun, SirDennisC!

Can't wait for the next one. Not that I'm any good at it, but they're certainly fun to do Smile

Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!

acheron
Gondor

Dec 30 2012, 3:49pm

Views: 2578

j wasn't a letter in Middle English

J didn't really come along as a separate letter from I until the 1700s. (Same for U/V.) Even as late as 1755 -- Samuel Johnson's famous dictionary from that date didn't have separate sections for I/J or U/V. By then some words were written with I and others with J (generally I for vowels and J for consonants, basically what evolved when they became separate letters), but Johnson just considered them variants of the same letter.

So you could probably transliterate "ientyle" as "jentyle" if you wanted without being too far off the mark. How it turned into "g", I couldn't tell you though.

For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams

SirDennisC
Half-elven

Dec 31 2012, 10:27pm

Views: 2599

Further on the mysterious "ientyle"

First, thank you for the historical information Acheron...

In a note appearing just before the text proper of Sir Gawain -- least ways in my 1963 edition -- Tolkien has this to say:

"The spelling of the manuscript is reproduced, except for corrections of scribal errors... The long i of the manuscript is printed as j except in Iwis and the pronoun I."

And it is true; consider line 86 (line 85 included for context):

85 "Bot Arthure wolde not ete til al were serued,
He watz so joly of his joyfnes, and sumquat childgered:"

Incidentally this is an Arthur trope -- that he wouldn't eat the Christmas feast until everyone was served, and then only if some adventure presented itself at his halls (in this instance, enter The Green Knight).

It is also true that Tolkien's glossary doesn't have a "J" section, in spite of his swapping "i" for "j" where he deemed it appropriate.

Finally, ientyle appears as gentyle elsewhere in the text and in separate entries in the glossary, though they are the same word. So we might have stumbled here, upon an exception to Tolkien's editing strategy. Or perhaps soft g could sometimes be written as i, i.e. as it sounds? Laugh

Oh, one more thing... from the text above, I just love "sumquat" for "somewhat." Qu standing in for wh appears elsewhere in the poem.

(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Dec 31 2012, 10:30pm)

dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator

Jan 1 2013, 1:34pm

Views: 2652

"childgered"?

Now that is one I can't make out! What does it mean - or imply?

Fascinating how the i's, j's and g's have been swapped around over the centuries! I wonder if Tolkien considered making words consistent, or felt it best to leave them as close to the original state as possible.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

SirDennisC
Half-elven

Jan 1 2013, 8:38pm

Views: 2613

Great question -- now where is Phibbus?

Childgered is a word I might better had left for a future MEVC... but hey, this party is just getting started!

Tolkien's glossary is particularly helpful here in that it has listings for childgered as well as gere(d), childgered being a compound of "child" (OE ċild meaning "child") and "gere" (Old Norse gervi for gear, armour, behaviour, fashion et al.). In short the straightest translation is "child-like" or perhaps "childish."

Now, Tolkien glosses childgered as "boyish, merry" which I believe is in keeping with the light-heartedness of the passage. However, according to the authors of "Judging Camelot: Changing Critical Perspectives in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" the Gawain poet's use of childgered has been a source of debate for some years. The debate, as might be expected, stems from the word's ambiguity. This passage gets to the heart of it I think:

"While critics writing during the 1950s and 1960s weighed the moral gravity of Camelot, a similar preoccupation fails to arise in the 1970s. Patricia Moody ("Childgered Arthur"), for instance, explores the varied meanings of the word childgered, ranging from "boyish, merry" to the notion of "restlessness." Such a term in Gawain, Moddy claims, invites ambiguity, a hallmark of this elusive romance."

... yes, great question dernwyn (I hope I haven't crossposted with anyone in the time it's taken to make this response).

Smile

* From: Lupak, Alan ed. New Directions in Arthurian Studies. Cambridge, DS Brewer: 2002

(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Jan 1 2013, 8:47pm)

Lissuin
Valinor

Jan 1 2013, 8:55pm

Views: 2548

Not likely, SirD.

