The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room: Exil Noldor-to Aman or to Tol Eressea?

The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Exil Noldor-to Aman or to Tol Eressea?

Nerven
Rivendell

Dec 10 2012, 4:28pm

Views: 2655

Exil Noldor-to Aman or to Tol Eressea?

I always assumed that after their pardon they could choose where to life, if in Valinor or Tol Eressea, but many people in different communities think that the exil Noldor (Galadriel too??) are restricted to Tol Eressea and could only visit the main land. What do you think about that, that doesn“t sound very forgiving.

elevorn
Lorien

Dec 10 2012, 5:38pm

Views: 1837

Good question

My understanding was that Tol Eressea was the Island left from the land barge and that many elves had indeed settled on it anyway. I'm not sure if the ban prohibited settlement in Valinor once they were allowed to return, however it is my understanding that non-elves, (Bilbo/Frodo) were confined to the Lonely Isle. I could be wrong however.

"clever hobbits to climb so high!"
Check out my writing www.jdstudios.wordpress.com

Elthir
Grey Havens

Dec 11 2012, 4:10pm

Views: 1828

Letters or the Tale

Outside of whether or not such a decision would be truly fair, from an external perspective the 'answer' to this question might depend upon how much weight one gives to a letter, as opposed to the last version of The Silmarillion that Tolkien ever wrote, that concerns this section I mean.

The famed Waldman letter notes of the returning Exiles: 'They were not to dwell permanently in Valinor again, but in the Lonely Isle of Eressea within sight of the Blessed Realm.' JRRT , letter 131 to Milton Waldman

Here Tolkien is [partly] explaining to Waldman about the Silmarillion, but the Silmarillion as it stood rather said:

Quote

"And when they came into the West the Gnomes for the most part rehabited the Lonely Isle, that looks both West and East; and that land became very fair, and so remains. But some returned even to Valinor, as all were free to do who willed; and there the Gnomes were admitted again to the love of Manwe and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest."

The 1977 Silmarillion reads a bit differently, and not just with respect to Gnomes for Noldor. And from The Elessar text:

Quote

"How otherwise can it be for the Eldar, if they cling to Middle-earth?" said Celebrimbor. "Will you then pass over Sea?"

"Nay," she said, "Angrod is gone, and Aegnor is gone, and Felagund is no more. Of Finrod's [Finarfin's] children I am the last. But my heart is still proud. What wrong did the golden house of Finrod [Finarfin] do that I should ask the pardon of the Valar, or be content with an isle in the sea whose native land was Aman the blessed? Here I am mightier."

Depending upon how this is interpreted, one might take this in support of the Waldman letter, although I agree in advance that that would be only one interpretation.

There are plenty of other citations that could be raised here [and that's why external chronology becomes important], but I'm not sure there is anything later which is certainly definitive with respect to whether or not Tolkien had ultimately decided upon the 'Waldman idea' or the idea as expressed earlier [earlier in the external chronology, not earlier in my post] in Quenta Silmarillion.

(This post was edited by Elthir on Dec 11 2012, 4:19pm)

Ardamķrė
Valinor

Dec 11 2012, 7:25pm

Views: 1794

Not a fan of the idea

That they're trapped in Tol Eressea. It just doesn't really make sense to me. What point really is there then in returning if you're not allowed into the Blessed Realm? I much prefer the earlier version where they are pardoned, forgiven, and accepted back into Aman.

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales

Elthir
Grey Havens

Dec 11 2012, 8:18pm

Views: 1822

Visiting Valinor?

I think Tolkien's use of 'permanently' is a bit odd here: if the Exiled Noldor can step foot off of Tol Eressea for 'a given time' -- and we know Elves have a lot of time to live their lives, so what is a 'short visit' to an Elf -- then to me it seems to undercut the idea a bit, the idea that they are still paying, in some measure, for the Rebellion.

Although I guess the very notion of not being able to permanently dwell somewhere that you would rather dwell (if a given Elf or Elves would rather dwell in Valinor) is still a payment of sorts.

Not that Tol Eressea isn't a very nice place to live in any case. I'm sure it is Smile

Unless there is another way to read the Waldman letter with respect to not dwelling 'permanently' in Valinor, I guess.

(This post was edited by Elthir on Dec 11 2012, 8:21pm)

CuriousG
Half-elven

Dec 11 2012, 9:07pm

Views: 1767

Like being stuck looking over the fence at the party

I agree, and oddly enough, I would disagree with Tolkien (in my own stubborn mind) if he said otherwise. It doesn't seem satisfying in any sense for the Noldor to be stuck on Tol Eressea. And odd if the Teleri can leave Middle-earth and go all the way to Valinor, but the Noldor are forced to get off the boat early. It would be a lot more meaningful for the Noldor to go back to Tuna after all they've done, and very humbling for them, I think, which would fulfill Tolkien's sense of the need for their redemption.

I haven't been able to find it, but somewhere I think it says in The Silmarillion that when the Eldar leave Middle-earth, they first come to Tol Eressa, but "in time" can go to Valinor. Tolkien may have different opinions on the matter in different writings, just as his published Galadriel was part of Feanor's rebellion, but his planned revision notes had her leave Valinor before the rebellion so she wasn't tainted by it. In our own minds, we have to settle on one image of her or the other, despite existing evidence for both.

Elthir
Grey Havens

Dec 11 2012, 9:34pm

Views: 1759

edited version

I think you are thinking of the edited version [edited by Christopher Tolkien] of the passage I quoted above about the Gnomes.

