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Brian Sibley's Official Movie Guide to The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (some spoiler pics)



Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Oct 27 2012, 2:23pm


Views: 5301
Brian Sibley's Official Movie Guide to The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (some spoiler pics)

Well, my copy arrived this morning! Lots of great behind-the-scenes info to digest, but sadly not too many new pictures...I guess that's because we've been spoilt so much with all the v-logs and still recently released. But never fear, there are a few you won't have seen yet!

For those who wish to, click on the following links to see

1. "Galadriel wears a coat in shot silk, woven with a metallic thread that magically catches the light...Beneath the coat, Galadriel wears a chiffon dress covered in rivulets of Swarovski crystals that look like running water over another shimmering layer of beaded chiffon." That, I believe, is the one we saw in an early v-log, the metallic, mink/gold colour...
And this is another stunning dress not described!
http://i574.photobucket.com/...0Special/sibley4.jpg

2. Hob Gammidge? If this is indeed the hobbit-hole we saw Sam and Rosie in front of at the close of RotK, might this been Sam's Grandad??
http://i574.photobucket.com/...0Special/sibley1.jpg

3. Old Took's party?
http://i574.photobucket.com/...0Special/sibley2.jpg

4. Rhosgobel set (outside) & Radagast
http://i574.photobucket.com/...0Special/sibley5.jpg

5. A more familiar-style orc...
http://i574.photobucket.com/...0Special/sibley6.jpg

6. How Aiden Turner might have looked as a dwarf with his own hair & beard, in the early days of training!
http://i574.photobucket.com/...0Special/sibley3.jpg

Obviously there's a lot to read so any further spoilers may appear later on, but for now, I will confirm that the three trolls are both voiced and mo-capped by Mark Hadlow (Bert) William Kircher (Tom) and Peter Hambleton (William)


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






(This post was edited by Eleniel on Oct 27 2012, 2:25pm)


architecthis
Neirol


Oct 27 2012, 2:28pm


Views: 2945
the links dont work

 


burgahobbit
NahoR


Oct 27 2012, 2:32pm


Views: 2924
Cool!

At least William Kircher gets to talk in English a little bit in the Hobbit! I feel kind of sorry for the guy being silent all the time. Laugh

Nice pictures! But the first three aren't showing up when I click the links...


burgahobbit
NahoR


Oct 27 2012, 2:33pm


Views: 2937
The last three worked for me

Rhosgobel is awesome!

Edit: Now those are taken down too! Something tells me these pictures weren't supposed to be seen...


(This post was edited by burgahobbit on Oct 27 2012, 2:34pm)


Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Oct 27 2012, 2:36pm


Views: 2973
Just the first three?

Sorry, I'll try again:

Nope...sorry, the links aren't staying up, but if you know where to find the scans of the EMPIRE article, you'll find these pictures too! Wink


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






(This post was edited by Eleniel on Oct 27 2012, 2:41pm)


burgahobbit
NahoR


Oct 27 2012, 2:40pm


Views: 2894
Interesting, once again it's just the last three that worked

The others say page not found. Do they work for you by any chance?


Estel78
Aessere Lot

Oct 27 2012, 2:41pm


Views: 2893
First three still don't work. :) //

 


Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Oct 27 2012, 2:43pm


Views: 2981
They worked initially...

...then I was getting the same "not found" message after a minute or so. Frown

Anyway, see my helpful(?) hint in my re-edited second post, above!


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






Carne
Aessere Lot

Oct 27 2012, 2:46pm


Views: 2901
How come you got the book so early?

Crazy

The reason your links don't work is because you haven't copied and pasted all of it.


(This post was edited by Carne on Oct 27 2012, 2:52pm)


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Rodnog


Oct 27 2012, 2:50pm


Views: 2876
None of them works for me :(

Can someone send me a link (at least as a private message) of that orc? Thanks.

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Oct 27 2012, 2:52pm


Views: 3017
I pre-ordered from the Book Depository...

(like DanielLB, I believe) and they contacted us a few days ago saying the publishers had release the books earlier than the expected date.

I'm just going to try linking a different way and see if this works!

1. Dress http://s574.photobucket.com/...urrent%3Dsibley4.jpg

2. Hob Gammidge? http://s574.photobucket.com/...;current=sibley1.jpg

3. Party http://s574.photobucket.com/...urrent%3Dsibley2.jpg

4. Rhosgobel http://s574.photobucket.com/...urrent%3Dsibley5.jpg

5. Turner http://s574.photobucket.com/...urrent%3Dsibley3.jpg

6. Orc http://s574.photobucket.com/...urrent%3Dsibley6.jpg


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Oct 27 2012, 2:57pm


Views: 2953
Such a shame

Turner looked great with his own beard. A missed opportunity, IMO, and a decision that was almost certainly made for the benefit of pre-teens...

It's odd, because at least in the United States, it seems that beards are "in" more for young people than they are for the old. So, he may have still been deemed attractive by the majority of young female viewers, beard or no...


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Rodnog


Oct 27 2012, 2:58pm


Views: 2933
Now it works! :-)

Thank you! These pictures look amazing! Galadriel ist so beautiful and I'm happy to see another LOTR-Orc Smile

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Lusitano
Aessere Lot


Oct 27 2012, 3:06pm


Views: 2891
Interesting

I think men are just tired of all the anti beard agenda that we have had to endure for decades].

I for one, have spent the last three years sporting different kinds of beards, always dwarfy Wink

I dont know where this beardless, hairless, unhealthy fixation that we often see in movies, television has come from...but it certainly doesnt match the reality of female tastes. At least in my experience. Smile


Carne
Aessere Lot

Oct 27 2012, 3:08pm


Views: 2800
How long did it take from they shipped the book till it arrived?

 


(This post was edited by Carne on Oct 27 2012, 3:09pm)


Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Oct 27 2012, 3:15pm


Views: 2791
Well, I got the email on Tuesday (23rd)...

...saying the book would be despatched in the next few days - and it arrived this morning!


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






Carne
Aessere Lot

Oct 27 2012, 3:17pm


Views: 2763
Thank you.

I'm thinking of canceling my Amazon order now as they still only know of November 8th and rather buy from that site Smile


Estel78
Aessere Lot

Oct 27 2012, 3:19pm


Views: 2812
Beards, yes, but hair all over the place? I doubt ladies like that. ;) //


In Reply To
I dont know where this beardless, hairless, unhealthy fixation that we often see in movies, television has come from...but it certainly doesnt match the reality of female tastes. At least in my experience. Smile



Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Oct 27 2012, 3:22pm


Views: 2822
Hairiness is manliness

And manliness is hairiness!


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Ronilav

Oct 27 2012, 3:27pm


Views: 2778
I resemble that remark! //

 

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Oct 27 2012, 3:28pm


Views: 2767
Me too!

 


Estel78
Aessere Lot

Oct 27 2012, 3:34pm


Views: 2747
Even on the back and shoulders? :P //

 


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Oct 27 2012, 3:36pm


Views: 2729
No, but

I wish! Smile


burgahobbit
NahoR


Oct 27 2012, 3:49pm


Views: 2756
Like everybody else

I don't know why there's a party in the Hobbit...but I'm glad to see Gandalf dancing with hobbits again! Smile


Lusitano
Aessere Lot


Oct 27 2012, 3:51pm


Views: 2759
Sexy chimpanse styles apart...

Estel, that depends on the definition of all over the place and the thickness, amount of hair Wink Even bears can be attractive haha.

And some little growing hair line just above your bum climbing your back is....cute....so i'm told Tongue

Shelob : Hear Hear! And i would add : Manliness is Freedom and Freedom is Hairiness Smile


DanielLB
Latrommi


Oct 27 2012, 3:54pm


Views: 1162
Mine has arrived too!

Can't wait to get home!

I haven't read the entire thread yet - but the links don't work. I expect it will be explained if I carry on reading. Cool

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Ardamírë
Ronilav


Oct 27 2012, 3:54pm


Views: 1177
Galadriel looks great!//

 

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


DanielLB
Latrommi


Oct 27 2012, 3:55pm


Views: 1158
That picture of Cate is awful /

 

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Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Oct 27 2012, 3:56pm


Views: 1166
Yes. Hairiness is FREEEDOMNESS!

USA! USA! USA!

Ahem.


Ardamírë
Ronilav


Oct 27 2012, 3:59pm


Views: 1161
Her face looks wonky, yes

But the costume is cool and will probably look awesome on screen (with a proper facial expression!)

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


Lusitano
Aessere Lot


Oct 27 2012, 3:59pm


Views: 1160
Hairy VS Shavy

In Russia, you dont wear beard. Beard wears you.


DanielLB
Latrommi


Oct 27 2012, 3:59pm


Views: 1132
Hmmm ... I'm not sure ... /

 

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Ardamírë
Ronilav


Oct 27 2012, 4:02pm


Views: 1119
I'll be sure for you!//

 

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Oct 27 2012, 4:03pm


Views: 1153
I agree it's not the most flattering of Cate facially...

...but the dress looks fantastic! Reminds me of a glistening cobweb... Heart


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






Carne
Aessere Lot

Oct 27 2012, 4:09pm


Views: 1122
Contacted Amazon and they still only know of November 8th

Mad

So I canceled my order and bought from Book Depository instead Wink


Vangalad
Neirol


Oct 27 2012, 4:12pm


Views: 1119
Perhaps

you mean awfully gorgeous? Sly


All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.


Estel78
Aessere Lot

Oct 27 2012, 4:14pm


Views: 1105
Agree with you! //

 


Ardamírë
Ronilav


Oct 27 2012, 4:22pm


Views: 1117
Totally agree!//

 

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


DanielLB
Latrommi


Oct 27 2012, 4:37pm


Views: 1094
Normally she is!

Not here though. Unsure

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DanielLB
Latrommi


Oct 27 2012, 4:37pm


Views: 1080
That's good enough for me! ;-) /

 

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Ardamírë
Ronilav


Oct 27 2012, 4:49pm


Views: 1081
I know!

Thats why I offered! Wink

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


emre43
NahoR

Oct 27 2012, 4:55pm


Views: 1110
My mum is 51 and the only reason she is going to watch the Hobbit is because of Aidan Turner


In Reply To
Turner looked great with his own beard. A missed opportunity, IMO, and a decision that was almost certainly made for the benefit of pre-teens...

It's odd, because at least in the United States, it seems that beards are "in" more for young people than they are for the old. So, he may have still been deemed attractive by the majority of young female viewers, beard or no...



Kristin Thompson
NahoR


Oct 27 2012, 5:19pm


Views: 1086
Gandalf with fireworks and hobbits

First, thanks, Eleniel, for persisting and getting the live links up! I love the photo of Gandalf with the hobbits.

burgahobbit, the new Collider story linked on the front page probably explains why there would be a party, I think. It says that the film will include Gandalf's early acquaintance with Bilbo as a child, whom the book hints began when the wizard came to the Shire to put off fireworks for the Old Took's Midsummer parties. I imagine there will be a flashback to that, which should be charming. I hope, anyway.

