The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
"Wranglers say 'Hobbit' animals died on unsafe farm"



N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Nov 19 2012, 4:24pm


Views: 2500
"Wranglers say 'Hobbit' animals died on unsafe farm"

Here's the story at Entertainment Weekly. They didn't die during the actual filming.

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.


Demosthenes
Sr. Staff


Nov 19 2012, 4:28pm


Views: 1511
AP did the legwork, it seems


In Reply To
Here's the story at Entertainment Weekly. They didn't die during the actual filming.


Here's the original source as far as I can tell: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_NEW_ZEALAND_HOBBIT_ANIMAL_DEATHS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

TheOneRing.net Senior Staff
IRC Admin and Hall of Fire moderator


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 19 2012, 4:31pm


Views: 1510
I'm all for animal welfare

And like the previous report a couple of months ago, it certainly needs to be investigated. Especially so it doesn't happen again on future film productions.

I read in another article that there will be a protest at the Wellington premiere. Now, I don't agree with that. A film premiere is certainly not the right time or place for such action.

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!



Bombadil
Half-elven


Nov 19 2012, 4:38pm


Views: 1560
If you READ. closely near the End..

"None are housed at that farm anymore

..and PJ adopted 3 of the Pigs...!"

This to Bomby is just headline grabbing and Sour Grapes.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Nov 19 2012, 4:42pm


Views: 1397
Thanks. //

 

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.


Sam20
Lorien

Nov 19 2012, 5:28pm


Views: 1417
Animals

I agree with DanielB, there has to be a follow up to know exactly how it came to happen and who is to be held responsible. I don't think the problem is how they've been treated in their use in The Hobbit but perhaps in the management of handing them over to a proper farm where they belong. A protest in the Hobbit premier seems to me prematured, no one with compassion wants to see animals been ill treated but let's get our fact straight before trying to disrupt an event.


(This post was edited by sam90 on Nov 19 2012, 5:31pm)


shadowdog
Rohan

Nov 19 2012, 5:34pm


Views: 1380
Weren't there simililar

claims made about horses in the filming of Lord of the Rings?


macfalk
Valinor


Nov 19 2012, 5:37pm


Views: 1392
But those rumours were debunked

Let me find the source...



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Carne
Tol Eressea

Nov 19 2012, 5:52pm


Views: 1353
I seem to remember this being a guy who had no proof trying to blame the production

And as you said, wasn't this debunked months ago?


(This post was edited by Carne on Nov 19 2012, 5:52pm)


Magpie
Immortal


Nov 19 2012, 5:58pm


Views: 1360
If it's the story I remember from a few months back

(with 'few' probably being longer than I remember)...

then it wasn't debunked. I remember it being a heated conversation among people who believed it to be true and people who wanted to have more of the story before they decided what to believe.

In the end, we only get snippets of information whether it be from the 'no animals were harmed' camp or the 'it was terrible abuse' camp and, imo, we aren't ever going to know the full story. Too many people have agendas or reputations to protect and it seems that even the neutral third parties don't do that good a job at monitoring for the public at large.

Personally, I am always very suspect of people coming out with information like this at opportune moments. It just seems like there must be channels one can go through to effect real and lasting change (or punishment) than through demonstrations and press releases. Why weren't those channels explored - or, if they were - why aren't we told about them?


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Nov 19 2012, 7:38pm


Views: 1279
And as long as

the final truth is concealed, many people will be considering PJ and everyone involed in the film as horrible, heartless, animal abusing frauds. Well, that's the world for you.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Nov 19 2012, 7:40pm


Views: 1301
No the original LOTR claims were pretty thoroughly debunked

But the ones from a few months ago were simply left as allegations.

LR


comandantedavid
The Shire

Nov 19 2012, 7:40pm


Views: 1277
I remember ...

a strong tendency on the forum to treat the accusations as unfounded, perhaps contributing to our friend's recollection that they had been "debunked." I don't think the animal deaths can be laid at PJ's door, and I'm not surprised that parts of such a massive operation would go awry. But I do think we can separate being fans of the film from being partisan for a production company.

