The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit: Production video #9: what bird is that?

The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Production video #9: what bird is that?

News from Bree
spymaster@theonering.net

Nov 25 2012, 4:50am

Views: 3116

Production video #9: what bird is that?

If those first three seconds of the ninth production video for The Hobbit don't grab your attention, nothing will.

It's illustrative of Jackson's ability to convey a great deal in just a few short moments.

Although it's not our first glimpse of Radagast, nor of Radagast communing with an animal, it is our first video glimpse of Radagast communicating with a bird (click for HD screencap).

This may seem unimportant, but consider that in Unfinished Tales (UT) Christopher Tolkien remarks that Radagast's Quenya name, Aiwendil, 'must mean "lover of birds".' Now, as much as the film-makers are legally unable to use the material from UT and the like, they surely must have read it at some point.

And consider the deep affection and respect for the creature that the actor, Sylvester McCoy, as he says "Show me." conveys with his face and his tone of voice in just those few brief moments.

For those who are concerned about thematic fidelity to Tolkien (all of us, surely!), this is a reassuring.

(source: http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/radagast-the-brown)

For, in Middle-earth, the little things are just as important as the big things. Indeed, it's the attention to (and, paradoxically, the simultaneous haziness of) the tiny details that gives Tolkien's Middle-earth its lived-in feel.

Now, at first I assumed that the bird that Radagast is communicating with here is a hummingbird.

It hovers. Hummingbirds hover. Ergo, it must be a hummingbird. Right?

Not so. A birder friend who knows about hummingbirds tells me it is most definitely not a hummingbird.

So, what is it? (to steal a famous Red Dwarf quote)

Well, apparently hummingbirds aren't the only avian species that can hover, as it turns out. They are, of course, the most well-known of hovering birds, due to their vivid colouration.

In fact, it turns out that some species of thrush can also hover. You can Google this for yourselves.

But maybe it's too big to be a thrush? Tolkien tells us that the thrush of Middle-earth were particularly large.

There on the grey stone in the grass was an enormous thrush, nearly coal black, its pale yellow breast freckled with dark spots. Crack! It had caught a snail and was knocking it on the stone. Crack! Crack! The Hobbit, Chapter 11. On The Doorstep.

But what about that colouration? I dunno, what about this?

So, I'm thinking it's, perhaps, a thrush.

That being said, I'm not a birder. Maybe it's a starling. Maybe it's something else.

And even if it is a thrush, it's extremely unlikely that it's going to be the thrush that plays such a key role in the Company's quest.

Still, I feel it's an indication that we will see the thrush guiding Bilbo and Bard in one of the later films.

And for readers who enjoy the little beauties of Tolkien's The Hobbit, and wish to see that recreated in film, that's a comforting thing.

The views in this post are the author's own, and do not necessarily represent those of TheOneRing.net or its staff.

Fardragon
Rohan

Nov 25 2012, 11:10am

Views: 2315

Well, it's certainly not a humming bird.

It does look like it could be a member of the thrush family, but not one I'm familiar with. Maybe a NZ variety, or one unique to Middle Earth.

Could we see the same or similar bird speaking to Bard? It wouldn't surprise me.

Edit: bit of research, it looks very similar to an american robin (robins are thrush-family).

A Far Dragon is the best kind...

(This post was edited by Fardragon on Nov 25 2012, 11:15am)

DanielLB
Immortal

Nov 25 2012, 11:17am

Views: 2288

A larger version of a Crossbill Finch?

They come in a wide variety of colours.

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!

(This post was edited by DanielLB on Nov 25 2012, 11:19am)

Fardragon
Rohan

Nov 25 2012, 11:23am

Views: 2275

Beak looks too small for a finch,

and they tend to be more "dapper".

For practical reasons, it's probably a thrush. It's a lot of work to create a CGI model for a realistic bird. I can't see them doing it for more species than they have to.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...

DanielLB
Immortal

Nov 25 2012, 11:27am

Views: 2278

Agreed and it's probably not an identifiable bird anyway.

I was trying to look for bird species that fitted those found in the United Kingdom/Western Europe.

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(This post was edited by DanielLB on Nov 25 2012, 11:28am)

Demosthenes
Sr. Staff

Nov 25 2012, 11:30am

Views: 2289

if all else fails...

it's this:

More seriously, it's a Passerine of some sort. Whether this actually means anything, who knows? Probably not. Humans attribute too much meaning to things that are just random "cuz it was cool".

On the other hand it was:

b) the lead scene for the PD
a) really evocative

So maybe it's a subtle tease for something.