That Collider story is very informative, by the way, well worth a read despite some of it being already-known.


Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Oct 27 2012, 5:22pm


Views: 1138
Nice quotes

I know many of us are interested to hear what Philippa Boyens has to say about how the scriptwriters approached their task, so I thought I would share a couple of comforting quotes:

From the chapter which discusses how they established identities for the 13 Dwarves, including dividing them into a series of distinctive family groups (Thorin, the leader and exiled king; Balin & Dwalin as old warriors and members of the nobility; Fili & Kili younger, eager and enthusiastic; Oin and Gloin, the well-to-do merchant class; Dori, Ori and Nori, middle-class, and Bifur, Bofur and Bombur, miners from the west...)

Quote


Clearly writing for so many characters, as individuals and as a Company, was a challenge. "What we didn't want to do", says Philippa, "was overload the film with too much information upfront. When you read Tolkien's books you see that he reveals his characters gradually in the telling of the story so we tried to follow his lead. Rather than panic about having thirteen Dwarves and the audience needing to know all about them, we allowed them to become known to us as they become known to Bilbo."


She also goes on to say:


Quote

"Considerable thought was given to the character of Bilbo. "It was very hard," recalls Philippa, "because at the beginning your main character in the story is being swept along, like a piece of luggage. But what you can't do is turn him into the hero hobbit. Bilbo can never take on that role. Every motivation in his character is an honest, genuine one. For example, he is brave in the Goblin tunnels not because he is a hero, but because he desperately wants to get out of there and survive. What is amazing about him - and it's something that is of great importance to the events that unfold in the Lord of the rings - is that he does not kill Gollum in order to escape."



"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






burgahobbit
NahoR


Oct 27 2012, 5:29pm


Views: 1033
Thanks

That should be a good scene! Very charming, as you said. Smile

I did read most of the Collider articles and I noticed the part where they talk about the child Bilbo. I just didn't put two and two together and link it to the party mystery. That sounds right though!


Estel78
Aessere Lot

Oct 27 2012, 5:38pm


Views: 1092
Does it say anything about Bifur and his "calm switch" axe?

Thanks for posting, btw.


Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Oct 27 2012, 5:55pm


Views: 1089
OMG the petition is famous!

I just turned to the chapter on Bifur (aka Willim Kircher) and nearly fell off my chair!


Quote
The decision to have Bifur living with the blade of a hatchet embedded in the front of his skull proved controversioal with some Tolkien fans, and led to the launch of an online petition to Peter Jackson to have the offending weapon removed. But, for William, it provided the impetus for an exploration of his on-screen character.... ...As an actor that gives me a whole lot of things to explore: in any situation, I'll think, "How might Bifur react in a way that's different to the others?" There are times when he has to run and fight and be part of the team, but there are others when he will do something totally unexpected and that's a joy and a challenge."



No, there's no mention of the wrenching, so hopefully that was only an ill-thought out comment in the other article.

There is a minor spoiler here for an incident during the feast at Rivendell, but I must leave something for DanielLB to post! Wink


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






thomasofrohan
Neirol

Oct 27 2012, 6:01pm


Views: 1029
Links still aren't working for me, unfortunately NT

 


Kristin Thompson
NahoR


Oct 27 2012, 6:03pm


Views: 1040
Have you tried the ones in post 11 of this thread?

They worked for me.


Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Oct 27 2012, 6:04pm


Views: 1060
Try the links in a later post from me further down the thread//

 


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






Ardamírë
Ronilav


Oct 27 2012, 6:09pm


Views: 1278
Don't taunt us

What's this spoiler??

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


Lily Fairbairn
Nevle-flah


Oct 27 2012, 6:18pm


Views: 1275
Sam's House?

No, this isn't Sam's house. I have a photo of this one I took back in December:




and a photo of Sam's house, too:




They both have yellow doors, but the triangular mailbox is in front of a different hole, and Sam's house is set into the hill differently, right next to another one.




Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Oct 27 2012, 6:22pm


Views: 1303
Oh, alright, then!

Apparently Kircher asked the prop department to make sure that there were some fresh flowers on the table for the feast in Elrond's chambers at Rivendell, since Kircher thought it might be quite interesting if, while everyone else was tucking in "-well, throwing food around, actually-" Bifur (who's a vegetarian) just sat there quietly eating the flowers!


And I can also tell you that Adam Brown's feature confirms that Jackson is acknowledging Ori's role as recorder, carrying a book in which he is always recording events and making sketches, thus linking him to the scene in Moria from Fellowship.

"I did a cracking job in that movie," jokes Adam. "I lost a lost weight for that role: practically a skeleton!"


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Oct 27 2012, 6:27pm


Views: 1269
Haha!

That online petition was started by Voronwe, in response to a petition thread I posted here at TORN.

And it got some media coverage!

Whoever said petitions are completely useless was wrong! (Though, the petition is likely to have had ZERO influence on the production)

Smile


Estel78
Aessere Lot

Oct 27 2012, 6:39pm


Views: 1250
So, in other words, useless. ;)

 

In Reply To
(Though, the petition is likely to have had ZERO influence on the production)



(This post was edited by Estel78 on Oct 27 2012, 6:40pm)


Ardamírë
Ronilav


Oct 27 2012, 6:55pm


Views: 1224
Thanks!!

That actually sounds pretty good. I'm very much looking forward to the feast in Rivendell. Actually, I'm very much looking forward to all parts in Rivendell. Hopefully we're there for 30-45 minutes. Anything less and I'll feel robbed.

So, about Ori. Are they trying to make it sound like Ori is the one who wrote the book in Moria? So he went with Balin? Interesting. There was speculation earlier that Balin leaves Thorin before the BoFA, due to creative differences or something. It's possible Ori leaves with him and we're to imagine that he ends up with Balin in Moria. I quite like the idea. It's an unobtrusive connection between the trilogies, which are always the best connections.

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Ronilav

Oct 27 2012, 7:18pm


Views: 1202
They probably noticed ...

... that not all that many people actually ended up signing it, and that in fact the counter-petition that Alatar started got roughly as many signatures. Which is one reason why I think that, as ridiculous as I think that feature is, there is likely to be as many people who think it is "kewl" (without thinking that is a bad thing) as there are people who think it is idiotic.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


thomasofrohan
Neirol

Oct 27 2012, 7:31pm


Views: 1195
Personally, I don't just think it's "kewl"

Although I do believe it is a neat design choice, and I like how they're making the injury a part of his character instead of just a design quirk. I love what I've seen of Bifur so far, and the descriptions of his personality are very promising. Whatever one thinks of how they've written and designed him, there's no questioning that Bifur is certainly going to be a unique screen presence (whether or not you support that is entirely your choice).


(This post was edited by thomasofrohan on Oct 27 2012, 7:34pm)


DanielLB
Latrommi


Oct 27 2012, 7:40pm


Views: 1189
Poor Bifur

That dratted axe in the skull. Unsure

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Malveth
Llednevir

Oct 27 2012, 7:49pm


Views: 1227
Oh lord...

A party in Hobbiton for...some reason...Dwarves with ax-heads embedded in their skulls...Dwarves eating flowers...can anyone tell what in Middle-Earth any of this has to do with Jrr Tolkien's book & why PJ couldn't just make up his own absurd story???


Carne
Aessere Lot

Oct 27 2012, 7:50pm


Views: 1205
The party is most likely Gandalf meeting a young Bilbo

As in a flashback.

Unless something else is mentioned in the book.


(This post was edited by Carne on Oct 27 2012, 7:52pm)


Malveth
Llednevir

Oct 27 2012, 8:14pm


Views: 1195
Alas...

I don't find that thought any more comforting. It seems that PJ has taken a beautifully simple & direct story and made it impossibly over-complicated and very unlike the original. Very much a she did with "King Kong" and far too many aspects of LotRs, for my taste anyway.


DanielLB
Latrommi


Oct 27 2012, 10:24pm


Views: 1092
Did you order the visual companion as well Eleniel? /

 

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There&ThereAgain
NahoR


Oct 27 2012, 10:33pm


Views: 1098
I'm pretty sure we knew that from the day the same crew were making The Hobbit as LOTR

it wasn't going to be the lovely story that Tolkien originally wrote, which is fine because I can read the book whenever I want.

The things that make The Hobbit great as a piece of literature were never going to translate onscreen especially with the way PJ makes films, so I think you should take solace in that fact.

multiple interpretations is something I try to embrace (helps keep my blood pressure down too). Angelic

PJ's version is going to be the exciting, swashbuckling adventure version of The Hobbit.

"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas

(This post was edited by There&ThereAgain on Oct 27 2012, 10:34pm)


There&ThereAgain
NahoR


Oct 27 2012, 10:35pm


Views: 1059
thanks!

for sharing these tidbits.

Filmmaking is such a problem-solving process, Philippa is very aware of this and I think her instincts are always good.

"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas


Lacrimae Rerum
SnevaH Yerg

Oct 27 2012, 11:00pm


Views: 1061
I'm not sure that

Showing Gandalf meeting Belladonna etc. rather than having Gandalf describe it is obviously "impossibly over-complicated" or "very unlike the original".

LR


Malveth
Llednevir

Oct 27 2012, 11:16pm


Views: 1102
I appreciate...

That you and millions of others will probably enjoy the film, and I have absolutely no ill feeling about that, I wish the world the utmost enjoyment; however:

"it [isn't] going to be the lovely story that Tolkien originally wrote"

Begs the question: Why Bother?? Why not invent his *own* story?? Why desecrate a beautiful novel?

I don't think Peter Jackson has an imagination at all. He's a good showman in the manner of PT Barnum and Cecil B. Demille, but he has nothing to say, no stories to tell. The best he could do was dreck like "Meet The Feebles" or "The Frighteners". Without Tolkien, he'd be nowhere right now, or at least millions of miles from the freedom, money, and fame he presently enjoys. He repays that debt by corrupting The Hobbit beyond recognition.

But I'll stop, this is why I never come here. I don't want to kill anyone's buzz. This movie's just not for me.


titanium_hobbit
NahoR


Oct 28 2012, 12:26am


Views: 1002
come to the reading room!

The book is lovingly discussed there. :)


Hobbit firster, Book firster.


Have you explored all of TORN's forums?


There&ThereAgain
NahoR


Oct 28 2012, 12:28am


Views: 1026
I understand your chagrin

I really do and I agree that PJ is a showmen, but Middle-Earth has spectacle!

Nothing from the films is from thin-air, it's teased and extrapolated from things Tolkien wrote even if they are twisted to be silly, bombastic or flamboyant, but hey, that's this version.

I guess I come from a place where I don't see this as a desecration, even Tolkien understood, he didn't own Middle-Earth, nor does PJ, nor do you or I. If we want to make our own version that focuses on the poetry, the history the FOOD (which I would), then I can go and do that.

