The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit: More like ROTK than FOTR...

The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
More like ROTK than FOTR...

cameragod
Lorien

Nov 30 2012, 6:01am

Views: 2683

More like ROTK than FOTR...

According to a friend who was at the premiere. That surprised me a bit because for no real reason I just thought that AUJ would be more like FOTR.
He said he had just watched the LOTR trilogy the weekend before (geek :) ) and the first Hobbit felt like it was shot in the style of ROTK...in a very good way and even better it just felt right... like he was back in the Middle Earth he loved.
He said the only complaint was now he had seen HFR 3D he never wanted to see a movie any other way.

All artists are prepared to suffer for their work, but why are so few prepared to learn to draw? :BANKSY

"A Cameraman without a camera is just a man." Stephen Press

Joe20
Lorien

Nov 30 2012, 6:04am

Views: 1774

That's surprising.

I definitely would have thought it would be more like FOTR due to its obvious similarities. But i'm not complaining. Loved ROTK

All these positive reviews of 48fps have me seriously considering my decision to see it in 24fps first. Ahhhh!! Don't know what to do!

Eye's on Guard
Lorien

Nov 30 2012, 6:06am

Views: 1704

That's how I'll probably feel...

In Reply To

He said the only complaint was now he had seen HFR 3D he never wanted to see a movie any other way.

...especially since The Hobbit will be my first ever theater experience Smile

Wordofmask
Lorien

Nov 30 2012, 6:20am

Views: 1636

Surprising

I dont know what other ppl think but the most like of mine is TTT. I'm fine with AUJ looks more like ROTK than FOTR.

Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea

Nov 30 2012, 6:21am

Views: 1707

Same boat...

I've been very adamant about seeing it in 24fps 2D first. But the 48fps has been getting so many good reviews from those at the screening. If the consensus continues to be so positive about it, I may reconsider (especially looking at those shots in the latest tv spot - those should look breathtaking in 3D!).

"All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds awake to find that it was vanity; But the dreamers of day are dangerous men. That they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible."
- T.E. Lawrence

jtarkey
Rohan

Nov 30 2012, 6:28am

Views: 1665

Im in the opposite boat...

I regretted buying HFR 3D tickets. It didn't help that everyone I bought tickets for was pissed because they didn't want their first impression to be ruined

hopefully I'll get to shove it in their faces after the movie Cool

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"

jtarkey
Rohan

Nov 30 2012, 6:44am

Views: 1645

And i just have to add...

Sooooo happy that people are saying it feels just like LOTR. So many sequels/prequels that are made many years after the originals get the tone and spirit completley wrong (I'm looking at you George lucas)

I'm officially ready to return to middle earth.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"

N.E. Brigand
Half-elven

Nov 30 2012, 6:54am

Views: 1607

But should "The Hobbit" feel like "The Lord of the Rings"?

The books feel quite different in many ways. For instance, to take a minor point, you indicate you're "ready to return to Middle-earth", but remember that the name "Middle-earth" never appears in The Hobbit. (Neither does the "Shire", by the way.) It has long been clear that the filmmakers intended to strongly play up the connections between Tolkien's two different works, but in doing so, there may be a case to be made that they indeed, as you say of the later Star Wars films, "get the tone and spirit [of the book] completely wrong".

Well, I won't be able to judge for myself for another couple weeks, of course.

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Elutherian
Rohan

Nov 30 2012, 7:25am

Views: 1553

To be fair...

Tolkien himself wanted to revise The Hobbit after he published LOTR so it would fit with the mythology he had created (when he wrote TH it was still in an early phase).

It was never going to be practical to film The Hobbit without making it compatable with LOTR. But that doesn't mean the spirit of the book will be compromised.... it still looks like a light-hearted adventure story, where LOTR was decidedly darker and more serious in tone.

The Grey Pilgrim, they once called me. Three hundred lives of men I walked this earth, and now I have no time...