And "proper channels" fail all the time, but the news doesn't usually want to cover the dull narrative of every pencil pusher who yawned at a complaint. The properly skeptical response to poorly reported accusations is to wait for more info, not to suspect ex ante that the messenger is looking for five minutes of fame. In this case, more info seems to support the initial accusations.


comandantedavid
The Shire

Nov 19 2012, 7:43pm


Views: 1277
Here's the story about "proper channels":

"Smythe said he was fired in October 2011 after arguing with his boss about the treatment of the animals."

"A fourth wrangler, who didn’t want to be named because she feared it could jeopardize her future employment in the industry..."

Not exhaustive, but it illustrates the problem.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Nov 20 2012, 2:50am


Views: 1086
A better article than the previous one, thanks NEB {nt}

 


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Nov 20 2012, 6:18am


Views: 1061
A longer comment from Jackson

http://www.torontosun.com/...al-abuse-allegations

Don't be put off by the tabloid-esque title of the piece, it seems to be several inches of a direct statement from Jackson.


Username4242
Bree

Nov 20 2012, 6:44am


Views: 1077
Full statement from Peter Jackson:

http://www.facebook.com/notes/peter-jackson/animal-allegations-on-the-hobbit/10151300381651558

Unsurprisingly, PETA is full of it.


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 20 2012, 8:10am


Views: 1010
Thanks, I missed this.

And thank you to PJ for clearing that up. It's ridiculous that he (more likely his representative) has to spend his/their valuable time in defending themselves, when they have far more important things to be getting on with.

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!



Lissuin
Valinor


Nov 20 2012, 9:38am


Views: 994
Statements from producers and American Humane Association

All we've heard today is pretty one-sided. Here is some alternate interpretation of events.

1) American Humane Association review of The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey:

http://www.americanhumanefilmtv.org/...-unexpected-journey/

2) From producers of The Hobbit, as reported in Deadline Hollywood today http://www.deadline.com/...animal-death-claims/:

Quote
The Hobbit production has always instituted swift and immediate investigations in to any concerns of any kind over the treatment of animals under its care. A prompt and thorough investigation into the recent unsubstantiated allegations by the American organisation, PETA, in to the ‘hobbling’ of a horse during the making of The Hobbit was undertaken. No evidence of such a practice was found to have occurred at any time. Further, the production contacted the owner of the horse concerned who provided the following statement: “I am 100% happy with the return of Shanghai and his condition. In the term that he was leased he was picked up and returned to me two times. On both occasions there was not a mark on him and he was healthy and happy. He has shown no signs of ill-treatment. I would not hesitate in leasing him to the movie again.”
To date, the only horse wranglers whose treatment of animals fell below the production’s standard of care seem to be the two wranglers who have chosen to level this new accusation on the eve of the premiere of the first Hobbit film and who were dismissed by the production over a year ago. Reports of their actions are documented in several written statements dating back to October 2011.

The production regrets that PETA has chosen to make such a serious accusation, which has distressed many of the dedicated Kiwis who worked with animals on the films – including trainers, wranglers, care-givers, farm workers and animal health care professionals - without properly vetting the source from which they received this information.



Quote
The producers of The Hobbit take the welfare of all animals very seriously and have always pursued the highest standard of care for animals in their charge. Any incidents that occurred that were brought to their attention as regards to this care were immediately investigated and appropriate action taken. This includes hundreds of thousands of dollars that were spent on upgrading housing and stable facilities in early 2011.

The producers completely reject the accusations that twenty seven animals died due to mistreatment during the making of the films. Extraordinary measures were taken to make sure that animals were not used during action sequences or any other sequence that might create undue stress for the animals involved. Over fifty five per cent of all shots using animals in The Hobbit are in fact computer generated; this includes horses, ponies, rabbits, hedgehogs, birds, deer, elk, mice, wild boars, and wolves.

The American Humane Association (AHA) was on hand to monitor all use of animals by the production. No animals died or were harmed on set during filming.