Art is beautiful because it's open for anyway to play in. Just like blues and jazz, any other art form is open to remix, reboot, reconstruct, recontextualize and reimagine. Nothing exists in a vacuum. We are merely a string in a long history of influences and influencers.

It is unfortunate that certain things we like get interpreted in a way that doesn't gel with our tastes, but at the end of the day we should be happy that anyone and everyone has the ability to create to their own desires.

Sorry to get didactic, but I feel very strongly about the subject matter.

CrazyBlush

"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas

(This post was edited by There&ThereAgain on Oct 28 2012, 12:31am)


Aragorn22
Erihs Eht


Oct 28 2012, 12:33am


Views: 996
Hobbit

Not sure how you can say this movie is beyond recognition?! It is not gonna be a perfect translation but it appears to be pretty faithful were it counts. No movie adaptation is ever gonna be perfect. I feel Peter and company truly try to capture the real essence of the books( lotr) and will do so here. I can't wait.


Malveth
Llednevir

Oct 28 2012, 12:41am


Views: 984
I understand...

As I said, this movie isn't for me.


Malveth
Llednevir

Oct 28 2012, 12:41am


Views: 977
You're right...

I wonder if Pete would allow me to lovingly reinterpret one of his films? Just a fan-edit, nothing too drastic, maybe a half hour version of "Heavenly Creatures", removing all the things I personally think are superfluous to the film, or a version of "Forgotten Silver" where the words "This Is A Hoax" flash onscreen in red every five minutes? I'm sure he wouldn't mind, his version would still exist. Maybe a novel based on "The Frighteners" where the main character is addicted to crack and all of the supernatural events are only in his head - after all, prose is a *completely different* medium! Some changes would *have* to be made to make the story more acceptable! I'm sure he'd be A-Okay with that. Unless he's (ugh) a Purist! How selfish of him. I should be able to express myself too! His films don't belong to him, they belong to all of us. My interpretation is as valid as his. Yes, I am sure that PJ would be fine with that, and no legal action would be taken, and all of his fans would also support my creativity.


There&ThereAgain
NahoR


Oct 28 2012, 12:42am


Views: 956
all good!

thanks for listening to me ramble. Heart

"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas


tripecac
Llednevir

Oct 28 2012, 12:43am


Views: 997
About the book


Quote
I don't want to kill anyone's buzz.

Said like a teatotaller in a busy pub. Many of us see your point, and aren't completely disagreeing with you, but we are here for the beer, not the sermons.

Getting back on topic, I'm curious about the book itself. Does it have a lot of "meat" on its bones, in terms of information about the construction of the movie? And is the writing as engaging as Brian's similar LotR book? Or does it feel rushed?

I remember there were two versions of Brian's LotR book, right? One came out in the midst of filming, and so lacked some of the information still under embargo. The second version was more complete.

Does Brian's first Hobbit book feel more like a "version 1", or a "part 1"? In other words, will a subsequent book replace this one or complement it?











Malveth
Llednevir

Oct 28 2012, 12:45am


Views: 981
The irony is...

I'd probably enjoy a completely original, bugnuts insane comedy/fantasy movie from him. I loved his idea of doing a "Monty Python" take on epic fantasy. I just don't see how that is relevant to Tolkien.


Aragorn22
Erihs Eht


Oct 28 2012, 12:46am


Views: 1080
??

Ummm.. Not quite the same thing and pretty dramatic but to each their own. I love the books and ill enjoy the movies I'm sure.


Malveth
Llednevir

Oct 28 2012, 12:46am


Views: 1116
Apologies..

I was far off topic!

And let me go on record as a huge Brian Sibley fan. His book on Disney's "Snow White" is one of my favorite "coffee table" movie books.


Beutlin
Llednevir

Oct 28 2012, 1:10am


Views: 1112
"Desecrate"? "Corrupting The Hobbit"?

Your quasi-religious tone about the book is very amusing.

Ceterum censeo montem artis magicae atrae esse delendum.


Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 1:33am


Views: 1052
I'll say I whole heartedly agree and leave it at that

 I think the Hobbit will be noticeable in the films whats from the text and whats not from it, But I agree its a shame they feel they need to add so much to it to make it a success.


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Oct 28 2012, 1:35am)


HiddenSpring
Neirol

Oct 28 2012, 2:05am


Views: 1010
I'd be willing to bet...

...this is our first look at Galadriel in Dol Guldur Wink

She looks terrifying - in a good way.


Lusitano
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 2:17am


Views: 1019
Beutlin

Not to Billy Connolly...


Carne
Aessere Lot

Oct 28 2012, 2:41am


Views: 1015
I'm curious about this as well

I have the post-filming book and it's packed with behind the scenes info and photos. Doesn't sound like that's the case with this one Unsure


(This post was edited by Carne on Oct 28 2012, 2:42am)


Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 7:47am


Views: 919
No, but I dare say I'll pick it up in the stores later...

...the other book I have on order is the Weta Chronicles: Art and Design. Looking forward to that!


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






DanielLB
Latrommi


Oct 28 2012, 7:49am


Views: 928
Ahh. I ordered both!

I'll be picking them up tomorrow. Hopefully that one has some more spoilers too!

Smile

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!



Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Oct 28 2012, 7:50am


Views: 914
And hopefully

You will scan lots of the spoilerific pages! Smile


Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 7:57am


Views: 940
Sibley LotR Books

I have both Brian's LotR Official Movie Guide and the LotR The Making of the Movie Trilogy, if those are the two you are meaning?

I would say the Hobbit Official Guide is on a par with the LotR version, obviously enough, in terms of depth and coverage. Very much just tickling the surface in a lot of cases. As I said, a lot of the pictures are the same official stllls we have seen over the past few months, with various photos of behind the scenes activity which correspond with what we have seen in the v-logs to date. There is a two-page spread of drawings by Alan & John... Each major role/actor is given a double-page feature, there's brief sections on wardrobe, wigs, prosthetics, and the techncal side, including 3D., etc as well as an article on how Tolkien wrote The Hobbit, how Peter came to take the decision to handle directing, his approach, etc. The usual stuff.

I agree that "The Making of" book is more comprehensive for "Rings" so hopefully there will be similar to come for "Hobbit"


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 8:40am


Views: 923
Contents

Here's a scan of the Contents page, if it's any help?

http://s574.photobucket.com/...t=Sibleycontents.jpg


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 8:47am


Views: 904
Cool!

Yes, hopefully Jude Fisher will have got some exclusive new photos....Wink


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






Xanaseb
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 10:24am


Views: 909
Shelob, same here in the UK, beards, or at least a light beard (I have one myself), are getting more common :D //

 

--I'm a victim of Bifurcation--
__________________________________________

Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!
__________________________________________


Lacrimae Rerum
SnevaH Yerg

Oct 28 2012, 11:18am


Views: 854
This already happens

There are lots of fan edits, spoofs, remixes, and redubbed or recaptioned scenes. As far as I am aware there have been no legal actions taken.

But that is rather beside the point. A better question would be that of if Jackson had sold the rights to a piece of his work and you had bought them would you be allowed to adapt it, respond to it and interpret it in your own way. The answer, of course, would be yes.

LR


Fardragon
NahoR

Oct 28 2012, 11:36am


Views: 890
Yup, beards are in

Which just proves that fashion eventually catches up with me...

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Malveth
Llednevir

Oct 28 2012, 1:41pm


Views: 838
Missing my point

My point is not what I would have a right to do, but how Jackson would feel like about it. I don't think he'd be at all happy to see his artistic intentions warped into something completely different. Taking this into consideration, I would be far more respectful of anything I adapted that was not actually "public property", like folklore.

So please stop with the knee-jerk responses about PJ having "the rights"; I think I've made it clear that that's not what I'm talking about. As I said before, if the film companies ever broke up and the various properties were auctioned off, and some awful Canon Films like distributor got hold of LotRs or King Kong and butchered them up, Believe Me, Mr. Jackson would have something to say about it. This makes his bizarre wrecking-ball mentality toward Tolkien's works & clearly stated intentions truly puzzling to me. Do unto others, a wise man once said.

As for the rights, when they were sold, there was no way to make a film based on Tolkien's books, Tolkien thought it would come to nothing; it might have been "hasty" of him to ever part with them, but I don't think he could possibly have imagined the uses those rights would be put to, he certainly would not have approved of unhealthy junk-food tie ins, and a lot of plastic junk being sold under his name.

I keep hearing how these stories belong to "everyone" now. Apparently, they belong to everyone but the people who still read and care about them and are willing to defend them against the vandals of the film industry. I guess some "fans" are more equal than others in this brave new world.


Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 1:56pm


Views: 825
I think

your spot on in your assessment Malveth.


(This post was edited by Ataahua on Oct 28 2012, 6:35pm)


Malveth
Llednevir

Oct 28 2012, 2:11pm


Views: 845
Thanks...

It's good to know I'm not alone.


Estel78
Aessere Lot

Oct 28 2012, 2:12pm


Views: 833
PJ didn't butcher up anything.

LOTR was very close to the source material. Yes, they changed a bunch of stuff - was every of the changes necessary? No but changes are inevitable in a book to movie adaptation. It is still very recognizably Tolkien's story.


Lacrimae Rerum
SnevaH Yerg

Oct 28 2012, 2:13pm


Views: 816
I'm afraid I don't agree with almost any of this.

In my experience guessing what other people might think in certain circumstances, particularly people we do not know and have never met is very far away from a matter of surety.

I am also sorry if you perceive my post as "knee jerk" and that you feel that you you have made it clear that you are not discussing rights. I have re read all of your posts and can find no reference to the fact you are not discussing rights. Perhaps you could point me towards where you made this clear?

It is, as you see here, extremely difficult to guess what someone else feels, even when one is in conversation with them, let alone in a hypothetical situation based on no interaction whatsoever.

As it goes, were I to guess, I would tend to think that the issue of rights should not be ignored and would tend me towards the logic that if someone sells them, then complex thought the emotions would no doubt be, they would have accepted the notion that the work was passing into others' hands for the purpose of response, interpretation and adaptation.

Aside from Carpenter's late quote* I think Tolkien's letters amply refute the idea that he believed adaptations of his work were impossible (and indeed the somewhat ungentlemanly suggestion that he knowingly sold something which he believed to be worthless).

I'm afraid your distinctions between types of fans simply do not hold water. Again this may illustrate how difficult it is to guess how others feel or what they think.

LR

*Which was that it was Carpenter's thought that Tolkien had no real expectation that LOTR could be filmed successfully (though this was some thirty years after Tolkien's death)


(This post was edited by Lacrimae Rerum on Oct 28 2012, 2:19pm)


Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 2:21pm


Views: 825
But there are some who think he did

I'm not saying he "butchered" LOTR I thought overall it was done well.