Quote

(I hope I haven't crossposted with anyone in the time it's taken to make this response).

Look at the childish and merry rush that ensued to post a competing well-researched explanation for "childgered". Shocked

No, no, we are grateful for this. I had been about to ask it myself. Thanks for the interesting and informative thread. How does one say "brain food" in Old English? Smile

SirDennisC
Half-elven

Jan 1 2013, 10:36pm

Views: 639

Often said of Tolkien in the Reading Room -

Another morsel of brain food:

It is said here often of Tolkien, that he is deliberately ambiguous (by Curious, FarFromHome and others). Isn't it interesting that the same is said of Sir Gawain: "... ambiguity [is] a hallmark of this elusive romance."

(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Jan 1 2013, 10:37pm)

SirDennisC
Half-elven

Jan 1 2013, 11:09pm

Views: 620

Speaking of "y"

While looking up words alphabetically in Tolkien's glossaries, I've only just noticed that y appears in the same range as i. That is, it is placed between h and k (there is no j, nod to Acheron) rather than x and z... that is unless the word begins with y.

A bit confusing, that. Crazy

So for example the word chylde "child" would appear alphabetically before the word chose "to choose, select."

Ethel Duath
Half-elven

Jan 2 2013, 12:12am

Views: 641

Well, if "i" and "y" were interchangeable at some point

like Acheron's examples of i/j and u/v that does make sense--except for how it works when it begins a word. Possibly "y" as a consonant was already in use, making it necessary to differentiate it somehow?

I've enjoyed Bill Bryson's "Mother Tongue" book which, as I remember, addresses to some extent how words (not so much letters) have changed in English over the centuries, (although I don't know if his opinions are controversial at all?), and I'm guessing letters changed in much the same way--especially since spelling wasn't all that standardized, I gather, before Samuel Johnson's dictionary?

Lissuin
Valinor

Jan 2 2013, 6:19am

Views: 633

i, y, j, u and v in Dutch and English

This follows 2 threads on the threaded mode with acheron, Ethel Duath and Sir Dennis, so I hope it works here in flat mode for everybody.

This conversation reminded me of Dutch, which I don't know much about except that the use of these letters has changed over time as well. I found this website http://rabbel.nl/crashcourse.html, and the section "Orthographic Anarchy" talks about it. It says that until 1100 Latin had dominated written language in the Netherlands, but then a vernacular Dutch used by educated people gradually replaced it through 1350.

Quote

The characters of the Latin alphabet served as phonetic examples. The medieval Latin alphabet, however, knew but 23 characters: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, V, X, Y and Z. It has to be said, however, that the K, Y and Z weren't used much in Latin. For this reason we don’t see the K, Y and Z characters in early Middle Dutch writing. The same goes for the J and W characters which couldn't be found in the original Latin alphabet. So, the characters J, K, W, Y and Z in early Middle Dutch writing had to be represented by other characters. Differentiation of the U and V –which couldn't’t be found in the Latin alphabet- also took place in a later period of Middle Dutch spelling. All this resulted in a large freedom of spelling. The same word could be written in several spellings.

As the Latin and French of the English church and aristocracy was also replaced by a vernacular form of English while retaining those influences about that same time (if I recall Bryson's book correctly, it's been a while), this would have been a similar process, right?

acheron
Gondor

Jan 2 2013, 5:36pm

Views: 671

I think it's a spelling difference

Indeed spelling was unstandardized at the time, so words could be written many ways.

Here's a quick note I found.

Quote

For most of the Middle English period (c. 1100-1500) there was no national standard written language of the kind we have now, with a single set of grammatical forms and a fixed spelling.

...

Be prepared for spelling-variation even within the same text.

...

y and i represent the same vowel-sounds (not different ones, as in Old English). Y is often used where we would use i: so lyue 'live'.

CuriousG
Half-elven

Jan 2 2013, 6:42pm

Views: 812

Spelling anarchy could be fun

I lyke tu rede books bi Tolckyenne bekawz hie iz a grait awthir. But aye also liik too reed boeks bye uhther grayte awthers.