We regret that some of these accusations by wranglers who were dismissed from the film over a year ago are only now being brought to our attention. We are currently investigating these new allegations and are attempting to speak with all parties involved to establish the truth.


I don't want animals to die or suffer in the making of any film - on or off set (and neither, I'm absolutely certain, do the film makers) - AND I don't want accusations of mistreatment as reported in the press to be accepted as fact without an investigation. We have the Associated Press report of things the wranglers claim happened, and we have the producers' statements here and in several articles today that when problems were reported, steps were taken to correct them. In any case, let the AHA or an officially appointed New Zealand organization continue to make sure that animals used in all forms of entertainment are safe.


Lissuin
Valinor


Nov 20 2012, 9:40am


Views: 976
And see Home page article just posted

"Statement from Peter Jackson and the producers of The Hobbit about animal mistreatment allegations"

http://www.theonering.net/...eatment-allegations/


(This post was edited by Lissuin on Nov 20 2012, 9:42am)


Demosthenes
Sr. Staff


Nov 20 2012, 1:55pm


Views: 962
There is a discrepancy between PETA's claims and the AP report

The Associated Press report doesn't address the hobbling and rope-burn allegations.

I'm trying to discover why, since PETA claims to have supplied AP the numbers on the animal deaths "exclusively".

Might not get any answers, but we'll see.

TheOneRing.net Senior Staff
IRC Admin and Hall of Fire moderator


TheHutt
Gondor


Nov 20 2012, 2:06pm


Views: 956
PETA campaign?

I got contacted by PETA a couple of weeks ago about a request to give them permission to use the Ringbearer font (which I designed) for, quote:


Quote
-A fan-friendly infographic detailing the issues
-materials for various live protests
-a banner for our main feature page detailing the issues


I don't want to sound paranoid, but it looks like some planned campaign to me, specifically targeted against The Hobbit. Or it is some great coincidence.

Russian LotR/Hobbit Site:


Henneth-annun.ru - the Russian LOTR site


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 20 2012, 2:16pm


Views: 930
There's supposed to be a protest at the premiere in Wellington.

Might be for that?

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!



TheHutt
Gondor


Nov 20 2012, 2:27pm


Views: 925
Probably.

Anyway, I haven't give them permission. Smile

Russian LotR/Hobbit Site:


Henneth-annun.ru - the Russian LOTR site


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Nov 20 2012, 3:47pm


Views: 897
One more time Daniel?

Laugh


The Preciousss
Bree

Nov 20 2012, 3:49pm


Views: 567
I have totaly lost respect for PETA a long time ago...

Here in Germany they try to push laws through that forbid the exotic animals as pet. They tend to approach politicans who are under pressure before elections and present facts and numbers that are totally invented by them. For example they frauded a statistic about poison accidents that said that 95% of all emergency calls to the poison emergency center were from pet snakes (around 3000 a year). When investigated, the emergency center responded that they were never asked by PETA and the statistic was totally wrong. I don't have the exact numbers, but it was more like: 5% bites from snakes which equaled about 20 a year. But at that time the damage was already done. A law that forbid's the keeping of poisonous animals was passed, the politicans didn't want to admid that they acted prematurely and the press ignored the facts. This law is now upheld in several states and forbids not only the keeping and breeding of poisonous snakes, but for example Poison Dart Frogs (which lose their poison in captivity as well ) some of which are nearly extinct in the wild and only survive through dedicated breeders.


There was also a big uprear in the USA, IIRC about PETA taking dogs and cats from asylums under the pretense of adopting them, only to euthanize them and dumping them in the trash. Here is the link( but only in German, trying to find one in english): http://www.oe24.at/welt/Zuerst-gerettet-und-dann-eingeschlaefert/784463


Kassandros
Rohan


Nov 20 2012, 3:54pm


Views: 557
Have there been any reports about how many cows, pigs, and chickens were slaughtered to feed the crew?

Why are people so much more concerned about horses than about cows, pigs, and chickens? All of those creatures can be very affectionate and form close bonds with each other and with humans.