The Hobbit on the other hand is a completely different story. taking a 309 page book adding what material from the appendices that involves the Hobbit (roughly only 12 pages at most) so say taking 321 pages and making a trilogy out of them? Sounds like Peter Jackson is going to be making up A LOT of his own story to do this.Unsure

1 their either gonna be so drawn out that they are boring full of detail yes but boring

2 either gonna have so much extra material that it is no longer the Hobbit
or

3 the hobbit will be there but scattered throughout some larger tale, in the process taking the material of the Hobbit out of its meant context hence changing the story

My vote is on option 3 at this point which to me is a disappointment since I think the tale of Bilbo is excellent the way it is by Tolkien... (granted they would need to merely tweak a few things but it would work just fine IMO)


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Oct 28 2012, 2:25pm)


Estel78
Aessere Lot

Oct 28 2012, 2:28pm


Views: 808
Comparing the number of pages is very misleading.

It has been pointed out multiple times, Hobbit is written very differently from LOTR, with much less detail. It doesn't mean not much is happening.

I would suggest seeing the movies before judging them.

Personally, i wouldn't want a movie that glosses over things and doesn't give characters the room to breath.


(This post was edited by Estel78 on Oct 28 2012, 2:33pm)


geordie
Aessere Lot

Oct 28 2012, 2:38pm


Views: 787
You're not alone -

"I keep hearing how these stories belong to "everyone" now. Apparently, they belong to everyone but the people who still read and care about them and are willing to defend them against the vandals of the film industry. I guess some "fans" are more equal than others in this brave new world."

- Well said.

.



Malveth
Llednevir

Oct 28 2012, 2:40pm


Views: 801
To me it's about...

...Respect.

Bird crap in Radagast's beard, giant bunny rabbits pulling sleighs, completely fabricated characters, turning lightly comical aspects into completely over-the-top comedy (ax-heads in skulls, eating flowers etc.) so on and so on.

None of this shows respect for the book. If it is so respected by Mr. Jackson, why change it all? If the book was so unsuitable for filming, why bother "adapting" it?

I think we all know the answer...

I don't think I'm being obscure. If Jackson underwent the same experience he would be howling in public about how his films were being changed and ruined without any power to stop it.

But Tolkien is safely dead. Mr. Jackson doesn't have to worry about his opinion or remarks. In short, Tolkien is not here to defend himself. Very nice for Mr. Jackson! Some of us feel that he should be reminded of the author's intentions, but as we're all a bunch of reactionary cranks & spoil-sports, there's always the Fan Police to get us to move along quietly with no protest.

"I feel very unhappy about Z[immerman's]...complete disrespect for the original (it seems willfully wrong without discernible technical reasons at nearly every point). But I need, and shall soon need very much indeed, money."
Jrr Toklien Letter 207

"I would ask them to make an effort of imagination sufficient to understand the irritation (and on occasion the resentment) of an author, who finds, increasingly as he proceeds, his work treated as it would seem carelessly in general, in places recklessly, and with no evident signs of any appreciation what it is all about...

"I do earnestly hope that in the assignment of actual speeches to the characters they will be represented as I have presented them; in style and sentiment. I should resent perversion of the characters (and do resent it...) even more than the spoiling of the plot and scenery."
Jrr Tolkien, Letter 210

I think his latest remarks on the subject were along the lines of "my works are unsuitable for dramatization in any form".

But I'll stop here, and agree to disagree, since I don't fancy getting banned for arguing, and this is a thread about the Sibley companion book, not the film itself.


(This post was edited by Malveth on Oct 28 2012, 2:41pm)


Lacrimae Rerum
SnevaH Yerg

Oct 28 2012, 2:54pm


Views: 897
Well I certainly would characterise you as "a bunch of reactionary cranks"

And I'm sure no one reading your posts, or the posts of others, would be thinking of "crank" or "spoil-sport" or anything of the sort.

I simply tend to disagree that (a) we can guess how Jackson would react to whatever hypothetical situation you have in mind and (b) that this would tell us anything very useful. My own guess would be that were he to sell the rights to someone else, he would probably be unsurprised to find them adapting the work in their own way, but it is just a guess.

Large numbers of authors sell the rights to their works. Some are happy with the products, some are not, some enjoy less literal adaptations and some do not etc. There isn't really any consistent experience, as far as I can see.

Similarly you seem to feel that more literal adaptations are, per se, more "respectful". I tend not to agree to agree with this either (though I also feel this idea of defence of "respect" is problematic)

LR

PS And I'm afraid that isn't Tolkien's quote or the context in which the quote I think you are referring to was proffered.


Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 2:56pm


Views: 896
Again I agree with your assessment Malveth

but people will claim we don't know Tolkien's intent with those letters even though they seem pretty cut and dry to me Wink


grammaboodawg
Latrommi


Oct 28 2012, 3:23pm


Views: 875
I've had it pre-ordered

so I'm SO ANXIOUS to get my hands on it!!! *twitch*



sample

I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.



TORn's Observations Lists
Unused Scenes



Lacrimae Rerum
SnevaH Yerg

Oct 28 2012, 3:23pm


Views: 885
"Wouldn't" there in the title, apologies. Typo- as I hope is evident from the rest of the post.

 


Elenorflower
Rodnog


Oct 28 2012, 3:26pm


Views: 886
yes I am terrifying

if I dont get my double espresso of a morning. Mad Necromancers have nowt on my infinite grumpyness.


Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 3:33pm


Views: 885
Sounds like my wife...

I don't even attempt to talk to her in the morning until she is on her 3rd cup of coffee...Wink that's why after almost 20 years I still have all my appendages intact. Never bother a women who needs coffee in the morning until SHE is ready... LOL


Elenorflower
Rodnog


Oct 28 2012, 3:35pm


Views: 874
I agree with you LR

and I would add that PJ is fully entitled to use artistic licence, when and how he chooses. An adaptation is just that, all directors have their own take on how they want their film to look, no director in my opinion would give us a Hobbit film without these personal touches.


Macfeast
NahoR


Oct 28 2012, 3:41pm


Views: 858
So there's definitely going to be a food-fight?

Not a fan of that idea. As for Bifur, I will say that I'm delighted at the idea of him being a toy-maker, and leave it at that.


imin
Ronilav


Oct 28 2012, 3:45pm


Views: 868
Food fight

Hmm thats another idea that sounds bad, again i will wait to see how it plays out on screen but i think most can imagine what it would look like.

I have the feeling i will really like certain things of these movies and others feel were done for humour but came off badly/for a childs sense of humour/PJ's humour - which essentially is not the same as mine, though i can be childish from time to time lol.


Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 3:46pm


Views: 877
Jackson's view...


Quote
"I'm aware of the the expectations but I never make movies for other people. I never have and I never will. I'm making The Hobbit for me. I have to. This will be The Hobbit I want to see and I just have to hope other people will want to see it, too."



"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






(This post was edited by Eleniel on Oct 28 2012, 3:46pm)


imin
Ronilav


Oct 28 2012, 3:53pm


Views: 839
I think that's the only way they can be made

unless you want to make a film by opinion poll, which i think would suck.

The problem only comes when PJ's vision is different to ones own vision. On things like scenery and costumes i agree most the time. For example i love the look of Beorns Hall. For me i differ in my sense of humour and would prefer the films to be targeted at an older audience - purely for the selfish reason that i am older now than when i saw lotr, lol.


Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 3:54pm


Views: 862
But to add so much outside the actual story

they should at least warn those expecting the Hobbit by saying "BASED ON", which at this point is all that it is. Based on the Hobbit, because we are not getting the tale of the hobbit the way it was written by Tolkien. We aren't even getting an interpretation close to Tolkien's IMO...They have altered characters and added several things NOT in the original story such as alternate plots and characters, some totally made up and nowhere in ANY of Tolkien's writings. Which IMO changes the context of Bilbo's journey as well as changing outcomes and events in characters that were in the book. So I think saying the films of the Hobbit are "based on" the book in plain black and white writing is not such a bad thing. At least its a more Honest thing to say instead of calling it the Hobbit.

Quote

"I'm aware of the the expectations but I never make movies for other people. I never have and I never will. I'm making The Hobbit for me. I have to. This will be The Hobbit I want to see and I just have to hope other people will want to see it, too."

I mean if this is Jackson's real feelings I don't see where he should have a problem putting "based on the Hobbit" in his title or somewhere associated with his film. People would still see it so whats it harm nothing but like I said it is more honest.Angelic


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Oct 28 2012, 3:58pm)


imin
Ronilav


Oct 28 2012, 4:01pm


Views: 830
That is how i have been thinking of it for a while now

Its no big deal to me to think its gone from an adaptation to based on. As stupid as it sounds it makes it easier to view this as PJ's film rather than Tolkien's book being changed into a film. In my mind the book and the film are now totally seperate entities. Others may have thought like this from the moment the film was announced i dont know but with the changes and things i feel its more based on than adapted.

This is not to be seen as a negative in terms of how i feel the movie will be. The movie could be awesome with the new things going on, e.g. dol guldur, i doubt they will be bad in many ways other than - not from the book.

Maybe just try and think like that - its based on rather than adapted and you will not care so much either about the changes? It means you can be excited for the film but not worried lol


Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 4:07pm


Views: 845
Authorial control...


In Reply To

Large numbers of authors sell the rights to their works. Some are happy with the products, some are not, some enjoy less literal adaptations and some do not etc. There isn't really any consistent experience, as far as I can see.



Exactly...I was amazed, having loved Ken Follett's two novels The Pillars of the Earth" and "World Without End", to discover that Follett was heavily involved with the mini-series adaptation of the first book which, IMO, was a complete travesty of the novel, but he appeared to be quite happy with the production.

Famously JK Rowling exerted authorial control over the HP movies, but fans still disagree about the success of some in terms of adaptation. We can all guess which stance Tolkien would have taken, had he still been with us...but there is a chance we might have been surprised...Wink


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 4:08pm


Views: 821
Thats exactly how I view it

I plan on enjoying Peter Jackson's film even though they aren't even close to Tolkien's vision. Because to me thats all they are is "Based on" it quit being an adaptation long ago.

The Bottom line of an adaptation IMO is when you put out something with a certain name on it, it is expected that when you pick up the book with the same name on it you get that story. Not pick up the book just to get something you consider sub par to the film, or vastly different from the film. IMO a film makers job is to bring the text of the book to life not rewrite the book . Which is what it seems like we are getting IMO


Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 4:09pm


Views: 818
Theres also a chance we wouldn't be

but if Tolkien were involved then we could at least say he had creative control.Smile I could have lived with that Wink


Elenorflower
Rodnog


Oct 28 2012, 4:12pm


Views: 858
they may be adding things outside the actual story, BUT

the actual story IS still there, just under a few frilly layers of extra stuff, which is ok, as its only artistic licence and doesnt actually change essentially Bilbos Quest.
The important thing is this, that Bilbo can tell his tale, and go through his inner and outer journey. This WILL happen in the film. There will be however lots of added backstory and lots of added frilly nonesense like axes in heads, which is window dressing and can be ignored if you so wish. I have absolutely NO doubt that there will be the kernel of Bilbos story WITHIN the greater story bit like the Russian doll effect. All the window dressing is not worth getting irate over IMO.