Maybe you're thinking of [Tolkien's version in The History of Middle-Earth]:

"And when they came into the West the Gnomes for the most part rehabited the Lonely Isle, that looks both West and East; and that land became very fair, and so remains. But some returned even to Valinor, as all were free to do who willed; and there the Gnomes were admitted again to the love of Manwe and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest."

Or that is, the edited 1977 Silmarillion version:

"And when they came into the West the Elves of Beleriand dwelt upon Tol Eressea, the Lonely Isle, that looks both west and east; whence they might come even to Valinor. They were admitted again to the love of Manwe and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest."

(This post was edited by Elthir on Dec 11 2012, 9:41pm)

Nerven
Rivendell

Dec 11 2012, 9:37pm

Views: 1746

That“s

really interesting. I“m not very fond of the idea that they have to stop on Tol Eressea too. I interpret the Elessar text that she had to ask pardon to enter Valinor otherwise she has to stay in eressea.

Quote

They were admitted again to the love of Manwe and the pardon of the Valar

It would be a limited love if they weren“t allowed to Aman itself.

Quote

Letter 325 1971: The immortals who were permitted to leave ME and seek Aman - the undying lands of Valinor and Eressea, an Island assigned to the eldar - set sail in ships

That is a rather late note and indicates that they are free to chose where they would life, I think.

Quote

"for by the mercy of the Valar the Firstborn could still follow the Straight Road and return, if they would, to their kindred in Eressėa and Valinor beyond the encircling seas."

I choose to ignore what he wrote in the waldmen letter, it makes no sense, several times he implies that they are free to dwell where they want.

Elthir
Grey Havens

Dec 11 2012, 9:50pm

Views: 1764

later citations

Later citations (later than the Waldman letter) might imply all were free to go to Valinor, or could be interpreted that way. I don't recall anything definitive and specific however.

You haven't dated your second citation as well (a given description could be before the letter, for example). And Tolkien is arguably here speaking very generally of the Firstborn in any case; in other words, he might not be considering the Exiles here. If one 'plugs in' the Waldman letter, one might interpret this citation as very general for that reason too...

... and if you toss out the Waldman letter, we hardly need more that Quenta Silmarillion in any case. No? Smile

PhantomS
Rohan

Dec 15 2012, 12:29am

Views: 1718

it shouldn't be illegal.

Galadriel is still 'mighty among the Eldar' and of course was born in Valinor itself, so telling her to sit on the island would be a bit strange, especially since she took extended exile on purpose. The Valar brought the other Noldor home after Beleriand was destroyed, and traditionally the Noldor lived in Valinor and not Eressea, where the Teleri sailed their ships. It makes sense that ships would land there since there is a harbor, but there are also one in Alqualonde on the mainland. The letters and Silmarillion say that the Teleri actually are the majority on Eressea- if they didn't forgive, letting the Noldor live on their island would be strange.

Ironically, Galadriel might like living on Eressea or the coast since that's where her mum is from and she lived there prior to Feanor's rebellion.With her father still ruling the Noldor (We don't know if Fingolfin is still in Mandos). she would get a free pass, certainly.

Finwe
Lorien

Dec 17 2012, 8:53pm

Views: 1763

I've pondered this myself

In fact, I asked a similar question several months back. For me, it opens up a fun, Would You Rather question. If the Noldor were allowed to return only as far as Tol Eressea and not return to Valinor, were the Noldor killed in the First Age better off long term than those, like Galadriel, who survived but can never completely return? I was thinking specifically of Galadriel, since The Sil makes mention of how Finrod now spends his days walking with Finarfin in Tirion, while she would never again be permitted to do so. Not that Tol Eressea is a dump or anything, but it's not home for the Noldor either. Suppose Galadriel finally tired of Tol Eressea and longed to live with her parents and brothers again. Would she be better off committing suicide, serving her time in Mandos, then joining them in Tirion? For these reasons, I like to think that the Exiles do indeed get to return to Tirion

As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Fėanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.

Aule
Registered User

Dec 20 2012, 5:42pm

Views: 1724

Finrod walks with finarfin in eldamar

The noldor are free to go west into amen, not just tol erresea. My proof or evenidence, if nobody else has pointed this pit. But on pg 177, chapter 19 of the silmarillion (beren and luthien), is stated after finrod felagund passes away, that "they buried the body of felagund upon the hill-top of his own isle...but finrod walks with finarfin his father beneath the trees in eldamar."

So this is an account of what happens to an elf of the noldor who was bound by the oath of feanor and this account is not in old notes or unfinished works. This is in the silmarillion. Which although it is a compressed version, it is a cleaner more accurate version compared to the 12 volumes of "the history of middle earth. In which the noldor are called gnomes and the elves of the vanyar are called teleri, while the actual teleri are called by a name that slips my mind.

I think this clearly shows that all elves including the noldor get to verture west and not just tol erresea. If there is any exception to any elves coming to aman, to me it would possibly be feanor himself, but the valar lifted melkors imprisonment, why would they not release feanor from the halls of mandos?

And as others have stated, if the valar only allowed the noldor to dwell in tol erresea, then that would be kind of messed up since, tol erresea is really only populated by the teleri, whom the noldor stole the white ships from when the left valinor. The valar not allowing them in aman, is like them not forgiving them. that I can understand, but not really and even if I can understand, it would seem odd that the valar limit the noldor by punishing the teleri, who never did anything wrong.

And the last thing I will point out is that the quote I mention above says "under the trees of eldamar" so it is possible that the noldor were not permitted into [valinor but had leave to go anywhere else in aman.

I would gladly like to hear input and see what you think. Are their holes in my story? Have I covered all the bases? I hope so, cause I hope the noldor aren't locked out of aman. quote]

In Reply To

(This post was edited by Altaira on Dec 20 2012, 6:40pm)

Ardamķrė
Valinor

Dec 20 2012, 5:49pm

Views: 1693

Interesting point...