DanielLB
Immortal

Nov 30 2012, 8:01am

Views: 1468

Could you expand on what he meant by "shot in the style of"?

Does he mean it's visually similar to ROTK, or the structure of both films are similar?

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!

Elthir
Grey Havens

Nov 30 2012, 8:07am

Views: 1474

Yet Tolkien...

... also abandoned this version very early on, seemingly agreeing with the advice of someone still unknown...

Quote

'According to Christopher Tolkien, when his father had reached this point in the book he loaned the material to a friend to get an outside opinion on it. We do not know this person's identity, but apparently her response was something along the lines of 'this is wonderful, but it's not The Hobbit.' She must have been someone whose judgement Tolkien respected, for he abanoned the work and decided to let The Hobbit retain its own autonomy and voice rather than completely incorporate it into The Lord of the Rings as a lesser 'prelude' to the greater work.'

The History of The Hobbit, the 1960 Hobbit, John Rateliff

If you mean the 1960 Hobbit that is

(This post was edited by Elthir on Nov 30 2012, 8:11am)

AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Nov 30 2012, 8:11am

Views: 1501

God, I hope not. The trailers certainly don't suggest as much.

I know some of you will disagree, but I hope Peter hasn't gone over board with the gore and grimness. The film should be similar to fellowship, but with the lighter tone of the first half to the first 2/3rds of that movie. It should certainly not have the tone or feel (let alone the gore) of ROTK. I hope Peter has not decided to ignore the fact that lots of people under 12 will be seeing these films, just because of what they are and what they are based upon. A tone like the first two thirds of Fellowship seems like a happy medium between those who want a graphic battle documentary, and those who expect a reasonably family friendly film.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

Crunchable Birdses
Rohan

Nov 30 2012, 8:57am

Views: 1404

What exactly does that mean?

All the LotR films were shot in the same way.

Could you elaborate?

* crunch *

redgiraffe
Rohan

Nov 30 2012, 9:29am

Views: 1357

Same boat

In Reply To

I'm in the same boat. But I don't really care because I will be seeing it in 48fps the day after I see it in 24fps.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle

redgiraffe
Rohan

Nov 30 2012, 9:34am

Views: 1364

THIS

In Reply To

^^^^^THIS ^^^^THIS ^^^^^THIS 1,000xTHIS^^^^

THAT is exactly what has been my biggest concern for the film. I would say that it mostly has to do with visual/aesthetic continuity (CGI, SFX, Art design).

I'm not expecting the tone to be the same. Honestly, each of the LOTR films had a different tone. But each of them felt like they were a part of the same universe and series, and that's what I want the hobbit to feel like when I see it.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle

redgiraffe
Rohan

Nov 30 2012, 9:56am

Views: 1346

That's a good question

In Reply To

Whether or not it "Should" feel like the same middle-earth is really not something that anyone can answer, in my opinion. One person could say it "should" be directed specific to the individual book, which would mean making it like Tolkien wrote it as if it had no place within the greater universe of Middle-earth at the time. And someone else could argue that it should be made as if it does have the connection to the rest of middle-earth because that's part of tolkien's universe.

IMO, you can't really get a definitive answer.

But you can get a definitive answer as to whether or not you (or anyone) "want" them to feel the same or different.

Personally, I want it to feel like it's part of the larger scope of Middle-earth (even if the appendices weren't included).

But mainly from a movie standpoint, I want it to maintain a similar visual continuity because it's part of PJ's series of adaptation. That's why I didn't like the idea of someone else directing it because I want it to feel like it's part of the same world that PJ presented.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle

jtarkey
Rohan

Nov 30 2012, 10:41am

Views: 1345

I feel (IMO) that it should definetly feel like LOTR

The film makers cannot ignore the previous films they made. They've stated clearly that they shot the films as prequels. At this point, the relationship between The Hobbit and LOTR as Tolkien wrote them is moot. They could not have made a straight forward adaptation of The Hobbit without the general audience saying "Ummm so this is kind of Lord of the Rings but it kind of isn't???" It would have been extremely confusing.