I'm not going to engage in a discussion of vegetarianism, but I must say it amuses me when people get so worked over dogs or horses but think nothing of the horrific conditions other animals are raised in so that they can have a burger or chicken nuggets at McDonald's.

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...


The Preciousss
Bree

Nov 20 2012, 4:03pm


Views: 508
Here is a the Link:

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/

I wonder that PETA still has followers...


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 20 2012, 4:20pm


Views: 508
I've only just noticed!

I thought double posting was impossible on the forum? I'll get admins to have a look.Crazy

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!



Tim
Tol Eressea


Nov 20 2012, 4:32pm


Views: 501
Why would there be?

They all taste good.

-Tim came by. Tim! If you had heard only a quarter of what I have heard about him, and I have only heard very little of all there is to hear, you would be prepared for any sort of remarkable tale.


imin
Valinor


Nov 20 2012, 4:35pm


Views: 486
PETA - people eating tasty animals //

 


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Nov 20 2012, 6:25pm


Views: 464
People like them make all animal protectors look bad

It's the same with any good intention: some nutjobs ruin it by making the public believe everyone supporting it are idiots.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Nov 20 2012, 6:28pm


Views: 496
Imma just leave this here...


=)

**********************************


NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011

(This post was edited by Eowyn of Penns Woods on Nov 20 2012, 6:32pm)


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Nov 20 2012, 8:35pm


Views: 430
*copies, saves* :D /

 

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Nov 20 2012, 9:00pm


Views: 409
Flawless victory. //

 

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Kassandros
Rohan


Nov 20 2012, 9:43pm


Views: 402
Victory over whom, exactly? //

 

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...


ceppault
Bree


Nov 20 2012, 9:48pm


Views: 407
Timely fodder by PETA

Appears a textbook case of what should occur when something unfortunate happens. A serious problem with the animals was identified. It was voluntarily brought up, and it was investigated by the appropriate authority on the matter. Measures were placed to keep it from happening again.

Not going to lose sleep over it.

Can't help but feel the deaths of the animals are being exploited for gain. That is what is sad.

Production Locations on Google Maps
The Hobbit
The Return of the King
The Two Towers
The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by ceppault on Nov 20 2012, 9:54pm)


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Nov 20 2012, 10:56pm


Views: 374
The rising argument.

Some people have the gift to kill the building tension by doing something silly. If one participants stubbornly wishes to continue, s/he is left looking like someone beating the dead horse.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied

(This post was edited by Faenoriel on Nov 20 2012, 10:57pm)


Kassandros
Rohan


Nov 20 2012, 11:15pm


Views: 365
"beating the dead horse" - Wow. //

 

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...


Elenorflower
Gondor


Nov 21 2012, 12:36am


Views: 360
poor old PJ

he really has to deal with a lot of sour grapes and nonsense. I am sure he pays people to make sure things like this dont happen? surely his team should nip these problems in the bud before they blow up.


squitzl
The Shire

Nov 21 2012, 2:33am


Views: 362
Poor old PJ perhaps...

But the main problem PETA is addressing is that even though the AHA, who were hired to take care of the animals, failed at their job, the concerns raised and brought to the attention of the production company were subsequently ignored them and fired the few who had complained.

Whether or not this is true remains to be seen and until we have the full information we really need to not make any accusations or assumptions. (Not saying you were just making a general statement.)

A lot of it seems like wordplay. PJ saying the animals didn't die 'during filming' does not mean that they didn't die. But we shouldn't assume that they did die until a full investigation has been carried out.

I will be attending the premier so I'm bummed about the picketing as anyone would be. However if the allegations are true then people need to be aware. Big production companies need to be aware that having an audience depends on them making adequate considerations for the animals involved in the film.

Neglect of animal welfare is simply not okay.


(This post was edited by squitzl on Nov 21 2012, 2:37am)


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Nov 21 2012, 4:00pm


Views: 323
Yep. //

 

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Nov 21 2012, 4:05pm


Views: 331
If PETA really cared

they would have brough this up when it happened, not now when they get the maxium media attention.