Insert your favourite Xanatos gambit here.

TheOneRing.net Senior Staff
IRC Admin and Hall of Fire moderator

(This post was edited by Demosthenes on Nov 25 2012, 11:33am)

Faenoriel
Tol Eressea

Nov 25 2012, 1:13pm

Views: 2246

Seems very much like a thrush

Given how important a certain thrush is in the story (and their occurences in some mythologies also), I wouldn't be surprised if Radagast had thrush friends also.

Some thruses:

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied

DanielLB
Immortal

Nov 25 2012, 1:18pm

Views: 2250

I'm convinced the bird is an American Robin

I've been looking at pictures of them on google as well, and they also have the red patch under their wings like the bird in the new video blog

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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea

Nov 25 2012, 1:22pm

Views: 2234

Yes, that is quite likely

Of course, it's possible that our feathered friend here is just a fantasy bird that doesn't belong to any known species. (That would be dissapointing, considering how Tolkien almost always used real animals and real plants.) Yet even in such case, they most probably would have drawn inspiration from some real animal, in the spirit of the Oliphanths being inspired by the real Proboscids.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied

dormouse
Half-elven

Nov 25 2012, 1:50pm

Views: 2225

Thanks for posting those pictures

... that's interesting. My first reaction was that it's nothing like a thrush, but now I see those I agree with Daniel that it looks like the first one. It's just nothing like the most common thrush we have in the UK - different colour scheme.

Faenoriel
Tol Eressea

Nov 25 2012, 1:55pm

Views: 2249

Thruses come in many colours

Blackbirds are the most obvious example. But the general shape of the bird is very turdidesque.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied

Aitieuriskon
Lorien

Nov 25 2012, 2:11pm

Views: 2200

Not a robin

The bird in the vlog was too small to be a robin, which generally grow too large to hover (the ones in my yard are big pesky devils that bully the smaller birds). The coloration on robins is also usually less dramatically pronounced than the bird in the vlog or the image above.

I think they just gave a pretty color scheme to a typical songbird design.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951

dormouse
Half-elven

Nov 25 2012, 2:17pm

Views: 2191

Robins are really small here....

...and their red is every bit as red as the bird in the vlog. I thought it was a robin at first, then had a better view and realised it wasn't.

dave_lf
Gondor

Nov 25 2012, 2:19pm

Views: 2204

American Robin

Ah the quirks of international discussion. It's kind of amusing to me to see debate on this subject--any toddler where I live could identify that bird.

It's not behaving like an American Robin, but that's because it's a special, magical (CG) robin.

(This post was edited by dave_lf on Nov 25 2012, 2:20pm)

dormouse
Half-elven

Nov 25 2012, 2:24pm

Views: 2195

I'm no expert on birds...

.... I've simply grown up with the idea that the thrush in the Hobbit - the one that overhears Bilbo and alerts Bard - is a song thrush because those are the ones we see in our gardens knocking snails against stone to break the shells. So reading about the Hobbit thrush as a child, that was the image I had and it stuck.

DwellerInDale
Rohan

Nov 25 2012, 2:24pm

Views: 2215

He looks like a rufous-bellied thrush (photo)

Here's a photo of a typical RBT

Link

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.

chrism628
Bree

Nov 25 2012, 2:53pm

Views: 2174

American Robin Without Question

Check out the bird here and the "calls" sounds it makes. They match whats in the video.

http://www.allaboutbirds.org/...merican_Robin/sounds

Demosthenes
Sr. Staff

Nov 25 2012, 2:57pm

Views: 2136

Do they hover? //

TheOneRing.net Senior Staff
IRC Admin and Hall of Fire moderator

Finrod
Rohan

Nov 25 2012, 3:00pm

Views: 2179

Not an American Robin

In Reply To

I've been looking at pictures of them on google as well, and they also have the red patch under their wings like the bird in the new video blog

Although I fully agree it is a turdid � that is, one of the true thrushes � it isn�t quite big enough to be an actual American Robin (Turdus migratorius), and its profile is more like one of the European thrushes. Notice the tail length in proportion to the body length: it is not the right proportion for an American Robin. That is the most obvious difference, and the most difficult to account for, if one tries to push for this bird being an actual T. migratorius.

An American Robin is a larger/longer bird than this one, and usually chunkier, too. This one looks more like a Song Thrush (Turdus philomelos) in size and shape, albeit not really so much so in coloration. But the tail length is better there.

The warning or alert call it uses as it flies off in that scene is perhaps a bit off from an American Robin�s, too, but still distinctly thrush-like.