So in the published Silmarillion, Finrod is free to return to Aman. Personally, I like the idea better than being bound to Tol Eressea.

But I don't think your argument (using the Silmarillion) is exactly foolproof. I'm not sure if you've read The History of Middle-earth series, but it's laid out pretty clearly that the published Silmarillion is just a compilation of the various works of HoME. So basically Christopher edited it together from whatever he thought was the fitting. I'm not sure of exactly why he chose certain passages over others, but it all comes down to him in the end, not JRR Tolkien.

If you want to take the published Silmarillion as the be all end all, that's completely fine. But there are others, like myself, who don't see it as the perfect authority, and would rather comb though HoME to find out "what really happened."

Oh, and can you edit out the f-word, please?

Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!

Aule
Registered User

Dec 20 2012, 6:11pm

Views: 1690

You're trippin

Well I do think the silmarillion is the final authority. Although it is condensed, it is the HoME, just cleaned up and corrected. How are you gonna trust those books more then the silmarillion when the vanyar are called teleri and the noldor called gnomes and many other things that don't add up anymore. The history of middle earth, although more detailed and fun to read are inaccurate and incorrect. Tolkein makes not of many of these things in his notes. Christopher tolkein did not write the silmarillion, he only edited it. He edited things his father had established as concrete. Like the noldor instead of gnomes. And the vanyer having their proper title along with the teleri. Basically the HoME is like the old testament while the silmarillion is the new testament. And just cause the silmarillion is condensed doesn't make it invalid.

And please tell me why you'd prefer the noldor to be stuck on tol erresea and how their punishment wouldn't be a punishment on the teleri themselves? Who did nothing wrong? Why would the valar and illuvetar place the burden on the teleri who suffered more from the noldor then any others? If you can't answer how the teleri wouldn't be burdened with this and if you can explain how manwe and the valar were able to release melkor of his setence, then why would they never release the noldor of there doom? And no offense, I really don't see you giving me any good answer as to these questions. And if you can't then, I cannot in any way, believe otherwise of the noldor being pardoned. The clearest and most recent up to date evidence is my quote above of finrod walking in eldamar. It is written, more recently then HoME, not really sure how you can over look that or act as if it doesn't count case tolkein son, chose how to edit these stories not actually write them himself. What is in the silmarillion was written by jrr himself.

Aule
Registered User

Dec 20 2012, 6:18pm

Views: 1661

Chill

Um not sure how to edit my old post, but it's not that big of a deal. I doubt there are too many kids on hear reading our opinions. Anybody who is, is probably old enough. And besides that, it's not a big deal. Lol

CuriousG
Half-elven

Dec 20 2012, 6:23pm

Views: 1667

I thought of the same thing after reading Finwe's post...

...that Finrod was reincarnated and reunited with Finarfin. I suppose one could say that he redeemed himself by sacrificing his life to save Beren, and that he's an exception, but I don't think so. If he made it to Tuna, then they all did. Though I think it says somewhere in The Silmarillion that Feanor is stuck in the Halls of Mandos, I just can't remember where.

Welcome to the Reading Room! And, please note that everyone is welcome here, but we treat each other with great respect when we disagree. It would help if you could write with a friendlier tone in your future posts.

Aule
Registered User

Dec 20 2012, 6:33pm

Views: 1663

Tone

Yes it could be because finrod helped beren, but then what is finarfin doing in eldamar? And yes it is stated in silmarillion when talking about the silmarils that none will know what they be made of until the end of time whe. Feanor is free from the halls of mandos. So yes as I've stated, feanor might be the only one not permitted. And I'm sorry about my tone. I will try better but keep in mind, I am not writing to upset anybody and the way my tone is being interpreted doesn't mean the interpretation is accurate.i will try to have a good tone, but if me focusing on my tone takes away from my point or my train of thought, them I'm going to sacrifice tone. Cause no argument I've made, no matter what tone, is not confrontational. This is a discussion that is it. Lol

CuriousG
Half-elven

Dec 20 2012, 6:45pm

Views: 1656

Finarfin

Finarfin is in Valinor because, after Mandos threatened the Noldor with a miserable future in exile while they were in northern Aman, Finarfin led some of them back home, was pardoned by the Valar, and was set as ruler of the non-rebellious Noldor. So he never left, and never died. The only one besides Galadriel among Finwe's children and grandchildren who didn't die, in fact.

Ardamķrė
Valinor

Dec 20 2012, 6:51pm

Views: 1669

Like I said

It's completely fine if you want to take the Silmarillion as the final authority. But for me, it is not. Our very own Voronwe_the_faithful published a book called Arda Reconstructed: the Creation of the Published Silmarillion. It's an excellent read. It goes sentence by sentence, and often word by word, through the Silmarillion and shows where Christopher got that line, sentence, word from. So yes, the published Silmarillion is as much Christopher's work as it is his father's.

You're right that in the beginning of HoME, which was first written beginning in 1916, Tolkien used names differently than he later would, but that's just the nature of writing. Names, concepts, and even whole plots get edited and changed along the way. To utterly disregard these earlier works is a mistake, IMO. One reason is because the majority of the end of the Silmarillion, from the death of Turin to the end of the book, was never fully revised or rewritten. So Christopher had to do something to complete the book satisfactorily. The Tale of the Nauglamir he completely rewrote himself, and the tales of Tuor and Earendil he used the very old Qenta Noldorinwa (which was only partially revised later in the 1930s).

The point is that Christopher picked and chose what he thought was best to put into the book, but not all of it was necessarily his father's final wish, and that is a fact.