Obviously the tone is going to be lighter, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't feel like LOTR. If PJ wants to make a complete 6 film saga, he needs to stay true to what he already established, something that George Lucas did not do.

Therefor, if he stayed totally true to the book, and ignored HIS films, he would make the same mistake as George (who, lets face it, seemed to pretty much ignore everything that made his first trilogy a success)

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"

totoro
Lorien

Nov 30 2012, 10:43am

Views: 1285

I would have been happy with GDT...

... taking TH in a new direction. I am also quite happy to have PJ take the film in the same direction as LotR.
Don't worry. In 15 years, they will all be remade. Wink

The Preciousss
Bree

Nov 30 2012, 11:34am

Views: 1245

I don't think so

In Reply To

... taking TH in a new direction. I am also quite happy to have PJ take the film in the same direction as LotR.
Don't worry. In 15 years, they will all be remade. Wink

Maybe we will one day get an ultimate edition with all deleted scenes added to the extended editions, but I don't think that we will see another adaption in the next 30-50 years (if humanity makes it that far;))

Elenorflower
Gondor

Nov 30 2012, 11:57am

Views: 1242

thats very encouraging news,

ROTK is my favourite film ever. Stunningly beautiful and moving beyond anything I have ever seen, just glad to go back. Like an old friend returned after many years.

redgiraffe
Rohan

Nov 30 2012, 12:34pm

Views: 1195

Me too

In Reply To

... taking TH in a new direction. I am also quite happy to have PJ take the film in the same direction as LotR.
Don't worry. In 15 years, they will all be remade. Wink

It's just that I would have rather seen him have his own take on his own unique version of Middle Earth rather than have his take on Middle Earth that is based upon PJ's adaptation.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle

ForestPark
Rivendell

Nov 30 2012, 1:02pm

Views: 1158

Me too 2

2030 LOTR Justin Beiber's come back in a breakthrough dramatic role as Aragorn and Sir Adam Sandler as Gandalf. Now of course with advances in genetics we might have real hobbits and such.

Lindele
Gondor

Nov 30 2012, 3:03pm

Views: 1087

I find this strange

because the entire LOTR trilogy was all shot at once, in the same style.

Arthael
Lorien

Nov 30 2012, 3:12pm

Views: 1066

Color Grading

Is what I assume they're talking about. Fellowship was pretty heavily graded compared to other 2001 era films (the only other comparisons I think would be O'Brother Where Art Tho and The matrix) but the sequels took it further every time. You'll notice most of TT is cold and blue, and most of Rotk (Besides Frodo & Sam's journy post-crossroads) has a regal, golden tinge to it.

I'm assuming that's what the reviewer is talking about, the heavily graded images that "feel" like Middle Earth because they look different from other movies.

If we want to get technical, RotK also featured a lot of extreme closeups, right in Sam and Frodo's face (FotR is mostly "medium" closeups) and featured more wonky camera work: scenes shot with crooked horizons (FotR does this some, especially with the Nazgul scenes) and elaborate camera movements during shots (whereas FotR features more static shots).

I was also assuming AUJ would feel more like FotR, but just because Peter has 11 more years of experience under his belt, we're probably going to see more complicated camera movements and surreal moments (I'm thinking of the shot of Gandalf in the tree with the camera circling him, a la Transformers). So I guess that makes sense.

"There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go."

Arthael
Lorien

Nov 30 2012, 3:43pm

Views: 1054

An explanation for difference in style

It's easy to forget that these movies were not, in fact, all shot at once.

They did multiple weeks of pick-up shooting every year, once Pete was in the editing room and realized that they needed another scene, or a better take, or more shots of something. They talk about it in the appendices. One example that comes to my head is, in the original shoot in 1999-2000, when Frodo tells Same to "go home" he's almost shouting and visibly psychotic. When they went to edit in early 2003, Pete realized this just didn't feel right, and they reshot the scene with a colder, calmer, Frodo.