It is quite possible that the filmmakers �created� a new thrush, basing its coloration on that of one turdid and its size and shape on that of another�s. I haven�t look through all 65 turdids, but there are plenty that remind you of an American Robin without actually being such.

…all eyes looked upon the ring; for he held it now aloft, and the green jewels gleamed there that the Noldor had devised in Valinor. For this ring was like to twin serpents, whose eyes were emeralds, and their heads met beneath a crown of golden flowers, that the one upheld and the other devoured; that was the badge of Finarﬁn and his house.
The Silmarillion, pp 150-151

while Felagund laughs beneath the trees
in Valinor and comes no more
to this grey world of tears and war.
The Lays of Beleriand, p 311

(This post was edited by Finrod on Nov 25 2012, 3:02pm)

Faenoriel
Tol Eressea

Nov 25 2012, 3:01pm

Views: 2144

THE trush could still be a song trush //

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied

Fardragon
Rohan

Nov 25 2012, 3:02pm

Views: 2158

We have already seen that the Mirkwood Butterflies

are Monarchs - a species not found in Europe.

The issue really is does this species of thrush smash snails on rocks like the European song thrush does?

A Far Dragon is the best kind...

chrism628
Bree

Nov 25 2012, 3:02pm

Views: 2144

They Don't

But this is the hovering cousin Robin of Middle-earth! They should of chose a hummingbird but still very cool!

Faenoriel
Tol Eressea

Nov 25 2012, 3:03pm

Views: 2145

Ah, thank you for that

I've never seen an American Robin in flesh, only European thruses; mostly blackbirds, song thruses and redwings. The bird in the trailer immediately reminded me of a redwing, expect that redwings have red only on their sides, not extending over their belly.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied

Fardragon
Rohan

Nov 25 2012, 3:06pm

Views: 2139

They could use the same CGI model with a different coloured "skin".

A Far Dragon is the best kind...

Finrod
Rohan

Nov 25 2012, 3:06pm

Views: 2134

Not a European Robin

In Reply To

Robins are really small here, and their red is every bit as red as the bird in the vlog. I thought it was a robin at first, then had a better view and realised it wasn't.

The European Robin is not even a thrush, and this is surely a thrush. Also, a European Robin is perhaps a bit too small for this bird.

…all eyes looked upon the ring; for he held it now aloft, and the green jewels gleamed there that the Noldor had devised in Valinor. For this ring was like to twin serpents, whose eyes were emeralds, and their heads met beneath a crown of golden flowers, that the one upheld and the other devoured; that was the badge of Finarﬁn and his house.
The Silmarillion, pp 150-151

while Felagund laughs beneath the trees
in Valinor and comes no more
to this grey world of tears and war.
The Lays of Beleriand, p 311

Demosthenes
Sr. Staff

Nov 25 2012, 3:08pm

Views: 2761

Well...

The whole point of the article was that it /wasn't/ a hummingbird, but could be a thrush.

I still think this could be a pointer for Erebor and that there will be a thrush On The Doorstep.

Regardless we'll know for certain in a couple of weeks, because Elrond will either mention the thrush when he deciphers the map ... or he won't.

TheOneRing.net Senior Staff
IRC Admin and Hall of Fire moderator

Faenoriel
Tol Eressea

Nov 25 2012, 3:09pm

Views: 2768

Hummingbirds are very American

while thrushes are cosmopolitan (and more generic). We of course can always say "Númenorians did it!", but the general audience might be buzzled by a non-Old World animal in a supposedly Medieval fantasy world.

Btw, does anyone still remember the "what animal is accompanying Radagast in the concept art seen in a vlog?" discussion? Many suspected it was a vallaby, and questions arose of whether this would be accpetable or not. Well, the same concept art was seen in high-res in the leaked Hobbit art book scans... and the animal was one his giant rabbits.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied

Faenoriel
Tol Eressea

Nov 25 2012, 3:10pm

Views: 2751

Too small and too delicate. //

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied

Finrod
Rohan

Nov 25 2012, 3:15pm

Views: 2751

Reminds me of a redwing, too

In Reply To

I, also, thought of a (European) redwing, as that has the right size and shape, although not quite the right color breast. But individual turdids have quite a bit of variation in the spottiness. Even an American Robin has a spotty breast as a young bird, which fills out as it matures.

Be warned that like robin, the common names redwing and even blackbird, do mean something else in North America than they do in Europe.

In North America, the most likely thrush you�ll find hovering is Swainson�s Thrush or one of the Bluebirds.