ETA - if you'll read my posts above, you'll see that I never said the Noldor should be stuff on Tol Eressea. I've actually argued for the opposite.

Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!

(This post was edited by Ardamķrė on Dec 20 2012, 6:52pm)

Aule
Registered User

Dec 20 2012, 7:19pm

Views: 1679

Beren and luthien only edited by Christopher.

Yea read that wrong, you clearly stated that you'd prefer the noldor to not be locked I to tol erresea. But I don't totally diqualify HoME, I'm just pointing out, that since many things were back then, that aren't now, then you can't just take something said in HoME as full concrete, cause much of that material has been changed. And the chapter of beren and luthien are not the chapters of tuor or earnendil. Beren and luthien isn't the part that Christopher had to rewrite. So the beren a luthien is more jrr's then Christopher's. So what is stated about felagund to me is pretty concrete. It is the latest info on what happens to the noldor, from a story that was only edited my Christopher, not rewritten.

Ardamķrė
Valinor

Dec 20 2012, 8:14pm

Views: 1654

I looked in Voronwe's book

And it appears that the text in question regarding Finrod actually comes from the rewritten poem - The Lay of Leithian. Unless I'm mistaken, this was rewritten sometime around 1965, so I'd say it's a fairly late idea, and one that I actually agree with.

Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!

CuriousG
Half-elven

Dec 20 2012, 8:31pm

Views: 1646

A bigger question--what about the others?

The Silmarillion only mentions Finrod's reincarnation in Valinor. Does anyone who knows the HoME series happen to know if any of the other prominent Noldor are mentioned as being reincarnated there also? Glorfindel wound up back in Middle-earth. Fingon, Fingolfin, Finwe, Turgon: they all seemed to redeem themselves in some way before dying, especially Fingolfin's heroic dual with Morgoth. Are they stuck in Mandos, or frolicking around Tuna?

Ardamķrė
Valinor

Dec 20 2012, 9:15pm

Views: 1666

Reincarnation

In the Glorfindel text in The Peoples of Middle-earth, Tolkien wrote

Quote

When Glorfindel of Gondolin was slain his spirit would according to the laws established by the One be obliged at once to return to the land of the Valar. Then he would go to Mandos and be judged, and would then remain in the 'Halls of Waiting' until Manwė granted him release. ... It was therefore the duty of the Valar, by command of the One, to restore them to incarnate life, if they desired it. But this 'restoration' could be delayed by Manwė, if the fėa while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living.

So basically, their return from the Halls of Mandos to bodily life was conditioned upon what they had done prior, and whether they repented or not. Christopher notes that this text was written in the late months of 1972, so it would be one of the last (if not the last) texts on the subject. But Christopher also notes that his father's memory had begun to get confused, and that not everything in this (and other similar texts) was entirely consistent with previously established ideas. Of course, no one but Tolkien could say whether differences to prior texts was intentional or accidental. With that said, I take this text to be Tolkien's intention. I'm not going to take the time to dig through all of Laws and Customs or similar texts, but I'm fairly certain this idea is consistent with his earlier (though not earliest) ideas.

Once again, ramble, ramble... Hope you got the idea of what I was saying Angelic

Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!

CuriousG
Half-elven

Dec 20 2012, 9:46pm

Views: 1622

That had to be a long line of people waiting to be judged after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad

Manwe must have had his calendar booked for months processing each one.

Thanks for citing that passage!

Do you wonder about Miriel re: "to restore them to incarnate life, if they desired it." She was the only one to die in Valinor (long before Melkor killed Finwe) and had done nothing wrong to repent of. Her comment to Finwe, while fading away in Lorien, was "hold me blameless in this and what is to follow," which made me wonder if she had foresight into all the troubles that her sons and grandsons would cause, and if that grief contributed as much to her death as Feanor did by sucking the life out of her. Do you suppose she never desired to come back to the world out of some motherly guilt? It seems like she would have been given the opportunity to.

Ardamķrė
Valinor

Dec 20 2012, 10:49pm

Views: 1638

Desire

In the case of Mķriel, it's explicitly stated that it was her desire to remain in Mandos. In the earliest version of the story of Finwė and Mķriel, she says to Mandos, "I came hither to escape from the body, and I do not desire ever to return to it." It is stated later that "she yearned for release from the labour of living." Much later, in The Shibboleth of Feanor, Mķriel's refusal to return is even more adamant: "Each time that she was approached she became more fixed in her determination, until at last she would listen no more, saying only: 'I desire peace. Leave me in peace here! I will not return. That is my will.'"

It's also important to note that the case of Mķriel is a strange one because her husband wished to be wed again when she did not return. But if she should then return from the dead, Finwė would have two wives, which was not acceptable to the Elves. So the marriage has to be ended and the dead spouse forced to remain in Mandos forever. Laws and Customs speaks to this and states "the ending of will must proceed from the Dead, for the Living may not for their own purposes compel the Dead to remain thus, nor deny to them re-birth, if they desire it."

Later in Laws and Customs during a council of the Valar, Vairė spoke of Mķriel's fėa saying "it is strong; proud and obdurate. It is of that sort who having said: this I will do, make their words a doom irrevocable unto themselves. She will not return to life..." So even were she given the opportunity, she would not have done it; she did not desire to return. But contrast this with the law put in place by the Valar. Once Finwė was remarried, Mķriel could not return, for "if Mķriel were rehoused, she would be again among the Living, and Finwė would have two spouses alive in Aman. Thus would the Statute be contravened, and my Doom set at naught." So she would never be given the opportunity because of the Doom she chose to remain among the Dead forever.