I am on my fourth espresso so you are safe from my wrath today Sinister. Cool


(This post was edited by Elenorflower on Oct 28 2012, 4:17pm)


Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 4:25pm


Views: 837
I'm not irate

trust me I'm just debating. but I think altering the context of the ring is a major wrong thing to do and will alter more outcomes than it helps keep the same as will making Sauron the main bad guy. Really we see all we need to know about him in LOTR and IMO that's the way they should have left it. I think the whole Azog being Thorin's nemesis is load of garbage since Azog was supposed to be killed by Dain, head cut off and put on a stick outside moria , aint no coming back. Bolg I could buy being Thorin's nemesis better than his role of the "Torturer of DolGuldur" at least that would fit with Tolkien's creation...

I really don't mind window dressing, I think its good. What I mind is outright change of the text for something completely made up. I would have no problem with the making scenes that Tolkien wrote more film worthy that would be a very good thing. Simply to just make up material to tell a story that isn't what Tolkien's story was about is changing things a bit too much for my tastes. I still say its only based on and loosely at that from some of what we have seen.Mad


Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 4:30pm


Views: 844
Letting go...

Yeah, I think there comes a point where you have to accept that indeed it will no longer be Tolkien's Hobbit but "The Hobbit for the masses"...for want of a better description.

Adapting M-e appears to have evolved into blockbuster, formulaic entertainment, designed to appeal to the majority audience. And it will be a magnificent, commercial success - but of course, the thing that makes it a cut above most run-of-the mill movies, capturing the hearts and imagination particularly of first-time viewers, is undoubtedly the magic of Tolkien's storytelling, and I do agree and sympathize with those who bemoan the fact that Jackson has this need to dress up and exaggerate the simple beauty of the original material, when he got some much right with LotR when he "trusted Tolkien."


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 4:39pm


Views: 814
What bothers me about the way its presented though

is they can't even have the decency to tell us the film going audience the truth. But then they wouldn't sell as many tickets now would they?Crazy

They should just tell us openly and honestly they don't think what Tolkien wrote is good enough to present as a movie to the masses the way he wrote it. Then just tell us honestly they are including things they want to see in the films because they think they wrote something better, instead of this BS about in the "spirit of Tolkien" if the spirit of Tolkien were in it it would follow the book a bit more closely. sure some embellishments but not outright changes especially to characters and plot developments.Angelic

So again I see no reason where putting the Phrase "based on" somewhere associated with the film or in the title should be a problem other than maybe in Warner Bros and Peter Jackson's talking purses, but if that's all that matters I guess they really don't care about the "spirit of Tolkien" as much as they care about the almighty dollarUnsure


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Oct 28 2012, 4:43pm)


Lacrimae Rerum
SnevaH Yerg

Oct 28 2012, 4:48pm


Views: 839
Quite so. The Death of the Author seems to apply across media

Even if they are involved.

Tolkien's statements about adaptations in his letters are interesting. He seems to recognise the necessity of liberties to be taken by adaptors but seems unable to fully acclimatise himself to many of the individual liberties or to concieve of a better solution, similarly to want adaptations, if primarily for the money, and also to wish to avoid them - as one would imagine a very mixed and conflicted set of thoughts an emotions.

His own suggestion was that of a "reading mime" which I think displays something of the gulf between the author and the adaptor.

LR


DanielLB
Latrommi


Oct 28 2012, 4:55pm


Views: 834
I'll try my hardest to hand out spoilers

The problem is ... I'm picking up the books on the same day as moving house ... and I'm internet-less until Mid-November.

Do people accept smoke signals? One black cloud for Gandriel love scene confirmation, 2 black clouds for confirmation of the talking purse, and 3 black clouds for creepy Bilbo creeping me out. Wink

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!



Lacrimae Rerum
SnevaH Yerg

Oct 28 2012, 4:59pm


Views: 825
I don't think this level of literalness is all that common.

Certainly the experience of the millions of folks who enjoyed LOTR would offer a counter example.

If not sure what people expect from an adaptation of a text other than a film which is based on the book. The film cannot be the book so it must be based on it. As you say yourself you expect some things to be more similar and some more different - there isn't an absolute.

Simply, it seems you would prefer a hypothetical film which is more literal. There is nothing wrong with that but equally there is nothing wrong with feeling that non literal adaptation is an equally valid option.

LR


Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 5:17pm


Views: 810
Peter Jackson and his crew

are making up a big majority of these films which are "based" on vague notes of Tolkien's, not stories of his or complex ideas of his, they are based on basic vague notes. I still say an adaptation should bring the text of the book to life and not be made up content... merely embellishments on existing content, which if you have to write more than a certain percentage its no longer the original material but only based on it.

Whats wrong with them being honest and saying they are making alot of this stuff up?


Quote
There is nothing wrong with that but equally there is nothing wrong with feeling that non literal adaptation is an equally valid option.

So then you can openly admit there is no harm or reason they shouldn't be able to put "based on" somewhere associated with the films. Like I said it would at least be honest

Thing is this isn't about LOTR its about the Hobbit which from what we have seen so far is a totally different animal so what was done with LOTR does not apply but they at least kept it a bit closer to the source material for LOTR than they are the Hobbit from what I see


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Oct 28 2012, 5:19pm)


AinurOlorin
Nevle-flah


Oct 28 2012, 5:39pm


Views: 818
I am still convinced this has to be a flashback to Old Took's parties. I love the picture

as with the other party pictures, and I still strongly suspect that Gandalf's choosing of Bilbo and his knowledge of him will be conveyed to the audience through at least one brief flashback of Bilbo's childhood. Unfinished Tales explicitly recounts that it was then that the Wizard first took note of Bilbo, and while those rights are off limits to the film makers, it is implicitly acknowledged in The Hobbit proper strongly enough that they can still use the information.

In Reply To
I don't know why there's a party in the Hobbit...but I'm glad to see Gandalf dancing with hobbits again! Smile


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Lacrimae Rerum
SnevaH Yerg

Oct 28 2012, 5:42pm


Views: 884
Well you seem to have insights I do not.

A "big majority" - so more than 50%, 60%, 70% will be material other than the journey of Bilbo and the dwarves? Well anything is posisble but I haven't formed that impression myself.

I'm not sure what "vague notes" you are referring to?

I don't have any issue with the term "based on" but then I don't think this means to me what it means to you. Any adaptation of a text is based on the text. You seem to have some additional definition in mind.

Again you seem to feel that how things "seem" to you equates to knowledge, proportions and percentages which are worth discussing. I tend to think that they are "made up" and, in your terms. "based on" reality. We can guess if we like, but it's no more than a guess.

LR


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Ronilav

Oct 28 2012, 6:12pm


Views: 865
"Based on" is implied by the title

The movie is called "The Hobbit: Unexpected Journey". Tolkien never wrote any such thing. Thus, the fact that it is "based on" but not directly adapting, "The Hobbit" is implied.

I would have rather had a straight adaptation of the book too, but I'm happy to make the best of what we are getting. Some of it might even be pretty good!

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 6:15pm


Views: 868
Like I said

I see an adaptation as bringing the text of the story to life, what I see with Peter Jackson's version of the Hobbit is something, that while it may include the Hobbit somewhere within it. With the inclusion of Sauron and making the ring more than just a burglers tool it will be IMO out of context with the original story. The original tale while it is touched upon is NOT about Sauron or the ring or the fate of middle earth. All made up plot devices brought into the Hobbit by Jackson. Or at least my copy of that book has none of that.Angelic

Radagast all material made up by Jackson since he wasn't in the Hobbit and Tolkien never mentioned what he and Gandalf did during this time (made up content)
Nazgul in tombs by the Dundain, from my understanding never happened in Tolkien (hmmm more made up content)
Bolg being the "Torturer of DolGuldur" while Bolg was in the Hobbit his involvement with DolGuldur is not (MORE made up content)
DolGuldur subplot while I think its interesting still there are only a couple paragraphs Jackson can use from the appendices that coincide with the Hobbit so the whole story is MADE UP CONTENT "based" on a couple paragraphs
Azog being Thorin's nemesis (came directly from an interview with Armitage) To my knowledge Bolg was the Goblin Thorin had to deal with and Azog was long dead killed many years before the dwarves quest by Dain, beheaded and his head put on a stake with the small purse of money in his mouth outside Moria to warn other goblns . which is told in appendix A So him being anywhere outside that situation is Made up content
Dwarven back stories well here is the largest section of the appendices that has anything whatsoever to do with the Hobbit but its only 8 and 1/2 pages not really enough to expand into a big chunk of film IMO
That stuff isn't adapted from the book or the appendix its made up content not in the story of the hobbit but I will say it is "based on" parts of the appendix whether it is according to Tolkien or not.

seems some people need to try and justify these sections of made up content somehow instead of just admitting they are fabrications of Peter Jackson's "based on" the appendices which have no real details in them. only bits and pieces from what I read. That and only about 12 pages at most are related to the Hobbit in any way shape or form


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Oct 28 2012, 6:18pm)


tolktolk
Neirol

Oct 28 2012, 6:23pm


Views: 845
Enjoying?

So after spending months expending thousands of words ranting, raving and railing against Peter Jackson and the "sheep" who do not share your vision, you are planning to enjoy the film?

There's nowt as strange as folk.


AinurOlorin
Nevle-flah


Oct 28 2012, 6:26pm


Views: 841
This is pretty much my sentiment. I do not doubt I will have plenty to. . . they get after you for naughty words on here. . to

Bark and complain about. And where I feel it is called for, bark and complain I shall. But, overall, I am very happy the movie is at least being made, and I feel pretty strongly that I will, on the whole, love it much more than I hate what is wrong with it, even when I am on a tirade blasting the wrongs.

In Reply To
The movie is called "The Hobbit: Unexpected Journey". Tolkien never wrote any such thing. Thus, the fact that it is "based on" but not directly adapting, "The Hobbit" is implied.

I would have rather had a straight adaptation of the book too, but I'm happy to make the best of what we are getting. Some of it might even be pretty good!


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Lacrimae Rerum
SnevaH Yerg

Oct 28 2012, 6:30pm


Views: 820
Which you feel will be a "big majority" of the films? I tend to disagree.

 


Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 6:32pm


Views: 839
and why id that so hard to believe?

These films are NOT nor ever will be the Hobbit as far as I am concerned. They are merely "Based on" the Hobbit. THAT is how I will enjoy these films because contrary to what people want to believe that is the truth. There is already too much fan fiction made up content being shoved into these films to be considered anything else. unless your one of those who believe an adaptation is an original tale based on a book but not following its plot line or structure which is what we are getting.


Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 6:33pm


Views: 837
we can agree to disagree

they can only make so much out of 309 pages no matter how you look at itAngelic


Lacrimae Rerum
SnevaH Yerg

Oct 28 2012, 6:51pm


Views: 820
Well I look at it from the perspective

Of having done a fair amount of analysis of textual word count to film adaptation duration (whilst word count is far from perfect, page count is an even poorer measure as it fails to take account font size, layout, margins, page size etc).

Or we could just go off what we reckon.

LR

Also the only word we have recently on the Dol Guldur sub plot, which encompasses most of the additions you list above, is that a chunk of it has already been moved out of the first film into the second. I will be intrigued to see how it tots up to your 60 / 70% plus.


Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 7:01pm


Views: 802
with all the dwarven backstory

and liberties Peter Jackson is taking, I would almost be willing to bet money on there will be at most a 40/60 split in favor of Jackson's made up content to what Tolkien actually wrote in the films... Actually i have a friend who is just as faithful to PJ as you are LR and we have a 20 dollar bet riding on Tolkien's content and Peter Jackson's enhancements and which will make up most of the films. Can't wait to collect that 20 bucksWink
And considering Jackson is probably changing most of the dialogue or altering it (from what we have seen already in the trailer) there's no way to tell from the words either.


Lacrimae Rerum
SnevaH Yerg

Oct 28 2012, 7:23pm


Views: 783
So 96 minutes or more

Of dwarven history and the dol guldur plot (outside of the Thrain visit of course) in the first film?

Well anything is possible....

LR


AinurOlorin
Nevle-flah


Oct 28 2012, 7:29pm


Views: 779
The things aren't mutually exclusive.

In reality, as with most things, there are aspects that one likes and aspects that one dislikes, and it is the ratio and intensity of one to the other that will decide whether one views the films positively as a whole. There may be several attributes which one hates and rants about, but if the majority is made up of attributes one liked or love, one will still enjoy the work, even while cringing at certain parts.

In Reply To
So after spending months expending thousands of words ranting, raving and railing against Peter Jackson and the "sheep" who do not share your vision, you are planning to enjoy the film?

There's nowt as strange as folk.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by Altaira on Oct 28 2012, 7:39pm)


Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 7:33pm


Views: 777
Thank you AO //

 


jtarkey
NahoR


Oct 28 2012, 7:41pm


Views: 770
I know I use this movie a lot as an example but...

Jurassic Park is a groundbreaking film that didn't really resemble the book it was based on at all. It is possible to make a good movie that strays from the book. I think trying to prove how faithful these films will be is beating a dead horse.

We haven't seen them but, we KNOW there will be a lot of extra material. The quality of that material is yet to be seen. What's important to me is that these are good movies in their own right. I'm not saying the book doesn't matter, but don't we all know by this point that we aren't getting a very faithful adaptation?

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Oct 28 2012, 8:00pm


Views: 761
You're certainly not alone

I generally disliked the LOTR films, for a whole host of reasons.

However, I am hoping (perhaps against hope) that the Hobbit films will be more enjoyable.

I love Tolkien, and I love film, so I cannot let go of the hope of a great film based on Tolkien's material.

Fingers are crossed.


Estel78
Aessere Lot

Oct 28 2012, 8:01pm


Views: 754
I can only speak for myself but

i don't need to justify anything. Honestly, i don't care whether PJ follows the book slavishly, i only want a good movie. That's all. Well, that's not entirely true, i actually want him to not follow the book slavishly, because i don't consider the book that great, to be honest, i'm not 12 anymore. Don't shoot me, it's charming but i wish it had more depth and be a little bit more serious.

I can understand people getting upset by the axe in the head but i don't understand people getting upset by the movie showing Gandalf with young boy Bilbo, because it is not in the book, or some changed dialog. I have no sympathy whatsoever for people with such extremist views.


In Reply To
seems some people need to try and justify these sections of made up content somehow instead of just admitting they are fabrications of Peter Jackson's "based on" the appendices which have no real details in them. only bits and pieces from what I read. That and only about 12 pages at most are related to the Hobbit in any way shape or form



(This post was edited by Estel78 on Oct 28 2012, 8:04pm)


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Oct 28 2012, 8:02pm


Views: 774
You can enjoy something

And still be greatly disappointed that it didn't live up to it's great potential.

The LOTR and Hobbit films are based on timeless classics, and I personally, wish the films could be called that as well. Perhaps the Hobbit will win me over?


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Oct 28 2012, 8:05pm


Views: 760
A food fight in Rivendell?

Really?

This batch of interviews seems to reveal so much idiocy, that my high point of anticipation for these films is almost completely dead and gone.

This is the sound of expectations being lowered.


GothmogTheBalrog
Llednevir


Oct 28 2012, 8:20pm


Views: 748
Eh.

If a movie is really unlike the book, I just pretend it's an alternate universe. Works for me.

"It was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and go before it." ~FotR


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Oct 28 2012, 8:32pm


Views: 727
Do you not see

The irony in the following statement:


Quote
I have no sympathy whatsoever for people with such extremist views.


Wink


Malveth
Llednevir

Oct 28 2012, 8:39pm


Views: 756
Yes...

Tolkien was explicit. I think he mentions "sillification" somewhere as well (did he coin the word? It's wonderful).

I'm not just responding to TH in a vacuum. I saw TLOTRs. At the time I was okay-ish with them but the honest truth is they did zero for me and I never watch them, there are so many other films that provide that kind of "buzz" for me, and Tolkien's words are more than sufficient to satisfy my desire for Middle Earth.

I was originally going to give PJ the benefit of the doubt. Then I saw "TinTin". It not only represented the worst of Spielberg it also represented the worst impulses of PJ. I was appalled by it. I've rarely seen a film so aggressively opposed to the tone and qualities of the source material. Now with all the details of TH emerging, I am less inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. I wonder why he doesn't acquire an original script or write his own story. Food-fighting, flower-eating dwarfs? Go right ahead. Giant bunnies pulling sleighs through forests (I don't even see how that's physically possible, with things like roots and stones, but...) go right ahead. Elf-girl warriors? By all means, it's *your* story, do whatever you want!

But how does this relate to what Tolkien wrote, I must ask?

There's a real schizo quality to all of this. "We love the Hobbit, but we're changing it all over the place and adding tons of stuff that completely violates the authors own views on fantasy and his own work." And let us be frank: Tolkien was a brilliant author who slaved for decades and decades to compose, revise, and present his corpus to the world. Jackson & his writers have yet to create anything original not attached to a previously created work that people care about, apart from a comparatively tiny PJ fan community. A little humility is in order.


GothmogTheBalrog
Llednevir


Oct 28 2012, 8:45pm


Views: 718
Honestly?

Food-fighting and flower-eating seems to me like things these Dwarves would do. The sled is over the top. I'll definitely give you that. But what's wrong with Tauriel? Elves aren't human. How do you know they wouldn't have female warriors?

"It was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and go before it." ~FotR


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Ronilav

Oct 28 2012, 8:46pm


Views: 716
If you think that The Hobbit doesn't have very much depth

You simply aren't paying attention. There are so many intricate levels buried underneath the facade of a simple children's tale.

I do agree with you on this, however:


Quote

I can understand people getting upset by the axe in the head but i don't understand people getting upset by the movie showing Gandalf with young boy Bilbo, because it is not in the book



Showing Gandalf with young Bilbo (if that even happens, which I am not convinced of yet from what I have seen), is a perfect example of using film to show, not tell. If that appears and helps demonstrate why Gandalf chooses Bilbo to go on the quest (and it is done well), I will be thrilled. I think that is a perfect example of good adaptation, and one that shows the advantage of having more time to tell the story in.


'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Malveth
Llednevir

Oct 28 2012, 8:53pm


Views: 717
Honestly...

The craziest thing the Dwarves do is sing a sing about breaking Bilbo's crockery:

"And of course they did none of these dreadful things, and everything was cleaned and put away safe as quick as lightning, while the hobbit was turning round and round in the middle of the kitchen trying to see what they were doing. Then they went back, and found Thorin with his feet on the fender smoking a pipe."

I assure you, there is no female elf warrior anywhere in the Hobbit. If the story you want to tell requires one, then you have obviously selected the wrong story to film. I would have advised Jackson & Co. to write their own story, and put in a whole army of elf warrior girls, since that is what they wish to write about.


jtarkey
NahoR


Oct 28 2012, 8:55pm


Views: 736
I think we as Tolkien fans are a little spoiled...

Even though everyone is entitled to their own opinion, LOTR was an amazing achievement in cinematic history. It is certainly considered by the majority of the film community as a modern classic. I would have to agree. Is there any book to film adaptation that is more widely praised? You could argue that there are, but I feel there aren't.

I know some people think that PJ slaughtered Tolkien, but I think we could be a little more grateful. I'm a film buff so to speak, and I am still blown away by the depth and care that was put into LOTR.

People tend to forget that there were no films like these before they came out. In the years that followed we, as an audience, have been battered with spectacle and fantasy. Special effects keep getting better and better so we're used to it now, but i still remember being floored when I watched FOTR for the first time.

It will take a misstep of George Lucas like proportions to mess these films up as films. While it is entirely possible, I have a hard time thinking its likely especially when I haven't seen the films yet.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 9:04pm


Views: 1002
I have no problem with Tauriel

as long as she is a character that does not alter the events of Bilbo's journey. Now if she is sympathetic to the dwarves and helps free them I think I will puke right in the theater. Or if she helps Bilbo dispatch the spiders I would be rather upset since that stuff IMO is unnecessary and just not needed. I mean its no secret Boyens wrote her in because they felt the Hobbit needed a strong female presence, well Tolkien didn't need her, so I feel the films don't need her, but in this PC society I guess there are concessions to be made. So I have no issue with her as long as she is something that adds to the story instead of changing it. I think the captain of the guard, which is who she is taking the place of, should still get drunk and pass out making way from Bilbo to get the keys and free the dwarves and nothing more with them.


Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Oct 28 2012, 9:08pm


Views: 986
nothing says these aren't going to be Peter Jackson's Star Wars...episode 1, 2, and 3

Lucas didn't write those to be disasters either, but look how they are perceived in the Star Wars community. Every die hard fan I know personally thinks they are the worst films ever. or the get 5 thumbs down out of 6 and number 6 is trying to be optimistic Smile


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Oct 28 2012, 9:09pm)


Malveth
Llednevir

Oct 28 2012, 9:10pm


Views: 964
LOL!!

Oh man, talk abt "PC", no *way* are they letting their precious Tauriel get drunk and pass out. Not a "positive role model" for tween-aged girls. She'll be as pure as driven snow, smart as a whip, and able to "kick orc butt" at the drop of a feather. I'm sure she'll get at least a hint of weepy romance as well.