Also, isn't it just convienent how now there's no way to proof anything? Anyone can make accusations a year later, because the accused one cannot disprove something that happened so long ago. Undisproved = almost real = the suspect will forever remain guilty.

The fact that PETA has lied their little heart out in the past doesn't make them the more believable party here.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Elenorflower
Gondor


Nov 21 2012, 4:10pm


Views: 324
absolutely

its not ok for animals to be harmed, thats obvious. But I am against the knee-jerk reaction of some people to blame PJ for things not under his direct control. He is a film director, and is there to do a vastly difficult job with HUGE logistical problems, he has enough on his plate without having to worry about animal welfare. The studio and/or his team should sort the day to day administration of the shoot surely? Its the person PAID to organize the animals scenes and hires the animals and is in contact with the animals owners and the wranglers on the shoot. that has the responsibility to make sure no animals are harmed. They are paid to do this job, so that PJ can get on with his job. If they do a bad job well it sucks, but that remains to be seen, in my opinion all this is a huge waste of time and no animals were really hurt. I also saw on the blogs how much CARE the whole team put into making sure the land is not disturbed during shooting. They made a huge bridge over some land to stop trampling feet and disturbance of the flora and fauna. That shows PJ and co are very keen eco issues on how they use the land and it seems unbelievable they would allow animals to be hurt. IMHO.


Kassandros
Rohan


Nov 21 2012, 4:14pm


Views: 331
"its not ok for animals to be harmed, thats obvious." - Really?

Your position really is that it's never ok for any animal to be harmed? For any reason? No animals should ever be harmed for food? For medical research? For making leather or fur to use in costumes?

I'm guessing you misspoke, but it might be good to think about in just which circumstances it's ok to harm an animal and in which circumstances it isn't.

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...


Lissuin
Valinor


Nov 21 2012, 7:51pm


Views: 347
Today's news: Is it [sic] a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury...

signifying nothing?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/...mp;objectid=10849134


imin
Valinor


Nov 21 2012, 8:49pm


Views: 312
Its ok in certain circumstances

Such as to eat them or for medical research where there are no other choices - i would rather test on an animal than a human, to me a human life is worth more than an animals, this is not to say animals are worthless its just if push came to shove i would save my mum before saving my dog - therefore humans are more important to me overall.

I wouldnt want to see needless harm come to animals - as in being cruel to them for no reason or shooting them for fun.

I think you can eat meat and still respect animals as people have believed for thousands of years.

Current practices of slaughter stun the animal and keep them apart so they dont see what is about to happen (for pigs in the uk atleast). So it decreases stress levels and they are unconscious and paraylsed before being killed or killed instantly.

Ultimately i could if i had to live a vegetarian life and it would be better for the environment - allowing other animals to thrive where there would only be cattle etc but ultimately if the animal was raised well and cared for and given a quick painless death then im ok with that and would be willing to kill it myself as i have done.


Elenorflower
Gondor


Nov 21 2012, 10:35pm


Views: 288
wow!

so much patronizing in so little time. My compliments to the Vegan chef!


squitzl
The Shire

Nov 21 2012, 11:01pm


Views: 297
I understand, but my point was...

That although Peter can't oversee everything, and the people paid to do their job failed, the allegations are that the whistle-blowers were ignored by the production company. (which I'm not sure is true seeing as they spent a lot of money improving the farm conditions after the reports.) But if PJ and/or co. ignored and fired whistleblowers, it obviously means that they were aware and were choosing not to take the rap.

I tend to lean towards siding with PJ, due to Peta's bad track record. But we can't just baselessly accuse Peta of false allegations or we're simply as bad as them. They might end up having told the truth, remember, PJ has a lot of money invested in this project.

The point is let's not jump to conclusions, just because Peta have lied before doesn't necessarily mean they are lying now.


Elenorflower
Gondor


Nov 22 2012, 12:51am


Views: 365
I didnt mention PETA

so please dont say I accused them of anything. I didnt mention them, nor was I thinking about them.