I only ever noticed the difference in style this past year, when me and my buddies watched the Tolkien Twelve. Seeing all the movies back to back, you can definitely see the style of camerawork change. Not to mention the color shifts from green-gold throughout the trilogy.

On a related note, after it being pointed out on these forums, I now notice the green tint to the FotR EE Bluray. And now I can't STOP seeing it Pirate

hahaha but even if you watch the dvd's there is a slight green, gritty tent to the movie (in some scenes more than others) as opposed to a regular, natural white balance. (Again, if you don't believe me, watch the appendices, there's footage of the colorists doing their work. it's really cool stuff if you're into photography/cinematography!)

"There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go."

painjoiker
Grey Havens

Nov 30 2012, 3:51pm

Views: 348

Yes it was,

But somehow PJ managed to cut RotK making it seem like someone else shot it... I know it doesn't really make sense, but it feels like someone else behind the camera... Frown

Vocalist in the semi-progressive metal band Arctic Eclipse

Lindele
Gondor

Nov 30 2012, 3:54pm

Views: 356

I'm not understanding

what you are getting at. I've seen the appendices more times than I can count. I know they did pick up shoots, but what does that have to do with the style the film was shot in? The pickup shoots end up being no more than a few shots in the final film...not the whole film.
All of the films were shot at once...the vast majority. I absolutely agree that the color tones change throughout the trilogy depending on where they are and the relevance to what is happing in the story....Of course the imagery is different in each film. But all three films had the same cinematographer and they were shot out of sequence all at once.
And I am in fact into cinematography/photography...it's what I do for a living.

Arthael
Lorien

Nov 30 2012, 4:27pm

Views: 327

I probably noticed it

Because I watched them all back to back. I can definitely notice a distinct difference between the camerawork in FotR and RotK, specifically Frodo and Sam's journey in the first 2/3rds of the film (moreso than the Aragorn/Gondor storyline).

Lots more complex camera moves (like the crane shot of them sleeping on the edge of the Endless Stair) and extreme closeups ("share the load....THE LOAD") as opposed to the medium and medium closeups in FotR.

Another thing (not really to do with camerawork) that differentiates FotR and RotK is an increase in the amounts of sets and green screen work. Compare Amon Hen (mostly on location) with Pelenor Fields (location, but more location+green screen, specifically after Aragorn arrives). And as we know from logistics, I think roughly 2/3rd of the Hobbit was shot on indoor sets, and you can certainly tell from the footage. And I may roll my eyes and wish for the gritty days of the natural light awesomeness of FotR, I love the more-CGI world of RotK and I actually really like the look of The Hobbit from what we've seen thus far. I do think that it has more in common with the epicness of RotK than the simplicity of FotR in terms of visuals.

Either way, I'm excited. I love the cinematography of the trilogy, and it had a huge impact on my photography style, especially when I first started shooting a couple years ago. That's awesome that you do it for a living! Right now I'm a hobbyist who occasionally gets paid ;)

"There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go."

(This post was edited by Arthael on Nov 30 2012, 4:35pm)

redgiraffe
Rohan

Nov 30 2012, 4:49pm

Views: 315

I understand where you are coming from

In Reply To

We can actually use the star wars movies as an example. With the original trilogy they all "felt" and looked the same. Although, there are a few noticeable differences because of I guess what looks like upgrades in camera.

Which is interesting because all 3 were filmed with a few years in between and with 3 different directors. Also, the prequels all have the same sort of look to them as well.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle

burgahobbit
Rohan

Nov 30 2012, 4:49pm

Views: 334

Oh my!

Your first theater experience? The Hobbit? HFR 3D? You are going to BE COMPLETELY BLOWN AWAY!!!!

Enjoy the experience! Laugh

(This post was edited by burgahobbit on Nov 30 2012, 4:51pm)

redgiraffe
Rohan

Nov 30 2012, 4:53pm

Views: 306

specifically indoor sets?