Again, "Tauriel", a coming of age fantasy epic about an elf warrior, sounds like a splendid movie for Jackson & Co. to make, why didn't they make it? Because Tauriel will pale in comparison to Tolkien's characters, she's there to fill up a quota and help marketing, and to help Boyens feel comfy in Tolkien's world. With effort, sure, they could make a very original fantasy picture about a girl's coming of age, or a female warrior leading an army, I'm not sure high fantasy has done that on the screen yet. But I don't see where she comes into Tolkien's story at all.


(This post was edited by Malveth on Oct 28 2012, 9:11pm)


Malveth
Llednevir

Oct 28 2012, 9:15pm


Views: 947
You see...

I had no problem at all with the SW sequels or the animated series. It's his world, he organized those elements and determined what could and could not happen there. So I was never upset that he went off on a tangent. And I think, as a visual artist, he's the best in the world right now, but like Tolkien's text, it takes an enormous amount of effort to get past the surface and really see what he's doing; but it's brilliant. As a dramatist....I plead the fifth!

TH, on the other hand...we already know what is supposed to happen.


jtarkey
NahoR


Oct 28 2012, 9:18pm


Views: 940
That's why i said it is possible

Smile

However, I don't think PJ is even capable of writing dialogue that is THAT bad. Those prequels are, IMO, laughably terrible in almost every aspect of film making. Everything from the story, to the sets, to the script, to the characters. It was just awful.

I think I can safely say that I can pre-judge these films to be better than that, simply because of the amount of time and care taken into making them.

Of course, they could be worseWink. Haven't seen them yet, so I don't know. Simple as that.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


Lacrimae Rerum
SnevaH Yerg

Oct 28 2012, 9:21pm


Views: 940
A book has many advantages

As the reader gets to fill in the white spaces and plat the fog into the people they choose. A film has to make those choices for us. For a film we have the option of showing no women or women only as silent background characters.
To do either of these, would make much more of an issue of sex (which I do not believe was an issue for Tolkien) than creating a (marginally) less unusual gender balance for a film of this nature.

If a positive role model crops up as a result - how wonderful.

LR


Malveth
Llednevir

Oct 28 2012, 10:03pm


Views: 928
Why do you...

...say this?

"For a film we have the option of showing no women or women only as silent background characters."

Is this every film or only this one?

Again, if you are intending to make a film about a character you have invented out of a desire to tell a story about that character, why not simply tell that story, why import your character into a completely unrelated one?

Generations of non-males have loved this book, and there has been little or no complaint that it lacks anything at all. But Tauriel is only a symptom, not the sickness itself.


Lacrimae Rerum
SnevaH Yerg

Oct 28 2012, 10:12pm


Views: 905
This film!

As there are no female speaking characters in the text. I'm not sure if you follow the argument but I'm not sure where it isn't making sense.

If you eliminate Tauriel (and indeed Galadriel) then you seem to imply there would be another option outside not showing women or having them as background extras? I'm not sure what this would be (other than re-sexing one of the existing characters- but I suspect that is not your thought)

LR


Malveth
Llednevir

Oct 28 2012, 10:27pm


Views: 897
Yes, but why...

Do we need a female character?

"If you eliminate Tauriel (and indeed Galadriel) then you seem to imply there would be another option outside not showing women or having them as background extras? I'm not sure what this would be (other than re-sexing one of the existing characters- but I suspect that is not your thought)."

If Jackson & Co. are so concerned about portraying female characters, why choose to adapt a book that has exactly no female characters? I'm sure you can see the perversity of this.

I think I am going to make a film. It will be called "Jack The Ripper". It will be set in Victorian London. But Jack will kill no one. Why? Because some of the audience might find that offensive and also I want to make a film about a doctor. So in my film, Jack will be a doctor, a kindly, wise, good doctor. That makes sense doesn't it? I'm sure it will be enjoyed as a film, because films are special and different from all other storytelling mediums, and it would be oh-so-very boring if I simply retold the Ripper story!

Next I am going to adapt "Jane Eyre" as a male-bonding war movie. There had to be war going on *somewhere* in the world, I'll just "elaborate" on that part of the "story".

I'll be a "genius" like PJ before you know it!!


Lacrimae Rerum
SnevaH Yerg

Oct 28 2012, 10:47pm


Views: 874
What I am arguing is that the

Choice to absent all women from a trilogy of films (or to portray them as silent extras) is also a choice. In a film such choices are made for all viewers (as opposed to the latitude given the the reader of the text to make individual choices of imagination)

My contention would be that absenting women from three such films places "sex" as much more of an issue for the audience than it is in the text, wheras offering a (still slim) gender balance makes it much less of an issue for the majority of viewers.

Of course I may be wrong and it may be that the general audience would not give a moments thought to seven and a half hours of film which travels across cultures and half a world but, by genuine coincidence, never encounters a female. But I suspect it would create a sense of oddity for many - an oddity which is not designed in the text, and could therefore be happily avoided.

LR


AinurOlorin
Nevle-flah


Oct 29 2012, 3:41am


Views: 837
No problem. I understand. lol


In Reply To


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Nevle-flah


Oct 29 2012, 3:53am


Views: 875
Like and yet unlike. I agree, except where I don't.

On the one hand, I think, when deciding whether to adhere more closely to the actual story, or to the particular tastes of a subset of viewers who read the story decades ago and want it to have changed and intensified just because they may have done so, I would rather one stick to the source.

On the subject of young Bilbo. I actually don't see that as a problem at all. I rather like it. It is not contradictory, in so much as the book really does tell you all the essentials: that Gandalf was friends with Bilbo's grandfather, and indeed had a history of taking more adventurous hobbits, particularly members of the Took clan, off on adventures that spanned many generations of Hobbit and Shire history. It is stated that he knew Bilbo as a child, and that Bilbo was very fond of the Wizard's tales, and minor feats of magic, and his enchanted fireworks etc. etc. So I think, on the whole, this is not only an easily justified inclusion, it is one that really does not require much in the way of justification.

There may be other alterations which are not so plausible, which do not agree with the text, and which not only beg some justification, but may indeed be unjustifiable, beyond the rather loaded perameters of "whoever is directing/producing the movie can do whatever they please," which is a dreadfully poor standard of measurement indeed. Scenes of Gandalf and a young Bilbo, however, don't fall into that category. The text supports it rather explicitly.

In Reply To
i don't need to justify anything. Honestly, i don't care whether PJ follows the book slavishly, i only want a good movie. That's all. Well, that's not entirely true, i actually want him to not follow the book slavishly, because i don't consider the book that great, to be honest, i'm not 12 anymore. Don't shoot me, it's charming but i wish it had more depth and be a little bit more serious.

I can understand people getting upset by the axe in the head but i don't understand people getting upset by the movie showing Gandalf with young boy Bilbo, because it is not in the book, or some changed dialog. I have no sympathy whatsoever for people with such extremist views.


In Reply To
seems some people need to try and justify these sections of made up content somehow instead of just admitting they are fabrications of Peter Jackson's "based on" the appendices which have no real details in them. only bits and pieces from what I read. That and only about 12 pages at most are related to the Hobbit in any way shape or form



"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Oct 29 2012, 3:54am)


AinurOlorin
Nevle-flah


Oct 29 2012, 4:10am


Views: 852
Entirely agreed about this. One can dislike certain choices he made, but unless

you are going to take the Cathy Bates route of Stephen King's Misery, it is hard to tell him what he shouldn't do with his story. And, to be fair, he didn't do any of the taboo and appalling things which some creators attempt, i.e. eggregiously re-writing the very rules and principles of their secondary universe, or killing off favourite characters as a personal power trip etc.

The standard is very different for a writer adaptaing an existing work, and especially a classic, than for a writer furthering his or her own tale.

In Reply To
I had no problem at all with the SW sequels or the animated series. It's his world, he organized those elements and determined what could and could not happen there. So I was never upset that he went off on a tangent. And I think, as a visual artist, he's the best in the world right now, but like Tolkien's text, it takes an enormous amount of effort to get past the surface and really see what he's doing; but it's brilliant. As a dramatist....I plead the fifth!

TH, on the other hand...we already know what is supposed to happen.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


DanielLB
Latrommi


Oct 29 2012, 9:06am


Views: 925
Spoilers from the Visual Companion

I've only been able to flick through the pictures. It contains few new pictures. The only new ones I noticed were of Radagast (with bird nest), goblins (the goblin scribe seems to have no legs?), and orcs (similar to Bolg, but also similar to LOTR orcs).

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DanielLB
Latrommi


Oct 29 2012, 9:11am


Views: 853
The 3 trolls are

Bert - Mark Hadlow
William - Peter Hambleton
Tom - William Kircher

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Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Oct 29 2012, 9:29am


Views: 853
Glad you've got your books now!

Seems the release of images is being very tightly controlled...

(btw, I did post about the trolls in the very first post of this thread! Wink)


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






Otaku-sempai
Latrommi


Oct 29 2012, 4:15pm


Views: 777
I think that you need to come to terms with the fact...

This is Peter Jackson's The Hobbit and not JRR Tolkien's book. It is an adaptation; there will be changes. Some alterations will work better on film, others (arguably) won't or will be seen as vandalizing the original work.

Tolkien's story is told very sparsely in places. Descriptions of characters are brief and the narrative moves quickly from one place to another, spending little time on establishing setting and supporting characters. A film has to show more of the physical environment. We need to see Thorin & Company interact with their surroundings more, which means invented characters that don't exist or aren't fleshed-out in the novel. Think of Tauriel that way and maybe you won't be quite so upset about her--depending on how she is used in the film(s).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Oct 29 2012, 4:23pm


Views: 769
Great

If you would be so kind, can you scan those? Smile


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Oct 29 2012, 4:25pm


Views: 772
Personally, I have come to terms with that

And expect nothing more. That should help me enjoy the Hobbit more than I did LOTR.

It is just a shame that Peter Jackson has such bad instincts when it comes to using the film medium to tell a good story. He's a sloppy director, with a muddled vision. There is no clarity whatsoever in his style.

But I am prepared for that.


Malveth
Llednevir

Oct 29 2012, 4:40pm


Views: 790
I have "come to terms"...

And I dislike what Mr. Jackson is doing.

"Tolkien's story is told very sparsely in places. Descriptions of characters are brief and the narrative moves quickly from one place to another, spending little time on establishing setting and supporting characters. A film has to show more of the physical environment. We need to see Thorin & Company interact with their surroundings more, which means invented characters that don't exist or aren't fleshed-out in the novel."

My advice to Jackson & Co.: If the book is so unsuitable for filming (which Tolkien warned of, anyway) why try to film it? Make up your own inane story and leave The Hobbit in peace.


Elenorflower
Rodnog


Oct 29 2012, 5:15pm


Views: 761
Got to disagree with you on that point.

''There is no clarity whatsoever in his style''.

I have always found PJ's style crystal clear, and very much unique.