But after the death of Finwė, it appears he advocated for her release rather than his own (since only one could return). But Vairė thought Mandos would not let Mķriel's Doom be revoked. But he relented "accepting the abnegation of Finwė as her ransom." She then returned to her body and entered the House of Vairė "although in that House none of the Living dwelt nor have others ever entered into it in the body." Thereafter, she used her skills in broidery to weave tapestries recounting the history of the Noldor.

This seems to be the last word on the subject, so I would guess it must be taken as is. It's how I like to take it anyway. Quite a beautiful story, I think.

Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!

Elthir
Grey Havens

Dec 20 2012, 11:04pm

Views: 1324

This statement...

... isn't necessarily at odds with the Waldman letter though, in my opinion anyway, as Tolkien wrote that the Noldor were not to dwell 'permanently' in Valinor...

... although as I said before, it seems a bit odd to me if the Exiles can visit Eldamar or further West in Aman, but not dwell permanently there.

CuriousG
Half-elven

Dec 21 2012, 1:06am

Views: 1330

Beautiful, but sad

Which is a Tolkien trademark. Thanks for all the information! I guess it was my impression that she'd been burned out giving birth to Feanor and would someday recover and come back. I didn't realize she'd refused to.

But wouldn't divorce have simplified these people's lives and after lives!

Ardamķrė
Valinor

Dec 21 2012, 1:19am

Views: 1345

Sad but beautiful

I think this is why I love Tolkien's work so much. It's full of similar stories. Aldarion and Erendis is a similarly poignant one. Probably going to make a point of read that over Christmas break.

You mention divorce, but I don't think that a realistic option. These people live for the entire duration of the world. Can you imagine how many hundreds of husbands or wives they could have had? I think that kind of defeats the purpose of marriage, no?

Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!

Elthir
Grey Havens

Dec 21 2012, 7:02pm

Views: 1398

I would date this revision...

... more vaguely to not before 1955 (rather than 1965), which is quite vague, but I'm pretty sure even Christopher Tolkien only goes that far. The reasoning is that the revised section has Finrod son of Finarfin instead of [Inglor] Felagund son of Finrod, as first published in 1955.

In any case, much later than the Waldman letter is the case of Glorfindel, but Tolkien specifically points out the problem he is faced with there: the ban on the Noldor:

Quote

'Now Glorfindel of Gondolin was one of the exiled Noldor, rebels against the authority of Manwe, and they were all under a ban imposed by him: they could not return in bodily form to the Blessed Realm.'

JRRT, Glorfindel II

This is the ban before the end of the First Age not the later restriction from the Waldman letter. But...

Quote

Manwe, however, was not bound by his own ordinances, and being still the supreme ruler of the Kingdom of Arda could set them aside, when he saw fit.

JRRT, Glorfindel II

So exceptions were possible even at this time, and I think Glorfindel is clearly explained as one, in the fuller essay. One would think Finrod fell under this ban as well, and I'll note here -- considering the special ban on Galadriel at the end of the First Age -- that in the Silmarillion of the early 1950s, Finrod and Galadriel both lead the Exiles over the Grinding Ice. Yet still, in this same general phase, with Finrod's passing Tolkien will describe:

Quote

'But it is said that released soon from Mandos, he went to Valinor and there dwells with Amarie.'

JRRT, Grey Annals c. 1951

I find 'soon' interesting here, as it seems to imply a quick forgiveness and bodily restoration -- another thing too, at this point [external perspective] Elven reincarnation was imagined as accomplished through rebirth as a child.

And since the Waldman letter is 'probably late 1951' there is no way (I'm guessing) to tell if this statement from The Grey Annals is necessarily later than the statement in the Waldman letter.

What we do know however, is that the conception of Felagund being seemingly reincarnated within the Blessed Realm exists within a phase when the Noldor are not later restricted to Tol Eressea -- as Felagund is said to walk there after his death in the same phase as the Gnomes are later allowed in Valinor after the defeat of Morgoth -- that is, in the same phase as the mid to later 1930s ending of Quenta Silmarillion, already posted in this thread.

Beyond late 1951 -- or text written after the infamous letter

So this section of the Lay 'recommenced' must be later than the Waldman letter. Two revisions of note: first Finrod's dying words to Beren, and then the Eldamar reference:

I now must go to my long rest
in Aman, there beyond the shore
of Eldamar for ever more
in memory to dwell' Thus died the king,
as still the elven harpers sing.

Canto IX

From Sirion's Isle they passed away,
but on the hill alone there lay,
a green grave, and a stone was set,
and there there lie the white bones yet
of Finrod fair, Finarfin's son,
unless that land be changed and gone,
or foundered in unfathomed seas,
while Finrod walks beneath the trees
in Eldamar and comes no more
to the grey world of tears and war.

from Canto X

In what period is Finrod imagined to return here? I guess it doesn't matter too much if he is allowed beyond Tol Eressea before or after the end of the First Age. Whether Tolkien was considering his 'new' statement from the letter or not [when he revised this section of the poem], might be raised, although that is only so compelling I guess -- but accepting this reference as certainly post-dating the letter, in my opinion we still have the notion that the Noldor appear to be able to 'dwell' in lands beyond Eressea, just not permanently -- if we imagine the restriction of the letter is still in play, so to speak...

... or with Finrod, we might possibly have another exception like Glorfindel and even the earlier ban. In any case, in the late text Glorfindel did not have to be born again as an Elf child, as by this late date Tolkien had rejected the earlier idea of how Elves were reincarnated.