Here is a decent comparative view of a bunch of members of the Turdidae family.

…all eyes looked upon the ring; for he held it now aloft, and the green jewels gleamed there that the Noldor had devised in Valinor. For this ring was like to twin serpents, whose eyes were emeralds, and their heads met beneath a crown of golden flowers, that the one upheld and the other devoured; that was the badge of Finarﬁn and his house.
The Silmarillion, pp 150-151

while Felagund laughs beneath the trees
in Valinor and comes no more
to this grey world of tears and war.
The Lays of Beleriand, p 311

dave_lf
Gondor

Nov 25 2012, 3:15pm

Views: 2752

Art

To be strict about it, it's not any type of bird--it's a CG creation. So you're probably right; it could well be an imaginary amalgamation of various thrushes that looks (to me) very much like an American Robin, aside from being a little smaller than normal and not moving correctly (and I accept your point about the tail length upon careful inspection). I guess if they did it right, everyone will see the type of thrush that's most familiar to him.

DanielLB
Immortal

Nov 25 2012, 3:16pm

Views: 2760

I hope the talking purse hasn't replaced the thrush!

Though it might make sense ... At least everyone can talk to it then ... Unimpressed

"Stand by the grey stone when the purse squeaks, and the setting sun with the last light will shine on Durin's Day will shine upon the key-hole"

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!

(This post was edited by DanielLB on Nov 25 2012, 3:17pm)

Faenoriel
Tol Eressea

Nov 25 2012, 3:21pm

Views: 2746

Damn pioneers and their lack of imagination

while naming the new animals they encountered!

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied

DarkJackal
Rohan

Nov 25 2012, 3:37pm

Views: 2748

Without knowing anything else

I would have said this looks like what I see most days in the backyard, an American robin. The yellow beak and subtle white markings around the eye make that particularly obvious (and the red breast, of course). But I did not know robins were considered thrushes before this discussion, so it makes more sense now.

The Hobbit Photo Gallery

(This post was edited by DarkJackal on Nov 25 2012, 3:37pm)

Finrod
Rohan

Nov 25 2012, 3:42pm

Views: 2750

A Turdid Tale

In Reply To

Thrushes are members of the Turdidae family, one of whose genera is Turdus, which comprises the true thrushes and of which the American Robin is just one example out of 65. Even bluebirds are thrushes (read, from the same family), although of a different genus.

But Turdus migratorius is too big to hover, and his tail is too long to be this bird.

…all eyes looked upon the ring; for he held it now aloft, and the green jewels gleamed there that the Noldor had devised in Valinor. For this ring was like to twin serpents, whose eyes were emeralds, and their heads met beneath a crown of golden flowers, that the one upheld and the other devoured; that was the badge of Finarﬁn and his house.
The Silmarillion, pp 150-151

while Felagund laughs beneath the trees
in Valinor and comes no more
to this grey world of tears and war.
The Lays of Beleriand, p 311

Fardragon
Rohan

Nov 25 2012, 3:43pm

Views: 2738

It gets even more complicated

with European robins, who used to be considered thrushes, until they got thrown out of the family (probably for being drunk and disorderly).

A Far Dragon is the best kind...

Demosthenes
Sr. Staff

Nov 25 2012, 3:50pm

Views: 2733

BAM!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM_dTFMTvzk

TheOneRing.net Senior Staff
IRC Admin and Hall of Fire moderator

dormouse
Half-elven

Nov 25 2012, 4:25pm

Views: 2704

No - purses can't fly....

..... unless this is an exotic species of purse. The New Zealand white-throated (I made that bit up) flying purse, perhaps.....

Faenoriel
Tol Eressea

Nov 25 2012, 5:11pm

Views: 2697

And prone to vigilantism with emo bats

against corrupt sherifs.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied

hamlet
Rivendell

Nov 25 2012, 5:13pm

Views: 2695

Holy Ornithology!

Thanks for the bird info. And I love the fact that "the lover of birds" connection has been made with Radagast. Cool.

Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator

Nov 25 2012, 5:31pm

Views: 2702

Ah yes, that looks more like it.

Similar coloring to the American Robin, but different body type. But in looking at bird sites, I see that there are actually quite a few species of thrush with red breasts from around the world.

All of this makes me hope that the Lonely Mountain thrush is not of this type, as we can see that many people would see the movie and think "robin" instead of "thrush". I know that robins are in the thrush family, but most people think of them as distinct and in their own category.

I know when I read the book, I always pictured the Lonely Mountain bird as something like the Song Thrush, with a streaked breast instead of a red one.