DanielLB
Latrommi


Oct 29 2012, 7:37pm


Views: 767
Totally missed the Troll news

Blush

Will be sitting down properly tonight to have a read. First impressions are that they are both fantastic. A must buy, in my opinion (despite the lack of new pictures).

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AinurOlorin
Nevle-flah


Oct 29 2012, 8:09pm


Views: 751
Is Thranduil still in the visual companion?

Or has he been removed.

In Reply To
I've only been able to flick through the pictures. It contains few new pictures. The only new ones I noticed were of Radagast (with bird nest), goblins (the goblin scribe seems to have no legs?), and orcs (similar to Bolg, but also similar to LOTR orcs).


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


DanielLB
Latrommi


Oct 29 2012, 8:48pm


Views: 742
No mention of any Mirkwood elves /

 

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Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Oct 30 2012, 12:32am


Views: 688
I agree with you

 it is crystal clear but sometimes its like looking thru the wrong window. Perfectly clear but your looking in the wrong direction WinkAngelicWink just MY opinion though so i guess its basically worthless Crazy


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Oct 30 2012, 12:33am)


Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Oct 30 2012, 12:35am


Views: 811
Great to finally hear who is voicing them

now if we only knew if it were Gandalf going to get the arguing and keep them busy until dawn... one can only hopeSmile


DanielLB
Latrommi


Oct 30 2012, 10:57am


Views: 764
My little theory was that Ian McKellen would voice them

Since he has to replicate their voices. I always imagined that if McKellen could do 3 different voices, then it would be more believable, than seeing him voice words, but having other actor's voices over the top.

I hope it works. Unsure

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Elenorflower
Rodnog


Oct 30 2012, 12:32pm


Views: 761
Sinister through the Looking Glass

'He's dreaming now,' said Tweedledee: 'and what do you think he's dreaming about?'
Sinister said 'Nobody can guess that.'
'Why, about you!' Tweedledee exclaimed, clapping his hands triumphantly. 'And if PJ left off dreaming about you, where do you suppose you'd be?'
'Where I am now, of course,' said Sinister.
'Not you!' Tweedledee retorted contemptuously. 'You'd be nowhere. Why, you're only a sort of thing in his dream!'
'If that there PJ was to wake,' added Tweedledum, 'you'd go out — bang! — just like a candle!'
'I shouldn't!' Sinister exclaimed indignantly. 'Besides, if I'm only a sort of thing in his dream, what are you, I should like to know?'
'Ditto' said Tweedledum.
'Ditto, ditto!' cried Tweedledee
He shouted this so loud that Sinister couldn't help saying, 'Hush! You'll be waking him, I'm afraid, if you make so much noise.'
'Well, it no use your talking about waking him,' said Tweedledum, 'when you're only one of the things in his dream. You know very well you're not real.'
'I am real!' said Sinister and began to cry.
'You won't make yourself a bit realler by crying,' Tweedledee remarked: 'there's nothing to cry about.'
'If I wasn't real,' Sinister said — half-laughing through his tears, it all seemed so ridiculous — 'I shouldn't be able to cry.'
'I hope you don't suppose those are real tears?' Tweedledum interrupted in a tone of great contempt.
'I know they're talking nonsense,' Sinister thought to himself: 'and it's foolish to cry about it.' So he brushed away his tears, and went on as cheerfully as he could.


Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Oct 30 2012, 2:06pm


Views: 786
Further spoilers

I did spot two other spoilers in the Sibley guide - well, one definite one regarding the troll scene, the other in the interview with Barry Humphries which just could have been Humphries' joking around. If not, it's yet another example of PJ's toilet humour and is going to have many throwing up ther hands in disgust...

Which is why I haven't revealed it as yet. I'd like to see what you reckon on it first, DLB!


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Oct 30 2012, 4:02pm


Views: 761
The various interview that have been emerging lately

Have convinced me that there will be lots of toilet and gross-out humor in the films, and that they will ultimately be a lot worse than I was expecting. My enthusiasm for the films is at an all-time low.


DanielLB
Latrommi


Oct 30 2012, 6:24pm


Views: 747
Hmmm ... I don't like the sound of the Great Goblin spoiler

And I can't imagine others will either. It's Radagast's beard all over again ...

What's the page number for the other one? I haven't read it properly yet.
Smile

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Captain Salt
Aessere Lot


Oct 30 2012, 6:45pm


Views: 774
What Great Goblin spoiler? Are his pustules constantly popping/oozing or something? //

 

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Captain Salt
Aessere Lot


Oct 30 2012, 6:52pm


Views: 734
Next Tuesday seems so far away... //

 

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


DanielLB
Latrommi


Oct 30 2012, 7:11pm


Views: 726
You're not far off! /

 

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Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Oct 30 2012, 7:19pm


Views: 749
p123, Interview with Bifur...

It's only a minor thing, but I don't remember it happening in the book!


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






DanielLB
Latrommi


Oct 30 2012, 8:31pm


Views: 744
There's a picture of that in the visual companion! /

 

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Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Oct 30 2012, 8:37pm


Views: 721
I'm not quite sure I understand

Why these spoilers are being cryptically referred to, yet not revealed?

The book is not available on this side of the pond yet. So please, do tell what you've read about Bifur and the Great Goblin! Smile


Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Oct 30 2012, 8:37pm


Views: 717
Well then...

I'll let you do the honours and reveal the spoilers! Smile

(Mind you, surely it has significant impact on how the scene plays out in the book? As in, how can Gandalf start the argument over the best way to cook the Dwarves?)


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






(This post was edited by Eleniel on Oct 30 2012, 8:41pm)


DanielLB
Latrommi


Oct 30 2012, 9:16pm


Views: 732
It's rare I know something that others do not!

Let me enjoy myself for a little longer.Wink

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DanielLB
Latrommi


Oct 30 2012, 9:19pm


Views: 718
I'm using an iPhone so ill keep it short and sweet

The spoilers are:

The Goblin kings throne is also a toilet - there is a hole in it so he can do his business

The 3 Trolls tie up a number of the Dwarves and spit roast them.

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Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Oct 30 2012, 10:06pm


Views: 761
Sorry, SA...

I wanted a second opinion on the Great Goblin because it's hard to be sure it's not a wind-up...

Here's the quote from the interview with Barry Humphries in the Sibley Official Movie Guide:


Quote
Of the throne itself, Barry notes: "Theres a hole in the seat, so it is both a throne and a toilet. The Goblin King is, among other things, grossly incontinent so if he hears the call of nature it doesn't need to interrupt his conversation and, from time to time, a beautifully crafted urn beneath the throne receives a compliment of matter from the Goblin King, generally speaking of ill-digested Dwarf."



Bonus spoiler: Barry also goes on to say that he was particularly gratified to discover that the Great Goblin has a song to sing:


Quote
"I'm convinced that it will be a huge hit," he says. "It will top the charts, as the young folk would express it. It could even go platinum. It is a song of extreme aggression: a hate-filled number, which the children will enjoy and senior citizens will appreciate. It's entirely about destruction, death and torture. But I try to do it in a sympathetic way. I've tried, as a matter of fact, to bring out the loveable side of my character - although this attempt has been a total failure."



Since the whole tone of the interview is conducted in this vein, I leave it up to our esteemed members to decide whether Mr Humphries is pulling anyone's leg here... Angelic


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






dave_lf
Rodnog

Oct 30 2012, 10:46pm


Views: 711
Psychic?


In Reply To
Have convinced me that there will be lots of toilet humor


Ha ha ha!


Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Oct 31 2012, 1:28am


Views: 685
Oh I really hope the Goblins DON"T sing

bad, bad, Awfully terribly horribly bad idea IMOCrazyMadUnsure

That's one rumor I surely hope is false and in jest


Lusitano
Aessere Lot


Oct 31 2012, 2:54am


Views: 741
smash whip crack

But ...they do sing in the novel.


Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Oct 31 2012, 2:58am


Views: 672
I'm not a total purist

LOL... Besides I think it takes away from the menacing appearance of the orcs/Goblins IMO. Angelic So that's a change I can live with non singing orcs/goblins


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Oct 31 2012, 3:34am


Views: 684
Perfectly consistent with PJ's tendency to paint a Mona Lisa

And then throw crap all over it!

Here, we have what is to my mind some wonderful news that the goblins will, in fact, sing. Followed by some truly atrocious news that the Great Goblin will (poop) and talk at the same time.

To be perfectly honest, I am not surprised in the least! With Peter Jackson, you usually get both music and feces! Smile


(This post was edited by Ataahua on Oct 31 2012, 6:46pm)


DanielLB
Latrommi


Oct 31 2012, 7:56am


Views: 656
Let's hope it is edited out! /

 

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DanielLB
Latrommi


Oct 31 2012, 7:57am


Views: 672
I think he's being truthful about both spoilers

But probably exaggerating them slightly. I think it will be interesting to hear the Great Goblin sing, especially if it is "Snap! Clap! The black crack" song.

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dave_lf
Rodnog

Oct 31 2012, 12:43pm


Views: 669
"Snap! Clap! The black crack"

(which may take on an entirely different meaning)


Fardragon
NahoR

Oct 31 2012, 1:18pm


Views: 634
Plop! Slop!

 

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


DanielLB
Latrommi


Oct 31 2012, 2:16pm


Views: 704
Goes the brown log.

Oh dear lord.

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Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Oct 31 2012, 2:41pm


Views: 691
It's a good job....

...that this thread is now on the 3rd page... Wink


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






Lusitano
Aessere Lot


Oct 31 2012, 2:46pm


Views: 687
The Great Poop

I was always interested in the Goblins and Orcs's hygiene, sanitary and medicinal life. Sly


DanielLB
Latrommi


Oct 31 2012, 7:55pm


Views: 677
As soon as people see this scene, there will be poo puns aplenty! /

 

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Captain Salt
Aessere Lot


Oct 31 2012, 8:07pm


Views: 681
I've actually discussed with people what Orcs do when they have to relieve themselves...

And the consensus was that they probably just stop wherever they are and have a bit of a peep/poop.

I'm surprised PJ didn't give us pooping Orcs at Pelennor Fields, actually...now THAT would have been terrifying! Crazy Tongue

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


DanielLB
Latrommi


Nov 1 2012, 9:17am


Views: 659
It would've been the same for the Fellowship as well

Say, all Sauron would've need is a sniffer dog! He could have traced Sam and Frodo from their poo!

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Oin K
Llednevir


Nov 5 2012, 10:07pm


Views: 647
Buy the rights to it and you can do whatever you want with it. That's why they're called "rights"

;)

"The Naugrim were ever, as they still remain, short and squat in stature; they were deep-breasted, strong in the arm, and stout in the leg, and their snouts were long. Indeed this strangeness they have that no Man nor Elf has ever seen a snoutless Dwarf - unless he were rhinoplasted in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame than of many other hurts that to us would seem more deadly. For the Naugrim have snouts from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike..." (History of Middle Earth, volume 11, The War of the Truffles, p. 205)