Just out of curiosity are you certain it's 2/3 indoor sets and not just all sets, which would include Dale, an outdoor set?

Hopefully it's 2/3 all sets. Honestly, I think the sets filmed outdoor (Minas Tirith) look much more realistic than ones filmed indoor (Parts of Rivendell) even if the outdoor ones use green screen.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle

Misty Mountain Hop
Rivendell

Nov 30 2012, 5:05pm

Views: 305

hfr

I'm feeling the same way a little bit. I invited my friends to the midnight showing in HFR and I hope they will like it and not have their experience be somewhat ruined. I don't think it will though.

Arthael
Lorien

Nov 30 2012, 5:09pm

Views: 298

Not completely certain

I think they talk about it in one of the early V-logs, like "we've completed our 200-something days of shooting, now it's time for 100 days of location shooting" or something like that.

And I agree 100%, the Helm's Deep, Minas Tirith, Osgiliath and specifically Edoras sets were beautiful and some of the best parts of the movies. From the set photos of bard on the rooftops with a huge green behind him, we know at least a some of Dale appears to be an indoor set. Now i'm not sure that it wasn't just an outdoor green screen, or perhaps that's what they'll be using for the destruction sequence, which would be fair since it's a lot of stunt work. But yeah I really really hope we get natural looking sets whenever we can. From the trailers, the only real outdoor sets in AUJ will prob be The Shire :/ but then again, I assume half the movie takes place underground.

In light of the whole trilogy, the only outdoor sets may be Dale, the barrel escape, and (hopefully) some of the plain where the Bo5A takes place. And of course the gorgeous helicopter shots we've seen in the trailer :) but just about everything else takes place inside or underground, and I think Mirkwood is a set.

"There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go."

Kassandros
Rohan

Nov 30 2012, 5:13pm

Views: 327

Should I panic?

I preferred TTT and FOTR to ROTK, so I guess I should throw a fit about how worried I am that The Hobbit won't be any good, right? Sly

Alas, I love ROTK too, and am content to enjoy AUJ on its own terms when it comes out.

I'm guessing some of the Dwarven battles in the flashbacks might be what makes it feel ike RotK? Just a guess.

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...

Eye's on Guard
Lorien

Nov 30 2012, 5:17pm

Views: 298

Thank you burgahobbit! I can't wait! //

Arthael
Lorien

Nov 30 2012, 5:25pm

Views: 279

Funnily Enough

The 1.5 second shot of charging dwarves made me think of the Prologue more than anything else, the swooping shot of orcs as they charge the Elves. Even though it's a crappy handheld recording of a tv, that might be the single most exciting image I've seen for this movie. I'm so ready for this!!

"There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go."

totoro
Lorien

Dec 1 2012, 2:18am

Views: 224

It's OK

Not everyone can have the correct opinion. Cool

In Reply To

I preferred TTT and FOTR to ROTK, so I guess I should throw a fit about how worried I am that The Hobbit won't be any good, right? Sly

Alas, I love ROTK too, and am content to enjoy AUJ on its own terms when it comes out.

I'm guessing some of the Dwarven battles in the flashbacks might be what makes it feel ike RotK? Just a guess.

redgiraffe
Rohan

Dec 1 2012, 6:12pm

Views: 196

Ahhh yes I see

Thanks that's kind of giving me a better idea.

And I think there were some shots in that leaked blog that showed the daytime of laketown to be filmed outside in the sun which is good in my opinion. And Dale is built outside as well which is good.

And as you said, I hope the BO5A is mostly filmed outside.

It's not that I think indoor sets are always bad. It's just that I think if all the sets are indoors it can kind of add a little too much artificiality to the overall look. But it's best when you have a mixture of indoor, outdoor, and location shooting.

And as you said, minas tirith osgiliath and helms deep looked great even if though they were sets. And of course, hobbiton and edoras were wonderfull.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle

(This post was edited by redgiraffe on Dec 1 2012, 6:14pm)