Ardamķrė
Valinor

Dec 22 2012, 12:24am

Views: 1353

The ban of the Noldor

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they could not return in bodily form to the Blessed Realm

Now this quote is interesting. I personally take it to mean that the Noldor could not return to Aman either by sailing across the sea or by daring the Helcaraxė. That, to me, would indicate that said elf was returning in the body. But upon death, the spirit returned to Mandos when sundered from the body. So the spirit returns to Mandos, awaits judgment, and is eventually "rehoused" in a like body and resumes interaction with the living.

Ok, so that takes care of the Noldor who return during the First Age, but after that, I don't have a clue. Is the ban lifted at the end of the War of Wrath? I can't remember. I know Galadriel seems to have her own private ban, but surely not all of the Noldor returned or died. In fact, Idril set sail into the west with Tuor, though I can't remember if they went beyond Tol Eressėa even during the First Age, so I'm all confused now.

But really, I just don't think this idea of the Noldor doomed to dwell forever upon Tol Eressėa makes any sense. Why would they be forever doomed to a sort of purgatory? I don't think it fits with Tolkien's catholic beliefs (though, admittedly, I don't know much about Catholicism). I don't know, I think I'll have to stick to the Silmarillion as it stood, and as you quoted above:

Quote

And when they came into the West the Gnomes for the most part rehabited the Lonely Isle, that looks both West and East; and that land became very fair, and so remains. But some returned even to Valinor, as all were free to do who willed; and there the Gnomes were admitted again to the love of Manwe and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest.

If Tolkien pictured the rebellion of the Noldor as a sort of Biblical fall, then the return of the Noldor acts as a sort of redemption. To leave them on Tol Eressėa does not leave us the option of a full redemption.

Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!

Nerven
Rivendell

Dec 22 2012, 7:15am

Views: 1312

I

too think that is makes no sense to restric them to Eressea.After all Manwe forgave them and the curse was laid to rest, it is said. To make them stay on Eressea sounds not very forgiving to me. Sure, many Noldor wanted to stay either way on the isle and if they could visit, why not make them stay permanently if they want? I have no idea why Tolkien wrote that in the Waldmen letter, maybe at this point he thought that that would be the best solution, but that doesn“t mean that this was his last idea on the matter.

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The immortals who were permitted to leave ME and seek Aman - the undying lands of Valinor and Eressea, an Island assigned to the eldar - set sail in ships

That he wrote 1971, after the Waldmen letter and it says that the elves could decide where they would life, doesn“t it?

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In the event it proved that it was Galadriel's abnegation of pride and trust in her own powers, and her absolute refusal of any unlawful enhancement of them, that provided the ship to bear her back to her home. (HME 12:320-21, n.15 to p.299)

of Dwarves and Men, 1969

That quote only concerns Galadriel and not all the Noldor, but if a double banned and leader of the rebellion could return to Valinor then the other Noldor could probably also. I think it indicates Valinor as destinatin, cause her home, like it is said there, was never Eressea, but Tirion.

Elthir
Grey Havens

Dec 22 2012, 2:58pm

Views: 1283

Bodily return

Quote

Right, but in this essay I think it also refers to the decision to rehouse Glorfindel and allow him 'back' in bodily form in Aman during the ban, as that is what Manwe will be doing by not minding his own ordinance.

And I don't think the Waldman letter is necessarily dooming the Noldor to dwell forever on Tol Eressea, as in 'never' leave it. Why add the word permanently? But as others have pointed out, allowing one to visit but not dwell permanently has its own affect too -- or might have at least, on a given elf if not all of the Exiles.

And although we are in a very different context here, the Waldman comment arguably echoes a very early scenario found in notes to The Book of Lost Tales:

Quote

Defeat of Melko.
(...)
Elwing and most of the Elves go back to dwell in Tol Eressea. The Gods will not let them dwell in Valinor.

But even here, Christopher Tolkien notes: 'That some did return in the end to Valinor may be concluded from the words of Meril-i-Turinqi (I. 129) that Ingil, who built Kortirion, 'went long ago back to Valinor and is with Manwe.'

Smile

Ardamķrė
Valinor

Dec 22 2012, 3:29pm

Views: 1259

Galadriel's home

I agree that if Galadriel were to return home, it would be to Valinor not Tol Eressea. I just don't think there is enough evidence outside of the Waldman letter to suggest they can't dwell permanently in Valinor. And as I've said, it's just not satisfactory, IMO.

Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!

Ardamķrė
Valinor

Dec 22 2012, 3:35pm

Views: 1265

Glorfindel

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I might be just making things up here Angelic

but since Mandos is a form of purgatory, rehousing Glorfindel after his stay there wouldn't be against the ban would it? He's done his time and apparently repented of any evil deeds, else he wouldn't have been released.

Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!

Elthir
Grey Havens

Dec 22 2012, 3:53pm

Views: 1281

Late quotes

Quote

That he wrote 1971, after the Waldmen letter and it says that the elves could decide where they would life, doesn“t it?

If it does I think it's a very general statement nonetheless, and to be honest I'm not sure what Tolkien means by an Island assigned to the Eldar, despite that I think I know what the word assign means: 'to set apart for a particular purpose'. And perhaps that's all it means -- it's an Isle designated for Elves not Men.

But it doesn't really tell us about the Exiles in particular. Is it meant to include them? Possibly, and one could maybe press the point and say by its general nature it includes the Exiles. Or maybe it can include them because the Exiles were permitted to leave Middle-earth and seek Aman -- because here it sounds like Tol Eressea is part of Aman in any case, and the Noldor were permitted to seek Eressea.

Granted, Tolkien doesn't seem to make that distinction here. Does he need to? Or desire to? Considering the larger context of this section of the letter, what would a digression about possible restrictions for a certan group of 'immortals' add?

Quote

That quote only concerns Galadriel and not all the Noldor, but if a double banned and leader of the rebellion could return to Valinor then the other Noldor could probably also. I think it indicates Valinor as destinatin, cause her home, like it is said there, was never Eressea, but Tirion.