Silverlode

Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator

Nov 25 2012, 5:36pm

Views: 2687

That's a European robin, Dem!

American robins are larger, and too heavy to hover. Smile

Silverlode

DanielLB
Immortal

Nov 25 2012, 5:37pm

Views: 2673

Yes, I too imagined the Thrush as a Song Bird

And Song Birds are commonly known to eat snails, compared to other species of Thrush.

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Finrod
Rohan

Nov 25 2012, 5:46pm

Views: 2684

Song Thrush, not Song Bird

In Reply To

And Song Birds are commonly known to eat snails, compared to other species of Thrush.

Um, don�t you mean Song Thrush, not Song Bird? A songbird is a somewhat generic term. Here�s your thrush:

The Song Thrush (Turdus philomelos) is a thrush that breeds across much of Eurasia. It is also known in English dialects as throstle or mavis. It has brown upperparts and black-spotted cream or buff underparts and has three recognised subspecies. Its distinctive song, which has repeated musical phrases, has frequently been referred to in poetry.

…all eyes looked upon the ring; for he held it now aloft, and the green jewels gleamed there that the Noldor had devised in Valinor. For this ring was like to twin serpents, whose eyes were emeralds, and their heads met beneath a crown of golden flowers, that the one upheld and the other devoured; that was the badge of Finarﬁn and his house.
The Silmarillion, pp 150-151

while Felagund laughs beneath the trees
in Valinor and comes no more
to this grey world of tears and war.
The Lays of Beleriand, p 311

Faenoriel
Tol Eressea

Nov 25 2012, 5:46pm

Views: 2666

Oooh, that could be it! //

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied

DanielLB
Immortal

Nov 25 2012, 5:48pm

Views: 2662

Yes. Thank you for the correction. /

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!

Aragalen the Green
Gondor

Nov 25 2012, 5:54pm

Views: 2671

Sort of hovering (American robin)...

http://fahrmannphoto.photoshelter.com/image/I0000nE5OUGknTkY

Frito groaned. "I wish I had never been born," he said.
"Do not say that, dear Frito," cried Orlon. "It was a happy minute for us all when you were born."

Eleniel
Tol Eressea

Nov 25 2012, 10:46pm

Views: 2650

Quite likely too, since that is how Tolkien describes it...

"an enormous thrush, nearly coal black, its pale yellow breast freckled with dark spots"

Michael Martinez has a great article on Tolkien's thrush here

"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
� Victoria Monfort

dormouse
Half-elven

Nov 25 2012, 11:11pm

Views: 2624

Interesting article....

... thanks for the link!

Tim
Tol Eressea

Nov 26 2012, 2:15am

Views: 2601

All this talk about birds...

Bridgekeeper: What... is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?
King Arthur: What do you mean? An African or European swallow?
Bridgekeeper: Huh? I... I don't know that. Auuuuuuuugh!
Sir Bedevere: How do know so much about swallows?
King Arthur: Well, you have to know these things when you're a king, you know.

-Tim came by. Tim! If you had heard only a quarter of what I have heard about him, and I have only heard very little of all there is to hear, you would be prepared for any sort of remarkable tale.

Aragalen the Green
Gondor

Nov 26 2012, 2:29am

Views: 2596

The swallow may fly south with the sun,

or the house martin or the plover may seek warmer climes in winter yet these are not strangers to our land."

Frito groaned. "I wish I had never been born," he said.
"Do not say that, dear Frito," cried Orlon. "It was a happy minute for us all when you were born."

Fardragon
Rohan

Nov 26 2012, 12:16pm

Views: 945

And interesting article, but a couple of other points could have been made:

The description is closer to a Mistle Thrush - another UK bird, but less common than a song thrush. It is larger and has a slightly darker back. It get's it's name from eating mistletoe, which connects it to Druidic magic.

Robins might also be thrown into the mix, since the European robin was considered a type of thrush when Tolkien was writing. In addition to their appearance on Christmas cards (often in conjunction with mistletoe), a robin serves as a guide in CS Lewis's The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, and in Frances Hodgson Burnett's The Secret Garden. There is also the nursery rhyme Who Killed Cock Robin?

***Spoiler warning***

"I," said the sparrow, "with my little arrow."

A Far Dragon is the best kind...

Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator

Jan 12 2013, 9:52pm

Views: 940

Board member (and biologist) ArchedCory

names it an American Robin. He has a webpage here where he discusses the animals of AUJ.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron�s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.

Ataahua's stories