Again you could press the very argument you are making, that her 'home' wasn't Eressea. Or again, I see nothing in the Waldman letter barring Galadriel from returning home -- that is, if she was not an exception, she would only be kept from living permanently in Tirion.

And if anyone was an exception, and to be honored with a return West without restriction, why not Galadriel after her rejection of the One and struggles against Sauron? Makes sense to me. And I agree that there are later quotes which seem to imply that the statement in the Waldman letter was abandoned or forgotten...

... but nothing (so far that I recall) later where Tolkien again appears to consider the particular question of the Exiles -- as he had in the Waldman letter or in Quenta Silmarillion I mean -- compared to comments concerning the general circumstances of Elves passing Over Sea.

Elthir
Grey Havens

Dec 22 2012, 4:09pm

Views: 1256

Goldilocks

Quote

I might be just making things up here (snip of emoticon) but since Mandos is a form of purgatory, rehousing Glorfindel after his stay there wouldn't be against the ban would it? He's done his time and apparently repented of any evil deeds, else he wouldn't have been released.

I think we have two things going on here: if an Elf is judged ready for reincarnation then so be it... but hold on, the Noldor were still under the ban at this point too, so now Tolkien has to explain that Manwe will put aside his own ordinance. Otherwise Glorfindel will have to await reincarnation once the ban is lifted for the Exiles in general, which Tolkien does not appear to consider here.

In other words, why does Manwe have to disregard his own ordinance here if the reincarnation of Glorfindel -- at this point -- does not go against it?

Ardamķrė
Valinor

Dec 22 2012, 4:17pm

Views: 1265

Manwe's ordinances

I have to say, I don't have a clue what he'd be putting aside. Because who's to say when Glorfindel (or any others of the Noldor from the first age) were rehoused. I'm not sure.

Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!

Elthir
Grey Havens

Dec 22 2012, 4:22pm

Views: 1268

Glorfindel II

The Glorfindel II essay has Glorfindel reincarnated before the end of the First Age.

Thus we have Manwe putting aside the 'ban' in the sense that Glorfindel has essentially returned in bodily form [or to physical life] in Aman.

Nerven
Rivendell

Dec 22 2012, 5:13pm

Views: 1270

My

Quote

and to be honest I'm not sure what Tolkien means by an Island assigned to the Eldar,

my first thought was that he is referring to the isle which the Eldar used to come to Aman the first time. First it was part of ME, then Osse I believe used it as sort of a ferry boat for the elves, and therefore assigned to the Eldar.

Quote

Elwing and most of the Elves go back to dwell in Tol Eressea. The Gods will not let them dwell in Valinor.

I never read it before, but even in this early concept they were allowed to return. I don“t understand why Elwing was treated so bad, she really has done nothing wrong and is grand child of Melian who surely lives in Valinor.

Regarding Galadriel, if someone of the Noldor has earned her ticket to Valinor, then it would be poor old Galadriel IMHO. But I anyway think she could return, she was said to be mighty among the Eldar of Aman and obtained for Gimli the right to go to Aman (I can“t imagine her doing that from Tol Eressea) as well and it is said that she recieved the pardon and indeed honour from the Valar. Galadriel surley would not feel very honoured if she would be forced to dwell on Tol Eressea.

(This post was edited by Nerven on Dec 22 2012, 5:21pm)

Elthir
Grey Havens

Dec 22 2012, 5:45pm

Views: 1275

Ingil's return

Quote

I never read it before, but even in this early concept they were allowed to return.

Well, I think that's a bit of a simplification regarding this old note. The note reveals that in the main these Elves were not allowed to return, with the attending detail that 'some' -- or at least Ingil according to what I posted -- returned.

In any case my only point in raising that was that the Waldman idea, very generally speaking as a restriction on certain Elves returning West, arguably had an earlier incarnation in the period of The Book of Lost Tales.

Ardamķrė
Valinor

Dec 22 2012, 7:15pm

Views: 1234

But he's gone through purgatory

in the Halls of Mandos. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but I think the idea is that they're only released from Mandos once they have repented of their deeds. Could not the Noldor repent of their rebellion and be pardoned? I guess in that sense it is the ban that is being put aside. I think we're on the same page, right?

Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!

Ardamķrė
Valinor

Dec 22 2012, 7:18pm

Views: 1256

I don't remember if anyone has brought this up

but this passage is from Unfinished Tales. It's a quotation from Galadriel.

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What wrong did the golden house of Finarfin do that I should ask the pardon of the Valar, or be content with an isle in the sea whose native land was Aman the Blessed?

Seems to support the Waldman letter, though I'm not sure when this was written. Crazy

Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!

(This post was edited by Ardamķrė on Dec 22 2012, 7:18pm)

Nerven
Rivendell

Dec 22 2012, 7:26pm

Views: 1235

I

In Reply To

but this passage is from Unfinished Tales. It's a quotation from Galadriel.

Quote

What wrong did the golden house of Finarfin do that I should ask the pardon of the Valar, or be content with an isle in the sea whose native land was Aman the Blessed?

Seems to support the Waldman letter, though I'm not sure when this was written. Crazy

I read it as if she has to ask for pardon to live in Valinor, if she asks not for pardon, she can only go as far as Eressea. So the way to Eressea is always open to her. But it“s true, you can interpret it differnetly.

What about that:

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From the Grey Havens the Eldar ever an anon set sail (...) '... for by the mercy of the Valar the Firstborn could still follow the Straight Road and return, if they would, to their kindred in Eressea and Valinor beyond the encircling seas.'

The last quote indicates that they could go to Eressea or Valinor. But I have no idea when he wrote that, but it“s from teh Sil.

Ardamķrė
Valinor

Dec 22 2012, 7:31pm

Views: 1227

It's says the Eldar

So that's anyone who wants to go. It could be interpreted as the Noldor can only go as far as Tol Eressea, but any others can go on to Valinor.

Not how I personally like to take it, but it's definitely a valid argument.

Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!

Nerven
Rivendell

Dec 22 2012, 7:40pm

Views: 1255

Yes,

your right. That would be so mean. The other are able to go further, the Noldor have to stop, as if they are second class elves. Unimpressed

I really can“t accept it and I“m on Galadriels side here, what wrong has the golden house of Finarfin done.

But then, aren“t the Eldar not only those who have seen the trees? That would apply only to the Exils.

The term is "return" the other elves wouldn“t return, case they never were there at all.

Quote

So I come to the conclusion that it only refers to the Exils.

(This post was edited by Nerven on Dec 22 2012, 7:47pm)

Ardamķrė
Valinor

Dec 22 2012, 7:45pm

Views: 1214

The Noldor

are under a ban for their rebellion against the Valar and the kin-slaying at Alqualonde. They're not second class, but they definitely fell - hard. The Valar don't have to let them back, but I like to think of them extending grace and pardon to the Noldor.

Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!

Nerven
Rivendell

Dec 22 2012, 7:48pm

Views: 1211

You

are right, sometimes I forget that there were really really bad Noldor, I tend to overlook that and see only the innocent ones of the house of Finarfin or the other Noldor who didn“t slay anyone and took no oath.

Ardamķrė
Valinor

Dec 22 2012, 7:55pm

Views: 1209

In some versions

Galadriel took an active part in the rebellion, so even mighty Galadriel is tainted.

Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!

Elthir
Grey Havens

Dec 22 2012, 8:02pm

Views: 1208

external chronology

Is that quote from Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age?

If so it could date to before the Waldman letter in any case, generally worded or not.

Elthir
Grey Havens

Dec 22 2012, 8:22pm

Views: 1221

How many Sun Years

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(...) Could not the Noldor repent of their rebellion and be pardoned? I guess in that sense it is the ban that is being put aside. I think we're on the same page, right?

I'm not sure. I think so Smile

It seems to me that Tolkien is noting Manwe neglecting the rules of the ban to allow Glorfindel's physical return in Aman -- before the Noldor in general are pardoned after the War of Wrath (except for Galadriel, for example, who remained banned at this point).

So the ban is seemingly still in play even if a given Noldo has repented before its lifting. Or why would Manwe need to neglect his ordinance if the ban was already lifted? Which made me think (unless there is something else that I'm forgetting here) that Tolkien could have run around this by waiting something like around 80 Sun Years for the rehousing of Glorfindel.

I'm referring to the years between the Fall of Gondolin (death of Glorfindel) and the end of the First Age (SY 590 if I remember all the dates correctly), if the ban was lifted around the end of this Age.

Or something!

Nerven
Rivendell

Dec 22 2012, 8:32pm

Views: 547

I

Quote

Galadriel took an active part in the rebellion, so even mighty Galadriel is tainted.

really never got what Galadriel rebellion was. She left Aman. That“s true, but weren“t all free to leave? The Valar said something like, freely you have chosen to come here, freely you can go, but still the ones who didn“t attend the kinslaying were baned. Makes no sense for me.

Galadriel did nothing except leaving Aman. If that is a crime, or reason to be cursed and banned, then Aman would be a jail.

Nerven
Rivendell

Dec 22 2012, 8:41pm

Views: 573

Exil

Quote

Is that quote from Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age?

If so it could date to before the Waldman letter in any case, generally worded or not.

Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age (in existence by 1948): 'From the Grey Havens the Eldar ever an anon set sail (...) '... for by the mercy of the Valar the Firstborn could still follow the Straight Road and return, if they would, to their kindred in Eressea and Valinor beyond the encircling seas.' 1977 Silmarillion

Yes, it“s earlier than the Waldmen letter. Frown

So again, no proof.

My question would be, WHY did he change his mind about that matter. (if that was his last concept regarding the exils, if we leave ut what he earlier wrote)

First he had the opinion that they could not return to Valinor, or only visit, then it seems they could go where they wanted and then suddenly he again doest want them to go to Valinor without restrictions. And after the Waldmen letter he never again was explicit about that.

(This post was edited by Nerven on Dec 22 2012, 8:49pm)

Elthir
Grey Havens

Dec 22 2012, 9:15pm

Views: 594

Good question

I question Tolkien on why he wanted to make Galadriel 'unstained' and remove her from the Rebellion, for example. I think I know at least part of what his answer might be [JRRT liking comarisons to the Virgin Mary, maybe], but thankfully [with respect to my approach as to what constitutes the 'true' internal story], he had already published description concerning her ban.

It's the much better Galadriel in my opinion, the penitent Rebel.

Sorry, I know none of this answers your question Smile

Ardamķrė
Valinor

Dec 23 2012, 2:38am

Views: 586

Yeah, something like that

I'm sure it's less than 100 years. I could get up and get my book, but I'm currently lying on the couch and don't want to get up Shocked

Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!

Nerven
Rivendell

Dec 23 2012, 12:21pm

Views: 972

Tolkien

Quote

Yes, he seems to like Galadriel very much, later in his life, so he doesn“t want her anymore to be on the Valar baddies-list. I nevertheless like her later version too, in that she still would be banned.

Didn“t he write anywhere that he doest want there to be resentment between the Valar and Galadriel?

(This post was edited by Nerven on Dec 23 2012, 12:22pm)